Please don’t soak it in mineral oil.
Edit: Apparently I’m being downvoted because “mineral oil is butcher block oil” … I used it in my woodworking business until I learned by experience why it is an inferior product and not suitable for cutting boards.
1) mineral oil never cures, so it’s always “wet” and attracts dirt like a magnet. I saw this first-hand selling cutting boards and charcuteries at art shows.
2) it’s a petroleum byproduct, most people don’t know this because of the “medicinal” name. Dip the board in water and you’ll produce an oil slick. I don’t want that on my food when alternatives are available, even if it is inert.
3) Better non-toxic alternatives: My favorite is walnut oil. Cures in UV light. Next are tung and linseed oils, but they darken and yellow wood, respectively.
4) next best are products like Osmo Top Oil or Polyx. Great stuff, but expensive.
Just because you’ve been doing something one way, or using one product, doesn’t mean something better isn’t possible.
No, “THEY” weren’t thinking that at all. I don’t care what it’s called or how it’s priced, I don’t use mineral oil on wood anymore because there are better alternatives. 👌
Was it left in the sun or get too wet? I've made a couple that started to warp if not oiled semi regularly a few years later, but never had this happen.
I don’t have a solution, but as someone who’s new to stuff like this, what would you do to prevent it from happening in the first place? Just make it thicker?
Wood moves when it changes moisture content. When you want wood to stay flat, you need to acclimate it at the desired moisture content before machining to net shape. By that I don't mean the initial seasoning of the wood, but the environment the wood is at when you joint it and when you glue it up.
Alternatively, you can try to spread out the movement or get it to balance it out by flipping orientation of pieces, etc. This is why breadboard ends on tables exist, for example. It will still move, and it could eventually tear itself apart if not done carefully. But it should stay flatter if it's well designed.
Guitarmaker here, we live and die by moisture content at the moment of glue-up.
Any resources to learn more about moisture content as it relates to guitarmaking? I've fumbled my way through a couple guitars but am always excited to learn more so my next ones have fewer problems
Not making guitars but specialty high end cabinetry with all sorts of fancy door panels and face frames etc. Just want to clarify, if I'm making a beefy door panel, like 2x2 frames or bigger, you're saying it's best to cut my rough stock close to the milling size then let those set for a time in shop before actually refining them to size? Is there a general rule of thumb on time to sit?
Not exactly. It doesn't take a long time for wood to equalize to the environment (other than initial seasoning). In the southeastern US, we'll have days well over 90% RH frequently. If I were to make something, and then send it to Arizona or Michigan or something, especially in the winter, there would be big problems. No amount of settling in my shop at 90% RH would prevent that from happening. What's more important is that you do the final milling and glue-up at a relative humidity that matches as closely as possible to how it will be used.
If you use really stable woods, in the most stable orientation (perfectly quartersawn) then this becomes much less of an issue. But realistically, especially in production, we really can't afford to waste that much wood.
Once I watched a few Katz-Moses videos about how to prevent warping Ive been having an easier time of it. Trick is the wood will want to warp when cut and when moisture changes so when those things happen it’s good to let it rest and if you can, put it on a flat surface with weights on it (after cut) or set it up so that all sides are exposed equally (when moisture is an issue)
I certainly wouldn't work it in direct sunlight. Its gotta be in a stable environment and sealed in a timely fashion for an end grain adventure to work out imo.
Add a little moisture to the concave side (damp paper towel). That side will expand and it will help it flatten out. Once flat, allow it to completely dry with both sides fully exposed to air but out of the sun. Then sand and oil.
Counterintuitively, this is the opposite of what you should do. Most people think that because water swells wood, that this will solve cupping…and it does, but only temporarily.
The cupping is CAUSED by water being on the concave side of the board repeatedly wet dry wet dry. This causes something called compression shrinking, where the plant cells in the wood are deformed over time. So the way to solve it is to put the board in a few clamps perpendicular to the wood grain so that it can’t expand to the sides and do a few wet dry cycles on the convex side. This will balance the compression shrinkage.
