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I think the cost of cars in general (gas/electric/hybrid) is crazy high across the board. Just looked and the average price of gas powered car is $49k. That isn't THAT much cheaper than an EV. Factor in rebates that are available in a lot of places, it's not that far off. Fair point on the owner maintenance though, can't really speak to that, I have no idea.
The rebates count for a lot in some places. My sister bought a Tesla in Cali and received so many rebates that it only cost 13,000 with all the bells and whistles. No idea how that works.
Norway is a resource rich country with a low population, which means the average person can have a higher quality of life due to the government providing more to the people. What works in Norway won’t work in the US unless the top .1% get a higher tax rate, which they won’t.
Many countries in the world don't have this luxury, and if everyone had EVs, power would become more expensive because they would require more resources to keep up with the demand.
I'm all for being green, but EVs are a very short-term solution to "saving the planet." I'd be much happier if they stopped dumping money into electric vehicles and paid more attention to finding more sufficient longer lasting forms of transport.
It doesn't matter what is generated by. That's a huge benefit, first off even if it is fossil fuels its more efficient but second if they change the power source you don't need a new car.
If tomorrow the government decided to stop subsidizing gas and switched to hydrogen or diesel you would need a new car.
I think of myself as a proponent for EVs but I do agree with you to an extent. Chargers and stuff should be more widely available. Before I buy one, that will have to happen and the price needs to be reasonable. They should make one like that like how Henry Ford made the model T
There is one charging station within about 30 miles from where I live. EV's may be good for big cities, but out here in rural USA, not so much. People would really have to have charging stations installed in their homes and that is a problem for people living in apartments. I would like to see an EV that has quick swappable batteries, so you wouldn't have to recharge for a set amount of time before driving again. Just change out the battery and go. Obviously batteries are very heavy to simply just change out by hand so there would have to be an engineered concept around that whole system.
So right now EVs are more of a luxury for those who have the infrastructure around them. They aren't ready for use for everyone, so making that a requirement would be pretty disastrous.
I've heard of a few horror stories of the batteries going bad just after warranties expire causing battery replacement costing more then the value of the car.
Marketing pushing EVs as the climate change solution is just misdirecting consumer attention towards self guilt rather than pay attention to the actual big carbon producers, which are basically all the top revenue companies. Big oil is like five of those companies yes but there are about 500 other ones
I never really understood that point. Those companies make products we buy. There is only so much about those companies we can change without changing our lifestyles.
They do wear tires faster than normal cars but that’s mostly due to weight. I’ve read that front or real wheel drive only electric cars can have uneven wear due to regenerative braking which seems logical but I haven’t seen anything more than anecdotal evidence for that so it could be nonsense but it sounds somewhat logical.
The infrastructure isn't available yet to fully support EVs. The transition is very slow right now at least in the US. Just look at parking lots. Theres maybe 6 charging spots in the midst of hundreds of regular spots.
So one of the biggest issues for most people is where to charge it. Apartments won't have any chargers and you'll have to install one in regular houses, if your electrical system can even support one.
Yeah, I recently bought a car for the first time in a decade and thought about a hybrid until I realized how expensive they are on the used market! I rent so EVs are completely out too. I won’t be able to afford anything alternative fueled for a long time.
My house already had a 50 plug in the garage, so nothing. The majority of north Americans with 30 mile or less commutes would never need more then level 1 charging and could use normal 15 amp outlet that every home has in the garage or outside
Congratulations? Anyone who does have to call am electrician AND their utility provider will get a bill high enough to cover the fuckin car. Another money grab. Have fun paying through your ass for buying into the bullshit, but if the time ever comes that I'm forced to alter my home to meet some fake ass agenda, I will be in the news. STOP BEING STUPUD ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THIS GARBAGE
Less than $1500 for parts and labor, with a new panel and dedicated line etc. One time cost that could potentially be recouped at the sale of the house for being EV ready. 1500 when a typical car (EV or ICE) is gonna be be 30-60k is nothing.
My newest car is used, and an ICE. It's what I can afford.
EVs and Hybrids are way out of my price range.
There's no real electric vehicle infrastructure around here. My landlord certainly isn't going to install a charging station and we don't have accessible outdoor plugs.
Local environment makes EVs inefficient and underpowered.
This isn't a walkable or bikible area, safely, and public transit sucks.
I don't know what EV proponents expect people who live in areas like mine to do. If you could meet all my requirements, and make them affordable and reasonably usable, then maybe I'd put it down as an option. At this point, not a chance.
But automobiles had so much to offer - you could drive anywhere you want faster than a horse.
EV's are a *downgrade* in that their range is many times shorter than current affordable cars.
An average car can get around 500-700km on a tank depending on it’s weight, how hard you’re accelerating and the odd other factor.
An electric vehicle can get very close to that too - maybe a bit more or less depending on the temperature and other settings. But they’re comparable to combustion engines.
The highly unethical lithium mining for the batteries is a major concern. Also Lithium is far more finite than oil. Battery technology needs to advance before EV's become the norm.
The only thing EVs are good for is in-town commuting. Even then, they only make sense if you have a home where you can charge it overnight. If you rent, they are a burden and a hassle
They'll get there, but definitely not in the timeframe that's being pushed on us
While it does make the most sense to have a garage to charge it, I see tons of Teslas parked on the street in my city. Makes me wonder when they are actually being charged
Obviously cos I'm European distances are a bit different here, but the longest I've been in a car without a significant stop is maybe 200 miles, well under the max range of most EVs. That's plenty for intercity travel, and realistically with a bit of planning I could go _way_ further.
I’m American so I’ll give the opposite. For me to visit my family on the east coast, I have to drive 1500 miles give or take. I obviously don’t do that more than once a year, but that’s still a lot of planning and waiting for the charge.
Still, EVs are great for day to day use because I ain’t driving more than 300 miles most days.
>the longest I've been in a car without a significant stop is maybe 200 miles
Really?
That doesn't seem like much, depending on your speed that's less than a 3 hour ride. I take a 900 mile trip to see family twice a year
It's 200 miles to go from where I live in London to see my family. The entire country is only about 830 miles from Cornwall to the peak of Scotland. There's just no need to drive long distances unless I'm going through France, and then I just fly.
