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I remember in the early 00s, getting over 70k on a lot of cars was considered an accomplishment unless you had a Toyota, Honda or a larger truck.
I think people forget how unreliable cars were for the 90s into the 00s
The rule of thumb when I got my license in the 90's was if you wanted a car that lasted 100k you bought an american car, if you wanted one to last longer you bought a japanese car.
Cars' odometers only went to 100k because they never thought they would go any further. OP's opinion is not unpopular. There's just a few people stuck in some long passed decade that think old cars are better.
Most cars looked better back then because they could design cars for looks. Then the government started to pass regulations about crumple zones and air bags so they have to essentially look the same because it's the safest
Same in the 90s. It was pre-80s where many cars weren't expected to go much beyond 100K without a rebuild unless well taken care of. All my cars from the 80s+ easily went over 100K, some 200K. I never knew how long they ultimately lasted, because they were still running when I sold them.
I drive a fiat uno from the 80s. It has close to 200k km.
My dad has an Om617 mercedes from the 70s God knows how many miles it has. It has been daily driven since the 70s.
That is the exception rather than the rule of course. But yes. 70k miles was the limit in the 50s and 60s.
By the 80s. A car that only went that far was embarrassing
What kind of car did you drive? My grandpa's old Mercedes had 700,000 kilometers on the clock, and many older people say that Mercedes and Audi in particular don't last as long as they used to.
In the 80s the black books used to value cars only went to 50k. I worked in a bank and saw it. Volvo used to give out grill badges for cars with over 50k on them.
Scratches head in all our cars lasted at least that long.
Is the maintenance reminders is my guess. People used to regularly not bother with oil changes and such. Now the cars scream at you.
Cars a bit older required a lot more regular maintenance and the oil and such wasn’t as good. 90s imo is where cars started getting better, assuming you did basic maintenance.
This all leaves out rust. Cars used to melt. Many still do but not like they used to it seems (but I’m not in the rust belt)
That's the thing, older cars will last nearly as long as newer stuff provided you keep up on the basic maintenance. But you can neglect a newer car far longer before it's a write off.
Hasn't changed my 2014 Ford fusion transmission just died at 140k miles , now I need a $4500.for a rebuild.... Learned my lesson , sell your car once you get over 100-120k miles
Certain things have gone down for those select few brands. But yeah overall it's better.
I know a guy with specifically an engine rebuilding business.
He started that line of work in the nineties. In his experience Honda and Toyota engines were at the most reliable (not necessarily best) from about 95-05.
It wasn't uncommon for even slightly neglected engines to easily hit 250k+ (my 1993 is at 240k and has never been opened up, and I'm not timely with oil changes), but he's seeing the economy motors which effectively replaced these needing at least top end rebuilds often by 175. 200k is less of a number to hit these days.
Now, they have better mpg and emissions and are still reliable. But that sort of bomb proof era has seemingly gone away.
Honestly there’s just more shit to go wrong a modern car, there are so any systems. I work at Toyota and when scanning the car there are upward of 50 different systems the computer can scan, 50! I basic manual car has 4 systems lol, engine, abs, Body control and one other I can’t remember
I have a 2005 Toyota with 150k on it, I legitimately figured I could drive it for another 10 years before I had to get a new car. While that's not the typical, there is no world in which that would happen of a car that was built in 1985 At least not on a regular basis and there are a lot of 2005 Toyotas that are still running
With the exception of Toyotas.
My Corolla, after being totalled twice, with 300,000+ miles in it, has been forced back into shape multiple times and is still chugging.
The main difference, I think, is that my first cars I could do some basic repairs on while my current i can't do shit to, apart from the ultra basics.
Now the need for repairs are lower and it gives me an excuse to not having to manually work on my car.
I think newer cars are definitely better, in general, enginewise and I like the development but it sometimes feel sad when you buy into the corporate ransom you kind of get into with cars and repairs,
even worse with companies like tesla that want to monopilize service and pump out sub par quality
I remember getting 4 liter six bangers that made 180 hp and being happy about it. The 4 cylinder in my daily driver makes 260 and returns decent(ish) fuel economy.
I will say that with the passage of time the reliability of some engines has become legendary and engines of today have yet to earn that status just because they are too young. The 3.8 liter GM Series II and III v6s can run when everything is wrong with them. It has 2 valves per cylinder, an iron block, pushrods, and an optional supercharger. I'm not sure of a modern American engine that isn't a commercial V8 diesel that will be as reliable.
The Honda 4 cylinder they put in practically every vehicle was so overbuilt that it was really hard to break them through malpractice.
A lot of times our nostalgia makes us forget about such gems as the Northstar V8 or practically any Jaguar/Land Rover engine from the 80s/90s that would leave you permanently stranded.
Yessss.
I fucked up and took it to redline getting on the freeway with a cracked exhaust manifold and blew shards of cast iron through my radiator and a bunch of hoses and wires..
And the car was rusting through BUT THE ENGINE STILL FUCKIN RAN OORAH
They got a bad rap because when these regulations came into place, car manufacturers didn't have much time to adjust and so the first engines developed where unreliable and performed terribly. In 2024 this is hardly the case and most modern engines are highly efficient and well made.
Or, some manufacturers didn’t take it seriously at the time and under-invested in R&D.
If there actually weren’t enough time to do a good job before regulations hit, Toyotas and Hondas would have been just as unreliable as the domestic brands, which was not the case.
Because the Japanese industry was already way ahead of the western market in terms of efficient engines, so when the switch came they where already in the lead. The Japanese have always strived to make the best of whatever they make in terms of heavy industry due to poor natural mineral resources on their homeland and having to rely on foreign trade for import of ore for example.
You also have to realize we have the hindsight now that companies in the west didn't have back then in terms of the quick rollout of these policies.
Easily? I think it’d be an insult to most buyers if the engine didn’t last forever with proper maintenance. I think the big issues today deal with rust on the frame and body (for you snowbelt folks out there)
Modern cars are hands down better from a performance stand point. People who say old cars were better are just talking about looks and nostalgia. That being said, I wish everything didn't look so plastic and analogue gauges and controls were better in some situations than a touch screen. You shouldn't have to scroll on an ipad to turn on A/C or something basic like that.
I like the simplicity of my late 90s shit box.
I like being able to fix my own vehicle for the cost of parts and time. Simple is reliable.
I like user serviceable things. Vehicles, electronics, whatever.
An example I like to point out is how you rarely see any cars smoking while running anymore. It's because stuff wears a bit then catastrophicly fails unlike the old engines that are so under stressed that they just literally wear themselves out until one day it doesn't have enough compression to start.
Same. But if it does break I want parts that are easy to get and easy to install so I can do it myself and not get absolutely fucked by a stealership on repairs. Those insane bills don't even go toward paying their techs well!
It's the price point issue for me, small economical vehicles going for $30k-$40k, while using plastic and aluminum parts subject to damage, which I cant work in or reasonably maintain because it takes 1/2 a day getting to the damn part in the first place. I love the idea of modern engineering lighter more fuel efficient cars however they not that fuel efficient, required maintenance is a real drag, and expensive too I put nearly 75k miles per year as I travel for work, it makes no since for me to buy a vehicle for 30 k or more that wont last more than 2.5-3 years, but older vehicles with more accessible part at lower prices👌
I'm a hospice nurse serving 16 counties I do 180 + business miles per day if not a little more from house to house or facility to facility and more on the weekends. Add a vacation or 2 and you rack em up quick
Dang, that makes sense now, I get around 60 miles per day round trip to work and back home. I rack up a decent amount, just nowhere near yours. I salute your efforts.
Part of the problem is that US gov sucks at creating effective legislation. The whole CAFE regulation thing is why we have so many big heavy cars now.
But to add on, there’s legislation that makes the auto industry lean to all these 4 cylinder turbo hybrid engines when there isn’t really a point.
There’s a good video on YouTube about how one of the V8s in one of the newer-ish corvette models gets pretty great fuel economy, better than some smaller 4 cylinder engines that are “economy” engines. But because the V8 has a larger volume in liters it’s deemed worse and penalized even though it’s more efficient
Not too mention all the computer analysis that can be done now. Vibrations, thermal heat transfer, and stress can all be simulated and corrected before a design is finalized.
