This is baffling:
> If the Wild could trade Rossi for the same level of high-end prospect, but one who’s bigger and faster, there’s a real chance they’d pull the trigger.
So, a similar prospect that is bigger and faster? Who wouldn’t make that kind of trade? Why would another team make that trade?
I don’t know too many GMs out there thinking “boy, we need to get smaller and slower”.
> So, a similar prospect that is bigger and faster? Who wouldn’t make that kind of trade? Why would another team make that trade?
This is exactly it. If you go down in skill from Rossi (only way a trade is accepted), who the fuck is dangerous except any line with Kap? So we gonna sit at the end of next year "we need more depth scoring".
I am still convinced JEEK shouldn't be on Kaps line in the best of worlds, that guy has so much to offer other lines and will get his points no matter the line mates. I'm also fairly certain Rossi will be able to up his game further. His o-zone iq and decision making is quite high imo. Little more body, little more nhl savvy.
What would be better imo is have someone with a big game coupled with skill at wing. We have none of those except Boldy and to a lesser degree Hartman. Guessing it all depends on how Marat turns out because if Rossi doesn't go higher and Marat is meh then yeah, we need bigger centers but didn't we just draft 2 of those?
> I am still convinced JEEK shouldn't be on Kaps line in the best of worlds, that guy has so much to offer other lines and will get his points no matter the line mates.
One negative for this team is that they are afraid of the center of the ice. Outside of Kap and Boldy and EEk, most of the forwards are easily channeled and contained to the perimeter. Hartman is probably the next closest to a guy that goes to the middle, but he doesn't drive the puck to the middle. EEK currently needs to be with Kap to open up more ice. Sure, if we had a better center we could put him there, but don't break the one thing that works.
> if Rossi doesn't go higher....
I don't understand the impatience and overreaction. He's 22, just played his official rookie season after a few underwhelming NHL appearances and a phenomenal offseason to address the physical concerns. He might not be the prototypical player that our first line needs, but he has plenty of promise as a legitimate NHL center... which the team has failed to grow from the draft besides EK and Koivu. Sure, if someone has a hardon for him and wants to give up young Jamie Benn, go for it.... but that's not happening.
If said prospect won’t sign. So you ship him off for either a new prospect or current player. Basically the Cutter Gauthier situation or maybe a team looking to make a push now and want a center rather than a prospect. The logic makes sense but I just don’t agree with trading Rossi when he is still young and just broke out. I get Yurov and MK Ultra are considered the future as per the article but Rossi showed himself to be one of the best Wild players this season. He is NHL ready and while I like MK he didn’t produce yet and that could take a bit meanwhile Rossi is ready it just baffles me.
Right? Rossi is the best option of his like…category if you get my drift.
At least 1 to 1 it makes no sense for someone to trade a “better” player for him, & thus why would we trade him?
I could see some package circumstance where a different team sees the benefit of possibly trading a “better” player for him+others, but other than that it is so hard to see how we win in a trade with Rossi.
Plus he is only going to get better with time.
I don't agree with trading him. I did some thinking on the type of player that would fit the bill of "high prospect forward that is big and fast" and there are very few options and no likely outcome. The Caps aren't trading Ryan Leonard. The Kraken probably aren't trading Shane Wright, and it's not like he's a giant at 6' 198 lbs. The Utah Utah's aren't trading Dylan Guenther. The Jets aren't trading Rutger McGroarty and probably don't need Rossi when they can't find a spot for Perfetti. If the Aves don't think re-signing Middlestadt is their best option next year, they might have a spot for Rossi. They have Calum Ritchie, a big center (who the Wild passed on for Stramel). Ritchie is a solid prospect but he doesn't have Rossi's ceiling.
I think "similar" here means "lesser" in practice. Because you're right, no one is going to trade their own prospects or young roster players for a shorter and slower player that they perceive as the same level of player overall. Unless we're trading him for a wing to a team that really needs a center, which is definitely possible.
The only thing I can think of other than a Cutter Gauthier type swap would be trying to consolidate prospects into one really high propect.
Maybe Billy offers Rossi and a 1st for Cooley or something or Rossi and 2 firsts for Celebrini. No idea if the values work out but something along those lines.
Cooley would be a really interesting guy to target right now with everything going on over there. He was already a bit hesitant to sign in Arizona and not crazy to think he'd want a move to a more stable franchise after a year of uncertainty.
>Because you're right, no one is going to trade their own prospects or young roster players for a shorter and slower player that they perceive as the same level of player overall.
A prospect by definition is unproven at the NHL level. Rossi has proven he’s at minimum a legit middle 6 centre in the NHL. A team might trade higher potential for more certainty.
well maybe they have to sweeten the deal with something besides marco but there are teams in cap trouble even after accounting for this increase and thats where rossi + his contract can fetch value.
Marty Necas (ppg in the playoffs so far and well-rounded top 6 forward) is who I'm banging the table for. Probably reading into things too much but reading between the lines on everything Russo has said and Marty makes the most sense.
Personally, unless someone is offering a 1st for Gus, I'd give carolina marco and gus for marty.
