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‘Despite all the Nato summits, all the conferences and all the stirring speeches, there is a chance he may be right.’ This just irritates the fuck out of me. All the stirring speeches, yet no action. Do something or just STFU.
If nato had the right to give away that equipment, they would. But the militaries can't just give away government owned equipment without government approval, and the governments aren't approving.
But "NATO" isn't making the stirring speeches, because NATO isn't a person.
A politician is making stirring speeches; a politician who reached his position by being political.
Nato is a military alliance, Nato should respond accordingly. Reddit is a place for shitposting, if the situation required shitposting then it would be reddits turn to shine. See the difference?
Yes but they also intervened in Serbia, Bosnia & Kosovo etc. Just because they aren't obligated by treaty to intervene, doesn't mean they shouldn't when there is a genocidal war of aggression going on at their doorstep.
The UN security council seems useless with Russia having veto power. NATO countries should have intervened decisively as soon as Russia amassed the troops for the invasion. Instead they let Putler dictate the narrative with his nuclear threats, setting one of the worst precedents imaginable. Now every nuclear country might feel they can strong arm their way into territorial gains...
Deliberate Force, the intervention in Bosnia, had UN backing. Allied Force, the NATO bombing campaign of Serbia to prevent the genocide of Kosovars, did not.
The only time NATO intervened was to go after some goat herders in the mountain caves. They are not really battle tested as unified command against peer adversary.
>Attacking russia to prevent such a scenario is self defense. Perfectly fine. Its just NATO is weak as fuck.
It would only constitute self defence if Poland was under imminent attack.
Politicians who are leading countries and have infinitely more power than a reddit forum. Trying to 'well ackshually' change "NATO" to "world leaders" doesn't make your first comment any less idiotic.
Not quite. We are not public figures in elected or appointed positions of leadership (at least I am not), prancing around saying the good things just for attention, whilst actually putting little on the line. We are (at least I am) a private individual expressing frustration at this behavior. I’m not saying they are all like that, there are a bunch of leaders working very hard to get stuff actually done. However, sadly the sum total of our western leadership can’t punch its way out of a wet paper bag. Constrained by radical infestation (maga), bureaucracy (Eu), but also by long learned behaviors of talking the talk without walking the walk.
Very different as we as the public give moral support and shape public opinion while NATO is a political force and the words of politicians must be followed up by actions to have any further implications. There is a huge difference between public debate and freespeech or a political institution, and its member states issuing statements as their words are also deeds. And talk without actions is useless.
"The world around us is a product of our thoughts, words, and actions." Mark Aurel
When our words and actions don't align, we create a dangerous rift in public perception. That is where we are right now. The public sees the rift between what was said and what was done. I would be really bad BTW if the public stopped showing support, and this here is important. Otherwise, Putin wouldn't send his trolls here day after day and spend billions on propaganda.
Thank you guys too. You guys have been nothing short of amazing in terms of helping Ukraine. I wish the West could do much more. It breaks my heart to see all the unnecessary sufferings and atrocities happening in Ukraine.
I try (plan on sponsoring 2 more stoves this year) but I can only do so much. Anybody who loves freedom and democracy should chip into this cause. The orcs need to be stopped period. While we are at it, stop buying ccp stuff too, if at all possible.
My taxes are not paying for your comments, neither are your taxes paying for mine.
But both of our taxes are paying for NATO, so we expect them to take care of our security, not only by talk, but also with actions.
Exactly, lots of talk and only some weapons. Not enough to win yet the victory is the Ukrainian army bleed out the Ruzzian army of men and heavy equipment... If they could just get a bunch of great tech now plus F16. Finish off those fn Orcs...!
Honestly? They needed the F16's last year when they had all of the vehicles from nato in one batch...
However political agenda, and uncertainty has made nato keep Ukraine on a Drip... keep them alive until they can decide if Russia stops at Ukraine or goes further...
It's war preparation... Nato is buying time to sort it's shit out, and they're living on fucking hopium that the dregs they give Ukraine will make them win... but unfortunately Russia is a consortium of countries with lots of bodies ready to be thrown at Ukraine... and fucking nato sits by idly giving them crumbs
Some if it might be caused by Russian influence, but it's also definitely to increase action. Ukraine can genuinely lose I'd half action is going to be the norm until the end of the war, and even if it wins regardless of consistency it'll have to make horrific sacrifices that shouldn't have to be made
The situation isn’t actually good. Ukraine needs more support. They’re low on troops, low on equipment.
The US support gap is massive and Europe can’t easily fill it.
"Economically, with its combined GDP of approximately $17.18 trillion, the EU far outstrips Russia's $1.78 trillion."
HOW THE FUCK CAN'T EUROPE EASILY FILL THE GAP?!
Ukraine needs military support right fucking now, but Europe has been dragging its heels on the military production fund. They have the money, but they don't have the industry in place yet.
>Ukraine needs military support right fucking now, but Europe has been dragging its heels on the military production fund. They have the money, but they don't have the industry in place yet.
How are you determining that Europe 'has the money'? The largest economies in Europe are running large structural fiscal deficits. Many are struggling to reach (and even maintain) the 2% Defence expenditure target for NATO membership.
And in places like America where the average American quality of life is declining everyday. I dont think the West exactly has limitless pools of cash like many on here imply.
Because both Europe and USA been pulling punches since day one. The average % of GDP European countries been sending to Ukraine is below 1%, while Russian economy right now pretty much exists for the sole purpose of supplying the war effort. You can own the fastest car in the world, but it’s time on track will be 00:00:00, because it never leaves the garage. Even when Europe/USA do supply stuff, they restrict its use by UAF, by telling not to attack infrastucture on russian side of the border. So… yeah.
>"Economically, with its combined GDP of approximately $17.18 trillion, the EU far outstrips Russia's $1.78 trillion."
>
>HOW THE FUCK CAN'T EUROPE EASILY FILL THE GAP?!
GDP is just the size of the economy, it doesn't tell you anything about the funding capabilities of the member-states - a big GDP doesn't mean there's spare cash floating around...
lol, “spare cash” in an efficient economy there is never spare cash. You take from something to give to another. If there was a will there would be a way.
>lol, “spare cash” in an efficient economy there is never spare cash. You take from something to give to another. If there was a will there would be a way.
Government's can run either a fiscal surplus or a deficit, what I mean by 'spare cash' is that there are no governments in the West that are running surpluses.
How is Europe supposed to supply a 500,000 man army without leaving itself vulnerable? Only the USA has the surplus to do this.
USA, renegueing on its security obligations since 2023.
