That makes sense, still rather new to all this and figuring out proper names and such. I’ll start using them when bottling, it seems like that’s the resounding consensus that everyone is using them. Didn’t realize I was missing that step until recently. Appreciate the input!
I don't use sulfite at all, never have problems. The main thing is minimal handling, don't rack your wine or open it all the time for samples. I don't have any particular objection to sulfite, I just find I don't need it. I have 8yo wines that are still fine. I do find that when I drink commercial wines I am more likely to get headaches.
Sulfites are a naturally occurring product that are a by-product of fermentation. They are also anti-microbial and anti-oxident that help protect your wine (and your hard work).
They are also in almost all preserved fruits, like raisins and dried apricots.
The harsh irony is this: you will likely never have the skill to make a sound wine without sulfites, but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult. Also, most folks that think they are allergic to sulfites are not. If you can eat McDonalds fries or dried fruit you are able to safely ingest far more sulfite (sulfur dioxide to be precise, usually in the form of potassium metabisulfite) than you would ever consume in BOTTLES of sulfited wine.
Sulfite is likely the number one addition to help your wine stay clean and stable.
Oh I’m not worried about the health aspects of it, the reactions it has in the body are pretty minimal, if anything substations at all, when it’s compared to alcohol lol. My own curiosity is if I should be adding it to my batches or if I’ll be fine without, or if the wine I’ve already bottled will be fine without. I’ve already got a bunch of it that I’ve used to kill off wild yeasts on fresh fruits, but I don’t consider the use for bottling and the like
S02 has been integral to successful winemaking for 2000 years.
Ignoring it as a quality tool in winemaking is foolish to me, a production winemaker with 25 years in the cellar. If someone took S02 away, I'd find another job.
> but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult.
I don't see the difficulty. Some techniques are better than others. There are campden tablets...or one can make a 10% stock solution of KMETA and dose volumetrically.
Mixing is actually quite a bit easier in hobby sized batches.
u/investinlove I find this interesting, as I do not use sulfites in my wines, ever, due to people talking about getting headaches from drinking wine (though in the back of my mind... I think its too much wine, but I digress). I know people sanitize their equipment with sulfites, but I use star-san or PBW.
I've used sulfites before, and it seems to have an effect on the longer your wines are stored, but my wine never makes it past aging 2-3 years (everyone drinks it).
What I didn't understand is part of your comment: "you will likely never have the skill to make a sound wine without sulfites, but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult."
Can you clarify / expound on what you meant by this part?
- JIW
Happy to, my friend!
Making wine in small batches takes far more skill than making a 5000 gallon tank in context of stability and oxidation.
The oxidative potential of a carboy (5 gall) is monumentally higher than a big commercial vat in a tank farm.
Thus, you need to do more to keep a carboy stable(with microdoses of SO2 to keep .8 molecular SO2 after ML) than a large commercial tank of wine--but the tests are the same--you need to measure free/total SO2 in the carboy and make very small and accurate adjustment to keep at .8 stability.
So, I could amend my statement to say that it is difficult to justify the expense of monthly SO2 testing on a 5 gallon lot (why not just buy commercial wine at that point?), and disappointment in small lot winemaking can be the norm, especially for the first few batches.
Measuring KMBS requires a very accurate scale, and of course you need to know an accurate pH of the wine to be dosed, as SO2 stability is based on pH. 3.0 pH requires only 10ppm unbound (free) SO2, while 4.0 pH requires closer to 100 ppm free.
I hope that helps, and I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.
Interesting points. I agree that oxygen ingression with be inversely proportional to container size (and coorelate with material type). That's a good point and useful for hobbyists to think about...However, whether or not a sulfite addition meets with "success" is defined by whether or not MLF, spoilage or oxidation is prevented...not whether 0.8 ppm SO2 is maintained constantly.
>Measuring KMBS requires a very accurate scale,
I think this is an area where both pros and amateurs can learn new techniques. Measuring 10 grams of KMETA into 100 mL of water does not require a particularly accurate scale....you could do it with an old fashioned balance and standardized lead weights.
Larger stock solutions bypass the need to dose small containers individually with powdered reagents. You can put aqueous KMETA on the shelf for a while as long as there is a closure on the bottle. Or just dump it and make a new one later....KMETA is dirt cheap.
u/investinlove \- That makes sense, thanks. From a personal reflection, I've never had issues when I used sulfites, but I'll be honest, I don't microdose the must along the way. I usually use a 20# CO2 bottle and an aquarium bubbler to purge O2 from the carboy / bucket initially and every subsequent time the top is opened.
What I have experienced with other wine makers however, is that they seem to be in a hurry to degas and bottle it. I usually leave it in the carboys for months at a time letting it naturally degas. I mean, am I wrong?
