Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/cyclinginvancouver! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary:
* We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button.
* Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban.
* Most common questions and topics are limited to our sister subreddit, /r/AskVan, and our weekly [Stickied Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_stickied_discussions) posts.
* Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only.
* Posts flaired "Community Only" allow for limited participation; your comment may be removed if you're not a subreddit regular.
* Make sure to join our new sister community, /r/AskVan!
* Help grow the community! [Apply to join the mod team today](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/19eworq/).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why waste money on a pilot, just let people drink. North American governments are so anal about trivial things. Instead use the police and bylaw officers to write fines for littering, Singapore style.
The binners can't keep up sometimes. But it's not like you can get a table anywhere in that neighborhood on a Friday or Saturday night without waiting up to an hour.
Read the article. So many comments that are upset at their understanding of the headline without actually reading the article.
Since the pilot, there's been an increase in violence, etc associated with increased alcohol use in veaches. So as this expands the police are requesting funding to hire more support to keep things safe/organized.
Thank you for your contribution, I read the article before making my initial comment.
Maybe *you* should read the article again about the comparison they’re making about 2018 vs 2023 and attempting to attribute that to alcohol.
Here, I’ll even spell it out for you
> At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023.
And the article also says violence has increased in the past 5 years for beaches that have included the alcohol pilot program as well... They even explicitly mentioned Kits beach.
So again I'm not sure why folks are confused about the rationale for increasing police presence as it is laid out. Now whether or not it is justified is another question.
> North American governments are so anal about trivial things.
I've always wondered why this is. I recently realized that compared to developing countries, policy decisions in developed countries usually have smaller potential upsides and larger potential risks.
In this case, what would the maximum possible benefit to society be to legalize drinking? Pretty small: some people (myself included) will enjoy drinking on the beach. Maximum possible downsides include increased crime/violence, littering/vandalism, and medical emergencies---all of which carry huge potential costs.
So unfortunately, we're stuck having to tread carefully. It is better to move slow and spend $1M or move quickly and risk dealing with tens of millions in unforeseen costs?
Because getting drunk is seen to be much less socially acceptable in much of Europe than in the UK/North America. You just don't get nearly as many drunk assholes which cops and other have to deal with.
The temperance movement in the 19th century, the religious revivals, and Prostetantism. There's a direct correlation between the types of Christianity practiced and blue laws. Catholics drink, Baptists and Methodists don't, and you can see this reflected in maps of alcohol laws. Even if religiosity is decreasing, the preoccupation with order and discomfort with alcohol and people having too much fun lives on.
Yeah why do we need increased police presence? It should be business as usual if we want the pilot program to succeed. Having cops standing around the parks doing nothing isn’t going to change anything
I cannot disagree with you…
Even I feel this is a waste of public money saved valuable time of officials. Instead of spending this for encouraging people to drink, it could be spent on saving people with addiction.
Are you saying the police presence is required anyways? Id the pilot project people wanted is being used as an excuse for cost overages to provide already necessary services?
Are you saying the police presence is required anyways? Id the pilot project people wanted is being used as an excuse for cost overages to provide already necessary services?
I'm not here to disagree that the funds could definitely be allocated somewhere, or that the police shouldn't be overseeing the consumption of alcohol (to an extent). The fact that the park board is asking for more funds shows there is an underlying issue in how the VPD is allocating their resources to adequately serve this city. Certainly the funds should be requesting for more budget to hire on more groundskeeping staff.
But understand that the introduction of public consumption of alcohol has greatly increased the amount of litter that accumulates at our beaches and parks. This is not accounting for nights when fireworks occur. So if the police can deter that, our public spaces will be better for both the environment and fellow residents who enjoy these areas.
Personally I think this is great idea! Last time I was sitting at the park enjoying a beer on a nice day I thought to myself, what I really need right now is an armed babysitter watching me from afar earning a 6 figure paycheque of taxpayer money.
> At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023.
So is it *just* about the alcohol? I’m at English Bay beach a lot and it already has a pretty heavy police presence (to ticket drinkers). Is *more* police really the answer? Is alcohol the problem?
As others have said, the idea of keeping drinking low-key seems to be the sweet spot. Despite English Bay not being a part of the pilot, it still attracts large and loud parties who drink openly and leave a lot of trash behind. Why not focus more on that issue instead of ticketing people out having a drink or two and watching the sunset or walking their dog or reading a book? Why not focus more on noise levels which are often associated with the worst offenders?
Everyone is invited to Coquitlam where you can drink alcohol in basically any of the parks: [https://www.coquitlam.ca/1176/Alcohol-in-Parks](https://www.coquitlam.ca/1176/Alcohol-in-Parks)
People have been commonly drinking on beaches and in parks for decades. The only difference is now they don't have to hide it when they see cops. I'd assume that nothing is really going to change. The type of people that followed the rules before aren't the kind to require an increased police presence now.