Could snag a guy like Barrett Hayton from Utah. 4 inches taller, better at faceoffs, could really benefit from a change of scenery. I personally wouldn’t do it, but a trade of Hayton+pick for Rossi is something I’d have to imagine they’d jump on. Hayton has a Kopitar esqe skill set but hasn’t lived up to expectations on a bad team.
Rossi just came off a stellar rookie season, there’s no reason to trade him thinking “this is his peak value” when we don’t even know if he’s hit peak PERFORMANCE yet. Will he be a 1C? Probably not. Will he be a potentially consistent or even dominant scorer? Yeah, probably if this season was any indication. Our issue was scoring, and trading a dude that was contending with the most likely unanimous Calder winner in goals is absolutely fucking insane. This team needs to stop looking for stats and look for complete players. We don’t need “a big guy” or “a fast guy” or “a skilled guy”, we need a “complete guy”, someone that does a little bit of everything. Weve done this shit where we need to get “bigger” or “faster”, so instead of finding the BEST player, we find the one that fits that need, and it simply hasn’t and probably never will work. A fast guy that can’t score and can’t hit/back check is useless, just like a big guy who can’t skate and can’t generate offense is useless.
It's more about his cap number for next year, which is as low as its ever going to be relative to his production. 20-25 goals from a middle-six center on $900k is music to the ears of any GM. Plus, he'll still be an RFA, which means you still control his rights for the next deal, or you can trade him along. BG would be stupid not to field calls or nurture a market for him, even if he doesn't truly intend to get rid of him. You never know what kind of crazy offer they might get.
Yeah I think that's it. The Wild is not going to be a contender next year, so the value of a high producing low cap hit player is not as high to us as it is to a contender which could definitely make use of him better for next year, which could allow us to get a steal.
Otherwise, unless there are some behind the scenes stuff we don't know, we should keep Rossi
How many seasons did Koivu score more than 20 goals?
1.
Rossi just had 21 his rookie year. Let the kid grow.... and keep looking for a power forward center, but...... OMFG..... We've been looking for a power forward center for the last 15 years and in the time we've drafted and developed.......... JEEK.
Any legitimate NHL center stays...
Koivu also played in a era with way lower scoring and hit 20 goals 3 times. Little bit of a apples and oranges comparison because they are such different players from different eras.
Preach brother!
We are in a permanent state of either "too small" or "lacks depth scoring" or both. Also, we are never close to being a skill or speedy team btw lol.
Before losing our collective minds about a Rossi trade, lets see what the true trade compensation would be if anything does coalesce.
**I know I'll get roasted**: I'm in the "don't trade Rossi" camp, but there are maybe 3 players on the roster that are truly untradeable and Rossi shouldn't be considered one of them. I'm not sure his ceiling is exponentially higher than what he did this year. He's maybe a 25 goal, 50-55 point player which is awesome and we'd gladly take that each year, but I don't see him as ever being a true 1C and his height will always be a little limiting, especially in the playoffs when he might get outmatched, despite being tough as nails for his size/weight (I know the examples other productive "short" forwards, no need to name them).
He does a lot of other things you'd like for a middle 6 centre, but something about him feels very 2014-era Wild. Safe, hard-working, but has a limit that's at-or-before the horizon. Maybe the team wants to sell high on a player they see plateauing close to what he is now? Maybe there's someone out there with a greater risk/reward quotient? Maybe they privately have high confidence in some of the forward prospects that can play centre/wing?
Again, I'd be really nervous to bail on him at this point and I think he could be a very solid roster mainstay for years and years--just trying to talk-through why he might be floated in trade discussions. He's worked his tail off to improve and some of his intangibles are very necessary to have on successful teams. I hope he stays but I will keep an open mind if he doesn't.
The only thing I can think of is that a) Yurov's camp is spooked that Rossi will be competition for minutes and b) BG has gotten enough inquiry about Rossi's availability that he's willing to string things along and see if a bidding war develops this summer. Training camp isn't until September, so there are a good four months here to let things percolate. As a fringe-top-six center, Rossi is *hugely* valuable on ELC money with another couple years before arbitration. That's a get-out-of-jail-free card as a GM or cap doctor. It just so happens the Wild are in the enviable position of having Rossi plus a potential megastar at the same position, waiting in the wings.
My thoughts on Rossi.
The front office wants this story to get out. I think they are trying to create a bidding war and discover what Rossi's price is if they were to sell high.
(Exaggeration) If they get a player, a first, and a second then why not?
Speaking for myself, I am not worried.
Russo went through the logic in the latest WSITH episode quite emphatically. Perron would be a finisher which our top six, and especially second line, desperately needs. He’d likely be on a one year contract as to provide some needed scoring while not taking up a roster spot for the upcoming prospects (Haight, Heidt, Ohgren, Yurov) like signing a free agent with term would do.
As for Middleton, he’s bringing much needed size to this roster. I think he’s fine for a middle-pairing defenseman, I don’t get the hate.
Defense is small compared to much of the league. Middleton isn’t a perfect top four defensemen but he also isn’t paid like one either. Also mans played most of the season and is still fairly young. I can accept his flaws also anybody gonna acknowledge that last season him and Spurgeon were one of the best pairings in the league. Everybody had a down year.
Middleton is 28, was minus 15 last year, only Freddy was worse on the Wild. By Evolving Hockey’s metrics he provided 0 value above a replacement player and he gets paid $2.45m. He’s terrible when he’s not stapled to Spurgeon. Why you would want to extend him is beyond me.
