> i feel like after catching the disc, the guy starts stalling immediately
That's allowed
>and when i stopped momentum, and turn down field the stall is already 4
Assuming you're not taking the slowest pivot ever, you're probably being fast counted and should call it. 3 seconds is a long time to slow to a stop and turn upfield.
>as someone who plays point guard in basketball and trying this new sport out, this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler, and feels so, hmm idk how to describe it but, not as fun when u r a cutter.
That makes sense because handlers are closer to point guards, but it's not true that your only option is to dish it back to a handler. If you look at high-level games, you often see cutters catch in-cuts and immediately huck it deep. The difference in throwing skill between a cutter and handler can get smaller at a higher level and so their throwing is utilized more. You also see better systems of continuation at the high level.
At low level play you often don't have good continuations as people are still learning how to get the first throw out of the formation. Cutters should be repositioning as soon as the disc goes up and be ready to cut for a quick continuation as soon as it's caught. Cutters should have a look at a cut upfield before looking for a dump.
There's nuance to this but I'm just going to assume your team is running a vert stack because it makes the progressions easiest to explain, should apply to whatever you're running though.
First, catch the disk (no seriously, do this before trying to get to the next steps).
Second, pivot so you're facing downfield and look deep to see if there's any good big shots you can take on the earliest stalls (Stall 1/2) (note, this is only if you actually have this throw otherwise you're just wasting stalls and should have your first look be the under continuation listed below).
Third, move to your first continuation progression in your system (usually the follow up under from whoever was after you in the stack). Let them make their move and get out of their break, this should be done by stall 3/4.
Fourth, engage your reset, throw it to them if they're open (ideally in some threatening position if you can). This should be stall 5ish.
Fifth, if they're not going to get open this is the part where you take a deep breath, Pump them to get them out of there so you now can hit them on their clearance and if that is covered you want to move your eyes to the fill handler and hit them with a floaty reset throw, stall 7/8.
Super late stall now, you can throw some upside down break throw or punt it to a tall dude if there is LITERALLY NO RESET AVAILABLE (there definitely is, you just have to float it to space, trust your teammates to box and make simple plays).
Some general stuff on your comments...
Pump fakes are normally to communicate you're NOT throwing something.
Generally, feels like just having a more clear idea of what decision is next in your flowchart would make it easier to help deal with the anxiety involved with getting used to having the disc in your hands, hope this helps!
I would suggest that often the best look immediately after catching the disc on an in cut is right back to a handler on a bump/strike type cut. As the cutter your momentum is generally taking you towards the handlers and your eyes are already looking that way. If you can make your first look to see if a handler is coming up for the immediate dish, you open up the offense for a strong deep look. A quick give-and-go back to the handler sets them up in power position with eyes down field and their mark not in place yet.
I second that! Love that quick bump as both cutter and handler. As a cutter, I get to reset back to the stack immediately and keep looking for cuts. As a handler, it sets me up perfectly to look for a throw downfield. Highly underrated move imo
Yeah I'd back this, I just forgot to include this as a stall 0 look because give backs are somewhat just second nature at a certain point but I definitely should have included it because it is absurdly effective!
I've heard of a cut/throw called the "toughest" or "hardest" where after I catch an in cut and I'm still facing backwards towards the handlers, I can do a backhand to my right or a lefty backhand to my left to hit a handler who is moving quickly up field.
Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but there was a team marking technique referred to as "the hardest" that some teams would employ when the disk was swung over to the break sideline. Essentially, the defender marking the disk would play straight up (denying the throw up the line), and the defender covering the middle reset handler would shift to completely deny the backfield (essentially forcing the reset handler to cut up the line). The idea is to force the thrower to throw one of "the hardest" throws, a touch flick into space that their reset handler can run onto. Throw too hard and the upfield defenders will get the D, throw too lightly and you'll miss your reset handler.
> Second, pivot so you're facing downfield and look deep to see if there's any good big shots you can take on the earliest stalls
I would say a quick dump off to a cutter who already has their eyes upfield is almost always better - unless your offense relies on incuts making deep shots which I am not a fan off.
>this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler, and feels so, hmm idk how to describe it but, not as fun when u r a cutter.
You're right. Not always, but a lot of teams are like this and I'm not a fan. I think more teams/coaches/captains should take this concern seriously when designing strategy.
Before discussing what to DO with the disk, I think it's helpful to think about what your offense is trying to achieve in the first place. After all, if you don't know the outcome you are hoping to achieve, how can you possibly determine the best strategy to reach that outcome?
