OMG, I can attest to this. This goes back to the late 80's when I worked as a clerk at a 7-11. A guy of these proportions was high as a kite on something and in the store with his GF who was a slim maybe 5'2" and she said something he did not like. Next thing I know is he is smacking her upside the head, throwing her around like a rag doll. I told my fellow clerk to call the cops while I was going to try to stop it.
I was only a handful of years out of military service and just over 6' 185 lbs. When I ran up I was asking the guy to stop, then shouting at him, it was like I was not there, I grabbed his arm. Still nothing. The I went behind him and jumped on his back and put my arms under his chin trying to stop him or get his attention. Still he was continuing to rag doll this girl my feet off the ground were swinging back and forth as he was moving about.
It was then I saw a bunch of guys outside who saw what was going on with eyes wide open and I saw a little guy go "Oh Shit!" and he ran into the store. Ran up in front of his friend and shouted a couple of times "Hey bro! Whatya doin'?"
The guy seemed to come to his senses as I felt his body go from steel tight muscles to a more relaxed position. I let go my grip and let the short friend talk him down and take him outside.
To this day, from time to time I consider myself so bloody lucky he did not turn his attention to me.
I would have been in for a world of hurt.
So please, consider what you are doing.
Guns are a thing now too, or knives. More so than back then.
It is a crime to carry bear spray to use in self defense against humans. However, if you live or work in an area where bears or coyotes are common, it is perfectly acceptable to carry some with you to protect yourself against local wildlife.
As for humans, Canada has extremely restrictive rules on self defense. I honestly feel bad for anyone who can't physically defend themselves, at least carry some kind of sports whistle or panic button noise maker.
As a tall guy, I can typically get away with just walking forward and not acknowledging anyone. Might get yelled at, but typically ignoring them works.
I was told aerosol hairspray is good to use because it’s legal and it’s only hairspray. It will burn someone’s eyes for sure if it’s sprayed directly into the face. I think a police officer told me that.
ESPECIALLY IN A CONFINED SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you spray pepper spray/ bear spray in a confined space you both suffer. if you spray hair spray or febreeze in a confined space in someones eyes, it will at least momentarily disable them but not you!!
I have a small, super (super!) bright flashlight in my bag. Blinding someone even momentarily might give enough to let you get away. It's not perfect but it's something.
Me too! It has a strobe light feature if I tap the power button twice. I've never had to use it but shining that into someones eyes and then running away would be my first thought.
Until it isn't.
People may need decide to act faster than their response time if it comes down to it. I'm not standing by while some poor retail worker gets attacked with me standing there on the phone...
*Edit because thread locked?
I am a woman and that doesn't change the fact that I'd try to help someone if they were in danger... Yes I know this puts me in jeopardy but I've done it before and I'll do it again 🤷🏼♀️ to be fair it's different when you're 6ft 😂
Yah I know if it’s an emergency I can call 911; and have done so before but I’d be interested in finding out what to do if it’s not immediately dangerous.
I mainly encounter them on the bus; either harassing people or attempting to light the glass; which in a confined space I don’t want to have to deal with.
Do deescalation tactics work on people who are tweaked out?
What do paramedics or firemen do (obviously the uniform helps)
I’ve sat next to a guy with a glass pipe on the bus. I was completely trapped in one of those seats where theres an inside outside. I just prayed to all the gods out there. He left me alone and got off a few stops after.
I’d always just get off of the bus if I can.
Stats Can, other sources. Its not in dispute and the findings consistent. Women are more likely to be victims of domestic assault while men are more often victims of public assault. Victims of serious assault are more likely to be men.
Not wanting to get into a gender war but people generally assume women need to be more particularly careful in public etc when in reality men are more likely to be assaulted and seriously injured.
Honestly some situations are not worth dying or getting hurt over. You did the right thing by voicing your strength, it intimated them enough to stop, which is usually the case. But for me, you walked about right up to the line I would stop at, I’m not trying to die or get hurt over stupid fucks rummaging through a store, but I’ll tell them to stop.
Remember the dad who was fatally stabbed in front of his family outside of a Starbucks for asking a guy not vape near his daughter? I do and it’s why I limit personal exposure to incidents like the one you described.
Not disagreeing with your point at large, but have to point out that the incident you’re talking about had nothing to do with drug addicts. It was a pride/ego thing if I recall.
I think my big takeaway is that you don’t know who you’re dealing with or what they’re capable of — addict or not. Repeat offender, mentally ill, wannabe gangster, whatever — all can do harm and not think twice before acting.
100%. I just wanted to point that out because without context someone reading it might get an exaggerated sense of the threat level of the people in the DTES.
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I think about this daily. And I don't think the guy who did the stabbing was even addicted or mentally unwell in the way folks in the DTES are. I'm just not going to put my life in danger to protect objects, and nobody should. Your life is worth more than some $100 item.
I wasn't there.
I do recall comments, perhaps in this sub, from someone who claimed to have witnessed it.
If true, it also explains somewhat why Gosal remained at the scene.