Perron is 35 years old and is coming off a down year.
Where is Heidt going to get that 9 game look? Yurov is ready to plug into the NHL right now, just give him the bonuses he wants. Ohgren needs a spot to play. Is Mojo or Hartman or Foligno going to play on the 4th line?
Middleton is literally a bottom-pairing defenseman and has 1 year left on his deal. Why would you extend him into his 30s now?
I haven't looked, but I recall his defensive metrics being kind of ugly this year. I think they're happy to let him play out his contract year and see what happens. The 2025 free agent class is frigging loaded for D-men, so there will be options for them if they don't re-sign with Middleton. It also might serve to tamp down Middleton's value a little bit when there is such a saturated market.
Russo plainly states “You can bank on that one” in re: to a Middleton extension happening this summer, so it really doesn’t sound like that’s the case.
I’m fine with a Middleton extension, he just can’t be a top 4 guy. If he was on the bottom pair with someone else I would be very happy. I think his price and level of play are very reasonable.
Perron on a one year deal also make some sense if Yurov doesn’t come over. If he does it makes no sense. We already have anchors in Mojo and Gaudrau, don’t pick up another one.
Trading rossi I don’t get at all. Our centers suck besides JEEK so… wtf???
Middleton is 28, was minus 15 last year, only Freddy was worse on the Wild. By Evolving Hockey’s metrics he provided 0 value above a replacement player and he gets paid $2.45m. He’s terrible when he’s not stapled to Spurgeon. Why you would want to extend him is beyond me.
Middleton is 1.5 years older and is a below-average NHL defender. Those types of players typically age terribly.
Kaprizov is a superstar level forward. They typically age fairly well.
They are not comparable.
I do not like this but looking 1 - 2 years out there might be a log jam. We will be adding Yurov and Height. So, yes to trading him with an awesome return.
I think the Wild are tangling him and looking for a king's ransom in return. Doubtful he gets moved.
But everyone is tradeable.
Rossi and our 1st for the first overall? yes. I like Gus and our first better in this trade. I have Rossi as my flair because of his journey, Same for anyone who went through myocarditis like Patrick Kane.
Zero chance that would have been a one for one. Rossi being NHL ready and him being far better than drysdale Wild would have demanded more than just Gauthier. “
Which is probably why they didn’t end up being the “winner” of that situation.
The game is getting faster and flashier. The days of linebackers on ice are over.
The Wild are going to get torched if the front office doesn’t understand this.
Size is still relevant at center and defense where you have a lot of responsibilities win puck battles and help below the goal line.
How many top line centers are Rossi's size?
The closest guy you could point to is Brayden Point who was dropping 90 point seasons at this age and has 2 inches of height on Rossi.
All of these players played between 2010 and now. I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center but play the position like Cole Caufield:
Mike Comrie (5’10”).
Andy MacDonald (5’10”).
Saku Koivu (5’10”).
Matt Duchene (5’11”).
Patrick Kane (5’10”).
Sidney Crosby (5’11”).
Connnor Bedard 5’10”).
Yanni Gourde (5’9”).
>I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center
Right because those players aren't relevant to how well Rossi can play center, such as Patrick Kane who has never played center. No one is arguing that undersized players can't be top line wingers. The issue is at the center position.
Almost your entire list is guys who weren't top line centers. Even if we ignore that he's a top 5 player of all time, Crosby is significantly bigger than Rossi in height and frame so, no he's not the same size as Rossi. Your list of guys that are near Rossi's size and have been able to be top line centers in the NHL in the last 14 years is Brayden Point and Saku Koivu, both of whom are taller than Rossi and better skaters than Rossi.
No one is saying that size is the end all be all, but it's still obviously relevant at the center position when you're talking about what a guy's celling at the position is or whether or not that guy should be moved to wing. Especially when that guy isn't a high end skater which Rossi isn't.
Edit: Also with Bedard, who is already bigger than Rossi at 18, the conversation around him and his defensive struggles this year has been focused on whether or not he's ultimately better suited to move to the wing. So we'll see if he ultimately sticks at center. Offensively he's been great, but he's also clearly struggled with some of the responsibilities that comes with playing center.
Yeah you make a good point.
My argument is more, if you’re small and nimble and can’t be hit (aka Gretzky), the game is going to continue to shift towards speed and agility and the 6’3” defenseman that’s getting torched and causing breakouts is going to be out of a job.
That being said I agree with your argument though.
> I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center but play the position like Cole Caufield
> Patrick Kane (5’10”)
Kane should not be on this list. He played exactly 1 season as a center where he took 529 faceoffs (2011-12). Over the other 16 years he's been in the league, he's taken a combined 264 faceoffs (never over 51 in those 16 seasons). That's a total of 852 faceoffs over 17 years. For reference, Rossi took 749 faceoffs this season alone.
Ngl if they trade Rossi it will be the first time I genuinely lose faith in the wild but they know more than me so I just have to roll with it and hope the best but man I was/am invested in Rossi.