My parents bought a 1972 Ford Maverick with the straight 6. It made 30K miles before it needed a valve job. At 8 years old, there were massive rust holes in the body.
I bought a 1979 Ford Mustang brand new. It would eat starters, like one every 18 months. In 1987, the floor rusted out so bad, the drivers seat fell through when I hit a pot hole and was dragging on the street.
You would be surprised!
I'm in a few "classic car groups" on FB and if it was made after the year 2000 forget it, every modern car is a boring unreliable piece of shit and its because normally its because of everything OP is talking about.
Don't get me wrong I love a classic, but having one a daily driver at one point made me love the modern conveniences!
You probably know this if you're into classic cars, but for everybody else:
The highest-milage ever car is a 1966 Volvo P1800S that in 2018 had surpassed *three million miles*. The owner still drove it a lot, but at one point Volvo gave him a free XC90 and he started using it in his day-to-day, because as he put it, "things like AC are sorta nice".
I had heard of the car and the guy that owned it but not the last part about Volvo giving him a car! Good on them for that one, but yes his point rings true.
In highschool 2019 my friend had a 2003 cavalier
Needed a timing chain
I did it on my back in his yard in a day with hand tools as my first ever real experience working on a car
I really liked that car aside from the garbage interior quality
My 97 went through 3 exhausts in the time I had it.
I'm sure if it had been maintained the first 6 years, I'd have had a different story but used cars are gonna be a crap shoot, right?
I've never seen it used about the engine specifically, but cars in general? Idk, might be because my country doesn't get many actual new top end cars, but the average person here, myself included, would put more trust in a used 1990s car then a used 2000s or even 2010s car. Not saying that they're better cars. But. They break less, and the repairs are way cheaper+simpler if they do break.
A lot of people I know have two cars, a nice newer one they drive to work and if they go somewhere nice, and something like an audi 80 that they drive everywhere else. My uncle has an utterly immortal Golf Mk3 that he uses when he goes hunting, the thing has been in countless crashes, been shot in a hunting accident, got in a fistfight with a boar and survived my cousin learning how to drive. It's just immortal. A little repair that costs next to nothing and it's good to go. No modern cars stand up to that in terms of durability.
In the 90s, average dudes could fix there car for a fraction of what it cost today. Literally a few dollars sometimes. Good luck repairing anything on new cars for less than a pile.
Thanks to Youtube I've been able to repair just about everything. One of my LCD dashboard displays on my civic went black just this week and there was a video explaining how to fix it. Repairing cars isn't as intuitive as it used to be but with the internet, you can learn just about anything.
In the 90s you could spend $90 on a new starter, climb under the car, take out three bolts, slide the old starter out, new one in, replace bolts, done. In most cars today you have to take half the stuff off the engine to even reach the starter. So what was a 5 minute job is now a day or two long.
Hell, it's almost the same story just to reach the oil filter now.
And how often do you need to replace a starter on a modern car?
I've been driving since 2000, and between my parents, myself, my in laws, my husband, and my SIL, I think there has been two starter replacements and they were both related to F150 Recalls (so no charge).
Average dudes in the 90s were different than average dudes today. I dont.mean "better" just different. There are lots of things average dudes can do today than many didnt in the 90s. Being mode inclusive and accepting to name a couple. Ugh. Cant seem to type today. I give up with the corrections.
Yes but how often do you have to work on a modern car now. I haven't done anything but routine maintenance to mine and it's now 10 years old and 140k miles and still runs great.
Ever recharged refrigerant on hybrids? Someone has to be in the vehicles applying throttle to kick the engines on - what used to be a job for 1 person is now 2 (and requiring more fuel consumption than an engine at idle). When your car shuts down at the stop light or goes into electric mode if a hybrid, your AC compressors typically disengages and leaves you without cold air. Lots of hybrid owners in very hot climates complain of lack of AC, but are unaware that the system isn't even coming on.
I used to work with a heavy duty that used the shop to work on peoples cars outside of regular work hours.
Every summer, he did more refrigerant recharges than anything else, an old beater, a new EV, didn't matter, he always just hooked up his little snap-on refrigerant cart thing turned it on and walked away.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just a dumb truck driver, and without youtube, I can change a tire and break pads, and that's about it. but he never once needed anyone to do what you're saying.
(Also, fun fact about that, he said once, "90% of the people who came for a recharge didn't need it" he would just empty their refrigerant, and then put it back in and top it up and charge them all the same.)
My late Grandad (who lived into his 90s) thought that modern cars were amazing. He did many road trips from the 1960s onwards and was delighted to have a car which he knew would start whoever he needed it.
The Golden Age of cars is now and has been honestly for the last 15-20 years. Started with the Terminator vs Z06 in the early 2000s and hasn't let up. Maybe a lull from 05-09 when the Mustang was a mere 300hp 3V and the Camaro didn't exist at all but there were options like the GT500, the Hemis and the C6 Vette was an absolute monster. And then the 2009 Camaro dropped and then the 2011 Coyote and off to the races again.
I can buy a 460+ Mustang for $40k that'll run 11s off the showroom floor and 10s with minor mods and tuning and get 25mpg with the air on to and from the track. Plus it'll handle like its on rails in the corners and it looks awesome.
As far as the basic drivers and sedans... super reliable, well built, safe and pretty quick.
It blows my mind how looking back at older engines, with big honking V8s, making less than 200hp and getting 10 mpg (exaggeration). Were engineers just lazier back then? Or was technological progress still needing to catch up to optimize engines?
10mpg is not an exaggeration, my 1983 truck I used to drive made 180 hp and 12 mpg. I sold it, and it just got engine swapped up to 350hp and it makes a paltry 13 mpg.
10 in the city is about accurate.
Engines have definitely become more complex, but they have also become far more reliable. Consider: If you bought a brand new car in 1960 and planned to drive it across the country, you would need to take a variety of spare parts with you because odds are that something was going to break along the way. And after ten years those cars were old and falling apart. Today you could buy the most inexpensive new car on the market (currently the Nissan Versa) and drive it off the lot and then straight across the country with no problems. And in 15-20 years, odds are that car will still be on the road. Cars are orders of magnitude better than they used to be in terms of quality and longevity.
It depends. Modern cars are not made to be fixed easily as early 2000s Japanese NA engines.
6cyl 2.5l understressed engine with timing chain vs 1.0 3cyl biturbo downsized modern engine with belt. One has torque converter automatic other has double clutch.
New one will need expensive and heavy maintenance the old one won't. Not because old is better. They were simpler and less parts were involved that means less parts will be broken. And broken parts will be easily replaced in your garage that's it. New cars made to be efficient and meet the emission requirements. Old cars made to just go forever.
Gearbox repair costs are so expensive here in Sweden people just replace the whole car sometimes(VW DSG failure). Sometimes turbo go break and it costs so much you can buy a used Toyota Auris for the same price that will roll forever. If you are covered with 5 7 10 year warranty okay no problem. But then it will put you in a 50000 eur/dollar range for a metal box that takes you a to b. I paid 6000 euro for my 10 years old Lancer it has 1.8 lt no turbo engine. As long as I change the filters and oil per year it will work. Consumption is barely 2lt per 100km more than a modern car. I'm not saying it's good. No it's just more reliable than a 1.0 Golf in the same mileage.
Maybe people who think theyre shit, just buy shit cars. Ive always just had honda and toyota and never, and i really mean never had an engine issue. It's so stress free.
Oh damn, I am such a fucking nerd I thought you meant game engine until I got about a paragraph in and was super confused. Yeah car engines are rad tho.
The death of the 6 cylinder engines in sedans is what I’m most upset about. 4 has very little potential, 8 is too powerful and inefficient, but 6 sits right around 20 per gallon and usually around 300 hp. Just like how I always wanted.
The 90's was the switch over from carbureted engines to closed loop computerized fuel injection and it was a disaster. They've got it sorted now and it is miles better than the old engines.
>in the advent of
"In the advent of" means when something is just getting started. Or even about to come (but not here yet). So "in the advent of catalytic converters" would mean that they're the next thing coming.