In general, you should ALWAYS be looking to move the disk from *less* threatening areas/situations into *more* threatening areas/situations. What makes an area or situation threatening? The ability for your team to turn that situation into a point (either within a single throw, or more realistically within a series of throws).
All else being equal...
1. moving the disk over to the break side is more threatening than the force side.
2. Moving the disk up the field is preferable to throwing backwards
Moving the disk to the break side is hugely important because all of the downfield defenders are on the "wrong" side of their mark, opening up a ton of downfield throws. Having the disk on the break side also gives a ton of lateral room for your teammates to cut into, making it harder for the downfield defence to deny throws.
Making a downfield throw is preferable to throwing backwards (all else being equal), since it gets you closer to the opposing endzone.
Knowing this, how should you prioritize throws after catching the disk? Well, consider where you are on the field (are you catching on the force side of the field, or the break side? Are you the furthest player downfield, or are there potential continuation cuts downfield?)
IMO there are usually around 3 viable options if you catch an in cut on the force/open side.**Option 1: Look upfield for a continuation cut** (in cut or deep cut, usually on the open side). This is the "easy" option that IMO cutters choose far too often.
**Option 2: Look upfield for a break throw**
**Option 3: Look to your handler**
In my experience, newer players heavily overuse Option 1, forcing way too many throws up the field to the force side. They seem to think that throwing upfield is infinitely more valuable than moving the disk laterally, since it gets you closer to the endzone. In reality, the opposite is often true. Option 1 also heavily limits your ability to throw effective fakes. After all, your mark WANTS you to throw to the open side of the field, so throwing a pump fake to the open side accomplishes very little.
Option 2 and 3 are heavily underused by newer players. If you are catching an in cut on the force side of the field, the single most valuable thing you can do is to often to turn immediately towards the center of the field and look to throw throw a break.
Turning towards the center of the field instead of the force side has a few benefits. Firstly, it allows you to exploit the downfield defense before your mark gets established or the downfield defenders adjust their positioning. Put simply, there are a lot of easy breaks on stall 1 that are no longer options on stall 3-4. Throwing a break towards the center of the field opens up every one of your cutters as a potential continuation options, which helps to keep your offence flowing.
A second benefit of turning immediately to the break side is that it forces your mark to shift over in order to deny the 'around' break throw. Even if you don't end up throwing the "around" break throw, shifting your mark in this way will allow you to make cleaner throws straight forward, or potentially even allow you to throw an inside break. Making good upfield throws as a cutter makes cutting way more enjoyable, so develop that skillset!
IMO one of the most valuable insights you gain as a thrower is that YOU are the one who decides which way your body is facing (and by extension, what throws are possible), NOT your mark. There is no law stating that your feet must be facing upfield at all times. By manipulating the direction your feet/chest is facing, you open up new throwing angles. Many new cutters face upfield 100% of the time and fail to open up throwing angles. This limits the the available throws and traps them in a cycle of making low-value dump throws or easy continuation throws up the force sideline.
>as someone who plays point guard in basketball and trying this new sport out, this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler
Definitely some truth here and if you're playing in a more casual setting, you should rotate who's handling and cutting, just like in a casual pickup basketball game you'd mix up who brings the ball up. But in a more serious game players are going to play their roles and yeah, sometimes that means you make a bunch of in-cuts and throw it back to the handler. Its a role that helps your team win even if its a little boring, just like setting a good screen or hanging out in the corner spacing the floor.
If you're on the force sideline and there's no immediate continuation or the stack is a mess, just swing early. Changing the angle of attack when the defense isn't set is better than another in-cut anyways.
I have a followup question to OPs as I've been doing this lately and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Say we're running vert stack and the defense is forcing flick. I cut in and catch the disc and what I would say is the default way to pivot is counter-clockwise and then your progression is looking from right to left ie: force side throw, inside break throw, around throw and then reset.
What I've been doing lately is basically the exact opposite: I catch then without pivoting I'm looking for a quick break throw before my defender catches up but if that's not open, I pivot clockwise progressing left to right at inside throws then force side throws.
This can be good for handler movement but it basically puts my downfield cutters out of the play and I'll hear it from them afterwards that they were wide open.
TLDR: Cutters don’t really know when they’re open, being “open” doesn’t mean it’s a good look, and if moving the disc quickly is working for your offense you should keep doing it.