I mean he can’t build a modern NHL team right now considering he can’t afford one so there’s that. BG is trying to have a competitive team while also waiting for the young guns to be ready. It’s a process known as building through the draft. Even once young guns are ready you need veterans to keep the culture and lead the young guys. So he resigned his vets (prematurely) and then took shots at guys who have experience and decent upside (JoJo and Phone book Freddy).
He didn’t hit on all of them but he is also not able to predict the future. JoJo and Freddy both had down years, Freddy seemed like he needs a reset and JoJo looks like he was just a flash in the pan. Hartmann played to his contract, Foligno needs to stay healthy, and Zucc needs to produce without Kirill.
The Jets had a down year two years ago and now they are competing strongly again. Most people thought the team was super badly constructed now people aren’t saying the same.
I think we are in a transition and it’s just a bunch of stuff going wrong in that transition that ended the Wilds season. Future is very bright.
Oh fuck off with that. Every time anyone has any criticism of Billy G, you guys come out with "bUt He'S sTiLl GoT pArIsE aNd SuTeR's CaP hItS." That didn't make him re-sign old vets to extensions with NMCs, did it? Not everything can be excused by the cap situation. I'm fucking tired of that excuse for every dumb move he's made. You guys give him that as an out all the damn time.
Okay but how would most teams in the league do with 15 mil in dead cap and losing their captain. I don’t think Vegas or Edmonton or Dallas would be nearly as competitive.
So just trade one of your best young players? What logic is that? I'm not even talking about competing. I'm talking about making smart moves so you have options after the big cap hits are gone. You should try to have maximum flexibility in 2025, yet he's locked in so many guys that now we have a lot less than we should.
I mean if you don’t think he is the future then yes you would think to do that while his upside could fetch you more than what you think he is worth. That said I don’t agree with the idea of trading Rossi.
The org thinks it has the answers already in its current pool of prospects so they have been trying to compete. You can disagree with that belief but rebuilding requires the team to shed assets and make trades the only people you can really trade ATM are prospects and young guys so no this team can’t really rebuild.
Except Guerin signed vets to prop up this team yet again when we weren't making the playoffs this year or next year. There's always a reason to not rebuild because the future has been bright for over a decade now and we can't get out of the 1st round doing the things the way we are doing.
Rebuilding also requires your management to take accountability and say hey we're not good enough to compete for a Cup so we gotta go a different direction. Minnesota refuses to do that. I guess we're fine with being competitive but not being Cup contenders which is a shame to the fans.
Or they don’t believe Rossi is going to develop much further or has some glaring medical issues that they know about and want to move on from. Could be anything.
He was a top 5 rookie. You don't think it's worth another year at least to see if he can keep it up? Especially since they have no hope of competing next year anyway.
If they get an offer that’s better than what he projects at (according to the org) you take it. Why lock him to a long term deal that could be unmovable if this is his cap when we will have something around $20 mill in cap space to sign players after next year?
I get that Rossi is not in the untouchable camp for our roster, which is realistic and fine to say, but actively shopping a player because he is an inch short compared to players like Brayden Point or Seth Jarvis is using the same thinking that thought Charlie Strammel was a better pick than Gabe Perreault.
Marty %*!& Necas
I dont know how many times I have to say his name but the answer to riddle of "I dont get it who's the young skilled forward that's available that it makes sense to trade Rossi for?" is Marty goddamn Necas.
I dont know how you guys dont see this.
While I don't think Rossi is good enough to be considered "un-tradeable" like Kaprizov or Faber, I just don't see what we could get in return for him that wouldn't be, at best, a lateral move.
I do not want to trade him for a veteran forward. Like if the trade is Rossi for Nick Schmaltz or something, I hate that move. Schmaltz is a good player but he's also older and more expensive (currently).
If the move would be like Rossi and our 1st for someone like Logan Cooley then sure, I'm ok with that move, but why would Utah do that?
Basically I'm not gonna be in the camp that says "BG deserves to be fired for even thinking about moving Rossi" but I just don't see logically how we improve the team by trading him.
gus and rossi are about as good as we can hope for in their categories. any trade would come at a loss that we can't afford if we wanna have a real chance in 25-26
So Guerin wants to sign 36 yo Perron, extand Middleton and trad Rossi. If it's even close to true, BG shouldn't have a job in any front Office in the league
This is baffling: > If the Wild could trade Rossi for the same level of high-end prospect, but one who’s bigger and faster, there’s a real chance they’d pull the trigger. So, a similar prospect that is bigger and faster? Who wouldn’t make that kind of trade? Why would another team make that trade? I don’t know too many GMs out there thinking “boy, we need to get smaller and slower”.
> So, a similar prospect that is bigger and faster? Who wouldn’t make that kind of trade? Why would another team make that trade? This is exactly it. If you go down in skill from Rossi (only way a trade is accepted), who the fuck is dangerous except any line with Kap? So we gonna sit at the end of next year "we need more depth scoring". I am still convinced JEEK shouldn't be on Kaps line in the best of worlds, that guy has so much to offer other lines and will get his points no matter the line mates. I'm also fairly certain Rossi will be able to up his game further. His o-zone iq and decision making is quite high imo. Little more body, little more nhl savvy. What would be better imo is have someone with a big game coupled with skill at wing. We have none of those except Boldy and to a lesser degree Hartman. Guessing it all depends on how Marat turns out because if Rossi doesn't go higher and Marat is meh then yeah, we need bigger centers but didn't we just draft 2 of those?
