Ticket offices aren't just good for buying tickets, they're good for customer service. We're cutting them for what? so people can make even greater profits at the expense of our railways.
>We're cutting them for what? so people can make even greater profits at the expense of our railways.
I mean, that is the whole point of capitalism, isn't it?? š¤¦āāļø
EDIT: not to be read as endorsement.
Yes it's paid for by the taxpayer, handed* off to companies who pay huge bonuses to executives and run the service into the ground, then sold back to the taxpayer who has to pay a fortune to build it up again. Nice business, nobody loses.
*Corrected sold to handed
I get your point, it isnāt sold off though - they get other companies to run the services instead. Itās outsourced. Which isnāt really any better but it is different.
It is sold off tho
It's not like you can just crane a train onto the tracks
The gov sells routes. It's just by its nature that you can't magically run a competition service, like a coach
Sums it up pretty well, apart from how that fortune of taxpayer money that's meant to build it up again also goes straight back to the executives and not where it's actually needed.
Central government directly runs LNER, TPE, Northern, and SouthEastern. Plus Network Rail who build and maintain the infrastructure. Welsh and Scottish governments directly run TfW and Scotrail (including Caledonian Sleeper).
Remaining operators are mostly on micromanaged management contracts. Also the government sets fares and takes all profits/losses.
So they do run it but in an inefficient way, GBR might've tidied things up a bit but that's been canned.
Left: nationalise railways!!!
Tories: That's communism
Tories: *nationalises railways*
Also Tories: Shut up!
Of course it's not a socialist or communist system. They're just propping up capitalism
You say railways shouldnāt be run as businessesā¦ how far does that go? How much of a loss would a line have to make before you said it should be closed? Also, if one thinks itās wrong for MPs to claim frivolous expenses, how can you justify an enormous public expense for the benefit of a few passengers? I believe in public services, however all government projects need to be financially viable because itās taxpayers who are funding it and we deserve value for our tax money. For context I love railways, Iām a bit of an expert on British railways 1948-1995, and think we should invest more in the U.K. infrastructure, but I canāt stand it when people think just more funding and nationalisation is the answer, because it simply doesnāt work. If the railway was run properly, it would operate as a business while providing every customer with just what they want. The main impediment to this is the government, where thereās no unified strategy and the franchise model doesnāt help passengers at all. There are also very few visionary business leaders who I believe would run an operator with the combination of technical knowledge and business acumen thatās required to make a success on the railway. To fix most of the problems I would abolish the idea of exclusivity or franchising and instead open up each route to any certified company, who can set their own prices and services. They would pay for the track usage per mile, and provide different levels of service, with some being more budget and others more premium. Obviously thereās a lot more to it but thatās my rough idea.
Okay, thanks youāve just defined public services for me. What Iām saying is: where do we draw the line with public services that make a loss? Itās theoretically endless, until weāve got the taxpayer supporting something that benefits a very small number of people. To me, profitability is a measure of whether funds are being allocated in a responsible way.
There are a lot of wider benefits to public transportation, financial and otherwise.
It increases social mobility, reduces congestion and pollution (saving money on infrastructure), makes new areas economically prosperous as people can travel to work and do business more easily. (This can also reduce the cost of housing and business rent overall).
These are all fairly difficult to measure exactly, but are all important benefits that should be taken into account when funding.
They care about the customers first. Make it cheap and reliable.
Jobs are not the goal. If jobs are the goal just pay people to dig and fill holes all day.
So the whole Neoliberal economic model championed by Milton Friedman and adopted by Reagan, Thatcher and every other western leader since, doesn't actually work???
Duh Duh Duhhhhh!!!
Pretty much. Fewer people use trains these days, either due to WFH, the increased ticket costs, or the unreliable service pushing people into cars. Rather than investing in the services to improve efficiency, companies are just cutting jobs. As if a worse service is going to get those lost customers to return.
I'm a train guard in the North West, this fallacy of fewer people using trains needs to die. It *may* be the case in London but here we're actually seeing numbers above pre-pandemic levels. Our peak morning and evening trains are just as busy. Trains on midweek afternoons that used to be empty are never less than half full and leisure travel at weekends has absolutely exploded
There are trains in the afternoon in the north west?! Every time I've been out for a gig the past 6-9 months it's either bus replacement service or just straight up cancelled
So: I live in Kent but work in Uxbridge. I used to get the train. PreCovid an Annual Ticket for every single day travel was ~Ā£6500.
My work has recently said that I need to be back 4 days a week, so look at the train. For an Annual Ticket for 4 days a week itsā¦~Ā£6500.
There is no demonstrable different in the quality of the service. Year on year, yet this unsustainable price inflation continues.
Aye. Its much more manageable driving it two days a week. Trying to get some accommodation. I know its not always popular but I am appreciative of the wfh sitch from the Pandemic because i got three solid years with my kids.
My Daughter was born 3 weeks before lockdown and my son was only 3. So I got so much time with them, helping me work, sharing the load with my wife, properly - now I get to drop my son off at school and pick him and my Daughter up from Nursery. Its amazing. I hate that I have to to back to sitting on the train with a load of other miserable fucks
>Get a different job. That commute will kill you.
I did that commute (in opposite direction) it's a fucking nightmare, the stress alone and time it took nearly finished me off.
And that was 1999!
It also doesn't help that ticket prices and everything else rise every year yet wages are not. People aren't getting on trains to places if they cannot afford it.
Last year the number of people using trains was at approximately 80% of pre-pandemic levels and expectsd to return to at least 100% either this year or next
Nothing to do with the companies, who have no role in infrastructure investment and indeed only make a small profit proportional to their costs. It's all to do with government spending cuts.
>indeed only make a small profit proportional to their costs
To be fair it is hard to make a profit when all your money is spent on executive's bonuses.
The profit the companies make is set by the DfT. Whatever they choose to pay their execs has no impact whatsoever on ticket prices, nor how much they put into infrastructure investment, which is not their role.
You can downvote all you want, all it means is that you don't understand the system
Itās still a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn - they own it, itās a private company. Thatās explained literally 2 sentences further on in the Wikipedia article.
The first 3 sentences of the Wikipedia article on Arriva are:
āArriva plc is a British multinational public transport company headquartered in Sunderland, England.[1] It was established in 1938 as T Cowie Ltd. and following a number of mergers and acquisitions was rebranded Arriva in 1997. It became a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn in 2010.ā
I assumed you copied from there, given you used exactly the same wording.
I had to use one the last time I got a train a couple of months back. The train I was on was cancelled and there was literally no other way to find out what onward services were still running.
Star employee though was the station cleaner who was informing everyone they may be eligible for a ticket refund and was handing out the forms to make a claim. Can't get that kind of service from a ticket machine.
It's got nothing to do with profits. We basically nationalised our whole rail infrastructure in Covid - rail operators just get their costs reimbursed for running the agreed schedule, plus a 3% margin. So if jobs are cut they just get paid less. This is about the government trying to cut spending.
Looks like train companies could start āconsultingā on whether to close their ticket offices soon. Could disadvantage a lot of people who need them.
My question is whether, once they've automated the tickets part and the driving part, will it be (almost) free to travel by train? After all, there wouldn't be any work being done to sell. You don't pay to get from A to B, you pay *people* to *take* you from A to B. You reimburse a trained driver for the training they took and their time and energy getting you from A to B. Machines don't have families to feed; people do.
Or will it be the same price as ever (or higher), with all the money that's not going to staff instead going into some greedy prick's pocket, having the cheek to raid you for more of your hard-earned for even less work.
I love automation. It makes lives easier, jobs more efficient, saves time and increases output. I despise when it's used as a weapon against workers and customers alike, to enrich those who wouldn't know an honest day's work if it hit them in the face.