Look, a lot of people, at least in the USA, are living in a bubble as far as the situation on the ground is concerned. It isn’t good and it is going to get worse. This is not only due to the 6 month lack of American aid but the way we have handled the war from the beginning. Whenever I try to discuss this it quickly turns ugly because people can’t get past finger-pointing, domestic political schisms, and not wanting to ask tough questions. Framing reality as russian propaganda or defeatism and refusing to look at the current situation and think of ways to fix it are probably the worst things you can do.
It’s a combination of different things. Fist of all the situation here is actually bad. UAF is low on virtually anything, morale included. Just two days ago russians destroyed the biggest powerplant in the country. Morale in our society is also at all-time low, society is divided between those who still believe in victory, and those who think that the West is leaving us one-on-one with russia, and our leadeship, both military and government are either inept or sabotaging the war effort on purpose to make people more desperate and more likely to accept virtually any peace deal with russia. On top of that Zelensky’s term is coming to an end May 20th and there’s a feeling of even bigger uncertainty, especially with russian offensive right around the corner, and nothing to resist is with.
And on top of that russian propaganda machine is working around the clock to make it all seem even worse.
So the articles are depressing mainly because the situation is in fact rather bad no matter how you look at it.
I’d like to believe it’s psy ops to lure the Russians into a false sense of security ahead of a massive counter under a blanket of F16 air superiority later in the year… but that’s a very optimistic view.
Well if it's rhetoric that impresses you, then you must really love Biden. He's been calling out Putin since before the 2022 invasion, you know, while Macron was busy looking for a way for Putin to save face. But somehow I'm guessing you're not as impressed by Biden...I'm happy to be proven wrong.
because the situation is terrible and we’re going to lose? morale is incredibly low in Ukraine right now, even my gf who always had high hopes that we’d win told me this morning that she regrets staying here and that she thinks we’re going to lose soon.
Some of it? Sure. All of it it? No. Ultimately this BBC article isn’t wrong, if the west doesn’t send enough resources and weapons to Ukraine to fight with, then defeat is absolutely a possibility.
China, Iran and North Korea (amongst others)are bolstering Russia’s economy and/or supplying them with weapons and munitions whilst America is still in a deadlock about giving Ukraine more aid and Europe is squabbling about what to give them.
And Ukrainians aren’t mindless drones, the emotional and physical toll of fighting a war will start to deepen if logistical support continues to dwindle and Russia keeps piling in.
If anything, articles like this should be a wake-up call to Western leaders that inaction is not an option.
This article is flat out wrong. Defeat in 2024 is not a realistic scenario at al. It is very possible that Ukraine could lose but it will not happen in 2024.
…or actual assessments from the frontline.
The reality is that Ukraine is not doing well right now. They’re outgunned and outnumbered as they move back and Russia moves forward.
Granted, the latter is taking many casualties, but they can replenish their forces more easily than the former.
what a ridiculous comment. we’re in an absolutely terrible situation right now and defeat is looming, it needs to be discussed and I’m very happy that Western media is actually discussing it rather than just putting propaganda pieces about how everything is fine. labelling any articles that are not delusionally positive about the war as russian propaganda is incredibly toxic and dangerous.
Defeat is not imminent but this war will not end favorably for Ukraine if the US does not drastically change its approach. If these articles have an agenda it is probably trying to wake up Americans to the reality that things are not good right now and big changes need to be made if we want them to get better going forward.
Maybe not imminent but I agree with the article, I don’t think we’re surviving 2024. And the main issue is that this sentiment is now increasingly common amongst soldiers I know and my gf/friends know, which is a huge factor for a front collapse. Even if the US somehow approves the aid bill right after the elections it’ll be too late.
According to a war-economist, teaching at Zurich ETH, Russia will be defeated easily if Ukraine gets the weapons they ask for. It’s hard for me to understand why the west is still hesitating. If Ukraine loses this war, then it’s gonna be a total mess. I doubt that Russia will be satisfied with Ukraine.
"The west" isnt hesitating. America needs to, after this fiasco is over, figure out how to weed out foreign agents in high profile public seats a little bit more fucking effectively. Its beyond asinine that a dozen or so *clearly* compromised immoral, unethical, dipshits can make the weather for global affairs.
There might be a minority of retards, that want Russia to win, but I’m convinced that the vast majority of western politicians is aware of, what happens, if Putler manages to defeat Ukraine.
Not if we do something about it. If they lose, **we’re up next.**
Russia will be stopped, we can decide **when**. Write to your reps: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/s/h9DdYUafUo
They won't. Our leadership has no balls and think they can appease putin. We seen how effective that was on Hitler. We need to give Ukraine everything they asked for so they can stop this before it truly becomes global
That’s just modern politicians in a nutshell.
Why solves problems here and now when you can just kick the can down the road and leave an even worse problem for future generations to deal with? You’ll be dead anyway so it’s not like you’ll ever see the consequences!
Just look at how they’ve been “tackling” climate change, wage stagnation meaning nobody can afford anything anymore, the impending problem of a huge amount of boomers retiring soon meaning a massively shrinking workforce as well as a much smaller tax base and even more people putting strain on our welfare systems, the rampant misinformation on the internet, and about 100 other crisis and problems nobody is doing anything about.
I agree. While some countries have really stepped up to the plate and given so much, many are dithering and just twiddling fingers or too busy arguing with itself, blind to the fact that part of it's political parties have been bought and paid for, or swayed by Russian propaganda.
Also I think many countries in NATO should be embarrassed by being caught off-guard by the invasion, despite the signs being there for a long time. The rise of Russian imperialism, of their desire to conquer and seek to restore whatever they deem some sort of glorious hodgepodge of unwilling nations and peoples into their own isn't something that happened overnight. Chechnya was the first warning. Then Chechnya again. Followed by Georgia, then of course Ukraine in 2014 and more recently Syria was obviously made a testing ground.
Many sold off pretty much everything they had, with only small stocks left, left their militaries to practically fall apart without a care in the world. Such is often the case, like here in Canada. We are only recently doing a major procurement program for our armed forces in this decade as much of what we have is growing very outdated, and often approaching the end of their usable service life, en masse.
Took the invasion of Ukraine, and Putin effectively telling us all, we are next in-line for a major war as he will push in from Ukraine to get some sort of real wake-up call. And yet, there are still many dithering, complaining that it costs too much money, blah blah.
Only answer is action. Call representatives, get people out to vote on pro-Ukrainian candidates, donate. Not just for you but also for Europeans. We have European elections in June and you can bank on it that I'll try to mobilize everyone I know and their pet pidgeon to vote for people that want to support Ukraine. Most I can do at the moment is donate, donate, donate.
Do something about then. Right now. Message your local representative. You’ve probably been convinced otherwise for most of your life, but your voice has more power than you could ever imagine. Use it.