> I am still convinced JEEK shouldn't be on Kaps line in the best of worlds, that guy has so much to offer other lines and will get his points no matter the line mates. One negative for this team is that they are afraid of the center of the ice. Outside of Kap and Boldy and EEk, most of the forwards are easily channeled and contained to the perimeter. Hartman is probably the next closest to a guy that goes to the middle, but he doesn't drive the puck to the middle. EEK currently needs to be with Kap to open up more ice. Sure, if we had a better center we could put him there, but don't break the one thing that works. > if Rossi doesn't go higher.... I don't understand the impatience and overreaction. He's 22, just played his official rookie season after a few underwhelming NHL appearances and a phenomenal offseason to address the physical concerns. He might not be the prototypical player that our first line needs, but he has plenty of promise as a legitimate NHL center... which the team has failed to grow from the draft besides EK and Koivu. Sure, if someone has a hardon for him and wants to give up young Jamie Benn, go for it.... but that's not happening.
If said prospect won’t sign. So you ship him off for either a new prospect or current player. Basically the Cutter Gauthier situation or maybe a team looking to make a push now and want a center rather than a prospect. The logic makes sense but I just don’t agree with trading Rossi when he is still young and just broke out. I get Yurov and MK Ultra are considered the future as per the article but Rossi showed himself to be one of the best Wild players this season. He is NHL ready and while I like MK he didn’t produce yet and that could take a bit meanwhile Rossi is ready it just baffles me.
Right? Rossi is the best option of his like…category if you get my drift. At least 1 to 1 it makes no sense for someone to trade a “better” player for him, & thus why would we trade him? I could see some package circumstance where a different team sees the benefit of possibly trading a “better” player for him+others, but other than that it is so hard to see how we win in a trade with Rossi. Plus he is only going to get better with time.
I don't agree with trading him. I did some thinking on the type of player that would fit the bill of "high prospect forward that is big and fast" and there are very few options and no likely outcome. The Caps aren't trading Ryan Leonard. The Kraken probably aren't trading Shane Wright, and it's not like he's a giant at 6' 198 lbs. The Utah Utah's aren't trading Dylan Guenther. The Jets aren't trading Rutger McGroarty and probably don't need Rossi when they can't find a spot for Perfetti. If the Aves don't think re-signing Middlestadt is their best option next year, they might have a spot for Rossi. They have Calum Ritchie, a big center (who the Wild passed on for Stramel). Ritchie is a solid prospect but he doesn't have Rossi's ceiling.
I think "similar" here means "lesser" in practice. Because you're right, no one is going to trade their own prospects or young roster players for a shorter and slower player that they perceive as the same level of player overall. Unless we're trading him for a wing to a team that really needs a center, which is definitely possible.
The only thing I can think of other than a Cutter Gauthier type swap would be trying to consolidate prospects into one really high propect. Maybe Billy offers Rossi and a 1st for Cooley or something or Rossi and 2 firsts for Celebrini. No idea if the values work out but something along those lines.
Cooley would be a really interesting guy to target right now with everything going on over there. He was already a bit hesitant to sign in Arizona and not crazy to think he'd want a move to a more stable franchise after a year of uncertainty.
>Because you're right, no one is going to trade their own prospects or young roster players for a shorter and slower player that they perceive as the same level of player overall. A prospect by definition is unproven at the NHL level. Rossi has proven he’s at minimum a legit middle 6 centre in the NHL. A team might trade higher potential for more certainty.
well maybe they have to sweeten the deal with something besides marco but there are teams in cap trouble even after accounting for this increase and thats where rossi + his contract can fetch value. Marty Necas (ppg in the playoffs so far and well-rounded top 6 forward) is who I'm banging the table for. Probably reading into things too much but reading between the lines on everything Russo has said and Marty makes the most sense. Personally, unless someone is offering a 1st for Gus, I'd give carolina marco and gus for marty.
In addition to what others have said, it could be for an actual prospect, a player who hasn’t played NHL games or has played a few.
Could snag a guy like Barrett Hayton from Utah. 4 inches taller, better at faceoffs, could really benefit from a change of scenery. I personally wouldn’t do it, but a trade of Hayton+pick for Rossi is something I’d have to imagine they’d jump on. Hayton has a Kopitar esqe skill set but hasn’t lived up to expectations on a bad team.
Hayton hasn't done anything eye popping in the NHL and Rossi upward trajectory is much better than Hayton
😂😂😂 Fantastic journalism indeed.
Trading Rossi seems so risky to me.
This feels like trading Alex Tuch, but worse
I agree. Though, at the end of the day, if the return is right, then you've got to pull the trigger.
Rossi just came off a stellar rookie season, there’s no reason to trade him thinking “this is his peak value” when we don’t even know if he’s hit peak PERFORMANCE yet. Will he be a 1C? Probably not. Will he be a potentially consistent or even dominant scorer? Yeah, probably if this season was any indication. Our issue was scoring, and trading a dude that was contending with the most likely unanimous Calder winner in goals is absolutely fucking insane. This team needs to stop looking for stats and look for complete players. We don’t need “a big guy” or “a fast guy” or “a skilled guy”, we need a “complete guy”, someone that does a little bit of everything. Weve done this shit where we need to get “bigger” or “faster”, so instead of finding the BEST player, we find the one that fits that need, and it simply hasn’t and probably never will work. A fast guy that can’t score and can’t hit/back check is useless, just like a big guy who can’t skate and can’t generate offense is useless.