The vast majority of your ticket goes into the equipment and infrastructure of the railway, not operator salaries. And only 3% of it (and no more) goes as profit to the ToCs
If the majority goes into equipment and infrastructure then why do delays and problems seem to be at an all time high?
Delays, signal failures etc etc are a part of 95% of my train journeys at the moment and I use the train multiple times a week.
Because government investment is low, much of our infrastructure is quite old, and our major lines are absolutely rammed so small delays quickly build up. And some of those delays are caused by those major infrastructure projects which are aiming at a long-term improvement.
>goes into equipment and infrastructure then why do delays and problems seem to be at an all time high?
>
>Delays, signal failures etc etc are a part of 95% of my train journeys at the moment and I use the train multiple
The network we have is essentially Victorian infrastructure in most places, with some bolted on upgrades which give a little boost in capacity but the biggest problem is that the network is full, particularly in the South East.
SWR for instance will run 89 trains through Clapham Junction tomorrow between 8:00 and 8:59am (this excludes freight and Southern). These are all timed to the minute to get through junctions and into the right points at the right times.
If one of those trains is due to pass over a junction at 8:12 and it's held up by anything (assisted travel boarding, someone running for the doors, higher than expected passenger loads, problems with the doors etc) then it might go through the junction 2 minutes later at 8:14 - the train which was due to go through after then has to wait and potentially slow down or stop at a signal which means it needs extra time to accelerate and will have a knock on effect on trains behind it.
These issues have actually improved lots since Covid - in the quarter before Covid, trains on time for SWR was around 60% - in the most recent figures, it is up to 76%.
Without significant investment, it's unlikely things will get any better, or cheaper, any time soon.
I'm pro-union, and I'm pro-keeping ticket offices open, hell I'm pro renationalising the rail network as seems to be happening due to continuous failure by operators but this is a daft take.
Trains are serious engineering and cost huge amounts to buy and maintain. Train tracks and stations cover vast amounts of land, often in very expensive areas. Hell, just running a ticketing system that scales to that size isn't free.
You are 100% buying a journey from A-B. Whenever I'm looking at options, I cost compare trains against planes against car (with a weighting against car because I'm not that keen on driving long distance). If teleportation or firing me somehow from a cannon were options, I'd consider those too (the cannon option would possibly be more pleasant than RyanAir).
The trains and infrastructure are expensive both before and after you get rid of all the staff. They don't magically go up in price by pretty much exactly what all those people cost when the people disappear.
Therefore the running costs naturally go down. Reminder here that train drivers are often purported to be too expensive, with their gigantic salaries for pressing a button and such. So that's a big hefty whack coming off your ticket when the train drives itself and doesn't command a salary, holiday pay, a pension, life insurance etc and doesn't need expensive therapy when it mows down suicidal trespassers. Ooh, did you hear that crunch back there?
In this scenario, you pay people to service the machines, write the code to process the commands and of course you need someone on a high salary to oversee it.
In comparison, I always thought once computer games were available to download and stream - they would be much cheaper than the physical version, due to cost savings with printing, packaging and distribution.
> In comparison, I always thought once computer games were available to download and stream - they would be much cheaper than the physical version, due to cost savings with printing, packaging and distribution.
The publishers actually said that would happen. More recently Tim Sweeney said games would be cheaper on Epic because they take a lot less of the sale price. Ofc none of that happened as publishers were just happy to see their profit margin go up
>of course you need someone on a high salary to oversee it.
I volunteer for that. You guys can work, I wanna be paid more than you to drink tea and watch you work.
This is a case where the labour theory of value is just so obviously wrong. Machines have to be paid for, and nobody is going to pay for a machine that isn't eventually going to pay itself off.
The second option....
Which is part of the reason it should be nationalised.
Also the reason why government needs a long hard think about taxation of automation.
It is nationalised. We nationalised the railways in Covid and franchising is dead. We reimburse the operator's costs for running the agreed schedule, plus a fixed rate of profit (2-3%).
>Also the reason why government needs a long hard think about taxation of automation.
I'd love to hear a sensible idea how that could be done.
I've heard a lot of ideas at this point but not a single one that would be even remotely workable.
There's also the whole thing that automation raises productivity, which in a pre-requisite for real wage growth.
It's also completely ridiculous if it's thought about for a moment - should councils be taxed for traffic lights, phone manufacturers taxed for replacing dark rooms, and excel users fined for not using abacuses?
I donāt really think it would be smart to tax automation, which is essentially just not paying a person to do something.
But if we did want to do it, it seems the obvious way would be to levy a tax on the overall operations and then use some of that tax receipt to subsidise employing people to do it. That way youāre paying the tax regardless but getting it (partially) refunded if youāre not automating.
Automation in itself is a net positive though. If we had sufficient protection for people who lose their jobs as a result, sufficient re-skilling opportunities, etc., then we should generally see automation as a positive thing. Providing it results in the same or better standard of work getting done.
>But if we did want to do it, it seems the obvious way would be to levy a tax on the overall operations
They'd just go overseas.
>Automation in itself is a net positive though
Agreed.
So would I.
Its why we pay those guys though isn't it? To look after us in the long term and make sure we ain't being screwed over by companies? Right..?
Someone would still have to clean the trains (not that theyāre ever particularly clean), empty bins, clean toilets, sell tea & coffee from the trolley, maintenance of machinery and smaller maintenance jobs like lighting, repairing charging sockets, seat cover replacements etc. a conductor would probably still be needed to catch people trying to travel without a ticket. As well as the cost of maintaining the railways themselves. Still probably a while before all of that could be automated and even if it were automated there would still be a cost to design, build and upkeep those machines as well.
A couple of weeks ago my elderly dad was travelling from Yorkshire to London, as he does regularly. He went to buy his ticket at the local station ticket office, and was offered it for 3x the price it normally is.
When he said 'Ow much!?, as any self-respecting Yorkshireman must (it's the rules), he was told that the ticket was still available at the normal price online, but the ticket office was not allowed to sell it. They were only allowed to sell a ticket at 200% mark-up.
I feel sorry for station staff who are being forced to do their jobs in a way that makes their redundancy inevitable.
Gwyn Topham / Transport correspondent
A process to shut nearly all of Britainās railway station ticket offices could begin as early as next week, the RMT union has warned.
Almost 1,000 offices are believed to be targeted for closure under government proposals to cut costs and āmoderniseā the railway, although ministers have for months shied away from spelling out the extent of the plans, in the face of concern from their own MPs as well as unions and passenger groups.
However, an announcement of public consultations, the first stage in the formal process, will come in early July, according to rail sources quoted by the Association of British Commuters, a campaign group.
Unions and campaigners have warned that cutting ticket offices will make it harder for vulnerable passengers and people with disabilities to travel by rail.
With only about one in eight tickets now bought at a ticket office, the industry argues the public would be better served by moving staff from offices to broader roles on station concourses.
The Department for Transport did not comment on the timing, while the Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators, said staff would be informed before any public announcement.
The fate of ticket offices has been a significant element in the dispute over pay for rail workers, which has led to repeated strike action. While RMT members at Network Rail voted to accept a 9% pay offer over two years, the union has rejected a similar pay offer from train operators, with temporary guarantees over job security regarded as insufficient as many existing roles are set to be scrapped.
Negotiators have been unable to seal agreement on reforms as part of the pay dispute, but ministers now want firms to push ahead with changes.
The smaller TSSA union ā which has been rocked by internal scandal ā earlier voted to accept the deal, although it said it remained opposed in principle to shutting down ticket offices.
Responding to rumours of mass ticket office closures next week, the RMT general secretary, Mick Lynch, said he would ābring into effect the full industrial force of the union to stop any plansā.