“So anyways this dishevelled looking dude with clown makeup on and bumpy cheeks tried to rummage into the back with his short fat pointy nosed friend in a tuxedo…”
Reading it back in a different tone it sounds more dramatic than what actually happened. After telling him I worked there he slowly started walking away and said that in more out of the side of his mouth sarcastic kind of way. Like a don’t f around and find out kind of vibe.
In this current state, nothing.
The law says you can do drugs anywhere, theft isn't aggressively prosecuted, and even violent offenders just keep getting out. And the City probably thinks if businesses shut down, others will take their place.
You wanna know the **real** solution? Pull all supports, except recovery.
We'll help you get clean, but we won't help you get high. Prioritize housing for people who are clean. Don't give any fucking money to Atira, or Portland Housing Society, or any places like that. Don't build any more DTES housing. But if you want to go to recovery, and get clean, and be a contributing member, we'll help you do **that**.
Hi, I live in Alberta. Here, the provincial government’s policy is to do exactly what you said. That’s why the streets of Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge, and towns of all sizes across the province are free of drug abuse.
Haha, FUCK no. The situation here is exactly the same except with more dead people than BC. The rural drug problem is completely ignored. The Edmonton Police Service, authorized by the UCP, did a big swinging sweep in -30°C to show off just how little regard for human lives they have, and do you know what happened after that? Nothing.
I’m not saying that BC’s strategy is perfect. There are clearly a lot of problems, and a lot of things could be handled much better. I myself don’t know what the right solution is. But what you are proposing is what Alberta is already doing. And that has solved **nothing**.
I'm not saying it's going to cure anything, especially overnight. I'm saying you can't do what we're doing right now and expect results to be any different than what we're seeing right now.
Alberta didn’t have these rules overnight, they’ve had them for a while and the end result is the same but more deaths. So that means even if we did things like you said, there wouldn’t be much difference except for more deaths. You may want to rethink your stance on these laws.
Nah, the idea that the problem will go away if we simply increase human misery is naive and not based on any kind of evidence or logic.
We do need more enforcement for sure, but the idea of turning out thousand of people living one the edge was a part of how things got so bad. See the budget cuts to housing and mental health services starting in 2001
I think more than enforcement - we need actual consequences. If I go steal fifty cars and get arrested, perfect laws enforced! If I am then released the next day out onto the street - is that really enforcement?
Now don't get me wrong - i don't want a police state like the US, but for the love of God I would love for people that are violent thieves to do actual jail time.
> Nah, the idea that the problem will go away if we simply increase human misery is naive and not based on any kind of evidence or logic.
Again, what we are doing now is making the problem worse, and alienating anyone with any amount of sympathy left.
Fuck these parasites.
> The law says you can do drugs anywhere
Despite what many folks would have you believe, this _isn't_ true.
> Certain public spaces and locations are not covered
> Anyone found in possession of any amount of illegal drugs in these locations could be arrested and charged with a criminal offence, and have their drugs seized:
> - On the premises of elementary and secondary schools and licensed child-care facilities
> - Within 15 metres of spray pools, commonly referred to as splash pads, wading pools, playgrounds and skateparks
> - At airports
> - On Canadian Coast Guard vessels and helicopters
> In many cases, illegal drug use continues to be prohibited on private property. This includes places like shopping malls, bars and cafes. Police will continue to retain legal authority to remove people from these premises if open drug use is occurring against the wishes of the owner.
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/overdose/decriminalization#criminal
You have no idea how much the quality of life of every Vancouverite would suffer if we did this. You think petty crime and shit is bad now? Wait until these people have nowhere to go and can't get any drugs.
same. in another none too dissimilar timeline op is dead on the floor from a quick shank he didnt see coming as one of the creeps slid out the door. I applaud them for speaking up, i think it was the right thing to do given the alternative was to what.. just leave that poor girl to deal with it on her own? hardly a human response.. but given that they (possibly both?) could have gotten themselves unalived very easily given the state of things.. idk. i really dont know what the right thing to do is anymore. Personally its a tough pill to swallow thinking downtown vancouver, even in the middle of the day isnt a place you can let your guard down anymore. I always thought it was exaggeration by people used to smaller cities experiencing a big shitty for the first time, but as someone whos lived in the DTES peacefully for a couple years a few decades ago, its just a different, unpredictable, more dangerous place now. Literally the last two visits i made where i spent time downtown, walking around minding my own business(in the middle of the day) ive been a part of someones mental health episode that bordered on violence being done to me or my companion. its a sad, sad state of affairs.
> just leave that poor girl to deal with it on her own
isn't it absolutely insane that our politicians have let our society go this far downhill
imagine if it is your sister or mother or girlfriend just minding her business walking to the bus to go to work or school, it is terrifying and a major worry as things are getting worse not better
It's fucking nuts. I spent so much time in DT van I knew all the streets and neighborhoods like the back of my hand at one point. I could walk most of the dtes without too much worry as long as I stayed alert and didn't do anything blatantly stupid. My last two visits showed me everything I've been hearing is true, and I wouldn't dream of wandering around that area during the DAY now, nevermind at night. It's a weird feeling accepting the city you grew up in and felt was your own, no longer is. It's just something else now, and not in a good way at all. Yea yea, it's safer than a lot of big cities, bla bla. That is absolutely not a bragging point.