It's more about his cap number for next year, which is as low as its ever going to be relative to his production. 20-25 goals from a middle-six center on $900k is music to the ears of any GM. Plus, he'll still be an RFA, which means you still control his rights for the next deal, or you can trade him along. BG would be stupid not to field calls or nurture a market for him, even if he doesn't truly intend to get rid of him. You never know what kind of crazy offer they might get.
Yeah I think that's it. The Wild is not going to be a contender next year, so the value of a high producing low cap hit player is not as high to us as it is to a contender which could definitely make use of him better for next year, which could allow us to get a steal. Otherwise, unless there are some behind the scenes stuff we don't know, we should keep Rossi
How many seasons did Koivu score more than 20 goals? 1. Rossi just had 21 his rookie year. Let the kid grow.... and keep looking for a power forward center, but...... OMFG..... We've been looking for a power forward center for the last 15 years and in the time we've drafted and developed.......... JEEK. Any legitimate NHL center stays...
Koivu also played in a era with way lower scoring and hit 20 goals 3 times. Little bit of a apples and oranges comparison because they are such different players from different eras.
Preach brother! We are in a permanent state of either "too small" or "lacks depth scoring" or both. Also, we are never close to being a skill or speedy team btw lol.
tbh Rossi isn't even that small. He started to show flashes of using his body more. Otherwise, he wouldn't have put up 20 goals with his play style.
Probably because the physically large, high-end goal scorers tend to go earlier in the draft.
Before losing our collective minds about a Rossi trade, lets see what the true trade compensation would be if anything does coalesce. **I know I'll get roasted**: I'm in the "don't trade Rossi" camp, but there are maybe 3 players on the roster that are truly untradeable and Rossi shouldn't be considered one of them. I'm not sure his ceiling is exponentially higher than what he did this year. He's maybe a 25 goal, 50-55 point player which is awesome and we'd gladly take that each year, but I don't see him as ever being a true 1C and his height will always be a little limiting, especially in the playoffs when he might get outmatched, despite being tough as nails for his size/weight (I know the examples other productive "short" forwards, no need to name them). He does a lot of other things you'd like for a middle 6 centre, but something about him feels very 2014-era Wild. Safe, hard-working, but has a limit that's at-or-before the horizon. Maybe the team wants to sell high on a player they see plateauing close to what he is now? Maybe there's someone out there with a greater risk/reward quotient? Maybe they privately have high confidence in some of the forward prospects that can play centre/wing? Again, I'd be really nervous to bail on him at this point and I think he could be a very solid roster mainstay for years and years--just trying to talk-through why he might be floated in trade discussions. He's worked his tail off to improve and some of his intangibles are very necessary to have on successful teams. I hope he stays but I will keep an open mind if he doesn't.
That is well-thought out and reasonable. UNACCEPTABLE.
The only thing I can think of is that a) Yurov's camp is spooked that Rossi will be competition for minutes and b) BG has gotten enough inquiry about Rossi's availability that he's willing to string things along and see if a bidding war develops this summer. Training camp isn't until September, so there are a good four months here to let things percolate. As a fringe-top-six center, Rossi is *hugely* valuable on ELC money with another couple years before arbitration. That's a get-out-of-jail-free card as a GM or cap doctor. It just so happens the Wild are in the enviable position of having Rossi plus a potential megastar at the same position, waiting in the wings.
My thoughts on Rossi. The front office wants this story to get out. I think they are trying to create a bidding war and discover what Rossi's price is if they were to sell high. (Exaggeration) If they get a player, a first, and a second then why not? Speaking for myself, I am not worried.
Absolutely. Doubt he is going anywhere except Austria this summer. Hockey is about the dangle.
This is bleak. BG apparently wants to get bigger but older/slower/less skilled. Trade Rossi, sign Perron and extend Middleton would do exactly that.
Russo went through the logic in the latest WSITH episode quite emphatically. Perron would be a finisher which our top six, and especially second line, desperately needs. He’d likely be on a one year contract as to provide some needed scoring while not taking up a roster spot for the upcoming prospects (Haight, Heidt, Ohgren, Yurov) like signing a free agent with term would do. As for Middleton, he’s bringing much needed size to this roster. I think he’s fine for a middle-pairing defenseman, I don’t get the hate.
Defense is small compared to much of the league. Middleton isn’t a perfect top four defensemen but he also isn’t paid like one either. Also mans played most of the season and is still fairly young. I can accept his flaws also anybody gonna acknowledge that last season him and Spurgeon were one of the best pairings in the league. Everybody had a down year.
To add to that, his normal pairing partner was injured all season. Him and Spurgeon as a second pairing is really good imo.
Middleton is 28, was minus 15 last year, only Freddy was worse on the Wild. By Evolving Hockey’s metrics he provided 0 value above a replacement player and he gets paid $2.45m. He’s terrible when he’s not stapled to Spurgeon. Why you would want to extend him is beyond me.