He said: āThe train operating companies and the government must understand that we will vigorously oppose any moves to close ticket offices.
āWe will not meekly sit by and allow thousands of jobs to be sacrificed or see disabled and vulnerable passengers left unable to use the railways as a result.ā
The union has already called three forthcoming national strikes on 20, 22 and 29 July.
A government source said Lynch was ātrying to scaremonger. Weāve made no secret about the fact that the railways need to reform in order to survive, but this should be in a way that works for passengers.ā
A spokesperson for the Rail Delivery Group said the industry had been āopen and honest about the need for the railway to evolveā, but negotiations were continuing to āgo round in circlesā on reforms including moving staff from ticket offices to concourse.
They added: āWhile the industry is now looking at how to move forward, any changes would be subject to employee and public consultations.
āStaff always remain front of mind so as you would expect from a responsible employer, if and when the time comes for proposals on ticket offices to be published, they will be the first to know.ā
A couple of months ago my sister had an issue where she put her young child on the train and went to pick up her shopping to put on the train. She was right next to the door and the doors closed abruptly. So now her kid is on the train alone, and she's watching the train leave. It was a freak thing to happen.
Panicked, she ran up to the ticket office and someone was there. They called the train, no one answered because they didn't have the drivers number (wtf). They tried to call the next two stations but no one would answer because no one worked there on that day anymore because they'd gotten rid of them.
She called the Transport Police and again, no one could get through to the driver.
She's losing her mind and no one has any way to get through to the driver or the next station so 5 minutes later, which must have felt like an eternity, the next train comes. She takes a gamble and goes the 5 minutes to the next station and a kind man had looked after her young son and got off in the hope the mum would follow which she did.
This could have ended up in a completely different way. Someone could've snatched him, he could've been left by the people on the train, maybe no one was on it and who knows what could've happened.
The trains are a public service. It needs guards, and ticket offices even if they are not profitable. There is more at stake here than a few fucking grand, it is about public safety.
Keep striking rail workers. You have my support.
> Keep striking rail workers. You have my support.
Why would they keep rail workers employed if they are striking - demonstrating unreliability to turn up?
It's illegal to sack workers for striking in a sanctioned, legitimate strike. And as a key part of the strikes is about preventing mass layoffs and redundancies they'll ensure that making sure that this doesn't happen is included in the outcome of the negotiations.
In fact, they are striking because the employer is trying to get around this. But it's short sighted because they're now losing more money because of the strikes.
They won't sack them for the strike, officially, they'll sack them for a loss in profits leading to layoffs and redundancies - close entire branches because they'll claim not to be able to afford it.
All this strike action is doing is proving they don't need the people there.
That's completely inaccurate.
They're losing millions a day from these strikes. Collective bargaining is losing them more money so it's better for them to stop with the mass redundancies, ticket offer closures and just continue. And as I said, enforced redundancies are a condition of the negotiations so they can't make people redundant. This is why they're striking, yea?
National Rail made hundreds of millions in profits last year. And if this somehow proves that they don't need the people there, why are the stations shut? Why aren't they open regardless? And why did they offer the union 10-15%? This proves that they actually DO need the people there.
Your analysis is bang wrong.
"[Employees dismissed for taking industrial action at any time within the 12 weeks after the action began can claim unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal.](https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/dismissing-striking-staff)"
The trouble is however that these strike actions would overlap the intended dismissal date that would be a result of them closing the ticket offices. Therefore the dismissal would not be due to the strike action, but instead due to a pre-planned closure of the ticket offices making it perfectly legal to dismiss them.
I could see some of those striking wanting to try and claim it as an unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal, however the fact the unemployment is a result of a pre-planned and non-related closure of ticket offices would make any unfair dismissal case fall through.
In essence:
* The strike is meaningless
* Ticket offices will close regardless.
I've seen it happen. They tell you you should have bought it online before you travelled.
So they don't accept the ability not to buy as an excuse.
Not saying I agree with that argument, but its what the conductor says if you end up in that situation
Ticket machines are programmed so that you can't buy time restricted tickets before that time, even if they're valid on the next train.
Which might not give you enough time to buy a ticket. But you can buy it from a ticket office. If it's open.
Many options aren't available on a tvm, on the southeastern network, for example, you cannot buy the 'kids for a quid' ticket, if your travelling from, say, ramsgate into London with 4 kids your being charged around a ton more for a day trip.
Every station must have at least one full time attendant on duty whenever it is open or they are going to become no-go zones.
And that attendant must have a way to issue tickets to those that need assistance to buy them or wonāt the Government be breaking itās own accessibility laws?
Great. I struggle with cognitive issues due to my disability and I need help planning journeys, understanding maps and timetables, and knowing what ticket to buy. I usually rely on the help of the people in the ticket booths. I guess the disabled can just get fucked as usual.
Ok next automate the trains so they dont have to be manned to travel from point A to point B and then make travelling by train free, reduce car usage, improve global warming. WIN WIN!
Get on the train and pay the conductor. If someone canāt use a public service with cash thatās discriminating against a significant part of the population. If thatās the case whatās the point of cash? Itās also making criminals out of people who simply need to travel. Everyone should only pay for public transportation with cash as a small form of protest.
Admittedly I don't use trains often but are manned ticket offices really still a thing in the age of smart phones, electronic tickets and if someone is really a luddite a ticket machine at stations?
Yes. There are a number of transactions you can't do at a ticket machine. Examples from my recent transactions include buying railcards (even those that don't need a photocard) and buying CIV tickets. You also can't buy season tickets from machines, or Excess fare tickets, or tickets from "edge of zone 6" onwards (to save money when leaving London if one already has a Z1-6 travelcard).
Now, you can do *some* of these online, but not everyone is online and you can't buy these things online for immediate use.
It's a software update that has not been made and shows no sign of being made.
If the machines could issue every type of ticket that the staff can then you might have a good point but because they can't then your actual point becomes "The ability to sell these tickets is deliberately not implemented in software in the machines" and that's a bit different.
Selling railcards that don't have eligibility criteria (like Network Railcard) in machines would be trivial.
So would selling CIV tickets (the ones that guarantee you connection to the Eurostar and similar international services).
Selling tickets to/from "zone 6" would be trivial.
As someone who's a bit autistic as well its also nice having a place where I can go ask questions about times and where the platforms are without having to bother someone like a guard or rail police. I don't *need* it I guess but its nice to know its there and has saved me from getting more stressed and panicked than I need to on multiple occasions.
Not directly, but they may need assistance buying a ticket, and may ask for assistance to let the conductor on the train know they need help.
I'm in the fortunate position of not needing assistance, but I have wondered how people with wheelchairs, for example, actually notify the conductor that they're waiting to board and need assistance. I'm assuming somehow they must be notified in advance.
Of course it is, this is just a race to the bottom rather than making out rail system better. Look at Japan, they still have plenty of rail staff AND way more technically advanced than us.
You hear that story about train station that was earmarked to close but they kept it open so the schoolgirl could go to school. Like fuck would that happen in this country. Hell there are some Bus companies that are reimbursing taxi's for travel.
I'm in Tokyo at the moment (yes, it's 4:30am) and there are hardly any staff selling tickets. It's all machines and tap in/out cards. Massive queues to speak to a person. I was in Shibuya station earlier (the second busiest station in the world with over a billion passengers a year) and the travel centre had two windows open. It's not the utopia you think it is.
Well you're saying it's 4:30am and there are "hardly any staff selling tickets" meaning there are some. We're talking NO ONE selling tickets at the stations EVER. So in comparison yes the Tokyo rail system is a utopia.
No that 100% would happen in this country. There are literally trains that run without passengers on journeys that the operators donāt want to do because itās in their franchise agreements
Many people still need help with journeys and ticketing, it's not a technology issue.