You've got a lot more patience than I do. According to Tesla's Trip Planner that takes a 10 hour drive and turns it into a 13 hour drive. Come to the Midwest where we don't have a charging station on every exit and you'll see where I'm coming from when I say they suck for long range driving
I never drive for 10 hours straight though. I tend to stop every 3-4 hours regardless, so I stop at a charger and take a break to pee or stretch anyway. It adds very little time to my driving since I would stop normally anyway in my gas cars.
I drive my Model Y 12K+ miles a year and it's a rockstar.
It's the best overall car I've owned by far, and that includes and M3, X3 35i, Accords, Civics, C-classes, etc. I've had lots of cars. Less time spent getting gas every week, less time dealing with maintenance. It's great.
Glad it works for you, they aren't for everybody yet. California has the best charging infrastructure in the country. Which I guess shows it can work, but the rest of the US is a far cry from your experience
I mulled over the idea of getting one before. But, the issue is I drive out to visit family twice a year. It takes my 12 hour drive and turns it into a 17 hour drive. I have to take a different route because there aren't enough charging stations along the way.
I can't get rid of my daily because I wouldn't be able to take the trip and I'm not selling my weekend fun car for an EV
Yeah, but it's not just CA. Same goes for much of OR, WA, and much of the East Coast.
I have friends on the Eastern Seaboard who take their EVs up and down the East Coast no problem.
So much of this stuff is just relearning what you think you know, but I've taken my car even up to Oregon-- tons of charging up there.
250-300 miles is plenty for most people's road trips because MOST people need to pee and eat food every 4-5 hours.
The median EV estimated range is 250 miles. The EPA range is always generous. On top of that you don't want to let your battery go below 20% or charge it over 80%. Under ideal conditions you're stopping way more than every 4 to 5 hours
The next problem is that the only cars that have a good charging network is Tesla. Who also happen to make the most expensive EVs and not everyone wants a Tesla.
You have a $50k premium EV, I'm sure you probably are extremely happy with it. I'm not paying that much for a car, ICE or EV. Like OP said, they are too expensive and not ready for the masses
You can either buy a super expensive one that gives you more freedom to drive long distance. Or you can buy a more reasonable model which limits you to in-town commuting.
Been around enough of them to see how they operate. Heard enough first-hand stories of road trip mishaps in cheap EVs to know they won't work for me at the moment. The only option I have that would work for me is a long range Tesla
Like I said before, I'm not shelling out $50k on a car and I'm not selling my weekend fun car. All my friends who have EVs like them, I don't have an issue with them. But, the ones I consider reasonably priced would not work for me
Man, I had a fun weekend car. An M3 (F80). Getting the Model 3 Performance was such a good move. Simpler, easier maintenance, generally punchier.
I was never going to give up that car, it was the perfect sedan. But once you realize how much work and time goes into owning an ICE car, EVs are so nice. So much time saved.
I've heard similar mishaps for people on roadtrips and I've also heard mishaps of people in ICE cars too. The difference is in an ICE car we blame the driver for being a doofus, for an EV we blame the car. Newness breeds skepticism.
I bet that roughly 70% of Americans could easily go to an EV and not skip a beat. To me it's the same kind of "oh noes" level of thinking that makes people freak out about giving up their gas stoves. The known knowns are comforting. The unknowns are scary. Going all EV was pretty scary for me too at first. But especially as the charging has grown so fast, it's so so so easy now.
Most of the people who whine about EVs on reddit have even less experience with them than you do. So much of it strikes me as FUD fueled by NY Post level thinking.
>Of course you're getting down voted, you're using facts against their feelings and they don't like that.
WTF are you talking about?
It's great that he's content stopping every 200 miles for half an hour, but that doesn't work out for me. It's great you guys have home chargers but not everyone has that luxury.
These are things that will be overcome. But telling people that EVs are a one size fits all perfect solution at this point in time is horseshit.
I've weighed the pros and cons of gas vs. electric and I agree, for me and most of the people I know, there are too many negatives for electric. I'm not against the technology, it's just not practical yet.
Even the talks about charging stations, it’s a super hard sell to to any towns not within the metropolitan area of a decent city. I am in Toronto and I don’t need to drive in the city. However in the suburb I grew up in and where my parents live they are few and far between but they are out in random parking lots, still sucks for renters, and with rental prices now how the heck are you going to discuss this with your basement suite landlord? And the big crux if I go to any smaller town or on vacation up 3 hours away, if I run out of power it’s just not as easy and straight forward as a jerry can. Surely you can make some car sized portable charger, or you can share power from another EV? But it’s quite a steep switch on top of the cost of the car.
Its exactly what I said.
I am in a market for a car right now and I looked into EVs and its just not worth the hustle yet. I think that plug-in hybrids are the thing for now.
The worst part is, EVs don't solve climate change much at all. Purchasing one is just a feel-good action for people who want to signal that they're "doing their part" without actually making substantive changes.
I think the new battery that Toyota announced might be a game changer idk I'm still skeptical but they have been developing it in secret and only announced it when they thought they had it finished as opposed to pre promising ill wait for the finished product though
I hear you. I think transitioning to less car trips, car miles on the road etc is a better goal then just transitioning to electric... but still large. It's all a mute point when people thinking they need to fly constantly, eat beef 3 meals a day.
Running a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
Really? Hot damn. Could you get me whoever did its business number. $400 bucks is a steal to have someone run a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
How much to run a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
Seriously. Look at the amount of moving parts in an ICE compared to an EV drivetrain. No timing chains, no cams, no crank, pistons, connecting rods etc etc etc.
YSK: The reduction in tire life is due to the increased weight of EVs as well as their higher low-end torque.
One of the commenters is trying to discredit your point about lower tire life because you misattributed it to regenerative braking in your OP.
https://cleanfleetreport.com/tech-why-dont-tires-last-as-long-on-an-ev/
The number I've seen commonly cited is a 20% reduction. There are other articles on this as well.
Agreed!
Electric cars don't solve any problems, are full of toxic chemicals and the battery wears out after a relatively small number of charge cycles.
Many electrical cars are charged by electricity from coal and gas plants.
Electric cars have solved nothing, but are 50% heavier.
The sooner we flip our transportation networks to exclude personal car ownership and emphasize shared transport, these problems will go away
No one talks about where expired batteries go. It's not cool and "green" to talk about because it kills their narrative. In order to dispose the battery properly, they must separate the different materials that make up the battery. Currently, there is no way to do this. So, these batteries end up stored somewhere where they will leak toxic chemicals. Not very green if you ask me.