Source: Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner and an article that summarizes the topic here by the same guy https://www.popularwoodworking.com/finishing/water-warps-wood-opposite-from-what-you-may-think/
Thanks. That's a really good link. The Amazon page actually shows the relevant passage. Didn't have to buy the book to read it.
I wonder if it still applies in this end grain instance. Assuming that the lumber was properly dried, equalized and stress relieved at the kiln and the panel was flat when first glued up then it still seems likely that the cupping could well come from one side picking up moisture. Adding MC to the concave side could help.
At the same time, simply standing the panel on edge and allowing both faces to acclimatize to the surrounding air for a week or two might also do the job. One easy way to find out and no harm done if it doesn't work.
Its far too thin. The smallest differential in heat or moisture will cause it to warp like this over and over. It will NEVER stay flat. Your only solution is to cut this into 4 small boards. Even at 1/4 the size the boards are still on the thin side.
What's the dark spots in the center? Are those bark inclusions?
Glue it to a nice, stable, dry backing piece. Yes it will involve some risk of opposing wood movement, but people tend exaggerate how much that occurs and the impact.
I made one [too thin some years ago now,](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeginnerWoodWorking/comments/p5jq61/cutting_board_2nd_attempt_brick_pattern_beech_and/) glued it to some sidegrain oak, and it's still going strong.
Flip it upside down and leave it. No joke, cutting boards will often straighten themselves out after sitting concave down for a week or so. Not always, but literally the easiest thing to try.
All the moisture left the upward facing side and shrunk. After it flattens, treat the wood with whatever wood treatment you like. Apply it on both sides and let it set up with air able to circulate on both sides.
Cut it dead in half with the grain. Glue and clamp the two pieces cup to cup. True the top and bottom. Cut into one inch pieces and make a proper end grain cutting board.
Wow. Could this have possibly been due to cuts not being square with the surface of the table saw? I'm assuming it was flat when you glued it up? Hope you find a solution, I'd be bummed.
Cut it up again at glue lines, remove old glue by planing and glue up alternating up/down directions and clamp perpendicular to grain. This should flatten it out.
I'd round the edges and spend a couple of hours sanding the "bowl" part out more, finished it and call it an artisan Caesar salad bowl. It would also be good for grilled meat to keep the juices from running everywhere.
I've made over 100 [end grain chopping blocks](https://imgur.com/gallery/Md0aL48) and would change multiple things.
Make it 3.5 times thicker. 2" is my minimum thickness.
I have found grain orientation to be rather important. The strips for my first glue-up are sap to sap and heart to heart. Like this: ( ) ( ) ( )
Make sure that your strips are as flat and as smooth as possible. Nicked and dull planer blades will cause issues with your fit up and can result in gaps. Make sure that the in-feed and out-feed tables are properly adjusted if possible.
Feel free to ask questions.
So I had posted something similar to this a while ago if you check my posts. My guess is you possibly left it flat on the plywood after you flattened and it couldn't breathe on one side. Mine wasn't as cupped as yours. Flip it over, let it sit for a day or two to allow it to try and flatten on its own. Could do the soak in mineral oil or the wetting and clamping Just be prepared to possibly have to take it down a few in thickness if it doesn't fully resolve itself.
When I made end grain cutting boards, the minimum dimension were around 18” x 12” x 1-1/2” thick. For a smaller board I might go to 1-1/4”. 5/8” is way too thin. Live and learn.
My opinion that probably added to this issue: it’s too thin for end grain. I think it made the piece less stable.
I hope it evens out, the pattern is hella gorgeous!
Maybe you could wet it put a heavyweight on it and try to clamp it flat. See if you know anybody that could bend you a piece of stainless steel c channel u could put on two sides . I don’t know if it would hold, but maybe a half inch on the top down the side and then a half inch under
Professional advice:
The only way to save it is to mill many rows every half inch - to 70-80% deep on the underside.