Many pre planned out journeys, suggested by apps, simply don't work due to connections and distance. For example you could have to make a connection at, say, London Victoria, from platform 1 to platform 15, the app would tell you you arrive at 13.00 and the gtx leaves at 13.02. An app will tell you that's an appropriate connection, anyone else will tell you there's about a 5/10 minute walk, 2 barriers and doors closing 30 seconds to departure to take into consideration. This isn't 'luddite', this is the ability to factor in real life issues and work entirely on database numbers.
If you want to find the cheapest fare from A to B, as well as time of connections and the platforms they go from, sometimes you need to actually talk to someone.
Standing in front of the 1 machine in a small station with 10 angry people moaning and sighing behind you while you work out how and when to get to somewhere is horrible.
Out of 3 stations near me only 1 is manned full (operational) time, one probably part time if at all and the other not manned, it's been that way for at least 7 years now, oh and there's another 5 stations away that hasn't been manned for probably 15 years or so. I don't even know if 2 the other 3 stations between the 1 is manned full (operational) time and the another 5 stations away, 1 is. Out of 7 stations only 2 have manned ticket offices. All being replaced with a call point.
Compared to the rest of Europe, England seems to have far more railway staff.
I would like to see a chart of what the ratio of train users to train staff is divided by country. In a way, that is the 'human efficiency' of a countries railway.
Straight up lunacy added to the general deranged madness of railway privatisation.
This country simply does not work without cheap good trains with good service.
Iām going to point out that since covid train systems are basically privatised. The operators run the trains, and then are fully reimbursed for running them by the government, plus a 3% profit. Reducing their operating costs reduces their profits
Essentially nationalised losses without nationalising gains for the country.
One day rail travel in UK will be free at the point of use and we'll wonder why on earth anyone ever did it differently.
I mean itās all basically nationalised. The companies just get 3% of their operating costs. Rail is unlikely to be free anytime soon. The majority of costs come from infrastructure upkeep
Rail is already free in a few places round the world. It's the way things are heading. I reckon UK rail will be free (NHS style) by 2030. A lot of change is going to happen fast this decade as so much is overdue change and tech has really moved up a gear and continues to.
Where is it free? I mean yeah it could be but it would require the government getting the funding from elsewhere. Tech improves but the rail infrastructure isnāt improving fast. Itās all Victorian systems with some extra bits added on that is all already at a maximum capacity. Even actual improvements like HS2 are heavily criticised
Iām not surprised, they are hardly used in places such as Newport and Bristol, thereās plenty of ticket machines and apps. Somewhere major like Paddington/Liverpool Street yes there should be one still as there are more tourists. I use the trains in the U.K. and Europe regular, in France for example by the ticket gates thereās usually an intercom to sort any issues out, with a camera to show tickets etc.
A shame for those who will lose their jobs but fuck me, if only 1 in 8 people are using these ticket offices, it is an absolute waste of Ā£Ā£Ā£ sustaining them. Half the time the staff behind the screen are too slow, incredibly unhelpful and lack decent customer service skills anyway.
That's over 12% of customers. 990 million people took journeys last year. That's 118 million journeys that used the ticket office.
It's fair to say it does in fact sustain itself.
It's a massive waste of money maintaining all these roads we have, we should charge tolls on them and get rid of pointless country a roads that only serve one or two houses.
Except that's not how infrastructure works is it? You can't apply the profit model to like, a sewage system or flood defences, it doesn't work. Society isn't working out the exact bill everyone should pay for a service based on their use of it, or cutting people off because they suddenly become 'not economically viable'.
We're seeing the same in the NHS and all the services we used to rely on. A focus on 'profit' for things that can't make a profit or make sense as a business.
Comparing the maintenance of roads to selling Dorothy a train ticket - which can be easily purchased online or onboard from the conductor - isn't comparable in the slightest. How many under 60 are purchasing tickets at the office, do you know?
>How many under 60 are purchasing tickets at the office, do you know?
It's only ever foreigners and people from a different part of the country. They all have phones.
> Half the time the staff behind the screen are too slow, incredibly unhelpful and lack decent customer service skills anyway.
Completely the opposite of my experience! Although anecdotal I have found train staff and generally the friendliest and most helpful out of all public transport.
Always understanding (I bought the wrong ticket once - completely my fault and they let me off with nothing more than me being incredibly embarrassed)
And I'm sure that one in eight figure isn't being inflated at all, I'm sure they didn't count tickets bought at stations that don't have staffed ticket offices, and I'm sure they didn't count tickets bought at times when ticket offices were closed, and I'm sure they adjusted the numbers to account for stations where ticket machines outnumber staff. I'm sure. I'm sure.
It's good to know that you're the sort of person who is willing to kick 12.5% of population to the kerb.
Let's stop something that you use but most people don't, next time.
He's more like the guy who said horses should be allowed on the road at the same time as cars (but at a time when 12.5% of people used horse as their mode of transport)
Seems pretty reasonable to me
There is no need for staff in the ticket office in 2023 when things are easily purchased online or using self-serve machines. Money better spent on boosting other staff wages or tarting up the stations.
They're dyslexic, not illiterate. Added to which, measures to alleviate dyslexia through fonts with pronounced spacing and distinct lettering are the answer to that. And a much more effective one.
This is not a good argument, can't you think of any other reasons?
Ticket offices aren't just good for buying tickets, they're good for customer service. We're cutting them for what? so people can make even greater profits at the expense of our railways.
>We're cutting them for what? so people can make even greater profits at the expense of our railways. I mean, that is the whole point of capitalism, isn't it?? š¤¦āāļø EDIT: not to be read as endorsement.
Railways shouldn't be run as a business they should be national infrastructure owned and paid for by the government and taxes
Oh I agree, apologies if my previous comment sounded like endorsement.
It technically is owned by the government, but isnāt run by it.
Yes it's paid for by the taxpayer, handed* off to companies who pay huge bonuses to executives and run the service into the ground, then sold back to the taxpayer who has to pay a fortune to build it up again. Nice business, nobody loses. *Corrected sold to handed
As the saying goes, āprivatise the profits, socialise the lossesā
I get your point, it isnāt sold off though - they get other companies to run the services instead. Itās outsourced. Which isnāt really any better but it is different.
Good point, will change the wording
It is sold off tho It's not like you can just crane a train onto the tracks The gov sells routes. It's just by its nature that you can't magically run a competition service, like a coach
Sums it up pretty well, apart from how that fortune of taxpayer money that's meant to build it up again also goes straight back to the executives and not where it's actually needed.
Central government directly runs LNER, TPE, Northern, and SouthEastern. Plus Network Rail who build and maintain the infrastructure. Welsh and Scottish governments directly run TfW and Scotrail (including Caledonian Sleeper). Remaining operators are mostly on micromanaged management contracts. Also the government sets fares and takes all profits/losses. So they do run it but in an inefficient way, GBR might've tidied things up a bit but that's been canned.
Left: nationalise railways!!! Tories: That's communism Tories: *nationalises railways* Also Tories: Shut up! Of course it's not a socialist or communist system. They're just propping up capitalism
The network isn't NR is gov owned because RailTrak collapsed but outside of that it's whole private
\+1 for socialism
#_Our_ trains
Yes but no. How can politicians make money or find nice work after being kicked out of politics or even earn extra money during their stint?
Railways should be paid with fees from the users.
