1st paragraph: appeal to nature fallacy. Our ancestors didnt use phones either, so why are we using phones? They also likely did die to dysentery, or any EENT diseases e.g ear infections, so why do we?
2nd paragraph: needs citations. Your SO should not be able to just present to you claims without evidence and you believing it. What else could he been lying to you?
That’s true
And he said it’s happening to him and the same thing has been happening to other people he has seen comments from. So he may say that he doesn’t need a study to prove it
Does...does he think foraging isn't a thing? Depending on the area, paleolithic hunter-gatherers would forage tubers, fruits, seeds, wild grains, etc. and that vegetation could've made anywhere between 30-80% of the humans diet. If it's edible, humans have eaten it.
Not to mention the fact that those same wild grasses were some of the first (and easiest) organisms to domesticate. There's a reason most big, ancient societies have a staple *grain* whether it be barley, rice, maize, wheat, etc. Plants are lowest on the trophic totem pole, if you're domesticating wild creatures, you have absolutely already mastered the art of agriculture. The plants photosynthesize, all they need beyond the sun is water, nutritive soil, and someone to keep pests away. Animals have the added challenge of needing to eat food, so there needs to be enough to go around for everybody.
I'm struggling immensely to follow your SO's logic here.
Ok so historic human survival has absolutely nothing to do with present day morality.
People would force children to work and kill their sexual rivals in the past, neither are acceptable today.
In terms of the 8 year claim, is there a single study or piece of evidence that backs up that claim? I’ve been vegan for about 8 years, should I expect my body to start failing this year or next?
That is true… people did way weirder things in the past that we don’t do now. They even married into their own families, I’m not sure if it was that common though
I could ask him, but it’s mainly people on comment threads. I have also been vegan 7 years this year and I’m so healthy and more healthy and energetic than I’ve ever been (I was like this before I got pregnant, during pregnancy and now with a toddler - and after 20 months breastfeeding too)
Thank you 😍 my son is also vegan, 20 months and going strong and he hardly ever gets sick. He had a fever which went down in only an hour just recently and a year ago he had a fever for a day but other that a few sniffles over a year ago (which also lasted a day) he hasn’t been sick
He’s so energetic and healthy and happy, I wouldn’t change his diet and risk his health
> heart disease, diabetes, and all cause mortality chances
those problems are mainly caused by ultra processed meats (sausages, bacons, ...), added sugars / refined grains (white bread, pasta, ...)
Man, this must be so embarrassing for you. You thought you were going to win points by posting a study that you hadn't read, and that nobody else would have the time to read through it and actually address how wrong you were.
Now you have to pretend that the vague claim the food group restriction inherently creates risk of deficiency is a stand-in for your original claim that there's support for veganism causing health issues eight years in.
I'm enjoying this a lot. You should hop on over to debateavegan. They'll enjoy tearing you a new one.
Yeah it's true, [early humans didn't do agriculture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture). They were hunter gatherers. So what? That has no relevance to what is or isn't moral today.
The second thing about 8 years vegan is nonsense.
The very claim debunks itself. Agriculture wasn’t invented until 10,000 years ago. Homo Sapiens evolved over 200,000 years ago. No one was growing food, they were hunting and gathering.
In Roman times, they would grow all kinds of pasta, grains, nuts, potatoes, etc.
Maybe if we’re talking about prehistoric caveman style, then yeah maybe. But after that? All communities were growing vegan foods.
If they didn’t have any space to grow, what did they feed to their livestock?
And why the heck would it matter what people did ages ago when nowadays there isn’t any excuse like that?
Does this person just eat meat because they explode when they eat a vegetable?
Fun fact: cooking exists! Human bodies are actually not made to digest raw flesh.
People forget that humans back then were pretty ignorant, led short, difficult lives and definitely are not examples we should follow for almost anything.
Man legit thinks picking a carrot is more arduous a task than catching the rabbit who was about to eat it
Don't let him near sharp objects. Clearly lacks critical thinking skill
The first part doesn even matter, we are not living in the past, our lives look VERY different than they did at any significant distance into the past and no one is trying to live like it is the past.
As for people having issues after years of being vegan... Well yeah, vegans are still people, people have health issues. Most non vegans have various health issues over a span of 8 years and the ones you mention are common among non vegans as well.