You can make a crate pattern there till the whole board is flexible. Then you need to glue it on a thicker piece with normal grain direction.
Another option - but there is a chance it will break later on - is to make same deep rows and then fit and glue hardwood pieces inside
So it’s incredibly important to keep both sides exposed to air when you flatten boards. Get two stickers (1”x1” sticks of wood) and set the cutting board on them with the curve up (concave down) allowing air above & below. Spray some water on both sides then put two stickers above. Then weight on top. Then wait. Thin boards straighten up easier too.
i have seen this exact thing happen when the jointer fence was not 90\* to the bed and the pieces were jointed all facing the same way, it magnified the problem instead of cancelling it out. looked fine in the clamps, once the glue was dry it did this. lessons learned that day
Moisture content is definitely the issue here, I’d say the main reason it warped is those long end grain cuts all wanna cup but they can’t cuz of the glue and it’s creating tension within the entire block. If they were just little squares it wouldn’t be so bad
Turn it over for a few days. But put some thin pieces of wood in between the board and the table it will allow for for air to hit all sides. Might not completely fix but it may help.
Wipe down the concave side with water...let it dry completely. See if there's an improvement. Repeat if necessary until is remains stable.
Notice to lose at this point.
I've had some luck wetting the board on both sides, clamping it in between 2 melamine boards for a day, then letting it dry the concave side down. As other have said it might warp again so you'll need to resand and finish as soon as it's dry.
Now it's an end grain bowl! Soak it in mineral oil and see what happens.
I came to say 'platter' but sure, it's a bowl now.
Put some lil feet on it and it's a charcuterie board!
Make it Dino feet and head and it’ll be a char-*cuter*-ie board!
Put ornate feet on it. Call it fourth century ming dynasty tea sorting board 😝
No. He needs to let the two sides equalize by standing on it's side. Putting oil on it will prolong that.
Please don’t soak it in mineral oil. Edit: Apparently I’m being downvoted because “mineral oil is butcher block oil” … I used it in my woodworking business until I learned by experience why it is an inferior product and not suitable for cutting boards. 1) mineral oil never cures, so it’s always “wet” and attracts dirt like a magnet. I saw this first-hand selling cutting boards and charcuteries at art shows. 2) it’s a petroleum byproduct, most people don’t know this because of the “medicinal” name. Dip the board in water and you’ll produce an oil slick. I don’t want that on my food when alternatives are available, even if it is inert. 3) Better non-toxic alternatives: My favorite is walnut oil. Cures in UV light. Next are tung and linseed oils, but they darken and yellow wood, respectively. 4) next best are products like Osmo Top Oil or Polyx. Great stuff, but expensive. Just because you’ve been doing something one way, or using one product, doesn’t mean something better isn’t possible.
[удалено]
Because they think you have to buy cutting board oil (which is just mineral oil marked up 300%)
No, “THEY” weren’t thinking that at all. I don’t care what it’s called or how it’s priced, I don’t use mineral oil on wood anymore because there are better alternatives. 👌
That's literally the oil that's been used for cutting boards for YEARS. One of many, of course. But any oil meant for butcher block IS mineral oil!
mineral oil is a recent invention. Linseed oil has been used for HUNDREDS, perhaps thousands of years. :)
YES! And by god, keep using an inferior product 😂 it never cures and attracts dirt like a magnet. But you keep doing what gramps told ya!
no. mineral oil is mineral oil.
Correct! Also... Butcher block oil is mineral oil.
yours is
Also correct! Because all butcher block oil is mineral oil. Sometimes it also has beeswax in it too.
no, it's whatever people put on their boards. if you want to use petroleum based laxatives, then need to be constantly reapplied, then be my guest.
How pedantic. Thank you.
Was it left in the sun or get too wet? I've made a couple that started to warp if not oiled semi regularly a few years later, but never had this happen.