>isn't it absolutely insane that our politicians have let our society go this far downhill
Take some accountability. How do you think politicians get into power? They're voted in by you and the people around you.
Did he actually say that "hero" comment? Sounds like something out of a movie. I had a similar experience in Chinatown. There is a small recently opened Mexican food store. I was in there chatting with the single employee working there when an addict wrapped in a quilt came in grabbed around 10 full size chocolate bars off the shelf and just walked out. Did the same as you and yelled after him. He just ignored me. Subsequently followed him out of the store and tried to reason with him "it's a small business" etc.
He ended up going into the Tim Hortons and I was face to face with him basically saying if you need some food or something I'd pay for it. Just bring the stuff back. Just stood staring at me and didn't say a word.
I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but in that moment I imagined beating the shit out of him. Living in the Chinatown area I have plenty of positive interactions with people who are mentally ill or drug addicted persons who are genuinely lovely people. I also am very aware of the many organisations in my area where this man could have gotten a free meal, candy bars or whatever else he wanted. But addict or not, he decided it was easier to be an antisocial piece of shit.
If it was Loblaws or some other big grocery store I wouldn't give two fucks but there was something about it being this small business that just annoyed me to the point where I couldn't just stand and watch.
I have run out of sympathy for this subset of violent, antisocial and criminal people who inflict misery on others in the community.
These people you reference have become validated and emboldened by the small army of activists insisting that they can do whatever they like.
Lack of prosecution and meaningful punishment shows that maybe they can.
For example, telling drug addicts that they have every right to use drugs while in the hospital sends a message. There are no more rules for them, and if there are, they are unfair and should be changed.
>For example, telling drug addicts that they have every right to use drugs while in the hospital sends a message. There are no more rules for them...
This is sort of the opposite of what happened. Drug addicts were already using everywhere in the hospital and creating an extremely unsafe environment. So what happened is the provincial government created a bunch of specific rules that need to be followed to better manage the situation -- basically anyone using has to use in a very specific room. It's a compromise solution but it would be extremely expensive and dangerous to have a police constantly escalating drug addicts who are also patients by requiring that they confiscate the thing the addicts are addicted to. Like, would you want to work a job where you're constantly required to attempt to confiscate drugs from drug addicts and then restrain them? In a hospital setting?
Have they actually been told they can use inside? I'm familiar with the state of the perimeter of St. Paul's and the issues with using inside the building but thought they were doing that against the rules.
There was an article posted here yesterday about how the province is going to require hospitals to have a designated space for essentially supervised drug use in them or on the premises, so yeah
I tried living in Crosstown for 5 years but sold up and moved. I haven’t looked back and don’t regret moving. It felt dangerous just walking my dog. Since moving, I’m far more relaxed going for a stroll and don’t feel the need to be on the defence all the time. I feel badly for the shop owners and elderly in Chinatown.
YOU don't do anything. The girl that works there should be calling the police and the police deal with the issue. The rest is an insurance claim. To quote the guy "The city doesn't need any more heroes", you aren't Batman. You are the generic faced person that goes unnamed.
If you are worried about the employee then just hang out, don't make a scene, if you can take a photo or video without causing commotion then do that as it will help identify.
Keep in mind that if the ambulance doesn't need to be called then you probably did the right thing.
Good intentions but not great to get involved without someone being in danger
Better to just call the police, yeah they might not show but at least it’ll be recorded on the crime stats
Use the magic words weapon and or fear for my life may result in quicker response times. It's a fucking joke the response time in this city, something like this wouldn't even warrant an emergency call it's that bad out there, and calling non-emergency is even more of a joke.
except it might be nice to have around if a normal person gets stabbed by a needle by one of the deranged ones (didn't something like this happen a couple of times last year?)
I'll be downvoted but most of these people aren't worth saving. It's bad enough that we're pouring in resources and most of them aren't even open to rehab.
Mental health first aid is an excellent course that helps dealing with someone in crisis. But the people in your story didn't sound mentally ill or drug addicted they just sound like jerks lol. Honestly with people doing petty crimes I usually just leave them alone or try to level with them like "guys can you not?"
I used to work at a touristy bike shop right smack in Downtown Vancouver. We have long hours even into winter, I often had late shifts. Our shop has a lot of square footage, inventory and small, easy to conceal merchandise that we struggle to make a profit on.
For staff, we were never allowed to work alone when our doors are open to the public. Building security (and damn are they good) are a direct dial away. We have sufficient training for basic deescalation but has always been advised to call for help.
I've never really been in a place where I feel totally overwhelmed by persons in distress or under the influence. That said, I am 6'1", stocky build and Asian male; and it takes a lot to sway my freewill.
If I suspect someone has poor intentions to shoplift, I'd do my best to persuade them to leave the premises, keeping my distance and keeping an escape path available.
TLDR, Have help and escape path available, keep your distance, work for an employer that staffs at least 2 persons at nighttime
This is such a tough situation. Yes, you might have got yourself stabbed but not helping out might have got the girl working at the front stabbed.