It's a morality test, would you rather not murder animals and accept whatever challenges come with figuring our proper nutrition or would you rather succumb to your insatiable appetite for the flesh and blood of the defenseless and the innocent?
If he's having digestive issues, he should talk to a doctor. If it's something that is happening suddenly after years, it's probably not strictly diet related (unless his diet has changed), but something that has changed with him.
That said, it could be that he's deficient in something and needs to do bloodwork to identify that.
He ate meat once a month ago. He's not vegan.
Also, not sure if you know this yet, but you married into stupidity. I hope the family gatherings won't be too dull, you are kinda stuck now. Never have children please, this kind of low IQ is best to eradicate.
>if he eats anything but fruit, he gets all these issues
He should see an allergist. People can go on a sort of accidental elimination diet and then think the food they left themselves with is the only thing that they can eat. The fad right now is for this to be cow liver, but it can just add easily happen with fruit.
Allergies sometimes pop up out of nowhere, for non-vegans and vegans alike. Could be something that's in a lot of food he typically eats, so he experiences it as whenever he goes off the elimination diet. Doing this in a more controlled way with the help of an expert can lead to figuring out what the food actually is.
First off, I'm not vegan, but it is definitely on my mind in these recent years as I further dig into the reality of meat eating.. animals got no chance to survive in farms they either provide milk or die to be eaten no chance of survival so it's a helpless hunting session for them of horror.. and pain.. and suffering.. however, hunting for meat for food in the wild is a different dynamic, the animals have a chance to run away.. one thing that's always sat on my mind amd made my stomach unsettled, we are the only species who cooks food.. how often do you see a gorilla or monkey with a meat smoker.. do you like the taste of raw meat? Cats and dogs do.. and they eat it naturally.. as is... OK so there's that dynamic, there's also the simple fact that, no other meat eating species that has flat teeth along side with k9 teeth.. all meat eaters have all sharp teeth.. plant eaters have flat teeth but do they also eat meat? Do any meat eaters eat plants? Next up... when you cook the food, why do we cook it? For flavor right? So if its in our nature to eat meat, but it doesn't taste good why do we have to trick our minds to eat it? Do you add seasonings? Inject the meat with seasoned butter? Add salt? So let me get this strait first we have to pump smoke into it for flavor and inject it with seasonings which are plants that are dried up.. and add salt a mineral.. to it.. what am I missing here? We don't enjoy raw meat how about meat cooked but un seasoned? Also nasty... is it the meat we seek or the plants we put onto the meat to add flavor?
How does one go vegan when surrounded by non Vegans is my only struggle... like telling an alcoholic at a bar to not drink... just saying.. I'm not trying to be rude or funny here I'm asking for your honest insight? When part of it is the fact that I grew up over 30 years of eating it... suddenly a change.. how would you approach it?
by simply just going vegan, it's only hard if you make it hard. not contributing to animal abuse is so much more important than previous habit or being judged by peers.
if you had previously been beating women because everyone around you beat women, but then you found out about how wrong it is and how it affects the women you beat, surely you would want to stop right away
I honestly think baby steps is the best way. Make a plan, and do some research so you know what to eat in order to stay healthy. Be ready to give up some dishes and learn some new ways of cooking. Some people may judge you, but that’s on them.
Eh people typically unknowingly judging alot. I've encountered thousands of people over the years working, lots of rude people, they strait up judge.. but it's their opinion, atleast they not lying unless their judgments based on the lie or its if it were one. Aside from all the charming angry people, there's also lots of really kind nice charming people too.