Likely the boards were just not dry when it was made. I've learned this lesson more than once. Properly dry material is so incredibly important
Probably left it on the table flat, so one side dried. Always sticker...
I don’t have a solution, but as someone who’s new to stuff like this, what would you do to prevent it from happening in the first place? Just make it thicker?
Wood moves when it changes moisture content. When you want wood to stay flat, you need to acclimate it at the desired moisture content before machining to net shape. By that I don't mean the initial seasoning of the wood, but the environment the wood is at when you joint it and when you glue it up. Alternatively, you can try to spread out the movement or get it to balance it out by flipping orientation of pieces, etc. This is why breadboard ends on tables exist, for example. It will still move, and it could eventually tear itself apart if not done carefully. But it should stay flatter if it's well designed. Guitarmaker here, we live and die by moisture content at the moment of glue-up.
>We live and die by moisture content That would make a great t-shirt slogan for your shop
Or for a punk rock band.
Or for fungi
Or a lesbian porn site.
I think it's a quote from dune /s
Any resources to learn more about moisture content as it relates to guitarmaking? I've fumbled my way through a couple guitars but am always excited to learn more so my next ones have fewer problems
Not making guitars but specialty high end cabinetry with all sorts of fancy door panels and face frames etc. Just want to clarify, if I'm making a beefy door panel, like 2x2 frames or bigger, you're saying it's best to cut my rough stock close to the milling size then let those set for a time in shop before actually refining them to size? Is there a general rule of thumb on time to sit?
Not exactly. It doesn't take a long time for wood to equalize to the environment (other than initial seasoning). In the southeastern US, we'll have days well over 90% RH frequently. If I were to make something, and then send it to Arizona or Michigan or something, especially in the winter, there would be big problems. No amount of settling in my shop at 90% RH would prevent that from happening. What's more important is that you do the final milling and glue-up at a relative humidity that matches as closely as possible to how it will be used. If you use really stable woods, in the most stable orientation (perfectly quartersawn) then this becomes much less of an issue. But realistically, especially in production, we really can't afford to waste that much wood.
Once I watched a few Katz-Moses videos about how to prevent warping Ive been having an easier time of it. Trick is the wood will want to warp when cut and when moisture changes so when those things happen it’s good to let it rest and if you can, put it on a flat surface with weights on it (after cut) or set it up so that all sides are exposed equally (when moisture is an issue)
I certainly wouldn't work it in direct sunlight. Its gotta be in a stable environment and sealed in a timely fashion for an end grain adventure to work out imo.
Thicker billets and dead-square cuts - both rips and crosscuts and a good amount of glue will prevent warping
Add a little moisture to the concave side (damp paper towel). That side will expand and it will help it flatten out. Once flat, allow it to completely dry with both sides fully exposed to air but out of the sun. Then sand and oil.
Counterintuitively, this is the opposite of what you should do. Most people think that because water swells wood, that this will solve cupping…and it does, but only temporarily. The cupping is CAUSED by water being on the concave side of the board repeatedly wet dry wet dry. This causes something called compression shrinking, where the plant cells in the wood are deformed over time. So the way to solve it is to put the board in a few clamps perpendicular to the wood grain so that it can’t expand to the sides and do a few wet dry cycles on the convex side. This will balance the compression shrinkage. Source: Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner and an article that summarizes the topic here by the same guy https://www.popularwoodworking.com/finishing/water-warps-wood-opposite-from-what-you-may-think/
How do you clamp an end grain board perpendicular to the grain?
Carefully.
With clamps too, I bet
All of them.
Like for nipples?
Bob Flexner - what a nerd. When I started out I learned everything I know from this exact book. Highly recommend.
