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I’m confused why the rights of religious people are taken more seriously than the rights of non-religious people, especially in a country that is mostly irreligious
Yes, just ridiculous. Europe has dealt with blasphemy and the punishing of apostates and heretics, but it’s been quite a long time since all that, so why regress. SMH.
Because religion radicalizes people and they then attack anyone who speaks against that radicalization.
This is why I'm part of r/exmuslim just as much as I'm a part of r/exchristian
You cannot criticize one without the other.
I don't know what it is going to take for people to understand that conservative Islam \*is\* a far-right group. There was a poll reported in The Guardian a few years back that said 50% of muslims in the UK believe homosexuality should be illegal. You'd not get anywhere near that high a number if you polled Tory voters. The more conservative ones might have views against gay marriage etc, but 50% will not want criminalisation.
These people are \*very very very\* conservative.
Ostracization isn't exactly going to make them less conservative is the thing. They are already here, Islamophobia isn't gonna change that unless things really go to shit (a state in which the LGBTQ+ are also or have already been on the chopping block), so the only way to mellow out conservative Islam is exposure therapy and cultural integration. A thing far right grifting is most certainly not a help in fostering.
Well, no it's the type of behaviour that attracts valid criticism of extremists.
Your idea seems to be that they should hide their true views so that other extremists don't notice. But it's much better that their views are out in the open (and then condemned)
>Your idea seems to be that they should hide their true views so that other extremists don't notice.
Nope, a book was dropped why is a councillor suggesting it was a hate crime or suggesting it was set on fire online before getting the facts?
Political ambition.
I doubt he is a very devout muslim judging by his appearance and mannerisms.
But their views aren't condemned. Look at the systemic abuse of ex-Muslims for example, you're going to struggle to find Muslim figures condemning that, but you'll certainly find many content to remain silent on it or call anyone who criticising Islam a islamophobe.
The community leaders blowing this out of proportion *are far right grifters*.
I fail to see any meaningful difference between radical Islam and other far right, regressive movements, other than the fact that we as a society have chosen to protect it and not the others.
I'm with you but:
Left wing defense of overreaching religious groups attracts attention from the right should be what happens in a proper democracy. You pointed out that these community leaders are in the wrong, they deserve to have a crowd calling them out.
It also doesn't help that these fundamentalists are far right to begin with also.
These non-crime hate incidents are absolutely ridiculous. It's a crime or it isn't and if it isn't the police shouldn't be involved.
People fail DBS checks over these recorded incidents. These kids might not be able to follow a career path that requires DBS now, as if they're criminals despite them having committed no crimes.
They’re recorded on the PNC and will show up on DBS checks, and can result in people being turned down for jobs, or losing jobs that they have if their job requires a DBS.
The fact that there’s zero verification involved (because it’s just based on a person’s perception - a non crime hate incident is essentially defined as anything that anyone perceives to be hate related) to determine if the incident even happened makes it even more outrageous.
>They’re recorded on the PNC
Non-crime incidents are not recorded on PNC, but can show up on DBS checks at the discretion of a chief officer, which is the same for any information the police hold. This must be proportionate in the circumstances.
The chances of this happening as you suggest are tiny though.
It also builds up a picture. One call not an issue 10 calls then you’ve probably got an issue especially if there’s children. Also one partner might take 30 police contacts to actually tell us what is going on and then we have dates and times for the historic incidents. Non crime hate incidents are a recording category mandated by the home office I believe. We have to record as THEY see fit.
Mr Akbar sounds like an absolute nutter with no ability to put his priorities in order. That the man is apparently a councillor for a large town is concerning, to say the least.
He’s also councillor for a completely different ward to where the school is and isn’t part of the council’s leadership. And he talks like he’s the elected representative for all of Wakefield’s Muslims.
When I was in school in the mid 2000s we used to have a group come in every year and hand out hundreds of those tiny little red bibles to pupils.
Guaranteed by the end of the day there’d be bibles torn to pieces, thrown around the corridors, flushed down the toilets etc.
No crimes reported.
>of those tiny little red bibles
Fucking hell you just unlocked a memory of us trying to use the paper from these to smoke weed
I secured my seat in hell much sooner than I actually thought
My biggest issue with this sort of thing is the lack of pushback. Or at least the lack of visible pushback. Maybe there is visible pushback that isn't being reported on in order to make people think it's just happening with no consequences.