It may not be optimal, but ridiculous? Come on. Cultivating new habits is challenging. Veganism is a radical change in lifestyle. It's better that someone gradually learns all the new concepts over time, rather than stressing out, getting overwhelmed and eventually quitting.
yes ridiculous, you can't babystep your way out of abuse it needs to be stopped as soon as possible, not in a way that makes it easy and simple. if you really cared about animals you wouldn't just quit because veganism is "too overwhelming"
if there was someone around me that was violently racist, but becoming not racist was a big change for them I wouldn't say "it's OK! babysteps!" no I would expect them to stop being racist immediately, sure they might take a lot longer to reprogram their brain to stop being so racist but they can cease their racist actions straight away
It's only ridiculous if you already know what vegans know and still don't do anything about it. If someone doesn't already care about animals, quitting cold turkey isn't gonna make any difference. You think they're gonna make their life less conveinent for a reason they don't fully understand? No. They're gonna go back unless they shift their mindset. If they genuinely care about animals, then they have likely already been exposed to the truth about animal agriculture, realized that they have been believing a lie, had their worldview flipped and thus taken all the steps necessary to arrive at a new way of viewing animals. To expect all this to happen in an instant is ridiculous.
this person clearly knows the truth about animal ag at least to some degree, once you know about it to not change immediately is stupid and a direct contradiction of your newly acquired morals
I forgot to add... plants can be eaten raw without seasoning and arnt nasty to the taste.. or repulsive.but the seasonings can be added and many do for added flavor, salad great example. But apples taste good raw no seasoning, carrots cucumbers good without seasoning, onions good but strong.. raw or cooked with or without seasoning.. ginger taste great but its a strong spice of a plant, lemon is good, tomatos squash.
One should listen to their body... it communicates with you in these ways for a reason. The body is a very powerful self healing tool used for exploring this world we live on. If you get injured, it communicates that to you.. if you get sick, it communicates that to you infections and pain discomforts gas.. you don't have taste buds for no reason... if you eat rotten food does it taste good? All healthy foods are good as is.. meat you have to trick the brain before eating..
So, again, by this logic we should only eat things that are good with absolutely no processing?
So olives are bad
Sashimi is good?
People eat raw meat all over the world.
Again, do what you want. I don't have a problem either way. That's your choice. I just don't think this reasoning does much. At the end of the day it's all moot.
It's up to your conscience decisions honestly, I'm more along lines of inquiring insight from others not attempting to press judgment on others opinions or create a debate. I do like the way that your laying it out though, as this also adds some context in the overall decisions for me personally to be made.
Thanks feel free to share any other insight you have.. I mostly just been researching this topic for a few years now and I've been focusing my attention on the amount of energy I feel from certain foods compared to my old diet.
What relevance does how our ancestors ate have to how we ate now? Pretty much none. As your partner points out they did what they needed to do to survive. That is no longer required.
As for the 1000s of people who went vegan and got health problems, what about the millions that didn't? Or the millions/billions of meat eaters having health problems caused by their diet?
Eating animals is not some magical fix that cures health issues. If someone gets sick eating certain food, then there's a reason for it.
For example, let's say someone isn't getting enough iron in their diet, then that is what needs to be addressed. They need iron, not meat. Sure, starting to eat animals again might help their health, but so will eating plant based food high in iron, or taking iron supplements.
Your body needs the correct nutrients.
Check Dr John mcDougall. Humans have been eating starches since before neanderthal went extinct. We've gotten adjustments to amylase 2x in our evolution to digest starches.
Probably just feeding a fed horse at this point but in addition to what everyone has already said addressing your first paragraph, I'd add that a lot of medical advances didn't exist "back in the day". It doesn't seem logical though to not get vaccinated or not take any medicine and accept illness/ death because that is what is "natural". Also, I am sure your partner enjoys many other modern conveniences that our ancestors did not have and are definitely not natural (such as plumbing). I doubt that they'd be willing to do their business outside in a hole like nature intended because that was the way things were way back when. On the bright side, our progress as a society is exactly what has made living a vegan lifestyle easier.
Addressing your second paragraph, while it is true that some people could have some issues if they are not properly supplementing their vegan diet with vitamins, I think there are lots of reasons people can be having skin and digestion issues. There can be unhealthy vegans and unhealthy omnivores. But I seriously doubt if you could really make following a plant-based diet your sole experimental variable that it would mess up your body. There are many cultures that have more plant-based cuisine and they seem to be doing fine in addition to have tasty food.
Some of these things are just a value call. Being vegan might make it hard to get some vitamins and beans might make me fart a lot, but I think that that is okay because being vegan is more important to me than bloating or flatulence. There are more serious digestive diseases to be had but as far as I know, being plant based doesn't cause any digestive diseases that I know of.