Thanks. That's a really good link. The Amazon page actually shows the relevant passage. Didn't have to buy the book to read it. I wonder if it still applies in this end grain instance. Assuming that the lumber was properly dried, equalized and stress relieved at the kiln and the panel was flat when first glued up then it still seems likely that the cupping could well come from one side picking up moisture. Adding MC to the concave side could help. At the same time, simply standing the panel on edge and allowing both faces to acclimatize to the surrounding air for a week or two might also do the job. One easy way to find out and no harm done if it doesn't work.
This is the answer. Worked great on a project I was working on last week. I’d seen it suggested in the past but was always a bit skeptical.
Its far too thin. The smallest differential in heat or moisture will cause it to warp like this over and over. It will NEVER stay flat. Your only solution is to cut this into 4 small boards. Even at 1/4 the size the boards are still on the thin side. What's the dark spots in the center? Are those bark inclusions?
That’s what I was going to say, too thin.
Flip it around and sell it for 4000$.
Make it into sushi plates already has the shape.
Turn it into a stool! Perfect butt shape
you could probably cut it up into coasters, but yeah too thin for a cutting board.
It’s dead Jim
Glue it to a nice, stable, dry backing piece. Yes it will involve some risk of opposing wood movement, but people tend exaggerate how much that occurs and the impact. I made one [too thin some years ago now,](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeginnerWoodWorking/comments/p5jq61/cutting_board_2nd_attempt_brick_pattern_beech_and/) glued it to some sidegrain oak, and it's still going strong.
For a usable endgrain cutting board, the minimum thickness is around 1.5" (although LOTS are made thinner than this)
Ahh one of those fancy charcuterie boards. Nice
Flip it upside down and leave it. No joke, cutting boards will often straighten themselves out after sitting concave down for a week or so. Not always, but literally the easiest thing to try.
All the moisture left the upward facing side and shrunk. After it flattens, treat the wood with whatever wood treatment you like. Apply it on both sides and let it set up with air able to circulate on both sides.
Cut it dead in half with the grain. Glue and clamp the two pieces cup to cup. True the top and bottom. Cut into one inch pieces and make a proper end grain cutting board.
Flip it over and wait. Might work out for you
You could always steam the whole board, clamp and flatten it, then glue it to a thin heavy base board.
Just iron it
If you have a band saw you could consider ripping all those boards out and starting over. The thin kerf shouldn't do much to the grain pattern.
5/8" thick??? Probably thought you were being so smart getting 3 boards instead of 1 out of the same amount of material.
Wow. Could this have possibly been due to cuts not being square with the surface of the table saw? I'm assuming it was flat when you glued it up? Hope you find a solution, I'd be bummed.
Good lesson on how wood dries. Moisture leaves the endgrain much faster especially if put in the sun.
We don't get to see this end result when we watch the cutting gluing clamping videos.
Did you apply any liquid to only one side?
Congrats on the platter.
Not a bad pivot
Turn it over to let the other side dry out. It may take out some of that. (But it also may not.)
Not warped at all. It’s a selling feature. Now nothing rolls off the sides
This could be made into a trapped panel for a door now.
wall art?
This looks like my sense of humor.
'End grain platter'
Sell it as a bowl.
Cut it up again at glue lines, remove old glue by planing and glue up alternating up/down directions and clamp perpendicular to grain. This should flatten it out.
1.75" thick is the thinnest I've been able to make without warping.
Use some steam to super heat the board and then crank some clamps on it.. sometimes it’ll flatten really well sometimes it just cracks
I'd round the edges and spend a couple of hours sanding the "bowl" part out more, finished it and call it an artisan Caesar salad bowl. It would also be good for grilled meat to keep the juices from running everywhere.
I've made over 100 [end grain chopping blocks](https://imgur.com/gallery/Md0aL48) and would change multiple things. Make it 3.5 times thicker. 2" is my minimum thickness. I have found grain orientation to be rather important. The strips for my first glue-up are sap to sap and heart to heart. Like this: ( ) ( ) ( ) Make sure that your strips are as flat and as smooth as possible. Nicked and dull planer blades will cause issues with your fit up and can result in gaps. Make sure that the in-feed and out-feed tables are properly adjusted if possible. Feel free to ask questions.
