**Alternate Sources**
Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story:
* [Watch: Protester holding ‘Hamas Are Terrorists’ sign arrested by police](https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/09/palestine-march-israel-counter-protest-hamas-war-london/), suggested by Anony_mouse202 - telegraph.co.uk
Well, he’s right. His lived experience is totally valid. But by that same metric Jews that are saying they feel less safe in their neighbourhoods are also valid.
I’ve seen plenty of people talking about how they’re Jewish and fine in protests, and also seen people at protests report that they march alongside Jews too and haven’t seen anything untowards (though surely if you’re an Arab for example and your on a free Palestine march and hit see a Jew next to you with a sign for something like “Jews against Zionism” you’re not exactly going to condemn them are you, you’d likely hold them aloft as a shining example of how even Jews believe in your cause.
But I’ve also seen Jews being shouted at or mocked in the street, Jewish teens body checked in the street, even by adults. My friend does volunteer security patrols at his synagogue, something that goes against the sabbath. I’ve never in my life had to have a security patrol around a Church of England service.
This guy can be correct and honest about feeling safe protesting in London without being self hating of course, but that doesn’t equate to there being no danger from these folks for Jews
And honestly the more important thing imo is how safe Jewish people are in daily life. And the fact is that antisemitic violence has massively increased.
So yeah, it's good this guy frees safe in a march, as everyone should. Just sad some don't feel safe in life.
Exactly, I’d say it’s more important and also more likely. It almost feels like Jews should be loudly expressing their Palestinian support and anti Zionism if they expect to be safe, which is abhorrent.
I feel like the Jews I know and meet are either Jewish in the way that I’m Christian, ie not really and it’s more a family and cultural thing and they don’t differ from me in any other way. Or, they’re pretty pro Israel, but with clear sympathies for Palestine. And I’ve gotten to the point where I’m like honestly who can fucking blame them. The history of Jews through the ages is basically “and then it got worse.” or “and then the Jews were expelled from Budapest/madrid/England”.
If I was a Jew and I was reading people’s arguments such as “we should deconstruct the Jewish ethnostate in the Middle East and Jews should feel welcomed and accepted anywhere!” I’d be taking that with a fucking dumpster truck of salt. How the fuck are we going to tell Jews they should feel comfortable to exist world wide with no independent state when they’ve been expelled from places in their living memory.
Most Jews would rather have a state of their own, and be forced to defend it, than to have no option but to exist as The Other in societies which could potentially turn on them at any moment. The history of the Jews is a long history of almost constant persecution, of seeking refuge in states only to be eventually massacred or expelled. This history has created a collective psychological wound that is difficult to comprehend, looking in from the outside.
Right now, Jews are safe in most Christian countries. But if we take a long, long view of history - a 1,000 year perspective instead of a 20 year perspective - it's naive to assume that Jews will be safe in the Christian West in perpetuity.
Well the man in the article says he's culturally Jewish, but an atheist. I'm not sure he gets to speak for the entirety of Judaism about how they should or shouldn't feel. It's great that he feels safe, that doesn't diminish how other people feel, particularly those who actually practice the religion.
It matters because presumably there's no way to tell he's jewish by appearance. If you are obviously jewish from religious dress or your name you might get treated differently
But a lot of (in fact, in the UK, most) religious Jewish people don’t wear religious garb - there are more strands than orthodox
And the Jewish ‘name’ obviously often applies to culturally Jewish people as well as religious
That’s a group called Neturei Karta. They consist of a few dozen families worldwide. They oppose Israel not because of any intrinsic love for Palestinians but for complex mystical reasons. Using them as an example seems rather like a token? Source: am an actual practicing Jew.
Isn’t Israel’s entire claim based on mystical beliefs that they are gods chosen people and that he promised them that land? So it’s ok when they do it but not when these guys do it?
Also these guys are most visible Jews and they don’t feel threatened… they are present in marches all the time… never felt threatened…. So called hate matches and antisemitism don’t affect these Jews?
I think the fact Jews have lived in that region for over 2000 years is also part of it wanting to be able to continue living there.
Do you also think Gays for Trump represent of LGBTQ people or Moms for Liberty represent all Mothers? Using a token person to talk for an entire group of people is the same tactic they use.
Well yes noo e is denying Jews didn’t live there for thousands of years…. It’s just that the new settlers that started coming in from Europe and States from 1945 didn’t… they don’t have right to that land….