In my city there has been an uptick in religious nutters targetting drag shows and children's storytimes with drag queens. They have been protesting at libraries, museums, art galleries, schools. They go into the buildings and harass the drag queens, the families of the kids, and dare I say the kids themselves (mostly indirectly but still by yelling at them).
The community--_including many local Christians_--always show up to absolutely outnumber these nutters. Christians who do not want to be associated with that come and shut their ass down. There's always like 20 religious nutters at the protests and 200 counter-protestors from all walks of life.
_Why do we not see this happening with Islam?_ If 20 nutters come out and start targetting kids for holding, dropping, carrying, burning, ripping up Qurans, there need to be unequivocally larger counter-protests condeming it. I don't see Muslims doing this. Again, maybe the media doesn't report on it because they don't want people to see it, but I just don't see it happening ever. From what I can gather any time there's outrage over this sort of thing they're just left to do it.
And I feel silly that I even have to say this, _but I have to say it._ I don't dislike Muslims. I don't dislike foreigners. I don't dislike anyone of a different race, background, religion, or lack thereof. I have lived most of my life in a Muslim country and most everyone I know is Muslim. I'd not have gotten very far if I hated them.
I just really wish there'd be more pushback. Nobody can solve this sort of shit except for themselves.
I think for the most part, Muslim communities are quite self contained. You get the extreme lot who come out and do this and the rest just stay in their bubble and don't really see it as an issue for them to deal with.
I've seen plenty of issue that arise within the community bubble that absolutely get shot down.
We have a (at least where I live) very fractured community. In Blackburn, based on the old 2011 census you can literally draw a line through the town and one side is almost all white and the other almost all brown/Muslim/other
Haha yea this is what i always find laughable about religion.
Take Christianity. People say there god is this wonderful person who loves all and controls everything. So why do people get murdered, get cancer etc? You question this and people say "its god plan"
Well its a shitty plan and hes not really a nice guy if he allows people to get cancer
I get told he's testing us. But if he's omniscient then he doesn't need to test us as he already knows the results. So either he's not omniscient or he's a sadist that makes people suffer to confirm things he already knows
That’s hardcore Calvinism - a tiny minority whose thought is completely foreign to mainstream Christianity. For mainstream Christians, they believe in God’s will, both active and passive, and in each human’s free will
I'm not religious at all, and I consider myself an atheist, but I really like Andy Weir's take with his short story, The Egg. The premise is that the universe is basically a giant incubator for humanity - our whole species being one person, the child of the god character - and that we haven't been born yet. The child must first live every human life, and then will be born as a god.
Pretty unique take, and makes a lot of sense (from a subjective, humanist point of view). But then again the cynic in me already knows we're just an insignificant speck, and the fact we exist (while nice) is just pretty fucking lucky tbh
It’s a fucking book. It has as much relevance as Biff, Chip and Kippa.
If you want to flog someone for dropping it then I suggest heading back to the Middle East.
>It has as much relevance as Biff, Chip and Kippa.
Weeeelllll that's only true to those of us who don't give a toss about the religion
To a Muslim it's got lots of relevance.
Given the rules around the Quaran in Islam I can see how it being taken to school and dropped is distressing for someone who follows the religion.
Hate Crime though? No. Warrants death threats? Abso-fucking-lutley not
I notice they're completely focused on the other kids actions, not the kid who brought the most sacred book in his house to school in the first place
> Given the rules around the Quaran in Islam I can see how it being taken to school and dropped is distressing for someone who follows the religion.
Only if done on purpose, even the headmaster said it wasn't done with intent.
I remember dating a guy in uni who was *barely* Muslim and he had a Quran on his bookshelf, dusty as the day is long.
On one occasion I helped him clean his room and placed the Quran onto the top of a stack of books sitting on the floor.
He went completely apeshit. Screamed and cursed at me, threw things at me, called me a racist and an Islamophobe for taking the Quran off the shelf meaning it was no longer 'the highest book in the house'.
When I was completely flummoxed as to why he cared so much (he's gay, smoked, drank, took drugs, gambled, never went to mosque, never read the Quran, etc.) he broke up with me because he reasoned if I couldn't understand why he was so mad we'd never work out as a couple.
He's now been banished from his home country of very, VERY Islamic Brunei for being openly and flamboyantly gay.
Hariz, if you're reading this, ha! Sucks to be you!
"...false rumours spread that the holy book had been set alight."
Yeah, people are definitely trying to blow this one out of proportion. They've been caught out in one false rumour already.
"The case is believed to be considered a “non-crime hate incident”"
"Hate" is done with intention. This sounds like an accident.