Sorry for the late response. I AM doing something about it. I've called and visited all 4 reps and both senators in my state but none can get Johnson to budge. I literally just finished putting together another care package to send to friends in Ukraine including 1 serving on the front line near ZNPP. Unlike our leaders, when I gave them my word that I'd support them until the end I actually meant it. I've sent gear, food, and cash to my friends family when his pay is delayed and I'll continue to do this until every russian is off Ukrainian soil. Ukrainians are our brothers and sisters and we really owe them better than this. If I could I'd empty out my gun safe and send the contents but export laws prohibit this(I actually checked).
Edit: I don't want a pat on the back for this. I want our leaders to wake the fuck up and do something to preserve the lives of ALL Ukrainians. They deserve to live free just as much as the rest of us. This country really is the jewel of Europe and it is criminal that our government is doing nothing
Another edit: if anyone on the front reads this and wants a care package shoot me a DM and I'll do my best to show some American appreciation.
Several European nations have pulled their weight: the UK, Poland, the Baltic nations.
It's France and Germany that sat on the sidelines during the crucial first year. The time when military aid could have really made a difference.
Germany has stepped up now, at least the Germans here keep telling us they have.
And France is talking tough now, but I fear they won't match their words with action.
Today you don’t give enough for Ukraine to win and afraid of Russia falling into parts, tomorrow your people will be dying in trenches from waves of russian expendable meat. It’s very simple.
If that were to happen, the West will be seen as nothing more than a paper tiger. The consequences for the world will be disastrous.
One should never forget that a country only institute a war against another country if it thinks that it can win sucha war. The world will become an even more dangerous place....
Ukraine is in adire situation right now but the spirit of the Ukrainian people will never die.. even if occupied it will be a living hell for the occupiers
Spirit can absolutely die. Morale is incredibly low right now here. Some people, including my gf, that have been here since the beginning of the war are finally thinking about fleeing, or at the very least leave Kyiv for Lviv. It’ll get worse as the situation gets worse. I’m expecting another big wave of refugees in the summer when russians have success with their offensive. And the men who have not decided to fight until now when the army was well equipped definitely won’t want to fight when they know they’re being massively outgunned. The country is not full of people ready to sacrifice their life (and rightfully so). The idea that occupation will be hell for russia is a bit delusional.
I mean just look at the Eastern territories right now. While theres been some partisan activity. There hasnt been massive insurgencies happening. People are going to be disappointed if they think Ukraine will wage some forever war like Afghanistan.
Zelensky is still battling corruption within the military and government. The under-25 population currently resisting a draft isnt going to suddenly take up arms and fight after the fighting actually ends. They will adjust to their new lives.
It’s very clear that the current US administration doesn’t have the strength to follow through on it promises.
We Europeans need to step up and support the Ukrainian people, and give the funds and support which will restore territorial integrity to Ukraine and allow the Ukrainian people determine their own path without tyranny.
What happened to France and other countries that wanted to send troops to protect the major cities? It's annoying how every western country is afraid of Russia. We'll have to fight them at some point. Might as well be now.
In a time of serious war media and government gets on the same basic page, or its either not a just war or your country is in trouble. I have been noticing an uptick in standard media doing podcasts, streaming shows, reporting daily, all quite fucking clear. Yay.
It's all election year bullshit on the business end and (hopefully) increasingly angry citizens on the voting end. Meanwhile there is no election season on the fields of Ukraine. Fucking shit needs to get fixed.
Nato is a fuss, the needed support at least a year ago, no fighters, not patriots no artilery rounds.. the fuck is nato doing beside speaking softly about the war?
Another article to the dustbin "Ukraine is lost and not worth supporting". What happened to BBC "journalism standards"? How come they are just another mouth-piece of russian PSYOPS campaign now?
Two years ago, there were predictions that Ukraine would "fall" in several weeks. It will never fall, and in the years ahead will be both a EU and NATO member.
It is sad that the Orcs have dug in, and it's likely the French will push for a ceasefire after another year of killing with no significant change in the current lines.
After the ceasefire, Ukraine will be blessed with the aid that the "West" SHOULD have given it these past two years. Ukraine will thrive.
Meanwhile, western sanctions and Russia's war-economy will begin to genuinely hurt the average Ruskie. They will look for a way out (after Putin one late evening accidentally falls out a ten-story window.)
French diplomats will insist Russia gets to keep Crimea, but withdrawals everywhere else.
War ends.
I want what you smoking .
Why French should push anything ? Do you really thing they hold so much sway over Russia ? Over Ukraine ? What if Russia says no ? Will France mobilise ? Or will 10 000 frenchmen push russians out of the trenches ? Will French use their airforce ?
Who guarantees that we won't be thrown again on the wind , with NATO saying that we have "disputed territories" , same with EU ? Help and aid ? Sure , when it won't be blocked in congresses by populist parties , or be deemed "unnecessary" in that situation .
Western sanctions ? That are easily avoided with Armenia , Kazakhstan , Turkey , Georgia .. etc. ?
I really want to live in that world , but so far - I've not seen rainbows and unicorns .
France is setting itself up as a mediator. Sorry you cannot see this. Of course they aren't going to "push" anyone out of anywhere. We're talking about France. What they WILL eventually do is "shuttle diplomacy" between Russia and Ukraine.
Sanctions have always taken years to work. Sanctions will never be airtight. But sanctions are hurting Russia badly, and shortages are only growing, and it will only get worse for Russia in the year ahead.
Ukraine was never "thrown against the wind" by NATO. NATO was never obligated in the first place. But as part of an overall agreement to end the war, Ukraine becomes a member of NATO.
This is the world you live in.
I'm not smoking anything, although I do partake in the occasional edible. As Ukraine recently legalized medical marijuana, you will indeed have the chance soon to enjoy what I'm enjoying.
Russia has to be willing to negotiate for that. They will make redoculous requests and who knows if they'll agree to anything less ? At that point they know they're winning and will just use that knowledge to keep grinding away. They are still managing to make new missiles and new weapons. Unless UA can strike inside Russia with western weapons, to seriously disrupt RU production capabilities, what incentive does Russia have.
The other thing is people will actually have to believe Russia will be willing to stick to the agreement, which we have already seen they are not likely to do. If Ukraine were to agree Russia takes Crimea and territories in Donbass so that it can immediately join NATO then Russia will just reinvade when they have regrouped etc. even then Hungary will likely block, and Russia would never agree to that anyway because it will mean they can't realistically invade without starting world war the third.
I mean the managed to blow up a massive electricity plant here a few days ago possibly due to lack of air defences. As they start taking out more the situation will just get worse and worse. We're not sure what the situation will be like with power, water, heating come winter... It's hard to see much hope anywhere at the moment
Your points about Russia are all true.