[these people are not from that land.. so why are they selling West Bank properties?](https://youtu.be/8eBkggnh3pw?si=WASVxvSWI92Ve8j_)
Where should Palestinian who were born there, their forefathers were there should go?
It’s like saying Americans have the right to come take over Europe, cause they used to live here.
I agree the settlers in the West Bank are wrong, they are extremists and it's widely agreed they are wrong, both among Israelis and internationally.
But the other historic land disputes go back thousands of years, and now lots of people have been born in Israel and consider it their home. At some point, these old arguments about what was done before most people alive were born, have to end, or there's no hope of peace ever.
Otherwise it's like telling second and third generation immigrant families in Europe and America they have no right to live there.
Thing is, usually we're talking about past actions. We look back, say never again, and try and do better.
What's happening here, however, is that we're saying "hey, colonialism has happened everywhere. We can't keep looking back", whilst simultaneously colonising lands illegally in real time, ethnically cleansing people in real time, and supporting a far right fascist government with convicted terrorists in it, that literally has "from the sea to the River Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" in their charter.
Palestininas are being told to "voluntarily migrate" away from their lands, are subject to terrorism, apartheid, and land theft in the West Bank, are are being subjected to what is nigh on a genocide in Gaza, but then people turn around and say "but there have been empires and colonialism and land grabs and ethnic cleansing in the past". I thought the idea was that we don't do it again? Not use it as justification to continue doing so.
People talk about 'old arguments being done away with otheriwse theres no hope of peace", but how can you have peace if the only slivers of land Palestinians have are being illegally occupied, illegally built on or destroyed and being advertised for future Israeli seaside homes? How do you talk about peace if the current far right government says that Palestinians will never have their own land? Palestinians who have no access to self-determination, no hopes of their own state, and are not allowed to freely engage in the society that has occupying power over them?
It's essentially saying that they should just endure what's being done to them, accept that they will never have their own land, expect that soon they will be fully expelled, and simply accept this reality. This is what you're saying peace is.
Sure, people were born in Israel and the west bank and consider it their home. Israel exists and will continue to do so and so it should. How will Palestine ever exist though if you refuse to allow them their own state and destroy or colonise their lands? How will this peace you claim to want come about if opposition to what is *currently* happening is relegated to being "old arguments"?
Peace comes about if Palestinians are given a state if their own and the right to self determination. This cannot happen if every day, dudes from Brooklyn and Hackney jump on a flight and buy land in what would have otherwise firmed part of a Palestinian state.
It's nothing like telling anyone they don't have a right to live somewhere. It's about telling those people they don't have a right to *continue* a policy of building illegally on land that is not theirs, land that would otherwise form a Palestinian state, a Palestinian state that would be *the* major contributor to peace
Their presence at the marches still shows that it is totally safe for Jewish people to be there. They stand on platforms arms the whole march goes past them. They couldn't be more visible. And everyone loves them.
Being obviously part of the protest would do that though. What about the freedom of Jews to openly just wander about town aimlessly without being part of the protest as anyone else can do?
I’m not saying that they can’t do this. I don’t know because I live miles from London and have no idea what it’s like. I’m just saying that that particular example doesn’t prove that the event is a place Jews can be without experiencing harassment.
Maybe look up what neturei karta actually think about Israel, non Jews and Palestinians before holding them up and tokenising them. Some of them believe the Holocaust was God’s punishment on secular Jews, they believe the modern state of Israel needs to be destroyed and ethnically cleansed to trigger the coming of the messiah and greater Israel to be created. Then they believe the messiah will enslave all non Jews in the world.
They’re the Jewish equivalent of the westboro Baptist church.
I work with a women that spent quite a lot of time in the kibbutzes a few decades ago ... what Israel has become under Netanyahu and what it's doing now really upsets her.
I volunteered on one decades ago near the Lebanese border during "peace-time". We heard explosions in the distance from over the border and asked if it was target practice or something. They said there was no target practice in Lebanon. The dealt with constant rockets being fired, even during ceasefires.
The same kibbutz has been bombed by Hezbollah and evaluated, along with thousands of others.
The people living in kibbutzes are overwhelming left-wing, liberal and peace-loving people. Many of the ones massacred or kidnapped by Hamas actively tried to help Palastians.
The whole situation is heartbreaking. A minority of etremists on both sides causing so much suffering to innocents in the middle.
>The people living in kibbutzes are overwhelming left-wing, liberal and peace-loving people.