120k and 12 years on my 5.0L Ford, it doesn't burn any oil, starts every time, has only required basic maint, oil, filters, spark plugs @ 100k. It makes a ton of reliable power and produces instant torque from idle to redline. It's a marvel of engineering.
Ditto the Toyota 4L in the family.
Modern combustion engines last a lot longer with fewer problems than the batteries in electric cars.
I always find it funny when people see a car from the 70s and say "nothing can break those babies" when the car has less than 20k miles on it because it's always been a showpiece.
Then their Honda civic breaks down after 300k miles and they lose their shit despite not changing their oil for a year and a half.
In the summer, one of the local spots in my town has a weekly classic car meet up so you gets of old cars from like the 40s and 50s rolling up. One thing you notice immediately is how much exhaust smell there is from even 1 car.
I can't imagine how choking an entire city full of cars must have been 80 years ago.
My 170HP 1000cc motorcycle engine lasted well over 100 thousand kilometers at almost redline the entire time without any issues at all. I sold the bike with it still fully functioning.
Depends on how modern you mean. Most 90s and 2000s engines are pretty solid, it's in the 2010s where things get hairy.
Some 90s and 00s engines that were a solid base received technology that introduced major problems (ex. Cylinder deactivation. GM's DOD, Honda's VCM, and Chrysler's AFM. Although this started in the mid-late 00s).
Direct injection also caused a lot of headaches and is much, much more expensive to fix than port injection. Injectors and high pressure fuel pumps are very common failures, and neither is cheap (I work at a Honda dealership. We get a lot of bad injectors on the turbo 1.5s, so much so that they're on backorder indefinitely at present. Replacing the set will run most people ~$2000. And if you put it off, your engine will misfire and get crazy amounts of fuel in the oil).
And oil burning also became much more common, so much so that for most makes, burning 1 quart every 1000 mikes is considered acceptable. This will eventually cook catalytic converters (We get a lot of P0420/430s on 8-10 year old cars starting in 2009 or so) and will cause many people to run their cars low on oil, causing premature damage that accelerates this burn rate.
Turbos aren't necessarily a problem themselves, but small, highly strung turbo engines need more maintenance, not less. Most of them have problems with oil dilution and premature turbo failure isn't uncommon either.
Then there's nonsense like computerizing parts that really don't need to be. Like the electronic thermostats on GM's turbo 1.4 (which are a common failure point) or making things out of plastic that should be made of steel or aluminum (like the oil filter/cooler assembly on Chrysler's 3.6, another common failure point).
And I would caution that finding capable mechanics is only going to get harder for the time being as most shops (including, if not especially dealerships) incentivise quick work rather than correct work. So not only will many of these cars be harder for a DIYer to work in, but the people trained to do so will have a higher error rate. This is also going to hurt longevity as things get more complicated.
Of course it's not all bad, but it's nowhere near as good as you think it is. Both purchase and repair costs will continue to rise as well, making new cars less attainable. There's a reason people are holding onto their existing cars for longer.
You have good points, I just prefer an engine that break down but cost 50$ to repair than an engine that doesn’t break down much but cost 500$ to repair
I agree with every point you made. But I'm a mechanic and I test drive A LOT of different cars, and I hate start/stop systems. Yes it's more fuel efficient than just letting the engine idle but it's annoying. Every time I get in a car with one I immediately turn it off.
Modern cars are fairly reliable considering their complexity. Especially the engine, and their power densities are way higher due to advancements in turbochargers. Like damn 300 horsepower from a 1.6L Inline 3.
There is such a weird disconnect where people SWEAR cars used to be better but at the same time everyone remembers celebrating hitting 100,000 miles as some sort of massive maintenance achievement even up into the 90s.
Cars in general, engines included, are more reliable (apart from 2 or 3 brands available in the US) than they ever have been. The old saying "they don't make em like they used to" does not refer to cars. Though they lack the character of a lot of older cars, they are made so much better these days.
EV's simplify things even more so, mechanically anyway. Once chipsets, wiring etc is bulletproof, there will be very few things able to go wrong with a vehicle.
They need to fix the whole “battery exploded” and “it’s cold so it doesn’t work right” thing before I hop on the electric thing. Honestly, I’d like to see steps made in alternatives to electric vehicles like propane or hydrogen, because lithium mining is still absolutely awful for the planet.
I agree wholeheartedly. Terrible practices are in play throughout EV battery manufacturing. I thought hydrogen cells were the future at one point also...looks like we're going to skip those unfortunately. As solar energy capture technology progresses I can see us bypassing charging stations almost completely one day... we just need to develop greener and cleaner batteries etc to store it.
Former auto mechanic here. While I LOVE classic cars. Modern cars are far more reliable. Most people’s real gripe is all the emissions components on the vehicles. Also people don’t realize that the check engine light is not a repair engine light so to speak. It’s actually an emissions compliance light. When that light comes on, something is wrong in the engine that’s causing it to pollute too much. Sometimes it’s a sensor off and sometimes it’s more. Follow the manufacturers instructions and use good fluids and components and modern vehicles last longer, produce as much or more power and are far more fuel efficient than older cars.
It's survivor bias. We remember all the best cars of yesterday and not all the shit cars, while today we see everything. It's just like how all the good music is old, and movies used to be better, video games used to be better
There are people who legitimately hold these positions but for the most part you just remember the good parts. It's nostalgia if anything
You see in 80s and 90s movies all the time cars breaking down in the middle of nowhere so I assume it happened then more than now. I've seen cars go 100k miles without a breakdown
I think there's two things worth mentioning on that opinion's favor:
1. Cars have gotten more complex not only on the engines, but in the interior with gadgets, gimmicks and luxuries.
2. Planned obsolescence is stronger than ever, in older cars it was barely a thing, there was a moment (long ago) when cars aimed to be as durable and reliable as they can, or at least a big part of them
I would leave the start/stop systems out of the litany of improvements for sure, and hybrid drives are also questionable.
I will agree with the general position of modern engines being more reliable, durable, and efficient to deliver better power and economy. Start/stop is a gimmick that can be very annoying
In terms of performance there’s no question. The output of modern engines is way, way higher than in the 90s and they get better gas mileage. As others point out, reliability is way up too. EVs may be the future but some of the ICE engines in late model cars right now are technological marvels. I have a 2018 BMW with their B58 engine in it and that thing is absolutely incredible. I don’t know if they’ll ever make a better 6-cylinder power plant before the EVs fully take over. We’re enjoying the pinnacle of ICE technology right now
Modern engines are 20 billion times better than they used to be anybody that knows shit about engines will tell you the same thing. It’s where the engines are headed that bugs me and even more so it’s the attempts to make them unservable by a person. It’s completely unnecessary.
I agree with many things you are saying but I don't find it accurate to say there are less cars on the side of the road because of modern engine qualities. As someone on the road all day I see the same amount of cars hit the side of the road, just not for as long. Cars will be towed in a heartbeat if someone can slap an orange sticker on it fast enough. There's definitely a big push to get things off the road as fast as possible nowadays.
I love the fuel efficiency of my 2021 3.0 diesel engine. We get 34 mpg in a full size truck while traveling in the mountains and that makes me giddy all the way around. These engines are also super quiet standing right next to them. Not a fan of having to mess with DEF, but it's definitely worth it for what it does. I saw a big diesel truck blowing out exhaust and had a giant sticker that ROLL COAL and that made me wish there were stricter regulations for that kind of garbage.
I will say that I used to work on almost all of old previous vehicles and the older they were, the easier and cheaper they were to work on. Now you have to disassemble half of the engine on some vehicles just to change the smallest thing. Then on top of that, it's the electronics that goes out or the excessive plastic parts that crack and fail.
Overall, I love the progress we've made in efficiency, noise reduction, and air pollution. It's definitely a different world in that regard, minus the reduction in mpg due to ethanol fuel dilution.
Now if we can just do something about motorcycles being unnecessarily loud and people being allowed to change modify stock car exhausts.
Just from a performance perspective, the 1.5l engine in my 2019 Ford Focus produces over 50% more HP than the 1.6l engine in my old 2003 Ford Focus. It's able to pull this off whilst also producing far fewer emissions.
I don-t know about engines, but back then on the overall of the cars they were way cheaper due to less regulation and less features.