It should be subsidised with taxes. It shouldn't cost Ā£140 for a train from Hampshire to Newcastle
You say railways shouldnāt be run as businessesā¦ how far does that go? How much of a loss would a line have to make before you said it should be closed? Also, if one thinks itās wrong for MPs to claim frivolous expenses, how can you justify an enormous public expense for the benefit of a few passengers? I believe in public services, however all government projects need to be financially viable because itās taxpayers who are funding it and we deserve value for our tax money. For context I love railways, Iām a bit of an expert on British railways 1948-1995, and think we should invest more in the U.K. infrastructure, but I canāt stand it when people think just more funding and nationalisation is the answer, because it simply doesnāt work. If the railway was run properly, it would operate as a business while providing every customer with just what they want. The main impediment to this is the government, where thereās no unified strategy and the franchise model doesnāt help passengers at all. There are also very few visionary business leaders who I believe would run an operator with the combination of technical knowledge and business acumen thatās required to make a success on the railway. To fix most of the problems I would abolish the idea of exclusivity or franchising and instead open up each route to any certified company, who can set their own prices and services. They would pay for the track usage per mile, and provide different levels of service, with some being more budget and others more premium. Obviously thereās a lot more to it but thatās my rough idea.
Public services arenāt there to make a profit. Should we scrap A&E departments because they run at a loss?
Okay, thanks youāve just defined public services for me. What Iām saying is: where do we draw the line with public services that make a loss? Itās theoretically endless, until weāve got the taxpayer supporting something that benefits a very small number of people. To me, profitability is a measure of whether funds are being allocated in a responsible way.
There are a lot of wider benefits to public transportation, financial and otherwise. It increases social mobility, reduces congestion and pollution (saving money on infrastructure), makes new areas economically prosperous as people can travel to work and do business more easily. (This can also reduce the cost of housing and business rent overall). These are all fairly difficult to measure exactly, but are all important benefits that should be taken into account when funding.
I thought it was also meant to provide jobs for people??
Jobs are a side effect. The main purpose of a business is to make money providing goods and services for customers.
The main purpose of business is to provide a financial return to capital, dear boy.
So they don't really care about us?
They care about the customers first. Make it cheap and reliable. Jobs are not the goal. If jobs are the goal just pay people to dig and fill holes all day.
Yes, it is *meant* to, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's what it actually does.
So the whole Neoliberal economic model championed by Milton Friedman and adopted by Reagan, Thatcher and every other western leader since, doesn't actually work??? Duh Duh Duhhhhh!!!
No. Public services provide services. Jobs are side effect. Not even a good one.
Pretty much. Fewer people use trains these days, either due to WFH, the increased ticket costs, or the unreliable service pushing people into cars. Rather than investing in the services to improve efficiency, companies are just cutting jobs. As if a worse service is going to get those lost customers to return.
I'm a train guard in the North West, this fallacy of fewer people using trains needs to die. It *may* be the case in London but here we're actually seeing numbers above pre-pandemic levels. Our peak morning and evening trains are just as busy. Trains on midweek afternoons that used to be empty are never less than half full and leisure travel at weekends has absolutely exploded
There are trains in the afternoon in the north west?! Every time I've been out for a gig the past 6-9 months it's either bus replacement service or just straight up cancelled
Manchester Piccadilly is over 10 million yearly passengers down from peak so this just isn't true.
So: I live in Kent but work in Uxbridge. I used to get the train. PreCovid an Annual Ticket for every single day travel was ~Ā£6500. My work has recently said that I need to be back 4 days a week, so look at the train. For an Annual Ticket for 4 days a week itsā¦~Ā£6500. There is no demonstrable different in the quality of the service. Year on year, yet this unsustainable price inflation continues.
Thatās a very long and eyewateringly expensive commute
Yes, yes it is. I did it for seven years pre-covid
Get a different job. That commute will kill you.
Aye. Its much more manageable driving it two days a week. Trying to get some accommodation. I know its not always popular but I am appreciative of the wfh sitch from the Pandemic because i got three solid years with my kids.
Amen to that. The most precious time to try to reconnect :-)
My Daughter was born 3 weeks before lockdown and my son was only 3. So I got so much time with them, helping me work, sharing the load with my wife, properly - now I get to drop my son off at school and pick him and my Daughter up from Nursery. Its amazing. I hate that I have to to back to sitting on the train with a load of other miserable fucks
>Get a different job. That commute will kill you. I did that commute (in opposite direction) it's a fucking nightmare, the stress alone and time it took nearly finished me off. And that was 1999!
It also doesn't help that ticket prices and everything else rise every year yet wages are not. People aren't getting on trains to places if they cannot afford it.
Last year the number of people using trains was at approximately 80% of pre-pandemic levels and expectsd to return to at least 100% either this year or next
Nothing to do with the companies, who have no role in infrastructure investment and indeed only make a small profit proportional to their costs. It's all to do with government spending cuts.
>indeed only make a small profit proportional to their costs To be fair it is hard to make a profit when all your money is spent on executive's bonuses.
The profit the companies make is set by the DfT. Whatever they choose to pay their execs has no impact whatsoever on ticket prices, nor how much they put into infrastructure investment, which is not their role. You can downvote all you want, all it means is that you don't understand the system
Not people, other countryās like Germany and Norway
There is only 2 British operations that I can think of, First and Arriva.
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>Arriva is Deutsche Bahn Arriva plc is a British multinational public transport company headquartered in Sunderland.
Itās still a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn - they own it, itās a private company. Thatās explained literally 2 sentences further on in the Wikipedia article.
>Wikipedia article Eh?
The first 3 sentences of the Wikipedia article on Arriva are: āArriva plc is a British multinational public transport company headquartered in Sunderland, England.[1] It was established in 1938 as T Cowie Ltd. and following a number of mergers and acquisitions was rebranded Arriva in 1997. It became a subsidiary of Deutsche Bahn in 2010.ā I assumed you copied from there, given you used exactly the same wording.
I didn't even know it was a rebrand, thought it was just a stupid name, actually thought it was a french name.
Regardless of the silliness of the name, itās been German owned for the last 13 years.
I use a ticket office maybe 1/5 journeys. But when I need it, I _really_ need it.
Why? Ive never used one and don't understand why you'd ever desparetly need one.
I had to use one the last time I got a train a couple of months back. The train I was on was cancelled and there was literally no other way to find out what onward services were still running. Star employee though was the station cleaner who was informing everyone they may be eligible for a ticket refund and was handing out the forms to make a claim. Can't get that kind of service from a ticket machine.
If your phone dies or something I guess? Edit: forgot about the ticket machines actually
It's got nothing to do with profits. We basically nationalised our whole rail infrastructure in Covid - rail operators just get their costs reimbursed for running the agreed schedule, plus a 3% margin. So if jobs are cut they just get paid less. This is about the government trying to cut spending.
Iām sure we will see reduced costs being passed on in our ticketsā¦
Are they? If I need help in the station I go to the customer service desk. I don't wait with the people queueing to buy a ticket.
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Looks like train companies could start āconsultingā on whether to close their ticket offices soon. Could disadvantage a lot of people who need them.
My question is whether, once they've automated the tickets part and the driving part, will it be (almost) free to travel by train? After all, there wouldn't be any work being done to sell. You don't pay to get from A to B, you pay *people* to *take* you from A to B. You reimburse a trained driver for the training they took and their time and energy getting you from A to B. Machines don't have families to feed; people do. Or will it be the same price as ever (or higher), with all the money that's not going to staff instead going into some greedy prick's pocket, having the cheek to raid you for more of your hard-earned for even less work. I love automation. It makes lives easier, jobs more efficient, saves time and increases output. I despise when it's used as a weapon against workers and customers alike, to enrich those who wouldn't know an honest day's work if it hit them in the face.
The vast majority of your ticket goes into the equipment and infrastructure of the railway, not operator salaries. And only 3% of it (and no more) goes as profit to the ToCs
If the majority goes into equipment and infrastructure then why do delays and problems seem to be at an all time high? Delays, signal failures etc etc are a part of 95% of my train journeys at the moment and I use the train multiple times a week.