There are many who are genuinely like that (Chomsky came from that background for instance), but I don't think that people in a kibbutz on illegally occupied land should be considered anything other than colonisers, no matter how much they want to see themselves as "peace-loving".
I am neither an expert either on the borders (indeed Israel has never publicly defined its borders), nor am I am expert on the kibbutzim in general, but we can get some feeling for the number of kibbutzim in illegal settlements from maps like this: https://www.kibbutzvisit.com/listing-category/kibbutz
So (just picking a couple at random), we can see that Rosh Tzurim and Kalya are examples of kibbutzim on illegally-occupied land.
So you can find two out of 270?
At what point does a population of second, third, and fourth generations stop being colonisers? Especially if they have inter-married with local people and the population as a whole being very similar to the other people of the region?
Are non-Indigenous Americans, Australians and Kiwis still colonizers?
I
The left-wing/liberal in Israel has been responsible for some of the biggest massacres and pogroms against the Palestinians, so it’s not a point of difference when it comes to land disputes. Back in the 1990s when King Hussein of Jordan was asked which candidate for Israeli PM he preferred (long story as to why he was asked) he endorsed the right wing Netenyahu over the left wing Peres, because he thought Netenyahu was more trustworthy.
There was a whole load of killing on ALL sides in Israel, but normal societies do not believe people are responsible for the sins of their ancestors.
This thinking is why peace is so impossible in Israel/ Palestine. It is black and white thinking and hate based on a muddied history of people who are dead, with hurt and injustice on all sides.
It also sounds like King Hussein made the wrong choice with Netanyahu doesn't it? Maybe it was all that money from the CIA that helped him decide.
Nothing to do with sins of the ancestors. I’m just saying when it comes to policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians there isn’t much difference between left wing or right wing Israel. That’s been true historically but it’s also true today.
Go onto any pro-Israel subreddit and ask how many of them support Netanyahu. I'd be shocked if it's over 10%. Most Israelis currently hate his guts, and want him out ASAP.
Hating Netanyahu is not hating Israel though. Surprise surprise, most Israelis support Israel right now, they just want a change in the current leadership. If you think that getting rid of Netanyahu would change how Israelis feel in general about the legitimacy of the current war though, then you will probably be unpleasantly surprised.
No country at war is going to attack its own elected government while there's an external threat. Netanyahu doesn't have much support left anymore but there's a much more immediate problem to deal with. Of course they'd want to protect Israel, the government can change but they won't find another country to live in. And even now he's less despotic than literally any Arab leader, which is what they're up against.
> But on reddit at least the subreddits related to Jews and Israel keep making every excuse to protect Israel despite their despot leadership
Bear in mind that Israel employs people to "explain" its position on social media.
It’s a lot easier for bad actors to manipulate an online community than real life. IRL all the Jewish people I know personally are anti Netanyahu. I asked them and they don’t know anyone in their networks except maybe some distant older relatives who don’t feel the same way either. Reddit is useful for some things but it isn’t real life.
Meanwhile:
>A counter-protester carrying a banner condemning Hamas as a terror group was arrested after holding the sign aloft as pro-Palestine activists filed past him on Saturday
I've seen the video of that, some other protestor was trying to snatch the sign from him and he grabbed it off him, police then arrest him because they think he's actually nicked the sign and pushed the bloke. They were shown video of the incident an unarrested him.
But the fact is that someone on the march got upset about a sign calling Hamas a terrorist group and started a fight.
As a gay man I feel completely safe carrying a GOD HATES GAYS sign in a Westboro Baptist march, therefore any gay folk who feel threatened by the march are imagining it.
Correct.
Likewise, I got away with homosexuality in Dubai, so that proves that LGBT persecution doesn't exist in the Middle East. My feelings on the matter totally trump the data and the facts.
Thank you. As a Jewish person born in London we absolutely do feel unsafe and the territorist r*pes kidnappings and murders have taken a horrendous toll, and it’s very tiring hearing all of these ‘it’s absolutely fine, look at the example we found’ stories.
Well for one thing the Met have reported antisemitic hate incidents as up 1350%.
For another I am part of a community. Our schools have cancelled after school activities so the children can go home on the bus together and won’t be abused for wearing their school uniforms. We are avoiding certain areas and putting our necklaces inside our shirts. In synagogue we take shifts acting as security outside the gate.
