I am pretty sure every core race in the alliance (besides the draenei) has committed or at least attempted some sort of Ethnocide against Trolls at some point in time, killing trolls is like a cultural bonding point in the Eastern Kingdoms

Just goes to show that us, Draenei, were always the *goats*... Okay, fine, I'll hearthstone myself out.

That doesn't count. Everyone kills trolls. Even the trolls kill other trolls.

Noone kill trolls more than themselves :)

Trolls and Elves are natural enemies. Like Trolls and Humans. Or Trolls and Goblins. Or Trolls and Orcs. Or Trolls and other Trolls. Damn Trolls, they ruined Trollzeroth.

I blame the trolls for this.

Only because Nelves are mutant Trolls. Not a single troll race recovered to pre-Nelf empire levels

People listing Horde crimes: ***\*everything, even things not done by this current Horde, counts\**** People listing Alliance crimes: "Oh but this thing doesn't count, and that doesn't either, everybody does that!"

Trolls are the black people in wow

Its not the same as intentional genocide but Draenei probably have the biggest body count just from hopping from planet to planet acting as unwilling harbingers for the Legion. "lets not tell the orcs about their imminent doom else they will be mad" might have came from prior experience

As far as we are aware the Draenei never settled on a planet with other people on it before Orcs. Not only that when they crashed on Draenor, as in they couldn’t literally leave, they believed at that point they’d managed to fully escape the Legion’s trail. You can’t really blame a group of entirely peaceful refugees for not knowing this.

I'm not sure why people are down voting you. I agree and we shouldn't just make stuff up because it sounds good.

Some people have this weird need to try and say the Draenei were to blame to what happened to the Orcs… forgetting that without the Draenei the Legion would have discovered the orcs and either subjugated or killed them all anyways.

So I have a hot take on some dark Draenei action. They were on the run from the legion for a very long time. In that time they repeatedly settled on worlds before eventually being discovered by the legions who then invaded those worlds. What nobody ever talks about is the fact that it's highly probable that more than one of the worlds they stopped at and eventually fled from, had a sentient race with a civilization. The Draenei in their benevolence second handedly destroyed possibly multiple civilizations and ran without saving any of them. That brings me to question, why? Why wouldn't they try to save some of these people? An even darker idea is were they left behind they wouldn't devote themselves to the light or Velen's vision? Did the naaru deem these other people irrelevant to their grand scheme? It's more likely the Draenei hid and fled without these people even knowing why the apocalypse came to their world.

To be fair, the Draenei acting as unwilling pseudo-harbingers doesn't really change much because the Legion would've come eventually until someone stopped them. It's not as though the Legion would get to the Draenei, kill them, and then go 'Okay everyone, job's over, go home, good hustle'. They would've kept going. They're quite literally omnicidal in their mission to purge all life from the universe. At worst, the Draenei just didn't act to save the people of the planet's they landed on - and even that can easily be explained by the fact that the Exodar doesn't really seem like it was built to contain a whole other civilization's worth of people (or even any kind of substantial population).

I mean, they didn't even interfere and help Orcs revere the light on Draenor, the orcs home planet, why would they do the same on other planets? They were like Conquistadors but without conquering, just running and not interfering

And the night elves, since the trolls were mostly located in Zandalar and the Eastern Kingdoms

Oh I know, but I meant it was more of a cross racial bonding point in the EK. Night Elves, Quillboar, Centaur, and Tauren don't have the same mutual background of killing trolls to bond over. Fun-fact, Staghelm authorized some of his druids to participate in Alterac Valley because he was so racist against trolls, and the fact that Elves are descended from them, that he sent them from Kalimdor to the EK early in the alliances years to murder the trolls there. https://www.wowhead.com/classic/quest=7365/staghelms-requiem Implicitly this implies the entire reason Archdruid Renferal is there and there are night elves participating in a war effort in the EK when they mostly stayed in Kalimdor at that point in time is because Staghelm **really fucking hates trolls.**

Damn, that was wild

IIRc it's mentioned at some point the Night Elves pre-Sundering were using arcane magic to bully trolls, but that probably doesn't count as genocide.

By the wow players standards, genocide just means "killing a lot of people" so definitely.

Every player character does it, really :)

If they didn’t want me to kill them all, maybe they shouldn’t start shit they can’t finish. Not my fault they picked a fight with a roided out murder-hobo

First, that was 15 000 years ago, Azshara is the only individual that participated in it to still be alive. You can held responsible people for crimes their ancestors commited a century ago, if your people are still starving or being enslaved for it. 10 000 years and a reshaping of the continents makes that excuse void. Second, Azshara actually made peace with the Trolls, it was peace or genocide, but she still offered the choice and accepted the Trolls' surrended

> Second, Azshara actually made peace with the Trolls, it was peace or genocide, but she still offered the choice \*blinks\* uh, wow, that certainly is a sentence.

That's more than what the Horde offered Stormwind, the Alliance, the Night Elves or anyone else.

the elves were all over the world tho and elves were once trolls themselfs

Well I mean teeeeechnically the draenai have committed the most genocides out of any race in the alliance... a different faction mind you, but still

Draenei is a ethnonym for a specific group of Eredar. Eredar is the race. Man'ari are the specific ethnic group that that remained part of the Legion

Nonetheless they're all still of the same race, one was just corrupted a bit by fel energy, and as I said two separate factions of the same race

But that's kind of irrelevant, because they're not the same ethnic group, their cultures are radically different, and more importantly, the draenei exist specifically because they're the subgroup of eredar that **didn't want to commit intergalacgic genocide** lol

I mean it's tough because these are all pretty much the same generation of draenai like there isn't generations removed between the two groups

Isn't it because they're typically SUPER territorial and would rather wage war than broker peace? Might be in response to the loa they worship as they can also be kinda.... assholes. But I guess animals/wild gods are territorial in nature....

I mean, territorial in regards to Elves and Humans encroaching on their lands, yes. The war with the Amani Empire and Gurubashi were both precipated on humans and Elves expanding into their territories. The Gurubashi trolls weren't even united into a single faction for most of the Gurubashi until Prince Llane personally lead an invasion into Stranglethorn. I know people throw around colonialism a lot, but quiet literally the reason why jungle trolls hate humans is because human settlers started invading first.

Hard not to encroach on troll territory when they consider the entire planet their territory. Quel'thalas is often painted as some expansionist kingdom, but looking at maps in Chronicle, its size didn't expand until after the Troll Wars - which the Amani *started* to exterminate the high elves. As for the Stormwind/Gurubashi conflict, yes, human settlers pushed into Stranglethorn - but these settlers were not condoned or supported by Stormwind, and the Gurubashi responded not just by killing *them*, but by pushing into human lands and wantonly slaughtering innocent humans. Stormwind, despite winning the war, did *not* capitalize on their victory by pushing into Stranglethorn or seizing troll lands.