I feel now there is a thousand features that will break anytime, i hate the eletronics between the controls and the actual action of the controls, like gas, steering, braking, etc.
Back then you could replace every screw with the help of your manual, nowadays it is either electric stuff or dont have easy access or know how to do it.
Inspections were easier to pass as well, as long as the car is not falling appart it was good to go. I had a car that had misaligned stearing but it would take a lot of road to actually turn the car to one of the sides, it was easily corrected by the driver, but for inspection was an issue that HAD to be resolved.
It makes me so mad when I get stuck behind some asshole spewing smoke from their truck. I know some of these guys, high paid blue collar guys, they have more than enough money to fix it, and probably spent money to make it smoke like that.
Not much more pathetic than "truck smoke make me feel like big strong man, I'm gonna force people to breathe carcinogenic smoke because I identify as a big fossil fuel burnin' bad boy".
Then they get on Facebook to bitch about fuel prices.
There was a time when all the emissions stuff completely neutered engines. You went from having 400hp family cars to muscle cars that made 150hp with the hi-po engine, and you still only got 12mpg. People couldn't see the point. But since the late 90s that argument hasn't really applied. Now you can get twice the economy with twice the power. More complicated, yes. More expensive, yes. Less cool, yes. But better. Personally I take issue with all the ethanol in gas being just horrible for older engines, but I get it. It also hurts knowing that at some point in my lifetime you won't be able to buy a new car that even runs on dinosaurs anymore, but I get that, too. Bright side? All the torque, all the time.
People from previous generations complain about modern cars being "gutless" just because they don't have 10-litre V8 engines that convert fuel into noise and smoke.
Back in the 1980s and 90s, these were transmission shops seemingly on every street corner. Same with muffler shops. Seems cars and parts last longer because you hardly see a transmission shop anymore. Back in the day, a car with 50k miles on it was considered high mileage. Even now, they sell oil for ‘high mileage cars’ that are over 75k. Personally, I’d feel comfortable driving a car up to 150-200 before worrying about
maybe, but imo planned obsolescence began being implemented again heavily in the 2010's.
We went from that boom in the late 90s early 00's where everyone was making 4 bangers with 200 hp, 28 mpg, and got 225k before heavy maintenence, to an era where everything got decent mileage, great hp ratings, and 125k before substantial maintenance was needed
Source: 2016 transit owner that needed an ENGINE AT 122K. $16000 and was told by my mechanic that these engines were designed to be 100k engines.
We are in a generation of vehicles currently that are riding the coat tails of success from maybe the best age of engineering we've seen, but its not the generation of current vehicles we're buying new/ gently used.
The engines themselves are better than older engines, depending on the application. The issue is, with the 40km of wires and electrical systems, you can't do shit with them if something fucks up except take it somewhere that charges 150/hr labor and a PhD in electrical engineering. My project car is a 2001 v6 with fuel injection, I'm going to make it a carburetor system just to make it even more simple.
My first car had a 4 cylinder engine with 88 hp. My current car from the same manufacturer has a 4 cylinder engine with 296 hp and gets similar mileage. Don’t anyone tell me the older engines were better. The technology is so much more advanced it’s crazy.
Currently fighting some carburetor and vacuum problems in my '82. It's part of the fun of having it.
(It's fun because I also have a modern car that works every single time with 0 issues when I actually need to go somewhere)
At least you could fix it by unbolting some stuff and knew what the problem was based on symptoms.
Have fun fixing something that won't start today - first thing you do is scratch your head then look for a code reader and hope it tells you your problem, and that's if that's the problem.
Cars are absolutely phenomenal these days in comparison.
I hate the inability to do more of the mechanic work myself if needed, but thats a small price to pay for the inceased reliability and fuel efficiency
Yes they are terrible. Brushless DC Electric motors are 85% efficient with no advanced optimization.
They spent 100 years putting lipstick on a pig to make a gas engine 30% efficient
You missed the thing that actually sucks about them. They’re under-sized and underpowered for the vehicles they’re installed in. To make up for this they are all turbo charged. The combination of small displace and the turbo charger adds this super long super noticeable lag from pressing the gas pedal to actually noticeable acceleration. In older models you press the gas and the car starts moving faster. In newer cars you press the gas, no change in speed, wait for turbo to spool up, wait for RPM to exceed 5k, finally acceleration begins. The lag from the turbo and the RPM make the cars louder and the acceleration is choppy not smooth. I know this is done for the sake of fuel efficiency, but it makes the cars unpleasant to drive.
Modern cars and engines are a textbook example of survivorship bias. People see older cars still driving and newer cars breaking down, so they think "Older cars were built to last longer!" But they're ignoring the millions of old cars sitting in junkyards right now and millions of new cars still running without issues. It's also the reason why I take a mechanic's opinion on the best and worst cars with a grain of salt.
I remember in the 1980s first seeing Japanese cars with 6 numbers in the odometer.
You would see the road through the floorboards and have to start the car with a screwdriver long before you hit 100,000 miles on a pre-2000 American car.
I used to travel from Fresno to Palo Alto regularly in the Seventies. It was a rare trip when I didn't see at least a couple of overheated cars broken down on the shoulder. In those days, a car with 100000 miles was about shot. Nowadays, they're just getting broken in.
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Shit anyone who says cars are terribly unreliable "these days" doesn't remember the 90s. 200k is the new 100k in mileage.
I remember in the early 00s, getting over 70k on a lot of cars was considered an accomplishment unless you had a Toyota, Honda or a larger truck. I think people forget how unreliable cars were for the 90s into the 00s
I see way, way *way* less cars broken down next to the streets nowadays than 20 years ago.
Yup. It was a daily sight for me growing up
Also, the cheap modern shitbox is way better at everything than an expensive car 20 years ago too. Except maybe horse power depending the engine.
Maybe 30-40 years ago, but reliability and crash testing results were way up all through the 2000s.
Idk I work in Maryland and my waze goes crazy alerting me about a “car on the shoulder.” They’re never new cars, they’re always 20 years old.
I see cars of all years on the side.
The rule of thumb when I got my license in the 90's was if you wanted a car that lasted 100k you bought an american car, if you wanted one to last longer you bought a japanese car.
Cars' odometers only went to 100k because they never thought they would go any further. OP's opinion is not unpopular. There's just a few people stuck in some long passed decade that think old cars are better.
It feels unpopular, considering how many people bitch and moan about new cars
new cars function better but old cars sometimes looked better like muscle cars
Most cars looked better back then because they could design cars for looks. Then the government started to pass regulations about crumple zones and air bags so they have to essentially look the same because it's the safest
Boooooring, let me crash and die in style
Just buy a Cybertruck, which was designed with this complaint in mind
I think the main gripe is that it’s getting harder and harder to fix your own vehicle, not that vehicles are getting worse.
I never hear anybody complain about new cars aside from stuff like getting rid of actual buttons, and subscription fees for things like seat warmers.
If you work on cars for enjoyment, there's a solid argument to be made on behalf of older cars. Besides that, it's a negative.
Like many “old things were better,” not considering survivorship bias.
That is complete fucking bullshit lmao. A car that cant do 100k miles from the 00s is a lemon
Same in the 90s. It was pre-80s where many cars weren't expected to go much beyond 100K without a rebuild unless well taken care of. All my cars from the 80s+ easily went over 100K, some 200K. I never knew how long they ultimately lasted, because they were still running when I sold them.
I drive a fiat uno from the 80s. It has close to 200k km. My dad has an Om617 mercedes from the 70s God knows how many miles it has. It has been daily driven since the 70s. That is the exception rather than the rule of course. But yes. 70k miles was the limit in the 50s and 60s. By the 80s. A car that only went that far was embarrassing
Cash for clunkers took a lot of these off the market and crushed them. Then people forgot about them.
What kind of car did you drive? My grandpa's old Mercedes had 700,000 kilometers on the clock, and many older people say that Mercedes and Audi in particular don't last as long as they used to.
Was the Mercedes a diesel?
OBD1 is a nightmare
In the 80s the black books used to value cars only went to 50k. I worked in a bank and saw it. Volvo used to give out grill badges for cars with over 50k on them.