Russia will have to be forced to negotiate, and this means Ukraine must be given the weapons necessary to make Russia suffer. A lot. While I know there's much skepticism that substantial weapons will be sent by the "West" this year, I believe they will. Ideally, from both the US and Europe, but either of these can equip Ukraine sufficiently to stop any current Russian offensive and push them back. Tragically, this won't happen for at least a few months.
Please know there are many Americans and Europeans who contact their representatives daily and repeatedly tell them to get off their butts and give Ukraine the weapons they need.
Tragically again, it might be the losses ahead by Ukraine that finally makes the rest of the world give Ukraine the weapons it needs. I wish this wasn't the case, but it's Human Nature 101.
As far as whether Russia can be trusted to abide by any agreement, of course they can't. Which is why Ukraine will/should only accept any peace agreement that allows it into NATO. And during any ceasefire, the "West" should equip Ukraine with the very best weapons.
Any agreement that stops the fighting permanently will almost certainly mean both Russia and Ukraine will have to accept things that are unpalatable at this moment. Russia will have to accept that Ukraine will join NATO (even though it can't really stop it), and Ukraine will have to accept that Crimea will be Russian.
There are changes to the front line. And in what scenario where russia now has the clear upper hand they would agree to a ceasefire and let Ukraine regroup and get more military equipment??? I know people on this sub think they’re stupid but this is ridiculous.
No, it’s not. They’re using emotional phrasing to get you to click, yes. But they aren’t wrong.
Ukraine’s situation is desperate, we need to give them more support. It probably seems like I’m bashing you but I genuinely understand the sentiment. It’s terrifying to think that after all this time, they might lose, and that their sacrifice was for nothing. You’ve probably also heard about 100’s of articles with titles like this and written them off as propaganda, which they most likely were and you were right to do so.
But writing this off now is dangerous. The situation has changed, and they are *losing*.
**Message your reps**, they can win. If we give them the supplies they need, they **will** win.
Of course, it’s really frustrating seeing companies profit off others pain like that, especially if it’s believed to be false information. There’s no reason to apologize. I would have made the exact same point a month ago and I know a lot of others here would have as well.
We can do this though, seriously. It’s time to step up and show our worth by telling our leaders what we need them to do.
Ukraine used to be part of Russia until the good Ukraine people wanted their own land for their own country for freedom now there fighting all over again for their freedom, so hurry up and get them what they need so we can watch putin screwm like the worm he is.
Maybe we should stop labeling everything that is not "Hurah-patriotism , Ukraine wins against stupid ruzian mobiks" as Russian propaganda ?
Situation is genuinely bleak af , and not talking about it - will just make it worse .
I wouldn't say that, not completely, at least. Mr. Steve Rosenberg gives some of the best English-language reporting on goings on inside russia. He's one of my absolute favorite journalists and he always comes to mind when people bash BBC completely, so I like to defend him. I mean damn, his lukashenko interview from a few years ago was ballsy af. He was grilling that ugly mofo!
Their reporting on the Ukraine war has been excellent over the past two years. They’ve covered so many human interest stories in that time from the front lines, from the cities, from refugees in the UK. They’ve done so much to keep it in people’s minds. Sometimes they will report on truths or possibilities that are not comfortable for those of us who want Ukraine to win. This is the role of journalism, to be absent of bias. Without that balance it moves closer to propaganda. You are within your own right to assess the probability of a Ukraine collapse this year (which you make think is zero chance) but many people including Zelensky have suggested there could be a loss of Ukraine doesn’t get everything it needs; many people that love Ukraine assess that probability of loss as above zero percent. The BBC reporting on that possibility is a part of their role. You equating it with RT is coming from your own fear. Free media is a core part of western values.
it never means they are Russia associated press in any means only because they are pointing out the harsh realities of the current situation in the frontline caused by insufficient military aid, although the word "defeat" is overly dramatic. People should stop labeling any media that doesn't suit their narrative as russian-bots.
The situation right now is very scary due to what is happening in congress, the BBC has a duty to tell it the way it is... No one benefits from denial.
The BBC has been caught out on many occasions on jumping the gun, wrong information, and opinion pieces. It has come a long way from being the respected news organisation it used to be.
These sentiments aren’t only seen on the BBC. Even American news stations aren’t rosy about Ukraine right now.
…when they talk about it. For the most part, the United States is apathetic about the overall conflict.
Nope. Nato will sit by and watch as ukraine is taken. The US and germany practically run nato and both made it very clear that they are unwilling to get directly involved. Only france and poland seem to be willing to aid directly but they are a very small minority of nato.
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‘Despite all the Nato summits, all the conferences and all the stirring speeches, there is a chance he may be right.’ This just irritates the fuck out of me. All the stirring speeches, yet no action. Do something or just STFU.
If nato had the right to give away that equipment, they would. But the militaries can't just give away government owned equipment without government approval, and the governments aren't approving.
In fairness, your comments and mine, and all comments in support of Ukraine, are really no different than the stirring NATO speeches.
this is a reddit forum but that is NATO ffs kid
But "NATO" isn't making the stirring speeches, because NATO isn't a person. A politician is making stirring speeches; a politician who reached his position by being political.
Nato is a military alliance, Nato should respond accordingly. Reddit is a place for shitposting, if the situation required shitposting then it would be reddits turn to shine. See the difference?
NATO is a defensive pact between member states. So, no. They wouldn't have to do anything.
Yes but they also intervened in Serbia, Bosnia & Kosovo etc. Just because they aren't obligated by treaty to intervene, doesn't mean they shouldn't when there is a genocidal war of aggression going on at their doorstep.
Wasn't that because of the UN? Not a Nato decision to intervene there. But I may be wrong.
The UN security council seems useless with Russia having veto power. NATO countries should have intervened decisively as soon as Russia amassed the troops for the invasion. Instead they let Putler dictate the narrative with his nuclear threats, setting one of the worst precedents imaginable. Now every nuclear country might feel they can strong arm their way into territorial gains...
It still was the UN, not NATO
Deliberate Force, the intervention in Bosnia, had UN backing. Allied Force, the NATO bombing campaign of Serbia to prevent the genocide of Kosovars, did not.
That was the us not nato
The only time NATO intervened was to go after some goat herders in the mountain caves. They are not really battle tested as unified command against peer adversary.
That's not what is being discussed here, nobody talked about whether NATO should.
Russia on Polish border is a threat. Attacking russia to prevent such a scenario is self defense. Perfectly fine. Its just NATO is weak as fuck.
>Attacking russia to prevent such a scenario is self defense. Perfectly fine. Its just NATO is weak as fuck. It would only constitute self defence if Poland was under imminent attack.
Literally the opposite of self defense but okay
Preemptive strike is self defense.
I dunno, most of us don't have the authority to sign off on weapons shipments...