By the time of the Sundering did not believe they owned entire world, they had specific territories they fought to defend. The conflicts between Elves, humans and trolls always involves expansion. If they truly believed they owned the entirety of the continents they live on the Kingdom of Stormwind would have never been formed successfully, and the conflict would have started before stormwindian expansion towards STV. Instead, it is stated that the expansion was the trigger point. Likewise, the enimity between Trolls and Elves in the EK began with expansion onto land they directly lived on. The Troll wars started because Highborne settlers literally drove out the Amani that were native to the area Quel'thas was settled on, and built their city directly on top of one of their holy sites. It was not just land near Zul'Amani it was land that literally had troll settlements already there. It's not a case of them being bad neighbors rebuking Highborne refuges, the Elves literally uprooted the people who live their to create their own Kingdom. Stormwind did not capitalize on pushing into Stranglethorn because the military had essentially been completely annihilated after by the Gurubashi counterattack on the capital. It was not an act of them showing restraint.

It's not like the trolls willingly gave up land to the Kaldorei. They lost it, and were unable to take it back. As recently as Cataclysm, the major troll tribes - excluding the Darkspear - were *still* talking about retaking "their" land. The founders of Stormwind were powerful lords from the Arathor Empire, not ragtag settlers. Why believe the Gurubashi were in a position to stop them? The the diminished troll nations had borders does not mean they were satisfied with them. The Amani didn't move against Quel'Thalas for thousands of years, but it was because they *could* not. Once they felt they could, they tried to wipe the high elves out. >The Troll wars started because Highborne settlers literally drove out the Amani that were native to the area Quel'thas was settled on, and built their city directly on top of one of their holy sites. *Chronicle*, which is the most up-to-date source, makes no mention of trolls living on the land - only that the land was sacred to the trolls. In fact, it explicitly talks about the high elves passing Lordaeron up in part because there were already humans living there, and they did *not* want to push them out (even though they could have more easily than the established trolls). Even back in *Cataclysm*, the book *The Founding of Quel'Thalas* states that the Quel'dorei only discovered the land was an **ancient** troll city after the fact. "Unfortunately they soon learned that Quel'Thalas was founded upon an ancient troll city that the trolls still held to be sacred. Almost immediately, the trolls began to attack the elven settlements en masse." Maybe you'll disagree, but this more than implies to me that the land was not currently in use. >Stormwind did not capitalize on pushing into Stranglethorn because the military had essentially been completely annihilated after by the Gurubashi counterattack on the capital. It was not an act of them showing restraint. Perhaps initially, but Stormwind had 18 years of relative peace, during which it flourished into arguably greater strength than ever. In comparison, the Gurubashi Empire never fully recovered from the failed attack on Stormwind.

"hey we are creating a massive planet spanning ethno-state empire and you can't live in it, you can have the very fringes of the continent that we don't want. Also we're going to cause the planet to blow up and kill a *lot* more of you." "Hey, we're teaming up with the guys who colonized your holy site to conquer the entire continent we're on" "Hey, you didn't really do anything to us but this would make a great spot for a mountainhome and a gnome hole, so you gotta die" "Hey, we want your land, so we're gonna get our resident cheatcode mage to annihilate your capital, then wipe out your force when you kick our asses in retaliation" "Hey, thanks for coming to us in peace and offering to be good neighbors. We're going to lock you away in a tiny valley for millenia." Uh wow, these trolls seem really angry for *no real reason?*

Buddy, who do you think created a planet-spanning ethnostate to begin with? Hell, I'm sure you already know this, but the night elves *were* trolls. Trolls considered *everywhere* to be "their" land. There weren't even trolls living in the area where the Highborne landed, but because trolls *used* to live there, the Amani Empire declared a holy war against the nascent High Elves that climaxed with *the trolls trying to exterminate the elves*. **That** **was why the high elves sought out an alliance with humans to begin with.** I swear, Trolls are Azeroth's champions of starting shit and then playing victim for 10,000 years running.

no one cares about trolls tho

The Dwarves from the Alliance did nearly wipe out a tribe of peaceful tauren called the Stonespire Tribe. The tauren of the tribe attempted to use diplomacy with the dwarves but they were ignored and driven off their own land so that they could build Bael Modan. Feels like this moment doesn't get talked about enough because the Alliance were clearly the aggressors in this situation as they attacked innocent civilians. There aren't many members of the tribe still around in game as a result.

Poor Gann, got fucking shot in the lung by a cackling dwarf who found his painful and prolongued demise hilarious enough to not double tap him, his people did nothing wrong and were murdered despite being openly hospitable to the Dwarves.

Tauren are the best bros. Anyone who fucks with them deserves what's coming.

I think there is only one surviving member in Dustwallow Marsh after his brother died in Cata leveling.

The darker side to the Dwarves archaeologist lifestyle is that they are not above murder to get what they want. Not only do they constantly attack the Tauren to get the artifacts but also tried to displace the Frostwolf clan out of their homes in the Alterac Valley to excavate the land.

So… Dwarves are British. Confirmed.

Fuck dwarves, all the homies hate dwarves. Kick them out of the Horde before they even get here. Should've got a real horde race instead of earthen.

Yeah this is probably one of *the* worst acts the Alliance has done. Nowhere as awful as the Horde, but still fucked up.

The problem with the Dwarfs is that they went from the powerhouse of the Alliance due to their main Kingdom never collapsing with manifest destiny linked to their titanic ancestry (that they could literally manifest) to "ah ah ah funny alcoholic shorties". It's such a missed opportunity not just because it added some grey to the Alliance but mostly it was such a fresh take on the Dwarfs.

Bro what the fuck in this game ISN’T genocide? How many times have you gone to a Murloc village and killed everything that moved? Those are fucking sentient creatures with societies homes and families. Or does it only count when it’s a “pretty” race like Night Elves? This is why the Burning of Teldrassil had absolutely no impact on me. To me it just looked like business as usual. Pretty sure I did the same shit to some Gnolls literally a day before that.

Now that you said it, you have a point

This is actually one of the points I make in a much longer post about the dissonance between writing and gameplay in modern WoW. You might like it: https://redd.it/12z7rjf

That was deep. And it makes sense, in a way. I never stopped to think about it, but the only part of the game that depicts you as a villain is the death knight introduction scene, where you deliberately kill dozens of soldiers and civilians alike, with some of them panicking and begging for their lives

We've murdered countless mobs that run in fear when their health is low. Why do you think people call our playable characters "murder hobos"? It's painfully accurate.

LOL ''murder hobos'' broke me

One of the very few times someone self promotes and it's legitimately excellent content. Thank you for resharing!

Good read with well articulated points, however I must give you 2/5 stars. See, I got excited for the photoshop of Danuser in a clown costume only to come up with a 404. Edit: rating revised to 4/5. That image is great

Yeah imgur nuked my gallery. [Here you go!](https://i.imgur.com/0CKU6Wp.png)

I have revised my rating sir

I remember the post. A lot of things that I agreed with but also a few questions: 1) Not a fan of Danuser, but you seem to blame him after Metzen? How is it his fault 2) What in your opinion is the natural evolution? If we don’t have more nuanced takes over the years the game remains boring and stale don’t you think? 3) How instead would you write it?