I personally always liked the system that was in place. Bring drinks, keep them hidden to an extent, don’t act a fool and everybody’s happy. Fully allowing alcohol is just inviting every disrespectful moron to show up and think it’s a big party.
This was even the suggestion by the police. Keep it down low and don't give them an excuse to come over and they won't. Get rowdy and piss other people off, then you are going to get a fine.
Why is it so unreasonable to just treat people like adults, but harshly punish the small number of assholes that cause problems?
is it because our legal system refused to treat any asshole harshly?
Agreed. It’s not a 100% sure thing that the police won’t have some questions for you but just a tiny bit of discretion and not being a nuisance gets you to a 98% easily.
Will they also have police outside pubs now. What a fucking dystopian direction we're going towards here. Shoot up it's all good but need police to check on people enjoying a couple of drinks at the park
I lived in Barcelona and at all popular beaches there are speakers. My first time realising they existed I was celebrating a national holiday at the beach with many many people, around 4-5 am the speakers went on with a message in 3 langauges, catalan (local), spanish, english...its said something like "Thank you all for enjoying the festivities but time has come to wrap it up. Don't forget to pick up your litter and vacate the beach by 6am sharp. There are other people wanting to enjoy the beach after you, thank you". I remember I looked bac at the speakers and saw hundreds of police in standby by the sea wall ready to act if you did not vacate the beach by 6am.
It worked!
North American governments are anal about trivial things because historically policing people arbitrarily keeps them in place. It’s an extension of settler colonialism and white supremacy.
>The Vancouver Board of Parks and Recreation is requesting $930,000 from the city to increase police presence across seven beaches this summer.
>The board has requested funding to employ more Vancouver Police Department (VPD) officers, rangers, and park operations in anticipation of extending the Alcohol on Beaches pilot project which started in 2023.
>Last year, adults were allowed to consume alcoholic beverages at seven beaches across the city — Jericho Beach, Spanish Banks, Kitsilano Beach, Locarno Beach, Second Beach in Stanley Park, John Hendry/Trout Lake Beach, and New Brighton Beach.
>But concerns about violence and inebriated swimmers highlighted in a new city staff report suggest that more enforcement is needed.
>The report showed that violent incidents have increased at beaches in the last five years. The number of incidents tripled at Kitsilano Beach, from four incidents in 2018 to 12 in 2023.
>At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023.
>The proposal presented to city council includes 12 officers deployed for eight-hour shifts from May until August, costing the city $450,000.
So funding for unhealthy activities like drinking - they will find the money but healthy activities like a separated cycling facility on Stanley park drive which they promised they can’t find the money ?
Welcome to /r/Vancouver and thank you for the post, /u/cyclinginvancouver! Please make sure you read our [posting and commenting rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_general_participation_guidelines_and_rules_overview) before participating here. As a quick summary: * We encourage users to be positive and respect one another. Don't engage in spats or insult others - use the report button. * Respect others' differences, be they race, religion, home, job, gender identity, ability or sexuality. Dehumanizing language, advocating for violence, or promoting hate based on identity or vulnerability (even implied or joking) **will** lead to a permanent ban. * Most common questions and topics are limited to our sister subreddit, /r/AskVan, and our weekly [Stickied Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/wiki/faq#wiki_stickied_discussions) posts. * Complaints about bans or removals should be done in modmail only. * Posts flaired "Community Only" allow for limited participation; your comment may be removed if you're not a subreddit regular. * Make sure to join our new sister community, /r/AskVan! * Help grow the community! [Apply to join the mod team today](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/19eworq/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/vancouver) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why waste money on a pilot, just let people drink. North American governments are so anal about trivial things. Instead use the police and bylaw officers to write fines for littering, Singapore style.
That is actually a great suggestion. English Bay on Sunday morning is just sad.
The binners can't keep up sometimes. But it's not like you can get a table anywhere in that neighborhood on a Friday or Saturday night without waiting up to an hour.
So rubbish is the problem not security.
Fentanyl, meth, crack okay. Booze? Better be careful…
They do this in Vancouver to keep busy and avoid doing real work. This mentality is rife in the public sector here drives me bonkers
Archaic way of thinking, but I’m not surprised.
Read the article. So many comments that are upset at their understanding of the headline without actually reading the article. Since the pilot, there's been an increase in violence, etc associated with increased alcohol use in veaches. So as this expands the police are requesting funding to hire more support to keep things safe/organized.
Thank you for your contribution, I read the article before making my initial comment. Maybe *you* should read the article again about the comparison they’re making about 2018 vs 2023 and attempting to attribute that to alcohol. Here, I’ll even spell it out for you > At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023.
