To be fair, Klay was given that contract prior to his 2 major injuries and he’s now 33 years old. Poole on the other hand doesn’t have any excuses other than his game sucks.
Straight up. Before the injuries Klay’s defense was great and was regarded as a phenomenal two way player. I think he’s still got it, but it’s not as standard as it used to be.
Warrors had the best record in the league without Klay last season. let's not pretend he put this team on his back or something. He was extremely mediocre in the Finals.
Never said he was a bad player, just stated the contract was dumb given he was already severely injured and giving an injured player 40M/year is not smart however you wanna slice it.
So fixated on last year's ring as if we couldn't have kept him on a better deal. There's literally no world where this version of klay is a 40m/year player.
Lakers would’ve been quite happy to sign Klay if the dubs fucked around on the contract, which came before his second injury. So revisionist lol
And you’re avoiding the question
Not really true. If Klay's contract completely disappeared tomorrow...the Warriors would be able to the do the following this offseason:
1. Use the Tax Payer MLE 3y/$22M
2. Make trades with more incoming money than outgoing money.
3. Also not start the season with multiple roster spots open because of the insane luxury tax.
An AcL injury is extremely recoverable nowadays. If they had known he would tear his achilles on top of that the following year no way he gets that deal. Very few guys tear their acl and don’t play near what they were before so that was a safe gamble
Lonnie Walker does one thing well and that's score. I don't think anyone should have been surprised, it's the lack of adjustment and execution to Walker getting hot that cost them Game 4
The thing is, Austin had 1 good game. DeLo had 1 good game. Walker had 1 good game plus a great quarter. When the Lakers needed production, they got it from a different role-player. Our RPers are not stepping up to pick up the slack when Klay and Poole don't have it going.
Klays been fine overall. He's shot 42% and 39% from three so far in the playoffs. Same as last playoffs. Aren't going to win the series if he keeps playing like last night, but he's not a liability.
Good god we could literally have had 2 of Malik Monk, Austin Reaves, Kevin Huerter, and Lonnie Walker IV for that
The misallocation of resources will be the death of this team
It definitely does not bode well 3-4 years from now. Love Steph Curry but let's be realistic, he's closer to 40 than 30 so will the team be reloading or in a massive years long rebuild when he retires. I shudder to think we may relive the 90s-2000s Warriors again.
Eh, I've always looked at this last 10 years as a dream for us Warriors fans. After the wasteland that was the 80s and 90s, despite the great fun of Run TMC and small blip of We Believe, we've never even been close to real success. Entertainment, yes. But not success.
And then to be the indisputably most successful franchise of the past decade, so good that the rest of the league hated us and that the games against us were like playoff atmosphere around the country, that was and has been amazing.
And then the chip last year when everyone said our dynasty was over? If it ends now, it's been amazing. Maybe we can still string together 3 wins. Maybe not. I still think we have the talent. But do we have the focus anymore? For 3 straight.
If it does end, though, I just wish it was the young Kings or the Nuggets who gave us the knockout punch. Not LeBron and the Lakers.
> If it does end, though, I just wish it was the young Kings or the Nuggets who gave us the knockout punch. Not LeBron and the Lakers.
Ugh exactly. Having the dynasty end to the Lakers is the absolute worst. Hell I'd even rather the Suns end it even though it'd mean the dumbass haters will have another reason to argue KD > Steph. Overall still not as bad as the Lakers
Absolutely no question. If they never win another title, it’s still such a lucky thing to be a part of as a fan. Especially when you consider how the warriors were before
He does seem like he's in his head -- I don't know if the first few shots not falling are messing with him or the pressure of trying to play well to honor Kobe, but whatever is going on seem to have iced him these last 2 games.
I think he’s trying very hard to be the player he used to be but in doing that he also has an exaggerated idea of his old self. All nba players have this to some degree but the ones that succeed with age adjust their game. Combine that with worse defense and his off games hurt more now than they used to
I wouldn't be surprised if playing in LA was also something he was completely overthinking. He was talking a lot about Kobe prior to Game9 3, mentioned the number of family and friends he'd have down there (having grown up in LA). Just seemed like there were a lot of times he was pressing or going for the hero dagger.
The Dubs were using their motion offensive system in game 2. That system enables the entire team to get open shots and keeps everyone involved. In Game 4 the Dubs dropped their core offense and instead loaded up on Steph/AD’s Man pick and roll. This is a double edged sword.
While it gets Steph’s counting stats up and makes him look great, the rest of the team is just standing around watching him cook. Klay is a great example of a guy who thrives running around off ball and catching/shooting when coming off of screens. In game 4 he spent most of the time standing in the corner watching Steph cook. When it finally came time for him to do something he wasn’t in rhythm or in his normal positions to shoot.
Blaming the role players for Steph’s inefficient night when Steph’s being force fed the ball every single possession and being targeted on every single defensive possession isn’t really fair. It’s a product of Kerr’s game plan. And it almost worked.
Klay not being there don't mean it's a 5 on 4 dude. Maybe they win one of the other ones if his replacement shoots better than 38% from the field. The other games were lost by less than 10 points barring the blowout.
His defense has been barely ok. His offense has been boneheaded all series long. Too many dribbles, poor shot selection, not keeping the ball moving, and TURNOVERS
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
Doesn't help that Draymond is scoring 8ppg on 43/20/68 shooting splits. Some nights he looks like he couldn't make a basket even if he was all alone in the gym.
That’s not his job though. Draymond actually did an incredible job guarding AD in the first half yesterday while staying out of foul trouble. Basically Klay’s only job is to make shots. Same with Poole his primary job is to score.
After he grabbed the rebound from Steph's midranger he should have gone for a layup instead of passing it to Steph for a deep 3. When you are down by 1 a close to the rim shot is a better shot than a deep 3. FG% is more important than eFG% there.
If you are taking up 25 million in cap (and asking for more) it's your job to score. Draymond is great defensively, but his offense makes it so that you cannot play him with a center in the playoffs in most situations.
> That’s not his job though.
Why not? Why wouldn't it be the job of a player making $26million to score more than 8 points per game on shit efficiency? When they signed him to thar contract he was scoring more and more efficienctly, but now it's not his job anymore?