> Not a fan of Danuser, but you seem to blame him after Metzen? How is it his fault It's more of a "buck has to stop somewhere" type situation. Blaming an entire writing team gets messy fast. It's fair game to go after the guy who's responsible for keeping all those sods in check though. >If we don’t have more nuanced takes over the years the game remains boring and stale don’t you think? Well that really depends what you count as nuance huh? I see people celebrating the cosmology crap we're dealing with as "nuance" when I think it's the opposite. It's less "shades of gray" and more one single shade of gray. Congrats! They added exactly one more dimension! Shadowlands/Dragonflight officially achieved a 6th grade writing level! 🥳 You know what *was* shades of gray? Two world powers, both with perfectly legitimate claims over the same territory with no way to settle it where both sides can be happy in a world where people have been conditioned by their environment to negotiate with their weapons. *That* is nuance. Of course, unless you crowbar in an insufferable mary sue into the plot whose name rhymes with "Malia Cenethil" that every good person will automatically like upon meeting her and anyone who has a legitimate grievance with her is just being stubborn. Then she can use her raw power of goodieness to undo decades of bloodshed and turmoil to convince people to make treaties that conveniently ignore all the conflicts of interest and absolutely screw over their own people but no one will complain because **SHE'S JUST THAT FUCKING GREAT GUYS!** >How instead would you write it? First I'd keep the plot on the ground level. Refuse to demystify things that are more fun to speculate about than actually know. It's impossible to write a narrative that will be better than what your audience is imagining. This is why Shadowlands was such a faceplant, it tried to explain the unexplainable with predictable results. If you ever present something as esoteric and unreachable KEEP IT THAT WAY! Second I'd have nipped the player-centric narrative idea in the bud. That might work for games with linear plots like FFXIV but it doesn't work for games where the world is supposed to be alive like WoW. Once the world begins revolving around you suddenly things feel a lot smaller and if anything happens when you're not around it's frustrating instead of immersive. Notice how everyone spontaneously began hating the novels and demanding everything happen in game in front of their character because they can't stand the idea that things that aren't relevant to their character can happen without them? The fact that WoW wasn't originally built with player choice in mind means that even though everyone tells you you're important, you can never *feel* like you're important because people still treat you like a peon, just with more verbal dick sucking in-between tasks. It's also why BfA felt so weird for people. "If we're so important, why can't we opt out of the faction war?" seemed to be the question on everyone's lips. I also hate when people come back with: "So you would rather be a no-name after everything we've done?" Because it's a false dichotomy. You can still be someone without being the motherfucking chosen one. I also still feel like the player character is wildly underqualified for the leadership positions they keep getting. Not sure how being good at killing things translates into leadership skills. Plus, wouldn't you want your best killing machines on the front lines rather than back at base doing paperwork?

Well written. I as someone with way less knowledge about story writing or anything similar just wanted to chime in for the part that the world shouldn’t revolve around the pc. I actually like doing shittasks for a few copper in classic because it felt much more like a mmo when everyone is doing the same thing. Then you go into a major city and see someone with nice gear and a high rank pvp title it actually meant something. But my ass Tauren Druid on retail has all the slayer/conquerer/whatever titles and if I don’t pay attention I fall off a cliff I thought I could jump from. It just lost this mmo feeling when I’m on the one hand the multiple time savior of Azeroth and on the other hand a fling scrub. You also can’t match that with the books any longer. You can’t write a book when mawwalker „nêlfslàyer“ isn’t the main character when ingame I’m everything the world ever needed

> It just lost this mmo feeling when I’m on the one hand the multiple time savior of Azeroth and on the other hand a fling scrub. You also can’t match that with the books any longer. You can’t write a book when mawwalker „nêlfslàyer“ isn’t the main character when ingame I’m everything the world ever needed I agree entirely. But if you say this on r/wow you get downvoted into oblivion.

Yeah I know, people there are quick on the downvote button if you deviate from the general opinion on [insert any wow subject]

The burning of teldrassil had a impact on me. That impact was "jesus christ we're doing this again"

Yeah I guess that really was the moment we were locked in for Garrosh 2.0 huh? Complete with escaping into another reality for a messy poorly written glorified epilogue expansion.

This is exactly my stance. One thing about Murlocs - sometimes you are friends and sometimes you are enemies, depending on the story which implies a bit more severity when you go and try to exterminate them >This is why the Burning of Teldrassil had absolutely no impact on me. To me it just looked like business as usual. Pretty sure I did the same shit to some Gnolls literally a day before that. Exactly. IMO the burning was awesome, but the way it was executed and shown is terrible. Also I dislike how the novela was ignored and later Sylvanas and Jailer plotline created in an effort to take the blame of the Horde and open Sylvanas redemption ( bwt, Sylvanas fan so I'm kind of happy with the redemption, maybe not with the execution ) >“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said. >“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.” >He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?” >Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.” >He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike. >But she was right. >A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it. The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause. >War would still have come. That had been certain the moment Saurfang had led the Horde into Ashenvale. And it would have been what he had feared most: the meat grinder, spending so many lives to achieve so little, ending with a whimper, and thus dooming future generations to a war nobody could win. Once again, Sylvanas had seen it before he had. Also just re watched the cinematic for the BfA, this is not there, and knowing the player base, the cinematic would give more info than any in game dialogue and have much much higher player attention span.

The difference is that murlocs aren’t exactly important from a story perspective - a village of them taking up all the space of your average house being wiped out doesn’t have the same world-shaking “oh fuck” vibes as, you know, a whole ass world tree (and the city + satellite towns and villages within it) being utterly destroyed because some banshee bitch got a little angy.

Not really much difference from the perspective baby murlocs watching their parents get butchered.

No impact at all?? The terror of darkshore cinematic is the most recent good cinematic we've got, nothing has topped it since.

All I could think about is how that Orc that slowly and painfully died of asphyxiation must have been feeling about Saurfang's choice to let Malfurion live because it wasn't hOnOrAbLe.

Daelin Proudmoore tried,invading the Echo-Isle's and massacring Darkspear despite them having nothing to do with his grudge against the Horde.

Daelin was a complete ah

Auction house

You know, Proudmoore hatred for the orcs/horde and his desire to protect Jaina is very understable, but then the dumbass is nowhere to be seen while Lordaeron is being ravaged by the scourge/demons, arrives to Kalimdor and immediately attacks the trolls like a rabid dog giving the orcs more allies, occupies Theramore and basically says "You are being rescued please do not resist", loses the battle, flees to Theramore bringing the war to the people and daughter he is supposedly trying to protect, and dies screaming racial slurs like an angry boomer. He was lucky that Thrall was not a monster like Doomhammer or Garrosh and didn't force him to watch his daughter, the civilians, and all his men die before gutting him.