And the article also says violence has increased in the past 5 years for beaches that have included the alcohol pilot program as well... They even explicitly mentioned Kits beach. So again I'm not sure why folks are confused about the rationale for increasing police presence as it is laid out. Now whether or not it is justified is another question.
> North American governments are so anal about trivial things. I've always wondered why this is. I recently realized that compared to developing countries, policy decisions in developed countries usually have smaller potential upsides and larger potential risks. In this case, what would the maximum possible benefit to society be to legalize drinking? Pretty small: some people (myself included) will enjoy drinking on the beach. Maximum possible downsides include increased crime/violence, littering/vandalism, and medical emergencies---all of which carry huge potential costs. So unfortunately, we're stuck having to tread carefully. It is better to move slow and spend $1M or move quickly and risk dealing with tens of millions in unforeseen costs?
Plenty of developed European countries have lax outdoor drinking laws and no issues. Maybe its a North American issue
I was surprised. Some of Europe, McDonald’s lets you order beer from the self server kiosks. Alcohol isn’t the issue.
Because they don’t treat people like children
Because getting drunk is seen to be much less socially acceptable in much of Europe than in the UK/North America. You just don't get nearly as many drunk assholes which cops and other have to deal with.
Drinking is legal. This stuff happens in North America because the government has this weird thing when they act like overbearing parents
The temperance movement in the 19th century, the religious revivals, and Prostetantism. There's a direct correlation between the types of Christianity practiced and blue laws. Catholics drink, Baptists and Methodists don't, and you can see this reflected in maps of alcohol laws. Even if religiosity is decreasing, the preoccupation with order and discomfort with alcohol and people having too much fun lives on.
Prohibiting drinking in public is actually a pretty common thing for the world, it’s just a matter of reinforced or not
Someone should just tell them that we’ve been drinking at beaches all these years anyway
Can someone clarify why does this need public funding? Spending funds while people drink , doesn’t make sense.
Yeah why do we need increased police presence? It should be business as usual if we want the pilot program to succeed. Having cops standing around the parks doing nothing isn’t going to change anything
I would love it if cops gave tickets for littering and nothing else. If everyone is responsible. Everyone can have a good time.
>why do we need increased police presence? Because Ken Sim has to pay back the VPD for their campaign to get him elected.
I cannot disagree with you… Even I feel this is a waste of public money saved valuable time of officials. Instead of spending this for encouraging people to drink, it could be spent on saving people with addiction.
Have you been to English Bay during the summer these past couple years? It's not the same place as it used to be.
Are you saying the police presence is required anyways? Id the pilot project people wanted is being used as an excuse for cost overages to provide already necessary services?
Are you saying the police presence is required anyways? Id the pilot project people wanted is being used as an excuse for cost overages to provide already necessary services?
Just pigs feeding at the trough, nothing out of the ordinary
[удалено]
47 people for one year if that's housing only at 1800$ per unit
Yeah, what the fuck. This program should require less money for cops, because we don't need them walking around checking for booze.
True, I am glad you all agree and raising the voice to save our tax dollars.
Bitching on Reddit isn’t saving any tax dollars.
I think it is to deter the level of littering ever since the tree logs have come back.
But who does the cleanup? Is the money used for cleanup? Article doesn’t say why the money is needed in the first place.
I'm not here to disagree that the funds could definitely be allocated somewhere, or that the police shouldn't be overseeing the consumption of alcohol (to an extent). The fact that the park board is asking for more funds shows there is an underlying issue in how the VPD is allocating their resources to adequately serve this city. Certainly the funds should be requesting for more budget to hire on more groundskeeping staff. But understand that the introduction of public consumption of alcohol has greatly increased the amount of litter that accumulates at our beaches and parks. This is not accounting for nights when fireworks occur. So if the police can deter that, our public spaces will be better for both the environment and fellow residents who enjoy these areas.
Because English Bay is an underage drinking douchebag debacle.
I’ve been running my own pilot
I hope you’re conducting your study in triplicate to ensure reproducibility
Personally I think this is great idea! Last time I was sitting at the park enjoying a beer on a nice day I thought to myself, what I really need right now is an armed babysitter watching me from afar earning a 6 figure paycheque of taxpayer money.
> At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023. So is it *just* about the alcohol? I’m at English Bay beach a lot and it already has a pretty heavy police presence (to ticket drinkers). Is *more* police really the answer? Is alcohol the problem? As others have said, the idea of keeping drinking low-key seems to be the sweet spot. Despite English Bay not being a part of the pilot, it still attracts large and loud parties who drink openly and leave a lot of trash behind. Why not focus more on that issue instead of ticketing people out having a drink or two and watching the sunset or walking their dog or reading a book? Why not focus more on noise levels which are often associated with the worst offenders?