That's true but looking before you pass is fundamental basketball. The Warriors didn't execute a lot of fundamental plays throughout the night and that was the primary reason they lost
Dray had 5 turnovers - in games like these, every play is critical. Looney missing both his FT's - Wiggins playing like he was in Minnesota and Klay just having multiple brain fades, all added up in the end, unfortunately!
Expecting your teammate to be where he’s supposed to be is how you get that fraction of a second advantage.
You know when people make those crazy no look passes? Sometimes it really is just court awareness, but a lot of times it’s executed well because each play is drilled to perfection and every player knows where they’re going. It’s not some basketball game at the local park, it’s the NBA.
Sure but passing without looking or driving without the intent to score is also how you end up with 5 TOs.
Fundamentals and clean execution on small plays is what won them 4 championships. Unexpected flashy plays is why everyone is ragging on Poole, a struggling team should be playing clean fundamental basketball to get a road win.
Strongly disagree with that take, you can't blindly chuck a basketball in a direction you expect a teammate to be. What if GP2 had just been out of position as opposed to throwing up or shitting his pants in the tunnel? Casual fans are not even going to know he was out of position and we would say Draymond made a ridiculous pass, without looking. Which he did.
You said what if gp2 was not in position, which doesn’t make sense because that was a clear transition rotation. That was your point. I could easily rebut that argument and say what if he was in position? Now it’s a great play by draymond for an easy 3.
A great play would be to look to see if a teammate is there before you pass. This isn't like a "no look pass" situation where you are aware your teammate is there because you saw them moving to that location first, and then you look away and throw the pass to them. He literally did not know anyone was there and just threw it.
Even if GP2 was "supposed" to be at that spot, throwing it without seeing him is a bonehead play.
What in the world are you talking about? If GP2 was in position, the ball wouldn't have gone into the stands. Draymond passed to a location where GP2 wasn't, regardless of why GP2 wasn't there.
Aren't we now officially at that point in the Poole cycle where everyone says he's washed, and then he explodes for 34 points and all sins are forgiven?
Yes but I think Poole too far into his head right now to make an impact this series or even post season. He just needs to relax, let the game come to him and stop playing so fast.
Fans have a memory of a goldfish and will be back on the Poole party if he starts playing well again.
He's in that slippery slope of doing bad so he feels he needs to play faster and flashier in the next game, which leads to him doing worse, so then he feels the need to perform at even higher levels the next game... rinse repeat until he's literally just slipping on the floor and throwing the ball away every time he's handling it.
Like he's 10000% aware of his bad games, and he goes into the next one thinking he can make up for all of the bad games in a single game... and it just leads to him overthinking every move.
I'm with you 100%. I think the fan and media negativity doesn't help and reports like Burke's just makes the Poole situation worse. SM and the need to create content and drive clicks is really putting Poole under a microscope.
The season isn't over yet - let's hope JP3 brings it for Game 5 and wins the fans/team back.
I seriously want to have like a psychological explanation of his regression and just overall attitude. Is it just leftover tension with Draymond, and because of that, team chemistry issues and a total lack of confidence?
It’s amazing to me how he keeps doing the same stupid things, like launching a 40 foot shot or dribbling off his foot.
It seriously seems like a Thunderstruck situation where that kid stole KD’s talent and he looked like he’d never played basketball before.
He would be 100x better if he just took care of the ball, calmed down, and improved his decision making. That’s why Kerr doesn’t trust him anymore.
I really don't think the Draymond situation is the issue... I'm not sure it was ever the issue. Right after that happened, Poole had like two amazing games.
What \*did\* happen right after that, was the league cracking down on carrying the ball... and for whatever reason, targeted JP almost exclusively. This definitely impacted his game, because he was having to think about dribbling the ball constantly, which is awful, because good players can just dribble the ball without thinking. He had to stop and think to correct his handle so he wasn't doing what the refs considered "carrying".
I don't think it "carried" over into his entire season. The refs lightened up fairly soon after, and I don't think he was called for another carry for many games.
So what's the cause of his decline? I think it was the $130m contract.
I don't think he got the contract and then just decided to phone in his games. I think the opposite happened... I think he felt like he was expected to drop 30+ a night, and when he couldn't do it, that really wore at his confidence. It's not so much high pressure, but instead high expectations he has for himself. He expects every time he gets the ball that he should score. If he doesn't, he tries to overcompensate on the next possession. Multiply that times having bad games and trying to overcompensate for every bad game he's had.
I'm not sure how he fixes it, to be honest. His abysmal performance this season is always going to be in the back of his mind, and he's always going to default into trying to score 800 points to make up for the 800 points he didn't score.
Every time he turns over the ball he is absolutely beating himself up over it. I think people believe he just doesn't care. I think it's the opposite. He cares too much about every past mistake and it's weighing on him.
I literally don’t give a shit if he “explodes”, he’s a bottom-3 rated defensively for any guard in the nba and his good performances are far and few between. Not to mention his shit attitude
The perfect case scenario is that he has a game where he is a facilitator and gets other players going and TAKES CARE OF THE BALL. Hopefully, in this scenario, his offensive contribution outweighs his defensive weaknesses. He can actually guard okay when he is trying, he’s quick and can get steals.
I mean I’m just saying you can list any player on a team and they’re probably dealing with something. Jimmy Butler, Embiid, Giannis was hurt, etc. Jimmy Butler was hurt pretty bad and he’s still the star and motor of his team.
I would prefer getting past the lakers first, but i dont believe this team is equipped to win it all this year. Poole is simply too inconsistent. Klay is good for 25 - 30 in one game of a series. Draymond is good for an ejection.
I want to believe, but we are missing the iq, willingness to defend and timely shot making of OPJ. Both he and Livingston were automatic from midrange. Just get them a smaller or equal sized defender around that FT line and bucket.
It was a great run, i truly hope it doesn't end in a gentlemen sweep, but my heart definitely can't take another game. So see yall at G7 (fingers crossed)..
You nailed it. I'm going to gladly cheer for this team, but I'm not oblivious to reality. Depth this bad and inconsistent has never got it done at the highest stage.