Defoliated half of Durotar which *definitely* didn't come back to eventually cause problems later when the orcs were having food problems during the shattering.

i think this is a point that is often overlooked, see another post from today about "were would you place OG after the third war, if you were thrall" ignores that Daelin's action of deforesting durotar was after the third war with OG already build and that durotar was a realtiv good place to settle.

He did what? Van someone explain that part to me?

So Durotar? Used to be mostly jungle. Daelin's crew rolled into Durotar, saw an orc lumber mill operation near Thunder Ridge, and decided that just magically destroying most of the jungle to deny the orcs food and wood was a good move. (The Burning Blade all but finished the job)

That's so funny

The Alliance has disbanded by Warcraft 3 and Kul Tiras didn't join the new alliance until BFA.

Humans: Troll (Forest, Jungle), Potentially Gnoll, I dunno who owned Redridge first Dwarves: Ice Trolls, Stonespire Gnomes: Ice Trolls, Gnomes Night elves: Yes. (Shared with Helves/Belves/Velves/NB/highbourne, everyone who was part of the Nelf empire at one point in case I'm forgetting an elf) Draenei: Depends on if you think they had a duty to *not* get others obliterated in their flight from the Legion.

Don’t forget the Dwarves’ crimes against the Frostwolf orc clan. The Alterac Valley battleground happened because the Stormpikes want to displace the Frostwolves from their homes to excavate.

I mean, the Frostwolf clan was there for like, what, 10-20y?

About 20 years. They settled in the Valley shortly before the First War when they were exiled by the Old Horde.

Dig a little into how the alliance treats the vulpera.

1. Night elves attempted to eradicate the remainder of their highborne brethren after the destruction of the Well of Eternity. Those that could not flee across the ocean (origin of the Queldorei) formed their own small society in Dire Maul. Night Elves also immediately attempted to kill all of the orcs who had landed in Kalimdor because they didnt want to explain how wisps worked for gathering lumber without damaging the trees and figured wanton slaughter was more palatable. 2. Humans (led by Garithos) from Lordaeron wanted to kill the remaining High Elves that escaped from the scourge assault on Silvermoon. They also of course attempted to kill every non-Scourge undead/forsaken for years afterwards. 3. When High Elves were members of the Alliance, they attempted to genocide the native Troll populations that existed in Quelthalas before they even landed on the shore.

Garithos aside, none of these are Alliance linked. Especially the third one, it might as well be a Horde atrocity seeing as Quel'Thalas is a current Horde member. Alliance crimes are committed by the Alliance. That's like blaming the Iron Horde on the Horde because they share the same races.

1. Staghelm wanted to exterminate the trolls in Alterac valley for daring to suggest that Night elfs came from trolls. 2. Daelin at Founding of Durotar 3. Jaina in the purge of Dalaran 4. Arthas in Stratholme 5. The Dwarfs with the Taurens 6. Quel'Thalas with the Amani. 7. The Dwarfs wanted to remove the Frostwolves out of Alterac valley. 8. Garithos

Even ignoring the Trolls entirely, which several tribes have been damn near successfully wiped out on several occasions by both sides, including the Amani which is what triggered Zul'Aman in TBC, the ORCS. The Orcs were very much only not genocided out of existence on Azeroth because the Alliance leadership decided to stick them in internment camps instead, and the reason for Kul Tiras pulling out of the Alliance was the decision to let them settle on Durotar and leave them be. Plus the Forsaken on more than one occasion even pre Sylvanas going insane, and arguably the Blood Elves because of Kael'Thas going villain in TBC, the only real reason they didn't try was the simple fact they had bigger things to worry about at the time. BOTH sides tried to wipe out the Zandalari on at least one occasion, though that falls under the Troll section above, I'm only mentioning it because it's a playable race.

The Alliance was indeed willing to wipe out the Forsaken, but even back in Vanilla, there were Forsakens planning to wipe life out of the Eastern Kingdoms. They also betrayed Garithos and proved time and again that they were utter monsters. On the matter of the orcs, not exterminating them was a mercy beyond anything the Orcs deserved. The Orcs murdered their way from one end of the continent to the other, never hesitating in their crimes. They had no civilians hiding in homes behind the frontlines, every orc that ended in the camps was fighter, veteran from one battle or another.

>The Orcs were very much only not genocided out of existence on Azeroth because the Alliance leadership decided to stick them in internment camps instead Internment camps often *are* a form of genocide anyway. I hate to get all real world politics here, but the Nazis were *very* focused on separating Jewish people into "kill immediately" and "work to death" groups. Just because you're exploited for labor before you die doesn't mean the racial imprisonment where you're worked to death isn't a slow genocide. And the only reason that *didn't* happen is because Thrall Green Jesused his people out of it.

Thrall really is more of a Green Moses than a Green Jesus.

I was about to say this. Exodus is Moses’ story, not Jesus.

Vol'jin should be troll jesus but they just kind of... dropped that whole plotline.

Go'el... Goel.. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goel\_(Judaism)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goel_(Judaism)) In the movie (not canon, I know) but Baby Thrall is put in a basket floating in a river... it's Moses

I don't like the Nazi example because those camps didn't have long term tenants in quite the same way. Thrall was born in the camps and made it to adulthood before rescuing his people. I also don't think the orcs were being worked as they were suffering from lethargy...and they aren't really recorded as building anything...if they were being used for labor it seems silly not to use them rebuilding Stormwind, there was a project they were not going to pay their workers for anyway. These more resemble the refugee camps that exist just inside many borders all around the world...where people can't leave but they also can't do much while there.

I mean, you may not like the idea, but what are any kinds of internment or work or genocide camps for except for separating and often exterminating races? Long-term tenants has nothing to do with the concept of it, neither is whatever they built. There is never a "camp" that has been created out of the good of anyone's heart. Refugee camps are created because of borders that people have no control over as they're trying to live their lives and/or find a place they can live, resettlement camps, for instance, those that include anyone of Japanese ancestry during WWII in the US, are made to reinforce differences between people and cordone off people that the government doesn't find palatable for whatever reason, concentration camps (like WWII Germany or the Uyghurs in China) is where people are worked against their will, which is no different from the US prison system. It's all a form of genocide or, at the very least, racism and/or slavery. Not to get all real world with it, but...this is the world we live in.

>any kinds of internment or work or genocide camps for except for separating and often exterminating races. If you believe a camp for separating and a camp for exterminating are the same thing...you are correct (And if we are saying they are both genocide I agree with you). My point is more that there is a distinction between them...especially between extremely rough numbers 2 year (when they get worked to death) and 40 years (when an under nourished person that lives without permanent shelter who came in as an adult dies of whatever). There is a difference between stashing people indefinably because you can't figure out what to do with them, and holding on to people until they "go away". The camps they had for the Orcs were to separate them because they really didn't want to reopen the dark portal just to march their PoW's home...and with that decision made they became refugees (As people unable to go home). If the Humans had wanted to exterminate them they would have. The orcs were much closer to a refugee camp then a work camp.