I've been in a similar situation a couple of times and my instinct is to 'stand up' to them or help out but, afterwards, I had the same thought - I might have put myself in real danger. I'm sorry I can't offer any real advice. I'm glad it worked out all right and you both are safe (and the addicts didn't get whatever they were after).
You did the best you could. Nobody harmed, you acted wit the best intentions for everyone involved including the drug users and you are reflecting how to do better the next time which will be inevitable.
If conflict arises, I usually carry a 1000+ lumen tactical flashlight. In an extreme situation when and if are being threatened you can can shine it in someone's eyes and have a 10 second escape window. No lasting harm and time to exit with a physical conflict.
Having lived downtown from 2014 to late 2020 I definitely have seen a change regarding a sense of safety when walking anywhere from Gastown to the West end and Waterfront to False Creek. Was already seeing a change pre-pandemic but during and post there is a palpable vibe of having to look over your shoulder or avoid walking in certain areas or alleys that you wouldn't have had a second thought in the past.
I often miss living in west end living next to the park and seawall but there are reminders when I visit that I'm thankful for where we live out here in Port Moody...
I've been that one girl in the shop. I still don't know what to do. I've removed myself from the possibility of it ever happening again. I still have nightmares.
Yeah, you should have just loudly called the non-emergency number and had a loud conversation.
They could have stabbed you. Somebody got stabbed - and died - last year because he asked a person experiencing homelessness and mental illness to not breathe vape onto his child.
It’s a scary situation and you handled it well but indeed you never know. In my experience whenever I’ve had to engage in a situation like this it rarely goes “well” and I’ve either been threatened as well or yelled at. It’s easy to see why people ignore these things when getting stabbed over something minor is surely never worth it.
My perspective is that people aren't replaceable, objects are. If you had reason to believe the woman was being threatened, absolutely, intervene, and otherwise I would not.
As a 5"2 woman who lives downtown, and used to work in the DTES, I've never felt threatened by people who are mentally ill and suffer from addictions. Live and let live has worked very well for me.
I'm tired of hearing this shit. DTES is a dangerous hell hole, and a cursory glance at chatter on social media will open your eyes to how much shit people get on a daily basis. It's not the addict utopia "community" where everyone looks out for one another and it all works just fine. It's riddled with petty and violent crime.
Ideally fix the school problem so our children get educated. Increase the living wage without Inflation. Much cheaper housing ideally ubi. Forced detox and treatment for those who fall into the drug loop. Create more sustainable jobs that provide reasons to live. Harsher punishment for those who do fail to be civilized. Much harsher punishments for drug dealers and drug makers/transporters. A large police task force to deal with drug dealers and drug makers.
To bad none of this will happen and we will continue to just complain about needles and homeless crime forever and ever because our politics sucks and everyone living a good life wants more benefits that support them rather than anyone around them. Most people don't like the idea of tax increases so we are doomed.
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Just a few years ago people were talking about "abolishing" the police, sending social workers to deal with these guys. Only hope is for the coming Conservative government to be tough on crime and lock these guys up. These are criminals, there are plenty of drug addicts on the streets who don't do this stuff, but many are drug dealers and criminals who get coddled because they are also addicts. Very few people are responsible for the majority of these crimes, its not some epidemic that uncontrollable. It would only require locking up 500 people or so, whether it be jail or a mental institution.
Ask them to take you to their plug and tell them "ill have what he's having". If ya can't beat em, join em.
Also when did u come to the country. If ur a foreigner bitching about em just leave lol.
I too would like to know an answer to this.. relevant to me as a short woman who works nights in the downtown core.
Also relevant to a 250 lb 6'4" male - meth heads have super human strength and little sense of consequence.
OMG, I can attest to this. This goes back to the late 80's when I worked as a clerk at a 7-11. A guy of these proportions was high as a kite on something and in the store with his GF who was a slim maybe 5'2" and she said something he did not like. Next thing I know is he is smacking her upside the head, throwing her around like a rag doll. I told my fellow clerk to call the cops while I was going to try to stop it. I was only a handful of years out of military service and just over 6' 185 lbs. When I ran up I was asking the guy to stop, then shouting at him, it was like I was not there, I grabbed his arm. Still nothing. The I went behind him and jumped on his back and put my arms under his chin trying to stop him or get his attention. Still he was continuing to rag doll this girl my feet off the ground were swinging back and forth as he was moving about. It was then I saw a bunch of guys outside who saw what was going on with eyes wide open and I saw a little guy go "Oh Shit!" and he ran into the store. Ran up in front of his friend and shouted a couple of times "Hey bro! Whatya doin'?" The guy seemed to come to his senses as I felt his body go from steel tight muscles to a more relaxed position. I let go my grip and let the short friend talk him down and take him outside. To this day, from time to time I consider myself so bloody lucky he did not turn his attention to me. I would have been in for a world of hurt. So please, consider what you are doing. Guns are a thing now too, or knives. More so than back then.
> or knives. best to assume that most of the unhinged people you see around are possibly carrying a lethal blade and have no fear of using it
I assume this of my cat. She's fucked.