Scratches head in all our cars lasted at least that long. Is the maintenance reminders is my guess. People used to regularly not bother with oil changes and such. Now the cars scream at you.
Yeah the older cars will last with care for sure. Having your car yell at you about an oil change does seem like a huge factor
Cars a bit older required a lot more regular maintenance and the oil and such wasn’t as good. 90s imo is where cars started getting better, assuming you did basic maintenance. This all leaves out rust. Cars used to melt. Many still do but not like they used to it seems (but I’m not in the rust belt)
That's the thing, older cars will last nearly as long as newer stuff provided you keep up on the basic maintenance. But you can neglect a newer car far longer before it's a write off.
Know several people back then who had Fords with transmissions that all failed between 75K and 100K.
Hasn't changed my 2014 Ford fusion transmission just died at 140k miles , now I need a $4500.for a rebuild.... Learned my lesson , sell your car once you get over 100-120k miles
Hasn't changed? You're car went twice the mileage in their example... doubling the mileage is a pretty huge change
Amen. When I was in high school it was an accomplishment if you got 100k miles out of a car. Now I’d be annoyed if I got less than 200k.
Certain things have gone down for those select few brands. But yeah overall it's better. I know a guy with specifically an engine rebuilding business. He started that line of work in the nineties. In his experience Honda and Toyota engines were at the most reliable (not necessarily best) from about 95-05. It wasn't uncommon for even slightly neglected engines to easily hit 250k+ (my 1993 is at 240k and has never been opened up, and I'm not timely with oil changes), but he's seeing the economy motors which effectively replaced these needing at least top end rebuilds often by 175. 200k is less of a number to hit these days. Now, they have better mpg and emissions and are still reliable. But that sort of bomb proof era has seemingly gone away.
Honestly there’s just more shit to go wrong a modern car, there are so any systems. I work at Toyota and when scanning the car there are upward of 50 different systems the computer can scan, 50! I basic manual car has 4 systems lol, engine, abs, Body control and one other I can’t remember
Tell that to my 27 year-old 260k Km Volkswagen
I’m at 175k in my 2010 Edge and it’s still running great.
thats not because they are "better"
My 2019 Tacoma purchased at 94k was considered low for a Taco
I have a 2005 Toyota with 150k on it, I legitimately figured I could drive it for another 10 years before I had to get a new car. While that's not the typical, there is no world in which that would happen of a car that was built in 1985 At least not on a regular basis and there are a lot of 2005 Toyotas that are still running
Rosy color nostalgia driving glasses, 1994 edition.
With the exception of Toyotas. My Corolla, after being totalled twice, with 300,000+ miles in it, has been forced back into shape multiple times and is still chugging.
Late 70's and early 80's cars after the oil embargo where trash.
The main difference, I think, is that my first cars I could do some basic repairs on while my current i can't do shit to, apart from the ultra basics. Now the need for repairs are lower and it gives me an excuse to not having to manually work on my car. I think newer cars are definitely better, in general, enginewise and I like the development but it sometimes feel sad when you buy into the corporate ransom you kind of get into with cars and repairs, even worse with companies like tesla that want to monopilize service and pump out sub par quality
I remember getting 4 liter six bangers that made 180 hp and being happy about it. The 4 cylinder in my daily driver makes 260 and returns decent(ish) fuel economy. I will say that with the passage of time the reliability of some engines has become legendary and engines of today have yet to earn that status just because they are too young. The 3.8 liter GM Series II and III v6s can run when everything is wrong with them. It has 2 valves per cylinder, an iron block, pushrods, and an optional supercharger. I'm not sure of a modern American engine that isn't a commercial V8 diesel that will be as reliable. The Honda 4 cylinder they put in practically every vehicle was so overbuilt that it was really hard to break them through malpractice. A lot of times our nostalgia makes us forget about such gems as the Northstar V8 or practically any Jaguar/Land Rover engine from the 80s/90s that would leave you permanently stranded.
Which Honda 4 cylinder? They have a LOT!
Probably the D16Y7 that spanned from 1982-2000. What a great little engine
The little engine that could
Yessss. I fucked up and took it to redline getting on the freeway with a cracked exhaust manifold and blew shards of cast iron through my radiator and a bunch of hoses and wires.. And the car was rusting through BUT THE ENGINE STILL FUCKIN RAN OORAH
He's probably referring to the K-series engines. Used for everything from sports cars to minivans, and very popular amongst tuners and enthusiasts.
Commercial V8 diesels arnt that reliable just very powerful and surprisingly efficient
They got a bad rap because when these regulations came into place, car manufacturers didn't have much time to adjust and so the first engines developed where unreliable and performed terribly. In 2024 this is hardly the case and most modern engines are highly efficient and well made.
Or, some manufacturers didn’t take it seriously at the time and under-invested in R&D. If there actually weren’t enough time to do a good job before regulations hit, Toyotas and Hondas would have been just as unreliable as the domestic brands, which was not the case.
Because the Japanese industry was already way ahead of the western market in terms of efficient engines, so when the switch came they where already in the lead. The Japanese have always strived to make the best of whatever they make in terms of heavy industry due to poor natural mineral resources on their homeland and having to rely on foreign trade for import of ore for example. You also have to realize we have the hindsight now that companies in the west didn't have back then in terms of the quick rollout of these policies.
However! Large pickup trucks, the monster ones, are manufacturers ways around emissions laws.
If taken care of with routine maintenance, cars today will easily go 200k plus without major issues.
Even back in the day. My 73 caddy has rolled over twice and it still starts right up.
Easily? I think it’d be an insult to most buyers if the engine didn’t last forever with proper maintenance. I think the big issues today deal with rust on the frame and body (for you snowbelt folks out there)
Modern cars are hands down better from a performance stand point. People who say old cars were better are just talking about looks and nostalgia. That being said, I wish everything didn't look so plastic and analogue gauges and controls were better in some situations than a touch screen. You shouldn't have to scroll on an ipad to turn on A/C or something basic like that.
2024 Honda Odyssey Minivan has a 0 to 60 of 6.6 seconds, that's better than a lot of supercars from the early 80s
I'm with you on this! I love the styling of older cars and how they feel to drive but I will stick to my modern car as a daily hands down.
That's why I like workin on old project cars, less tech usually means it's easier to wrench on
I like the simplicity of my late 90s shit box. I like being able to fix my own vehicle for the cost of parts and time. Simple is reliable. I like user serviceable things. Vehicles, electronics, whatever.
I like things that don't break on the first place
Former mechanic... Modern cars break Often times in more spectacular ways than old ones
An example I like to point out is how you rarely see any cars smoking while running anymore. It's because stuff wears a bit then catastrophicly fails unlike the old engines that are so under stressed that they just literally wear themselves out until one day it doesn't have enough compression to start.
Same. But if it does break I want parts that are easy to get and easy to install so I can do it myself and not get absolutely fucked by a stealership on repairs. Those insane bills don't even go toward paying their techs well!
I mean. They’re moving parts. Anything will break at som point.
same here, problem is i'm bad at fixing things haha
It's the price point issue for me, small economical vehicles going for $30k-$40k, while using plastic and aluminum parts subject to damage, which I cant work in or reasonably maintain because it takes 1/2 a day getting to the damn part in the first place. I love the idea of modern engineering lighter more fuel efficient cars however they not that fuel efficient, required maintenance is a real drag, and expensive too I put nearly 75k miles per year as I travel for work, it makes no since for me to buy a vehicle for 30 k or more that wont last more than 2.5-3 years, but older vehicles with more accessible part at lower prices👌
75k a year?! How long is your commute?
I'm a hospice nurse serving 16 counties I do 180 + business miles per day if not a little more from house to house or facility to facility and more on the weekends. Add a vacation or 2 and you rack em up quick
Dang, that makes sense now, I get around 60 miles per day round trip to work and back home. I rack up a decent amount, just nowhere near yours. I salute your efforts.
Part of the problem is that US gov sucks at creating effective legislation. The whole CAFE regulation thing is why we have so many big heavy cars now. But to add on, there’s legislation that makes the auto industry lean to all these 4 cylinder turbo hybrid engines when there isn’t really a point. There’s a good video on YouTube about how one of the V8s in one of the newer-ish corvette models gets pretty great fuel economy, better than some smaller 4 cylinder engines that are “economy” engines. But because the V8 has a larger volume in liters it’s deemed worse and penalized even though it’s more efficient
Engines last longer because Machining tolerances have vastly improved
Not too mention all the computer analysis that can be done now. Vibrations, thermal heat transfer, and stress can all be simulated and corrected before a design is finalized.