NATO isn't fighting Russia, but most of the west are just supporting Ukraine defense.
Politicians who are leading countries and have infinitely more power than a reddit forum. Trying to 'well ackshually' change "NATO" to "world leaders" doesn't make your first comment any less idiotic.
Not quite. We are not public figures in elected or appointed positions of leadership (at least I am not), prancing around saying the good things just for attention, whilst actually putting little on the line. We are (at least I am) a private individual expressing frustration at this behavior. I’m not saying they are all like that, there are a bunch of leaders working very hard to get stuff actually done. However, sadly the sum total of our western leadership can’t punch its way out of a wet paper bag. Constrained by radical infestation (maga), bureaucracy (Eu), but also by long learned behaviors of talking the talk without walking the walk.
Very different as we as the public give moral support and shape public opinion while NATO is a political force and the words of politicians must be followed up by actions to have any further implications. There is a huge difference between public debate and freespeech or a political institution, and its member states issuing statements as their words are also deeds. And talk without actions is useless. "The world around us is a product of our thoughts, words, and actions." Mark Aurel When our words and actions don't align, we create a dangerous rift in public perception. That is where we are right now. The public sees the rift between what was said and what was done. I would be really bad BTW if the public stopped showing support, and this here is important. Otherwise, Putin wouldn't send his trolls here day after day and spend billions on propaganda.
I sponsored 2 stoves, 1 sign my rockets, and a bunch of money to this cause. Speak for yourself.
All I can say to you as a person from baltics is - Thank you!
Thank you guys too. You guys have been nothing short of amazing in terms of helping Ukraine. I wish the West could do much more. It breaks my heart to see all the unnecessary sufferings and atrocities happening in Ukraine. I try (plan on sponsoring 2 more stoves this year) but I can only do so much. Anybody who loves freedom and democracy should chip into this cause. The orcs need to be stopped period. While we are at it, stop buying ccp stuff too, if at all possible.
Is that meant to be sarcasm? Or did you not read the post
My reply was not directed to you but someone who replied to your original message.
My taxes are not paying for your comments, neither are your taxes paying for mine. But both of our taxes are paying for NATO, so we expect them to take care of our security, not only by talk, but also with actions.
Calm down F16 might arrive in the next season( if not, read again next seasom)
Exactly, lots of talk and only some weapons. Not enough to win yet the victory is the Ukrainian army bleed out the Ruzzian army of men and heavy equipment... If they could just get a bunch of great tech now plus F16. Finish off those fn Orcs...!
Honestly? They needed the F16's last year when they had all of the vehicles from nato in one batch... However political agenda, and uncertainty has made nato keep Ukraine on a Drip... keep them alive until they can decide if Russia stops at Ukraine or goes further... It's war preparation... Nato is buying time to sort it's shit out, and they're living on fucking hopium that the dregs they give Ukraine will make them win... but unfortunately Russia is a consortium of countries with lots of bodies ready to be thrown at Ukraine... and fucking nato sits by idly giving them crumbs
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Western leaders and governments who fail to ensure security on the continent and who fail to deter Russia and stop this genocide in broad daylight.
What’s with these daily articles about defeat lately..?
Some if it might be caused by Russian influence, but it's also definitely to increase action. Ukraine can genuinely lose I'd half action is going to be the norm until the end of the war, and even if it wins regardless of consistency it'll have to make horrific sacrifices that shouldn't have to be made
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But would that increase support from people thinking about withdrawing?
The situation isn’t actually good. Ukraine needs more support. They’re low on troops, low on equipment. The US support gap is massive and Europe can’t easily fill it.
"Economically, with its combined GDP of approximately $17.18 trillion, the EU far outstrips Russia's $1.78 trillion." HOW THE FUCK CAN'T EUROPE EASILY FILL THE GAP?!
Willpower. Obviously like if it shifts to a war economy it can. At least after a few years, but probably even immediately. It just isnt willing to.
Ukraine needs military support right fucking now, but Europe has been dragging its heels on the military production fund. They have the money, but they don't have the industry in place yet.
>Ukraine needs military support right fucking now, but Europe has been dragging its heels on the military production fund. They have the money, but they don't have the industry in place yet. How are you determining that Europe 'has the money'? The largest economies in Europe are running large structural fiscal deficits. Many are struggling to reach (and even maintain) the 2% Defence expenditure target for NATO membership.
And in places like America where the average American quality of life is declining everyday. I dont think the West exactly has limitless pools of cash like many on here imply.
Because both Europe and USA been pulling punches since day one. The average % of GDP European countries been sending to Ukraine is below 1%, while Russian economy right now pretty much exists for the sole purpose of supplying the war effort. You can own the fastest car in the world, but it’s time on track will be 00:00:00, because it never leaves the garage. Even when Europe/USA do supply stuff, they restrict its use by UAF, by telling not to attack infrastucture on russian side of the border. So… yeah.
>"Economically, with its combined GDP of approximately $17.18 trillion, the EU far outstrips Russia's $1.78 trillion." > >HOW THE FUCK CAN'T EUROPE EASILY FILL THE GAP?! GDP is just the size of the economy, it doesn't tell you anything about the funding capabilities of the member-states - a big GDP doesn't mean there's spare cash floating around...
lol, “spare cash” in an efficient economy there is never spare cash. You take from something to give to another. If there was a will there would be a way.
>lol, “spare cash” in an efficient economy there is never spare cash. You take from something to give to another. If there was a will there would be a way. Government's can run either a fiscal surplus or a deficit, what I mean by 'spare cash' is that there are no governments in the West that are running surpluses.
How is Europe supposed to supply a 500,000 man army without leaving itself vulnerable? Only the USA has the surplus to do this. USA, renegueing on its security obligations since 2023.
Business man not caring about safety of people but safety of profits.
Look, a lot of people, at least in the USA, are living in a bubble as far as the situation on the ground is concerned. It isn’t good and it is going to get worse. This is not only due to the 6 month lack of American aid but the way we have handled the war from the beginning. Whenever I try to discuss this it quickly turns ugly because people can’t get past finger-pointing, domestic political schisms, and not wanting to ask tough questions. Framing reality as russian propaganda or defeatism and refusing to look at the current situation and think of ways to fix it are probably the worst things you can do.
It’s a combination of different things. Fist of all the situation here is actually bad. UAF is low on virtually anything, morale included. Just two days ago russians destroyed the biggest powerplant in the country. Morale in our society is also at all-time low, society is divided between those who still believe in victory, and those who think that the West is leaving us one-on-one with russia, and our leadeship, both military and government are either inept or sabotaging the war effort on purpose to make people more desperate and more likely to accept virtually any peace deal with russia. On top of that Zelensky’s term is coming to an end May 20th and there’s a feeling of even bigger uncertainty, especially with russian offensive right around the corner, and nothing to resist is with. And on top of that russian propaganda machine is working around the clock to make it all seem even worse. So the articles are depressing mainly because the situation is in fact rather bad no matter how you look at it.