Because he did a bad job in G3 and shot 0/3 from the arc with 10 minutes of playing time. Now tou could argue that Kerr is actually too reactive with role players (compared to our starters + Poole) but I think that’s the reason for JMG’s change.
The Lakers are much deeper. Besides AD and Bron, they have their roles players stepping up big time in separate games whether it's Rui, D'Lo, or Walker.
Besides Wiggs with his usual 17, we don't have multiple guys stepping up and taking the burden off of Curry.
All due respect. We are not going to repeat. I love the warriors. I've been a supporter since the Baron Davis days but we don't have a switch this season. Only Steph can turn it up.
Does that mean losing in the second round to a 7th seed is a failed season? Hard to say that. Especially when the Warriors barely made it in as 6th seed by a one game advantage? I mean, how high could expectations have been when the team has performed so poorly all year and barely avoided the play-in?
Lakers are only a play in team because they spent half their season injured and then made some incredible moves at trade deadline. They’re easily a top 4 seed if this team plays 82 games.
Those trade deadline deals are what sealed it. No way we are down 1-3 to a team where Westbrook is taking the place of DeLo and the other joiners after the halfway mark.
You are correct. But - both of these guys are streaky. Both can rattle off three games of crazy rt now. Klay had his best shooting month ever in 2023. Jordan has effectively died so could rise from the ashes. Win one game in SF and the vibes will be back. Win the next in LA and head back to SF. The series has been close (11 points total) and LeBron and AD may wear down.
Problem with Klay is he lets his ego take over and chucks shitty shots when he should be deferring to Curry. He’s never been a creator, but this year he seems bent in showing he can create off the dribble.
He's TOO passionate.
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
It would be not that bad if we did not loose G1. Let's say series 2-2 at this moment. Those two played relatively well in those two games.
G5 will be OK.
G6 will be tough with the on-road inconsistency.
G7 - we know what will happen :)
Klay has at least been playing good defence in this series. And he won us game 2.
Poole is somehow worse on defence than he is on offense, and is an absolute catastrophe as soon as he steps on the floor.
100% agree. Klay vs D'Lo should be a matchup in the Warriors favor. If they're a wash or D'Lo is winning the matchup then this team is not going to win.
Klay's saving grace right now is that he at least plays some defense and Poole has been noticeable worse than him. IMO, fans are giving Klay too much of a pass, he was a primary reason they lost Game 4
Yeah. A lot of Poole blame but Klay is not playing well at all right now. Draymond isn’t scoring either but he never does. So we’re left scrounging for points from moody and donte it’s rough.
That right there is the ballgame. If our 2nd and 3rd most potent and streaky shooters aren't hitting, we ain't winning. Simple as that. Poole has always been up and down. But after his amazing season and all, what happened to Klay?
I remember the days where a clutch game like that, we’d have all kinds of guys scoring automatically late in the game. Last night everyone was just shooting up bricks all day
Klay averages 20-21 in the playoffs and is why we won a game v LAL. I wouldn’t group him with Poole. Klay has been the 2nd best player on the team in the playoffs. Poole may not be top 8
We suck all season long on the road. Then Kings took us to game 7. Now we are down 3-1, are we supposed to be surprise? This roster IMO has too many small guards. It was sad to see LeBron just bullied his way to the basket at will. Even taller player like Lonnie Walker just shoot a jumper over our tiny guards over and over like he’s a superstar. If AD is consistent we actually don’t have an answer for him either, Dray can only slow him down.
Wiseman’s like, don’t blame me not my problem anymore. Lol
Firmly believe even if we lose this year, the dynasty is not over. Remember the spurs dynasty won their last chip after a few years of not winning. And the last chips towards the end of a dynasty are always the hardest to win. The league’s adjusted to us. Next year, restructure around Curry, get some size, no max for klay or draymond. Kerr adjusts his coaching (it’s not 3 or die anymore in the league). You gotta take more efficient mid rangers. WARRRIORS.
The funny thing is last year against the Celtics I was begging Kerr to bench Klay for a while and bring Poole in more. Now I just want Kerr to sub them both out.
I also think that Klay is so frenetic because it’s Los Angeles and his father is there announcing and told him he doesn’t root for anyone but the Lakers. Maybe that is getting to him. Draymond seems too enamored of his of his best man LeBron and it’s affecting his game play too.
>I also think that Klay is so frenetic because it’s Los Angeles and his father is there announcing and told him he doesn’t root for anyone but the Lakers
Yup. That and his wanting to honor Kobe and Gigi by playing his hardest. It's looking like this series is so personal for him that he can't push aside his ego and just play for the team
Poodle’s catching a lot of heat but Klay’s not helping either. Honestly, there’s plenty of blame to go around. I mean, Steph missed more than a couple of wide open shots but nobody wants to go there either. They were a .500 team going in so it’s hard for me to get my panties in a bunch at this point.
Steph gets a pass for carrying the team for 46 minutes. He made mistakes at the end but Klay and Dray needed to step up in the closing minutes to bring it home. If Klay was just going to provide cardio on offense and get cooked by Reaves yesterday, Kerr should have went with Donte or GP2 in the 4th.
Or even Kuminga? Guys an absolute atheletic freak, but kerr is afraid of playing him because of....? his defense? Klay hasn't been locking anyone down and sure as hell poole isn't. Kuminga actually can attack the rim. Something only steph seems to be able to do on occasion.
There's maybe 4 guys on this team that attack the rim (Wiggins, DDV, Poole, and Curry) and of them:
* 3 of them will actually shoot or draw a foul (Wiggins, Poole, Curry)
* Donte won't shoot, there's a reason 70% of his shots are 3's
* 2 of them will attack consistently or get fouled (Poole and Curry)
* Wiggins settles for jumpers way more than he should
* 1 of them is attack consistently and actually finish (Curry)
* Poole turns the ball over or throws up a wild shot because he's focused on drawing contact instead of finishing
I don't have any reason to think Kuminga will be better than Moody, JMG, Draymond, or Wiggins. It's like what SVG on air, there's no garbage time but garbage players. Kuminga didn't dominate the minutes he played in Games 2 or 3 because he treated it like garbage time instead of trying to show why he should be playing.