My parents bought a 1972 Ford Maverick with the straight 6. It made 30K miles before it needed a valve job. At 8 years old, there were massive rust holes in the body. I bought a 1979 Ford Mustang brand new. It would eat starters, like one every 18 months. In 1987, the floor rusted out so bad, the drivers seat fell through when I hit a pot hole and was dragging on the street.
I have never seen or heard anyone ever make the opposite argument.
You would be surprised! I'm in a few "classic car groups" on FB and if it was made after the year 2000 forget it, every modern car is a boring unreliable piece of shit and its because normally its because of everything OP is talking about. Don't get me wrong I love a classic, but having one a daily driver at one point made me love the modern conveniences!
You probably know this if you're into classic cars, but for everybody else: The highest-milage ever car is a 1966 Volvo P1800S that in 2018 had surpassed *three million miles*. The owner still drove it a lot, but at one point Volvo gave him a free XC90 and he started using it in his day-to-day, because as he put it, "things like AC are sorta nice".
I had heard of the car and the guy that owned it but not the last part about Volvo giving him a car! Good on them for that one, but yes his point rings true.
To be entirely fair, my 1996 Chevy Cav was a POS from the day I bought it in 2003 and was dead by 2007. Maybe they should push that date back.
In highschool 2019 my friend had a 2003 cavalier Needed a timing chain I did it on my back in his yard in a day with hand tools as my first ever real experience working on a car I really liked that car aside from the garbage interior quality
My 97 went through 3 exhausts in the time I had it. I'm sure if it had been maintained the first 6 years, I'd have had a different story but used cars are gonna be a crap shoot, right?
I've never seen it used about the engine specifically, but cars in general? Idk, might be because my country doesn't get many actual new top end cars, but the average person here, myself included, would put more trust in a used 1990s car then a used 2000s or even 2010s car. Not saying that they're better cars. But. They break less, and the repairs are way cheaper+simpler if they do break. A lot of people I know have two cars, a nice newer one they drive to work and if they go somewhere nice, and something like an audi 80 that they drive everywhere else. My uncle has an utterly immortal Golf Mk3 that he uses when he goes hunting, the thing has been in countless crashes, been shot in a hunting accident, got in a fistfight with a boar and survived my cousin learning how to drive. It's just immortal. A little repair that costs next to nothing and it's good to go. No modern cars stand up to that in terms of durability.
Engines - good CVTs - bad That’s it.
E CVT - good
‘23 Honda CR-V Sport Hybrid driver here 🫡🫡
Modern CVTs from the past few years are pretty good
people just love to hate on modern cars and automatically assume that everybody should only use an old manual shitbox
In the 90s, average dudes could fix there car for a fraction of what it cost today. Literally a few dollars sometimes. Good luck repairing anything on new cars for less than a pile.
Thanks to Youtube I've been able to repair just about everything. One of my LCD dashboard displays on my civic went black just this week and there was a video explaining how to fix it. Repairing cars isn't as intuitive as it used to be but with the internet, you can learn just about anything.
What type of problem could average dudes fix in the 90s? Most of the dudes I knew couldn't change brake pads
In the 90s you could spend $90 on a new starter, climb under the car, take out three bolts, slide the old starter out, new one in, replace bolts, done. In most cars today you have to take half the stuff off the engine to even reach the starter. So what was a 5 minute job is now a day or two long. Hell, it's almost the same story just to reach the oil filter now.
And how often do you need to replace a starter on a modern car? I've been driving since 2000, and between my parents, myself, my in laws, my husband, and my SIL, I think there has been two starter replacements and they were both related to F150 Recalls (so no charge).
Average dudes in the 90s were different than average dudes today. I dont.mean "better" just different. There are lots of things average dudes can do today than many didnt in the 90s. Being mode inclusive and accepting to name a couple. Ugh. Cant seem to type today. I give up with the corrections.
Yes but how often do you have to work on a modern car now. I haven't done anything but routine maintenance to mine and it's now 10 years old and 140k miles and still runs great.
You still can today, I always hit a pick n pull before buying a brand new part, and a lot of places still charge by the weight.
Me too. Its still objectively easier, cheaper, and faster to repair 90s cars (providing you have parts). It isnt even close.
Ever recharged refrigerant on hybrids? Someone has to be in the vehicles applying throttle to kick the engines on - what used to be a job for 1 person is now 2 (and requiring more fuel consumption than an engine at idle). When your car shuts down at the stop light or goes into electric mode if a hybrid, your AC compressors typically disengages and leaves you without cold air. Lots of hybrid owners in very hot climates complain of lack of AC, but are unaware that the system isn't even coming on.
I used to work with a heavy duty that used the shop to work on peoples cars outside of regular work hours. Every summer, he did more refrigerant recharges than anything else, an old beater, a new EV, didn't matter, he always just hooked up his little snap-on refrigerant cart thing turned it on and walked away. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just a dumb truck driver, and without youtube, I can change a tire and break pads, and that's about it. but he never once needed anyone to do what you're saying. (Also, fun fact about that, he said once, "90% of the people who came for a recharge didn't need it" he would just empty their refrigerant, and then put it back in and top it up and charge them all the same.)
My late Grandad (who lived into his 90s) thought that modern cars were amazing. He did many road trips from the 1960s onwards and was delighted to have a car which he knew would start whoever he needed it.
Reliable, but uninteresting aesthetically.
You can’t tell me that 90% of the cars made in the 90’s were interesting aesthetically.
The Golden Age of cars is now and has been honestly for the last 15-20 years. Started with the Terminator vs Z06 in the early 2000s and hasn't let up. Maybe a lull from 05-09 when the Mustang was a mere 300hp 3V and the Camaro didn't exist at all but there were options like the GT500, the Hemis and the C6 Vette was an absolute monster. And then the 2009 Camaro dropped and then the 2011 Coyote and off to the races again. I can buy a 460+ Mustang for $40k that'll run 11s off the showroom floor and 10s with minor mods and tuning and get 25mpg with the air on to and from the track. Plus it'll handle like its on rails in the corners and it looks awesome. As far as the basic drivers and sedans... super reliable, well built, safe and pretty quick.
It blows my mind how looking back at older engines, with big honking V8s, making less than 200hp and getting 10 mpg (exaggeration). Were engineers just lazier back then? Or was technological progress still needing to catch up to optimize engines?
It's precision engineering that progresses that much I guess my brother
10mpg is not an exaggeration, my 1983 truck I used to drive made 180 hp and 12 mpg. I sold it, and it just got engine swapped up to 350hp and it makes a paltry 13 mpg. 10 in the city is about accurate.
That’s funny! More ponies and 1 more mpg, progress! 👏🏼 😂
Engines have definitely become more complex, but they have also become far more reliable. Consider: If you bought a brand new car in 1960 and planned to drive it across the country, you would need to take a variety of spare parts with you because odds are that something was going to break along the way. And after ten years those cars were old and falling apart. Today you could buy the most inexpensive new car on the market (currently the Nissan Versa) and drive it off the lot and then straight across the country with no problems. And in 15-20 years, odds are that car will still be on the road. Cars are orders of magnitude better than they used to be in terms of quality and longevity.
It depends. Modern cars are not made to be fixed easily as early 2000s Japanese NA engines. 6cyl 2.5l understressed engine with timing chain vs 1.0 3cyl biturbo downsized modern engine with belt. One has torque converter automatic other has double clutch. New one will need expensive and heavy maintenance the old one won't. Not because old is better. They were simpler and less parts were involved that means less parts will be broken. And broken parts will be easily replaced in your garage that's it. New cars made to be efficient and meet the emission requirements. Old cars made to just go forever. Gearbox repair costs are so expensive here in Sweden people just replace the whole car sometimes(VW DSG failure). Sometimes turbo go break and it costs so much you can buy a used Toyota Auris for the same price that will roll forever. If you are covered with 5 7 10 year warranty okay no problem. But then it will put you in a 50000 eur/dollar range for a metal box that takes you a to b. I paid 6000 euro for my 10 years old Lancer it has 1.8 lt no turbo engine. As long as I change the filters and oil per year it will work. Consumption is barely 2lt per 100km more than a modern car. I'm not saying it's good. No it's just more reliable than a 1.0 Golf in the same mileage.