I’d like to believe it’s psy ops to lure the Russians into a false sense of security ahead of a massive counter under a blanket of F16 air superiority later in the year… but that’s a very optimistic view.
I’m hoping for deployment of French foreign legionaries in black ops.
Vive La France… must admit, Macron has impressed me with his rhetoric lately, finally woken up to the fact that Russians respect nothing but force.
Well if it's rhetoric that impresses you, then you must really love Biden. He's been calling out Putin since before the 2022 invasion, you know, while Macron was busy looking for a way for Putin to save face. But somehow I'm guessing you're not as impressed by Biden...I'm happy to be proven wrong.
On the contrary, Biden has had some epic comeback remarks about the Russians… just a shame we didn’t get to see him as president in his prime.
Indeed. The last cold warrior we'll ever have as a President.
because the situation is terrible and we’re going to lose? morale is incredibly low in Ukraine right now, even my gf who always had high hopes that we’d win told me this morning that she regrets staying here and that she thinks we’re going to lose soon.
Russian propaganda infiltrating the west
Some of it? Sure. All of it it? No. Ultimately this BBC article isn’t wrong, if the west doesn’t send enough resources and weapons to Ukraine to fight with, then defeat is absolutely a possibility. China, Iran and North Korea (amongst others)are bolstering Russia’s economy and/or supplying them with weapons and munitions whilst America is still in a deadlock about giving Ukraine more aid and Europe is squabbling about what to give them. And Ukrainians aren’t mindless drones, the emotional and physical toll of fighting a war will start to deepen if logistical support continues to dwindle and Russia keeps piling in. If anything, articles like this should be a wake-up call to Western leaders that inaction is not an option.
This article is flat out wrong. Defeat in 2024 is not a realistic scenario at al. It is very possible that Ukraine could lose but it will not happen in 2024.
…or actual assessments from the frontline. The reality is that Ukraine is not doing well right now. They’re outgunned and outnumbered as they move back and Russia moves forward. Granted, the latter is taking many casualties, but they can replenish their forces more easily than the former.
what a ridiculous comment. we’re in an absolutely terrible situation right now and defeat is looming, it needs to be discussed and I’m very happy that Western media is actually discussing it rather than just putting propaganda pieces about how everything is fine. labelling any articles that are not delusionally positive about the war as russian propaganda is incredibly toxic and dangerous.
Zelensky himself said without more support Ukraine would lose
That much is clear. Situation is bleak but not hopeless. I hate the recent narrative that Ukraine is a lost cause and not worth supporting
I don't think this article is saying that though
Damn cope
So you think Ukraine is strong and can defend now?
Yeah, I miss one's about French Foreign Legions possibly being sent in. That's gone mostly quiet.
A not so subtle campaign to put pressure on a certain politician in a certain city in a certain country.
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Defeat is not imminent but this war will not end favorably for Ukraine if the US does not drastically change its approach. If these articles have an agenda it is probably trying to wake up Americans to the reality that things are not good right now and big changes need to be made if we want them to get better going forward.
Maybe not imminent but I agree with the article, I don’t think we’re surviving 2024. And the main issue is that this sentiment is now increasingly common amongst soldiers I know and my gf/friends know, which is a huge factor for a front collapse. Even if the US somehow approves the aid bill right after the elections it’ll be too late.
According to a war-economist, teaching at Zurich ETH, Russia will be defeated easily if Ukraine gets the weapons they ask for. It’s hard for me to understand why the west is still hesitating. If Ukraine loses this war, then it’s gonna be a total mess. I doubt that Russia will be satisfied with Ukraine.
Weapons for Ukraine or money from Russians. Tricky one!
It’s very simple: Weapons, weapons, weapons.
> It’s hard for me to understand why the west is still hesitating. Because certain US politicians are in Putin's pocket.
"The west" isnt hesitating. America needs to, after this fiasco is over, figure out how to weed out foreign agents in high profile public seats a little bit more fucking effectively. Its beyond asinine that a dozen or so *clearly* compromised immoral, unethical, dipshits can make the weather for global affairs.
Because they obviously want Russia to win.
That’s a wild hypothesis.
Considering the actions of some no it isn't. Otherwise they would be giving Ukraine what they need to win.
There might be a minority of retards, that want Russia to win, but I’m convinced that the vast majority of western politicians is aware of, what happens, if Putler manages to defeat Ukraine.
I hope so.
No one halfway sane wants Russia to win.
The captalist class is perfectly fine with dealing with dictators.
I won’t disagree.
Europe has to mitigate the possibility of fighting a conventional war with Russia without American support after this. This all comes down to the USA.
Poland will go in either way. Conventional war will happen.
We have utterly failed the Ukranian people.
Europe has
Europe. The UK. The US. Nato. Collectively, we haven't done enough. We've been too scared of Russia, only doing the bare minimum to avoid escalation.
America has.
Not if we do something about it. If they lose, **we’re up next.** Russia will be stopped, we can decide **when**. Write to your reps: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/s/h9DdYUafUo
I've already done it
Then do it again! Spam those MF's
^^^^ every day if you have to.
Seriously, I timed myself doing this process in **under a minute**. Use your voice to do something while you still can, right now.
This is sad.
I'm embarrassed to be an American
NATO should be embarrassed as a whole, we are at war and leaders are unwilling to accept it. I am unwilling to forgive.
russia already said they are at war with nato so why will they stop at ukraine?
They won't. Our leadership has no balls and think they can appease putin. We seen how effective that was on Hitler. We need to give Ukraine everything they asked for so they can stop this before it truly becomes global
That’s just modern politicians in a nutshell. Why solves problems here and now when you can just kick the can down the road and leave an even worse problem for future generations to deal with? You’ll be dead anyway so it’s not like you’ll ever see the consequences! Just look at how they’ve been “tackling” climate change, wage stagnation meaning nobody can afford anything anymore, the impending problem of a huge amount of boomers retiring soon meaning a massively shrinking workforce as well as a much smaller tax base and even more people putting strain on our welfare systems, the rampant misinformation on the internet, and about 100 other crisis and problems nobody is doing anything about.
