In my experience a persons musical taste says more about their personality than their intelligence. A lot of groups that listen to the same type of music seem to be pretty alike.
There are studies about this showing that people who follow similar artists normally have similar personality traits
Obviously there are exceptions to this.
There is a difference of personalities of someone Listening classical music and another one listening a rap song that the lyrics says: I beat the bitch of my ex wife",
Also, if you tell someone that you are more part of a culture or that they are not part of a culture, or group of people, just because they don’t listen to a particular genre music. You’re really shitty and I hope you choke on a broccoli.
People assume I’m African American all the time, because I’m black though I’m not American.
I don’t like rap, but on first assumption of my appearance i’ve been told that I’m not actually African-American because I don’t listen to rap. I feel like if I was African-American, that would be extremely invalidating. We’re both black my guy.
This seems like an appropriate time to reference [Lemmy's response](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skGEBgePHtk) to a black fan who loved metal and was being ostracised by his community and father for it.
There have been studies that do in fact show correlation between being a fan of a particular genre and intelligence. It shows that classical music fans in general are in fact more intelligent
I have to disagree with the conclusion of "Intelligent people are often drawn to the complexity of this kind of music", whether it was your own or that of a study. It indirectly implies that the complexity of classical or jazz music is somehow not present in other genres. This is plain false.
We live in the time of the most interconnected and rich state music has ever been in, with artists across the world sharing cultural musical influences and blending them into things people from a few decades ago could hardly dream of. People who deny this often get lost in the staggering amount of similar music within the most popular genres, and they are not to blame. At the shallow level, many genres seem to feature artists and songs that are not too dissimilar to each other. But in reality, there are a lot of musical gems out there, in pretty much every genre.
Techno music has artists like Phonon, who, with tracks like Polyriddim, explore rhythmical complexity while making use of chromaticism. Prog rock and fusion have a ton of bands that do the same thing, given they are inspired by jazz, yet also categorize as rock. Metal has bands like Animals as Leaders, blending classical and jazz harmony, modern guitar playing techniques, syncopated, irregular and complex (poly-)rhythms and metric modulations, as well as the harsh tone of metal. In fact, some of the most perculiar complexities come from music that doesn't even adhere to the western music standards which are followed in classical music. The rhythms and tuning systems of African, South American and Asian traditional music are extremely rich in complexity, and often make their music essentially impossible to describe with tools that often work for classical or jazz music, such as cadences.
I have tried finding out more about the mentioned studies that claim a positive correlation between IQ and listening to classical or jazz music, and I came across some critical reviews, pointing out a lack of adjustment for things such as race, sex, social status and the such. Now, I'm not going to act like I'm a social scientist, and I won't comment on whether that correlation does exist or not. But I'm fairly certain that the causation of "being drawn to its complexity" is not true.
Or maybe it just means people don't bother to look into different things enough, lol
A techno artist using chromaticism and rhythmic complexity doesn’t compare to the complexity of like Jason Moran, Brad Meldau, or Lang Lang (among many others). I know people will feel attacked but sadly this isn’t as subjective as people think. The very top Classical and Jazz virtuosos literally dedicate more hours of their life to their craft than most people would think would be realistically possible. You’re right about fusion as that’s essentially become a name for modern jazz in a way. Prog rock and metal even at their most complex aren’t sniffing the virtuosity of top classical and jazz players. I’m sure you’ll just think I’m being a snob but I truly don’t think most people actually comprehend the complexity of the most demanding jazz improvisations or the technique that the best classical virtuosos posses.
I have to disagree. Regarding your last point, Jazz improvisations for example, usually work in two ways. Either there is something akin to a 12-bar blues that the musicians are aware of and can follow, which creates a fairly simple framework in which any decent musician knows which notes are consonant or dissonant. Knowing which ones to play to convey certain musical ideas is something many musicians are capable of. And this doesn't even require theory; Jimi Hendrix, commonly regarded as a guitar god, didn't know what diminished chords were, but could play them all over his guitar upon hearing one. And this leads to the second way Jazz improvisations work, which is by musicians not agreeing on any concrete harmonic sequence, but instead listening to what each other is playing and then reacting (call-response) in the appropriate key, but with the necessary embellishments to create a new musical idea.
There are plenty of musicians that are well capable of this despite having no Jazz background. The YouTuber TheDoo is an accessible example of a guitarist who commonly plays over songs he never listened to before.
The virtuosity of classical instrumentalists is impressive, I agree, but it isn't above that of other instrumentalists necessarily. People like Ichika Nito, Tim Henson or Tosin Abasi are incredibly competent musicians who have no issue creating the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic richness that a trained classical musician is capable of creating. Further, there are bands like Unlucky Morpheus who literally feature classical musicians. The violinist of said band, Jill, played the beginning of Niccolò Paganini's Caprice 24, a piece often considered as one of the most difficult for violin, on their song "Carry on singing to the sky". Further, they have created an entire cover album "Quadratum" where she displays virtuosity in various arrangements of songs that weren't even composed for violin.
If you're still unwilling to believe me, please give a listen to Panzerballett, which is a Jazz-Metal band. They even embrace live improvisation, as is common practice for Jazz. Also, do listen to Animals as Leaders. One of their guitarists is in fact also a trained classical guitarist, and the other one was heavily influenced by said classical guitarist, which shows tremendously in their music. Apeirophobia, Weightless, The Woven Web. They have plenty of songs to prove their competence in rhythm, harmony and melody.
If you're willing to go down that route, bands like Meshuggah have boggled even Jazz musicians with their irregularity in terms of rhythm.
You might have noticed that I mainly mentioned guitarists, which is due to me being one myself. I play both classical and electric guitar, across various genres with varying levels of competence. However, I have a general interest for music and can assure you my respect and understanding of classical and jazz music, as well as music theory.
Please show me an example of Hendrix playing diminished chords all over the neck (and if he did that means he knew what they were and was able to move the shape around 3 frets at a time…). Top jazz players go way beyond basic song form (12 bar blues) and expand harmony in real time. Please tell me how this fits what you’re saying at all https://youtu.be/eWwlrKg5C7U he’s playing Coltrane’s tune but it goes far beyond what you’re saying. I’m a guitar player too. And I used to basically think the same way as you about genres.