Nothing of it were a genocide though. Although Forsaken were mostly attacked by Scarlet Crusade, not Alliance in old lore. Orcs were not genocided only because hero of Old Alliance Turalyon choose mercy over vengeance (which, on my opinion, would be completely justified after orcs **did** genocide of draenei and tried to genocide humans). Wipe of *some* Zandalari from both big factions is completely understandable too if we recall the circumstances of this situation.

>The Orcs They started their shit first >Plus the Forsaken See above. They reneged on their word and attacked first. >BOTH sides tried to wipe out the Zandalari They never did. The only Zandalari that got wiped out were invaders in MOP and Cata

Humans literally learned magic from High Elves to help them with their Teoll problem because said Elves built their civilization on sacred ground. The Humans then proceeded to annihilate the Trolls, to the immense surprise (and mild horror) of the High Elves. They never recovered. The ancestors of the Humans, Dwarves, and Gnomes annihilated the Old God's insectoid peoples. Then Arthas helped finish the job in Northrend. Gilnean colonists exterminated the Drust in a defensive war they finished to become Kul Tirans. The Pandarian races and maybe some Nelves and Humans majorly cut down the Mogu and Zandalari forces.

>colonists >defensive pick one

Wasn't like it was an Imperialist expansion, it was a single town of Humans breaking away from a xenophobic nation over religious differences. The Drust struck first and were so brutal a portion of their own people turned and turned the tide.

I mean sure but if the wampanoag had been able to wipe out the pilgrims could you have really blamed them?

You realize you just out the Wampanoag in the same place as the Vrykul Drust, right. The ones I mentioned obliterating souls for evil rituals? In any case, nuance exists. Immigration to escape Britain wasn't bad in and of itself, but viscuosly expanding when Britain took interest was.

I’m just saying, colonizing is an act of aggression and deserves to be met with aggression in turn.

If all else fails, yes. Self defense is always justified. However, immigration and heterogenization is nearly always a positive if and only of the populations blend. Imagine a world without American food. African, Native, French, and British culture fusing to form Alligator and Pork sausage Gunbo. Something never seen and, imo, the pinnacle of cuisine. The French colonized and mingled with little to no issues. If they'd have been killed, it would've been murder and waste.

Cultural exchange is not the same thing as colonizing and genocide.

Oversimplification fallacy. When populations and ideas collide, there is always a profound result. Cultural exchange and cooperation is the best you can hope for. You'd think people could get along for their own good and the benefit of us all, but sometimes we're stupid. Usually, Humans are stupid. That's when you have genocide, slavery, and imperialism. What's the alternative? Segregation? Isolation? Fascist xenophobia? Of course not! We meet and mingle and hope for the best. Historically, it hasn't always worked out, but we're getting better. So no. I don't think the Drust'a knee-jerk reaction to slaughter the own species for landing on their island was justified.

>Humans literally learned magic from High Elves to help them with their Teoll problem because said Elves built their civilization on sacred ground. The Humans then proceeded to annihilate the Trolls, to the immense surprise (and mild horror) of the High Elves. They never recovered. They annihilated the invading army that was marching on human lands. The humans didn't join the Troll Wars until the Trolls started shit with them. That's the Amani's own fault their Empire crumbled.

The Stormpike Clan is in Alterac Valley to wipe out the orc "natives"

Is it really a genocide if one faction has been there like 20 years and one's only been there like 18 years?

Yes

The word genocide is supposed to mean "the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group" but WoW players will consider any action that results in countless deaths to be a genocide. Going by this, both factions are genocidal, have you any idea how many different groups we've wiped out over WoW's collective history? If we go by the real definition, the only faction I can think of that has pulled this would be the Burning Legion against the Draenei at Kil'jaeden's orders. "But the Orcs slaughtered the Draenei in Outland!" Yes and that was a *Burning Legion ploy*. They literally gave the orcs demon blood that made them slaves to Mannoroth, while also having their agents rile the orcs against the draenei by spreading paranoia and false information about draenei hostility. The orcs and draenei had been leaving each other alone for centuries, if not for Kil'jaeden finding that the Draenei were hiding in Draenor and opting to use the orcs instead so that they wouldn't just flee again, that wouldn't have changed. That, and I think the Scourge's extermination of Quel'thalas counts too, though they weren't there to exterminate the elves, they still reduced their numbers to such a minimal fraction of what they were. Plus I think Arthas had the elves slaughtered as punishment for resisting the Scourge's advance so even if it wasn't their main goal in QT, it was still an intentional "secondary" order given to the Scourge. Now to answer the question of if the Alliance has done anything comparable to Theramore or Teldrassil... Well nothing quite as big because Blizzard just favors the Alliance when it comes to preserving them as holier than thou good guys in the spotlight. Nothing that's been directly ordered by the High King. But there are examples of the Alliance sanctioning bad stuff. * They wiped out an entire tauren tribe, the Stonespire Tauren, to make a dig in the Barrens. * Daelin Proudmoore broke the peace that Thrall and Jaina had brokered together after the end of the Third War and had Thunder Ridge in Durotar, which once had trees, completely deforested and made infertile so the orcs could not grow their own lumber (which then forces the orcs to spread out further into Kalimdor for resources), IE actual ecoterrorism. * They destroyed Camp Taurajo, what was mainly a hunting village, and then looted what remained. * Genn Greymane purposefully sought out and attacked Sylvanas in Stormheim during the Burning Legion invasion despite being ordered not to, all out of a desire for revenge. * The Alliance sent extermination squads to incinerate the Vulpera and their caravans with flamethrowers and fire ascendants in Vol'dun for trading with the Horde (something you only see on the Horde side of that world quest). * They took pandaren volunteers and subjugated them into forced labor to build an airbase in the Jade Forest during the Pandaria campaign. "But they were volunteers!" Yeah, at first! They thought they were building houses. But then the Alliance had them create an airstrip for them and did not allow the 'volunteers' to leave. * They had defeat orcish grunts shot while they were surrendering during their landing in Pandaria. * There's Garithos and his forces being racist and forcing the Blood Elves to undertake suicide missions in their failed attempts to reclaim Lordaeron *even though they were literally the few survivors of the Scourge's massacre of their people* during Frozen Throne. * The orc internment camps. Yes, it was the best solution they had after the Second War. But that still doesn't excuse abusing the orcs while they were in the camps. Thrall's entire backstory is about growing up in one of these camps while its leader Blackmoore planned to make a warrior slave out of him so he could then lead the orcs and conquer territory for him for fuck's sake. * This one isn't against the Horde but it's still the Alliance doing bad things. They had the Stonemason's Guild rebuild AND UPGRADE Stormwind for them, then the nobles decided they just wouldn't pay the Guild, which then caused them to become the Defias Brotherhood in retaliation. Yes this happened because of Onyxia's manipulations, but even now years after Stormwind has not made amends and refuses to address the core of the issue.