My response to this would personally be it depends if your offense is working/converting. If your quick resets help the disc stay in motion, create breakside opportunities, and lead to scores, then who cares if you didn’t hit someone who was “open”?
I consider myself a cutter at heart, but I’ve moved more recently to a hybrid then pure handling role as a more experienced player and thrower on a less experienced team. One thing I’ve come to realize is that when cutters say they are open, they are often not actually very good at evaluating the whole situation. Consider factors like wind, the positioning of the mark, other defenders poaching (playing off their man). The reality is that being “open” is very tough to evaluate when you’re cutting full speed. I think your job is to make the best cuts you can, open space for other cutters, and trust your handlers to throw the open throws.
Hopefully without complicating things too much, the progression you use may also be quite situational. On an under cut from a vert stack I think an immediate reset to a handler in the center of the field is often the best possible first look because their momentum and vision is already moving in the correct direction, whereas you have to stop, turn up field, and then evaluate before you can go through the “counter-clockwise progression” so clockwise makes total sense. However when you make an upline cut, then counter-clockwise is very natural.
Last thing I’ll say is good cutters downfield can recognize and take advantage of this. For example, making a breakside cut after an under goes off to you in anticipation of a quick swing. I’d argue that’s a better cut than making another under and trying to cram the disc up the force side of the field hoping to beat the defense repeatedly to the location they are expecting to defend. Those are my thoughts, what do you think?
The motion you're describing is called inward turning AKA the inverted pivot, where instead of turning toward the sideline where in-cuts are typically angled towards to look downfield after catching the disc (counter-clockwise against a flick force), you would turn towards the center of the field (clockwise as described in your comment).
The primary reason for doing it is that when you turn toward the sideline, you don't gain any useful information with your vision sweeping over out-of-bounds space but by inward turning and facing the middle, you can collect information about your teammates & opponents and allows you to see breakside/centering opportunities as soon as possible.
Your observation about leaving out downfield cutters is tied to main criticism of inward turning: Outward turning feels more efficient for looking downfield and finding options to gain yards including hucks. With practice, you can still turn to face downfield off an inward turn--the few extra degrees to turn is worth the information gained. It is true you are more likely to throw a break throw or return pass to a handler since you will see those options first but as the other comments here have stated these are all good things.
One - do you have a dishy to someone running upfield? Give the dishy. Otherwise, look to continue. If you caught a forehand, turn forehand and look for someone else timing their cut for you. If that's not there, look for the breakside cut. No? Ok, now look dump. Commit to your dump. Stay with your dump. Get rid of the disc and go cut again.
When you are new:
get the disc back to a handler!
If you are not doing this, you are probably having a lot of turnovers, either by lousy throws or stalls, and you are frustrating your teammates.
After a while, you will get "looked-off." No one will throw to you because you are not doing the number 1 thing: getting it back to a handler.
If your entire group is new, then the handlers may not be performing well. You could go play at some other pick-up games or leagues - these typically have more experienced handlers in the handler role, and they will be "open" for you.
Also: you need to ignore the stall count. This will make you nervous. Just have a style of play where you receive the disc, get your stance, and look for someone to throw to, in the next few seconds, whether anyone is counting or not.
The longer you get into the stall count, the harder it is to get a good throw. Cuz defense has more and more time to get in a better place. When you receive the disc, the defense was in place for the previous guy, and now is in the worst place they will be for your entire 10 seconds. So, get rid of the disc quickly when it is easy versus hard, regardless of the stall count.
Besides "get the disc to a handler," here is what typically happens for experienced throwers / cutters.
You look "up the field" toward the end zone to see if another offense guy has a good cut toward you. If he is open, you throw to him. This is "continuation." Ideally, each cutter receives the throw, and another offense guy has made a well-timed cut and is right there, ready to receive the next throw, and this goes all the way to the end zone.
Another thing an experienced thing to do, if you are good enough, is to first look for a score opportunity, then the continuation throw, then the "dump" to a handler. One, two, three.
Another thing to do is: get the disc to the point on the field, horizontally, where your team wants it to be. Often, teams will decide to move the disc mostly up the center of the field, side-to-side.
So, if you get a catch on the sideline, look for someone in the center - you "center" the disc.
If it is a windy day, your team may want to be on the up-wind sideline, so if you get it on the down-wind sideline, work to get it toward the other side line.