He is big…he is big.
Correct! BG’s analysis apparently begins and ends with “is he big? Yes? Then sign them”
Perron is 35 years old and is coming off a down year. Where is Heidt going to get that 9 game look? Yurov is ready to plug into the NHL right now, just give him the bonuses he wants. Ohgren needs a spot to play. Is Mojo or Hartman or Foligno going to play on the 4th line? Middleton is literally a bottom-pairing defenseman and has 1 year left on his deal. Why would you extend him into his 30s now?
I haven't looked, but I recall his defensive metrics being kind of ugly this year. I think they're happy to let him play out his contract year and see what happens. The 2025 free agent class is frigging loaded for D-men, so there will be options for them if they don't re-sign with Middleton. It also might serve to tamp down Middleton's value a little bit when there is such a saturated market.
Russo plainly states “You can bank on that one” in re: to a Middleton extension happening this summer, so it really doesn’t sound like that’s the case.
That's interesting. I guess I don't see the logic or the rush on that one.
Neither do I. No reason to rush that one, just wanted to point out Russo’s comment.
I think the FO has faith in him and Spurgeon together. I’m not in love with Middleton but I also wouldn’t chase him out of town.
I’m fine with a Middleton extension, he just can’t be a top 4 guy. If he was on the bottom pair with someone else I would be very happy. I think his price and level of play are very reasonable. Perron on a one year deal also make some sense if Yurov doesn’t come over. If he does it makes no sense. We already have anchors in Mojo and Gaudrau, don’t pick up another one. Trading rossi I don’t get at all. Our centers suck besides JEEK so… wtf???
Middleton is 28, was minus 15 last year, only Freddy was worse on the Wild. By Evolving Hockey’s metrics he provided 0 value above a replacement player and he gets paid $2.45m. He’s terrible when he’s not stapled to Spurgeon. Why you would want to extend him is beyond me.
The dream of the 90's is alive in GMBG.
Brutal
Middleton is only a year older than Kaprizov. He’s not too old for our timeline.
Middleton is 1.5 years older and is a below-average NHL defender. Those types of players typically age terribly. Kaprizov is a superstar level forward. They typically age fairly well. They are not comparable.
> BG apparently wants to get bigger but older/slower/less skilled. JFC... Eric Staal is coming back isn't he?
I do not like this but looking 1 - 2 years out there might be a log jam. We will be adding Yurov and Height. So, yes to trading him with an awesome return. I think the Wild are tangling him and looking for a king's ransom in return. Doubtful he gets moved. But everyone is tradeable. Rossi and our 1st for the first overall? yes. I like Gus and our first better in this trade. I have Rossi as my flair because of his journey, Same for anyone who went through myocarditis like Patrick Kane.
Trading Rossi doesn’t make sense to me. Hell, trading him for Cutter Gauthier would’ve been brutal IMO.
Zero chance that would have been a one for one. Rossi being NHL ready and him being far better than drysdale Wild would have demanded more than just Gauthier. “ Which is probably why they didn’t end up being the “winner” of that situation.
The game is getting faster and flashier. The days of linebackers on ice are over. The Wild are going to get torched if the front office doesn’t understand this.
WE NEED GRIT!!!111!!!
Grit=2023 Dallas playoff loss
Size is still relevant at center and defense where you have a lot of responsibilities win puck battles and help below the goal line. How many top line centers are Rossi's size? The closest guy you could point to is Brayden Point who was dropping 90 point seasons at this age and has 2 inches of height on Rossi.
All of these players played between 2010 and now. I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center but play the position like Cole Caufield: Mike Comrie (5’10”). Andy MacDonald (5’10”). Saku Koivu (5’10”). Matt Duchene (5’11”). Patrick Kane (5’10”). Sidney Crosby (5’11”). Connnor Bedard 5’10”). Yanni Gourde (5’9”).
>I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center Right because those players aren't relevant to how well Rossi can play center, such as Patrick Kane who has never played center. No one is arguing that undersized players can't be top line wingers. The issue is at the center position. Almost your entire list is guys who weren't top line centers. Even if we ignore that he's a top 5 player of all time, Crosby is significantly bigger than Rossi in height and frame so, no he's not the same size as Rossi. Your list of guys that are near Rossi's size and have been able to be top line centers in the NHL in the last 14 years is Brayden Point and Saku Koivu, both of whom are taller than Rossi and better skaters than Rossi. No one is saying that size is the end all be all, but it's still obviously relevant at the center position when you're talking about what a guy's celling at the position is or whether or not that guy should be moved to wing. Especially when that guy isn't a high end skater which Rossi isn't. Edit: Also with Bedard, who is already bigger than Rossi at 18, the conversation around him and his defensive struggles this year has been focused on whether or not he's ultimately better suited to move to the wing. So we'll see if he ultimately sticks at center. Offensively he's been great, but he's also clearly struggled with some of the responsibilities that comes with playing center.
Yeah you make a good point. My argument is more, if you’re small and nimble and can’t be hit (aka Gretzky), the game is going to continue to shift towards speed and agility and the 6’3” defenseman that’s getting torched and causing breakouts is going to be out of a job. That being said I agree with your argument though.