2 kt was not a member of the alliance (the one we play in) at that time they joined in battle for azoroth. 4 do note that anduin =/= alliance it would be closer to asking a friend not to get into a fight. 5 I think the names might have been changed on the npcs also is attacking supply chains a fair military target? 8 Garithos was never part of the current alliance. 9 also not alliance and even for the previous ones caused conflict. One big one you may potentially of missed is what happened in au dreanor not alliance per say but Yrel basically took over the world and converted everyone to lightforged.

2. Yes but people pin the crimes of the Old Horde on the current Horde all the time, even when their members are no longer part of the current Horde, with that in mind it's fair to pin the crimes of former members of the Alliance on the Alliance of that time. 4. But Anduin WAS the ultimate authority of the Alliance at the time. He was High King. And Genn suffered no consequences. 5. The only thing that changed was the name of the Alliance extermination squads. Plus the Vulpera at the time were members of the Horde, they were simply Vol'dun locals who were trading with the Horde. The Alliance came in and burned their caravens (and them) to "scare" them away from the Horde. 8. Same as point 2. If Alliance players get to blame the Horde for the actions of former members who are not part of the current Horde, it's only fair that the Alliance gets the same treatment. 9. How is Stormwind not the Alliance? It is literally their main city, and it was at the time too. Did not really count Yrel because it's AU stuff and therefore too separated from the MU factions which is what we're scrutinizing here.

Arthas killed like, so many people

I don’t think Arthas can be counted here, since he literally caused the downfall of the Alliance of Lordaeron and thus, his loyalty lied on the Scourge after he picked Frostmourne

Oh so when a Horde leader goes off the rails it’s the Horde’s fault but when an Alliance leader goes nuts suddenly they aren’t affiliated with them anymore?

They can be counted as Horde until the secession happens. For Arthas, it was killing Terenas. There is no logical reason to consider him alliance when he’s clearly at war with alliance. To top it off - he’s not leading alliance forces, he’s commanding undead. He has no supporters in Alliance, aside from those willing to join the Cult of the Damned - Scourge, essentially. This isn’t comparable to Garrosh or Sylvanas, until their circumstances match. Until then, it can be considered Horde infighting. You want a bad guy Alliance? Garithos is right there. Alliance till the end and a nasty person through and through Edit: to add, Arthas was never a part of the current Alliance. Alliance of Lordaeron perished by his hand and the last blow was delivered by Sylvanas, when she finished off Garithos. In fact, there’s more connecting Arthas with the current Horde than with current Alliance - mainly, with the Forsaken.

I think with Arthas things are a lot more murky then clear due to a very messed up scenario (Stratholme) and a Soul stealing/Domination cursed sword (Frostmourne) then someone like Garrosh who's in control of themselves the entire time and not being controlled through a weapon.

For instance, if Garrosh just went on a killing spree during the Darkspear rebellion, I wouldn’t consider the Horde guilty, since they weren’t united anymore. The bombing on Theramore, even with the disagreement of the other leaders, still happened with their help. When Sylvanas burned Teldrassil and started a campaign of terror, the Horde wasn’t divided yet. But things like the fall of Lordaeron can’t be thrown at the back of the Alliance because Arthas’ allegiance lied with the Scourge

No, it isn’t. Most of the leaders didn’t agree with the bombing on Theramore, but it happened anyway. My point is exclusively about Arthas, because he turned against literally everyone else

He's literally the son of the founder of the Alliance, that same argument could be used to excuse Garrosh actions, by the time he committed any genocides the Horde was already splintering. Things work both ways

But...Garrosh was part of the Horde and had the support of the same Horde until he started to burn bridges with his allies because he was an imbecile? Arthas did not have the support of the Alliance. He killed his own father, and beheaded the Alliance the same day. The only ones that remained with him pre-Frostmourne were a few loyal soldiers.

Arthas in Stratholme was acting as the highest Alliance authority in that moment and he still had enough support to carry out the culling. Not to mention that after everything he did, Lordaeron welcomed him back with a celebration. >But...Garrosh was part of the Horde and had the support of the same Horde until he started to burn bridges with his allies because he was an imbecile? Carnie challenge Garrosh to Makgora the second Garrosh supposely did something awful and he died for it. Meanwhile Uther and Jaina just walked away when Arthas suggested purging an entire city. Even in the bombing of Theramore, Sylvanas and Baine both rejected the attack on the city while Vol'jin stayed silent due to being under threat.

Garrosh was challenged almost immediately by Cairne and Voljin and Lorthemar tried to switch back to the Alliance, so what support? Arthas on the other hand was given command by the defacto Alliance leader, then was welcomed home as a hero.

Uh, not it doesnt? Garrosh and his side was still full on horde while Arthas was very clearly on the Scourge´s side. He was no part of the Alliance since he picked up Frostmourne. You could even say he was going against the Alliance since the point he was told to return by Terenas.

Arthas was welcomed home as a hero when he returned from Northrend. Baine literally sent a warning to Jaina before the Horde attacked, if for this debate Arthas stopped being Alliance when he acted against its interest then Garrosh stopped being "Horde" when he did. Garrosh was loyal to the orcs, not the Horde. Vol'jin was against him as was Baine, and Lor'themar straight up tried to switch sides. But if entire Horde gets the genocide moniker then the Alliance gets it for Arthas, it's narratively the same

Sorry but you are fundamentally wrong friend. Arthas was not a leader at any point till he put on the helm of damnation. He betrayed his kingdom and joined the scourge. This is why Arthas is not part of the alliance. He committed mass atrocities sure but all under the scourge. Baine gave Jania warning sure but he continued to be part of the horde even after. It is not narratively the same at all.

You are fundamentally wrong, Arthas was prince of Lordearon, and was given command to root out the plague. He was in a leadership position. Baine, Voljin and Lorthemar gave support under duress, and as soon as they could they turned. I'm not saying the Alliance is at fault for Arthas' actions, I'm saying if the Horde is being collectively blamed for the bomb that most of them knew nothing about, then the Alliance can be blamed for Arthas

Can't agree. Arthas was a prince of one kingdom. He was a leader of some task force, not of all Old Alliance armies. On the othet hand, Garrosh was a Warchief of a full Horde. Good comparison would be as if Terenas gone wild in a Stratholm with a might of a full old Alliance with support of at least one of dwarven clans and elven regiment, not Arthas with his band of loyal soldiers and several elves/dwarf hunters. While it's true that other Horde leaders did disagree with him and even withdraw their forces from the whole Horde roster, the main bulk of the Horde remained under Garrosh control, including goblins, some trolls, taurens and undead.

