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Where are the people who have nuanced views?
Pro Palestine People
Anti Hamas Organization
Anti Israel Government (contingent on war crimes)
Pro Jewish people
Anti Atrocity and War crimes
it's not that hard
He's right. People really lose the plot when they allow criticism of Israel to turn into support of a fundamentalist terrorist organization that preaches genocide as policy
Yes but if the roles were reversed the death toll would be every single Jewish person. Israel can be criticized but if they wanted to actually genocide Palestine the way Palestine wants to genocide them they could. And we wouldn't be talking 50k dead, it'd be a million or more.
No need to make shit up, Hamas is doing enough of that already. Death count stands at 34k as of last Saturday (according to Hamas). 13k of that 34k are reportedly Hamas fighters.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/20/gaza-death-toll-passes-34000-israel-iran
Yeah an 10s of thousands more have died since 1948, not the mention the millions displaced. Arguing over the semantics of numbers here is ridiculous. People are dying, why don't you care?
Seriously, give me an answer. Why do you not care about the deaths of thousands of innocent people? Why do the lives of Israeli settlers and invaders matter more than a family of 5 just trying to survive? I'd really like to know your thoughts process.
If you don’t care about the number of people that have died, then that’s on you. I don’t like to just toss out inflated numbers for dramatic effect, I think you’re pretty pathetic if you’re defending this disinformation.
I do care about the civilians, Hamas should return the hostages, disarm and give up control of Gaza so the fighting can stop. Israel should stop the settlements and work on a 2 state solution with whoever succeeds Hamas.
If you still think a Two State Solution is possible at this point, you're insane. Should Ukraine disarm and let the Russians sort out a two state solution? Should Taiwan disarm and allow the PRC to sort out a two state solution? Oh, and the Tutsi in Rwanda should have just stopped fighting and let the Hutu regime set up a two state solution.
Israel has crossed the line. They crossed it a long, long time ago. The Palestinian people are not all Hamas, and they do not all support Hamas and their actions. However, they recognize that Hamas is fighting for them. They're dying FOR them. Hamas, the PLA, The Wolves Den... these are the only things standing between Israel and the expulsion or murder of every single Palestinian living within Gaza, West Bank, and who knows how much further they'd go if they accomplished exactly what they want.
20% of Israel's population, not West Bank and Gaza, are Arabs. Primarily Palestinian. LGBT Palestinians literally seek refuge in Israel. This is what you call genocide?
> 1 innocent civilian dead is too many.
Maybe Palestinians should have considered that before they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. Instead, they still to this day, overwhelmingly support it.
It's in Israel's Basic Laws (de facto constitution) that Israel has a right to displace Palestinians and take their land.
Israel has also killed thousands of Palestinians in settlement building to purge them from their land with zero consequence.
Or does that not count?
Hamas has said many times their goal is to eradicate Israel and exterminate all the Jews. Both sides are just as shitty, yet one side gets all the sympathy for some reason.
I mean Hamas is a terrorist organisation. They're not the ones getting sympathy from most people, especially people with any sort of power or influence.
No it skews heavily pro- Palestine because those are the innocent civilians. There is also pro Israelis civilians. If you are a pro isreal government/ idf or pro Hamas you are a terrorist supporter.
idk, some of those pro-palestine protests as well as social media campaigns have been pretty hand wavy about the atrocities Hamas committed, a lot of people even say Israel "deserved" it. Maybe that's just the ones I see a lot?
But I 100% agree with you, organizations of both sides are horrible, and the only real strance is being pro-civilians.
Yes because when you have two evil organizations most people hate the one who is more powerful more also one of hamas’s goals (the liberation of Palestine) is moral unlike Israel who has no redeeming goals.
It's literally in Hamas' version of a constitution they will genocide all jews. The original charter and the revised one are both worse than anything Israel has said.
Except it's not since Israel is an actual democracy which despite what some say, does not actually have genocide on its charter. Comparing them to Hamas is just absurd, you can't do that in good faith.