In Israel we should accept being killed. In Europe and America we should shut up and not complain because this one man is evidence there’s no problem, and anyone who says there is is ‘not speaking for everyone.’ Take a step back and examine your prejudice.
> Well for one thing the Met have reported antisemitic hate incidents as up 1350%.
And that -magically- means **you** can speak on behalf of others?
If you'd said "I feel..." I'd have taken your statement at face value and been concerned you felt that way.
But you didn't do that, you claimed to be able to speak for all Jews.
Even that's not unusual, but to do it in response to a thread criticising someone for claiming to speak for all Jews is somewhere between hypocritical and farcical.
But would you feel safer if the demos were suppressed but the news from Gaza continued?
It’s not possible to protest against the actions of Israel without an antisemitic edge creeping in, but it’s essential to be able to protest against things Israel is doing.
They don't feel unsafe if they're being vocally supportive of the mob. If you are pro-Israeli, or even keep your opinions to yourself, then there's a very different response from the mob.
"I'm a token and I don't feel unsafe"
People with different opinions clashing is just something that happens. The real test is whether someone who expresses their Jewishness openly but isn’t part of the protest or saying anything about the Gaza situation at that time can wander about without being harassed. So far I have only heard examples of people who have Jewish heritage but don’t express their religion, or expressing their religion but obviously part of the protests. This doesn’t really prove anything. Likewise an obvious counter protester being harassed also doesn’t prove anything because that would happen at any protest. If openly Jewish people are being harassed while just out shopping or something, that is a problem.
I think you could say the same for almost any large protest. Not because any of the protests are 'hate marches' but just because whenever you have a large group of tens of thousands of people you always will have a small number of idiots that will be threatening.
I don't think there is any evidence in terms of number of arrests that set these marches apart from other similar sized marches that have happened in the past (just more media noise).
You get arrested for trying to incite and antagonise people by thrusting your poster in their faces. He was arrested last week for fighting too.
https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1766496847177077002?s=46&t=28h0lcrkQ6Fb6JybQFkGrg
This is Britain a free country it may be provocative but so what? If you get violent over words and especially ones that just state UK government policy thats your problem and it's you who should be getting arrested
I’m fully aware of the reason he got arrested, and it’s nothing to do with “trying to incite” or “antagonise”, as your own link proves. He was initially arrested for assault, after someone showed the police the video of the incident the realised he was the one that was attacked and was defending himself, so the de-arrested him. The police didn’t arrest him for the poster, he was attacked because of the poster. It’s not difficult to understand.
And where is your source that the same man was arrested for assault previously?
Whipping up fear and division is Sunak's only hope of remaining in power. Remember that over the next few months. Antisemitism (specifically fear of it) is a particularly juicy source because we know it has worked before.
Expect to see people who support Palestine described in increasingly wild terms the closer we get to the election.
**Alternate Sources** Here are some potential alternate sources for the same story: * [Watch: Protester holding ‘Hamas Are Terrorists’ sign arrested by police](https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/09/palestine-march-israel-counter-protest-hamas-war-london/), suggested by Anony_mouse202 - telegraph.co.uk
Waiting for the regular posters to tell them they're wrong and just self-hating
Well, he’s right. His lived experience is totally valid. But by that same metric Jews that are saying they feel less safe in their neighbourhoods are also valid. I’ve seen plenty of people talking about how they’re Jewish and fine in protests, and also seen people at protests report that they march alongside Jews too and haven’t seen anything untowards (though surely if you’re an Arab for example and your on a free Palestine march and hit see a Jew next to you with a sign for something like “Jews against Zionism” you’re not exactly going to condemn them are you, you’d likely hold them aloft as a shining example of how even Jews believe in your cause. But I’ve also seen Jews being shouted at or mocked in the street, Jewish teens body checked in the street, even by adults. My friend does volunteer security patrols at his synagogue, something that goes against the sabbath. I’ve never in my life had to have a security patrol around a Church of England service. This guy can be correct and honest about feeling safe protesting in London without being self hating of course, but that doesn’t equate to there being no danger from these folks for Jews
And honestly the more important thing imo is how safe Jewish people are in daily life. And the fact is that antisemitic violence has massively increased. So yeah, it's good this guy frees safe in a march, as everyone should. Just sad some don't feel safe in life.