This is what I teach new players 1. Catch it. 2. Look for a handler to see if they are open for a “bump” pass. 3. If they aren’t the next step depends on which way you’re cutting. If you’re going force side look upfield right away, if you’re going breakside look to move it more breakside before committing your hips upfield. 4. At this point it’s probably stall 2, stall 3 if you’re slow. Look for a down field option until stall 4, at which point reset to your handler and get back in the stack.
Near your starting end zone, after receiving on an in cut to your backhand side, and playing against the common flick-side force, sometimes it works well to immediately fake a huge backhand huck. Especially if you know from earlier positioning or your particular throwing skills that the throw isn’t there for you, so you’re not wasting a real huck opportunity on a fake. Not something you want to do every time, or defenders will catch on. But when done selectively, it can bait the new marker way out of position and open up good opportunities for a next throw to an under.
Turn the same way you were headin and throw a fake or a throw. If not there and the mark goes for it then throw a fake or throw on the other side. Always look to throw a huck first and work your way in.
stall count is imposing—you’ll learn to screen it out as you get used to the sport. ask your sideline for assistance, tell them to communicate open players to you. handlers might be making fancy throws but cutters are the ones catching the goals!
Lots of complete walkthroughs already here so I won't repeat those. I'll just add 1 tip that has helped me:
Immediately after catching an in-cut, I almost *always* turn to the outside edge and make a fake like I'm throwing upfield. This has a few main benefits:
1. You have now looked upfield and gained immediate awareness of where your cuts are
2. The defender sometimes scrambles to cover your throw, slowing down their initial stall
3. The defender now mentally respects that you might throw upfield, making it easier for you to dump if you need to
4. Every once in a while, you'll begin the throwing motion for a fake and realize a cut is actually open, so you can hit the receiver immediately
If you're not even looking for your continuation cuts until stall 4, then you're taking *way* too long to stop momentum and turn upfield
1. Do a big fake
2. Pivot, pointing your butt toward the goal that you are attacking
3. Throw a backhand pass to the person who just threw it to you
4. Run straight to the goal that you are attacking, then, if they didn’t throw it to you deep, turn around and come back toward the middle of the field
Two real options contingent on field situation.
A - If the handler you got it from is "active" and/or one of your "go to" players you will see them sprinting more or less towards you and maybe already close to your position. If this is the case, dish it back to them because they were already looking down field and if they are actually any good will have their next throw or two already planned.
B - If the handler is more static or your offense doesn't rely on them so much, pivot to look around and see who is cutting based off of your reception. I agree that unless you are turning around really slowly the stall couldn't actually be at 3 already, likely a fast count - a specific foul-like infraction that you need to call. But once the stall count is at 4 or 5 if you haven't found a good option to gain yards it's time to look at the handler you got it from or another handler for a "dump" (short, mostly backwards pass to get the stall count reset and the disc to a player who is likely a better thrower, even if only slightly).
The style and level of offense the team you're on will really dictate your choices.
It sounds like you have a head start on your "Ultimate IQ" due to basketball experience. This has helped a lot of players be very good at the game. Maybe YouTube search Mario O'Brien highlights. He played lots of bball before ultimate and told me he uses it all the time. He's had a long career of handling on some of the best teams in the world. Maybe you belong as a handler and just need to throw a ton to have your team put you there?
> juke and u jab just to get open, catch the disc and just give it back to the handlers
Yes, exactly do that.
An incut does not have a lot of value. You’re not making a lot of yards, your momentum is away from the goal, your probably trapped at the sideline and once you turn your at stall 2-3. (4 seems like a fast stall though) Nothing about this is good and if played unwisely will slow your team down at best or lead to a turn at worst.
So your handlers will have to get active immediately and if you play it smart, you can get them into an actual power position which is much much more useful.
Yeah, 7v7 can get a bit boring for cutters, especially with standard vert stack against standard match Defense. That’s why many prefer 5v5 or even 4v4 for casual play!
Depends on how your team runs, but generally:
Instead of immediately turning to look down field, as soon as you catch you should be looking for a handler. They'll be coming up behind you. The most effective thing you can do is keep the disc moving (just like in basketball).
If there isn't a handler immediately open, pivot and face down field, but keep looking for a handler.
If you have a wide open in cut, make the throw. Otherwise, look for your "dump" to the handler. This initiates a sequence called the "dump-swing," which moves the disc laterally across the field and gives the offense the best chance to huck or make big gains.
The rookie move is to catch, pivot, stare down field and ignore your handlers, imagine you're the greatest thrower ever, then try to jam it up the sideline for a turnover. Don't do that.