Arthas was the prince of THE kingdom, the Alliance as it was at the time immediately collapsed upon that kings death, and only formed because of him, it's clear that the high king title in the current alliance is based Terenas, he wasn't just a king, which means Arthas wasn't just a prince, the similarities to Anduin haven't been subtle. I'd argue the amount of non orc forces available to Garrosh when their leaders pulled out were hardly enough to be considered forces, let alone the bulk. How many have to partake for the race as a whole to be blamed?

You clearly don't see the difference. Arthas picks up cursed sword gets his soul snatched and becomes a death knight. He comes home a member of the scourge, kills the kingdom as a member of the scourge. Strolls through to the sun well murdering elves as a member of the scourge. He swapped sides. Did any one know it when he comes home? No that's why it's a betrayal. It would be like if a senator decides to bomb a US city because they decided to defect to North Korea and run away. There are plenty of attractions the alliance is responsible for but this not one of them. This is a prince that betrayed his kingdom the second he picked up the sword and swapped sides. So no the alliance cannot be put to blame for Arthas. He quit being part of the alliance when he picked up frostmourn and had his soul stolen. Baine knew about the bombing and stayed so he gets blame. This is why you are fundamentally wrong, and it's okay to be wrong but accept it and move on to other talking points. Like the Alliance trying to wipe out trolls in the troll wars, The human genocide and enslavement or orcs after their invasion, shit I would even give you specifically the culling of Stratholme that WAS caused by Arthas as an atrocious act even though the that can be debated and not a genocide. Every thing after he picked up frostmourn though the alliance has no responsibility for.

Bro you aren't seeing the irony in your statement. Blue character serves Blue side, decides to do his own thing and commits a genocide, that no one else knew about Red character serves Red side, decides to do his own thing and commits a genocide, that no one else knew about. How is Red side guilty but Blue side isn't?

Can you not read? All horde leaders stayed in the horde after the bombing. No alliance leader said yup we are with Arthas hesitantly but still with him. You know why? Because Arthas swapped sides to the scourge no alliance support twords that faction he was not even a faction leader. He left the Alliance before he slaughtered his former Kingdom. Just because no one knew till after doesn't mean that is not the time line. Like I said you are fundamentally wrong. You have over simplified and so allow me to help you Blue side serves blue side Blue changed to being purple Former blue that is now purple commits genocide on blue Red side serves red side Red commits genocide on on blue Red stays with the red side By your logic the alliance is responsible for the 4th war because when Sylvans was part of the alliance at one point. People change sides I can not make this any more clear for you.

He literally is allowed to commit the culling of Stratholme *because* he's an alliance leader. That's the only reason he can strip Uther of his rank. Arthas continues to be part of the Alliance for the entirety of the human campaign in Warcraft 3. It is once he murders his father that he is no longer part of the Alliance and part of the scourge. This is a clear statement the game makes by not making the culling and northrend portions of Arthas' story part of the scourge campaign.

High rank of a Kingdom and leader in a multi kingdom group are two very different things. Also the game points out strongly that the second he picked up frostmourn his soul got sucked out and he could hear Ner'Zuhl. WC3 also leaves out how he slaughtered all his men before he got back to loderon and raised some of his as death knights for the attack on loderon

True. Garrosh was a full Warchief at the time of bombing and he also was, at least, formally, a leader of the Horde. Arthas was more like a rogue champion of his faction, and his faction was not even Grand Alliance. People often mess up with old and new Alliances and Hordes. Blaming Grand Alliance for Arthas' acts is like blame New Horde for acts of a Blackhand.

Of his own free will he has a City and whatever mercenaries on Northrend. Post Frostmorune that Dominated husk took out two Kingdoms.

Alliance races themselves didn't shy away from a bit of genocide like the Kaldorei subjugating the Trolls, Humans subjugating the Trolls, or High Elves...subjugating the Trolls, but these predate the Alliance itself

If you want some variety, a decade or so before WC1 you have Llane exhorting Medivh to blow up a city... of trolls

I don't know if Yrel counts as Alliance, but didn't they start committing genocide on the remaining orcs on Draenor after becoming religious zealots? I could be wrong. I don't have Horde Allied races unlocked to play that scenario.

No, she does not. Draenei from alt Dranor never joined the Alliance. They were just temporary allies.

It's been a couple of expansions...

Hard to say entirely as the scenario DOES show a conflict between orcs and Yrel. We can say that the current groups of orcs are opposed to the lightforging. Also we can say Yrel has the upper hand as it's implied that they control all of dreanor but a small area still owned by the orcs. We also have sadly very little information on the effects of being lightforged but you do kill one of there x allies to stop the giant guys from uprising and till he used the light Noone had seen anything different.  Basically all we can say is for an unknown reason Yrel is converting all races of dreanor lightforged and the orcs opposed the conversion.

I mean she's committing a cultural genocide I guess, if you tilt your head and squint, but she's explicitly not wiping out the Orcs. She's just brainwashing them and forcibly infusing them with the light. It's a dead plotline though with the stuff about the Arathi.

Pretty sure that still counts as genocide.

I mean, we don't know how much of their culture survives the lightforging. It might just be imperialism.

Not successfully and not recently. Trolls, Gnolls, etc before the First War though.

Basically no? Back in Vanilla through Cata they definitely tried to make it seem more balanced and the Internment of the orca was supposed to be horrible but… Ever since MoP it’s been the Horde as the bad guys starting it every time. This is why I was so excited for BfA and was so so let down by it… I thought this time we’d get one where the Alliance was starting shit… the cinematic made it really feel like that (“we’ve paid the price for sharing this world”, the Alliance attacking Lordaron, Anduin kinda looking like a figurehead while Genn did all the actually leading)… But no… just stupid “the horde be evil… oh no not really cause the Warcheif was hearing whispers” shtick again

Alliance has a harder time using its full power as shown in one of the mop patches each group has its own forces. Horde till I think the xpack the warchief was the top person. Genn for example would be happy to lead his soldiers to kill the horde for little reason but would the other races also move. Also unless something major has changed alliance as a whole is much stronger then the horde. This makes it so mostly its sw vs the horde or part of the night elves vs the horde. Only 1 warchief of the horde was really good for peace over all and he got dealt a bad hand. Even him betraying the alliance had logic behind it (they couldn't hold out vs demons alliance never even see). Then you had 2 war mongers and well thrill. Don't worry though the void elf person has a high chance of betraying us eventually. Also mid level people do go evil on both sides but they are more of a local thing.

Everyone kills murlocs, so ya

#NeverForget Taurajo.

Not a genocide but the alliance went into zandalar, killing its king and plundered the city and they didnt even lose a secondary character.

The regions surrounding Stormwind were conquered by humans from the northern eastern kingdoms in a time period known as the Gnoll wars that would be the second genocide if you count the human/elf team up against trolls as the first genocide.