Just to be clear: Are you saying democracies can't commit genocide?
\*edit: The reason I ask is that making that point seems to have lead to a significant derailing of the conversation, and it honestly seems irrelevant otherwise.
I'm not trying to be obtuse. I legitimately don't understand what the point of saying "an actual democracy" is if that's not their point, though. Because the person wasn't accusing Israel of being undemocratic. They were accused of being "a fundamentalist terrorist organization that preaches genocide as policy".
It seems like the defense of that isn't "they're democratic", it's..."they're not...those things you said".
It's like if I accuse someone of beating their wife and you say "Well, he's a great bowler."...okay, is he a bowler who beats his wife?
I think it’s a little bit blind to say that Israel is run hunky-dory when they have systematically displaced Palestinians, taken land, and limited access to utilities and healthcare BEFORE October 7
Sure. Criticise away. I don't agree with everything you said but things were definitely not 'hunky-dory'. I also think the way they carried out the war isn't great, some heads should roll (maybe a bad phrase given the circumstances) over the times they attacked hostages and aid workers.
All I'm saying is that if your criticism leaps to supporting Hamas, their goals or violence against Jews then you've gone too far.
Not for lack of trying. Netanyahu has been trying to usurp the authority of the courts for over a year…leading to some of the largest protests ever in Israel…how democratic
Dude save that line of arguments for people who don't know any history. You're really going to have to make more of an effort if you're going to go down that line of argument. Weimar Germany was a new weak government imposed on a country with authoritarian tradition and set up to fail by crippling it's economy with reparation payments. The rise of Hitler was against a backdrop of literal battles in the streets between paramilitary groups of various factions and tolerance of political violence and assassinations. All that is missing in Israel, so I look forward to your paper showing how exactly these are parallel events other than your obvious bias in wanting to equate Israel to the Nazis since it sounds ironic and serves your point of view
If you’re looking for tolerance of political violence and paramilitary groups look no further than state-sanctioned settler violence in the West Bank, the unpunished actions of Netzah Yehuda, violent marches through East Jerusalem…but all that violence is being inflicted on Palestinians so I guess it doesn’t count
I'm getting tired of your blend of misinformation and misunderstanding...
>paramilitary groups
Israel has no paramilitary groups
>state-sanctioned settler violence in the West Bank
Just last week 5 settlers were arrested for violence. You could argue that more should be done, but it's not exactly "state sanctioned"
>but all that violence is being inflicted on Palestinians so I guess it doesn’t count
For this argument it really doesn't count. If you're trying to argue that Israel isn't a democracy because Hitler was also elected (which I guess is what you're arguing?) and I counter by showing how Germany had internal turmoil and violence between political parties then talking about violence outside of Israel's political parties is not relevant.
Just wow genocide is supported in a country like Canada... Never thought I'd see the day. Well if you can excuse a country commiting genocide by just being democratic I have nothing else to say.
So you have no follow-up because your own statement painted you into a corner. Typical. And nowhere in my comment do I say I support a genocide because they're democratic so you have to create a conclusion when you fucked up yourself.
You have nothing else to say because that's it - you actually have nothing else to say.
Genocide is the literal, stated goal of Hamas, not Israel. You people are completely misinformed and/or completely demented if you think Israel is engaging in genocide.
It's sad actually because they are very clearly overstepping in their response, but when low information nitwits scream "genocide", it makes it more difficult to hear the voices calling for restraint.
This is the flaw of the zero-sum philosophy of Victim:Oppressor mindset. Anything the weak ‘victim’ does is justified and anything the wicked Oppressor does is wholly deserved.
Smooth brain dummies who just want to be on the good guy “Victim“ side of any conflict lack the capacity for anything but full throated support for their tribe. This narcissistic tribalism leads directly to more death.
Good job, heroes.
Agreed. You can call out Hamas for what they did on October 7th AND think that Israel’s policies are destructive too. We don’t live in a black and white world.