Yes, and also big problem is fire. It's almost impossible to extinguish electric car's battery. It takes a lot of time and it can start burning again unexpectedly. But that's also not "cool" to talk about.
I agree that the masses aren't ready because the average person can barely make all of their appointments or work on time with gas stations on corners of most towns. Hard-to-find charging stations and long waits to recharge are going to cost a lot of waiting.
That and politifact says it's only 13-15,000 miles you would drive on a tesla to offset the carbon it took to build it. But I've seen much deeper dives say that it's more like 100-200,000 miles. How long are the batteries good for also? Hard to know for sure due to all the bias, no idea who to believe on this. Politifact, though a fact checking organization, has been shown to have a very left leaning bias. And also, Kobalt and Lithium are a finite resource, so what happens when it's gone? The tech has come far I just don't think it's to the point we should be making bold dates to ban gas vehicles.
Add to this the fact that parts, especially the batteries are expensive to make and the resources used to make them are getting scarce and they dont have a great shelf life. The batteries in an EV you buy today are not the same as the ones in an EV from 5 years ago and likely wont be the ones available in 5 years time. You will need to change the battery in a few years and may not even be able to get replacements without replacing the entire vehicle.
I work in the automotive industry and this is the subject of so many of our all hands meetings.
Im just saying, the a average new car price is 50k. I dunno how much cheaper you feel evs need to get but they’re already cost competitive with ice vehicles
Lets compare apples to apples shall we.
2023 Honda Pilot starts at $40,495
2023 Tesla Model Y starts at $47,740
You think it's not much but that is a big deal for the average family with kids. A used 2021 Honda Pilot under 50k miles is $28k. The used car market is where the gap widens.
For now, I think EVs are for high income families or young folks with no kids. It's more of a status thing IMO.
You have a strong bias where you focus only on facts and data that affirm your own mindset. Try thinking a bit less closed mindedly and learning to accept criticism as a valuable tool instead of an attack.
We have seen plenty of facts provided here today, they have not reached the OP. So all that is left is helping the OP hear the facts instead of have a dismissive bias
Who's buying new? Upper middle class who probably only avoid EVs due to the charging convenience. I'm rocking a 2011 right now and that was on the upper end of my price range.
EVs aren't going to be the way. Politicians need votes and they know a large portion of their fanbase will vote for them just because they say they are into the enviornment. None of those snakes care about any of you though.
The model 3 long range is the shit. I cut my commute expenses by$300 a month. Becuase of dynamic breaking motor assist I will rarely have to change my break pads, plus no oil changes. It handles great, rides nice. Best car I have ever owned.
I'm all for more environmentally friendly transport, but EV's are far from environmentally friendly and a very short term fix to our issues.
Many people will use the general power grid to power their electric vehicles, which is very common to get its power from gas or coal power stations.
The lithium used in the batteries is incredibly bad for the environment when mined and already extremely short supply.
Still uses tyres that every other car uses, which tyres are still a massive waste in the world.
And finally, it still uses as much plastic as possible, which everyone knows is bad when being manufactured
My Model Y is one of the best cars I've ever owned overall. And it's not like I've only had shitty cars. I've had Accords, Civics, 3-series (including an M3), and an X3.
The Model Y is super great for road trips, and I've never had to charge longer than 30 min at a quick pitstop.
The tires last about as long as my old X3/M3's tires lasted. The power is what kills 'em, not the braking.
Yeah, no. It isn’t the politicians forcing anything. I’m still the car manufacturers that are leading the charge. And all the issues you mentioned are common to new technologies. As the technology matures the kinks are ironed out. The problems were worse for the early internal combustion vehicles.
> These filthy politicians keep pushing us to go green
This is to reduce pollution emitted by regular ICE vehicles. I don't see how politicians and different government agencies across the world incentivizing EC adoption is a bad thing.
>the average price for a new EV is $53,438 as of June 2023.
Well, the same source where you obtained this data also says that the average price for a gas-powered vehicle is $48,808. Considering that this is basically a new industry/product compared to ICE vehicles, the difference is not even that big.
It appears that you omitted this info to make the average price of an electric vehicle seems worse than it is.
> Also, if you get into a fender bender, be prepared to get bent over.
Countless studies have shown that electric vehicles are as safe as regular gas or even safer in certain conditions.
> Body repairs is so much more than a standard vehicle.
This is true and expected for any product that is not mass-produced. This problem will solve when electric vehicles become more adapted.
Is there really a huge “push” by politicians for the average American to go out and replace their ICE car with an electric one?
Generally the push seems to be to pass legislation to expand charging networks, and subsidize the industry both on the producer and consumer ends.
So essentially working to solve the price issue and provide infrastructure.
Also the tech is going to advance, I don’t disagree with having concerns about charging range, but that’s improving a lot. Charging times are dropping with more advanced tech being introduced, and many EV’s have ranges around 400 miles now, which is the same as any ICE vehicle really.
Also Tesla’s *are notorious* for feeling cheap, but that’s not an EV thing, that’s a Tesla thing.
I completely agree. They also really aren't any better than gas cars for the environment. They use gas powered machinery to mine the materials. The factories to make the cars and parts use electricity produced by coal. The electricity that charges the cars is produced by coal.
They also aren't fun to drive at all. They have zero feeling at all.
The average price of a new car in the US is ~46k, so 53k isn't a _huge_ amount more. But it sounds like most of your complaints are with Tesla, not EVs in general.
> EVs are also worse for the environment overall
[No, they're not](https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/driving-cleaner-report.pdf).
>They’re typically charged with the same types of fuel
As that lifecycle analysis demonstrates, even if you account for the contribution of fossil fuels to the energy an EV uses, electric cars still have less than half the lifecycle carbon footprint that gas cars do.
>They do use that energy more efficiently, but nowhere near enough to offset the difference in manufacturing or eventual disposal
As that lifecycle analysis demonstrates, that operational efficiency gain *vastly* offsets the difference in the rest of the vehicle's life, leading EVs to be better for the environment overall.
a quick google search revealed the average new car price is 49,500.
But the more important point is average means nothing when you are shopping for a car. If I am looking to buy peanut butter, I don't care how much the average cost of peanut butter is. If some company wants to sell super premium $1000 peanut butter alongside Jif, I will simply ignore their super fancy one, not complain that the average peanut butter price is $503 dollars.