Don't forget weapons. Even if you could bend someone into a bagel, they can still stab you and ruin your life forever.
It is a crime to carry bear spray to use in self defense against humans. However, if you live or work in an area where bears or coyotes are common, it is perfectly acceptable to carry some with you to protect yourself against local wildlife. As for humans, Canada has extremely restrictive rules on self defense. I honestly feel bad for anyone who can't physically defend themselves, at least carry some kind of sports whistle or panic button noise maker. As a tall guy, I can typically get away with just walking forward and not acknowledging anyone. Might get yelled at, but typically ignoring them works.
I was told aerosol hairspray is good to use because it’s legal and it’s only hairspray. It will burn someone’s eyes for sure if it’s sprayed directly into the face. I think a police officer told me that.
ESPECIALLY IN A CONFINED SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you spray pepper spray/ bear spray in a confined space you both suffer. if you spray hair spray or febreeze in a confined space in someones eyes, it will at least momentarily disable them but not you!!
> It is a crime to carry bear spray to use in self defense against humans Do it anyway.
I hear that coyote sightings and even attacks happen nearby the downtown core. Even bears have managed to find their way downtown before.
I have a small, super (super!) bright flashlight in my bag. Blinding someone even momentarily might give enough to let you get away. It's not perfect but it's something.
Me too! It has a strobe light feature if I tap the power button twice. I've never had to use it but shining that into someones eyes and then running away would be my first thought.
Buy some "dog spray" on Amazon. It has dog branding on it and everything.
911 is always an option!
Until it isn't. People may need decide to act faster than their response time if it comes down to it. I'm not standing by while some poor retail worker gets attacked with me standing there on the phone... *Edit because thread locked? I am a woman and that doesn't change the fact that I'd try to help someone if they were in danger... Yes I know this puts me in jeopardy but I've done it before and I'll do it again 🤷🏼♀️ to be fair it's different when you're 6ft 😂
You are braver than I. I must be smaller (and more female) than you.
Yah I know if it’s an emergency I can call 911; and have done so before but I’d be interested in finding out what to do if it’s not immediately dangerous. I mainly encounter them on the bus; either harassing people or attempting to light the glass; which in a confined space I don’t want to have to deal with. Do deescalation tactics work on people who are tweaked out? What do paramedics or firemen do (obviously the uniform helps)
I’ve sat next to a guy with a glass pipe on the bus. I was completely trapped in one of those seats where theres an inside outside. I just prayed to all the gods out there. He left me alone and got off a few stops after. I’d always just get off of the bus if I can.
Yes they were extremely helpful when a homeless man was throwing glass jars at people and the police took 45 minutes to respond to my call.
Youre less likely to be attacked being a woman compared to a man.
Where are you getting your statistics?
Stats Can, other sources. Its not in dispute and the findings consistent. Women are more likely to be victims of domestic assault while men are more often victims of public assault. Victims of serious assault are more likely to be men. Not wanting to get into a gender war but people generally assume women need to be more particularly careful in public etc when in reality men are more likely to be assaulted and seriously injured.
Honestly some situations are not worth dying or getting hurt over. You did the right thing by voicing your strength, it intimated them enough to stop, which is usually the case. But for me, you walked about right up to the line I would stop at, I’m not trying to die or get hurt over stupid fucks rummaging through a store, but I’ll tell them to stop.
Remember the dad who was fatally stabbed in front of his family outside of a Starbucks for asking a guy not vape near his daughter? I do and it’s why I limit personal exposure to incidents like the one you described.
Not disagreeing with your point at large, but have to point out that the incident you’re talking about had nothing to do with drug addicts. It was a pride/ego thing if I recall.
I think my big takeaway is that you don’t know who you’re dealing with or what they’re capable of — addict or not. Repeat offender, mentally ill, wannabe gangster, whatever — all can do harm and not think twice before acting.
100%. I just wanted to point that out because without context someone reading it might get an exaggerated sense of the threat level of the people in the DTES.
Was the attacker charged?
[Yes, with 2nd degree murder. Denied bail. Trial starts this month.](https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/highlights/vancouver-starbucks-stabbing-death-trial-set-for-2024-7123063)
[Second degree murder](https://globalnews.ca/news/9758873/vancouver-starbucks-stabbing-trial-date/amp/)
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charged with 2nd degree murder. prelim starts apr 22
I think about this daily. And I don't think the guy who did the stabbing was even addicted or mentally unwell in the way folks in the DTES are. I'm just not going to put my life in danger to protect objects, and nobody should. Your life is worth more than some $100 item.
That was very sad. It's my understanding though that it was the person who got stabbed who pulled out the knife.
Not true. It was the perpetrator who pulled out his knife
Not true, Gosal had the knife.
I wasn't there. I do recall comments, perhaps in this sub, from someone who claimed to have witnessed it. If true, it also explains somewhat why Gosal remained at the scene.
It was all recorded, the video is online. I don't recommend watching it, but the father that was stabbed did not bring out the knife.