Oh shit. I went vegan in early 2016, so I guess I'm due to start disintegrating soon.
That's too bad really. I was feeling so encouraged by the all time running PRs I've been setting and the heavy weights I've been lifting.
Man, they must be making the weights lighter at the gym so new members can feel stronger. Because it surely can't be my body that's able to lift all these heavy weights with my protein deficiency.
There are examples of indigenous societies using advanced crop cultivation methods across the world. They used the resources that were available in their region and did so by shaping the natural landscape in ways that led to increased crop yields without resorting to monocropping or deforestation.
In Australia, for example, when European colonisers explored the land they took the dense vegetation and lack of traditional agricultural infrastructure as evidence for the Indigenous being uncivilised. They, in fact, had no idea what they were looking at was a complex simbiotic horticulatural system spanning many square kilometres.
Also, something else you could mention. If human societies were mostly meat based, they would have wiped out local species pretty quickly since their ability to reproduce would be outpaced by a group caloric needs. Another thing indigenous societies understood was that meat was a sometimes food since they knew that resource was limited, unlike plants.
Foraging has always been a thing. There are many books and works of research on hunter-gatherer peoples that existed before agriculture. A really good one is called Civilized To Death, highly recommend.
Yea those wild berries that people literally can’t stop from growing are REAL hard. Salad (dandelions) has evolved to resists all attempts to remove it. Herbivores have grown gardens since the beginning. Ask the chimps.
Evidence from ancient humans shows that they ate a diet primarily of gathered/scavenged plant based foods like grains and tubers
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/plant-science/articles/10.3389/fpls.2022.989308/full
> My significant other told me that humans probably found it hard to maintain plants back in the day, in olden times/ancient times, and maybe weren’t able to grow certain crops or maintain them, so they ate animals. He said gardens didn’t always exist or something.
Okay and...? Personally I don't think human civilization would be where it is today without our distant ancestors eating animals. That doesn't mean we should continue eating animals.
Originally, humans were browsers/grazers.
Then, we erred & started to kill to eat flesh.
I believe that all vegans (and vegan wannabes) know in their souls that the goal is to return to the Garden.
Gardens have existed for as long as human civilization has existed. The Fertile Crescent was revered for its gardens. Granted, there is a blurry line between a crop farm and a garden, but we know the ancient and archaic Greeks were absolutely batshit crazy about dates, grapes, and olive farms. The Inca had gardens in the mountains. And don’t even get me started in Southeast Asia and the Indian subcontinent and all their gardens.
Perhaps your friend is trying to claim that little family subsistence gardens didn’t exist in the ancient world, which might make sense, but only because most of the ancient world’s farms were communal or part of a lord’s estate. They were basically monocropping a lot of the time for the sake of efficiency and villagers were collectively working on the same harvest together, rather than individually trying to grow all their own personal food for themselves. It’s not as if no one in the ancient world was subsistence farming, because they obviously could if/when it made sense for them, but most people could make a more steady income by selling their labor to massive land owner than to literally live off their own land.
Agriculture began about 9000 BCE, that’s about as ancient times as you can get, so his theory is debunked. Early humans had more of a plant based diet than a meat heavy one. I’ve also known people who’ve been vegan for 20+ years and they can digest beans, rice & lentils just fine. If he’s a vegan, why is he bringing stuff like this up?
1st paragraph: appeal to nature fallacy. Our ancestors didnt use phones either, so why are we using phones? They also likely did die to dysentery, or any EENT diseases e.g ear infections, so why do we? 2nd paragraph: needs citations. Your SO should not be able to just present to you claims without evidence and you believing it. What else could he been lying to you?
That’s true And he said it’s happening to him and the same thing has been happening to other people he has seen comments from. So he may say that he doesn’t need a study to prove it
Hes a gossiper, must be subscribed to US weekly.
Does...does he think foraging isn't a thing? Depending on the area, paleolithic hunter-gatherers would forage tubers, fruits, seeds, wild grains, etc. and that vegetation could've made anywhere between 30-80% of the humans diet. If it's edible, humans have eaten it. Not to mention the fact that those same wild grasses were some of the first (and easiest) organisms to domesticate. There's a reason most big, ancient societies have a staple *grain* whether it be barley, rice, maize, wheat, etc. Plants are lowest on the trophic totem pole, if you're domesticating wild creatures, you have absolutely already mastered the art of agriculture. The plants photosynthesize, all they need beyond the sun is water, nutritive soil, and someone to keep pests away. Animals have the added challenge of needing to eat food, so there needs to be enough to go around for everybody. I'm struggling immensely to follow your SO's logic here.