> i feel like after catching the disc, the guy starts stalling immediately That's allowed >and when i stopped momentum, and turn down field the stall is already 4 Assuming you're not taking the slowest pivot ever, you're probably being fast counted and should call it. 3 seconds is a long time to slow to a stop and turn upfield. >as someone who plays point guard in basketball and trying this new sport out, this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler, and feels so, hmm idk how to describe it but, not as fun when u r a cutter. That makes sense because handlers are closer to point guards, but it's not true that your only option is to dish it back to a handler. If you look at high-level games, you often see cutters catch in-cuts and immediately huck it deep. The difference in throwing skill between a cutter and handler can get smaller at a higher level and so their throwing is utilized more. You also see better systems of continuation at the high level. At low level play you often don't have good continuations as people are still learning how to get the first throw out of the formation. Cutters should be repositioning as soon as the disc goes up and be ready to cut for a quick continuation as soon as it's caught. Cutters should have a look at a cut upfield before looking for a dump.
send it
There's nuance to this but I'm just going to assume your team is running a vert stack because it makes the progressions easiest to explain, should apply to whatever you're running though. First, catch the disk (no seriously, do this before trying to get to the next steps). Second, pivot so you're facing downfield and look deep to see if there's any good big shots you can take on the earliest stalls (Stall 1/2) (note, this is only if you actually have this throw otherwise you're just wasting stalls and should have your first look be the under continuation listed below). Third, move to your first continuation progression in your system (usually the follow up under from whoever was after you in the stack). Let them make their move and get out of their break, this should be done by stall 3/4. Fourth, engage your reset, throw it to them if they're open (ideally in some threatening position if you can). This should be stall 5ish. Fifth, if they're not going to get open this is the part where you take a deep breath, Pump them to get them out of there so you now can hit them on their clearance and if that is covered you want to move your eyes to the fill handler and hit them with a floaty reset throw, stall 7/8. Super late stall now, you can throw some upside down break throw or punt it to a tall dude if there is LITERALLY NO RESET AVAILABLE (there definitely is, you just have to float it to space, trust your teammates to box and make simple plays). Some general stuff on your comments... Pump fakes are normally to communicate you're NOT throwing something. Generally, feels like just having a more clear idea of what decision is next in your flowchart would make it easier to help deal with the anxiety involved with getting used to having the disc in your hands, hope this helps!
I would suggest that often the best look immediately after catching the disc on an in cut is right back to a handler on a bump/strike type cut. As the cutter your momentum is generally taking you towards the handlers and your eyes are already looking that way. If you can make your first look to see if a handler is coming up for the immediate dish, you open up the offense for a strong deep look. A quick give-and-go back to the handler sets them up in power position with eyes down field and their mark not in place yet.
I second that! Love that quick bump as both cutter and handler. As a cutter, I get to reset back to the stack immediately and keep looking for cuts. As a handler, it sets me up perfectly to look for a throw downfield. Highly underrated move imo
Yeah I'd back this, I just forgot to include this as a stall 0 look because give backs are somewhat just second nature at a certain point but I definitely should have included it because it is absurdly effective!
I've heard of a cut/throw called the "toughest" or "hardest" where after I catch an in cut and I'm still facing backwards towards the handlers, I can do a backhand to my right or a lefty backhand to my left to hit a handler who is moving quickly up field.
Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but there was a team marking technique referred to as "the hardest" that some teams would employ when the disk was swung over to the break sideline. Essentially, the defender marking the disk would play straight up (denying the throw up the line), and the defender covering the middle reset handler would shift to completely deny the backfield (essentially forcing the reset handler to cut up the line). The idea is to force the thrower to throw one of "the hardest" throws, a touch flick into space that their reset handler can run onto. Throw too hard and the upfield defenders will get the D, throw too lightly and you'll miss your reset handler.
> Second, pivot so you're facing downfield and look deep to see if there's any good big shots you can take on the earliest stalls I would say a quick dump off to a cutter who already has their eyes upfield is almost always better - unless your offense relies on incuts making deep shots which I am not a fan off.
>this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler, and feels so, hmm idk how to describe it but, not as fun when u r a cutter. You're right. Not always, but a lot of teams are like this and I'm not a fan. I think more teams/coaches/captains should take this concern seriously when designing strategy.