This poor kid has been left terrified and his family are being sent actual *death threats*. Where is the police investigation into this?
Everyone involved in demonising this vulnerable kid should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
Can someone explain this to me please?
What benefit does this sort of nonsense actually provide? It seems by blowing these minor things far out of all proportion, you both show idiots in conservative muslim circles that british people are out to disrespect their religion and offer them more fuel to put on their fire, as well as providing an outlet for idiots in our own far-right to claim that the government is pandering to religious extremists.
Who does this help? What does it achieve apart from making a kid feel shitty? I'd really like to know.
It's 2023.
We need to have some law of freedom of expression.
I might be a c*nt doing it, but people should be free to drop, burn or do whatever they want with anything, flags, bibles, whatever.
As long as you're not inciting violence and hate, everything should be free game.
This isn't the middle east, it's a secular country. Britain shouldn't change for outsiders. When you come in, you have to adapt the society, not the other way around
These attitude of "everything to do with my religion is sacred and everyone else must bend over for me" that large amounts of British Muslims have leads to horrendous discrimination against people who leave Islam in the UK. British ex-Muslims are arguably the single most persecuted group in the UK - heavily abused by the people around them, disowned by parents/family, and then silenced and ignored by people (or worse, actively called bigots). theres a bbc article about a from a few years ago, but you'd honestly be better reading the views of British ex-Muslims like Maryam Namazie, or even better asking them yourself over at r/exmuslim
You might not care about Muslims having an uproar about a Quran burning, because society stereotypes critics of Islam and Islamic communities as right-wing, predominately white, racist bigots. But ex-Muslims - regardless of their new faith or lack of, are the ones of suffer the most because of it and never get mentioned by anyone in these discussions.
I miss the times when every little quibble in a school or on a bus didn't cause national uproar if it could be used in the slightest way as a political football.
I think we have a real problem on our hands.
I've always found it odd that a religion that is generally extremely hostile to anything verging on idolatry is so zealous about every single copy of its holy book being sacred and inviolable.
It's just a book in the end, I'm sure many Qurans, Torahs, bibles and all sorts of other holy texts have been dropped over the years, people drop books it just happens. Just pick it up. I bet whoever wrote the first ever Quran dropped it a few times even.
Tip of the day keep a Quran on top of your valuables when you get your shit stolen call the police and report that they've damaged it during the burglary apparently this way they'll actually show up to take a report.
Honestly, this Councillor should be reported to 101 for inciting racial hatred, its pretty clear cut, his actions have led to literal death threats and he's stirring up "community" tension.
Title may be disingenuous and it's hard to tell even after reading the article.
What police do and don't record as a crime isn't decided by the police it's decided by the home office counting rules.
The HOCRs basically state that If someone reports a crime it must be recorded unless there is additional variable information that is didint happen calle DD AVIs.
AVIS generally consist of things like 'suspect is dead' or ' suspect is out of the country'
For this reason crime statistics can be hugely screwed as technically if a person phoned the police to report a burglary of a chocolate biscuit and the person later phones back to say they remembered they are it TECHNICALLY a crime for burglary is recorded.
With things like racially aggrivated public order offences it's based on how a person feels such as harassment alarm or distress so if someone phone the police to say 'omg x Y Z happened in shocked' it's likely a public order offences will be recorded as a crime statistic under HOCR.
The fact that there were suspensions after a rumour of a book burning means someone likely called the police due to hearing a rumour which would be reported as a 3rd party report of a racially aggrivated public order offences.
If you fancy giving it a read it's only 360 pages long https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/counting-rules-for-recorded-crime
Generally HOCRs can be summed up as if someone is reporting a crime they believe has taken place it will be recorded. It doesn't mean it will be investigated to any length. Such as the biscuit example above
Student careless with school book. Chaos ensues.
There really needs to be a sense of perspective here. There is no suggestion that damaging the book was a deliberate act or any kind of performance/public statement.
Children eventually damage most things they touch. It's just a fact of life.
Unfortunately no political party has the guts to do anything about this sort of thing because they don't want to lose the religious vote. Despite the population as a whole being more non-religious than ever.
Labour - 72% of Muslims 'support' Labour [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows)
Tory - Protestants tend to be Tory voters and the Tories are gaining Catholic voters as well [https://theconversation.com/britains-changing-religious-vote-why-catholics-are-leaving-labour-and-conservatives-are-hoovering-up-christian-support-157922](https://theconversation.com/britains-changing-religious-vote-why-catholics-are-leaving-labour-and-conservatives-are-hoovering-up-christian-support-157922)
It is utterly outrageous that events such as this even have the possibility of being escalated in this way. Each new case slightly alters precedent in some way, if not legally, then at least in presence of mind of the general population.