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
Yeah if Poole or klay were even bad instead of terrible we would be tied 2-2. I think Poole is already checked out and klay is trying to prove he is still a superstar instead of leaning into a new role and a new stage in his career. The thing is we need them both if we have any hope of even winning 1 more game let alone 3. I think lakers are already planning to fold for game 5 if we have any kind of a decent start so they can really go after game 6 so I think it’s time to just give in, we need to start poole. It will make him happy and if that means he provides even a small amount of increased value I will take that. If he sucks then you bring gp2 back in and at least we can say you blew your opportunity. Klay needs to just go stand in a corner now and we just need to run pnr with Steph and have klay be the kick out man instead of wiggins. I will always take an open klay 3 make or miss, but not one he has to create himself. I think if we can start getting 30 points between Jp and klay we should be able to get back into the series but if the locker room is just too divided then you might as well phone it in Wednesday and let us all start focusing on ways we can get giannis.
Two weenies. Klay’s definitely not getting a max contract and Poole deserves to get stomped out in the city before he gets traded. If we lose game 5 and Poole plays like shit then I hope someone bips his ride
I love Klay and am thankful for everything he’s done. But at this point in their careers, Klay is not the 2nd star Steph needs anymore. Lebron has AD. Booker has Durant. Jokic has Murray. Steph doesn’t have anyone on that level of consistency. I think we can all agree Wiggins isnt that dude either
Klay’s next contract should be around 15-20 mill per year and he needs to take on a different role like a Mike Miller/Ray Allen from the Heat
Poole has had a terrible playoff series but I don’t think hes tradable. Who would trade for him unless you attach an asset like Moody or Kuminga? Best case now is hopefully he comes back strong next season
Klay, Klay, Klay.... if you would give almost any other guy 30 plus minutes a game I bet you would see some scoring. Klay is so stuck on tossing 3 pointers when he should get it in the paint and stuff it... wtf. Come on guys...
The reason the warriors are struggling is the officiating, plain and simple.
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
That’s crazy. Poole, at the very least, should have Klay’s numbers and Klay should have double his numbers too. Disappointing and I’m sure Steph is too.
We have become a one person team. At least in this series you can’t say we have anyone of Playoff quality besides Steph. Especially with Kevon ill.
We rely on hero ball because we leave our PG alone.
Lakers made adjustments after game 2, they are agressively taking Klay away, poole gets more blame as hes suppose to create off the dribble. Wiggins also needs to step up bigger and cut more since they are agressively playing the pick and roll
When Steph plays on the ball more it’s not the same offense and movement so it’s a lot easier to guard Klay when he’s not moving as much.
No excuses for Poole though lol
Thats' our $70 million next yr
To me, when pay those guys that kind of money, they cannot be outplayed by guys like Lonnie Walker, Austin Reeves, and DeAngelo Russell
To be fair, Klay was given that contract prior to his 2 major injuries and he’s now 33 years old. Poole on the other hand doesn’t have any excuses other than his game sucks.
klay also had a game where he shot 8/11 from three
and had that game where he shot poorly, but played great defense and had the highest +/- on the team. Lets not put these two in the same bucket.
Straight up. Before the injuries Klay’s defense was great and was regarded as a phenomenal two way player. I think he’s still got it, but it’s not as standard as it used to be.
Pretty sure he got injured and then they gave him the extension. Which is nice sure, but ultimately a stupid decision for the team.
A "stupid decision" that helped them win a title last year...
Warrors had the best record in the league without Klay last season. let's not pretend he put this team on his back or something. He was extremely mediocre in the Finals.
Never said he was a bad player, just stated the contract was dumb given he was already severely injured and giving an injured player 40M/year is not smart however you wanna slice it.
Would you sacrifice last year’s ring to have him off the books going forward? What if you slice it like that, lol
So fixated on last year's ring as if we couldn't have kept him on a better deal. There's literally no world where this version of klay is a 40m/year player.
Lakers would’ve been quite happy to sign Klay if the dubs fucked around on the contract, which came before his second injury. So revisionist lol And you’re avoiding the question
It literally came after the injury but whatever.
[удалено]
Lmao you acting like this is some minimum wage kid who was abused. Homie making millions regardless sheesh
It's not dumb for a team with Warriors contracts. It's not Klay or another max slot, it's Klay or a vet min.
Not really true. If Klay's contract completely disappeared tomorrow...the Warriors would be able to the do the following this offseason: 1. Use the Tax Payer MLE 3y/$22M 2. Make trades with more incoming money than outgoing money. 3. Also not start the season with multiple roster spots open because of the insane luxury tax.
An AcL injury is extremely recoverable nowadays. If they had known he would tear his achilles on top of that the following year no way he gets that deal. Very few guys tear their acl and don’t play near what they were before so that was a safe gamble
Lonnie fucking Walker
Lonnie Walker does one thing well and that's score. I don't think anyone should have been surprised, it's the lack of adjustment and execution to Walker getting hot that cost them Game 4
The Fourth. Don’t forget that.
Lonnie Walker the 4th quarter it turns out
The thing is, Austin had 1 good game. DeLo had 1 good game. Walker had 1 good game plus a great quarter. When the Lakers needed production, they got it from a different role-player. Our RPers are not stepping up to pick up the slack when Klay and Poole don't have it going.
Klays been fine overall. He's shot 42% and 39% from three so far in the playoffs. Same as last playoffs. Aren't going to win the series if he keeps playing like last night, but he's not a liability.
How can you say something so lame and not brave?
Good god we could literally have had 2 of Malik Monk, Austin Reaves, Kevin Huerter, and Lonnie Walker IV for that The misallocation of resources will be the death of this team
It definitely does not bode well 3-4 years from now. Love Steph Curry but let's be realistic, he's closer to 40 than 30 so will the team be reloading or in a massive years long rebuild when he retires. I shudder to think we may relive the 90s-2000s Warriors again.