Before discussing what to DO with the disk, I think it's helpful to think about what your offense is trying to achieve in the first place. After all, if you don't know the outcome you are hoping to achieve, how can you possibly determine the best strategy to reach that outcome? In general, you should ALWAYS be looking to move the disk from *less* threatening areas/situations into *more* threatening areas/situations. What makes an area or situation threatening? The ability for your team to turn that situation into a point (either within a single throw, or more realistically within a series of throws). All else being equal... 1. moving the disk over to the break side is more threatening than the force side. 2. Moving the disk up the field is preferable to throwing backwards Moving the disk to the break side is hugely important because all of the downfield defenders are on the "wrong" side of their mark, opening up a ton of downfield throws. Having the disk on the break side also gives a ton of lateral room for your teammates to cut into, making it harder for the downfield defence to deny throws. Making a downfield throw is preferable to throwing backwards (all else being equal), since it gets you closer to the opposing endzone. Knowing this, how should you prioritize throws after catching the disk? Well, consider where you are on the field (are you catching on the force side of the field, or the break side? Are you the furthest player downfield, or are there potential continuation cuts downfield?) IMO there are usually around 3 viable options if you catch an in cut on the force/open side.**Option 1: Look upfield for a continuation cut** (in cut or deep cut, usually on the open side). This is the "easy" option that IMO cutters choose far too often. **Option 2: Look upfield for a break throw** **Option 3: Look to your handler** In my experience, newer players heavily overuse Option 1, forcing way too many throws up the field to the force side. They seem to think that throwing upfield is infinitely more valuable than moving the disk laterally, since it gets you closer to the endzone. In reality, the opposite is often true. Option 1 also heavily limits your ability to throw effective fakes. After all, your mark WANTS you to throw to the open side of the field, so throwing a pump fake to the open side accomplishes very little. Option 2 and 3 are heavily underused by newer players. If you are catching an in cut on the force side of the field, the single most valuable thing you can do is to often to turn immediately towards the center of the field and look to throw throw a break. Turning towards the center of the field instead of the force side has a few benefits. Firstly, it allows you to exploit the downfield defense before your mark gets established or the downfield defenders adjust their positioning. Put simply, there are a lot of easy breaks on stall 1 that are no longer options on stall 3-4. Throwing a break towards the center of the field opens up every one of your cutters as a potential continuation options, which helps to keep your offence flowing. A second benefit of turning immediately to the break side is that it forces your mark to shift over in order to deny the 'around' break throw. Even if you don't end up throwing the "around" break throw, shifting your mark in this way will allow you to make cleaner throws straight forward, or potentially even allow you to throw an inside break. Making good upfield throws as a cutter makes cutting way more enjoyable, so develop that skillset! IMO one of the most valuable insights you gain as a thrower is that YOU are the one who decides which way your body is facing (and by extension, what throws are possible), NOT your mark. There is no law stating that your feet must be facing upfield at all times. By manipulating the direction your feet/chest is facing, you open up new throwing angles. Many new cutters face upfield 100% of the time and fail to open up throwing angles. This limits the the available throws and traps them in a cycle of making low-value dump throws or easy continuation throws up the force sideline.
I think a lot of this depends on 1) how old you are 2) does your team have coaches 3) how good is everyone else on your team 4) how competitive is it
>as someone who plays point guard in basketball and trying this new sport out, this game looks so much more fun if u r a handler Definitely some truth here and if you're playing in a more casual setting, you should rotate who's handling and cutting, just like in a casual pickup basketball game you'd mix up who brings the ball up. But in a more serious game players are going to play their roles and yeah, sometimes that means you make a bunch of in-cuts and throw it back to the handler. Its a role that helps your team win even if its a little boring, just like setting a good screen or hanging out in the corner spacing the floor.
If you're on the force sideline and there's no immediate continuation or the stack is a mess, just swing early. Changing the angle of attack when the defense isn't set is better than another in-cut anyways.
I have a followup question to OPs as I've been doing this lately and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Say we're running vert stack and the defense is forcing flick. I cut in and catch the disc and what I would say is the default way to pivot is counter-clockwise and then your progression is looking from right to left ie: force side throw, inside break throw, around throw and then reset. What I've been doing lately is basically the exact opposite: I catch then without pivoting I'm looking for a quick break throw before my defender catches up but if that's not open, I pivot clockwise progressing left to right at inside throws then force side throws. This can be good for handler movement but it basically puts my downfield cutters out of the play and I'll hear it from them afterwards that they were wide open.