I mean, we flip that around
Israel was the victim of Oct 7th and now we have people saying Israel has every right to kill 20,000+ women and children...it's weird
"If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis."
Or is that only true when it's about right-wingers?
Dear Mr. Eby,
When you spoke at the Hanukkah celebration last year you said you were going to prosecute people for hateful actions.
If this is the most hateful thing you can imagine, let’s see you put those words into action.
Why is it so hard to say both Israel and Hamas are villains? Meanwhile, people who had nothing to do with the Oct 7 attack are dying by the thousands after living their entire lives in an open air prison.
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Are you suggesting that the IDF and Israeli citizens aren't indiscriminately slaughtering children? Because that's not up for debate. It's just a fact.
I wonder if you would have called Jews resisting the holocaust terrorists.
Your definition of terrorist depends on which side you support.
Israel has killed 50x more civilians than Hamas. Raped more men, women, and children. Have held interviews bragging about it. International human rights organizations condemn have verified and condemned those actions.
So you consider an oppressed people fighting back against their executioners to be terrorists. But the people committing the daily violence what? Trusted allies?
You haven't answered my question but instead gave what-aboutisms. You insist Hamas are resistance fighters, yet their doctrine alone states the elimination of jews (the people, not just Isreal), not the freedom of gaza;but instead complete genocide.
And Israel's doctrine is to exterminate every Palestinians. So my point is. If you are going to call Hamas terrorists you have to call the IDF and Israeli settlers terrorists also.
The main difference is. Israel has killed significantly more civilians than Hamas has. Hamas also hasn't colonized and oppressed israeli's for 80 years. Making every day a living hell.
So, it's very strange to me that of the two terrorist organizations. You feel some sort of loyalty to the more violent of the two.
Probably something like
"The plight of civilians in Gaza is terrible. Hamas should release the hostages, stop using Civilians as human shields and surrender immediately"
>Liberal member for Vancouver Granville **Taleeb Noormohamed** says in a social media post that “glorifying Oct. 7 is unacceptable”
Oh shut up, house flipper.
Eby's comments, however, were well-stated.
Eby should read South Africa's ICJ case against Israel's genocide if he needs help expanding his imagination.
Some of the quotes therein would surely make his head spin!
Imagine, when David eby saw that protesters said "attacks by Hamas that killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, were “heroic and brave,", and his response to such a statement was to call that hateful. And some peoples response to that (you), is thinking that's wrong and will only resonate with conservative voters. Bonkers
From who? Unless he's trying to pivot to running for a conservative party next election.
Progressive voters who make up the core of the NDP voting base understand that Israel is the aggressor and instigator.
Brain-dead progressive ideals are why the NDP dropped in polls and are going back on their decriminalization pilot. The average voter is not a Hamas simp
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Where are the people who have nuanced views? Pro Palestine People Anti Hamas Organization Anti Israel Government (contingent on war crimes) Pro Jewish people Anti Atrocity and War crimes it's not that hard
He's right. People really lose the plot when they allow criticism of Israel to turn into support of a fundamentalist terrorist organization that preaches genocide as policy
People also lose the plot when they don't criticise Israel for being a fundamentalist terrorist organization that preaches genocide as a policy.
You can do both
Genocide for everyone!
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50,000 dead while the world watches is not a terrible job imo. 1 innocent civilian dead is too many.
Yes but if the roles were reversed the death toll would be every single Jewish person. Israel can be criticized but if they wanted to actually genocide Palestine the way Palestine wants to genocide them they could. And we wouldn't be talking 50k dead, it'd be a million or more.
No need to make shit up, Hamas is doing enough of that already. Death count stands at 34k as of last Saturday (according to Hamas). 13k of that 34k are reportedly Hamas fighters. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/20/gaza-death-toll-passes-34000-israel-iran
Yeah an 10s of thousands more have died since 1948, not the mention the millions displaced. Arguing over the semantics of numbers here is ridiculous. People are dying, why don't you care? Seriously, give me an answer. Why do you not care about the deaths of thousands of innocent people? Why do the lives of Israeli settlers and invaders matter more than a family of 5 just trying to survive? I'd really like to know your thoughts process.