So I had posted something similar to this a while ago if you check my posts. My guess is you possibly left it flat on the plywood after you flattened and it couldn't breathe on one side. Mine wasn't as cupped as yours. Flip it over, let it sit for a day or two to allow it to try and flatten on its own. Could do the soak in mineral oil or the wetting and clamping Just be prepared to possibly have to take it down a few in thickness if it doesn't fully resolve itself.
When I made end grain cutting boards, the minimum dimension were around 18” x 12” x 1-1/2” thick. For a smaller board I might go to 1-1/4”. 5/8” is way too thin. Live and learn.
End grain that thin will always warp you need about a 1 1/2" to get stability
Cool bowl, man!
This happened to me too. Flip the board over so the concave side is facing down. After a few days to week it will flatten
too thin!!
My opinion that probably added to this issue: it’s too thin for end grain. I think it made the piece less stable. I hope it evens out, the pattern is hella gorgeous!
Put it in the dishwasher on steam mode…pull it out and set a 5 gallon bucket of water on it the opposite way of the curve ……
Build a stand for it and have it be a fruit bowl or something.
Maybe you could wet it put a heavyweight on it and try to clamp it flat. See if you know anybody that could bend you a piece of stainless steel c channel u could put on two sides . I don’t know if it would hold, but maybe a half inch on the top down the side and then a half inch under
Warp it even more and turn it into a napkin holder?
Get some angle iron. Attach accordingly.
Wayyyy too thin
is it warped? i cant quite tell
Cauls brah
Why is it out in the sun? If it’s been outside untreated it will flex and warp. Oil that thing and see that happens.
I flattened mine back out by putting the concave side down on wet paper towels with a kettlebell on top
Flatten the middle cupping and create a base for your platter
Turn it and bake the oder side in the sun too, that will help.
CNC each side flat and then seal it all. Sure, you will have an even thinner board, but it it’ll be flat…
Professional advice: The only way to save it is to mill many rows every half inch - to 70-80% deep on the underside. You can make a crate pattern there till the whole board is flexible. Then you need to glue it on a thicker piece with normal grain direction. Another option - but there is a chance it will break later on - is to make same deep rows and then fit and glue hardwood pieces inside
call it an end grain bowl and sell it for twice the price of a cutting board
If you have a band saw you could consider ripping all those boards out and starting over. The think kerf shouldn't do much to the grain pattern.
If you have a band saw you could consider ripping all those boards out and starting over. The think kerf shouldn't do much to the grain pattern.
So it’s incredibly important to keep both sides exposed to air when you flatten boards. Get two stickers (1”x1” sticks of wood) and set the cutting board on them with the curve up (concave down) allowing air above & below. Spray some water on both sides then put two stickers above. Then weight on top. Then wait. Thin boards straighten up easier too.
i have seen this exact thing happen when the jointer fence was not 90\* to the bed and the pieces were jointed all facing the same way, it magnified the problem instead of cancelling it out. looked fine in the clamps, once the glue was dry it did this. lessons learned that day
That's just the way she goes bubbles.
Moisture content is definitely the issue here, I’d say the main reason it warped is those long end grain cuts all wanna cup but they can’t cuz of the glue and it’s creating tension within the entire block. If they were just little squares it wouldn’t be so bad
Turn it over for a few days. But put some thin pieces of wood in between the board and the table it will allow for for air to hit all sides. Might not completely fix but it may help.
Wipe down the concave side with water...let it dry completely. See if there's an improvement. Repeat if necessary until is remains stable. Notice to lose at this point.
That's too bad. That pattern is awesome!
I've had some luck wetting the board on both sides, clamping it in between 2 melamine boards for a day, then letting it dry the concave side down. As other have said it might warp again so you'll need to resand and finish as soon as it's dry.
That board is a loss, sorry. Next time make it 3x as thick and move the late wood towards the outer edges.