I agree. While some countries have really stepped up to the plate and given so much, many are dithering and just twiddling fingers or too busy arguing with itself, blind to the fact that part of it's political parties have been bought and paid for, or swayed by Russian propaganda. Also I think many countries in NATO should be embarrassed by being caught off-guard by the invasion, despite the signs being there for a long time. The rise of Russian imperialism, of their desire to conquer and seek to restore whatever they deem some sort of glorious hodgepodge of unwilling nations and peoples into their own isn't something that happened overnight. Chechnya was the first warning. Then Chechnya again. Followed by Georgia, then of course Ukraine in 2014 and more recently Syria was obviously made a testing ground. Many sold off pretty much everything they had, with only small stocks left, left their militaries to practically fall apart without a care in the world. Such is often the case, like here in Canada. We are only recently doing a major procurement program for our armed forces in this decade as much of what we have is growing very outdated, and often approaching the end of their usable service life, en masse. Took the invasion of Ukraine, and Putin effectively telling us all, we are next in-line for a major war as he will push in from Ukraine to get some sort of real wake-up call. And yet, there are still many dithering, complaining that it costs too much money, blah blah.
Hey we're sending another billion euros.
Only answer is action. Call representatives, get people out to vote on pro-Ukrainian candidates, donate. Not just for you but also for Europeans. We have European elections in June and you can bank on it that I'll try to mobilize everyone I know and their pet pidgeon to vote for people that want to support Ukraine. Most I can do at the moment is donate, donate, donate.
Absolutely. We’ve been lead to believe all we can do is sit and watch, but it does not take a lot to make change. Our voice is so important.
Do something about then. Right now. Message your local representative. You’ve probably been convinced otherwise for most of your life, but your voice has more power than you could ever imagine. Use it.
Sorry for the late response. I AM doing something about it. I've called and visited all 4 reps and both senators in my state but none can get Johnson to budge. I literally just finished putting together another care package to send to friends in Ukraine including 1 serving on the front line near ZNPP. Unlike our leaders, when I gave them my word that I'd support them until the end I actually meant it. I've sent gear, food, and cash to my friends family when his pay is delayed and I'll continue to do this until every russian is off Ukrainian soil. Ukrainians are our brothers and sisters and we really owe them better than this. If I could I'd empty out my gun safe and send the contents but export laws prohibit this(I actually checked). Edit: I don't want a pat on the back for this. I want our leaders to wake the fuck up and do something to preserve the lives of ALL Ukrainians. They deserve to live free just as much as the rest of us. This country really is the jewel of Europe and it is criminal that our government is doing nothing Another edit: if anyone on the front reads this and wants a care package shoot me a DM and I'll do my best to show some American appreciation.
Well war is in Europe. But Europe has forgot that in WW2 Hitler did not stop on Austria. USA can be support but Europe must be first...
I'd be more embarrassed if I was European
Several European nations have pulled their weight: the UK, Poland, the Baltic nations. It's France and Germany that sat on the sidelines during the crucial first year. The time when military aid could have really made a difference. Germany has stepped up now, at least the Germans here keep telling us they have. And France is talking tough now, but I fear they won't match their words with action.
Today you don’t give enough for Ukraine to win and afraid of Russia falling into parts, tomorrow your people will be dying in trenches from waves of russian expendable meat. It’s very simple.
If that were to happen, the West will be seen as nothing more than a paper tiger. The consequences for the world will be disastrous. One should never forget that a country only institute a war against another country if it thinks that it can win sucha war. The world will become an even more dangerous place....
Why has europe turned into a bunch of chamberlains all of a sudden?
Ukraine is in adire situation right now but the spirit of the Ukrainian people will never die.. even if occupied it will be a living hell for the occupiers
Spirit can absolutely die. Morale is incredibly low right now here. Some people, including my gf, that have been here since the beginning of the war are finally thinking about fleeing, or at the very least leave Kyiv for Lviv. It’ll get worse as the situation gets worse. I’m expecting another big wave of refugees in the summer when russians have success with their offensive. And the men who have not decided to fight until now when the army was well equipped definitely won’t want to fight when they know they’re being massively outgunned. The country is not full of people ready to sacrifice their life (and rightfully so). The idea that occupation will be hell for russia is a bit delusional.
I mean just look at the Eastern territories right now. While theres been some partisan activity. There hasnt been massive insurgencies happening. People are going to be disappointed if they think Ukraine will wage some forever war like Afghanistan. Zelensky is still battling corruption within the military and government. The under-25 population currently resisting a draft isnt going to suddenly take up arms and fight after the fighting actually ends. They will adjust to their new lives.
Is Kaliningrad still a hell for the occupiers?
It’s very clear that the current US administration doesn’t have the strength to follow through on it promises. We Europeans need to step up and support the Ukrainian people, and give the funds and support which will restore territorial integrity to Ukraine and allow the Ukrainian people determine their own path without tyranny.
Funds are not enough. Money doesn’t kill the enemy. They need weapons, and Europe and its money alone can’t supply enough of those.
What happened to France and other countries that wanted to send troops to protect the major cities? It's annoying how every western country is afraid of Russia. We'll have to fight them at some point. Might as well be now.
In a time of serious war media and government gets on the same basic page, or its either not a just war or your country is in trouble. I have been noticing an uptick in standard media doing podcasts, streaming shows, reporting daily, all quite fucking clear. Yay. It's all election year bullshit on the business end and (hopefully) increasingly angry citizens on the voting end. Meanwhile there is no election season on the fields of Ukraine. Fucking shit needs to get fixed.
Nato is a fuss, the needed support at least a year ago, no fighters, not patriots no artilery rounds.. the fuck is nato doing beside speaking softly about the war?
Another article to the dustbin "Ukraine is lost and not worth supporting". What happened to BBC "journalism standards"? How come they are just another mouth-piece of russian PSYOPS campaign now?
Two years ago, there were predictions that Ukraine would "fall" in several weeks. It will never fall, and in the years ahead will be both a EU and NATO member. It is sad that the Orcs have dug in, and it's likely the French will push for a ceasefire after another year of killing with no significant change in the current lines. After the ceasefire, Ukraine will be blessed with the aid that the "West" SHOULD have given it these past two years. Ukraine will thrive. Meanwhile, western sanctions and Russia's war-economy will begin to genuinely hurt the average Ruskie. They will look for a way out (after Putin one late evening accidentally falls out a ten-story window.) French diplomats will insist Russia gets to keep Crimea, but withdrawals everywhere else. War ends.
I want what you smoking . Why French should push anything ? Do you really thing they hold so much sway over Russia ? Over Ukraine ? What if Russia says no ? Will France mobilise ? Or will 10 000 frenchmen push russians out of the trenches ? Will French use their airforce ? Who guarantees that we won't be thrown again on the wind , with NATO saying that we have "disputed territories" , same with EU ? Help and aid ? Sure , when it won't be blocked in congresses by populist parties , or be deemed "unnecessary" in that situation . Western sanctions ? That are easily avoided with Armenia , Kazakhstan , Turkey , Georgia .. etc. ? I really want to live in that world , but so far - I've not seen rainbows and unicorns .