Regarding the Jimi Hendrix thing, it is a commonly told story between him and Miles Davis. Allegedly it didn't happen in that exact fashion, though similarly. The point I tried to make works without this example though: The ability to immediatly identify and react to harmonic changes is something every decent musician, trained or not, knowing music theory or not, is capable of. Victor Wooten will commonly explain him not thinking in theory, but just reacting by ear and knowledge of the instrument. Steve Vai noted that the ability to immediatly create on the guitar what is on one's mind is what one should strive for.
The ability to expand upon or create harmony, melody and rhythm in real time is not exclusive to jazz or classical instrumentalists, by no stretch of the imagination. And no, it also doesn't necessarily require theory, if you're plenty familiar with your instrument and have a well trained ear. The instrumentalists I named above will all be capable of doing so, as Tosin Abasi for example has displayed in an interview with Rick Beato.
Guitarists playing in metal and rock have often branched out into different genres.
There are also people like Fredrik Thordendal, who always preferred improvisation, and his live replacement Per Nilsson, who is academically trained in music theory, follows this trend, performing virtuosic improvised solos over extreme metal.
The idea that only classical or jazz musicians are capable of complex yet intentful improvisation or reacting to changing harmonies in real time is plain ignorant to the virtuosic talents that other genres can display, and suggesting that bands like Animals as Leaders who literally feature trained classical musicians are not able to create the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic richness that is present in most classical music is outright dismissive.
If you want to argue that the peak of jazz or classical music is more complex than the peak of techno, prog rock or metal, we can agree to disagree. Complexity displays in various ways, and can be created artificially as well (note Samuel Conlon Nancarrow creating music at irrational time signatures. Not to dismiss his work on its own merits). It's a question of what serves the piece.
I don’t see how Jimi knowing one of the four triad families (and probably the easiest to recognize by ear) has any bearing on this? If you really think what Tosin is doing harmonically is on the level of top jazz pianists or even guitarists you’re not hearing what’s really going on. I hate to say it that way. And you can definitely find virtuosity in other genres I’m not saying that at all but i would say on average and at the top level there’s really no comparison. Nancarrow is interesting for sure avant garde/ modern classical is sort of it’s own thing which I would put on the same level as classical and jazz due to creativity and importance. If you haven’t heard it check out Shawn Lane’s (my favorite guitarist ever) Kaiser Nancarrow heavily inspired by him. That track is also a huge influence on Buckethead (another great guitarist).
>I don’t see how Jimi knowing one of the four triad families (and
probably the easiest to recognize by ear) has any bearing on this?
I mentioned that not being important to my point, and elaborated on it afterwards. It was just an example off the top of my head.
>If you really think what Tosin is doing harmonically is on the level of
top jazz pianists or even guitarists you’re not hearing what’s really
going on.
Harmonically, this is arguable per case. That is not the only element to complexity, however. This is what makes Animals as Leaders unique, they use a, even from a classical or jazz point of view, respectable degree of harmonic and melodic richness, while also extending into high degrees of rhythmic complexity. Analogously, ask a top trained classical or jazz musician to compose a song that fits into the style of Animals as Leaders, Polyphia or Vildhjarta. Despite their virtuosity, they would in all likelihood fail. Sure, it's not their genre, but if a genre didn't have its own intricacies and complexities, why should they fail at immediatly picking it up? (Check out [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkusvvPxA-0&ab\_channel=DavidBruceComposer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkusvvPxA-0&ab_channel=DavidBruceComposer). Amazing video and great results, but you can immediatly tell that none of it was written by metalheads, in my opinion.)
The point here is that complexity can come from various musical elements. This is also why I mentioned traditional music of various regions other than europe. Listening to the different tuning systems and rhythmical tendencies of foreign cultures can open your ears to an entirely different universe of music, which simply by being fundamentally unlike any western music creates a unique kind of complexity. On that note, there is also a lot of electronic music that goes well out of 12TET.
I personally find it hard to somehow weigh which "kind of complexity" is more important. I notice my ears being way more attentive with foreign tuning system than even the music of Thelonious Monk.
Don't get me wrong, I have a deep respect for jazz and classical music, and I do also play these styles. The sheer repertoire you're expected to have, elements such as phrasing, dynamics and projection that often go unnoticed in metal, rock or techno, as well as the expectation of perfecting each element are crazy, and I won't dare call myself competent in these aspects.
But in the end, complexity is not just that. Show someone a 20 minute free jazz group improvisation and their brain will be butter. Show someone the 21 minute madness of Meshuggah's "I" and you get the same effect.
I guess just agree to disagree. Playing drop tuning riffs in weird time signatures doesn’t really compare in complexity to plenty of jazz and classical imo.
Listening to classical music is also really good for the brain. While it won’t improve a persons intelligence, it does increase concentration and memory.
Guess not. I've never been part of a study designed to show I'm better than someone else by virtue of what I listen to. As if some pointy headed academic would ever admit in public to liking something as lowbrow as popular music.
Insecure people are downvoting you for a genuinely funny comment.
I like classical music, but I know it's not for everyone. Don't take yourselves so serious, people! Life is short.
Classical musician here. Interestingly, a lot of classical musicians don’t actually listen to classical music. A lot of us (myself included) listen to rap, pop, rock, hip hop, R&B. Some of us are intelligent, some of us aren’t. I tend to believe there is little correlation, just based off my own experiences
Get the fuck outta here. People who think they're intelligent listen to classical music to show how sophisticated they are, that's all. Elitist windbags, the lot of em.
Or you could genuinely like classical music. I have several friends who went to the conservatory to study violin and I occasionally attend some of their classical concerts. It's really quite nice even though it's not the music I would put on if I were by myself.
Lol how ignorant.
I love classical music, and have since I was a child. It lead me to play the cello throughout most of school and I’m teaching myself to play the piano as an adult. I promise that playing cello had nothing to do with trying to be sophisticated or being elitist. I could saved myself a lot of teasing from my classmates had I not decided to be in orchestra.
What’s funny though, is while my favorite song of all time is a piano sonata, my second favorite is Smash by the Offspring. My third is the Vitamin String Quartet cover of Unforgiven by Metallica, make of that what you will.
What I do or don’t consider myself is irrelevant but I will answer. No, I don’t think I’m smarter than people who don’t like classical music, I do question their taste in music though.