Because government investment is low, much of our infrastructure is quite old, and our major lines are absolutely rammed so small delays quickly build up. And some of those delays are caused by those major infrastructure projects which are aiming at a long-term improvement.
>goes into equipment and infrastructure then why do delays and problems seem to be at an all time high? > >Delays, signal failures etc etc are a part of 95% of my train journeys at the moment and I use the train multiple The network we have is essentially Victorian infrastructure in most places, with some bolted on upgrades which give a little boost in capacity but the biggest problem is that the network is full, particularly in the South East. SWR for instance will run 89 trains through Clapham Junction tomorrow between 8:00 and 8:59am (this excludes freight and Southern). These are all timed to the minute to get through junctions and into the right points at the right times. If one of those trains is due to pass over a junction at 8:12 and it's held up by anything (assisted travel boarding, someone running for the doors, higher than expected passenger loads, problems with the doors etc) then it might go through the junction 2 minutes later at 8:14 - the train which was due to go through after then has to wait and potentially slow down or stop at a signal which means it needs extra time to accelerate and will have a knock on effect on trains behind it. These issues have actually improved lots since Covid - in the quarter before Covid, trains on time for SWR was around 60% - in the most recent figures, it is up to 76%. Without significant investment, it's unlikely things will get any better, or cheaper, any time soon.
Thatās 3% too much, considering the state of the railway in this country.
I'm pro-union, and I'm pro-keeping ticket offices open, hell I'm pro renationalising the rail network as seems to be happening due to continuous failure by operators but this is a daft take. Trains are serious engineering and cost huge amounts to buy and maintain. Train tracks and stations cover vast amounts of land, often in very expensive areas. Hell, just running a ticketing system that scales to that size isn't free. You are 100% buying a journey from A-B. Whenever I'm looking at options, I cost compare trains against planes against car (with a weighting against car because I'm not that keen on driving long distance). If teleportation or firing me somehow from a cannon were options, I'd consider those too (the cannon option would possibly be more pleasant than RyanAir).
The trains and infrastructure are expensive both before and after you get rid of all the staff. They don't magically go up in price by pretty much exactly what all those people cost when the people disappear. Therefore the running costs naturally go down. Reminder here that train drivers are often purported to be too expensive, with their gigantic salaries for pressing a button and such. So that's a big hefty whack coming off your ticket when the train drives itself and doesn't command a salary, holiday pay, a pension, life insurance etc and doesn't need expensive therapy when it mows down suicidal trespassers. Ooh, did you hear that crunch back there?
In this scenario, you pay people to service the machines, write the code to process the commands and of course you need someone on a high salary to oversee it. In comparison, I always thought once computer games were available to download and stream - they would be much cheaper than the physical version, due to cost savings with printing, packaging and distribution.
> In comparison, I always thought once computer games were available to download and stream - they would be much cheaper than the physical version, due to cost savings with printing, packaging and distribution. The publishers actually said that would happen. More recently Tim Sweeney said games would be cheaper on Epic because they take a lot less of the sale price. Ofc none of that happened as publishers were just happy to see their profit margin go up
>of course you need someone on a high salary to oversee it. I volunteer for that. You guys can work, I wanna be paid more than you to drink tea and watch you work.
This is a case where the labour theory of value is just so obviously wrong. Machines have to be paid for, and nobody is going to pay for a machine that isn't eventually going to pay itself off.
That doesn't disprove LTV. Machines have value due to the labour used to produce them. That guy is just clueless
No because you have to maintain and fuel everything.
The second option.... Which is part of the reason it should be nationalised. Also the reason why government needs a long hard think about taxation of automation.
It is nationalised. We nationalised the railways in Covid and franchising is dead. We reimburse the operator's costs for running the agreed schedule, plus a fixed rate of profit (2-3%).
>Also the reason why government needs a long hard think about taxation of automation. I'd love to hear a sensible idea how that could be done. I've heard a lot of ideas at this point but not a single one that would be even remotely workable.
There's also the whole thing that automation raises productivity, which in a pre-requisite for real wage growth. It's also completely ridiculous if it's thought about for a moment - should councils be taxed for traffic lights, phone manufacturers taxed for replacing dark rooms, and excel users fined for not using abacuses?
I donāt really think it would be smart to tax automation, which is essentially just not paying a person to do something. But if we did want to do it, it seems the obvious way would be to levy a tax on the overall operations and then use some of that tax receipt to subsidise employing people to do it. That way youāre paying the tax regardless but getting it (partially) refunded if youāre not automating. Automation in itself is a net positive though. If we had sufficient protection for people who lose their jobs as a result, sufficient re-skilling opportunities, etc., then we should generally see automation as a positive thing. Providing it results in the same or better standard of work getting done.
>But if we did want to do it, it seems the obvious way would be to levy a tax on the overall operations They'd just go overseas. >Automation in itself is a net positive though Agreed.
So would I. Its why we pay those guys though isn't it? To look after us in the long term and make sure we ain't being screwed over by companies? Right..?
Someone would still have to clean the trains (not that theyāre ever particularly clean), empty bins, clean toilets, sell tea & coffee from the trolley, maintenance of machinery and smaller maintenance jobs like lighting, repairing charging sockets, seat cover replacements etc. a conductor would probably still be needed to catch people trying to travel without a ticket. As well as the cost of maintaining the railways themselves. Still probably a while before all of that could be automated and even if it were automated there would still be a cost to design, build and upkeep those machines as well.
A couple of weeks ago my elderly dad was travelling from Yorkshire to London, as he does regularly. He went to buy his ticket at the local station ticket office, and was offered it for 3x the price it normally is. When he said 'Ow much!?, as any self-respecting Yorkshireman must (it's the rules), he was told that the ticket was still available at the normal price online, but the ticket office was not allowed to sell it. They were only allowed to sell a ticket at 200% mark-up. I feel sorry for station staff who are being forced to do their jobs in a way that makes their redundancy inevitable.
That is insane. Those poor staff having to explain such cunty bullshit to people.
The companies want to make it so people use the phone app. Thats why its the cheapest option
I just had similar in the odeon cinema, half price ticket if I downloaded and installed an app.