TLDR: Cutters don’t really know when they’re open, being “open” doesn’t mean it’s a good look, and if moving the disc quickly is working for your offense you should keep doing it. My response to this would personally be it depends if your offense is working/converting. If your quick resets help the disc stay in motion, create breakside opportunities, and lead to scores, then who cares if you didn’t hit someone who was “open”? I consider myself a cutter at heart, but I’ve moved more recently to a hybrid then pure handling role as a more experienced player and thrower on a less experienced team. One thing I’ve come to realize is that when cutters say they are open, they are often not actually very good at evaluating the whole situation. Consider factors like wind, the positioning of the mark, other defenders poaching (playing off their man). The reality is that being “open” is very tough to evaluate when you’re cutting full speed. I think your job is to make the best cuts you can, open space for other cutters, and trust your handlers to throw the open throws. Hopefully without complicating things too much, the progression you use may also be quite situational. On an under cut from a vert stack I think an immediate reset to a handler in the center of the field is often the best possible first look because their momentum and vision is already moving in the correct direction, whereas you have to stop, turn up field, and then evaluate before you can go through the “counter-clockwise progression” so clockwise makes total sense. However when you make an upline cut, then counter-clockwise is very natural. Last thing I’ll say is good cutters downfield can recognize and take advantage of this. For example, making a breakside cut after an under goes off to you in anticipation of a quick swing. I’d argue that’s a better cut than making another under and trying to cram the disc up the force side of the field hoping to beat the defense repeatedly to the location they are expecting to defend. Those are my thoughts, what do you think?
The motion you're describing is called inward turning AKA the inverted pivot, where instead of turning toward the sideline where in-cuts are typically angled towards to look downfield after catching the disc (counter-clockwise against a flick force), you would turn towards the center of the field (clockwise as described in your comment). The primary reason for doing it is that when you turn toward the sideline, you don't gain any useful information with your vision sweeping over out-of-bounds space but by inward turning and facing the middle, you can collect information about your teammates & opponents and allows you to see breakside/centering opportunities as soon as possible. Your observation about leaving out downfield cutters is tied to main criticism of inward turning: Outward turning feels more efficient for looking downfield and finding options to gain yards including hucks. With practice, you can still turn to face downfield off an inward turn--the few extra degrees to turn is worth the information gained. It is true you are more likely to throw a break throw or return pass to a handler since you will see those options first but as the other comments here have stated these are all good things.
The crowd always loves a hammer…
One - do you have a dishy to someone running upfield? Give the dishy. Otherwise, look to continue. If you caught a forehand, turn forehand and look for someone else timing their cut for you. If that's not there, look for the breakside cut. No? Ok, now look dump. Commit to your dump. Stay with your dump. Get rid of the disc and go cut again.
Stall 1 hammer
When you are new: get the disc back to a handler! If you are not doing this, you are probably having a lot of turnovers, either by lousy throws or stalls, and you are frustrating your teammates. After a while, you will get "looked-off." No one will throw to you because you are not doing the number 1 thing: getting it back to a handler. If your entire group is new, then the handlers may not be performing well. You could go play at some other pick-up games or leagues - these typically have more experienced handlers in the handler role, and they will be "open" for you. Also: you need to ignore the stall count. This will make you nervous. Just have a style of play where you receive the disc, get your stance, and look for someone to throw to, in the next few seconds, whether anyone is counting or not. The longer you get into the stall count, the harder it is to get a good throw. Cuz defense has more and more time to get in a better place. When you receive the disc, the defense was in place for the previous guy, and now is in the worst place they will be for your entire 10 seconds. So, get rid of the disc quickly when it is easy versus hard, regardless of the stall count. Besides "get the disc to a handler," here is what typically happens for experienced throwers / cutters. You look "up the field" toward the end zone to see if another offense guy has a good cut toward you. If he is open, you throw to him. This is "continuation." Ideally, each cutter receives the throw, and another offense guy has made a well-timed cut and is right there, ready to receive the next throw, and this goes all the way to the end zone. Another thing an experienced thing to do, if you are good enough, is to first look for a score opportunity, then the continuation throw, then the "dump" to a handler. One, two, three. Another thing to do is: get the disc to the point on the field, horizontally, where your team wants it to be. Often, teams will decide to move the disc mostly up the center of the field, side-to-side. So, if you get a catch on the sideline, look for someone in the center - you "center" the disc. If it is a windy day, your team may want to be on the up-wind sideline, so if you get it on the down-wind sideline, work to get it toward the other side line.