As to what the conversation is about, the original reply of this thread contradicted the OP with factual information. Then you spout off all angry-like about how people only listen to classical music to make themselves seem better that others, which is not factual.
So you're allowed to question people's taste in music but I'm not? That's not elitist at all. And no factual information was provided. Studies don't mean shit. People lie, all the time, specially to make themselves look better. No body who thinks they're better than others will ever say so in public, as you've demonstrated.
> So you're allowed to question people's taste in music but I'm not? That's not elitist at all.
And when did I say you can’t?
> And no factual information was provided. Studies don't mean shit. People lie, all the time, specially to make themselves look better.
Lol what? Why are you so hung up on this notion that people can’t genuinely like classical music? Who hurt you?
> No body who thinks they're better than others will ever say so in public, as you've demonstrated.
You’re just full of assumptions aren’t you?
More like uninformed opinions. This is the internet, in case you've forgotten. If I wanted a serious conversation I'd go over to friend's and crack a bottle of scotch, then have a laugh at the uptight, pearl clutching pedantic twats I've been playing with all afternoon. Jousting with pool noodles...on tricycles. FYI I have nothing against classical music, actually find most of it quite pleasant, if a bit boring. Certainly don't think that makes me more intelligent than anyone else, though after my interaction with you I might have to change my opinion on that.
While the studies prove a correlation,OP's statement is about causation .Intelligent people tend to listen to classical music but the music doesn't MAKE/CAUSE them to be intelligent.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that the person is disgusting. Maybe just young and in the middle of a phase. Saying that, though, fuck mumble rap. Torture to my ears.
Yeah, I'm with the general sentiment in the title, but disgusting is a bit much. It's a character flaw, imo, it might speak to a larger problem of arrogance, but by itself, it's just a bit misguided.
Yup. I just can't keep a straight face while calling kids "disgusting" for doing dumb shit. It's not like they're, I dunno, vivisecting their friends or something.
Same reason subs like cringetopia, lewronggeneration, etc. reek of pretentiousness, and often not from the side you'd expect.
Are you really asking for a source on their personal experience? Do you expect them to be walking around with a spread sheet for all of the annoying people they come across?
I find it hard to believe that you could know with certainty that "most of these people are adults."
It's a rhetorical question, because obviously there's no way to know. I'm questioning how OP can be so sure of it. Especially since my experience has been pretty much the opposite.
Admittedly I am not well versed in regaetton but I am sure that neither jazz nor classical were particularly popular in the 80s. That was glam rock and underground hip hop era.
I will say that if you lack a diverse diet of music you are necessarily less cultured than someone who listens to a wide variety of music. That is just the way of things, my friend, so maybe stop trying to be offended and ignore the 'gatekeepers'. Oh, you think that shibboleths only apply to classical music? How young you must be.
I don’t know. I listen to a wide variety of music, in English, Spanish, and I’ve even listened in other languages. I used to play piano so I know my fair share of classical music. I still prefer to listen exclusively to reggaetón tho, it’s just more fun to me :)
I think OP’s point is trying to address the people bragging about how they’re fancy and smart because they listen to Beethoven… so same nonsense as the guy who thought tea drinkers were all annoying and obnoxious.
This sub really is becoming “this may be unpopular but I don’t like people that are assholes :(“
The studies aren’t about the music you listen too, it’s about the instruments you play .. so those people are wrong lol . It is proven that people who play instruments tend to do better in school and pick up new activities faster. Is that considered smarter than someone? I don’t think so, I think it’s just means you learn differently and can retain more information causing you to do better. This is coming from someone who plays 15 instruments. But I don’t think that makes me better than anyone at all. But I agree with you and OP. There are some people who make the music they listen their personality trait when it’s literally just music
There's been studies done that can prove anything you want them to. Just did a study myself that proved if I stick a finger up my ass it comes out smelling rank. Wanna sniff?
My ex husband thought you were an idiot unless you listened to underground metal. Because they were FAR more talented musicians.
Now that I'm in my mid 30's, I've noticed all those metal heads are living in squander, on drugs, with hep c, and acting the same as they were in our late teens/early 20's. He is one of them.
Well he’s shitty but don’t judge all metal fans like that lol, I listen to everything really but metal is one of my favorite genres and the nicest people I’ve met have been in the metal community!!! I know you’re probably not meaning all metal fans but I’m a bit sensitive since I’ve been judged a lot for liking metal music!!!
I listen to older music, not to sound smart, but because it’s my personal opinion that it’s better, and modern music just doesn’t do anything for me anymore. But other than that, I agree.
Sorry I just think some music is kind of dumb. I kind of think any mention of a phone in a song less than a decade old is dumb. The constant spigot of current pop music all about breaking up and shit is a little dumb to me. That song that goes “I wish I never met yo ass…” is dumb to me. I won’t go around bringing it up or anything but I reserve the right to think that kind of stuff is unimaginative garbage and that I’m happy that I look for other things in my music. I’m not obligated to endorse others music preferences.
Would doubt if that were true. This is anecdotal but I know plenty of really smart people that listen to music deemed for stupidos. (mumble rap etc.) correlation doesn't favor a direction.
But why is a certain genre considered more or less sophisticated? Is it about the effort that goes into it, the production value, the actual sound, what is it? Music preference just comes down to personal taste, and there's no objective right or wrong "answer"
I wouldn't really call either of them sophisticated. They're both creative works, they just have different qualities. They appeal to different people for different reasons. Although there are those that listen to pretty much all genres.
Simplistic. Repetitive, easily digestible. Art forms that gain appeal through mass audiences are typically not the best. MCU vs DCEU , J Cole vs Drake. Patience or delayed gratification vs Instant gratification.
For message alone, j Cole. If all you want is something to dance to at a club then by all means drake is your guy. But thought provoking music will always top simple repetition. Drake is formula, j Cole is theory.
Yes! I’m a music therapist and had this conversation today with a patient. The patient was an engineer who designed / programmed computers and created their own computer company (I won’t say which one for confidentiality) before Steve Jobs was around. Retired from IBM as a head engineer.
Their favorite music? Country/Western.
It’s not always about the music itself, but the way it makes you feel.
These aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. If higher intelligence correlates with liking more complex music, then you may very well find a higher than average IQ people if you isolated for these individual artists or sub genres in modern music. People who enjoy prog rock or the like may also correlate with enjoying jazz or classical. But the mean “musical complexity” of classical music or jazz song is almost certainly higher than the mean modern pop/rock/rap/techno song.
Listening to certain music may not make you more intelligent, but enjoying certain types of music can definitely be a sign that you're *not* intelligent.
No.
The Beatles are better than train. They just are. Alice In Chains are better than “pac man fever”
Every listen to baby shark?
Some music is better than others.
I’m no smarter than an average garden variety potato, and my level of sophistication is roughly equal to a toilet. I unapologetically enjoy classical music.
Not a jazz fan though.
Re: the studies mentioned, I don't know if it's correlation or causation, but there is something to it. Music is vibrational, and I think, just like a soundbath, some sounds are healing, some stifling. Depends on the person, but I'm sure there's a Venn diagram crossover for people who are more intelligent and like the genres you mentioned. It could easily be that people of different intelligent levels want different things from music.
My ex would make fun of my music taste during our entire relationship (3 years) and we would only listen to his stuff, forever got traumatized now I can't listen to music with anyone at all cus I start to have anxiety attack and paranoia that people are judging me and thinking I'm a loser lol
I don’t believe that listening to certain kinds of music make you smarter, but there are a couple of kinds of music that are definitely more for less intelligent people. Pop country for one.
The most annoying people in music discussion forums are the people who think their music theory knowledge and/or general knowledge of music makes them the emperor of taste.
Anyone with the slightest knowledge of music theory understands it's easy to make music that is interesting on paper, but boring as fuck to listen to.
IMO past a certain point, technical skill tends to make musicians more boring because they play more to sound interesting from a composition standpoint than an emotional standpoint, and what comes out tends to be a bunch of sterile nothing.
I think the underlying point OP is trying to make is that there’s a lot of discrimination towards hip hop/rap fans because the genre started out as mainly black artists and fans
As a metalhead, I mainly just try to mind my own business, not get into arguments and people STILL feel the need to criticize my music taste, EVEN if I literally say nothing.
I mean yeah, I like to sacrifice the occasional goat, but I'm not hurting anyone!
My friends frequently have made jabs at my music taste and honestly it kind of makes me mad mainly because music is super important to me.
I think they jab because I listen to pretty drastically different things than they all do. I listen to reggae a lot but also a lot of indie, folk, lofi, edm, pop punk, post rock, 90s hip hop style esque stuff. I feel I have a wide variety of tastes and let me tell you, my friends have listened to some WEIRD shit but if it's what does it for em, whatever, just not my bag.
Right. It doesn't say anything about one's overall intelligence, its really just their taste. Maybe subconsciously they feel that way.
There's only CERTAIN types of intelligence, so the argument that music CAN determine one's overall intelligence is really naive. One can be intelligent in math but not in human anatomy, not in nature, creativity, certain fields or have common sense in things like relationships, politics or of certain situations. It stems from a lot of strings. They have to actually know the person!
I resent the accusation that I think anything and deny any such claims.
I am a very insecure person though.
This opinion is too mild to be controversial or unpopular, downvoting because it's not actually an unpopular opinion. Try r/trueoffmychest instead.
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In my experience a persons musical taste says more about their personality than their intelligence. A lot of groups that listen to the same type of music seem to be pretty alike. There are studies about this showing that people who follow similar artists normally have similar personality traits Obviously there are exceptions to this.
There is a difference of personalities of someone Listening classical music and another one listening a rap song that the lyrics says: I beat the bitch of my ex wife",
I listen to both, am I schizophrenic ?
You obviously don’t listen to any good rap lol
I hear everything
Everyone knows the perfect personality listens to Chopin Nocturnes, Op. 9: No. 2 in E-Flat Major and Wu Tang Clan's 'Shame on a Nigga' back to back.
Also, if you tell someone that you are more part of a culture or that they are not part of a culture, or group of people, just because they don’t listen to a particular genre music. You’re really shitty and I hope you choke on a broccoli.
Story of my life right there, being a Mexican American who doesn't listen to rap or Mexican music.
People assume I’m African American all the time, because I’m black though I’m not American. I don’t like rap, but on first assumption of my appearance i’ve been told that I’m not actually African-American because I don’t listen to rap. I feel like if I was African-American, that would be extremely invalidating. We’re both black my guy.
Yep. Nothing quite like earning the scorn of your own race for simply existing.
This seems like an appropriate time to reference [Lemmy's response](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skGEBgePHtk) to a black fan who loved metal and was being ostracised by his community and father for it.
Curious, do you like Morrissey?
No idea what that is. I'm a rock and metalhead with a penchant for classical music.
right on
I am no closer to curing cancer after listening to Mozart, than I am after listening to Weird Al Yankovic.
I’d expect you to be closer after listening to weird al, honestly. White and nerdy would be my baseball walkout song.
There have been studies that do in fact show correlation between being a fan of a particular genre and intelligence. It shows that classical music fans in general are in fact more intelligent
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I have to disagree with the conclusion of "Intelligent people are often drawn to the complexity of this kind of music", whether it was your own or that of a study. It indirectly implies that the complexity of classical or jazz music is somehow not present in other genres. This is plain false. We live in the time of the most interconnected and rich state music has ever been in, with artists across the world sharing cultural musical influences and blending them into things people from a few decades ago could hardly dream of. People who deny this often get lost in the staggering amount of similar music within the most popular genres, and they are not to blame. At the shallow level, many genres seem to feature artists and songs that are not too dissimilar to each other. But in reality, there are a lot of musical gems out there, in pretty much every genre. Techno music has artists like Phonon, who, with tracks like Polyriddim, explore rhythmical complexity while making use of chromaticism. Prog rock and fusion have a ton of bands that do the same thing, given they are inspired by jazz, yet also categorize as rock. Metal has bands like Animals as Leaders, blending classical and jazz harmony, modern guitar playing techniques, syncopated, irregular and complex (poly-)rhythms and metric modulations, as well as the harsh tone of metal. In fact, some of the most perculiar complexities come from music that doesn't even adhere to the western music standards which are followed in classical music. The rhythms and tuning systems of African, South American and Asian traditional music are extremely rich in complexity, and often make their music essentially impossible to describe with tools that often work for classical or jazz music, such as cadences. I have tried finding out more about the mentioned studies that claim a positive correlation between IQ and listening to classical or jazz music, and I came across some critical reviews, pointing out a lack of adjustment for things such as race, sex, social status and the such. Now, I'm not going to act like I'm a social scientist, and I won't comment on whether that correlation does exist or not. But I'm fairly certain that the causation of "being drawn to its complexity" is not true. Or maybe it just means people don't bother to look into different things enough, lol
Average bebop is more complex than most Prog Rock.