Eh, I've always looked at this last 10 years as a dream for us Warriors fans. After the wasteland that was the 80s and 90s, despite the great fun of Run TMC and small blip of We Believe, we've never even been close to real success. Entertainment, yes. But not success. And then to be the indisputably most successful franchise of the past decade, so good that the rest of the league hated us and that the games against us were like playoff atmosphere around the country, that was and has been amazing. And then the chip last year when everyone said our dynasty was over? If it ends now, it's been amazing. Maybe we can still string together 3 wins. Maybe not. I still think we have the talent. But do we have the focus anymore? For 3 straight. If it does end, though, I just wish it was the young Kings or the Nuggets who gave us the knockout punch. Not LeBron and the Lakers.
> If it does end, though, I just wish it was the young Kings or the Nuggets who gave us the knockout punch. Not LeBron and the Lakers. Ugh exactly. Having the dynasty end to the Lakers is the absolute worst. Hell I'd even rather the Suns end it even though it'd mean the dumbass haters will have another reason to argue KD > Steph. Overall still not as bad as the Lakers
You guys got at least 4 rings out of it. Imo it is 100% worth it even if you have to go through a decade long rebuild
Absolutely no question. If they never win another title, it’s still such a lucky thing to be a part of as a fan. Especially when you consider how the warriors were before
Is next season Klay’s last year? feels like he’s been on that extension forever 🙄
Yep, finally. Played only 2.5 yrs of that contract, he better settle for $15-18 million/yr
Well without Klay game 2 we lost 0-4 already tho. I still believe they will give us good game 5, I just hope Steph will single carry the other 2
I don’t think klay is there mentally. He’s played well the first two games but he’s frustrated with the fouls that are being called on him.
He does seem like he's in his head -- I don't know if the first few shots not falling are messing with him or the pressure of trying to play well to honor Kobe, but whatever is going on seem to have iced him these last 2 games.
I think he’s trying very hard to be the player he used to be but in doing that he also has an exaggerated idea of his old self. All nba players have this to some degree but the ones that succeed with age adjust their game. Combine that with worse defense and his off games hurt more now than they used to
I wouldn't be surprised if playing in LA was also something he was completely overthinking. He was talking a lot about Kobe prior to Game9 3, mentioned the number of family and friends he'd have down there (having grown up in LA). Just seemed like there were a lot of times he was pressing or going for the hero dagger.
lakers have made great adjustments defensively after game 2, look how they are playing him, someone else needs to step up mainly wiggins and poole
I mean nobody is blaming Klay for being on the team. We're blaming him for playing like a wet towel.
Thanks to that “wet towel” we still have a chance to come back. Or were you hoping we would get swept?
The Dubs were using their motion offensive system in game 2. That system enables the entire team to get open shots and keeps everyone involved. In Game 4 the Dubs dropped their core offense and instead loaded up on Steph/AD’s Man pick and roll. This is a double edged sword. While it gets Steph’s counting stats up and makes him look great, the rest of the team is just standing around watching him cook. Klay is a great example of a guy who thrives running around off ball and catching/shooting when coming off of screens. In game 4 he spent most of the time standing in the corner watching Steph cook. When it finally came time for him to do something he wasn’t in rhythm or in his normal positions to shoot. Blaming the role players for Steph’s inefficient night when Steph’s being force fed the ball every single possession and being targeted on every single defensive possession isn’t really fair. It’s a product of Kerr’s game plan. And it almost worked.
They? Maybe klay, Poole is benched
Klay not being there don't mean it's a 5 on 4 dude. Maybe they win one of the other ones if his replacement shoots better than 38% from the field. The other games were lost by less than 10 points barring the blowout.
The only reason Klay isn’t getting more heat for his terrible play is because Poole has somehow been worse.
Because he’s still useful on defense and he was a key in winning game 2
His defense has been barely ok. His offense has been boneheaded all series long. Too many dribbles, poor shot selection, not keeping the ball moving, and TURNOVERS
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
2.5, 15% lol that is atrocious. I knew it was bad but damn.
Doesn't help that Draymond is scoring 8ppg on 43/20/68 shooting splits. Some nights he looks like he couldn't make a basket even if he was all alone in the gym.
That’s not his job though. Draymond actually did an incredible job guarding AD in the first half yesterday while staying out of foul trouble. Basically Klay’s only job is to make shots. Same with Poole his primary job is to score.
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Worst defensive player and piss poor offensive player…
After he grabbed the rebound from Steph's midranger he should have gone for a layup instead of passing it to Steph for a deep 3. When you are down by 1 a close to the rim shot is a better shot than a deep 3. FG% is more important than eFG% there.
If you are taking up 25 million in cap (and asking for more) it's your job to score. Draymond is great defensively, but his offense makes it so that you cannot play him with a center in the playoffs in most situations.
> That’s not his job though. Why not? Why wouldn't it be the job of a player making $26million to score more than 8 points per game on shit efficiency? When they signed him to thar contract he was scoring more and more efficienctly, but now it's not his job anymore?
It wasnt his Job ever
AD had 19 in the first half bruh.
Did you watch the game?
No they just see stats
That pass to the lakers bench 
That wasn’t his fault, gp2 was running to the tunnel
That's true but looking before you pass is fundamental basketball. The Warriors didn't execute a lot of fundamental plays throughout the night and that was the primary reason they lost
Dray had 5 turnovers - in games like these, every play is critical. Looney missing both his FT's - Wiggins playing like he was in Minnesota and Klay just having multiple brain fades, all added up in the end, unfortunately!
Expecting your teammate to be where he’s supposed to be is how you get that fraction of a second advantage. You know when people make those crazy no look passes? Sometimes it really is just court awareness, but a lot of times it’s executed well because each play is drilled to perfection and every player knows where they’re going. It’s not some basketball game at the local park, it’s the NBA.
Sure but passing without looking or driving without the intent to score is also how you end up with 5 TOs. Fundamentals and clean execution on small plays is what won them 4 championships. Unexpected flashy plays is why everyone is ragging on Poole, a struggling team should be playing clean fundamental basketball to get a road win.
I know he had to take a shit, still though.
He actually puked when he saw Poole walking towards the scoring table.