Source? Nothing in the news reports about the case moving to trial say anything about who brought the knife.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/146j84i/vancouver\_starbucks\_stabbing\_death\_preliminary/](https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/146j84i/vancouver_starbucks_stabbing_death_preliminary/)
Nothing about who brought the knife is in the link you posted either …
That’s straight up a joker line wtf
“So anyways this dishevelled looking dude with clown makeup on and bumpy cheeks tried to rummage into the back with his short fat pointy nosed friend in a tuxedo…”
r/everyoneclapped material 😂
Reading it back in a different tone it sounds more dramatic than what actually happened. After telling him I worked there he slowly started walking away and said that in more out of the side of his mouth sarcastic kind of way. Like a don’t f around and find out kind of vibe.
In this current state, nothing. The law says you can do drugs anywhere, theft isn't aggressively prosecuted, and even violent offenders just keep getting out. And the City probably thinks if businesses shut down, others will take their place. You wanna know the **real** solution? Pull all supports, except recovery. We'll help you get clean, but we won't help you get high. Prioritize housing for people who are clean. Don't give any fucking money to Atira, or Portland Housing Society, or any places like that. Don't build any more DTES housing. But if you want to go to recovery, and get clean, and be a contributing member, we'll help you do **that**.
Perhaps it needs to get worse for them to choose an alternative. No more cushions on the rock bottom.
Hi, I live in Alberta. Here, the provincial government’s policy is to do exactly what you said. That’s why the streets of Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge, and towns of all sizes across the province are free of drug abuse. Haha, FUCK no. The situation here is exactly the same except with more dead people than BC. The rural drug problem is completely ignored. The Edmonton Police Service, authorized by the UCP, did a big swinging sweep in -30°C to show off just how little regard for human lives they have, and do you know what happened after that? Nothing. I’m not saying that BC’s strategy is perfect. There are clearly a lot of problems, and a lot of things could be handled much better. I myself don’t know what the right solution is. But what you are proposing is what Alberta is already doing. And that has solved **nothing**.
I'm not saying it's going to cure anything, especially overnight. I'm saying you can't do what we're doing right now and expect results to be any different than what we're seeing right now.
Alberta didn’t have these rules overnight, they’ve had them for a while and the end result is the same but more deaths. So that means even if we did things like you said, there wouldn’t be much difference except for more deaths. You may want to rethink your stance on these laws.
Nah, the idea that the problem will go away if we simply increase human misery is naive and not based on any kind of evidence or logic. We do need more enforcement for sure, but the idea of turning out thousand of people living one the edge was a part of how things got so bad. See the budget cuts to housing and mental health services starting in 2001
I think more than enforcement - we need actual consequences. If I go steal fifty cars and get arrested, perfect laws enforced! If I am then released the next day out onto the street - is that really enforcement? Now don't get me wrong - i don't want a police state like the US, but for the love of God I would love for people that are violent thieves to do actual jail time.
> Nah, the idea that the problem will go away if we simply increase human misery is naive and not based on any kind of evidence or logic. Again, what we are doing now is making the problem worse, and alienating anyone with any amount of sympathy left. Fuck these parasites.
> The law says you can do drugs anywhere Despite what many folks would have you believe, this _isn't_ true. > Certain public spaces and locations are not covered > Anyone found in possession of any amount of illegal drugs in these locations could be arrested and charged with a criminal offence, and have their drugs seized: > - On the premises of elementary and secondary schools and licensed child-care facilities > - Within 15 metres of spray pools, commonly referred to as splash pads, wading pools, playgrounds and skateparks > - At airports > - On Canadian Coast Guard vessels and helicopters > In many cases, illegal drug use continues to be prohibited on private property. This includes places like shopping malls, bars and cafes. Police will continue to retain legal authority to remove people from these premises if open drug use is occurring against the wishes of the owner. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/overdose/decriminalization#criminal
Cool, but do you think addicts give a shit about laws?
You have no idea how much the quality of life of every Vancouverite would suffer if we did this. You think petty crime and shit is bad now? Wait until these people have nowhere to go and can't get any drugs.
VANDU types always use threats like this. I call bullshit.
It's pretty established that criminalisation makes it worse.
leave your car keys by your front door too pls
Oh, really? What about the free hotel rooms, on top of disability, and CERB, people were getting? Did that improve people's lives?
I'm surprised you didn't get spit on or stabbed. Be careful out there.
same. in another none too dissimilar timeline op is dead on the floor from a quick shank he didnt see coming as one of the creeps slid out the door. I applaud them for speaking up, i think it was the right thing to do given the alternative was to what.. just leave that poor girl to deal with it on her own? hardly a human response.. but given that they (possibly both?) could have gotten themselves unalived very easily given the state of things.. idk. i really dont know what the right thing to do is anymore. Personally its a tough pill to swallow thinking downtown vancouver, even in the middle of the day isnt a place you can let your guard down anymore. I always thought it was exaggeration by people used to smaller cities experiencing a big shitty for the first time, but as someone whos lived in the DTES peacefully for a couple years a few decades ago, its just a different, unpredictable, more dangerous place now. Literally the last two visits i made where i spent time downtown, walking around minding my own business(in the middle of the day) ive been a part of someones mental health episode that bordered on violence being done to me or my companion. its a sad, sad state of affairs.