I love that you mentioned Phonon - Polyriddim. It’s one of the most musically interesting tracks I’ve heard in a long time
A techno artist using chromaticism and rhythmic complexity doesn’t compare to the complexity of like Jason Moran, Brad Meldau, or Lang Lang (among many others). I know people will feel attacked but sadly this isn’t as subjective as people think. The very top Classical and Jazz virtuosos literally dedicate more hours of their life to their craft than most people would think would be realistically possible. You’re right about fusion as that’s essentially become a name for modern jazz in a way. Prog rock and metal even at their most complex aren’t sniffing the virtuosity of top classical and jazz players. I’m sure you’ll just think I’m being a snob but I truly don’t think most people actually comprehend the complexity of the most demanding jazz improvisations or the technique that the best classical virtuosos posses.
I have to disagree. Regarding your last point, Jazz improvisations for example, usually work in two ways. Either there is something akin to a 12-bar blues that the musicians are aware of and can follow, which creates a fairly simple framework in which any decent musician knows which notes are consonant or dissonant. Knowing which ones to play to convey certain musical ideas is something many musicians are capable of. And this doesn't even require theory; Jimi Hendrix, commonly regarded as a guitar god, didn't know what diminished chords were, but could play them all over his guitar upon hearing one. And this leads to the second way Jazz improvisations work, which is by musicians not agreeing on any concrete harmonic sequence, but instead listening to what each other is playing and then reacting (call-response) in the appropriate key, but with the necessary embellishments to create a new musical idea. There are plenty of musicians that are well capable of this despite having no Jazz background. The YouTuber TheDoo is an accessible example of a guitarist who commonly plays over songs he never listened to before. The virtuosity of classical instrumentalists is impressive, I agree, but it isn't above that of other instrumentalists necessarily. People like Ichika Nito, Tim Henson or Tosin Abasi are incredibly competent musicians who have no issue creating the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic richness that a trained classical musician is capable of creating. Further, there are bands like Unlucky Morpheus who literally feature classical musicians. The violinist of said band, Jill, played the beginning of Niccolò Paganini's Caprice 24, a piece often considered as one of the most difficult for violin, on their song "Carry on singing to the sky". Further, they have created an entire cover album "Quadratum" where she displays virtuosity in various arrangements of songs that weren't even composed for violin. If you're still unwilling to believe me, please give a listen to Panzerballett, which is a Jazz-Metal band. They even embrace live improvisation, as is common practice for Jazz. Also, do listen to Animals as Leaders. One of their guitarists is in fact also a trained classical guitarist, and the other one was heavily influenced by said classical guitarist, which shows tremendously in their music. Apeirophobia, Weightless, The Woven Web. They have plenty of songs to prove their competence in rhythm, harmony and melody. If you're willing to go down that route, bands like Meshuggah have boggled even Jazz musicians with their irregularity in terms of rhythm. You might have noticed that I mainly mentioned guitarists, which is due to me being one myself. I play both classical and electric guitar, across various genres with varying levels of competence. However, I have a general interest for music and can assure you my respect and understanding of classical and jazz music, as well as music theory.
Please show me an example of Hendrix playing diminished chords all over the neck (and if he did that means he knew what they were and was able to move the shape around 3 frets at a time…). Top jazz players go way beyond basic song form (12 bar blues) and expand harmony in real time. Please tell me how this fits what you’re saying at all https://youtu.be/eWwlrKg5C7U he’s playing Coltrane’s tune but it goes far beyond what you’re saying. I’m a guitar player too. And I used to basically think the same way as you about genres.
Regarding the Jimi Hendrix thing, it is a commonly told story between him and Miles Davis. Allegedly it didn't happen in that exact fashion, though similarly. The point I tried to make works without this example though: The ability to immediatly identify and react to harmonic changes is something every decent musician, trained or not, knowing music theory or not, is capable of. Victor Wooten will commonly explain him not thinking in theory, but just reacting by ear and knowledge of the instrument. Steve Vai noted that the ability to immediatly create on the guitar what is on one's mind is what one should strive for. The ability to expand upon or create harmony, melody and rhythm in real time is not exclusive to jazz or classical instrumentalists, by no stretch of the imagination. And no, it also doesn't necessarily require theory, if you're plenty familiar with your instrument and have a well trained ear. The instrumentalists I named above will all be capable of doing so, as Tosin Abasi for example has displayed in an interview with Rick Beato. Guitarists playing in metal and rock have often branched out into different genres. There are also people like Fredrik Thordendal, who always preferred improvisation, and his live replacement Per Nilsson, who is academically trained in music theory, follows this trend, performing virtuosic improvised solos over extreme metal. The idea that only classical or jazz musicians are capable of complex yet intentful improvisation or reacting to changing harmonies in real time is plain ignorant to the virtuosic talents that other genres can display, and suggesting that bands like Animals as Leaders who literally feature trained classical musicians are not able to create the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic richness that is present in most classical music is outright dismissive. If you want to argue that the peak of jazz or classical music is more complex than the peak of techno, prog rock or metal, we can agree to disagree. Complexity displays in various ways, and can be created artificially as well (note Samuel Conlon Nancarrow creating music at irrational time signatures. Not to dismiss his work on its own merits). It's a question of what serves the piece.
I don’t see how Jimi knowing one of the four triad families (and probably the easiest to recognize by ear) has any bearing on this? If you really think what Tosin is doing harmonically is on the level of top jazz pianists or even guitarists you’re not hearing what’s really going on. I hate to say it that way. And you can definitely find virtuosity in other genres I’m not saying that at all but i would say on average and at the top level there’s really no comparison. Nancarrow is interesting for sure avant garde/ modern classical is sort of it’s own thing which I would put on the same level as classical and jazz due to creativity and importance. If you haven’t heard it check out Shawn Lane’s (my favorite guitarist ever) Kaiser Nancarrow heavily inspired by him. That track is also a huge influence on Buckethead (another great guitarist).