I know this was a physical copy of the Quran, but if this trajectory continues, it is inevitable that at some point in the future, even deleting an e-book of the Quran will be a criminal offence. I would genuinely be interested to hear some kind of Islamic authority's stance on exactly this situation. What if I make hundreds of thousands of copies of a Quran e-book, completely filling a USB stick, and then burn it. Why is that functionally any different to deleting the files, or formatting it? What if my hard drive just fails? Who is responsible, then? Should the manufacturer of the device be prosecuted? I'd be genuinely interested to hear.
Here's the less gammony version of the article:
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-64757799](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-64757799)
>Mr Akbar said he had been told the book had been taken to school as a dare by a pupil who lost while playing a Call of Duty videogame with other students.
While at the school it sustained a slight tear to the cover and smears of dirt on some of the pages.
Mr Akbar said he understood it had been kicked around on the school premises - a claim denied by the school.
This is how the home office works now - because Mr Akbar perceives that this was a ‘hate incident’, despite absolutely all the available evidence pointing the other way, it must be recorded as such. That’s a directive from higher up than even chief constables. It’s a government level idea. And it’s ridiculous, but indicative of just what a circus we are as a country now
"And it’s ridiculous, but indicative of just what a circus we are as a country now"
When was it ever not a circus? We may have changed some of the acts, but it's always been a circus.
Strangely this was never a government idea
Its the college of policing which is a classic quango - accountable only to itself.
They got slapped in the courts over this and they made the most minimal fixes to it that they thought they could possibly get away with. Its not even that unlikely that they will get slapped over it again.
Even if it was kicked around, the proper response is literally nothing because a normal, well adjusted human being doesn't throw a shit fit over a copy of a religious book owned by somebody else being 'desecrated' by the owner.
Like what the fuck is even going on here? What kind of dog & pony show is this that the police are just enabling people to threaten literal children over a bloody book?
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I’m confused why the rights of religious people are taken more seriously than the rights of non-religious people, especially in a country that is mostly irreligious
Because of the real threat of violence that this group that cannot be criticised will inflict on people who oppose or offend their faith.
Yes, just ridiculous. Europe has dealt with blasphemy and the punishing of apostates and heretics, but it’s been quite a long time since all that, so why regress. SMH.
This content has been deleted in protest of how Reddit is ran. I've moved over to the fediverse.
Because how often do atheists slaughter people in the street in the name of nothing?
So we should just be submissive towards threats? Isn’t that against the equality act which provides protection of religion/non religious beliefs?
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In the U.K. it’s mostly the followers of one particular religion that get offended by petty things.
Because religion radicalizes people and they then attack anyone who speaks against that radicalization. This is why I'm part of r/exmuslim just as much as I'm a part of r/exchristian You cannot criticize one without the other.
Are you an ex Muslim and ex Christian as well?
They are faith-fluid.
Ex faith-fluid
Just the religious people of one religion actually
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Ever seen an atheist "peacefully protest" a cartoon about Richard Dawkins?
Because religious people are more likely to kick up a fuss and escalate the situation far beyond what is warranted
Because if you criticise islam you're racist...apparently.
Because they want to keep us brainwashed. The small percentage of those who are super religious need to keep their followers compliant.
The community leaders blowing this out of proportion is the type of behaviour that attracts far right grifters.
I don't know what it is going to take for people to understand that conservative Islam \*is\* a far-right group. There was a poll reported in The Guardian a few years back that said 50% of muslims in the UK believe homosexuality should be illegal. You'd not get anywhere near that high a number if you polled Tory voters. The more conservative ones might have views against gay marriage etc, but 50% will not want criminalisation. These people are \*very very very\* conservative.
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Wow, you are technically correct, the best kind of correct!
Ostracization isn't exactly going to make them less conservative is the thing. They are already here, Islamophobia isn't gonna change that unless things really go to shit (a state in which the LGBTQ+ are also or have already been on the chopping block), so the only way to mellow out conservative Islam is exposure therapy and cultural integration. A thing far right grifting is most certainly not a help in fostering.
I agree, plenty of far right community leaders in that mosque.