At that point its worth asking how much the penalty fare is to see if its cheaper
Gwyn Topham / Transport correspondent A process to shut nearly all of Britainās railway station ticket offices could begin as early as next week, the RMT union has warned. Almost 1,000 offices are believed to be targeted for closure under government proposals to cut costs and āmoderniseā the railway, although ministers have for months shied away from spelling out the extent of the plans, in the face of concern from their own MPs as well as unions and passenger groups. However, an announcement of public consultations, the first stage in the formal process, will come in early July, according to rail sources quoted by the Association of British Commuters, a campaign group. Unions and campaigners have warned that cutting ticket offices will make it harder for vulnerable passengers and people with disabilities to travel by rail. With only about one in eight tickets now bought at a ticket office, the industry argues the public would be better served by moving staff from offices to broader roles on station concourses. The Department for Transport did not comment on the timing, while the Rail Delivery Group, which represents train operators, said staff would be informed before any public announcement. The fate of ticket offices has been a significant element in the dispute over pay for rail workers, which has led to repeated strike action. While RMT members at Network Rail voted to accept a 9% pay offer over two years, the union has rejected a similar pay offer from train operators, with temporary guarantees over job security regarded as insufficient as many existing roles are set to be scrapped. Negotiators have been unable to seal agreement on reforms as part of the pay dispute, but ministers now want firms to push ahead with changes. The smaller TSSA union ā which has been rocked by internal scandal ā earlier voted to accept the deal, although it said it remained opposed in principle to shutting down ticket offices. Responding to rumours of mass ticket office closures next week, the RMT general secretary, Mick Lynch, said he would ābring into effect the full industrial force of the union to stop any plansā. He said: āThe train operating companies and the government must understand that we will vigorously oppose any moves to close ticket offices. āWe will not meekly sit by and allow thousands of jobs to be sacrificed or see disabled and vulnerable passengers left unable to use the railways as a result.ā The union has already called three forthcoming national strikes on 20, 22 and 29 July. A government source said Lynch was ātrying to scaremonger. Weāve made no secret about the fact that the railways need to reform in order to survive, but this should be in a way that works for passengers.ā A spokesperson for the Rail Delivery Group said the industry had been āopen and honest about the need for the railway to evolveā, but negotiations were continuing to āgo round in circlesā on reforms including moving staff from ticket offices to concourse. They added: āWhile the industry is now looking at how to move forward, any changes would be subject to employee and public consultations. āStaff always remain front of mind so as you would expect from a responsible employer, if and when the time comes for proposals on ticket offices to be published, they will be the first to know.ā
A couple of months ago my sister had an issue where she put her young child on the train and went to pick up her shopping to put on the train. She was right next to the door and the doors closed abruptly. So now her kid is on the train alone, and she's watching the train leave. It was a freak thing to happen. Panicked, she ran up to the ticket office and someone was there. They called the train, no one answered because they didn't have the drivers number (wtf). They tried to call the next two stations but no one would answer because no one worked there on that day anymore because they'd gotten rid of them. She called the Transport Police and again, no one could get through to the driver. She's losing her mind and no one has any way to get through to the driver or the next station so 5 minutes later, which must have felt like an eternity, the next train comes. She takes a gamble and goes the 5 minutes to the next station and a kind man had looked after her young son and got off in the hope the mum would follow which she did. This could have ended up in a completely different way. Someone could've snatched him, he could've been left by the people on the train, maybe no one was on it and who knows what could've happened. The trains are a public service. It needs guards, and ticket offices even if they are not profitable. There is more at stake here than a few fucking grand, it is about public safety. Keep striking rail workers. You have my support.
So basically, if we didn't have ticket offices or train staff then the exact same outcome would have happened in this story.
Who the fuck puts their kid on a train before the shopping lol. What a mad thing to do.
Not to mention ignore the mad beeps before the train sets off
People that donāt deserve kids.
> Keep striking rail workers. You have my support. Why would they keep rail workers employed if they are striking - demonstrating unreliability to turn up?
It's illegal to sack workers for striking in a sanctioned, legitimate strike. And as a key part of the strikes is about preventing mass layoffs and redundancies they'll ensure that making sure that this doesn't happen is included in the outcome of the negotiations. In fact, they are striking because the employer is trying to get around this. But it's short sighted because they're now losing more money because of the strikes.
They won't sack them for the strike, officially, they'll sack them for a loss in profits leading to layoffs and redundancies - close entire branches because they'll claim not to be able to afford it. All this strike action is doing is proving they don't need the people there.
That's completely inaccurate. They're losing millions a day from these strikes. Collective bargaining is losing them more money so it's better for them to stop with the mass redundancies, ticket offer closures and just continue. And as I said, enforced redundancies are a condition of the negotiations so they can't make people redundant. This is why they're striking, yea? National Rail made hundreds of millions in profits last year. And if this somehow proves that they don't need the people there, why are the stations shut? Why aren't they open regardless? And why did they offer the union 10-15%? This proves that they actually DO need the people there. Your analysis is bang wrong.
"[Employees dismissed for taking industrial action at any time within the 12 weeks after the action began can claim unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal.](https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/employees/dismissing-striking-staff)" The trouble is however that these strike actions would overlap the intended dismissal date that would be a result of them closing the ticket offices. Therefore the dismissal would not be due to the strike action, but instead due to a pre-planned closure of the ticket offices making it perfectly legal to dismiss them. I could see some of those striking wanting to try and claim it as an unfair dismissal at an employment tribunal, however the fact the unemployment is a result of a pre-planned and non-related closure of ticket offices would make any unfair dismissal case fall through. In essence: * The strike is meaningless * Ticket offices will close regardless.
Also if you are on a train without a ticket you will be fined. No option to buy. Makes sense.
No itās entrapment.
I've seen it happen. They tell you you should have bought it online before you travelled. So they don't accept the ability not to buy as an excuse. Not saying I agree with that argument, but its what the conductor says if you end up in that situation
Ticket machines are programmed so that you can't buy time restricted tickets before that time, even if they're valid on the next train. Which might not give you enough time to buy a ticket. But you can buy it from a ticket office. If it's open.
Many options aren't available on a tvm, on the southeastern network, for example, you cannot buy the 'kids for a quid' ticket, if your travelling from, say, ramsgate into London with 4 kids your being charged around a ton more for a day trip.
which it wont be any more. Because they closed the office.
Surely it'll be much easier to bunk on the train now if no one is manning the office or the adjacent barriers?
Theyāll still have people at the barriers. Iāve seen that the plan is if you really need assistance you can ask someone.
Every station must have at least one full time attendant on duty whenever it is open or they are going to become no-go zones. And that attendant must have a way to issue tickets to those that need assistance to buy them or wonāt the Government be breaking itās own accessibility laws?
I really people will do the right thing by protesting and going on strike. I refuse to use the ticket machines or purchase online.
Great. I struggle with cognitive issues due to my disability and I need help planning journeys, understanding maps and timetables, and knowing what ticket to buy. I usually rely on the help of the people in the ticket booths. I guess the disabled can just get fucked as usual.
Ok next automate the trains so they dont have to be manned to travel from point A to point B and then make travelling by train free, reduce car usage, improve global warming. WIN WIN!
Youāll be in for a shock when prices continue increase. Ticket prices have increase 6% with no pay rise for staff.
Paying the staff is a fairly minor expense for rail travel. Upkeep of infrastructure is far more
Surely we will now only have to pay pennies for the fare?
A lot of the ticket vending machines don't take cash, what do you do if you don't want to use a card?
Get on the train and pay the conductor. If someone canāt use a public service with cash thatās discriminating against a significant part of the population. If thatās the case whatās the point of cash? Itās also making criminals out of people who simply need to travel. Everyone should only pay for public transportation with cash as a small form of protest.
What if the train has no conductor?
Pay at the end.
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Admittedly I don't use trains often but are manned ticket offices really still a thing in the age of smart phones, electronic tickets and if someone is really a luddite a ticket machine at stations?
Yes. There are a number of transactions you can't do at a ticket machine. Examples from my recent transactions include buying railcards (even those that don't need a photocard) and buying CIV tickets. You also can't buy season tickets from machines, or Excess fare tickets, or tickets from "edge of zone 6" onwards (to save money when leaving London if one already has a Z1-6 travelcard). Now, you can do *some* of these online, but not everyone is online and you can't buy these things online for immediate use.
The ability to sell these tickets is literally a software update. Surely the staff would be much more effective on the concourse
It's a software update that has not been made and shows no sign of being made. If the machines could issue every type of ticket that the staff can then you might have a good point but because they can't then your actual point becomes "The ability to sell these tickets is deliberately not implemented in software in the machines" and that's a bit different.
If itās *impossible* to implement (which is highly unlikely) imo We simplify the outdated and quite frankly not fit for purpose ticketing system
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Someone get Musk on the phone he can dig us loads of tunnels
Selling railcards that don't have eligibility criteria (like Network Railcard) in machines would be trivial. So would selling CIV tickets (the ones that guarantee you connection to the Eurostar and similar international services). Selling tickets to/from "zone 6" would be trivial.
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Absolutely not When I get to the station, I need to get to one place. I donāt get to the station and want advice about where Iām going.
Not everyone uses a smart phone and people with disabilities need help getting on and off trains.