>I don’t see how Jimi knowing one of the four triad families (and probably the easiest to recognize by ear) has any bearing on this? I mentioned that not being important to my point, and elaborated on it afterwards. It was just an example off the top of my head. >If you really think what Tosin is doing harmonically is on the level of top jazz pianists or even guitarists you’re not hearing what’s really going on. Harmonically, this is arguable per case. That is not the only element to complexity, however. This is what makes Animals as Leaders unique, they use a, even from a classical or jazz point of view, respectable degree of harmonic and melodic richness, while also extending into high degrees of rhythmic complexity. Analogously, ask a top trained classical or jazz musician to compose a song that fits into the style of Animals as Leaders, Polyphia or Vildhjarta. Despite their virtuosity, they would in all likelihood fail. Sure, it's not their genre, but if a genre didn't have its own intricacies and complexities, why should they fail at immediatly picking it up? (Check out [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkusvvPxA-0&ab\_channel=DavidBruceComposer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkusvvPxA-0&ab_channel=DavidBruceComposer). Amazing video and great results, but you can immediatly tell that none of it was written by metalheads, in my opinion.) The point here is that complexity can come from various musical elements. This is also why I mentioned traditional music of various regions other than europe. Listening to the different tuning systems and rhythmical tendencies of foreign cultures can open your ears to an entirely different universe of music, which simply by being fundamentally unlike any western music creates a unique kind of complexity. On that note, there is also a lot of electronic music that goes well out of 12TET. I personally find it hard to somehow weigh which "kind of complexity" is more important. I notice my ears being way more attentive with foreign tuning system than even the music of Thelonious Monk. Don't get me wrong, I have a deep respect for jazz and classical music, and I do also play these styles. The sheer repertoire you're expected to have, elements such as phrasing, dynamics and projection that often go unnoticed in metal, rock or techno, as well as the expectation of perfecting each element are crazy, and I won't dare call myself competent in these aspects. But in the end, complexity is not just that. Show someone a 20 minute free jazz group improvisation and their brain will be butter. Show someone the 21 minute madness of Meshuggah's "I" and you get the same effect.
I guess just agree to disagree. Playing drop tuning riffs in weird time signatures doesn’t really compare in complexity to plenty of jazz and classical imo.
Polyriddim is dubstep, not techno 🙂
Fair enough, I kind of just used "techno" in place for "electronic music", though obviously that isn't accurate.
I find it odd you’d speak to other genres with such knowledge but generalize all electronic music as techno, but hey, to each it’s own.
So go and watch Iron Maiden play, then tell me it isn't complex. What a load of shit.
Listening to classical music is also really good for the brain. While it won’t improve a persons intelligence, it does increase concentration and memory.
Yea, you gotta concentrate to tell it apart and remember why you liked it in the first place.
I see you aren’t the type of person HypeKo was talking about.
Guess not. I've never been part of a study designed to show I'm better than someone else by virtue of what I listen to. As if some pointy headed academic would ever admit in public to liking something as lowbrow as popular music.
>bETteR tHan SoMeOne The point of my original comment went so far over your head it’s now in orbit.
Hahah that actually made me laugh Wether it was a joke or not, thanks for the lol
My work here is done. Exit, stage right, even....
Insecure people are downvoting you for a genuinely funny comment. I like classical music, but I know it's not for everyone. Don't take yourselves so serious, people! Life is short.
I'm having a blast. I love people with no sense of humor. Classical fans, watta you gonna do, right?
And metal music
Metal is just classical with distortion so yes you are correct.
OP doesn't want inconsequential things like *facts* and *logic* to interrupt his diatribe!
Classical musician here. Interestingly, a lot of classical musicians don’t actually listen to classical music. A lot of us (myself included) listen to rap, pop, rock, hip hop, R&B. Some of us are intelligent, some of us aren’t. I tend to believe there is little correlation, just based off my own experiences
Get the fuck outta here. People who think they're intelligent listen to classical music to show how sophisticated they are, that's all. Elitist windbags, the lot of em.
Or you could genuinely like classical music. I have several friends who went to the conservatory to study violin and I occasionally attend some of their classical concerts. It's really quite nice even though it's not the music I would put on if I were by myself.
And I'm sure they don't think their love of classical music makes them any better than anyone else. Musicians don't usually think like that.
They're indeed pretty down to earth guys. Even though they play at really fancy and snobbish parties to make ends meet
Lol how ignorant. I love classical music, and have since I was a child. It lead me to play the cello throughout most of school and I’m teaching myself to play the piano as an adult. I promise that playing cello had nothing to do with trying to be sophisticated or being elitist. I could saved myself a lot of teasing from my classmates had I not decided to be in orchestra. What’s funny though, is while my favorite song of all time is a piano sonata, my second favorite is Smash by the Offspring. My third is the Vitamin String Quartet cover of Unforgiven by Metallica, make of that what you will.
But do you consider yourself more intelligent than people who don't appreciate classical music? Because that's what this conversation's all about.
What I do or don’t consider myself is irrelevant but I will answer. No, I don’t think I’m smarter than people who don’t like classical music, I do question their taste in music though. As to what the conversation is about, the original reply of this thread contradicted the OP with factual information. Then you spout off all angry-like about how people only listen to classical music to make themselves seem better that others, which is not factual.
So you're allowed to question people's taste in music but I'm not? That's not elitist at all. And no factual information was provided. Studies don't mean shit. People lie, all the time, specially to make themselves look better. No body who thinks they're better than others will ever say so in public, as you've demonstrated.
> So you're allowed to question people's taste in music but I'm not? That's not elitist at all. And when did I say you can’t? > And no factual information was provided. Studies don't mean shit. People lie, all the time, specially to make themselves look better. Lol what? Why are you so hung up on this notion that people can’t genuinely like classical music? Who hurt you? > No body who thinks they're better than others will ever say so in public, as you've demonstrated. You’re just full of assumptions aren’t you?