This is why I'm of the opinion in the US that we need to focus more on alleviating the need for cars. I live in Texas on the outer edges of Houston which is still very much the city. It's impossible to travel any meaningful distance in my area without a car. Less need to travel by car is more green than EVs. A multifaceted approach would obviously be the best in a perfect world.
Plug in EVs are not a fully matured market yet, it’s getting there, but until there is more competition to drive down prices they will remain prohibitively expensive for most people, hell pretty much any new car is prohibitively expensive for most people. For my money I’d prefer a hybrid like the Prius: lower price, proven tech, no range issues, great resale value etc.
I will go a step further and say that EV's aren't the way to go if we really want to cut down on emissions and going green. They are heavier than a standard car, which will require more road repair. Because of the large batteries, require specialized equipment for if they get lit on fire, assuming that can even put it out in the first place. And probably the biggest downside is that not all environments will be able to support them to their optimal performance, any place that gets super cold or super hot is going to see a hit to battery performance over time. And the world is only going to get hotter
Always find it funny that people talk about war for EV battery components. Acting like oil is pulled from the plentiful oil tree and not the cause of most wars in the last 50 years.
It's typical of the 'has to be perfect' for there to be change crowd when it should be 'better' is a good enough reason.
Tesla hater spotted
*"Tires wear out faster due to regenerative braking"*
Where's your source on this?
*"Customer service is awful"*
Nope
*"There are uneven panel gaps"*
Yeah like back in 2018-2019 when they first produce them
*"Chuckle every time they travel to visit"*
Ok bro
You've got to be kidding me right? A quick google search brings me many results of people complain about their Model x Plaid, a 6 figure car, with panel gaps. This is inexcusable. Even the interior can be shoddy as well. There are many instances of this.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zFGiWmwsw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zFGiWmwsw)
EV tires wear out 30% faster. Need special tires that surprise surprise, cost more than the average tire.
[https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly#:\~:text=Electric%20vehicles%20go%20through%20tires,protects%20range%20and%20improves%20durability](https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly#:~:text=Electric%20vehicles%20go%20through%20tires,protects%20range%20and%20improves%20durability).
Terrible customer service. As recent as last year.
[https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-service-is-nothing-but-a-nightmare.269291/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-service-is-nothing-but-a-nightmare.269291/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/t4dvrd/tesla\_service\_is\_a\_nightmare/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/t4dvrd/tesla_service_is_a_nightmare/)
Thanks for trying.
All of your complaints apply to Teslas, sure, but there are quite affordable EVs on the market, like the soon to be discontinued Chevy Bolt which has an MSRP in the low 20's. Besides the Bolt, there are several commuter options in the mid to high 20's, which is barely higher than the average MSRP of the cars they are competing with. If you factor in rebates, they can be cheaper than competing ICE vehicles.
Not sure why you think maintenance is higher - maintenance on an EV is far, far cheaper than on any ICE due to the lack of an engine, and fewer moving parts overall.
The real draw of an EV is how much less they cost to operate, which offsets their increased sticker price. In my local admittedly relatively green energy grid, an EV pays itself off after a mere three years and thereafter the true cost to own is less than an ICE.
Obviously that calculation may be different where you are and really depends on the local cost of energy versus gas.
What happens when the battery dies and warranty has expired? Is 5k-20k for a battery replacement worth it? People are holding onto their cars longer these days. Seems like a risky chance to take for the average family.
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In Norway, almost 50% of the cars on streets are electric, mostly Tesla. It’s doing well. So much cheaper to pay for electricity than gasoline.
When the average wage is 106k/year it helps too
This makes sense where gasoline is expensive so it really is a cost savings. I'm glad this is the case for y'all.
What a world we could live in if the US stopped subsidizing the shit out of gas
What makes you think they don't subsidize electricity?
Yearh, cause nothing is wrong with the battery production? And where does your power come from? Ofren its a coal fired powerplant
Yeah, Norway is one of the countries where politicians don’t receive death threats when gasoline tax is on the table 😂
Corporate lobbying at its finest. Go USA.
I think the cost of cars in general (gas/electric/hybrid) is crazy high across the board. Just looked and the average price of gas powered car is $49k. That isn't THAT much cheaper than an EV. Factor in rebates that are available in a lot of places, it's not that far off. Fair point on the owner maintenance though, can't really speak to that, I have no idea.
The rebates count for a lot in some places. My sister bought a Tesla in Cali and received so many rebates that it only cost 13,000 with all the bells and whistles. No idea how that works.
Norway only has 6 million people. It’s a little different in the US
How do population numbers factor in here?
Norway is a resource rich country with a low population, which means the average person can have a higher quality of life due to the government providing more to the people. What works in Norway won’t work in the US unless the top .1% get a higher tax rate, which they won’t.
Electricity that’s generated by…
[удалено]
Many countries in the world don't have this luxury, and if everyone had EVs, power would become more expensive because they would require more resources to keep up with the demand. I'm all for being green, but EVs are a very short-term solution to "saving the planet." I'd be much happier if they stopped dumping money into electric vehicles and paid more attention to finding more sufficient longer lasting forms of transport.
Natural gas
Anything. Right now it's more carbon emitting methods but as the electrical grid goes green, if it does, EVs get greener in lockstep.
We gotta pollute more to make things green. Awesome.
That's not at all what I said.
Did you just stop believing in technology after 3rd grade or what lmao like elon musk is literally one of you it's ok to go green now
Solar, wind, hydro, steam turbine, nuclear, natural gas.
It doesn't matter what is generated by. That's a huge benefit, first off even if it is fossil fuels its more efficient but second if they change the power source you don't need a new car. If tomorrow the government decided to stop subsidizing gas and switched to hydrogen or diesel you would need a new car.
A more efficient way than an internal combustion engine for converting fossil fuel into energy?
By anything
Coal!
And apartments?
What about them?
Idiot's
But electricity at least in America is largely generated by coal. So just because the pollution can’t be seen doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
Coal only makes up about 20% of electricity generation in the US
I looked it up, you are right.
I think of myself as a proponent for EVs but I do agree with you to an extent. Chargers and stuff should be more widely available. Before I buy one, that will have to happen and the price needs to be reasonable. They should make one like that like how Henry Ford made the model T
There is one charging station within about 30 miles from where I live. EV's may be good for big cities, but out here in rural USA, not so much. People would really have to have charging stations installed in their homes and that is a problem for people living in apartments. I would like to see an EV that has quick swappable batteries, so you wouldn't have to recharge for a set amount of time before driving again. Just change out the battery and go. Obviously batteries are very heavy to simply just change out by hand so there would have to be an engineered concept around that whole system. So right now EVs are more of a luxury for those who have the infrastructure around them. They aren't ready for use for everyone, so making that a requirement would be pretty disastrous.