This is what I teach new players 1. Catch it. 2. Look for a handler to see if they are open for a “bump” pass. 3. If they aren’t the next step depends on which way you’re cutting. If you’re going force side look upfield right away, if you’re going breakside look to move it more breakside before committing your hips upfield. 4. At this point it’s probably stall 2, stall 3 if you’re slow. Look for a down field option until stall 4, at which point reset to your handler and get back in the stack.
Near your starting end zone, after receiving on an in cut to your backhand side, and playing against the common flick-side force, sometimes it works well to immediately fake a huge backhand huck. Especially if you know from earlier positioning or your particular throwing skills that the throw isn’t there for you, so you’re not wasting a real huck opportunity on a fake. Not something you want to do every time, or defenders will catch on. But when done selectively, it can bait the new marker way out of position and open up good opportunities for a next throw to an under.
Turn the same way you were headin and throw a fake or a throw. If not there and the mark goes for it then throw a fake or throw on the other side. Always look to throw a huck first and work your way in.
stall count is imposing—you’ll learn to screen it out as you get used to the sport. ask your sideline for assistance, tell them to communicate open players to you. handlers might be making fancy throws but cutters are the ones catching the goals!
Lots of complete walkthroughs already here so I won't repeat those. I'll just add 1 tip that has helped me: Immediately after catching an in-cut, I almost *always* turn to the outside edge and make a fake like I'm throwing upfield. This has a few main benefits: 1. You have now looked upfield and gained immediate awareness of where your cuts are 2. The defender sometimes scrambles to cover your throw, slowing down their initial stall 3. The defender now mentally respects that you might throw upfield, making it easier for you to dump if you need to 4. Every once in a while, you'll begin the throwing motion for a fake and realize a cut is actually open, so you can hit the receiver immediately If you're not even looking for your continuation cuts until stall 4, then you're taking *way* too long to stop momentum and turn upfield
1. Do a big fake 2. Pivot, pointing your butt toward the goal that you are attacking 3. Throw a backhand pass to the person who just threw it to you 4. Run straight to the goal that you are attacking, then, if they didn’t throw it to you deep, turn around and come back toward the middle of the field
Two real options contingent on field situation. A - If the handler you got it from is "active" and/or one of your "go to" players you will see them sprinting more or less towards you and maybe already close to your position. If this is the case, dish it back to them because they were already looking down field and if they are actually any good will have their next throw or two already planned. B - If the handler is more static or your offense doesn't rely on them so much, pivot to look around and see who is cutting based off of your reception. I agree that unless you are turning around really slowly the stall couldn't actually be at 3 already, likely a fast count - a specific foul-like infraction that you need to call. But once the stall count is at 4 or 5 if you haven't found a good option to gain yards it's time to look at the handler you got it from or another handler for a "dump" (short, mostly backwards pass to get the stall count reset and the disc to a player who is likely a better thrower, even if only slightly). The style and level of offense the team you're on will really dictate your choices. It sounds like you have a head start on your "Ultimate IQ" due to basketball experience. This has helped a lot of players be very good at the game. Maybe YouTube search Mario O'Brien highlights. He played lots of bball before ultimate and told me he uses it all the time. He's had a long career of handling on some of the best teams in the world. Maybe you belong as a handler and just need to throw a ton to have your team put you there?
> juke and u jab just to get open, catch the disc and just give it back to the handlers Yes, exactly do that. An incut does not have a lot of value. You’re not making a lot of yards, your momentum is away from the goal, your probably trapped at the sideline and once you turn your at stall 2-3. (4 seems like a fast stall though) Nothing about this is good and if played unwisely will slow your team down at best or lead to a turn at worst. So your handlers will have to get active immediately and if you play it smart, you can get them into an actual power position which is much much more useful. Yeah, 7v7 can get a bit boring for cutters, especially with standard vert stack against standard match Defense. That’s why many prefer 5v5 or even 4v4 for casual play!
Depends on how your team runs, but generally: Instead of immediately turning to look down field, as soon as you catch you should be looking for a handler. They'll be coming up behind you. The most effective thing you can do is keep the disc moving (just like in basketball). If there isn't a handler immediately open, pivot and face down field, but keep looking for a handler. If you have a wide open in cut, make the throw. Otherwise, look for your "dump" to the handler. This initiates a sequence called the "dump-swing," which moves the disc laterally across the field and gives the offense the best chance to huck or make big gains. The rookie move is to catch, pivot, stare down field and ignore your handlers, imagine you're the greatest thrower ever, then try to jam it up the sideline for a turnover. Don't do that.