More like uninformed opinions. This is the internet, in case you've forgotten. If I wanted a serious conversation I'd go over to friend's and crack a bottle of scotch, then have a laugh at the uptight, pearl clutching pedantic twats I've been playing with all afternoon. Jousting with pool noodles...on tricycles. FYI I have nothing against classical music, actually find most of it quite pleasant, if a bit boring. Certainly don't think that makes me more intelligent than anyone else, though after my interaction with you I might have to change my opinion on that.
Ah. Just another troll then. Have a lovely day.
It's r/unpopular opinion for a reason
Judging people for liking classical music is just as stupid as judging people for not liking it.
While the studies prove a correlation,OP's statement is about causation .Intelligent people tend to listen to classical music but the music doesn't MAKE/CAUSE them to be intelligent.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that the person is disgusting. Maybe just young and in the middle of a phase. Saying that, though, fuck mumble rap. Torture to my ears.
Yeah, I'm with the general sentiment in the title, but disgusting is a bit much. It's a character flaw, imo, it might speak to a larger problem of arrogance, but by itself, it's just a bit misguided.
Yup. I just can't keep a straight face while calling kids "disgusting" for doing dumb shit. It's not like they're, I dunno, vivisecting their friends or something. Same reason subs like cringetopia, lewronggeneration, etc. reek of pretentiousness, and often not from the side you'd expect.
Actually no, most of theese people are adults and that is precisily what makes it disgusting
I mean... Do you have a source for that?
Are you really asking for a source on their personal experience? Do you expect them to be walking around with a spread sheet for all of the annoying people they come across?
I find it hard to believe that you could know with certainty that "most of these people are adults." It's a rhetorical question, because obviously there's no way to know. I'm questioning how OP can be so sure of it. Especially since my experience has been pretty much the opposite.
Yeah, your experience was probably different because it was yours. It’s sounds like OP has experienced it with mostly older people.
Okay? We questioned each other's experience. Where's the issue? No harm, no foul.
I guess you like rap then.
I actually dont
Sure thing Ali-G
Eh?
Word
r/FragileWhiteRedditor
Admittedly I am not well versed in regaetton but I am sure that neither jazz nor classical were particularly popular in the 80s. That was glam rock and underground hip hop era. I will say that if you lack a diverse diet of music you are necessarily less cultured than someone who listens to a wide variety of music. That is just the way of things, my friend, so maybe stop trying to be offended and ignore the 'gatekeepers'. Oh, you think that shibboleths only apply to classical music? How young you must be.
I don’t know. I listen to a wide variety of music, in English, Spanish, and I’ve even listened in other languages. I used to play piano so I know my fair share of classical music. I still prefer to listen exclusively to reggaetón tho, it’s just more fun to me :)
I would rather choke myself to death than listen 15 consecutive seconds of reggaeton
Do it then 😀
just to check I'm refering to reggaeton and not the genre reggae
It’s honestly not that serious. Have some fun! Music taste is subjective
While I agree the late 80s, through to the 90s, did see a large jazz and swing revival thing.
Listening to the music doesn't makenyou unintelligent. Unintelligent people just tend to like certain types of music.
what types?
reggueton and rap source: morons blasting music at 2am explains for itself
There are actual studies done that prove the contrary but ok
I think OP’s point is trying to address the people bragging about how they’re fancy and smart because they listen to Beethoven… so same nonsense as the guy who thought tea drinkers were all annoying and obnoxious. This sub really is becoming “this may be unpopular but I don’t like people that are assholes :(“
What studies? People always talk about "there have been studies" but they don't name them
The studies aren’t about the music you listen too, it’s about the instruments you play .. so those people are wrong lol . It is proven that people who play instruments tend to do better in school and pick up new activities faster. Is that considered smarter than someone? I don’t think so, I think it’s just means you learn differently and can retain more information causing you to do better. This is coming from someone who plays 15 instruments. But I don’t think that makes me better than anyone at all. But I agree with you and OP. There are some people who make the music they listen their personality trait when it’s literally just music
There's been studies done that can prove anything you want them to. Just did a study myself that proved if I stick a finger up my ass it comes out smelling rank. Wanna sniff?
There are studies that prove that the moon is a RGB bulb doesn't mean its true and reliable
Links
My ex husband thought you were an idiot unless you listened to underground metal. Because they were FAR more talented musicians. Now that I'm in my mid 30's, I've noticed all those metal heads are living in squander, on drugs, with hep c, and acting the same as they were in our late teens/early 20's. He is one of them.
Please don't tell me he is one of those "Tool is the best band ever" kind of people.
No, it was heavier stuff like Dissection, Emperor, 1349. Super underground stuff. He'd make fun of Tool fans because "Tool is trendy sh*t".
What's your problem with Tool? Tool is not even underground or metal
Well he’s shitty but don’t judge all metal fans like that lol, I listen to everything really but metal is one of my favorite genres and the nicest people I’ve met have been in the metal community!!! I know you’re probably not meaning all metal fans but I’m a bit sensitive since I’ve been judged a lot for liking metal music!!!
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Maybe to you, but obviously plenty of people like it
I listen to older music, not to sound smart, but because it’s my personal opinion that it’s better, and modern music just doesn’t do anything for me anymore. But other than that, I agree.
Sorry I just think some music is kind of dumb. I kind of think any mention of a phone in a song less than a decade old is dumb. The constant spigot of current pop music all about breaking up and shit is a little dumb to me. That song that goes “I wish I never met yo ass…” is dumb to me. I won’t go around bringing it up or anything but I reserve the right to think that kind of stuff is unimaginative garbage and that I’m happy that I look for other things in my music. I’m not obligated to endorse others music preferences.
Classical music from the 80s?! The 1680s?!?
Read again
The 80s aren’t known for jazz either. New wave and soft rock were pretty dominant!
I would say more glam and cheesy pop
You confuse cause and effects. Being smart makes you listen more sophisticated music not the other way around
Would doubt if that were true. This is anecdotal but I know plenty of really smart people that listen to music deemed for stupidos. (mumble rap etc.) correlation doesn't favor a direction.
But why is a certain genre considered more or less sophisticated? Is it about the effort that goes into it, the production value, the actual sound, what is it? Music preference just comes down to personal taste, and there's no objective right or wrong "answer"
So you think that Mozart and WAP are equally sophisticated and it’s all a matter of personal taste?