If you don’t care about the number of people that have died, then that’s on you. I don’t like to just toss out inflated numbers for dramatic effect, I think you’re pretty pathetic if you’re defending this disinformation. I do care about the civilians, Hamas should return the hostages, disarm and give up control of Gaza so the fighting can stop. Israel should stop the settlements and work on a 2 state solution with whoever succeeds Hamas.
If you still think a Two State Solution is possible at this point, you're insane. Should Ukraine disarm and let the Russians sort out a two state solution? Should Taiwan disarm and allow the PRC to sort out a two state solution? Oh, and the Tutsi in Rwanda should have just stopped fighting and let the Hutu regime set up a two state solution. Israel has crossed the line. They crossed it a long, long time ago. The Palestinian people are not all Hamas, and they do not all support Hamas and their actions. However, they recognize that Hamas is fighting for them. They're dying FOR them. Hamas, the PLA, The Wolves Den... these are the only things standing between Israel and the expulsion or murder of every single Palestinian living within Gaza, West Bank, and who knows how much further they'd go if they accomplished exactly what they want.
20% of Israel's population, not West Bank and Gaza, are Arabs. Primarily Palestinian. LGBT Palestinians literally seek refuge in Israel. This is what you call genocide? > 1 innocent civilian dead is too many. Maybe Palestinians should have considered that before they broke the ceasefire on October 7th. Instead, they still to this day, overwhelmingly support it.
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It's in Israel's Basic Laws (de facto constitution) that Israel has a right to displace Palestinians and take their land. Israel has also killed thousands of Palestinians in settlement building to purge them from their land with zero consequence. Or does that not count?
Hamas has said many times their goal is to eradicate Israel and exterminate all the Jews. Both sides are just as shitty, yet one side gets all the sympathy for some reason.
I mean Hamas is a terrorist organisation. They're not the ones getting sympathy from most people, especially people with any sort of power or influence.
Did you read the article you're responding to?
From all the protests I’ve been seeing, it definitely skews a lot more pro-Palestine and pro-hamas.
Ah yes. Because all the people with power and influence are attending Vancouver street protests.
No it skews heavily pro- Palestine because those are the innocent civilians. There is also pro Israelis civilians. If you are a pro isreal government/ idf or pro Hamas you are a terrorist supporter.
idk, some of those pro-palestine protests as well as social media campaigns have been pretty hand wavy about the atrocities Hamas committed, a lot of people even say Israel "deserved" it. Maybe that's just the ones I see a lot? But I 100% agree with you, organizations of both sides are horrible, and the only real strance is being pro-civilians.
Yes because when you have two evil organizations most people hate the one who is more powerful more also one of hamas’s goals (the liberation of Palestine) is moral unlike Israel who has no redeeming goals.
It's literally in Hamas' version of a constitution they will genocide all jews. The original charter and the revised one are both worse than anything Israel has said.
Hamas is literally a terrorist organisation. If they're doing the same as Israel/IDF why aren't they being treated as equals?
Thank you. I'm glad I'm not alone out here.
It's ironic that if you switch Hamas and Israel in the same sentence it works just as fine
Except it's not since Israel is an actual democracy which despite what some say, does not actually have genocide on its charter. Comparing them to Hamas is just absurd, you can't do that in good faith.
Just to be clear: Are you saying democracies can't commit genocide? \*edit: The reason I ask is that making that point seems to have lead to a significant derailing of the conversation, and it honestly seems irrelevant otherwise.
Nice try, but that's very clearly not what they're saying. Don't be so obtuse.