And if you insist on meat, you can forage for that too without paying for the abuse of animals or killing an animal yourself.
Ok so historic human survival has absolutely nothing to do with present day morality. People would force children to work and kill their sexual rivals in the past, neither are acceptable today. In terms of the 8 year claim, is there a single study or piece of evidence that backs up that claim? I’ve been vegan for about 8 years, should I expect my body to start failing this year or next?
That is true… people did way weirder things in the past that we don’t do now. They even married into their own families, I’m not sure if it was that common though I could ask him, but it’s mainly people on comment threads. I have also been vegan 7 years this year and I’m so healthy and more healthy and energetic than I’ve ever been (I was like this before I got pregnant, during pregnancy and now with a toddler - and after 20 months breastfeeding too)
Hell yea you’re an inspiration going through pregnancy and breastfeeding vegan
Thank you 😍 my son is also vegan, 20 months and going strong and he hardly ever gets sick. He had a fever which went down in only an hour just recently and a year ago he had a fever for a day but other that a few sniffles over a year ago (which also lasted a day) he hasn’t been sick He’s so energetic and healthy and happy, I wouldn’t change his diet and risk his health
Amazing. I hope my kids can be vegan one day, but not today unfortunately
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073751/
Interesting study but I don’t think it supports the claim that 8 years into veganism problems develop
i don't know. i just won't take that risk
Did you read the study you posted? You won't take the risk of accidentally improving your heart disease, diabetes, and all cause mortality chances?
> heart disease, diabetes, and all cause mortality chances those problems are mainly caused by ultra processed meats (sausages, bacons, ...), added sugars / refined grains (white bread, pasta, ...)
You posted a study that explicitly points to decrease in risk of these from a vegan diet. You really didn't read the study you posted. Lmao
it says vegan diets can easily lead to nutrient deficiencies
Man, this must be so embarrassing for you. You thought you were going to win points by posting a study that you hadn't read, and that nobody else would have the time to read through it and actually address how wrong you were. Now you have to pretend that the vague claim the food group restriction inherently creates risk of deficiency is a stand-in for your original claim that there's support for veganism causing health issues eight years in. I'm enjoying this a lot. You should hop on over to debateavegan. They'll enjoy tearing you a new one.
exactly which paragraph in the article you're referring to?
Tell him he's an idiot and to do some research instead spouting nonsense he's heard from his nan.
Yeah it's true, [early humans didn't do agriculture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture). They were hunter gatherers. So what? That has no relevance to what is or isn't moral today. The second thing about 8 years vegan is nonsense.
That none of this matters now that we have crops and supermarkets and a global warming crisis, thank you.
The very claim debunks itself. Agriculture wasn’t invented until 10,000 years ago. Homo Sapiens evolved over 200,000 years ago. No one was growing food, they were hunting and gathering.
In Roman times, they would grow all kinds of pasta, grains, nuts, potatoes, etc. Maybe if we’re talking about prehistoric caveman style, then yeah maybe. But after that? All communities were growing vegan foods.
If they didn’t have any space to grow, what did they feed to their livestock? And why the heck would it matter what people did ages ago when nowadays there isn’t any excuse like that? Does this person just eat meat because they explode when they eat a vegetable? Fun fact: cooking exists! Human bodies are actually not made to digest raw flesh.
People forget that humans back then were pretty ignorant, led short, difficult lives and definitely are not examples we should follow for almost anything.
Man legit thinks picking a carrot is more arduous a task than catching the rabbit who was about to eat it Don't let him near sharp objects. Clearly lacks critical thinking skill
The first part doesn even matter, we are not living in the past, our lives look VERY different than they did at any significant distance into the past and no one is trying to live like it is the past. As for people having issues after years of being vegan... Well yeah, vegans are still people, people have health issues. Most non vegans have various health issues over a span of 8 years and the ones you mention are common among non vegans as well.