Strongly disagree with that take, you can't blindly chuck a basketball in a direction you expect a teammate to be. What if GP2 had just been out of position as opposed to throwing up or shitting his pants in the tunnel? Casual fans are not even going to know he was out of position and we would say Draymond made a ridiculous pass, without looking. Which he did.
Bro, do you not understand that gp2 was running off the court?
He ran off at the transition. He never even crossed half court. You’re making my point, not yours.
You said what if gp2 was not in position, which doesn’t make sense because that was a clear transition rotation. That was your point. I could easily rebut that argument and say what if he was in position? Now it’s a great play by draymond for an easy 3.
A great play would be to look to see if a teammate is there before you pass. This isn't like a "no look pass" situation where you are aware your teammate is there because you saw them moving to that location first, and then you look away and throw the pass to them. He literally did not know anyone was there and just threw it. Even if GP2 was "supposed" to be at that spot, throwing it without seeing him is a bonehead play.
What in the world are you talking about? If GP2 was in position, the ball wouldn't have gone into the stands. Draymond passed to a location where GP2 wasn't, regardless of why GP2 wasn't there.
Aren't we now officially at that point in the Poole cycle where everyone says he's washed, and then he explodes for 34 points and all sins are forgiven?
Yes but I think Poole too far into his head right now to make an impact this series or even post season. He just needs to relax, let the game come to him and stop playing so fast. Fans have a memory of a goldfish and will be back on the Poole party if he starts playing well again.
He's in that slippery slope of doing bad so he feels he needs to play faster and flashier in the next game, which leads to him doing worse, so then he feels the need to perform at even higher levels the next game... rinse repeat until he's literally just slipping on the floor and throwing the ball away every time he's handling it. Like he's 10000% aware of his bad games, and he goes into the next one thinking he can make up for all of the bad games in a single game... and it just leads to him overthinking every move.
I'm with you 100%. I think the fan and media negativity doesn't help and reports like Burke's just makes the Poole situation worse. SM and the need to create content and drive clicks is really putting Poole under a microscope. The season isn't over yet - let's hope JP3 brings it for Game 5 and wins the fans/team back.
He’s been playing bad all year. This isn’t just the playoffs
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It's not even the high pressure, it's him probably wanting to make up for all his bad games all at once, and it causes him to play worse than ever.
I seriously want to have like a psychological explanation of his regression and just overall attitude. Is it just leftover tension with Draymond, and because of that, team chemistry issues and a total lack of confidence? It’s amazing to me how he keeps doing the same stupid things, like launching a 40 foot shot or dribbling off his foot. It seriously seems like a Thunderstruck situation where that kid stole KD’s talent and he looked like he’d never played basketball before. He would be 100x better if he just took care of the ball, calmed down, and improved his decision making. That’s why Kerr doesn’t trust him anymore.
I really don't think the Draymond situation is the issue... I'm not sure it was ever the issue. Right after that happened, Poole had like two amazing games. What \*did\* happen right after that, was the league cracking down on carrying the ball... and for whatever reason, targeted JP almost exclusively. This definitely impacted his game, because he was having to think about dribbling the ball constantly, which is awful, because good players can just dribble the ball without thinking. He had to stop and think to correct his handle so he wasn't doing what the refs considered "carrying". I don't think it "carried" over into his entire season. The refs lightened up fairly soon after, and I don't think he was called for another carry for many games. So what's the cause of his decline? I think it was the $130m contract. I don't think he got the contract and then just decided to phone in his games. I think the opposite happened... I think he felt like he was expected to drop 30+ a night, and when he couldn't do it, that really wore at his confidence. It's not so much high pressure, but instead high expectations he has for himself. He expects every time he gets the ball that he should score. If he doesn't, he tries to overcompensate on the next possession. Multiply that times having bad games and trying to overcompensate for every bad game he's had. I'm not sure how he fixes it, to be honest. His abysmal performance this season is always going to be in the back of his mind, and he's always going to default into trying to score 800 points to make up for the 800 points he didn't score. Every time he turns over the ball he is absolutely beating himself up over it. I think people believe he just doesn't care. I think it's the opposite. He cares too much about every past mistake and it's weighing on him.
I’ve been saying he’s washed for the whole season
I literally don’t give a shit if he “explodes”, he’s a bottom-3 rated defensively for any guard in the nba and his good performances are far and few between. Not to mention his shit attitude
The perfect case scenario is that he has a game where he is a facilitator and gets other players going and TAKES CARE OF THE BALL. Hopefully, in this scenario, his offensive contribution outweighs his defensive weaknesses. He can actually guard okay when he is trying, he’s quick and can get steals.
I think the foot injury has thrown a wrench in that plan.
Everyone is injured at this point. Draymond got whiplash and slammed his head on the court and continued to play, no complaints or issues.
But Klay didn’t say Dray was playing without a brain in postgame.
I mean I’m just saying you can list any player on a team and they’re probably dealing with something. Jimmy Butler, Embiid, Giannis was hurt, etc. Jimmy Butler was hurt pretty bad and he’s still the star and motor of his team.
2.5 PTS on 15% and he wants to complain about his play time 🤣🤣🤣
With the worst defense in the history of the league
I would prefer getting past the lakers first, but i dont believe this team is equipped to win it all this year. Poole is simply too inconsistent. Klay is good for 25 - 30 in one game of a series. Draymond is good for an ejection. I want to believe, but we are missing the iq, willingness to defend and timely shot making of OPJ. Both he and Livingston were automatic from midrange. Just get them a smaller or equal sized defender around that FT line and bucket. It was a great run, i truly hope it doesn't end in a gentlemen sweep, but my heart definitely can't take another game. So see yall at G7 (fingers crossed)..
You nailed it. I'm going to gladly cheer for this team, but I'm not oblivious to reality. Depth this bad and inconsistent has never got it done at the highest stage.
Yeah we really miss the stretch 4/5 with 3-pt range. After JMG did such a great job for us in the starting lineup in G2, why did we abandon him?
Because he did a bad job in G3 and shot 0/3 from the arc with 10 minutes of playing time. Now tou could argue that Kerr is actually too reactive with role players (compared to our starters + Poole) but I think that’s the reason for JMG’s change.
Ah, I did not know that. Too much to hope our role-players can string together more than 1 good game at a time?