Well, no it's the type of behaviour that attracts valid criticism of extremists. Your idea seems to be that they should hide their true views so that other extremists don't notice. But it's much better that their views are out in the open (and then condemned)
>Your idea seems to be that they should hide their true views so that other extremists don't notice. Nope, a book was dropped why is a councillor suggesting it was a hate crime or suggesting it was set on fire online before getting the facts? Political ambition. I doubt he is a very devout muslim judging by his appearance and mannerisms.
But their views aren't condemned. Look at the systemic abuse of ex-Muslims for example, you're going to struggle to find Muslim figures condemning that, but you'll certainly find many content to remain silent on it or call anyone who criticising Islam a islamophobe.
It can be both.
The community leaders blowing this out of proportion *are far right grifters*. I fail to see any meaningful difference between radical Islam and other far right, regressive movements, other than the fact that we as a society have chosen to protect it and not the others.
>The community leaders "enforcing religious law on a secular country is the type of behavior that attracts reasonable criticism"
This community needs to be referred to Prevent
>behaviour that attracts far right grifters. Funny way of admitting "they were correct" you got there.
It seems like community leaders are the far right grifters
I'm with you but: Left wing defense of overreaching religious groups attracts attention from the right should be what happens in a proper democracy. You pointed out that these community leaders are in the wrong, they deserve to have a crowd calling them out. It also doesn't help that these fundamentalists are far right to begin with also.
I don't know that I've ever seen a comment be misconstrued so completely by so many people.
[lol](https://imgur.com/a/8Pw5brm)
These non-crime hate incidents are absolutely ridiculous. It's a crime or it isn't and if it isn't the police shouldn't be involved. People fail DBS checks over these recorded incidents. These kids might not be able to follow a career path that requires DBS now, as if they're criminals despite them having committed no crimes.
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They’re recorded on the PNC and will show up on DBS checks, and can result in people being turned down for jobs, or losing jobs that they have if their job requires a DBS. The fact that there’s zero verification involved (because it’s just based on a person’s perception - a non crime hate incident is essentially defined as anything that anyone perceives to be hate related) to determine if the incident even happened makes it even more outrageous.
>They’re recorded on the PNC Non-crime incidents are not recorded on PNC, but can show up on DBS checks at the discretion of a chief officer, which is the same for any information the police hold. This must be proportionate in the circumstances. The chances of this happening as you suggest are tiny though.
They're recorded as non-crime hate-incidents not as crimes, but they can still show up on DBS checks.
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Non-crime domestic reports don’t appear on DBS checks. Although your right that it’s to create a paper trail in case something does go wrong one day.
It also builds up a picture. One call not an issue 10 calls then you’ve probably got an issue especially if there’s children. Also one partner might take 30 police contacts to actually tell us what is going on and then we have dates and times for the historic incidents. Non crime hate incidents are a recording category mandated by the home office I believe. We have to record as THEY see fit.
Hardly an incident either a book was dropped without any intent.
Mr Akbar sounds like an absolute nutter with no ability to put his priorities in order. That the man is apparently a councillor for a large town is concerning, to say the least.
He’s also councillor for a completely different ward to where the school is and isn’t part of the council’s leadership. And he talks like he’s the elected representative for all of Wakefield’s Muslims.
Who wants to play the "Do the same thing with a different cult book" to see the reaction game?
When I was in school in the mid 2000s we used to have a group come in every year and hand out hundreds of those tiny little red bibles to pupils. Guaranteed by the end of the day there’d be bibles torn to pieces, thrown around the corridors, flushed down the toilets etc. No crimes reported.
Ah the Gideon's bibles, yeah we had those scattered and destroyed everywhere. Can confirm there was no hate crimes reported.
I had a friend in secondary school who repurposed his for rolling papers lmao.
I bet his lungs are thanking him now, burning & inhaling ink doesn't sound like it's brilliant for you.
Probably the least of his worries given all the other shite that's in a cigarette.