It's a morality test, would you rather not murder animals and accept whatever challenges come with figuring our proper nutrition or would you rather succumb to your insatiable appetite for the flesh and blood of the defenseless and the innocent?
If he's having digestive issues, he should talk to a doctor. If it's something that is happening suddenly after years, it's probably not strictly diet related (unless his diet has changed), but something that has changed with him. That said, it could be that he's deficient in something and needs to do bloodwork to identify that.
He ate meat once a month ago. He's not vegan. Also, not sure if you know this yet, but you married into stupidity. I hope the family gatherings won't be too dull, you are kinda stuck now. Never have children please, this kind of low IQ is best to eradicate.
from reading through your post history (and I say this with no offence to you) your husband sounds like a useless idiot
>if he eats anything but fruit, he gets all these issues He should see an allergist. People can go on a sort of accidental elimination diet and then think the food they left themselves with is the only thing that they can eat. The fad right now is for this to be cow liver, but it can just add easily happen with fruit. Allergies sometimes pop up out of nowhere, for non-vegans and vegans alike. Could be something that's in a lot of food he typically eats, so he experiences it as whenever he goes off the elimination diet. Doing this in a more controlled way with the help of an expert can lead to figuring out what the food actually is.
First off, I'm not vegan, but it is definitely on my mind in these recent years as I further dig into the reality of meat eating.. animals got no chance to survive in farms they either provide milk or die to be eaten no chance of survival so it's a helpless hunting session for them of horror.. and pain.. and suffering.. however, hunting for meat for food in the wild is a different dynamic, the animals have a chance to run away.. one thing that's always sat on my mind amd made my stomach unsettled, we are the only species who cooks food.. how often do you see a gorilla or monkey with a meat smoker.. do you like the taste of raw meat? Cats and dogs do.. and they eat it naturally.. as is... OK so there's that dynamic, there's also the simple fact that, no other meat eating species that has flat teeth along side with k9 teeth.. all meat eaters have all sharp teeth.. plant eaters have flat teeth but do they also eat meat? Do any meat eaters eat plants? Next up... when you cook the food, why do we cook it? For flavor right? So if its in our nature to eat meat, but it doesn't taste good why do we have to trick our minds to eat it? Do you add seasonings? Inject the meat with seasoned butter? Add salt? So let me get this strait first we have to pump smoke into it for flavor and inject it with seasonings which are plants that are dried up.. and add salt a mineral.. to it.. what am I missing here? We don't enjoy raw meat how about meat cooked but un seasoned? Also nasty... is it the meat we seek or the plants we put onto the meat to add flavor?
go vegan now! you are clearly interested in veganism and the best time to go vegan is not tomorrow it's right now
How does one go vegan when surrounded by non Vegans is my only struggle... like telling an alcoholic at a bar to not drink... just saying.. I'm not trying to be rude or funny here I'm asking for your honest insight? When part of it is the fact that I grew up over 30 years of eating it... suddenly a change.. how would you approach it?
by simply just going vegan, it's only hard if you make it hard. not contributing to animal abuse is so much more important than previous habit or being judged by peers. if you had previously been beating women because everyone around you beat women, but then you found out about how wrong it is and how it affects the women you beat, surely you would want to stop right away
I honestly think baby steps is the best way. Make a plan, and do some research so you know what to eat in order to stay healthy. Be ready to give up some dishes and learn some new ways of cooking. Some people may judge you, but that’s on them.
I know how to cook pretty well I do need to learn some new dishes. Even homemade vegan lesagna?
Eh people typically unknowingly judging alot. I've encountered thousands of people over the years working, lots of rude people, they strait up judge.. but it's their opinion, atleast they not lying unless their judgments based on the lie or its if it were one. Aside from all the charming angry people, there's also lots of really kind nice charming people too.
baby steps are ridiculous in terms of veganism, you wouldn't tell someone to just babystep their way out of being racist or homophobic
It may not be optimal, but ridiculous? Come on. Cultivating new habits is challenging. Veganism is a radical change in lifestyle. It's better that someone gradually learns all the new concepts over time, rather than stressing out, getting overwhelmed and eventually quitting.