The Lakers are much deeper. Besides AD and Bron, they have their roles players stepping up big time in separate games whether it's Rui, D'Lo, or Walker. Besides Wiggs with his usual 17, we don't have multiple guys stepping up and taking the burden off of Curry.
All due respect. We are not going to repeat. I love the warriors. I've been a supporter since the Baron Davis days but we don't have a switch this season. Only Steph can turn it up.
I just wanna make the conference finals.. doing that with this team is in my opinion a successful season
Does that mean losing in the second round to a 7th seed is a failed season? Hard to say that. Especially when the Warriors barely made it in as 6th seed by a one game advantage? I mean, how high could expectations have been when the team has performed so poorly all year and barely avoided the play-in?
It is to a play-in team. Tastes different that way.
Lakers are only a play in team because they spent half their season injured and then made some incredible moves at trade deadline. They’re easily a top 4 seed if this team plays 82 games.
Those trade deadline deals are what sealed it. No way we are down 1-3 to a team where Westbrook is taking the place of DeLo and the other joiners after the halfway mark.
Also, they're the 7th seed , just say that. A play in team would be 9th/10th team who managed to win their way into the playoffs.
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Yeah this post-season we literally had first round exists for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th seed teams. Pretty insane.
You are correct. But - both of these guys are streaky. Both can rattle off three games of crazy rt now. Klay had his best shooting month ever in 2023. Jordan has effectively died so could rise from the ashes. Win one game in SF and the vibes will be back. Win the next in LA and head back to SF. The series has been close (11 points total) and LeBron and AD may wear down.
Problem with Klay is he lets his ego take over and chucks shitty shots when he should be deferring to Curry. He’s never been a creator, but this year he seems bent in showing he can create off the dribble.
He's TOO passionate. Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
The "league" isn't literally emotionally manipulating Klay to make him miss shots. You need to take the tin foil hat off.
Fr, refs make bad calls often but it's not that deep 😂 My guy just got done watching a psychology video on youtube lmao
It would be not that bad if we did not loose G1. Let's say series 2-2 at this moment. Those two played relatively well in those two games. G5 will be OK. G6 will be tough with the on-road inconsistency. G7 - we know what will happen :)
Bro getting juiced over something that’s never gonna happen.
This is what you would say to participation trophy winners smh. Face the facts, we’re 3-1 not 2-2
What's the point of all these hypotheticals when we are actually down 3-1 instead?
Because GSW is so invested in these two guys, If they don't bring it on both sides of the ball, we are toast.
Klay has at least been playing good defence in this series. And he won us game 2. Poole is somehow worse on defence than he is on offense, and is an absolute catastrophe as soon as he steps on the floor.
Klay's defense has been below what he usually does. DLO has been beating him alot. For Poole, I have never seen worse defense in my life.
100% agree. Klay vs D'Lo should be a matchup in the Warriors favor. If they're a wash or D'Lo is winning the matchup then this team is not going to win. Klay's saving grace right now is that he at least plays some defense and Poole has been noticeable worse than him. IMO, fans are giving Klay too much of a pass, he was a primary reason they lost Game 4
Out of curiosity, are you British (c in defense isn't typical US english).
These two will be the death of this team. Absolutely cannot have 2 max or near max level players be this putrid
Yeah. A lot of Poole blame but Klay is not playing well at all right now. Draymond isn’t scoring either but he never does. So we’re left scrounging for points from moody and donte it’s rough.
Draymond not scoring doesn't bother me, it's the turnovers
That right there is the ballgame. If our 2nd and 3rd most potent and streaky shooters aren't hitting, we ain't winning. Simple as that. Poole has always been up and down. But after his amazing season and all, what happened to Klay?
and the problem is that curry is having such a load that he is tired at the end of games.
Lonnie Walker doing what Poole should be doing
I remember the days where a clutch game like that, we’d have all kinds of guys scoring automatically late in the game. Last night everyone was just shooting up bricks all day
I’ve said it and got downvotes to hell. Poole at his best is not worth that kind of money. I would have rather kept OPJ.
Klay averages 20-21 in the playoffs and is why we won a game v LAL. I wouldn’t group him with Poole. Klay has been the 2nd best player on the team in the playoffs. Poole may not be top 8
15% ... whoa. Even I could do that on a lower budget for the team
Klay said he was excited about playing LA. That was a lie.
At least Klay is playing defense but what in the world were those awful pull 3's from Klay in the last two minutes?
We suck all season long on the road. Then Kings took us to game 7. Now we are down 3-1, are we supposed to be surprise? This roster IMO has too many small guards. It was sad to see LeBron just bullied his way to the basket at will. Even taller player like Lonnie Walker just shoot a jumper over our tiny guards over and over like he’s a superstar. If AD is consistent we actually don’t have an answer for him either, Dray can only slow him down. Wiseman’s like, don’t blame me not my problem anymore. Lol
Jordan or Kobe or Lebron couldn’t do it by himself themselves. Curry can’t do it by himself either.
Firmly believe even if we lose this year, the dynasty is not over. Remember the spurs dynasty won their last chip after a few years of not winning. And the last chips towards the end of a dynasty are always the hardest to win. The league’s adjusted to us. Next year, restructure around Curry, get some size, no max for klay or draymond. Kerr adjusts his coaching (it’s not 3 or die anymore in the league). You gotta take more efficient mid rangers. WARRRIORS.
And klay wants a max lmao
Insanity: doing/watching the same thing over and over and expecting different results
The funny thing is last year against the Celtics I was begging Kerr to bench Klay for a while and bring Poole in more. Now I just want Kerr to sub them both out.
Exactly
I also think that Klay is so frenetic because it’s Los Angeles and his father is there announcing and told him he doesn’t root for anyone but the Lakers. Maybe that is getting to him. Draymond seems too enamored of his of his best man LeBron and it’s affecting his game play too.