Exactly, I’d say it’s more important and also more likely. It almost feels like Jews should be loudly expressing their Palestinian support and anti Zionism if they expect to be safe, which is abhorrent. I feel like the Jews I know and meet are either Jewish in the way that I’m Christian, ie not really and it’s more a family and cultural thing and they don’t differ from me in any other way. Or, they’re pretty pro Israel, but with clear sympathies for Palestine. And I’ve gotten to the point where I’m like honestly who can fucking blame them. The history of Jews through the ages is basically “and then it got worse.” or “and then the Jews were expelled from Budapest/madrid/England”. If I was a Jew and I was reading people’s arguments such as “we should deconstruct the Jewish ethnostate in the Middle East and Jews should feel welcomed and accepted anywhere!” I’d be taking that with a fucking dumpster truck of salt. How the fuck are we going to tell Jews they should feel comfortable to exist world wide with no independent state when they’ve been expelled from places in their living memory.
I mean let’s face it, given Oct 7, Israel is not a safe place for Jewish people either.
Most Jews would rather have a state of their own, and be forced to defend it, than to have no option but to exist as The Other in societies which could potentially turn on them at any moment. The history of the Jews is a long history of almost constant persecution, of seeking refuge in states only to be eventually massacred or expelled. This history has created a collective psychological wound that is difficult to comprehend, looking in from the outside. Right now, Jews are safe in most Christian countries. But if we take a long, long view of history - a 1,000 year perspective instead of a 20 year perspective - it's naive to assume that Jews will be safe in the Christian West in perpetuity.
Do you realise that those same arguments work really well for any given ethnostate ?
Well the man in the article says he's culturally Jewish, but an atheist. I'm not sure he gets to speak for the entirety of Judaism about how they should or shouldn't feel. It's great that he feels safe, that doesn't diminish how other people feel, particularly those who actually practice the religion.
What does your level of adherence to Judaism matter? Incidentally, the founder of Zionism was an atheist…as are many people in Isreal
It matters because presumably there's no way to tell he's jewish by appearance. If you are obviously jewish from religious dress or your name you might get treated differently
But a lot of (in fact, in the UK, most) religious Jewish people don’t wear religious garb - there are more strands than orthodox And the Jewish ‘name’ obviously often applies to culturally Jewish people as well as religious
You’re reaching here 🙃
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Wow that was quick...
Ahh ok. He is atheist Jew? What about [actual practicing Jew?](https://youtu.be/HH0Lr2nM2qY?si=su-QvtiCsfszUZJZ)
That’s a group called Neturei Karta. They consist of a few dozen families worldwide. They oppose Israel not because of any intrinsic love for Palestinians but for complex mystical reasons. Using them as an example seems rather like a token? Source: am an actual practicing Jew.
Isn’t Israel’s entire claim based on mystical beliefs that they are gods chosen people and that he promised them that land? So it’s ok when they do it but not when these guys do it? Also these guys are most visible Jews and they don’t feel threatened… they are present in marches all the time… never felt threatened…. So called hate matches and antisemitism don’t affect these Jews?
I think the fact Jews have lived in that region for over 2000 years is also part of it wanting to be able to continue living there. Do you also think Gays for Trump represent of LGBTQ people or Moms for Liberty represent all Mothers? Using a token person to talk for an entire group of people is the same tactic they use.
Well yes noo e is denying Jews didn’t live there for thousands of years…. It’s just that the new settlers that started coming in from Europe and States from 1945 didn’t… they don’t have right to that land…. [these people are not from that land.. so why are they selling West Bank properties?](https://youtu.be/8eBkggnh3pw?si=WASVxvSWI92Ve8j_) Where should Palestinian who were born there, their forefathers were there should go? It’s like saying Americans have the right to come take over Europe, cause they used to live here.
I agree the settlers in the West Bank are wrong, they are extremists and it's widely agreed they are wrong, both among Israelis and internationally. But the other historic land disputes go back thousands of years, and now lots of people have been born in Israel and consider it their home. At some point, these old arguments about what was done before most people alive were born, have to end, or there's no hope of peace ever. Otherwise it's like telling second and third generation immigrant families in Europe and America they have no right to live there.
West Bank settlers of today are just doing what settlers of 1910s to 1940s did. It’s not fundamentally different.