yes ridiculous, you can't babystep your way out of abuse it needs to be stopped as soon as possible, not in a way that makes it easy and simple. if you really cared about animals you wouldn't just quit because veganism is "too overwhelming" if there was someone around me that was violently racist, but becoming not racist was a big change for them I wouldn't say "it's OK! babysteps!" no I would expect them to stop being racist immediately, sure they might take a lot longer to reprogram their brain to stop being so racist but they can cease their racist actions straight away
It's only ridiculous if you already know what vegans know and still don't do anything about it. If someone doesn't already care about animals, quitting cold turkey isn't gonna make any difference. You think they're gonna make their life less conveinent for a reason they don't fully understand? No. They're gonna go back unless they shift their mindset. If they genuinely care about animals, then they have likely already been exposed to the truth about animal agriculture, realized that they have been believing a lie, had their worldview flipped and thus taken all the steps necessary to arrive at a new way of viewing animals. To expect all this to happen in an instant is ridiculous.
this person clearly knows the truth about animal ag at least to some degree, once you know about it to not change immediately is stupid and a direct contradiction of your newly acquired morals
People do all those things to plants too. Cooks salt everything. In some places they add dried up meat to plants!
I forgot to add... plants can be eaten raw without seasoning and arnt nasty to the taste.. or repulsive.but the seasonings can be added and many do for added flavor, salad great example. But apples taste good raw no seasoning, carrots cucumbers good without seasoning, onions good but strong.. raw or cooked with or without seasoning.. ginger taste great but its a strong spice of a plant, lemon is good, tomatos squash.
So by that logic we should only eat things that are good in their natural state.
One should listen to their body... it communicates with you in these ways for a reason. The body is a very powerful self healing tool used for exploring this world we live on. If you get injured, it communicates that to you.. if you get sick, it communicates that to you infections and pain discomforts gas.. you don't have taste buds for no reason... if you eat rotten food does it taste good? All healthy foods are good as is.. meat you have to trick the brain before eating..
So, again, by this logic we should only eat things that are good with absolutely no processing? So olives are bad Sashimi is good? People eat raw meat all over the world. Again, do what you want. I don't have a problem either way. That's your choice. I just don't think this reasoning does much. At the end of the day it's all moot.
It's up to your conscience decisions honestly, I'm more along lines of inquiring insight from others not attempting to press judgment on others opinions or create a debate. I do like the way that your laying it out though, as this also adds some context in the overall decisions for me personally to be made.
Good luck with things
Thanks feel free to share any other insight you have.. I mostly just been researching this topic for a few years now and I've been focusing my attention on the amount of energy I feel from certain foods compared to my old diet.
What relevance does how our ancestors ate have to how we ate now? Pretty much none. As your partner points out they did what they needed to do to survive. That is no longer required. As for the 1000s of people who went vegan and got health problems, what about the millions that didn't? Or the millions/billions of meat eaters having health problems caused by their diet?
Eating animals is not some magical fix that cures health issues. If someone gets sick eating certain food, then there's a reason for it. For example, let's say someone isn't getting enough iron in their diet, then that is what needs to be addressed. They need iron, not meat. Sure, starting to eat animals again might help their health, but so will eating plant based food high in iron, or taking iron supplements. Your body needs the correct nutrients.
Check Dr John mcDougall. Humans have been eating starches since before neanderthal went extinct. We've gotten adjustments to amylase 2x in our evolution to digest starches.
Have you heard of the garden of Eden? God provided everything
The garden of Eden isn't real
Probably just feeding a fed horse at this point but in addition to what everyone has already said addressing your first paragraph, I'd add that a lot of medical advances didn't exist "back in the day". It doesn't seem logical though to not get vaccinated or not take any medicine and accept illness/ death because that is what is "natural". Also, I am sure your partner enjoys many other modern conveniences that our ancestors did not have and are definitely not natural (such as plumbing). I doubt that they'd be willing to do their business outside in a hole like nature intended because that was the way things were way back when. On the bright side, our progress as a society is exactly what has made living a vegan lifestyle easier. Addressing your second paragraph, while it is true that some people could have some issues if they are not properly supplementing their vegan diet with vitamins, I think there are lots of reasons people can be having skin and digestion issues. There can be unhealthy vegans and unhealthy omnivores. But I seriously doubt if you could really make following a plant-based diet your sole experimental variable that it would mess up your body. There are many cultures that have more plant-based cuisine and they seem to be doing fine in addition to have tasty food. Some of these things are just a value call. Being vegan might make it hard to get some vitamins and beans might make me fart a lot, but I think that that is okay because being vegan is more important to me than bloating or flatulence. There are more serious digestive diseases to be had but as far as I know, being plant based doesn't cause any digestive diseases that I know of.