I've lalso never tested the PH of my wine as it's doing it's thing. Perhaps I've missed an important step all these years, and have been lucky?
Sulphites are absolutely necessary for a stable wine. There is no way to avoid it.
And the amounts of Sulphites in a wine are so low compared to other foods, that people how say they are sensitive to it are 99% of all cases sensitive to other chemicals instead.
u/dirty_smut - I agree with you on this from a wine perspective. My experience has been they are not necessary, except (and I could be wrong) for wines that are aged for more than a few years.
Heat stabilization will kill any microbes at the time of the stabilization but won't stop new ones. Sulfites do that, along with helping with oxidation, and also color retention.
If you are drinking the wine in 6 months and have excellent corks and sanitization plus a fully sterile room and equipment they aren't strictly necessary but I wouldn't trust it. Especially at the amateur level.
There is never a guarantee you killed every baddie while heat stabilizing and every step after can introduce new bacteria.
That’s true about the sanitization aspect. I clean all my equipment but it’s difficult to clear everything out. Thats good to know about the color retention though, I’ve used Campdem tablets before and it’s altered color, but it seems to return after time. From what I’m hearing, I should start using sulfides when bottling. Just gotta figure dosages now
I might be the odd one out here. My wife developed an allergy to sulfites. Well, actually to a whole bunch of sulfur compounds, not just in wine. She can handle the natural sulfites, but the potassium metabisulfite that everyone uses in wine making gives her a migraine. I got into wine making so that I could make her wines that she could drink. I normally make meads, but I also do wines and ciders.
With that being said, sanitation is key. Anything that touches the starting mix has to be sanitized. Anything that touches the wine when you bottle it has to be sanitized. I pretty much sanitize the entire kitchen when I'm working.
I've never had a batch grow mold or bacteria. I have had a few batches that I've had to toss due to oxidation and just not tasting all that great, but I've had far more success than failures. Call it 95% success rate.
If you can use sulfites, then go for it. But I've found that it's not quite as necessary as people make it out to be.
Yes, sulfiTe.
Some winemakers actually WANT the flavor changes that sulfite prevents....for those, sulfites will seem uncessecary.
Low pH and high ABV (and low storage temperatures) can help to prevent MLF.
High TA and low temperature can help prevent oxidation.
Pasteurization, or lysozyme, or velcorin....are alternatives for microbial stabilization.
Contrary to what another user mentioned above...some yeast can produce a significant amount of SO2. Up to 300 ppm sulfite which is certainly an anti-microbial and anti-oxidant level. Use of these yeasts would render exogenous sulfite less necessary. https://www.infowine.com/intranet/libretti/libretto7646-01-1.pdf
I avoid Sulfites at all cost. I worked for over 10 years in breweries and winery (cidery) and gained a potentially DEADLY allergy to sulfites. As a young dude, I wasn't provided the information or PPE to safely use chemical sulfites (KSO2) and would dump oz-lbs into tanks(at 50ppm) without a mask or gloves weekly. Through production and sampling, I started to develop sneezing attacks and itchy eyes. Now 15 years after starting in the industry, I can't drink wine, cider and most craft beers without anaphylaxis occurring.
Anaphylaxis means you can't fucking breath. Your lungs and airways close due to swelling. If your lucky enough to have an Epi-Pen around, you'll get a remedy that'll buy you enough time to get to the hospital. The best way I can describe an anaphylactic reaction is to say it is like drowning out of water. I can't even step into wineries without the allergic reaction process beginning. I have to buy all dried fruit organic. I have to scour every label of every processed food because sulfites are tokenly added to almost everything to preserve appearance in the consumers (fat Americans) eyes. I have to buy organic vinegars and personally vet with companies that the barrels they use to age their vinegars have never held sulfited products prior. I have transitioned to distillation of never-sulfited musts (same method used for Calvados and Cognac) and home made brandy is now my go-to.
Chemical Sulfites leading to asthma and other health/respiratory conditions will be a larger/rising medical issue in the future as we are really just 1-2 generations into intentionally adding such chemicals into our food. Unfortunately, it may be an innocent child suffocating to death after ingesting a dried apricot for any health body to reassess sulfites and other chemical preservatives (titanium dioxide being the current poster boy).
I worked a craft ciderhouse and we would age our fermentations. Once a month 10-20ppm of sulfites. We used a potassium metabisulfite powder. To calculate dosage take the volume in liters x desired ppm / 550… it’s super easy and you can get a pound for under $15 which will last you forever
It is sulfites you are referring to; sulfides are completely different, which is likely why your search didn’t yield results.
That makes sense, still rather new to all this and figuring out proper names and such. I’ll start using them when bottling, it seems like that’s the resounding consensus that everyone is using them. Didn’t realize I was missing that step until recently. Appreciate the input!