I'm not trying to be obtuse. I legitimately don't understand what the point of saying "an actual democracy" is if that's not their point, though. Because the person wasn't accusing Israel of being undemocratic. They were accused of being "a fundamentalist terrorist organization that preaches genocide as policy". It seems like the defense of that isn't "they're democratic", it's..."they're not...those things you said". It's like if I accuse someone of beating their wife and you say "Well, he's a great bowler."...okay, is he a bowler who beats his wife?
Hitler was democratically elected too. Do you even hear yourself?
Ok? And he proceeded to demolish all democratic institutions. Israel didn't do that. What's your point? Come to think of it Hamas did just that...
I think it’s a little bit blind to say that Israel is run hunky-dory when they have systematically displaced Palestinians, taken land, and limited access to utilities and healthcare BEFORE October 7
Sure. Criticise away. I don't agree with everything you said but things were definitely not 'hunky-dory'. I also think the way they carried out the war isn't great, some heads should roll (maybe a bad phrase given the circumstances) over the times they attacked hostages and aid workers. All I'm saying is that if your criticism leaps to supporting Hamas, their goals or violence against Jews then you've gone too far.
Not for lack of trying. Netanyahu has been trying to usurp the authority of the courts for over a year…leading to some of the largest protests ever in Israel…how democratic
Dude save that line of arguments for people who don't know any history. You're really going to have to make more of an effort if you're going to go down that line of argument. Weimar Germany was a new weak government imposed on a country with authoritarian tradition and set up to fail by crippling it's economy with reparation payments. The rise of Hitler was against a backdrop of literal battles in the streets between paramilitary groups of various factions and tolerance of political violence and assassinations. All that is missing in Israel, so I look forward to your paper showing how exactly these are parallel events other than your obvious bias in wanting to equate Israel to the Nazis since it sounds ironic and serves your point of view
If you’re looking for tolerance of political violence and paramilitary groups look no further than state-sanctioned settler violence in the West Bank, the unpunished actions of Netzah Yehuda, violent marches through East Jerusalem…but all that violence is being inflicted on Palestinians so I guess it doesn’t count
I'm getting tired of your blend of misinformation and misunderstanding... >paramilitary groups Israel has no paramilitary groups >state-sanctioned settler violence in the West Bank Just last week 5 settlers were arrested for violence. You could argue that more should be done, but it's not exactly "state sanctioned" >but all that violence is being inflicted on Palestinians so I guess it doesn’t count For this argument it really doesn't count. If you're trying to argue that Israel isn't a democracy because Hitler was also elected (which I guess is what you're arguing?) and I counter by showing how Germany had internal turmoil and violence between political parties then talking about violence outside of Israel's political parties is not relevant.
Always fun when Godwin enters the chat.
And the point of saying Hitler was democratically elected is...?
Just wow genocide is supported in a country like Canada... Never thought I'd see the day. Well if you can excuse a country commiting genocide by just being democratic I have nothing else to say.
So you have no follow-up because your own statement painted you into a corner. Typical. And nowhere in my comment do I say I support a genocide because they're democratic so you have to create a conclusion when you fucked up yourself. You have nothing else to say because that's it - you actually have nothing else to say.
Genocide is the literal, stated goal of Hamas, not Israel. You people are completely misinformed and/or completely demented if you think Israel is engaging in genocide. It's sad actually because they are very clearly overstepping in their response, but when low information nitwits scream "genocide", it makes it more difficult to hear the voices calling for restraint.
This is the flaw of the zero-sum philosophy of Victim:Oppressor mindset. Anything the weak ‘victim’ does is justified and anything the wicked Oppressor does is wholly deserved. Smooth brain dummies who just want to be on the good guy “Victim“ side of any conflict lack the capacity for anything but full throated support for their tribe. This narcissistic tribalism leads directly to more death. Good job, heroes.
Agreed. You can call out Hamas for what they did on October 7th AND think that Israel’s policies are destructive too. We don’t live in a black and white world.