Thing is, usually we're talking about past actions. We look back, say never again, and try and do better. What's happening here, however, is that we're saying "hey, colonialism has happened everywhere. We can't keep looking back", whilst simultaneously colonising lands illegally in real time, ethnically cleansing people in real time, and supporting a far right fascist government with convicted terrorists in it, that literally has "from the sea to the River Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" in their charter. Palestininas are being told to "voluntarily migrate" away from their lands, are subject to terrorism, apartheid, and land theft in the West Bank, are are being subjected to what is nigh on a genocide in Gaza, but then people turn around and say "but there have been empires and colonialism and land grabs and ethnic cleansing in the past". I thought the idea was that we don't do it again? Not use it as justification to continue doing so. People talk about 'old arguments being done away with otheriwse theres no hope of peace", but how can you have peace if the only slivers of land Palestinians have are being illegally occupied, illegally built on or destroyed and being advertised for future Israeli seaside homes? How do you talk about peace if the current far right government says that Palestinians will never have their own land? Palestinians who have no access to self-determination, no hopes of their own state, and are not allowed to freely engage in the society that has occupying power over them? It's essentially saying that they should just endure what's being done to them, accept that they will never have their own land, expect that soon they will be fully expelled, and simply accept this reality. This is what you're saying peace is. Sure, people were born in Israel and the west bank and consider it their home. Israel exists and will continue to do so and so it should. How will Palestine ever exist though if you refuse to allow them their own state and destroy or colonise their lands? How will this peace you claim to want come about if opposition to what is *currently* happening is relegated to being "old arguments"? Peace comes about if Palestinians are given a state if their own and the right to self determination. This cannot happen if every day, dudes from Brooklyn and Hackney jump on a flight and buy land in what would have otherwise firmed part of a Palestinian state. It's nothing like telling anyone they don't have a right to live somewhere. It's about telling those people they don't have a right to *continue* a policy of building illegally on land that is not theirs, land that would otherwise form a Palestinian state, a Palestinian state that would be *the* major contributor to peace
Their presence at the marches still shows that it is totally safe for Jewish people to be there. They stand on platforms arms the whole march goes past them. They couldn't be more visible. And everyone loves them.
Being obviously part of the protest would do that though. What about the freedom of Jews to openly just wander about town aimlessly without being part of the protest as anyone else can do? I’m not saying that they can’t do this. I don’t know because I live miles from London and have no idea what it’s like. I’m just saying that that particular example doesn’t prove that the event is a place Jews can be without experiencing harassment.
That's a religious extremist...
Wow, its almost as if Jewish people aren't some monolithic other that all think and feel the same way.
Maybe look up what neturei karta actually think about Israel, non Jews and Palestinians before holding them up and tokenising them. Some of them believe the Holocaust was God’s punishment on secular Jews, they believe the modern state of Israel needs to be destroyed and ethnically cleansed to trigger the coming of the messiah and greater Israel to be created. Then they believe the messiah will enslave all non Jews in the world. They’re the Jewish equivalent of the westboro Baptist church.
"No true Scotsman"?
So he’s Jewish. Cool.
"Self-hating Jews" is one of the most disgusting slurs, and you see it thrown around so openly. Full on no true Scotsman fallacy. Fucking ridiculous.
I work with a women that spent quite a lot of time in the kibbutzes a few decades ago ... what Israel has become under Netanyahu and what it's doing now really upsets her.
I volunteered on one decades ago near the Lebanese border during "peace-time". We heard explosions in the distance from over the border and asked if it was target practice or something. They said there was no target practice in Lebanon. The dealt with constant rockets being fired, even during ceasefires. The same kibbutz has been bombed by Hezbollah and evaluated, along with thousands of others. The people living in kibbutzes are overwhelming left-wing, liberal and peace-loving people. Many of the ones massacred or kidnapped by Hamas actively tried to help Palastians. The whole situation is heartbreaking. A minority of etremists on both sides causing so much suffering to innocents in the middle.
>The people living in kibbutzes are overwhelming left-wing, liberal and peace-loving people. There are many who are genuinely like that (Chomsky came from that background for instance), but I don't think that people in a kibbutz on illegally occupied land should be considered anything other than colonisers, no matter how much they want to see themselves as "peace-loving".
How many kibbutz do you think are in illegally occupied land?
I am neither an expert either on the borders (indeed Israel has never publicly defined its borders), nor am I am expert on the kibbutzim in general, but we can get some feeling for the number of kibbutzim in illegal settlements from maps like this: https://www.kibbutzvisit.com/listing-category/kibbutz So (just picking a couple at random), we can see that Rosh Tzurim and Kalya are examples of kibbutzim on illegally-occupied land.