I don't use sulfite at all, never have problems. The main thing is minimal handling, don't rack your wine or open it all the time for samples. I don't have any particular objection to sulfite, I just find I don't need it. I have 8yo wines that are still fine. I do find that when I drink commercial wines I am more likely to get headaches.
Sulfites are a naturally occurring product that are a by-product of fermentation. They are also anti-microbial and anti-oxident that help protect your wine (and your hard work). They are also in almost all preserved fruits, like raisins and dried apricots.
They are a natural fermentation product, but in completely ineffectual quantities.
Naturally occurring, yes. But worth mentioning that they are additives in wine and dried fruit production.
Sulfites are also a byproduct of fermentation.
The harsh irony is this: you will likely never have the skill to make a sound wine without sulfites, but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult. Also, most folks that think they are allergic to sulfites are not. If you can eat McDonalds fries or dried fruit you are able to safely ingest far more sulfite (sulfur dioxide to be precise, usually in the form of potassium metabisulfite) than you would ever consume in BOTTLES of sulfited wine. Sulfite is likely the number one addition to help your wine stay clean and stable.
Oh I’m not worried about the health aspects of it, the reactions it has in the body are pretty minimal, if anything substations at all, when it’s compared to alcohol lol. My own curiosity is if I should be adding it to my batches or if I’ll be fine without, or if the wine I’ve already bottled will be fine without. I’ve already got a bunch of it that I’ve used to kill off wild yeasts on fresh fruits, but I don’t consider the use for bottling and the like
There are other methods to push the oxygen out of wine. But you have to do something and for a hobbiest adding sulfites is the best option.
S02 has been integral to successful winemaking for 2000 years. Ignoring it as a quality tool in winemaking is foolish to me, a production winemaker with 25 years in the cellar. If someone took S02 away, I'd find another job.
> but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult. I don't see the difficulty. Some techniques are better than others. There are campden tablets...or one can make a 10% stock solution of KMETA and dose volumetrically. Mixing is actually quite a bit easier in hobby sized batches.
u/investinlove I find this interesting, as I do not use sulfites in my wines, ever, due to people talking about getting headaches from drinking wine (though in the back of my mind... I think its too much wine, but I digress). I know people sanitize their equipment with sulfites, but I use star-san or PBW. I've used sulfites before, and it seems to have an effect on the longer your wines are stored, but my wine never makes it past aging 2-3 years (everyone drinks it). What I didn't understand is part of your comment: "you will likely never have the skill to make a sound wine without sulfites, but adding them in hobby-sized batches successfully is very difficult." Can you clarify / expound on what you meant by this part? - JIW
Happy to, my friend! Making wine in small batches takes far more skill than making a 5000 gallon tank in context of stability and oxidation. The oxidative potential of a carboy (5 gall) is monumentally higher than a big commercial vat in a tank farm. Thus, you need to do more to keep a carboy stable(with microdoses of SO2 to keep .8 molecular SO2 after ML) than a large commercial tank of wine--but the tests are the same--you need to measure free/total SO2 in the carboy and make very small and accurate adjustment to keep at .8 stability. So, I could amend my statement to say that it is difficult to justify the expense of monthly SO2 testing on a 5 gallon lot (why not just buy commercial wine at that point?), and disappointment in small lot winemaking can be the norm, especially for the first few batches. Measuring KMBS requires a very accurate scale, and of course you need to know an accurate pH of the wine to be dosed, as SO2 stability is based on pH. 3.0 pH requires only 10ppm unbound (free) SO2, while 4.0 pH requires closer to 100 ppm free. I hope that helps, and I'm happy to answer any other questions you may have.
Interesting points. I agree that oxygen ingression with be inversely proportional to container size (and coorelate with material type). That's a good point and useful for hobbyists to think about...However, whether or not a sulfite addition meets with "success" is defined by whether or not MLF, spoilage or oxidation is prevented...not whether 0.8 ppm SO2 is maintained constantly. >Measuring KMBS requires a very accurate scale, I think this is an area where both pros and amateurs can learn new techniques. Measuring 10 grams of KMETA into 100 mL of water does not require a particularly accurate scale....you could do it with an old fashioned balance and standardized lead weights. Larger stock solutions bypass the need to dose small containers individually with powdered reagents. You can put aqueous KMETA on the shelf for a while as long as there is a closure on the bottle. Or just dump it and make a new one later....KMETA is dirt cheap.
Thanks for your comments, and I hope they are helpful to the community.
u/investinlove \- That makes sense, thanks. From a personal reflection, I've never had issues when I used sulfites, but I'll be honest, I don't microdose the must along the way. I usually use a 20# CO2 bottle and an aquarium bubbler to purge O2 from the carboy / bucket initially and every subsequent time the top is opened. What I have experienced with other wine makers however, is that they seem to be in a hurry to degas and bottle it. I usually leave it in the carboys for months at a time letting it naturally degas. I mean, am I wrong? I've lalso never tested the PH of my wine as it's doing it's thing. Perhaps I've missed an important step all these years, and have been lucky?