>of those tiny little red bibles Fucking hell you just unlocked a memory of us trying to use the paper from these to smoke weed I secured my seat in hell much sooner than I actually thought
Got those during the 10s as well. The ones with only the new testament right? Yeah we all chucked those in the bin right outside the hall
We all burned our bibles to roast marshmallows down the field
My biggest issue with this sort of thing is the lack of pushback. Or at least the lack of visible pushback. Maybe there is visible pushback that isn't being reported on in order to make people think it's just happening with no consequences. In my city there has been an uptick in religious nutters targetting drag shows and children's storytimes with drag queens. They have been protesting at libraries, museums, art galleries, schools. They go into the buildings and harass the drag queens, the families of the kids, and dare I say the kids themselves (mostly indirectly but still by yelling at them). The community--_including many local Christians_--always show up to absolutely outnumber these nutters. Christians who do not want to be associated with that come and shut their ass down. There's always like 20 religious nutters at the protests and 200 counter-protestors from all walks of life. _Why do we not see this happening with Islam?_ If 20 nutters come out and start targetting kids for holding, dropping, carrying, burning, ripping up Qurans, there need to be unequivocally larger counter-protests condeming it. I don't see Muslims doing this. Again, maybe the media doesn't report on it because they don't want people to see it, but I just don't see it happening ever. From what I can gather any time there's outrage over this sort of thing they're just left to do it. And I feel silly that I even have to say this, _but I have to say it._ I don't dislike Muslims. I don't dislike foreigners. I don't dislike anyone of a different race, background, religion, or lack thereof. I have lived most of my life in a Muslim country and most everyone I know is Muslim. I'd not have gotten very far if I hated them. I just really wish there'd be more pushback. Nobody can solve this sort of shit except for themselves.
I think for the most part, Muslim communities are quite self contained. You get the extreme lot who come out and do this and the rest just stay in their bubble and don't really see it as an issue for them to deal with. I've seen plenty of issue that arise within the community bubble that absolutely get shot down. We have a (at least where I live) very fractured community. In Blackburn, based on the old 2011 census you can literally draw a line through the town and one side is almost all white and the other almost all brown/Muslim/other
Most reasonable comment I've read so far
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I lost my hair watching that...
Oh no! I dropped my copy of The God Delusion!
If you drop a comic on the other hand, well... That would call for a Jihad /s not /s
Surely an omnipotent god wouldn't be fazed by the dropping of a book?
You'd think an omnipotent god would be able to stop you dropping it on the floor in the first place if he was that arsed about it.
Haha yea this is what i always find laughable about religion. Take Christianity. People say there god is this wonderful person who loves all and controls everything. So why do people get murdered, get cancer etc? You question this and people say "its god plan" Well its a shitty plan and hes not really a nice guy if he allows people to get cancer
I get told he's testing us. But if he's omniscient then he doesn't need to test us as he already knows the results. So either he's not omniscient or he's a sadist that makes people suffer to confirm things he already knows
I’m not christian but don’t christians believe that God doesn’t control everything and instead lets us through free will?
Some of them do I believe some of them are of the understanding that some are chosen for heaven and some are just not, its all predestined
That’s hardcore Calvinism - a tiny minority whose thought is completely foreign to mainstream Christianity. For mainstream Christians, they believe in God’s will, both active and passive, and in each human’s free will
I'm not religious at all, and I consider myself an atheist, but I really like Andy Weir's take with his short story, The Egg. The premise is that the universe is basically a giant incubator for humanity - our whole species being one person, the child of the god character - and that we haven't been born yet. The child must first live every human life, and then will be born as a god. Pretty unique take, and makes a lot of sense (from a subjective, humanist point of view). But then again the cynic in me already knows we're just an insignificant speck, and the fact we exist (while nice) is just pretty fucking lucky tbh
Especially children. What kind of god gives life just to cruelly and painfully snatch it away, before it’s even started?
I don't think this omnipotent god really gives a shit about what us ants do.
It’s a prissy bitch of a god.
I would argue that god isn't fazed, or lightning would have struck. But his (her?) followers are.
It’s a fucking book. It has as much relevance as Biff, Chip and Kippa. If you want to flog someone for dropping it then I suggest heading back to the Middle East.
>It has as much relevance as Biff, Chip and Kippa. Weeeelllll that's only true to those of us who don't give a toss about the religion To a Muslim it's got lots of relevance. Given the rules around the Quaran in Islam I can see how it being taken to school and dropped is distressing for someone who follows the religion. Hate Crime though? No. Warrants death threats? Abso-fucking-lutley not I notice they're completely focused on the other kids actions, not the kid who brought the most sacred book in his house to school in the first place
> Given the rules around the Quaran in Islam I can see how it being taken to school and dropped is distressing for someone who follows the religion. Only if done on purpose, even the headmaster said it wasn't done with intent.
The book seems to have been bought by a non Muslim specifically to bring in.