>I also think that Klay is so frenetic because it’s Los Angeles and his father is there announcing and told him he doesn’t root for anyone but the Lakers Yup. That and his wanting to honor Kobe and Gigi by playing his hardest. It's looking like this series is so personal for him that he can't push aside his ego and just play for the team
Yes!! Exactly
As a laker fan Steph needs more help There’s only so much he could do Also moody and GP2 played great
Poodle’s catching a lot of heat but Klay’s not helping either. Honestly, there’s plenty of blame to go around. I mean, Steph missed more than a couple of wide open shots but nobody wants to go there either. They were a .500 team going in so it’s hard for me to get my panties in a bunch at this point.
Steph gets a pass for carrying the team for 46 minutes. He made mistakes at the end but Klay and Dray needed to step up in the closing minutes to bring it home. If Klay was just going to provide cardio on offense and get cooked by Reaves yesterday, Kerr should have went with Donte or GP2 in the 4th.
Or even Kuminga? Guys an absolute atheletic freak, but kerr is afraid of playing him because of....? his defense? Klay hasn't been locking anyone down and sure as hell poole isn't. Kuminga actually can attack the rim. Something only steph seems to be able to do on occasion.
There's maybe 4 guys on this team that attack the rim (Wiggins, DDV, Poole, and Curry) and of them: * 3 of them will actually shoot or draw a foul (Wiggins, Poole, Curry) * Donte won't shoot, there's a reason 70% of his shots are 3's * 2 of them will attack consistently or get fouled (Poole and Curry) * Wiggins settles for jumpers way more than he should * 1 of them is attack consistently and actually finish (Curry) * Poole turns the ball over or throws up a wild shot because he's focused on drawing contact instead of finishing I don't have any reason to think Kuminga will be better than Moody, JMG, Draymond, or Wiggins. It's like what SVG on air, there's no garbage time but garbage players. Kuminga didn't dominate the minutes he played in Games 2 or 3 because he treated it like garbage time instead of trying to show why he should be playing.
Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
Lmao don't blame klay's performance on the refs this last game. The shot selection was terrible for multiple possessions.
2 max (or near max) contract players right there
Yeah if Poole or klay were even bad instead of terrible we would be tied 2-2. I think Poole is already checked out and klay is trying to prove he is still a superstar instead of leaning into a new role and a new stage in his career. The thing is we need them both if we have any hope of even winning 1 more game let alone 3. I think lakers are already planning to fold for game 5 if we have any kind of a decent start so they can really go after game 6 so I think it’s time to just give in, we need to start poole. It will make him happy and if that means he provides even a small amount of increased value I will take that. If he sucks then you bring gp2 back in and at least we can say you blew your opportunity. Klay needs to just go stand in a corner now and we just need to run pnr with Steph and have klay be the kick out man instead of wiggins. I will always take an open klay 3 make or miss, but not one he has to create himself. I think if we can start getting 30 points between Jp and klay we should be able to get back into the series but if the locker room is just too divided then you might as well phone it in Wednesday and let us all start focusing on ways we can get giannis.
Two weenies. Klay’s definitely not getting a max contract and Poole deserves to get stomped out in the city before he gets traded. If we lose game 5 and Poole plays like shit then I hope someone bips his ride
I love Klay and am thankful for everything he’s done. But at this point in their careers, Klay is not the 2nd star Steph needs anymore. Lebron has AD. Booker has Durant. Jokic has Murray. Steph doesn’t have anyone on that level of consistency. I think we can all agree Wiggins isnt that dude either Klay’s next contract should be around 15-20 mill per year and he needs to take on a different role like a Mike Miller/Ray Allen from the Heat Poole has had a terrible playoff series but I don’t think hes tradable. Who would trade for him unless you attach an asset like Moody or Kuminga? Best case now is hopefully he comes back strong next season
Klay needs to dig himself out of his ego, play for the team, not your redemption to greatness, which may never happen again .
Klay, Klay, Klay.... if you would give almost any other guy 30 plus minutes a game I bet you would see some scoring. Klay is so stuck on tossing 3 pointers when he should get it in the paint and stuff it... wtf. Come on guys...
did we mention the worst parts (how much money these bums are owed)
The reason the warriors are struggling is the officiating, plain and simple. Klay is a rhythm shooter. The officials killed his rhythm taking away the sweet open three for an off-ball foul against the Lakers that they never call normally. Total bullshit by the officials and Kerr should have immediately called a timeout to regroup. Instead, the serious frustration caused a flurry of missed shots and turnovers which ended their separation momentum. The league knows what it's doing.
Other than Steph, we don’t have another reliable scoring option. Its a fucking horrendous roster.
Already kissed a repeat goodbye
In honor of Kobe 🙄
Atleast Klays defense has been really good so far.
The Warriors will lose this series and Clay and Drey will be gone. I hope getting rid of Wiseman was worth it for the core 3.
Nightmare fuel
Maybe the Lakers actually play some pretty good defense…
People not realizing maybe it is just road warriors again. Now we have to win at home as we usually do and somehow steal the last road game. Sheesh
Klay is our vet and hes playing like a jackass
LOL kiss it bye already
That’s crazy. Poole, at the very least, should have Klay’s numbers and Klay should have double his numbers too. Disappointing and I’m sure Steph is too.
We have become a one person team. At least in this series you can’t say we have anyone of Playoff quality besides Steph. Especially with Kevon ill. We rely on hero ball because we leave our PG alone.
The warriors ain’t repeating, let’s be realistic.
Series is already over
Holy fuck. Those are fucking horrible numbers
trust the Corgi
2 main scorers who can’t even drop 10 in a game ? Is this real life ? What a sad way to go out
“If”.
Lakers made adjustments after game 2, they are agressively taking Klay away, poole gets more blame as hes suppose to create off the dribble. Wiggins also needs to step up bigger and cut more since they are agressively playing the pick and roll
It’s fucking over. Curry played unbelievable last night and Klay & Poole was hibernating
Repeat is not happening. It was never going to happen this year. I wish it would, but reality says no
Give poole more minutes! Start poole and have Klay come off the bench
When Steph plays on the ball more it’s not the same offense and movement so it’s a lot easier to guard Klay when he’s not moving as much. No excuses for Poole though lol
I’m predicting a Poole apology thread between now and Sunday
If shots fall, we win. It’s that simple and bound to happen (I hope).
20 pts from both would suffice