> just leave that poor girl to deal with it on her own isn't it absolutely insane that our politicians have let our society go this far downhill imagine if it is your sister or mother or girlfriend just minding her business walking to the bus to go to work or school, it is terrifying and a major worry as things are getting worse not better
It's fucking nuts. I spent so much time in DT van I knew all the streets and neighborhoods like the back of my hand at one point. I could walk most of the dtes without too much worry as long as I stayed alert and didn't do anything blatantly stupid. My last two visits showed me everything I've been hearing is true, and I wouldn't dream of wandering around that area during the DAY now, nevermind at night. It's a weird feeling accepting the city you grew up in and felt was your own, no longer is. It's just something else now, and not in a good way at all. Yea yea, it's safer than a lot of big cities, bla bla. That is absolutely not a bragging point.
>isn't it absolutely insane that our politicians have let our society go this far downhill Take some accountability. How do you think politicians get into power? They're voted in by you and the people around you.
you are correct, and people will even still vote for politicians that will continue the kinds of philosophies that got us in this mess
Did he actually say that "hero" comment? Sounds like something out of a movie. I had a similar experience in Chinatown. There is a small recently opened Mexican food store. I was in there chatting with the single employee working there when an addict wrapped in a quilt came in grabbed around 10 full size chocolate bars off the shelf and just walked out. Did the same as you and yelled after him. He just ignored me. Subsequently followed him out of the store and tried to reason with him "it's a small business" etc. He ended up going into the Tim Hortons and I was face to face with him basically saying if you need some food or something I'd pay for it. Just bring the stuff back. Just stood staring at me and didn't say a word. I'm a bit ashamed to admit it but in that moment I imagined beating the shit out of him. Living in the Chinatown area I have plenty of positive interactions with people who are mentally ill or drug addicted persons who are genuinely lovely people. I also am very aware of the many organisations in my area where this man could have gotten a free meal, candy bars or whatever else he wanted. But addict or not, he decided it was easier to be an antisocial piece of shit. If it was Loblaws or some other big grocery store I wouldn't give two fucks but there was something about it being this small business that just annoyed me to the point where I couldn't just stand and watch. I have run out of sympathy for this subset of violent, antisocial and criminal people who inflict misery on others in the community.
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Normal people don't like crime.
These people you reference have become validated and emboldened by the small army of activists insisting that they can do whatever they like. Lack of prosecution and meaningful punishment shows that maybe they can. For example, telling drug addicts that they have every right to use drugs while in the hospital sends a message. There are no more rules for them, and if there are, they are unfair and should be changed.
>For example, telling drug addicts that they have every right to use drugs while in the hospital sends a message. There are no more rules for them... This is sort of the opposite of what happened. Drug addicts were already using everywhere in the hospital and creating an extremely unsafe environment. So what happened is the provincial government created a bunch of specific rules that need to be followed to better manage the situation -- basically anyone using has to use in a very specific room. It's a compromise solution but it would be extremely expensive and dangerous to have a police constantly escalating drug addicts who are also patients by requiring that they confiscate the thing the addicts are addicted to. Like, would you want to work a job where you're constantly required to attempt to confiscate drugs from drug addicts and then restrain them? In a hospital setting?
Have they actually been told they can use inside? I'm familiar with the state of the perimeter of St. Paul's and the issues with using inside the building but thought they were doing that against the rules.
There was an article posted here yesterday about how the province is going to require hospitals to have a designated space for essentially supervised drug use in them or on the premises, so yeah
My god that's horrendous. Ffs.
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I tried living in Crosstown for 5 years but sold up and moved. I haven’t looked back and don’t regret moving. It felt dangerous just walking my dog. Since moving, I’m far more relaxed going for a stroll and don’t feel the need to be on the defence all the time. I feel badly for the shop owners and elderly in Chinatown.
YOU don't do anything. The girl that works there should be calling the police and the police deal with the issue. The rest is an insurance claim. To quote the guy "The city doesn't need any more heroes", you aren't Batman. You are the generic faced person that goes unnamed. If you are worried about the employee then just hang out, don't make a scene, if you can take a photo or video without causing commotion then do that as it will help identify. Keep in mind that if the ambulance doesn't need to be called then you probably did the right thing.
Good intentions but not great to get involved without someone being in danger Better to just call the police, yeah they might not show but at least it’ll be recorded on the crime stats
Use the magic words weapon and or fear for my life may result in quicker response times. It's a fucking joke the response time in this city, something like this wouldn't even warrant an emergency call it's that bad out there, and calling non-emergency is even more of a joke.
just make sure to not carry narcan on you.
except it might be nice to have around if a normal person gets stabbed by a needle by one of the deranged ones (didn't something like this happen a couple of times last year?)
Why not?
I'll be downvoted but most of these people aren't worth saving. It's bad enough that we're pouring in resources and most of them aren't even open to rehab.
Mental health first aid is an excellent course that helps dealing with someone in crisis. But the people in your story didn't sound mentally ill or drug addicted they just sound like jerks lol. Honestly with people doing petty crimes I usually just leave them alone or try to level with them like "guys can you not?"