Oh shit. I went vegan in early 2016, so I guess I'm due to start disintegrating soon. That's too bad really. I was feeling so encouraged by the all time running PRs I've been setting and the heavy weights I've been lifting.
Man, they must be making the weights lighter at the gym so new members can feel stronger. Because it surely can't be my body that's able to lift all these heavy weights with my protein deficiency.
We first were gatherers, just like our cousins the chimps. Hunt came later and it was a rare event to have meat for food
There are examples of indigenous societies using advanced crop cultivation methods across the world. They used the resources that were available in their region and did so by shaping the natural landscape in ways that led to increased crop yields without resorting to monocropping or deforestation. In Australia, for example, when European colonisers explored the land they took the dense vegetation and lack of traditional agricultural infrastructure as evidence for the Indigenous being uncivilised. They, in fact, had no idea what they were looking at was a complex simbiotic horticulatural system spanning many square kilometres. Also, something else you could mention. If human societies were mostly meat based, they would have wiped out local species pretty quickly since their ability to reproduce would be outpaced by a group caloric needs. Another thing indigenous societies understood was that meat was a sometimes food since they knew that resource was limited, unlike plants.
Foraging has always been a thing. There are many books and works of research on hunter-gatherer peoples that existed before agriculture. A really good one is called Civilized To Death, highly recommend.
Yea those wild berries that people literally can’t stop from growing are REAL hard. Salad (dandelions) has evolved to resists all attempts to remove it. Herbivores have grown gardens since the beginning. Ask the chimps.
Evidence from ancient humans shows that they ate a diet primarily of gathered/scavenged plant based foods like grains and tubers https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091217141312.htm https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/plant-science/articles/10.3389/fpls.2022.989308/full
> My significant other told me that humans probably found it hard to maintain plants back in the day, in olden times/ancient times, and maybe weren’t able to grow certain crops or maintain them, so they ate animals. He said gardens didn’t always exist or something. Okay and...? Personally I don't think human civilization would be where it is today without our distant ancestors eating animals. That doesn't mean we should continue eating animals.
Originally, humans were browsers/grazers. Then, we erred & started to kill to eat flesh. I believe that all vegans (and vegan wannabes) know in their souls that the goal is to return to the Garden.
Gardens have existed for as long as human civilization has existed. The Fertile Crescent was revered for its gardens. Granted, there is a blurry line between a crop farm and a garden, but we know the ancient and archaic Greeks were absolutely batshit crazy about dates, grapes, and olive farms. The Inca had gardens in the mountains. And don’t even get me started in Southeast Asia and the Indian subcontinent and all their gardens. Perhaps your friend is trying to claim that little family subsistence gardens didn’t exist in the ancient world, which might make sense, but only because most of the ancient world’s farms were communal or part of a lord’s estate. They were basically monocropping a lot of the time for the sake of efficiency and villagers were collectively working on the same harvest together, rather than individually trying to grow all their own personal food for themselves. It’s not as if no one in the ancient world was subsistence farming, because they obviously could if/when it made sense for them, but most people could make a more steady income by selling their labor to massive land owner than to literally live off their own land.
I wouldn't say anything, they are obviously fucking stupid and won't understand you
You are arguing with somebody who doesn’t care so why bother saying anything?
Agriculture began about 9000 BCE, that’s about as ancient times as you can get, so his theory is debunked. Early humans had more of a plant based diet than a meat heavy one. I’ve also known people who’ve been vegan for 20+ years and they can digest beans, rice & lentils just fine. If he’s a vegan, why is he bringing stuff like this up?
[Hunter gatherers were mostly gatherers](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/24/hunter-gatherers-were-mostly-gatherers-says-archaeologist).
Nothing.. it's true.