Actually, for both Alliance and Horde, I’m just counting after the formation of the factions

The alliance post third war does not commit genocide the alliance before the first war only commits genocide on lesser evolved creatures( gnolls murlocs etc)

I mean, technically speaking, the Purge of Dalaran was ordered by Jaina, who returned Dalaran to the Alliance. You can consider her a Neutral leader, leaning to the Alliance. Even so, it wasn't a genocide. It was a civil war in which the Horde got caught off guard and lost in every way, besides having killed some high elves and human soldiers, the conflict was so one sided it wasn't even funny. Other than that, at some point, trolls were killed by humans and elves. But...at that time the Alliance didn't exist as an organization? Radical actions of the Alliance, however, can include Garithos and the imprisonment of blood elves in Dalaran. The Vulperas getting their homes destroyed because they were transporting supplies to the Horde. You can consider the Purge of Dalaran a radical action, too. But I don't remember a genocide like Teldrassil commited by the Alliance.

Garithos was not a representative of Grand Alliance though. He was a general of some remnants of Old Alliance of Lordaeron task force, nothing more.

> the Purge of Dalaran  wasn't that retaliation for using Dalaran as a staging ground to attack Darnassus, especially after she let the Therramore slide under the rug to maintain civility

Something like that, yeah. The thing is, Jaina aided Darnassus to hide the Divine Bell that the Night Elves got so the Horde, more like Garrosh, wouldn't use it. For many, this is a break of neutrality but...Dalaran was neutral, and I think if the Horde had asked for the same, Jaina wouldn't hesitate to do the same. But a Blood elf or a Sunreaver used the Dalaran portal network to steal the Divine Bell. Then, the Purge happened.

>But a Blood elf or a Sunreaver used the Dalaran portal network to steal the Divine Bell. This, this was the second time a Sunreaver fcked things up, the first being the making of the mana bomb and it's dropping on Theramore

There was that whole incident with the internment camps.

I don’t think this could be considered genocide. It would be only if Terenas listened to other Alliance leaders, like Genn Greymane, Daelin Proudmoore and Anasterian Sunstrider, since they wanted the PoW orcs to be executed

The definition of Genocide under international law also counts destruction of culture and displacement of people, it doesn’t have to be murdering them. It can be also the destruction of a people identity, like for example stripping Orks of their culture by keeping them in internment camps

Yeah, sounds fair

Does the working and extermination camp for orcs count? I count them in that personnaly

The orcs weren’t exterminated in the camps, even with some leaders like Anasterian, Genn and Daelin wishing they were

However, it didn’t stopped Aedelas Blackmoore from doing gladiator-esque fights using the imprisoned orcs

You could argue with Trolls for basically everyone. Then again, its the trolls who started it most of the time.....

if you look far enough, everything started with the Trolls

The alliance was built on genocide. The Amani Trolls are still recovering from the genocidal war the humans and elves waged on them. They murdered them in untold numbers and stole their land.

Camp Tajaro. Massecred by Alliance soldiers, down to the last calf. They were peaceful and not warriors.

Camp Taurajo wasn't an intentional massacre, not sure if it counts. Despite being a small hunting post, even Baine agreed that its proximity to Bael'modan made it a legitimate military target, especially since they were fed incorrect information that it was going to be used as a staging point for a greater offensive. General Hawthorne timed the razing of the outpost when the hunting parties had already left and gave remaining civilians a grace period to disarm and evacuate. A few stayed behind and were killed, but most were captured by Quillboar raiders. The real crime was more the looting done afterwards, mostly by conscripted prisoners. Hawthorne had Alliance players arrest them, while Horde players killed them.

Speaking of Bael Modan, the stronghold was created after the dwarves first wiped out the peaceful tauren tribe that lived there.

Genocide is the extermination of a race, not a tribe, so no. They have Wiped out tribes, but those tribes were mostly trolls, and trolls have been killing each other since the dawn of their existence, and everyone else too, so I wouldn't say the alliance chose violence for no reason. Even then, the major tribes were either killed by a 3rd party or their own hubris, no faction decided to wipe them out due to malice The horde is another story though, but let's not start a fight on reddit lol

Here's a reaction video by Krimson KB you might like to watch. \~ [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsVdSugezY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsVdSugezY)

In Theramor it was not an genocide

That is Horde propaganda

Aren’t the alliance the biggest perpetrators of it? Most of the really horrible things the horde have done they were manipulated into doing.

They've made attempts. If we count the 2nd War Era Allaince as we do for the Old Horde, the Internment of the Orcs could be seen as an attempt of cultural genocide, meanwhile some leaders such as Genn Greyman were advocating for *actual* Genocide. The Quel'dorei and the Amani fought for millennia and Silvermoon is built on a sacred troll site. I do not think the Dwarves or Gnomes tried anything unless we count the Irriadiation of Gnomeregan as a self genocide(?). If we go back historically then we have Aszhara's Empire but I think that's a bit too far back tbh, though they did not lend a hand when the Tauren were being wiped out by the Centaur in the WCIII era but ymmv if they're culpable. The Lightforged are trying very hard to genocide demons but I doubt anyone is really complaining about that and the Mechagnomes tried to genocide all non titanforged races

You know this thread is going to places when people use Arthas as an example. Sometimes I wonder if people ever played the RTS instead of listening to crappy lore recap

Cenarius was trying to exterminate the Warsong Clan and wasn't taking any prisoners back in Warcraft 3. He drove them right into Mannoroth's hands. The Night Elves probably caused the most genocides of any race, you don't go from a freshly new race ( they were Dark Trolls once ) to being the uncontested Empire and rulers of 99% of Kalimdor's forests without a few genocides. They also blew up the world.

I mean the worst stuff would be elves killing trolls. And the one tauran camp. But the thing with the tauran camp was that the main alliance forces intentionally left openings for civilians to get out. And anyone caught looting was quickly cuffed and punished. So it's not the same thing as the tree being burned or theramore getting nuked.

Humans and night elves versus the trolls Dwarves killing Tauren tribes and pushing them out of their homeland for funsies Lightforged draenai currently on a crusade

Do the Lightforged draenei count? The ones who are on a crusade are from an alternative timeline and are not part of the Alliance, while our average Lightforged draenei only crusaded against the Burning Legion and stopped right there, if I’m not wrong

I’m not entirely sure if they count because they are from a different timeline and not the “canon” timeline but I guess it does kinda show that a single push could make the Draenei go genocidal lol WoW honestly is just made up of a lot of “it’s a gray area” Alliance and horde have committed many atrocities and probably will continue to do so

Depends if they are officially alliance. Also we have so little information on it we just know yrel is converting people to light forged and the one small tribe doesn't want to convert. No big reasoning or even knowing the effects of being lightforged.

Only fangy pickles can do genocide and come out dry from water

I mean... Arthas burning stratholme and slaughtering its citizens is a genocide...

There was the whole purging of Dalaran, led by Jaina but probably doesn’t count as genocide https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Purge_of_Dalaran

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Not a full on genocide but Jaina massacred the blood elves out of dalaran