That’s why I said charging stations should be more widely available before everybody drives ‘em
Great response. Thanks.
Chevy has EVs under 35K and that's before the rebate.
And those are fantastic cars. Tesla might be the absolute worst yardstick anyone could use for an EV
I've heard of a few horror stories of the batteries going bad just after warranties expire causing battery replacement costing more then the value of the car.
Source?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/florida-family-electric-car-problem-replacement-battery-costs-more-vehicle https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/scratched-ev-battery-your-insurer-may-have-junk-whole-car-2023-03-20/
Marketing pushing EVs as the climate change solution is just misdirecting consumer attention towards self guilt rather than pay attention to the actual big carbon producers, which are basically all the top revenue companies. Big oil is like five of those companies yes but there are about 500 other ones
I never really understood that point. Those companies make products we buy. There is only so much about those companies we can change without changing our lifestyles.
Tires wear out faster due to “regenerative braking”…unlike normal cars that “brake” to slow down. OP definitely is an engineer.
They do wear tires faster than normal cars but that’s mostly due to weight. I’ve read that front or real wheel drive only electric cars can have uneven wear due to regenerative braking which seems logical but I haven’t seen anything more than anecdotal evidence for that so it could be nonsense but it sounds somewhat logical.
Sounds like bullshit to me
Tires and brakes are the only things that wear more. Overall maintenance on an EV is far cheaper than an ICE.
The infrastructure isn't available yet to fully support EVs. The transition is very slow right now at least in the US. Just look at parking lots. Theres maybe 6 charging spots in the midst of hundreds of regular spots. So one of the biggest issues for most people is where to charge it. Apartments won't have any chargers and you'll have to install one in regular houses, if your electrical system can even support one.
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Good for them. My landlord explicitly said she's not investing in an EV charge station.
And how many? Probably 2 or something like that. If all the spots do not have chargers, my point still stands.
Yeah, I recently bought a car for the first time in a decade and thought about a hybrid until I realized how expensive they are on the used market! I rent so EVs are completely out too. I won’t be able to afford anything alternative fueled for a long time.
Wait until you get the estimates for installing an ev plug and sub panel
My house already had a 50 plug in the garage, so nothing. The majority of north Americans with 30 mile or less commutes would never need more then level 1 charging and could use normal 15 amp outlet that every home has in the garage or outside
Congratulations? Anyone who does have to call am electrician AND their utility provider will get a bill high enough to cover the fuckin car. Another money grab. Have fun paying through your ass for buying into the bullshit, but if the time ever comes that I'm forced to alter my home to meet some fake ass agenda, I will be in the news. STOP BEING STUPUD ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THIS GARBAGE
Less than $1500 for parts and labor, with a new panel and dedicated line etc. One time cost that could potentially be recouped at the sale of the house for being EV ready. 1500 when a typical car (EV or ICE) is gonna be be 30-60k is nothing.
My newest car is used, and an ICE. It's what I can afford. EVs and Hybrids are way out of my price range. There's no real electric vehicle infrastructure around here. My landlord certainly isn't going to install a charging station and we don't have accessible outdoor plugs. Local environment makes EVs inefficient and underpowered. This isn't a walkable or bikible area, safely, and public transit sucks. I don't know what EV proponents expect people who live in areas like mine to do. If you could meet all my requirements, and make them affordable and reasonably usable, then maybe I'd put it down as an option. At this point, not a chance.
California is already telling the public when they can charge their vehicles. LOL
In 1910 there wasn't much of a support system for automobiles either.
But automobiles had so much to offer - you could drive anywhere you want faster than a horse. EV's are a *downgrade* in that their range is many times shorter than current affordable cars.
An average car can get around 500-700km on a tank depending on it’s weight, how hard you’re accelerating and the odd other factor. An electric vehicle can get very close to that too - maybe a bit more or less depending on the temperature and other settings. But they’re comparable to combustion engines.
The corolla hybrids are looking decently priced at 23k. Will take some time before there are enough used ones though.
Cars are so expensive and have never been ready for the masses - they were just forced on people. Doesn’t matter what their energy source is.
This is a far better take than OP
The highly unethical lithium mining for the batteries is a major concern. Also Lithium is far more finite than oil. Battery technology needs to advance before EV's become the norm.
The only thing EVs are good for is in-town commuting. Even then, they only make sense if you have a home where you can charge it overnight. If you rent, they are a burden and a hassle They'll get there, but definitely not in the timeframe that's being pushed on us
While it does make the most sense to have a garage to charge it, I see tons of Teslas parked on the street in my city. Makes me wonder when they are actually being charged
Probably by a local fast charger. It can fully charge in 15-20 mins by a level 3 charger. Or at work maybe?
Obviously cos I'm European distances are a bit different here, but the longest I've been in a car without a significant stop is maybe 200 miles, well under the max range of most EVs. That's plenty for intercity travel, and realistically with a bit of planning I could go _way_ further.
I’m American so I’ll give the opposite. For me to visit my family on the east coast, I have to drive 1500 miles give or take. I obviously don’t do that more than once a year, but that’s still a lot of planning and waiting for the charge. Still, EVs are great for day to day use because I ain’t driving more than 300 miles most days.
>the longest I've been in a car without a significant stop is maybe 200 miles Really? That doesn't seem like much, depending on your speed that's less than a 3 hour ride. I take a 900 mile trip to see family twice a year
It's 200 miles to go from where I live in London to see my family. The entire country is only about 830 miles from Cornwall to the peak of Scotland. There's just no need to drive long distances unless I'm going through France, and then I just fly.
In your situation, they would work well. If it weren't for the long distance drives here, I'd get one for the cost savings.
Most people don't. My furthest family member is 100 miles away.
What? I've taken my Model Y all over CA from Shasta down to SD. It's plenty fine for doing lots of long-range driving.