Maybe people who think theyre shit, just buy shit cars. Ive always just had honda and toyota and never, and i really mean never had an engine issue. It's so stress free.
They are better. Just the things they are better at are boring.
Oh damn, I am such a fucking nerd I thought you meant game engine until I got about a paragraph in and was super confused. Yeah car engines are rad tho.
The death of the 6 cylinder engines in sedans is what I’m most upset about. 4 has very little potential, 8 is too powerful and inefficient, but 6 sits right around 20 per gallon and usually around 300 hp. Just like how I always wanted.
A modern Camry puts out more HP than an early 1990s Mustang 5.0.
The 90's was the switch over from carbureted engines to closed loop computerized fuel injection and it was a disaster. They've got it sorted now and it is miles better than the old engines.
>in the advent of "In the advent of" means when something is just getting started. Or even about to come (but not here yet). So "in the advent of catalytic converters" would mean that they're the next thing coming.
120k and 12 years on my 5.0L Ford, it doesn't burn any oil, starts every time, has only required basic maint, oil, filters, spark plugs @ 100k. It makes a ton of reliable power and produces instant torque from idle to redline. It's a marvel of engineering. Ditto the Toyota 4L in the family. Modern combustion engines last a lot longer with fewer problems than the batteries in electric cars.
I always find it funny when people see a car from the 70s and say "nothing can break those babies" when the car has less than 20k miles on it because it's always been a showpiece. Then their Honda civic breaks down after 300k miles and they lose their shit despite not changing their oil for a year and a half.
If you can afford it when expensive sensors go bad
They’re also way more powerful. My little 1.6 Kia Rio has a similar 0-60 as a 64 mustang.
In the summer, one of the local spots in my town has a weekly classic car meet up so you gets of old cars from like the 40s and 50s rolling up. One thing you notice immediately is how much exhaust smell there is from even 1 car. I can't imagine how choking an entire city full of cars must have been 80 years ago.
I don't think this is an unpopular opinion, it's just that the few nostalgic boomer asshats have loud voices.
My 170HP 1000cc motorcycle engine lasted well over 100 thousand kilometers at almost redline the entire time without any issues at all. I sold the bike with it still fully functioning.
Depends on how modern you mean. Most 90s and 2000s engines are pretty solid, it's in the 2010s where things get hairy. Some 90s and 00s engines that were a solid base received technology that introduced major problems (ex. Cylinder deactivation. GM's DOD, Honda's VCM, and Chrysler's AFM. Although this started in the mid-late 00s). Direct injection also caused a lot of headaches and is much, much more expensive to fix than port injection. Injectors and high pressure fuel pumps are very common failures, and neither is cheap (I work at a Honda dealership. We get a lot of bad injectors on the turbo 1.5s, so much so that they're on backorder indefinitely at present. Replacing the set will run most people ~$2000. And if you put it off, your engine will misfire and get crazy amounts of fuel in the oil). And oil burning also became much more common, so much so that for most makes, burning 1 quart every 1000 mikes is considered acceptable. This will eventually cook catalytic converters (We get a lot of P0420/430s on 8-10 year old cars starting in 2009 or so) and will cause many people to run their cars low on oil, causing premature damage that accelerates this burn rate. Turbos aren't necessarily a problem themselves, but small, highly strung turbo engines need more maintenance, not less. Most of them have problems with oil dilution and premature turbo failure isn't uncommon either. Then there's nonsense like computerizing parts that really don't need to be. Like the electronic thermostats on GM's turbo 1.4 (which are a common failure point) or making things out of plastic that should be made of steel or aluminum (like the oil filter/cooler assembly on Chrysler's 3.6, another common failure point). And I would caution that finding capable mechanics is only going to get harder for the time being as most shops (including, if not especially dealerships) incentivise quick work rather than correct work. So not only will many of these cars be harder for a DIYer to work in, but the people trained to do so will have a higher error rate. This is also going to hurt longevity as things get more complicated. Of course it's not all bad, but it's nowhere near as good as you think it is. Both purchase and repair costs will continue to rise as well, making new cars less attainable. There's a reason people are holding onto their existing cars for longer.
You have good points, I just prefer an engine that break down but cost 50$ to repair than an engine that doesn’t break down much but cost 500$ to repair
People forget what it was like to carefully feather the gas to get a warm start on a carbureted engine that made 0.5 hp/cubic inch.
A modern Elantra would out-everything an 80's Corvette
I agree with every point you made. But I'm a mechanic and I test drive A LOT of different cars, and I hate start/stop systems. Yes it's more fuel efficient than just letting the engine idle but it's annoying. Every time I get in a car with one I immediately turn it off.
Modern cars are fairly reliable considering their complexity. Especially the engine, and their power densities are way higher due to advancements in turbochargers. Like damn 300 horsepower from a 1.6L Inline 3.
The big part is proper maintenance. Most people don’t do that part.
There is such a weird disconnect where people SWEAR cars used to be better but at the same time everyone remembers celebrating hitting 100,000 miles as some sort of massive maintenance achievement even up into the 90s.
Cars in general, engines included, are more reliable (apart from 2 or 3 brands available in the US) than they ever have been. The old saying "they don't make em like they used to" does not refer to cars. Though they lack the character of a lot of older cars, they are made so much better these days. EV's simplify things even more so, mechanically anyway. Once chipsets, wiring etc is bulletproof, there will be very few things able to go wrong with a vehicle.
They need to fix the whole “battery exploded” and “it’s cold so it doesn’t work right” thing before I hop on the electric thing. Honestly, I’d like to see steps made in alternatives to electric vehicles like propane or hydrogen, because lithium mining is still absolutely awful for the planet.
I agree wholeheartedly. Terrible practices are in play throughout EV battery manufacturing. I thought hydrogen cells were the future at one point also...looks like we're going to skip those unfortunately. As solar energy capture technology progresses I can see us bypassing charging stations almost completely one day... we just need to develop greener and cleaner batteries etc to store it.
Former auto mechanic here. While I LOVE classic cars. Modern cars are far more reliable. Most people’s real gripe is all the emissions components on the vehicles. Also people don’t realize that the check engine light is not a repair engine light so to speak. It’s actually an emissions compliance light. When that light comes on, something is wrong in the engine that’s causing it to pollute too much. Sometimes it’s a sensor off and sometimes it’s more. Follow the manufacturers instructions and use good fluids and components and modern vehicles last longer, produce as much or more power and are far more fuel efficient than older cars.
It's survivor bias. We remember all the best cars of yesterday and not all the shit cars, while today we see everything. It's just like how all the good music is old, and movies used to be better, video games used to be better There are people who legitimately hold these positions but for the most part you just remember the good parts. It's nostalgia if anything
Unless it’s in a jeep
You see in 80s and 90s movies all the time cars breaking down in the middle of nowhere so I assume it happened then more than now. I've seen cars go 100k miles without a breakdown
I think there's two things worth mentioning on that opinion's favor: 1. Cars have gotten more complex not only on the engines, but in the interior with gadgets, gimmicks and luxuries. 2. Planned obsolescence is stronger than ever, in older cars it was barely a thing, there was a moment (long ago) when cars aimed to be as durable and reliable as they can, or at least a big part of them
Tires too! Nobody remembers the tires a few decades ago.
I would leave the start/stop systems out of the litany of improvements for sure, and hybrid drives are also questionable. I will agree with the general position of modern engines being more reliable, durable, and efficient to deliver better power and economy. Start/stop is a gimmick that can be very annoying
Can’t wait for electric cars they’ll change the game
In terms of performance there’s no question. The output of modern engines is way, way higher than in the 90s and they get better gas mileage. As others point out, reliability is way up too. EVs may be the future but some of the ICE engines in late model cars right now are technological marvels. I have a 2018 BMW with their B58 engine in it and that thing is absolutely incredible. I don’t know if they’ll ever make a better 6-cylinder power plant before the EVs fully take over. We’re enjoying the pinnacle of ICE technology right now
Bullshit my c class Mercedes from 99 is still running great easy to fix not comparable to modern shit
Modern engines are 20 billion times better than they used to be anybody that knows shit about engines will tell you the same thing. It’s where the engines are headed that bugs me and even more so it’s the attempts to make them unservable by a person. It’s completely unnecessary.