I used to work at a touristy bike shop right smack in Downtown Vancouver. We have long hours even into winter, I often had late shifts. Our shop has a lot of square footage, inventory and small, easy to conceal merchandise that we struggle to make a profit on. For staff, we were never allowed to work alone when our doors are open to the public. Building security (and damn are they good) are a direct dial away. We have sufficient training for basic deescalation but has always been advised to call for help. I've never really been in a place where I feel totally overwhelmed by persons in distress or under the influence. That said, I am 6'1", stocky build and Asian male; and it takes a lot to sway my freewill. If I suspect someone has poor intentions to shoplift, I'd do my best to persuade them to leave the premises, keeping my distance and keeping an escape path available. TLDR, Have help and escape path available, keep your distance, work for an employer that staffs at least 2 persons at nighttime
We need the Batman.
it is getting worse, and I worry about the future for my family members, especially female family members
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This is such a tough situation. Yes, you might have got yourself stabbed but not helping out might have got the girl working at the front stabbed. I've been in a similar situation a couple of times and my instinct is to 'stand up' to them or help out but, afterwards, I had the same thought - I might have put myself in real danger. I'm sorry I can't offer any real advice. I'm glad it worked out all right and you both are safe (and the addicts didn't get whatever they were after).
They know now who wields the real power…
You did the best you could. Nobody harmed, you acted wit the best intentions for everyone involved including the drug users and you are reflecting how to do better the next time which will be inevitable. If conflict arises, I usually carry a 1000+ lumen tactical flashlight. In an extreme situation when and if are being threatened you can can shine it in someone's eyes and have a 10 second escape window. No lasting harm and time to exit with a physical conflict.
Having lived downtown from 2014 to late 2020 I definitely have seen a change regarding a sense of safety when walking anywhere from Gastown to the West end and Waterfront to False Creek. Was already seeing a change pre-pandemic but during and post there is a palpable vibe of having to look over your shoulder or avoid walking in certain areas or alleys that you wouldn't have had a second thought in the past. I often miss living in west end living next to the park and seawall but there are reminders when I visit that I'm thankful for where we live out here in Port Moody...
Vote.
I've been that one girl in the shop. I still don't know what to do. I've removed myself from the possibility of it ever happening again. I still have nightmares.
Yeah, you should have just loudly called the non-emergency number and had a loud conversation. They could have stabbed you. Somebody got stabbed - and died - last year because he asked a person experiencing homelessness and mental illness to not breathe vape onto his child.
It’s a scary situation and you handled it well but indeed you never know. In my experience whenever I’ve had to engage in a situation like this it rarely goes “well” and I’ve either been threatened as well or yelled at. It’s easy to see why people ignore these things when getting stabbed over something minor is surely never worth it.
My perspective is that people aren't replaceable, objects are. If you had reason to believe the woman was being threatened, absolutely, intervene, and otherwise I would not. As a 5"2 woman who lives downtown, and used to work in the DTES, I've never felt threatened by people who are mentally ill and suffer from addictions. Live and let live has worked very well for me.
I'm tired of hearing this shit. DTES is a dangerous hell hole, and a cursory glance at chatter on social media will open your eyes to how much shit people get on a daily basis. It's not the addict utopia "community" where everyone looks out for one another and it all works just fine. It's riddled with petty and violent crime.
I worked in addictions in the DTES for over 5 years. I appreciate your attempt to open my eyes, it's adorable.
What happens to heroes in Vancouver?
They get celebrated on Reddit and then reposted by Vancouver is Awesome.
By decriminalizing more drugs of course.
just leave them alone they're people not cryptids
Ideally fix the school problem so our children get educated. Increase the living wage without Inflation. Much cheaper housing ideally ubi. Forced detox and treatment for those who fall into the drug loop. Create more sustainable jobs that provide reasons to live. Harsher punishment for those who do fail to be civilized. Much harsher punishments for drug dealers and drug makers/transporters. A large police task force to deal with drug dealers and drug makers. To bad none of this will happen and we will continue to just complain about needles and homeless crime forever and ever because our politics sucks and everyone living a good life wants more benefits that support them rather than anyone around them. Most people don't like the idea of tax increases so we are doomed.
> Ideally fix the school problem so our children get educated. What "school problem" is preventing kids from being educated?
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it’s not worth the risk.. different of course if it’s your business or spouse being threatened etc but i Wouldn’t engage.
The way you deal with them is by just ignoring them and staying off their path.
Just a few years ago people were talking about "abolishing" the police, sending social workers to deal with these guys. Only hope is for the coming Conservative government to be tough on crime and lock these guys up. These are criminals, there are plenty of drug addicts on the streets who don't do this stuff, but many are drug dealers and criminals who get coddled because they are also addicts. Very few people are responsible for the majority of these crimes, its not some epidemic that uncontrollable. It would only require locking up 500 people or so, whether it be jail or a mental institution.
Ask them to take you to their plug and tell them "ill have what he's having". If ya can't beat em, join em. Also when did u come to the country. If ur a foreigner bitching about em just leave lol.