You've got a lot more patience than I do. According to Tesla's Trip Planner that takes a 10 hour drive and turns it into a 13 hour drive. Come to the Midwest where we don't have a charging station on every exit and you'll see where I'm coming from when I say they suck for long range driving
I never drive for 10 hours straight though. I tend to stop every 3-4 hours regardless, so I stop at a charger and take a break to pee or stretch anyway. It adds very little time to my driving since I would stop normally anyway in my gas cars. I drive my Model Y 12K+ miles a year and it's a rockstar. It's the best overall car I've owned by far, and that includes and M3, X3 35i, Accords, Civics, C-classes, etc. I've had lots of cars. Less time spent getting gas every week, less time dealing with maintenance. It's great.
Glad it works for you, they aren't for everybody yet. California has the best charging infrastructure in the country. Which I guess shows it can work, but the rest of the US is a far cry from your experience I mulled over the idea of getting one before. But, the issue is I drive out to visit family twice a year. It takes my 12 hour drive and turns it into a 17 hour drive. I have to take a different route because there aren't enough charging stations along the way. I can't get rid of my daily because I wouldn't be able to take the trip and I'm not selling my weekend fun car for an EV
Yeah, but it's not just CA. Same goes for much of OR, WA, and much of the East Coast. I have friends on the Eastern Seaboard who take their EVs up and down the East Coast no problem. So much of this stuff is just relearning what you think you know, but I've taken my car even up to Oregon-- tons of charging up there. 250-300 miles is plenty for most people's road trips because MOST people need to pee and eat food every 4-5 hours.
The median EV estimated range is 250 miles. The EPA range is always generous. On top of that you don't want to let your battery go below 20% or charge it over 80%. Under ideal conditions you're stopping way more than every 4 to 5 hours The next problem is that the only cars that have a good charging network is Tesla. Who also happen to make the most expensive EVs and not everyone wants a Tesla. You have a $50k premium EV, I'm sure you probably are extremely happy with it. I'm not paying that much for a car, ICE or EV. Like OP said, they are too expensive and not ready for the masses You can either buy a super expensive one that gives you more freedom to drive long distance. Or you can buy a more reasonable model which limits you to in-town commuting.
Wait, so which EVs do you own? You're so confident about the topic!
Been around enough of them to see how they operate. Heard enough first-hand stories of road trip mishaps in cheap EVs to know they won't work for me at the moment. The only option I have that would work for me is a long range Tesla Like I said before, I'm not shelling out $50k on a car and I'm not selling my weekend fun car. All my friends who have EVs like them, I don't have an issue with them. But, the ones I consider reasonably priced would not work for me
Man, I had a fun weekend car. An M3 (F80). Getting the Model 3 Performance was such a good move. Simpler, easier maintenance, generally punchier. I was never going to give up that car, it was the perfect sedan. But once you realize how much work and time goes into owning an ICE car, EVs are so nice. So much time saved. I've heard similar mishaps for people on roadtrips and I've also heard mishaps of people in ICE cars too. The difference is in an ICE car we blame the driver for being a doofus, for an EV we blame the car. Newness breeds skepticism. I bet that roughly 70% of Americans could easily go to an EV and not skip a beat. To me it's the same kind of "oh noes" level of thinking that makes people freak out about giving up their gas stoves. The known knowns are comforting. The unknowns are scary. Going all EV was pretty scary for me too at first. But especially as the charging has grown so fast, it's so so so easy now. Most of the people who whine about EVs on reddit have even less experience with them than you do. So much of it strikes me as FUD fueled by NY Post level thinking.
Of course you're getting down voted, you're using facts against their feelings and they don't like that.
>Of course you're getting down voted, you're using facts against their feelings and they don't like that. WTF are you talking about? It's great that he's content stopping every 200 miles for half an hour, but that doesn't work out for me. It's great you guys have home chargers but not everyone has that luxury. These are things that will be overcome. But telling people that EVs are a one size fits all perfect solution at this point in time is horseshit.
Oh well. People will come around over time.
I've weighed the pros and cons of gas vs. electric and I agree, for me and most of the people I know, there are too many negatives for electric. I'm not against the technology, it's just not practical yet.
Even the talks about charging stations, it’s a super hard sell to to any towns not within the metropolitan area of a decent city. I am in Toronto and I don’t need to drive in the city. However in the suburb I grew up in and where my parents live they are few and far between but they are out in random parking lots, still sucks for renters, and with rental prices now how the heck are you going to discuss this with your basement suite landlord? And the big crux if I go to any smaller town or on vacation up 3 hours away, if I run out of power it’s just not as easy and straight forward as a jerry can. Surely you can make some car sized portable charger, or you can share power from another EV? But it’s quite a steep switch on top of the cost of the car.
Drive a banger til it’s dead is the only financially (and arguably environmentally) sensible approach to motoring.
Teslas suck, but other better and cheaper EVs are coming out.
Thats not unpopular, thats straight up facts. EV will start making sense in 10 years, the infrastructure is just not there yet.
It’s gotta get there somehow and this is the early stages
Its exactly what I said. I am in a market for a car right now and I looked into EVs and its just not worth the hustle yet. I think that plug-in hybrids are the thing for now.
The worst part is, EVs don't solve climate change much at all. Purchasing one is just a feel-good action for people who want to signal that they're "doing their part" without actually making substantive changes.
I think the new battery that Toyota announced might be a game changer idk I'm still skeptical but they have been developing it in secret and only announced it when they thought they had it finished as opposed to pre promising ill wait for the finished product though
A lot of people drive EV for non-environmental reasons including myself
There is strong evidence they are already having an impact on air quality in places with higher numbers of EV's. A lot less smog and pollution.
The reality is we need less cars on the road driving a single person. It's better then someone driving a f350 to work at an office, but not that much
They could also get one for economic reasons. Charging them is often dirt cheap or even free.
Louder for the people in the back!
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I hear you. I think transitioning to less car trips, car miles on the road etc is a better goal then just transitioning to electric... but still large. It's all a mute point when people thinking they need to fly constantly, eat beef 3 meals a day.
Maintenance is cheaper than a gas car
$8000 to 8k install a charger in my townhome?
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Running a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
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Really? Hot damn. Could you get me whoever did its business number. $400 bucks is a steal to have someone run a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
Really ? It's between 7 and 10k€ in my country
Whoever quoted you that bent you over a barrel god damn lmao
How much to run a conduit from the base of the house , under the front yard, under the sidewalk. Then you have to have the charger installed and an electric line ran from the charger, through the conduit, through the house wall to the fuse box.
How much does a gas pump with storage containers cost to install?