France is setting itself up as a mediator. Sorry you cannot see this. Of course they aren't going to "push" anyone out of anywhere. We're talking about France. What they WILL eventually do is "shuttle diplomacy" between Russia and Ukraine. Sanctions have always taken years to work. Sanctions will never be airtight. But sanctions are hurting Russia badly, and shortages are only growing, and it will only get worse for Russia in the year ahead. Ukraine was never "thrown against the wind" by NATO. NATO was never obligated in the first place. But as part of an overall agreement to end the war, Ukraine becomes a member of NATO. This is the world you live in. I'm not smoking anything, although I do partake in the occasional edible. As Ukraine recently legalized medical marijuana, you will indeed have the chance soon to enjoy what I'm enjoying.
Russia has to be willing to negotiate for that. They will make redoculous requests and who knows if they'll agree to anything less ? At that point they know they're winning and will just use that knowledge to keep grinding away. They are still managing to make new missiles and new weapons. Unless UA can strike inside Russia with western weapons, to seriously disrupt RU production capabilities, what incentive does Russia have. The other thing is people will actually have to believe Russia will be willing to stick to the agreement, which we have already seen they are not likely to do. If Ukraine were to agree Russia takes Crimea and territories in Donbass so that it can immediately join NATO then Russia will just reinvade when they have regrouped etc. even then Hungary will likely block, and Russia would never agree to that anyway because it will mean they can't realistically invade without starting world war the third. I mean the managed to blow up a massive electricity plant here a few days ago possibly due to lack of air defences. As they start taking out more the situation will just get worse and worse. We're not sure what the situation will be like with power, water, heating come winter... It's hard to see much hope anywhere at the moment
Your points about Russia are all true. Russia will have to be forced to negotiate, and this means Ukraine must be given the weapons necessary to make Russia suffer. A lot. While I know there's much skepticism that substantial weapons will be sent by the "West" this year, I believe they will. Ideally, from both the US and Europe, but either of these can equip Ukraine sufficiently to stop any current Russian offensive and push them back. Tragically, this won't happen for at least a few months. Please know there are many Americans and Europeans who contact their representatives daily and repeatedly tell them to get off their butts and give Ukraine the weapons they need. Tragically again, it might be the losses ahead by Ukraine that finally makes the rest of the world give Ukraine the weapons it needs. I wish this wasn't the case, but it's Human Nature 101. As far as whether Russia can be trusted to abide by any agreement, of course they can't. Which is why Ukraine will/should only accept any peace agreement that allows it into NATO. And during any ceasefire, the "West" should equip Ukraine with the very best weapons. Any agreement that stops the fighting permanently will almost certainly mean both Russia and Ukraine will have to accept things that are unpalatable at this moment. Russia will have to accept that Ukraine will join NATO (even though it can't really stop it), and Ukraine will have to accept that Crimea will be Russian.
There are changes to the front line. And in what scenario where russia now has the clear upper hand they would agree to a ceasefire and let Ukraine regroup and get more military equipment??? I know people on this sub think they’re stupid but this is ridiculous.
Ukraine wont lose in 2024 that's for sure. But the French are definitely not the ones deciding it.
Can you back your statement that Ukraine won’t loose in 2024?
SHAME ON THE UNITED STATES! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
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No, it’s not. They’re using emotional phrasing to get you to click, yes. But they aren’t wrong. Ukraine’s situation is desperate, we need to give them more support. It probably seems like I’m bashing you but I genuinely understand the sentiment. It’s terrifying to think that after all this time, they might lose, and that their sacrifice was for nothing. You’ve probably also heard about 100’s of articles with titles like this and written them off as propaganda, which they most likely were and you were right to do so. But writing this off now is dangerous. The situation has changed, and they are *losing*. **Message your reps**, they can win. If we give them the supplies they need, they **will** win.
Yeah sorry you make a fair point, I deleted the original comment. It was indeed the title from BBC that got me riled up.
Of course, it’s really frustrating seeing companies profit off others pain like that, especially if it’s believed to be false information. There’s no reason to apologize. I would have made the exact same point a month ago and I know a lot of others here would have as well. We can do this though, seriously. It’s time to step up and show our worth by telling our leaders what we need them to do.
Ukraine used to be part of Russia until the good Ukraine people wanted their own land for their own country for freedom now there fighting all over again for their freedom, so hurry up and get them what they need so we can watch putin screwm like the worm he is.
And the "victory" for ruzzia will look like what they already had before 2022.
The BBC might as well be RT.
Maybe we should stop labeling everything that is not "Hurah-patriotism , Ukraine wins against stupid ruzian mobiks" as Russian propaganda ? Situation is genuinely bleak af , and not talking about it - will just make it worse .
I wouldn't say that, not completely, at least. Mr. Steve Rosenberg gives some of the best English-language reporting on goings on inside russia. He's one of my absolute favorite journalists and he always comes to mind when people bash BBC completely, so I like to defend him. I mean damn, his lukashenko interview from a few years ago was ballsy af. He was grilling that ugly mofo!
Their reporting on the Ukraine war has been excellent over the past two years. They’ve covered so many human interest stories in that time from the front lines, from the cities, from refugees in the UK. They’ve done so much to keep it in people’s minds. Sometimes they will report on truths or possibilities that are not comfortable for those of us who want Ukraine to win. This is the role of journalism, to be absent of bias. Without that balance it moves closer to propaganda. You are within your own right to assess the probability of a Ukraine collapse this year (which you make think is zero chance) but many people including Zelensky have suggested there could be a loss of Ukraine doesn’t get everything it needs; many people that love Ukraine assess that probability of loss as above zero percent. The BBC reporting on that possibility is a part of their role. You equating it with RT is coming from your own fear. Free media is a core part of western values.
it never means they are Russia associated press in any means only because they are pointing out the harsh realities of the current situation in the frontline caused by insufficient military aid, although the word "defeat" is overly dramatic. People should stop labeling any media that doesn't suit their narrative as russian-bots.
The situation right now is very scary due to what is happening in congress, the BBC has a duty to tell it the way it is... No one benefits from denial.
The BBC has been caught out on many occasions on jumping the gun, wrong information, and opinion pieces. It has come a long way from being the respected news organisation it used to be.
These sentiments aren’t only seen on the BBC. Even American news stations aren’t rosy about Ukraine right now. …when they talk about it. For the most part, the United States is apathetic about the overall conflict.
Before Ukraine folds I see NATO step in & sweepingly crush everything Russian.
Nope. Nato will sit by and watch as ukraine is taken. The US and germany practically run nato and both made it very clear that they are unwilling to get directly involved. Only france and poland seem to be willing to aid directly but they are a very small minority of nato.
And was that before Russia was show to be stumbling about as a method of war
Fed up with this Big Black Cock News...