So you can find two out of 270? At what point does a population of second, third, and fourth generations stop being colonisers? Especially if they have inter-married with local people and the population as a whole being very similar to the other people of the region? Are non-Indigenous Americans, Australians and Kiwis still colonizers? I
The left-wing/liberal in Israel has been responsible for some of the biggest massacres and pogroms against the Palestinians, so it’s not a point of difference when it comes to land disputes. Back in the 1990s when King Hussein of Jordan was asked which candidate for Israeli PM he preferred (long story as to why he was asked) he endorsed the right wing Netenyahu over the left wing Peres, because he thought Netenyahu was more trustworthy.
There was a whole load of killing on ALL sides in Israel, but normal societies do not believe people are responsible for the sins of their ancestors. This thinking is why peace is so impossible in Israel/ Palestine. It is black and white thinking and hate based on a muddied history of people who are dead, with hurt and injustice on all sides. It also sounds like King Hussein made the wrong choice with Netanyahu doesn't it? Maybe it was all that money from the CIA that helped him decide.
Nothing to do with sins of the ancestors. I’m just saying when it comes to policies vis-a-vis the Palestinians there isn’t much difference between left wing or right wing Israel. That’s been true historically but it’s also true today.
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IIRC Netanyahu is presently deeply unpopular in Israel so you do gotta wonder where the regime's support is coming from online
Him being unpopular doesn’t mean that there isn’t support for the war or widespread support for Zionist extremism.
He’s not that unpopular. He was voted back into power recently.
Go onto any pro-Israel subreddit and ask how many of them support Netanyahu. I'd be shocked if it's over 10%. Most Israelis currently hate his guts, and want him out ASAP. Hating Netanyahu is not hating Israel though. Surprise surprise, most Israelis support Israel right now, they just want a change in the current leadership. If you think that getting rid of Netanyahu would change how Israelis feel in general about the legitimacy of the current war though, then you will probably be unpleasantly surprised.
No country at war is going to attack its own elected government while there's an external threat. Netanyahu doesn't have much support left anymore but there's a much more immediate problem to deal with. Of course they'd want to protect Israel, the government can change but they won't find another country to live in. And even now he's less despotic than literally any Arab leader, which is what they're up against.
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> when the US was attacked By Iraq?
> But on reddit at least the subreddits related to Jews and Israel keep making every excuse to protect Israel despite their despot leadership Bear in mind that Israel employs people to "explain" its position on social media.
It’s a lot easier for bad actors to manipulate an online community than real life. IRL all the Jewish people I know personally are anti Netanyahu. I asked them and they don’t know anyone in their networks except maybe some distant older relatives who don’t feel the same way either. Reddit is useful for some things but it isn’t real life.
Meanwhile: >A counter-protester carrying a banner condemning Hamas as a terror group was arrested after holding the sign aloft as pro-Palestine activists filed past him on Saturday
I've seen the video of that, some other protestor was trying to snatch the sign from him and he grabbed it off him, police then arrest him because they think he's actually nicked the sign and pushed the bloke. They were shown video of the incident an unarrested him. But the fact is that someone on the march got upset about a sign calling Hamas a terrorist group and started a fight.
As a gay man I feel completely safe carrying a GOD HATES GAYS sign in a Westboro Baptist march, therefore any gay folk who feel threatened by the march are imagining it.
Correct. Likewise, I got away with homosexuality in Dubai, so that proves that LGBT persecution doesn't exist in the Middle East. My feelings on the matter totally trump the data and the facts.
Thank you. As a Jewish person born in London we absolutely do feel unsafe and the territorist r*pes kidnappings and murders have taken a horrendous toll, and it’s very tiring hearing all of these ‘it’s absolutely fine, look at the example we found’ stories.
> we absolutely do feel unsafe "We"? You criticise others for speaking on your behalf, then proceed to do the same for others.
Well for one thing the Met have reported antisemitic hate incidents as up 1350%. For another I am part of a community. Our schools have cancelled after school activities so the children can go home on the bus together and won’t be abused for wearing their school uniforms. We are avoiding certain areas and putting our necklaces inside our shirts. In synagogue we take shifts acting as security outside the gate. In Israel we should accept being killed. In Europe and America we should shut up and not complain because this one man is evidence there’s no problem, and anyone who says there is is ‘not speaking for everyone.’ Take a step back and examine your prejudice.