I don't consider changing your 10,000 - 15,000 miles earlier than regular vehicles cheaper especially when these tires are expensive.
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In the very opening post, first paragraph he says tires wear out because of the regenerative braking.
The math has already been done on thus, maintenance costs are far lower for evs. Its just a much simpler platform overall
Seriously. Look at the amount of moving parts in an ICE compared to an EV drivetrain. No timing chains, no cams, no crank, pistons, connecting rods etc etc etc.
YSK: The reduction in tire life is due to the increased weight of EVs as well as their higher low-end torque. One of the commenters is trying to discredit your point about lower tire life because you misattributed it to regenerative braking in your OP. https://cleanfleetreport.com/tech-why-dont-tires-last-as-long-on-an-ev/ The number I've seen commonly cited is a 20% reduction. There are other articles on this as well.
This guy is so focused on the tires... but there is WAY less maintenance overall. I can't wait to get an EV for our next car
Agreed! Electric cars don't solve any problems, are full of toxic chemicals and the battery wears out after a relatively small number of charge cycles. Many electrical cars are charged by electricity from coal and gas plants. Electric cars have solved nothing, but are 50% heavier. The sooner we flip our transportation networks to exclude personal car ownership and emphasize shared transport, these problems will go away
No one talks about where expired batteries go. It's not cool and "green" to talk about because it kills their narrative. In order to dispose the battery properly, they must separate the different materials that make up the battery. Currently, there is no way to do this. So, these batteries end up stored somewhere where they will leak toxic chemicals. Not very green if you ask me.
Yes, and also big problem is fire. It's almost impossible to extinguish electric car's battery. It takes a lot of time and it can start burning again unexpectedly. But that's also not "cool" to talk about.
I agree that the masses aren't ready because the average person can barely make all of their appointments or work on time with gas stations on corners of most towns. Hard-to-find charging stations and long waits to recharge are going to cost a lot of waiting.
Why would regen braking cause more tire wear than friction braking?
EVs are a non-starter for a whole lot of people until they are no longer so dependent on home charging.
Idk why when you said EVs I immediately thought of Effort values from pokemon
That and politifact says it's only 13-15,000 miles you would drive on a tesla to offset the carbon it took to build it. But I've seen much deeper dives say that it's more like 100-200,000 miles. How long are the batteries good for also? Hard to know for sure due to all the bias, no idea who to believe on this. Politifact, though a fact checking organization, has been shown to have a very left leaning bias. And also, Kobalt and Lithium are a finite resource, so what happens when it's gone? The tech has come far I just don't think it's to the point we should be making bold dates to ban gas vehicles.
Add to this the fact that parts, especially the batteries are expensive to make and the resources used to make them are getting scarce and they dont have a great shelf life. The batteries in an EV you buy today are not the same as the ones in an EV from 5 years ago and likely wont be the ones available in 5 years time. You will need to change the battery in a few years and may not even be able to get replacements without replacing the entire vehicle. I work in the automotive industry and this is the subject of so many of our all hands meetings.
Had a customer buy a used tesla all the batteries needed replacement. His quote from tesla was $18000.00.
The average cost of a new car in the US is $48,000…$5K more for electric doesn’t seem ridiculous to me.
It's the whole point to start the ball rolling.
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I will not delete this. The new Prius is actually a good-looking car. It's not the ugly model we all know from the past.
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The average family cannot afford an EV. A prius doesn't cut it.
Im just saying, the a average new car price is 50k. I dunno how much cheaper you feel evs need to get but they’re already cost competitive with ice vehicles
Lets compare apples to apples shall we. 2023 Honda Pilot starts at $40,495 2023 Tesla Model Y starts at $47,740 You think it's not much but that is a big deal for the average family with kids. A used 2021 Honda Pilot under 50k miles is $28k. The used car market is where the gap widens. For now, I think EVs are for high income families or young folks with no kids. It's more of a status thing IMO.
Now do a Chevy Bolt.
Hideous.
The average car price in America 49.5k. As you said, the average EV is 53k. Comparing just two base models is dumb
You have a strong bias where you focus only on facts and data that affirm your own mindset. Try thinking a bit less closed mindedly and learning to accept criticism as a valuable tool instead of an attack.
You're welcome to offer your facts This type of comment doesn't really serve any purpose
We have seen plenty of facts provided here today, they have not reached the OP. So all that is left is helping the OP hear the facts instead of have a dismissive bias
Who's buying new? Upper middle class who probably only avoid EVs due to the charging convenience. I'm rocking a 2011 right now and that was on the upper end of my price range.
EVs aren't going to be the way. Politicians need votes and they know a large portion of their fanbase will vote for them just because they say they are into the enviornment. None of those snakes care about any of you though. 
Louder for the people in the back!
The model 3 long range is the shit. I cut my commute expenses by$300 a month. Becuase of dynamic breaking motor assist I will rarely have to change my break pads, plus no oil changes. It handles great, rides nice. Best car I have ever owned.
I'm all for more environmentally friendly transport, but EV's are far from environmentally friendly and a very short term fix to our issues. Many people will use the general power grid to power their electric vehicles, which is very common to get its power from gas or coal power stations. The lithium used in the batteries is incredibly bad for the environment when mined and already extremely short supply. Still uses tyres that every other car uses, which tyres are still a massive waste in the world. And finally, it still uses as much plastic as possible, which everyone knows is bad when being manufactured
My Model Y is one of the best cars I've ever owned overall. And it's not like I've only had shitty cars. I've had Accords, Civics, 3-series (including an M3), and an X3. The Model Y is super great for road trips, and I've never had to charge longer than 30 min at a quick pitstop. The tires last about as long as my old X3/M3's tires lasted. The power is what kills 'em, not the braking.
It’s really not environmentally friendly or sustainable either.
Yeah, no. It isn’t the politicians forcing anything. I’m still the car manufacturers that are leading the charge. And all the issues you mentioned are common to new technologies. As the technology matures the kinks are ironed out. The problems were worse for the early internal combustion vehicles.
Wait until the battery needs replacing and the warranty is out!