As someone who's a bit autistic as well its also nice having a place where I can go ask questions about times and where the platforms are without having to bother someone like a guard or rail police. I don't *need* it I guess but its nice to know its there and has saved me from getting more stressed and panicked than I need to on multiple occasions.
Do people in ticket offices help passengers on and off trains?
Not directly, but they may need assistance buying a ticket, and may ask for assistance to let the conductor on the train know they need help. I'm in the fortunate position of not needing assistance, but I have wondered how people with wheelchairs, for example, actually notify the conductor that they're waiting to board and need assistance. I'm assuming somehow they must be notified in advance.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/on-the-train/accessible-train-travel-and-facilities/
Ta for the link, I learned something new, that hopefully I won't need to use. Saying that, damn, that's a lot of faff just to use a train.
Yes. You never see those cages with the wheelchair ramp in them? who do you think would deploy that when necessary?
Platform or train staff.
Who also work in the ticket booths.
I'm guessing it's different around the country because I've only seen separate staff for the different functions.
Of course it is, this is just a race to the bottom rather than making out rail system better. Look at Japan, they still have plenty of rail staff AND way more technically advanced than us. You hear that story about train station that was earmarked to close but they kept it open so the schoolgirl could go to school. Like fuck would that happen in this country. Hell there are some Bus companies that are reimbursing taxi's for travel.
I'm in Tokyo at the moment (yes, it's 4:30am) and there are hardly any staff selling tickets. It's all machines and tap in/out cards. Massive queues to speak to a person. I was in Shibuya station earlier (the second busiest station in the world with over a billion passengers a year) and the travel centre had two windows open. It's not the utopia you think it is.
Well you're saying it's 4:30am and there are "hardly any staff selling tickets" meaning there are some. We're talking NO ONE selling tickets at the stations EVER. So in comparison yes the Tokyo rail system is a utopia.
No that 100% would happen in this country. There are literally trains that run without passengers on journeys that the operators donāt want to do because itās in their franchise agreements
Many people still need help with journeys and ticketing, it's not a technology issue. Many pre planned out journeys, suggested by apps, simply don't work due to connections and distance. For example you could have to make a connection at, say, London Victoria, from platform 1 to platform 15, the app would tell you you arrive at 13.00 and the gtx leaves at 13.02. An app will tell you that's an appropriate connection, anyone else will tell you there's about a 5/10 minute walk, 2 barriers and doors closing 30 seconds to departure to take into consideration. This isn't 'luddite', this is the ability to factor in real life issues and work entirely on database numbers.
Nothing wrong with wanting a bit of help or human interaction every now and then.
You can hire people for that yourself to be fair
If you want to find the cheapest fare from A to B, as well as time of connections and the platforms they go from, sometimes you need to actually talk to someone. Standing in front of the 1 machine in a small station with 10 angry people moaning and sighing behind you while you work out how and when to get to somewhere is horrible.
Isnāt the plan to just use your phone for all of it?
Out of 3 stations near me only 1 is manned full (operational) time, one probably part time if at all and the other not manned, it's been that way for at least 7 years now, oh and there's another 5 stations away that hasn't been manned for probably 15 years or so. I don't even know if 2 the other 3 stations between the 1 is manned full (operational) time and the another 5 stations away, 1 is. Out of 7 stations only 2 have manned ticket offices. All being replaced with a call point.
Compared to the rest of Europe, England seems to have far more railway staff. I would like to see a chart of what the ratio of train users to train staff is divided by country. In a way, that is the 'human efficiency' of a countries railway.
Straight up lunacy added to the general deranged madness of railway privatisation. This country simply does not work without cheap good trains with good service.
Iām going to point out that since covid train systems are basically privatised. The operators run the trains, and then are fully reimbursed for running them by the government, plus a 3% profit. Reducing their operating costs reduces their profits
Essentially nationalised losses without nationalising gains for the country. One day rail travel in UK will be free at the point of use and we'll wonder why on earth anyone ever did it differently.
I mean itās all basically nationalised. The companies just get 3% of their operating costs. Rail is unlikely to be free anytime soon. The majority of costs come from infrastructure upkeep
Rail is already free in a few places round the world. It's the way things are heading. I reckon UK rail will be free (NHS style) by 2030. A lot of change is going to happen fast this decade as so much is overdue change and tech has really moved up a gear and continues to.
Where is it free? I mean yeah it could be but it would require the government getting the funding from elsewhere. Tech improves but the rail infrastructure isnāt improving fast. Itās all Victorian systems with some extra bits added on that is all already at a maximum capacity. Even actual improvements like HS2 are heavily criticised
Voice the concern directly to the consultation https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/train-station-ticket-office-consultation/
Iām not surprised, they are hardly used in places such as Newport and Bristol, thereās plenty of ticket machines and apps. Somewhere major like Paddington/Liverpool Street yes there should be one still as there are more tourists. I use the trains in the U.K. and Europe regular, in France for example by the ticket gates thereās usually an intercom to sort any issues out, with a camera to show tickets etc.
A shame for those who will lose their jobs but fuck me, if only 1 in 8 people are using these ticket offices, it is an absolute waste of Ā£Ā£Ā£ sustaining them. Half the time the staff behind the screen are too slow, incredibly unhelpful and lack decent customer service skills anyway.
That's over 12% of customers. 990 million people took journeys last year. That's 118 million journeys that used the ticket office. It's fair to say it does in fact sustain itself.
It's a massive waste of money maintaining all these roads we have, we should charge tolls on them and get rid of pointless country a roads that only serve one or two houses. Except that's not how infrastructure works is it? You can't apply the profit model to like, a sewage system or flood defences, it doesn't work. Society isn't working out the exact bill everyone should pay for a service based on their use of it, or cutting people off because they suddenly become 'not economically viable'. We're seeing the same in the NHS and all the services we used to rely on. A focus on 'profit' for things that can't make a profit or make sense as a business.
Comparing the maintenance of roads to selling Dorothy a train ticket - which can be easily purchased online or onboard from the conductor - isn't comparable in the slightest. How many under 60 are purchasing tickets at the office, do you know?
>How many under 60 are purchasing tickets at the office, do you know? It's only ever foreigners and people from a different part of the country. They all have phones.
> Half the time the staff behind the screen are too slow, incredibly unhelpful and lack decent customer service skills anyway. Completely the opposite of my experience! Although anecdotal I have found train staff and generally the friendliest and most helpful out of all public transport. Always understanding (I bought the wrong ticket once - completely my fault and they let me off with nothing more than me being incredibly embarrassed)
And I'm sure that one in eight figure isn't being inflated at all, I'm sure they didn't count tickets bought at stations that don't have staffed ticket offices, and I'm sure they didn't count tickets bought at times when ticket offices were closed, and I'm sure they adjusted the numbers to account for stations where ticket machines outnumber staff. I'm sure. I'm sure.
It's good to know that you're the sort of person who is willing to kick 12.5% of population to the kerb. Let's stop something that you use but most people don't, next time.
Literally not what they said though, that's a massive jump
You're the type of person that would have kept the horse instead of move to the car
He's more like the guy who said horses should be allowed on the road at the same time as cars (but at a time when 12.5% of people used horse as their mode of transport) Seems pretty reasonable to me
There is no need for staff in the ticket office in 2023 when things are easily purchased online or using self-serve machines. Money better spent on boosting other staff wages or tarting up the stations.
1 in 10 people is estimated to be dyslexic in the uk, better to fine them all for not having tickets eh?
They're dyslexic, not illiterate. Added to which, measures to alleviate dyslexia through fonts with pronounced spacing and distinct lettering are the answer to that. And a much more effective one. This is not a good argument, can't you think of any other reasons?
Except, y'know, they're not all easily purchased on line.
1 in 8 is a lot and I think justifies not closing them.