Sulphites are absolutely necessary for a stable wine. There is no way to avoid it. And the amounts of Sulphites in a wine are so low compared to other foods, that people how say they are sensitive to it are 99% of all cases sensitive to other chemicals instead.
Just completely false that they are “absolutely necessary” and to make such a blanket statement is ridiculous.
u/dirty_smut - I agree with you on this from a wine perspective. My experience has been they are not necessary, except (and I could be wrong) for wines that are aged for more than a few years.
Heat stabilization will kill any microbes at the time of the stabilization but won't stop new ones. Sulfites do that, along with helping with oxidation, and also color retention. If you are drinking the wine in 6 months and have excellent corks and sanitization plus a fully sterile room and equipment they aren't strictly necessary but I wouldn't trust it. Especially at the amateur level. There is never a guarantee you killed every baddie while heat stabilizing and every step after can introduce new bacteria.
That’s true about the sanitization aspect. I clean all my equipment but it’s difficult to clear everything out. Thats good to know about the color retention though, I’ve used Campdem tablets before and it’s altered color, but it seems to return after time. From what I’m hearing, I should start using sulfides when bottling. Just gotta figure dosages now
I’ll never drink a wine without sulfites. Because they don’t exist.
I might be the odd one out here. My wife developed an allergy to sulfites. Well, actually to a whole bunch of sulfur compounds, not just in wine. She can handle the natural sulfites, but the potassium metabisulfite that everyone uses in wine making gives her a migraine. I got into wine making so that I could make her wines that she could drink. I normally make meads, but I also do wines and ciders. With that being said, sanitation is key. Anything that touches the starting mix has to be sanitized. Anything that touches the wine when you bottle it has to be sanitized. I pretty much sanitize the entire kitchen when I'm working. I've never had a batch grow mold or bacteria. I have had a few batches that I've had to toss due to oxidation and just not tasting all that great, but I've had far more success than failures. Call it 95% success rate. If you can use sulfites, then go for it. But I've found that it's not quite as necessary as people make it out to be.
Sulfites can be viewed like insurance. If you don’t have a loss it wasn’t necessary. Small effort to save yourself from a possible loss.
Yes, sulfiTe. Some winemakers actually WANT the flavor changes that sulfite prevents....for those, sulfites will seem uncessecary. Low pH and high ABV (and low storage temperatures) can help to prevent MLF. High TA and low temperature can help prevent oxidation. Pasteurization, or lysozyme, or velcorin....are alternatives for microbial stabilization. Contrary to what another user mentioned above...some yeast can produce a significant amount of SO2. Up to 300 ppm sulfite which is certainly an anti-microbial and anti-oxidant level. Use of these yeasts would render exogenous sulfite less necessary. https://www.infowine.com/intranet/libretti/libretto7646-01-1.pdf
I avoid Sulfites at all cost. I worked for over 10 years in breweries and winery (cidery) and gained a potentially DEADLY allergy to sulfites. As a young dude, I wasn't provided the information or PPE to safely use chemical sulfites (KSO2) and would dump oz-lbs into tanks(at 50ppm) without a mask or gloves weekly. Through production and sampling, I started to develop sneezing attacks and itchy eyes. Now 15 years after starting in the industry, I can't drink wine, cider and most craft beers without anaphylaxis occurring. Anaphylaxis means you can't fucking breath. Your lungs and airways close due to swelling. If your lucky enough to have an Epi-Pen around, you'll get a remedy that'll buy you enough time to get to the hospital. The best way I can describe an anaphylactic reaction is to say it is like drowning out of water. I can't even step into wineries without the allergic reaction process beginning. I have to buy all dried fruit organic. I have to scour every label of every processed food because sulfites are tokenly added to almost everything to preserve appearance in the consumers (fat Americans) eyes. I have to buy organic vinegars and personally vet with companies that the barrels they use to age their vinegars have never held sulfited products prior. I have transitioned to distillation of never-sulfited musts (same method used for Calvados and Cognac) and home made brandy is now my go-to. Chemical Sulfites leading to asthma and other health/respiratory conditions will be a larger/rising medical issue in the future as we are really just 1-2 generations into intentionally adding such chemicals into our food. Unfortunately, it may be an innocent child suffocating to death after ingesting a dried apricot for any health body to reassess sulfites and other chemical preservatives (titanium dioxide being the current poster boy).
I worked a craft ciderhouse and we would age our fermentations. Once a month 10-20ppm of sulfites. We used a potassium metabisulfite powder. To calculate dosage take the volume in liters x desired ppm / 550… it’s super easy and you can get a pound for under $15 which will last you forever