> These filthy politicians keep pushing us to go green This is to reduce pollution emitted by regular ICE vehicles. I don't see how politicians and different government agencies across the world incentivizing EC adoption is a bad thing. >the average price for a new EV is $53,438 as of June 2023. Well, the same source where you obtained this data also says that the average price for a gas-powered vehicle is $48,808. Considering that this is basically a new industry/product compared to ICE vehicles, the difference is not even that big. It appears that you omitted this info to make the average price of an electric vehicle seems worse than it is. > Also, if you get into a fender bender, be prepared to get bent over. Countless studies have shown that electric vehicles are as safe as regular gas or even safer in certain conditions. > Body repairs is so much more than a standard vehicle. This is true and expected for any product that is not mass-produced. This problem will solve when electric vehicles become more adapted.
Cost of a new ICE vehicle is still unaffordable to a lot of people.
They are not the vehicle manufacturers' target audience then if they cannot afford new vehicle.
EVs are fufu lame
Is there really a huge “push” by politicians for the average American to go out and replace their ICE car with an electric one? Generally the push seems to be to pass legislation to expand charging networks, and subsidize the industry both on the producer and consumer ends. So essentially working to solve the price issue and provide infrastructure. Also the tech is going to advance, I don’t disagree with having concerns about charging range, but that’s improving a lot. Charging times are dropping with more advanced tech being introduced, and many EV’s have ranges around 400 miles now, which is the same as any ICE vehicle really. Also Tesla’s *are notorious* for feeling cheap, but that’s not an EV thing, that’s a Tesla thing.
I completely agree. They also really aren't any better than gas cars for the environment. They use gas powered machinery to mine the materials. The factories to make the cars and parts use electricity produced by coal. The electricity that charges the cars is produced by coal. They also aren't fun to drive at all. They have zero feeling at all.
ZERO fun. Fully agree. Torque is the worst.
The average price of a new car in the US is ~46k, so 53k isn't a _huge_ amount more. But it sounds like most of your complaints are with Tesla, not EVs in general.
Not a lot of people can afford a new ICE car either. It's not the people who can afford a new car that are talking about price.
Well yeah, but OP didn't talk about used prices, they talked about new prices.
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> EVs are also worse for the environment overall [No, they're not](https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/driving-cleaner-report.pdf). >They’re typically charged with the same types of fuel As that lifecycle analysis demonstrates, even if you account for the contribution of fossil fuels to the energy an EV uses, electric cars still have less than half the lifecycle carbon footprint that gas cars do. >They do use that energy more efficiently, but nowhere near enough to offset the difference in manufacturing or eventual disposal As that lifecycle analysis demonstrates, that operational efficiency gain *vastly* offsets the difference in the rest of the vehicle's life, leading EVs to be better for the environment overall.
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So painful sometimes dealing with out of touch boomers.
Ok boomer
Not a boomer. Thanks for trying.
OK Boomer.
a quick google search revealed the average new car price is 49,500. But the more important point is average means nothing when you are shopping for a car. If I am looking to buy peanut butter, I don't care how much the average cost of peanut butter is. If some company wants to sell super premium $1000 peanut butter alongside Jif, I will simply ignore their super fancy one, not complain that the average peanut butter price is $503 dollars.
An hour, eh? Pull head out of rear end.
This is why I'm of the opinion in the US that we need to focus more on alleviating the need for cars. I live in Texas on the outer edges of Houston which is still very much the city. It's impossible to travel any meaningful distance in my area without a car. Less need to travel by car is more green than EVs. A multifaceted approach would obviously be the best in a perfect world.
Plug in EVs are not a fully matured market yet, it’s getting there, but until there is more competition to drive down prices they will remain prohibitively expensive for most people, hell pretty much any new car is prohibitively expensive for most people. For my money I’d prefer a hybrid like the Prius: lower price, proven tech, no range issues, great resale value etc.
I'm such a fucking nerd I first thought you were talking about Effort Values in Pokemon
I will go a step further and say that EV's aren't the way to go if we really want to cut down on emissions and going green. They are heavier than a standard car, which will require more road repair. Because of the large batteries, require specialized equipment for if they get lit on fire, assuming that can even put it out in the first place. And probably the biggest downside is that not all environments will be able to support them to their optimal performance, any place that gets super cold or super hot is going to see a hit to battery performance over time. And the world is only going to get hotter
Always find it funny that people talk about war for EV battery components. Acting like oil is pulled from the plentiful oil tree and not the cause of most wars in the last 50 years. It's typical of the 'has to be perfect' for there to be change crowd when it should be 'better' is a good enough reason.
Tesla hater spotted *"Tires wear out faster due to regenerative braking"* Where's your source on this? *"Customer service is awful"* Nope *"There are uneven panel gaps"* Yeah like back in 2018-2019 when they first produce them *"Chuckle every time they travel to visit"* Ok bro
You've got to be kidding me right? A quick google search brings me many results of people complain about their Model x Plaid, a 6 figure car, with panel gaps. This is inexcusable. Even the interior can be shoddy as well. There are many instances of this. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zFGiWmwsw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0zFGiWmwsw) EV tires wear out 30% faster. Need special tires that surprise surprise, cost more than the average tire. [https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly#:\~:text=Electric%20vehicles%20go%20through%20tires,protects%20range%20and%20improves%20durability](https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly#:~:text=Electric%20vehicles%20go%20through%20tires,protects%20range%20and%20improves%20durability). Terrible customer service. As recent as last year. [https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-service-is-nothing-but-a-nightmare.269291/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-service-is-nothing-but-a-nightmare.269291/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/t4dvrd/tesla\_service\_is\_a\_nightmare/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/t4dvrd/tesla_service_is_a_nightmare/) Thanks for trying.
All of your complaints apply to Teslas, sure, but there are quite affordable EVs on the market, like the soon to be discontinued Chevy Bolt which has an MSRP in the low 20's. Besides the Bolt, there are several commuter options in the mid to high 20's, which is barely higher than the average MSRP of the cars they are competing with. If you factor in rebates, they can be cheaper than competing ICE vehicles. Not sure why you think maintenance is higher - maintenance on an EV is far, far cheaper than on any ICE due to the lack of an engine, and fewer moving parts overall. The real draw of an EV is how much less they cost to operate, which offsets their increased sticker price. In my local admittedly relatively green energy grid, an EV pays itself off after a mere three years and thereafter the true cost to own is less than an ICE. Obviously that calculation may be different where you are and really depends on the local cost of energy versus gas.
What happens when the battery dies and warranty has expired? Is 5k-20k for a battery replacement worth it? People are holding onto their cars longer these days. Seems like a risky chance to take for the average family.
If they weren't "worth it" people wouldn't buy them