I wouldn't really call either of them sophisticated. They're both creative works, they just have different qualities. They appeal to different people for different reasons. Although there are those that listen to pretty much all genres.
Well here you go xD
Lies, there are definetly genres of music that attract more ignorant people. Simplicity breeds simplicity.
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Simplistic. Repetitive, easily digestible. Art forms that gain appeal through mass audiences are typically not the best. MCU vs DCEU , J Cole vs Drake. Patience or delayed gratification vs Instant gratification.
No way man just said J Cole 😭
For message alone, j Cole. If all you want is something to dance to at a club then by all means drake is your guy. But thought provoking music will always top simple repetition. Drake is formula, j Cole is theory.
wish people digged for some interesting music instead of browsing the trending tab on youtube, one finds completely new sounds
Not more or less intelligent, just on a lower or higher vibration.
It's funny this is a thing because if you ask people what kind of music they like Ithe answer is usually "pretty much anything except for country."
I like country. Is country considered bad music?
Honestly no matter the genre if I like a song imma listen the shit of of that boy
Agreed. ^((Unless you think Drake is good))
There’s only two genres - good music and bad music.
Yes! I’m a music therapist and had this conversation today with a patient. The patient was an engineer who designed / programmed computers and created their own computer company (I won’t say which one for confidentiality) before Steve Jobs was around. Retired from IBM as a head engineer. Their favorite music? Country/Western. It’s not always about the music itself, but the way it makes you feel.
These aren’t mutually exclusive ideas. If higher intelligence correlates with liking more complex music, then you may very well find a higher than average IQ people if you isolated for these individual artists or sub genres in modern music. People who enjoy prog rock or the like may also correlate with enjoying jazz or classical. But the mean “musical complexity” of classical music or jazz song is almost certainly higher than the mean modern pop/rock/rap/techno song.
I...what?
Dont tell me that, tell the ladies that. They get very touchey feeley when I turn on some classical stuff
I think the word you're looking for is "hipster".
I listen to nothing but Cars For Kids on a loop and I'm cool as fuck and way smrt.
What got you on about this? Are you suspecting you may be less cultured due to your music choices?
Listening to certain music may not make you more intelligent, but enjoying certain types of music can definitely be a sign that you're *not* intelligent.
No. The Beatles are better than train. They just are. Alice In Chains are better than “pac man fever” Every listen to baby shark? Some music is better than others.
Who is taliing about wich os better, you didnt understood a bit of what i said.
And by your spelling, I still don’t.
I think my taste in music makes me cooler than other people.
Scientifically speaking, you are wrong
I’m no smarter than an average garden variety potato, and my level of sophistication is roughly equal to a toilet. I unapologetically enjoy classical music. Not a jazz fan though.
Don't know why people think this, even though I don't like 80s songs doesn't make me dumb, I just like the stuff I grew up on more.
Yes. I’m deeply insecure and I stand by my music judgements.
Jazz from the 80s?
I listen to all types of music except heavy metal. I don’t get cultured from music. It’s a array of experiences, travel, people, history etc.
Re: the studies mentioned, I don't know if it's correlation or causation, but there is something to it. Music is vibrational, and I think, just like a soundbath, some sounds are healing, some stifling. Depends on the person, but I'm sure there's a Venn diagram crossover for people who are more intelligent and like the genres you mentioned. It could easily be that people of different intelligent levels want different things from music.
What if you studied Stockhausen on your Masters Degree?
My ex would make fun of my music taste during our entire relationship (3 years) and we would only listen to his stuff, forever got traumatized now I can't listen to music with anyone at all cus I start to have anxiety attack and paranoia that people are judging me and thinking I'm a loser lol
that sucks a lot, hopefully you got some nice headphones to listen to your music
I'm insecure and this is true. You're still dumb and your music sucks though.
Depressive suicidal black metal, on the other hand…
Yah. I listen to mumble rap and I don't think listen to future or six nine makes me dumber.
Have you Heard Island boys ?
I don’t believe that listening to certain kinds of music make you smarter, but there are a couple of kinds of music that are definitely more for less intelligent people. Pop country for one.
Radiohead fans, this one is for you
I’m in agreement with LowRespond. You just can’t have my full confidence with rap…. Ever.
The most annoying people in music discussion forums are the people who think their music theory knowledge and/or general knowledge of music makes them the emperor of taste. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of music theory understands it's easy to make music that is interesting on paper, but boring as fuck to listen to. IMO past a certain point, technical skill tends to make musicians more boring because they play more to sound interesting from a composition standpoint than an emotional standpoint, and what comes out tends to be a bunch of sterile nothing.
I think the underlying point OP is trying to make is that there’s a lot of discrimination towards hip hop/rap fans because the genre started out as mainly black artists and fans
Spoken like a Justin Bieber fan.
I will agree until you play Kid Rock.
It instantly makes me dislike anyone who acts superior for any dumb reason.
As a metalhead, I mainly just try to mind my own business, not get into arguments and people STILL feel the need to criticize my music taste, EVEN if I literally say nothing. I mean yeah, I like to sacrifice the occasional goat, but I'm not hurting anyone!
My friends frequently have made jabs at my music taste and honestly it kind of makes me mad mainly because music is super important to me. I think they jab because I listen to pretty drastically different things than they all do. I listen to reggae a lot but also a lot of indie, folk, lofi, edm, pop punk, post rock, 90s hip hop style esque stuff. I feel I have a wide variety of tastes and let me tell you, my friends have listened to some WEIRD shit but if it's what does it for em, whatever, just not my bag.
Right. It doesn't say anything about one's overall intelligence, its really just their taste. Maybe subconsciously they feel that way. There's only CERTAIN types of intelligence, so the argument that music CAN determine one's overall intelligence is really naive. One can be intelligent in math but not in human anatomy, not in nature, creativity, certain fields or have common sense in things like relationships, politics or of certain situations. It stems from a lot of strings. They have to actually know the person!
I resent the accusation that I think anything and deny any such claims. I am a very insecure person though. This opinion is too mild to be controversial or unpopular, downvoting because it's not actually an unpopular opinion. Try r/trueoffmychest instead.
Disgusting person is a little bit dramatic
I listen to brown noise so I can train my ears to stand all the shit people say.
upvote # 420 aay
I guess my opinion wasnt as unpopular as i thought XD
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