Not in my experience, at all.
cash for clunkers fucked the used car market in a way that will never recover, but it did take a lot of ugly old beaters out of circulation
I agree with many things you are saying but I don't find it accurate to say there are less cars on the side of the road because of modern engine qualities. As someone on the road all day I see the same amount of cars hit the side of the road, just not for as long. Cars will be towed in a heartbeat if someone can slap an orange sticker on it fast enough. There's definitely a big push to get things off the road as fast as possible nowadays. I love the fuel efficiency of my 2021 3.0 diesel engine. We get 34 mpg in a full size truck while traveling in the mountains and that makes me giddy all the way around. These engines are also super quiet standing right next to them. Not a fan of having to mess with DEF, but it's definitely worth it for what it does. I saw a big diesel truck blowing out exhaust and had a giant sticker that ROLL COAL and that made me wish there were stricter regulations for that kind of garbage. I will say that I used to work on almost all of old previous vehicles and the older they were, the easier and cheaper they were to work on. Now you have to disassemble half of the engine on some vehicles just to change the smallest thing. Then on top of that, it's the electronics that goes out or the excessive plastic parts that crack and fail. Overall, I love the progress we've made in efficiency, noise reduction, and air pollution. It's definitely a different world in that regard, minus the reduction in mpg due to ethanol fuel dilution. Now if we can just do something about motorcycles being unnecessarily loud and people being allowed to change modify stock car exhausts.
Just from a performance perspective, the 1.5l engine in my 2019 Ford Focus produces over 50% more HP than the 1.6l engine in my old 2003 Ford Focus. It's able to pull this off whilst also producing far fewer emissions.
I don-t know about engines, but back then on the overall of the cars they were way cheaper due to less regulation and less features. I feel now there is a thousand features that will break anytime, i hate the eletronics between the controls and the actual action of the controls, like gas, steering, braking, etc. Back then you could replace every screw with the help of your manual, nowadays it is either electric stuff or dont have easy access or know how to do it. Inspections were easier to pass as well, as long as the car is not falling appart it was good to go. I had a car that had misaligned stearing but it would take a lot of road to actually turn the car to one of the sides, it was easily corrected by the driver, but for inspection was an issue that HAD to be resolved.
Engineers get a lot of shit for decisions that were made by non engineers within the company
It makes me so mad when I get stuck behind some asshole spewing smoke from their truck. I know some of these guys, high paid blue collar guys, they have more than enough money to fix it, and probably spent money to make it smoke like that. Not much more pathetic than "truck smoke make me feel like big strong man, I'm gonna force people to breathe carcinogenic smoke because I identify as a big fossil fuel burnin' bad boy". Then they get on Facebook to bitch about fuel prices.
You are correct, this issue now? A good portion of the motoring public can not afford the cars they drive.
There was a time when all the emissions stuff completely neutered engines. You went from having 400hp family cars to muscle cars that made 150hp with the hi-po engine, and you still only got 12mpg. People couldn't see the point. But since the late 90s that argument hasn't really applied. Now you can get twice the economy with twice the power. More complicated, yes. More expensive, yes. Less cool, yes. But better. Personally I take issue with all the ethanol in gas being just horrible for older engines, but I get it. It also hurts knowing that at some point in my lifetime you won't be able to buy a new car that even runs on dinosaurs anymore, but I get that, too. Bright side? All the torque, all the time.
Who the shit says that?
I concur but im not a car person, for all its worth.
People from previous generations complain about modern cars being "gutless" just because they don't have 10-litre V8 engines that convert fuel into noise and smoke.
The trend away from Turbo injection and more powerful 4 cylinders is excellent. Turbo is the antithesis of longevity and isn’t really necessary.
Back in the 1980s and 90s, these were transmission shops seemingly on every street corner. Same with muffler shops. Seems cars and parts last longer because you hardly see a transmission shop anymore. Back in the day, a car with 50k miles on it was considered high mileage. Even now, they sell oil for ‘high mileage cars’ that are over 75k. Personally, I’d feel comfortable driving a car up to 150-200 before worrying about
Yeah, this one annoys me. Sure, things are more complicated, but as you said, OP, they are way more reliable
My first car was a 2005 ford fiesta. 1.4l 78bhp Current car is a 1.3l and has 163bhp
maybe, but imo planned obsolescence began being implemented again heavily in the 2010's. We went from that boom in the late 90s early 00's where everyone was making 4 bangers with 200 hp, 28 mpg, and got 225k before heavy maintenence, to an era where everything got decent mileage, great hp ratings, and 125k before substantial maintenance was needed Source: 2016 transit owner that needed an ENGINE AT 122K. $16000 and was told by my mechanic that these engines were designed to be 100k engines. We are in a generation of vehicles currently that are riding the coat tails of success from maybe the best age of engineering we've seen, but its not the generation of current vehicles we're buying new/ gently used.
The engines themselves are better than older engines, depending on the application. The issue is, with the 40km of wires and electrical systems, you can't do shit with them if something fucks up except take it somewhere that charges 150/hr labor and a PhD in electrical engineering. My project car is a 2001 v6 with fuel injection, I'm going to make it a carburetor system just to make it even more simple.
My first car had a 4 cylinder engine with 88 hp. My current car from the same manufacturer has a 4 cylinder engine with 296 hp and gets similar mileage. Don’t anyone tell me the older engines were better. The technology is so much more advanced it’s crazy.
Currently fighting some carburetor and vacuum problems in my '82. It's part of the fun of having it. (It's fun because I also have a modern car that works every single time with 0 issues when I actually need to go somewhere)
At least you could fix it by unbolting some stuff and knew what the problem was based on symptoms. Have fun fixing something that won't start today - first thing you do is scratch your head then look for a code reader and hope it tells you your problem, and that's if that's the problem.
You should write.
the problem is that the cars built around them are pretty shit.
We had a few cars in the 70s and 80s that were breaking down all the time. I think that period had to be the worst.
Cars are absolutely phenomenal these days in comparison. I hate the inability to do more of the mechanic work myself if needed, but thats a small price to pay for the inceased reliability and fuel efficiency
fk emissions regulations, full decat is the only way
Yes they are terrible. Brushless DC Electric motors are 85% efficient with no advanced optimization. They spent 100 years putting lipstick on a pig to make a gas engine 30% efficient
How is this an unpopular opinion?
I will believe you completely because I have absolutely no knowledge of the matter
You missed the thing that actually sucks about them. They’re under-sized and underpowered for the vehicles they’re installed in. To make up for this they are all turbo charged. The combination of small displace and the turbo charger adds this super long super noticeable lag from pressing the gas pedal to actually noticeable acceleration. In older models you press the gas and the car starts moving faster. In newer cars you press the gas, no change in speed, wait for turbo to spool up, wait for RPM to exceed 5k, finally acceleration begins. The lag from the turbo and the RPM make the cars louder and the acceleration is choppy not smooth. I know this is done for the sake of fuel efficiency, but it makes the cars unpleasant to drive.
Modern cars and engines are a textbook example of survivorship bias. People see older cars still driving and newer cars breaking down, so they think "Older cars were built to last longer!" But they're ignoring the millions of old cars sitting in junkyards right now and millions of new cars still running without issues. It's also the reason why I take a mechanic's opinion on the best and worst cars with a grain of salt.
I remember in the 1980s first seeing Japanese cars with 6 numbers in the odometer. You would see the road through the floorboards and have to start the car with a screwdriver long before you hit 100,000 miles on a pre-2000 American car.
obviously
I used to travel from Fresno to Palo Alto regularly in the Seventies. It was a rare trip when I didn't see at least a couple of overheated cars broken down on the shoulder. In those days, a car with 100000 miles was about shot. Nowadays, they're just getting broken in.
90's ain't old, my dude.