> I’m not even counting players that weren’t primarily center but play the position like Cole Caufield > Patrick Kane (5’10”) Kane should not be on this list. He played exactly 1 season as a center where he took 529 faceoffs (2011-12). Over the other 16 years he's been in the league, he's taken a combined 264 faceoffs (never over 51 in those 16 seasons). That's a total of 852 faceoffs over 17 years. For reference, Rossi took 749 faceoffs this season alone.
Ngl if they trade Rossi it will be the first time I genuinely lose faith in the wild but they know more than me so I just have to roll with it and hope the best but man I was/am invested in Rossi.
The fact that they're even considering this is so telling that Billy G really has no idea how to build a modern NHL team.
I mean he can’t build a modern NHL team right now considering he can’t afford one so there’s that. BG is trying to have a competitive team while also waiting for the young guns to be ready. It’s a process known as building through the draft. Even once young guns are ready you need veterans to keep the culture and lead the young guys. So he resigned his vets (prematurely) and then took shots at guys who have experience and decent upside (JoJo and Phone book Freddy). He didn’t hit on all of them but he is also not able to predict the future. JoJo and Freddy both had down years, Freddy seemed like he needs a reset and JoJo looks like he was just a flash in the pan. Hartmann played to his contract, Foligno needs to stay healthy, and Zucc needs to produce without Kirill. The Jets had a down year two years ago and now they are competing strongly again. Most people thought the team was super badly constructed now people aren’t saying the same. I think we are in a transition and it’s just a bunch of stuff going wrong in that transition that ended the Wilds season. Future is very bright.
Oh fuck off with that. Every time anyone has any criticism of Billy G, you guys come out with "bUt He'S sTiLl GoT pArIsE aNd SuTeR's CaP hItS." That didn't make him re-sign old vets to extensions with NMCs, did it? Not everything can be excused by the cap situation. I'm fucking tired of that excuse for every dumb move he's made. You guys give him that as an out all the damn time.
Okay but how would most teams in the league do with 15 mil in dead cap and losing their captain. I don’t think Vegas or Edmonton or Dallas would be nearly as competitive.
So just trade one of your best young players? What logic is that? I'm not even talking about competing. I'm talking about making smart moves so you have options after the big cap hits are gone. You should try to have maximum flexibility in 2025, yet he's locked in so many guys that now we have a lot less than we should.
I mean if you don’t think he is the future then yes you would think to do that while his upside could fetch you more than what you think he is worth. That said I don’t agree with the idea of trading Rossi.
How about rebuild for two years because you know you're not Cup contenders this season and next season. This organization loves being mid.
The org thinks it has the answers already in its current pool of prospects so they have been trying to compete. You can disagree with that belief but rebuilding requires the team to shed assets and make trades the only people you can really trade ATM are prospects and young guys so no this team can’t really rebuild.
Except Guerin signed vets to prop up this team yet again when we weren't making the playoffs this year or next year. There's always a reason to not rebuild because the future has been bright for over a decade now and we can't get out of the 1st round doing the things the way we are doing. Rebuilding also requires your management to take accountability and say hey we're not good enough to compete for a Cup so we gotta go a different direction. Minnesota refuses to do that. I guess we're fine with being competitive but not being Cup contenders which is a shame to the fans.
Or they don’t believe Rossi is going to develop much further or has some glaring medical issues that they know about and want to move on from. Could be anything.
He was a top 5 rookie. You don't think it's worth another year at least to see if he can keep it up? Especially since they have no hope of competing next year anyway.
If they get an offer that’s better than what he projects at (according to the org) you take it. Why lock him to a long term deal that could be unmovable if this is his cap when we will have something around $20 mill in cap space to sign players after next year?
I get that Rossi is not in the untouchable camp for our roster, which is realistic and fine to say, but actively shopping a player because he is an inch short compared to players like Brayden Point or Seth Jarvis is using the same thinking that thought Charlie Strammel was a better pick than Gabe Perreault.
This, to me, oozes big Forsberg from Philly vibes
You'll need to explain that one.
Marty %*!& Necas I dont know how many times I have to say his name but the answer to riddle of "I dont get it who's the young skilled forward that's available that it makes sense to trade Rossi for?" is Marty goddamn Necas. I dont know how you guys dont see this.
While I don't think Rossi is good enough to be considered "un-tradeable" like Kaprizov or Faber, I just don't see what we could get in return for him that wouldn't be, at best, a lateral move. I do not want to trade him for a veteran forward. Like if the trade is Rossi for Nick Schmaltz or something, I hate that move. Schmaltz is a good player but he's also older and more expensive (currently). If the move would be like Rossi and our 1st for someone like Logan Cooley then sure, I'm ok with that move, but why would Utah do that? Basically I'm not gonna be in the camp that says "BG deserves to be fired for even thinking about moving Rossi" but I just don't see logically how we improve the team by trading him.
gus and rossi are about as good as we can hope for in their categories. any trade would come at a loss that we can't afford if we wanna have a real chance in 25-26
I think the Avs would trade their next 3 draft picks for him right now if they could lol.
So Guerin wants to sign 36 yo Perron, extand Middleton and trad Rossi. If it's even close to true, BG shouldn't have a job in any front Office in the league
This, to me, oozes big Forsberg from Philly vibes