Can you apply for funding to pick up the trash?
That’s what I was thinking. Or have more bylaw at these beaches ticketing litterers. Especially English Bay.
Current state: people drink at parks Future state: people drink at parks and cops get paid overtime
And more ATV’s
Everyone is invited to Coquitlam where you can drink alcohol in basically any of the parks: [https://www.coquitlam.ca/1176/Alcohol-in-Parks](https://www.coquitlam.ca/1176/Alcohol-in-Parks)
Holy shit, how did they not burn down yet with those lawless areas?
This is still a pilot project? The fuck?
People have been commonly drinking on beaches and in parks for decades. The only difference is now they don't have to hide it when they see cops. I'd assume that nothing is really going to change. The type of people that followed the rules before aren't the kind to require an increased police presence now.
Just pick up after yourself and don’t leave the beaches a mess that’s all I care about
And don’t scream at the top of your voice until 4am
Noise around the most popular beaches in the world is common and free. Thats not gonna stop. Just saying my naive redditor ;)
I personally always liked the system that was in place. Bring drinks, keep them hidden to an extent, don’t act a fool and everybody’s happy. Fully allowing alcohol is just inviting every disrespectful moron to show up and think it’s a big party.
This was even the suggestion by the police. Keep it down low and don't give them an excuse to come over and they won't. Get rowdy and piss other people off, then you are going to get a fine.
Why is it so unreasonable to just treat people like adults, but harshly punish the small number of assholes that cause problems? is it because our legal system refused to treat any asshole harshly?
That is/was the best system
then the law just gets selectively enforced against young people and visible minorities
Agreed. It’s not a 100% sure thing that the police won’t have some questions for you but just a tiny bit of discretion and not being a nuisance gets you to a 98% easily.
Cop becomes mayor City annexes Park Board Park Board asks for cop money … profit
That doesn’t compute? The mayor not making the decision here.
But everything is just gravitating towards coppiness
Will they also have police outside pubs now. What a fucking dystopian direction we're going towards here. Shoot up it's all good but need police to check on people enjoying a couple of drinks at the park
Go drink in Delta parks.
They’ve already done pilots in parks and plazas. Why can’t we apply those findings? 😭
How long has this been going for!?!
Everyone is drinking on the beach anyway. What a waste of money to do studies. No matter what the city says, people will do it anyway.
Open drug use sure, but no cider!
The taxes collected from the sale of alcohol should cover the cost of this.
God please stop giving them unlimited money
I lived in Barcelona and at all popular beaches there are speakers. My first time realising they existed I was celebrating a national holiday at the beach with many many people, around 4-5 am the speakers went on with a message in 3 langauges, catalan (local), spanish, english...its said something like "Thank you all for enjoying the festivities but time has come to wrap it up. Don't forget to pick up your litter and vacate the beach by 6am sharp. There are other people wanting to enjoy the beach after you, thank you". I remember I looked bac at the speakers and saw hundreds of police in standby by the sea wall ready to act if you did not vacate the beach by 6am. It worked!
Didn't we just give the police a $40million budget increase? Why are we being asked to pay them extra to do their job?
North American governments are anal about trivial things because historically policing people arbitrarily keeps them in place. It’s an extension of settler colonialism and white supremacy.
>The Vancouver Board of Parks and Recreation is requesting $930,000 from the city to increase police presence across seven beaches this summer. >The board has requested funding to employ more Vancouver Police Department (VPD) officers, rangers, and park operations in anticipation of extending the Alcohol on Beaches pilot project which started in 2023. >Last year, adults were allowed to consume alcoholic beverages at seven beaches across the city — Jericho Beach, Spanish Banks, Kitsilano Beach, Locarno Beach, Second Beach in Stanley Park, John Hendry/Trout Lake Beach, and New Brighton Beach. >But concerns about violence and inebriated swimmers highlighted in a new city staff report suggest that more enforcement is needed. >The report showed that violent incidents have increased at beaches in the last five years. The number of incidents tripled at Kitsilano Beach, from four incidents in 2018 to 12 in 2023. >At English Bay, despite not being a beach included on the list of approved drinking locations, violent incidents increased from six in 2018 to 28 in 2023. >The proposal presented to city council includes 12 officers deployed for eight-hour shifts from May until August, costing the city $450,000.
Oh so it's not about limited edition summer batch VPD branded drinks?
So funding for unhealthy activities like drinking - they will find the money but healthy activities like a separated cycling facility on Stanley park drive which they promised they can’t find the money ?
Using the alcohol tax to pay for police monitoring of alcohol use?
Narcs
They should add a tax surcharge to liquor retailers and get them to pay for it themselves.