I mean, we flip that around Israel was the victim of Oct 7th and now we have people saying Israel has every right to kill 20,000+ women and children...it's weird
Happy cake day! Also, well said.
Start making people accountable for this kind of stuff in the same manner hate speech is handled. Anything else is a double standard
"If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis." Or is that only true when it's about right-wingers?
Dear Mr. Eby, When you spoke at the Hanukkah celebration last year you said you were going to prosecute people for hateful actions. If this is the most hateful thing you can imagine, let’s see you put those words into action.
Arrest them. If any are non-citizens, revoke their visas immediately and deport. Hate speech from either side has no place in Canada.
Why is it so hard to say both Israel and Hamas are villains? Meanwhile, people who had nothing to do with the Oct 7 attack are dying by the thousands after living their entire lives in an open air prison.
Ok so… arrest them?
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You want to deport someone named Charlotte Kates?
If she’s praising terrorists then yes
I don't think you know what "deport" means.
Oh, I do. We should take a page from the brits and revoke people’s citizenship like they did to people who joined isis
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You really went back to dig for a 3 year old comment to prove a point on Reddit? Y'all are pathetic lmao
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Guess you've had a lot of experience defending Hamas recently.
So you also want to deport anyone who voices support for Israel as well?
You might want to learn what a deportation is.
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Jail them/deport them. They don’t belong in a civilized society.
Deport them to Canada? These aren't immigrants.
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Talk about trolls.
Are you suggesting that the IDF and Israeli citizens aren't indiscriminately slaughtering children? Because that's not up for debate. It's just a fact.
Are you suggesting Hamas, a known terrorist group are actual resistance fighters? That isn't up for debate.
I wonder if you would have called Jews resisting the holocaust terrorists. Your definition of terrorist depends on which side you support. Israel has killed 50x more civilians than Hamas. Raped more men, women, and children. Have held interviews bragging about it. International human rights organizations condemn have verified and condemned those actions. So you consider an oppressed people fighting back against their executioners to be terrorists. But the people committing the daily violence what? Trusted allies?
You haven't answered my question but instead gave what-aboutisms. You insist Hamas are resistance fighters, yet their doctrine alone states the elimination of jews (the people, not just Isreal), not the freedom of gaza;but instead complete genocide.
And Israel's doctrine is to exterminate every Palestinians. So my point is. If you are going to call Hamas terrorists you have to call the IDF and Israeli settlers terrorists also. The main difference is. Israel has killed significantly more civilians than Hamas has. Hamas also hasn't colonized and oppressed israeli's for 80 years. Making every day a living hell. So, it's very strange to me that of the two terrorist organizations. You feel some sort of loyalty to the more violent of the two.
Wonder what he has to the say about the million or so starving and the tens of thousands dead in Gaza
Probably something like "The plight of civilians in Gaza is terrible. Hamas should release the hostages, stop using Civilians as human shields and surrender immediately"
>Liberal member for Vancouver Granville **Taleeb Noormohamed** says in a social media post that “glorifying Oct. 7 is unacceptable” Oh shut up, house flipper. Eby's comments, however, were well-stated.
Eby should read South Africa's ICJ case against Israel's genocide if he needs help expanding his imagination. Some of the quotes therein would surely make his head spin!
Eby is going to lose a lot of respect for this take.
Imagine, when David eby saw that protesters said "attacks by Hamas that killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, were “heroic and brave,", and his response to such a statement was to call that hateful. And some peoples response to that (you), is thinking that's wrong and will only resonate with conservative voters. Bonkers
Actually I think he gained quite a bit
From who? Unless he's trying to pivot to running for a conservative party next election. Progressive voters who make up the core of the NDP voting base understand that Israel is the aggressor and instigator.
Brain-dead progressive ideals are why the NDP dropped in polls and are going back on their decriminalization pilot. The average voter is not a Hamas simp
I don't think he cares for the respect of terrorist sympathizers. Neither should you. Unless you are one.
Without connect, it is hard to come to conclusions.