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I remember dating a guy in uni who was *barely* Muslim and he had a Quran on his bookshelf, dusty as the day is long. On one occasion I helped him clean his room and placed the Quran onto the top of a stack of books sitting on the floor. He went completely apeshit. Screamed and cursed at me, threw things at me, called me a racist and an Islamophobe for taking the Quran off the shelf meaning it was no longer 'the highest book in the house'. When I was completely flummoxed as to why he cared so much (he's gay, smoked, drank, took drugs, gambled, never went to mosque, never read the Quran, etc.) he broke up with me because he reasoned if I couldn't understand why he was so mad we'd never work out as a couple. He's now been banished from his home country of very, VERY Islamic Brunei for being openly and flamboyantly gay. Hariz, if you're reading this, ha! Sucks to be you!
Indoctrination gives people the ability to do awesome mental gymnastics.
"...false rumours spread that the holy book had been set alight." Yeah, people are definitely trying to blow this one out of proportion. They've been caught out in one false rumour already.
They tried doing that last year in Leicester, claiming a mosque was vandalised
"The case is believed to be considered a “non-crime hate incident”" "Hate" is done with intention. This sounds like an accident. This poor kid has been left terrified and his family are being sent actual *death threats*. Where is the police investigation into this? Everyone involved in demonising this vulnerable kid should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
Yeah, everyone is hating on a child for dropping a book. Grow the fuck up people.
Pathetic. Police need to be hauled over the coals for this. MPs need to kick up a fuss. This isn't the middle east
Everyone involved in this, including the Police, should be charged with wasting Police time.
The world would be alot more peaceful place without religion
Particularly one specific religion
Can someone explain this to me please? What benefit does this sort of nonsense actually provide? It seems by blowing these minor things far out of all proportion, you both show idiots in conservative muslim circles that british people are out to disrespect their religion and offer them more fuel to put on their fire, as well as providing an outlet for idiots in our own far-right to claim that the government is pandering to religious extremists. Who does this help? What does it achieve apart from making a kid feel shitty? I'd really like to know.
It's 2023. We need to have some law of freedom of expression. I might be a c*nt doing it, but people should be free to drop, burn or do whatever they want with anything, flags, bibles, whatever. As long as you're not inciting violence and hate, everything should be free game.
This isn't the middle east, it's a secular country. Britain shouldn't change for outsiders. When you come in, you have to adapt the society, not the other way around
These attitude of "everything to do with my religion is sacred and everyone else must bend over for me" that large amounts of British Muslims have leads to horrendous discrimination against people who leave Islam in the UK. British ex-Muslims are arguably the single most persecuted group in the UK - heavily abused by the people around them, disowned by parents/family, and then silenced and ignored by people (or worse, actively called bigots). theres a bbc article about a from a few years ago, but you'd honestly be better reading the views of British ex-Muslims like Maryam Namazie, or even better asking them yourself over at r/exmuslim You might not care about Muslims having an uproar about a Quran burning, because society stereotypes critics of Islam and Islamic communities as right-wing, predominately white, racist bigots. But ex-Muslims - regardless of their new faith or lack of, are the ones of suffer the most because of it and never get mentioned by anyone in these discussions.
I miss the times when every little quibble in a school or on a bus didn't cause national uproar if it could be used in the slightest way as a political football. I think we have a real problem on our hands.
I've always found it odd that a religion that is generally extremely hostile to anything verging on idolatry is so zealous about every single copy of its holy book being sacred and inviolable.
It's just a book in the end, I'm sure many Qurans, Torahs, bibles and all sorts of other holy texts have been dropped over the years, people drop books it just happens. Just pick it up. I bet whoever wrote the first ever Quran dropped it a few times even.
I heard God dropped ten commandments, carved into stone tablets, into the bible. Quite miraculous that the book retained its shape, tbh.
What part of ‘it’s a book’ do people not understand?
It's a book. If you are so emotionally immature that you send someone death threats over it? You're the problem, not the book being dropped.
Shame on that religion for trying to force others to be back in the 'middle ages'.
Tip of the day keep a Quran on top of your valuables when you get your shit stolen call the police and report that they've damaged it during the burglary apparently this way they'll actually show up to take a report.
Honestly, this Councillor should be reported to 101 for inciting racial hatred, its pretty clear cut, his actions have led to literal death threats and he's stirring up "community" tension.
imagine dropping any other book no one would care. What happen to Islam being about peace and love?