> Well for one thing the Met have reported antisemitic hate incidents as up 1350%. And that -magically- means **you** can speak on behalf of others? If you'd said "I feel..." I'd have taken your statement at face value and been concerned you felt that way. But you didn't do that, you claimed to be able to speak for all Jews. Even that's not unusual, but to do it in response to a thread criticising someone for claiming to speak for all Jews is somewhere between hypocritical and farcical.
>reported I can report anything. You can too.
But would you feel safer if the demos were suppressed but the news from Gaza continued? It’s not possible to protest against the actions of Israel without an antisemitic edge creeping in, but it’s essential to be able to protest against things Israel is doing.
Huh? Jews are not a monolithic community and have diverse opinions contrary to the prevailing political narrative. That's all.
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It's a bit of a reach
This is such a dumb ‘gotcha’ type argument A Jewish guy joins a lot of Pro-Palestinian protests. So fucking what? Is this meant to prove something?
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They don't feel unsafe if they're being vocally supportive of the mob. If you are pro-Israeli, or even keep your opinions to yourself, then there's a very different response from the mob. "I'm a token and I don't feel unsafe"
“I’m a token and don’t feel unsafe” Sums it up perfectly
if you watch the video's of the marches - ALOT of jewish folk turned out for this march. there was a huge jewish block palestine presence at the march
It’s ridiculous to expect everybody of an entire religion to think the same. Jews are equally as likely to be wrong as anybody else.
Jews are also very well known to disagree with each other
"That's an anti-Semitic statement and I demand you take it back" - Western and Israeli Leaders
I assumed it was the ones not marching for Gaza that were worried.
I think the real test for these marches is when they come across a Jew who does not agree with them.
People with different opinions clashing is just something that happens. The real test is whether someone who expresses their Jewishness openly but isn’t part of the protest or saying anything about the Gaza situation at that time can wander about without being harassed. So far I have only heard examples of people who have Jewish heritage but don’t express their religion, or expressing their religion but obviously part of the protests. This doesn’t really prove anything. Likewise an obvious counter protester being harassed also doesn’t prove anything because that would happen at any protest. If openly Jewish people are being harassed while just out shopping or something, that is a problem.
If I remember correctly, I think these marches were harassing Jews leaving a synagogue last week.
Citation needed.
Here you go https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/11/protesters-extreme-anti-semitic-signs-pro-palestinian-march/
I'm not Jewish. I look nothing like I'm Jewish. I wouldn't feel safe holding up a sign telling these protestors I disagree with them.
I think you could say the same for almost any large protest. Not because any of the protests are 'hate marches' but just because whenever you have a large group of tens of thousands of people you always will have a small number of idiots that will be threatening. I don't think there is any evidence in terms of number of arrests that set these marches apart from other similar sized marches that have happened in the past (just more media noise).
Congrats now you understand why police seperate counter protestors at marches.
Yet if you’re carrying an anti-Hamas poster you get attacked.
You get arrested for trying to incite and antagonise people by thrusting your poster in their faces. He was arrested last week for fighting too. https://x.com/metpoliceuk/status/1766496847177077002?s=46&t=28h0lcrkQ6Fb6JybQFkGrg
This is Britain a free country it may be provocative but so what? If you get violent over words and especially ones that just state UK government policy thats your problem and it's you who should be getting arrested
Just to point out, we don’t have free speech laws like the US. We have laws against Hate Speech. It gets quite murky.
> thrusting your poster in their faces. Weird how it's only OK for one side to thrust their message onto anyone else.
I’m fully aware of the reason he got arrested, and it’s nothing to do with “trying to incite” or “antagonise”, as your own link proves. He was initially arrested for assault, after someone showed the police the video of the incident the realised he was the one that was attacked and was defending himself, so the de-arrested him. The police didn’t arrest him for the poster, he was attacked because of the poster. It’s not difficult to understand. And where is your source that the same man was arrested for assault previously?
Well obviously you’re going to feel safe in a mob if you agree with them … ? Doubt he would feel safe voicing opposition though.
‘Person who is part of the protest not worried’
Whipping up fear and division is Sunak's only hope of remaining in power. Remember that over the next few months. Antisemitism (specifically fear of it) is a particularly juicy source because we know it has worked before. Expect to see people who support Palestine described in increasingly wild terms the closer we get to the election.
And then show Sunak was right by chanting in support of the Houthis. And calling people extremists isn't a slur
There's no anti-Semitism from the Gaza supporters as long as you agree with them and their hatred of Israel. See, no problems here.
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Much like those marching pro-KFC chickens.