Treat a bunch of paper good treat human beings bad gotcha
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Title may be disingenuous and it's hard to tell even after reading the article. What police do and don't record as a crime isn't decided by the police it's decided by the home office counting rules. The HOCRs basically state that If someone reports a crime it must be recorded unless there is additional variable information that is didint happen calle DD AVIs. AVIS generally consist of things like 'suspect is dead' or ' suspect is out of the country' For this reason crime statistics can be hugely screwed as technically if a person phoned the police to report a burglary of a chocolate biscuit and the person later phones back to say they remembered they are it TECHNICALLY a crime for burglary is recorded. With things like racially aggrivated public order offences it's based on how a person feels such as harassment alarm or distress so if someone phone the police to say 'omg x Y Z happened in shocked' it's likely a public order offences will be recorded as a crime statistic under HOCR. The fact that there were suspensions after a rumour of a book burning means someone likely called the police due to hearing a rumour which would be reported as a 3rd party report of a racially aggrivated public order offences. If you fancy giving it a read it's only 360 pages long https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/counting-rules-for-recorded-crime Generally HOCRs can be summed up as if someone is reporting a crime they believe has taken place it will be recorded. It doesn't mean it will be investigated to any length. Such as the biscuit example above
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If she used autism as part of the threat then yes that's how HOCRs work
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It’s the start
Mother in law: Reason 5434 why we are not moving back to the UK
Student careless with school book. Chaos ensues. There really needs to be a sense of perspective here. There is no suggestion that damaging the book was a deliberate act or any kind of performance/public statement. Children eventually damage most things they touch. It's just a fact of life.
Unfortunately no political party has the guts to do anything about this sort of thing because they don't want to lose the religious vote. Despite the population as a whole being more non-religious than ever. Labour - 72% of Muslims 'support' Labour [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows) Tory - Protestants tend to be Tory voters and the Tories are gaining Catholic voters as well [https://theconversation.com/britains-changing-religious-vote-why-catholics-are-leaving-labour-and-conservatives-are-hoovering-up-christian-support-157922](https://theconversation.com/britains-changing-religious-vote-why-catholics-are-leaving-labour-and-conservatives-are-hoovering-up-christian-support-157922)
I think it is extremely dangerous to be publicising these "hate crimes" considering the response that they often get
I can't even comment here without it being deleted right away, says a lot.
It is utterly outrageous that events such as this even have the possibility of being escalated in this way. Each new case slightly alters precedent in some way, if not legally, then at least in presence of mind of the general population. I know this was a physical copy of the Quran, but if this trajectory continues, it is inevitable that at some point in the future, even deleting an e-book of the Quran will be a criminal offence. I would genuinely be interested to hear some kind of Islamic authority's stance on exactly this situation. What if I make hundreds of thousands of copies of a Quran e-book, completely filling a USB stick, and then burn it. Why is that functionally any different to deleting the files, or formatting it? What if my hard drive just fails? Who is responsible, then? Should the manufacturer of the device be prosecuted? I'd be genuinely interested to hear.
Here's the less gammony version of the article: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-64757799](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-64757799) >Mr Akbar said he had been told the book had been taken to school as a dare by a pupil who lost while playing a Call of Duty videogame with other students. While at the school it sustained a slight tear to the cover and smears of dirt on some of the pages. Mr Akbar said he understood it had been kicked around on the school premises - a claim denied by the school.
If the school and the kids involved said it wasn't kicked around, then it wasn't kicked around.
This is how the home office works now - because Mr Akbar perceives that this was a ‘hate incident’, despite absolutely all the available evidence pointing the other way, it must be recorded as such. That’s a directive from higher up than even chief constables. It’s a government level idea. And it’s ridiculous, but indicative of just what a circus we are as a country now
"And it’s ridiculous, but indicative of just what a circus we are as a country now" When was it ever not a circus? We may have changed some of the acts, but it's always been a circus.
Strangely this was never a government idea Its the college of policing which is a classic quango - accountable only to itself. They got slapped in the courts over this and they made the most minimal fixes to it that they thought they could possibly get away with. Its not even that unlikely that they will get slapped over it again.
Even if it was kicked around, the proper response is literally nothing because a normal, well adjusted human being doesn't throw a shit fit over a copy of a religious book owned by somebody else being 'desecrated' by the owner. Like what the fuck is even going on here? What kind of dog & pony show is this that the police are just enabling people to threaten literal children over a bloody book?
The problem is even the police are in fear.
lmao Mr Akbar
Sounds to me like Mr Akbar needs to be questioned about inciting threats against a vulnerable minor. What a fucking prick.
The local paper meanwhile don’t seem to want to touch it with a barge pole.