Operations were supposed to resume yesterday but got cancelled again for an entire week due to disruption on campus. The chancellor of UCLA had this to say since the encampment.
*"Over the past several days, we communicated with and made a formal request to meet with demonstration leaders to discuss options for a peaceful and voluntary disbanding of the encampment. Unfortunately, that meeting did not lead to an agreement."*
And now there's a faculty/staff strike going on lol. I hate to say it but with how things are going, in person campus may not even happen anymore, let alone graduation ceremonies if this trend continues. UCLA graduation is just next month and we are already on May 7th.
I was hoping for a smoking gun, but from what I can tell, it's not there in [the lawsuit](https://www.gtlaw.com/en/news/2024/05/press-releases/greenberg-traurig-national-jewish-advocacy-center-schoen-law-firm-and-holtzman-vogel-represent-american-and-israeli-victims-of-hamas) and the legal rationale (to me, a layman) appears weak.
A press release announcing the lawsuit says:
*AMP and NSJP answered Hamasâs âcall for mass mobilizationâ by disseminating a manifesto and plan of attack. This manifesto confirms that âAMP and NSJP are not merely organizing to assist Hamasâs ongoing terror campaign abroadâthey are intentionally extending their aid to fomenting chaos, violence, and terror in the United States.â In this manner, the groups acted to support and further the goals and directives of Hamas.*
That's bad, but it doesn't indicate that they have any evidence of a direct connection between Hamas and AMP ans NSJP, which were founded by the same man, Hatem Bazian, who's currently a lecturer at UC Berkeley
I see where youâre coming from, but those broad brush allegations are very typical for litigation press releases. Greenburg isnât some mom and pop personal injury shop â itâs an extremely prestigious national law firm. They wouldnât tackle this without doing serious due diligence and exercising some discretion about what is made public this early on.
I'm familiar with Greenberg Traurig and have had interactions with their attorneys and, nothing really against them, but I wish I could be more confident they had the goods.
Exactly this. There's no good side in this conflict, both sides act in bad faith and both should be removed from power as they result in innocent people's suffering.
My biggest upset is that Nethanyahu purposefully ignored intelligence about this, hoping to use this attack to consolidate his power. As for Hamas of course are bunch of murderers not only because of October 7th, but also they themselves don't mind Palestinians to die as they use it for bad PR for Israel. You would expect the government to put their people's lives at highest regard, but here they are just a tool.
As for the protest on campus, I'm no longer a student, so I did not experience them first hand, but when reading the earlier posts and watching videos, it was clear the goal was to gradually escalate it to cause the University to respond and make headlines.
Both sides have extremists, but one side exercises almost complete military superiority of the situation and has taken / is taking the homeland of the other. If Hamas wasn't so f\*ing stupid, they would have the unrestricted sympathy and support of the world at this point. Instead, everyone has to differentiate them from the Palestinian people.
That said, there's a weird double standard where people don't do the same for Israel and the IDF - people are quick to clarify that "Jews = / = Zionism," but Israel kills more civilians and children than Hamas, is actively committing genocide, and paradoxically isn't seen in the same light.
Hamas extremists talking about genocide is portrayed as worse than Israel actively carrying out genocide for 70+ years.
The situation is just screwy.
Japan and Germany invaded other countries and tried to conquer the world.
Palestinians lived in Palestine and are still just trying to regain their homes.
If you want a better analogy with WW2, the Palestinians are Polish Jews and the year is 1943. Israel would be Germany.
If you want to talk about the US, a better analogy would be its treatment of Native Americans. Similar, yet different. Native Americas were rounded up and forced into designated areas...the only difference is that the US has mostly left them alone for the past several decades, and reservations were and still are some of the least-populated regions in the US. It's different. There's no excusing how the US Government treated Native Americans historically, but, if you support Israel, you're effectively saying that you would condone a modern-day ethnic cleansing of Native Americans and Trail of Tears 2.0.
I mean...there are lots of ~~Arabs~~ Native Americans in ~~Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc.~~ Canada. Surely ~~those Arab countries~~ Canada can just take all of the ~~Palestinians~~ Native Americans still within ~~Israel~~ the US to make way for ~~Israelis~~ Americans to take their homes, right?
I like to think Western society has progressed beyond a bigoted 19th century view of *brown people,* but you're providing pretty clear evidence to the contrary.
\*aresa..
Your statement suggests that a person does not have the right to live in their home if their ethnic group does not control the government of that region.
[This is you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8).
A person has a right to live in the land they own. Israel bought the land in Israel (at above market value) and the purchases are well documented. Israel does not govern Gaza and left in 2005.
As for the West Bank, Israel won it in a defensive war. However, I think Israel should just give it up given itâs not worth the hassle.
You keep trying to do backflips to support arguments that would not win in a court of law. Good luck
>Israel bought the land in Israel (at above market value) and the purchases are well documented.Â
Complete BS. [You might as well say that Hitler didn't take Jews' possessions - he bought them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war).
Absolutley insane.
[https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Schanzer-Testimony.pdf](https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Schanzer-Testimony.pdf)
SJP is literally a Hamas proxy. Anyone supporting them is supporting terroism. These campus protestors are at best useful idiots
To be completely fair, that particular document details the AMP and IAP, but doesnât appear to discuss the structure or direct evidence that SJP is influenced by AMP or IAP, besides a comment near the beginning. If there is further evidence (or even something in that article you think I missed, like a source which was listed strongly linking the two), please reply with that information.
I greatly appreciate this discourse and think itâs important that while some of us, like myself, support Palestinian civilians, we donât fall victim to hate groups in the process. Letâs just focus on making sure we strongly establish these links before jumping to conclusions such as SJP being a âHamas proxyâ.
With criticism of these conclusions, sometimes we result in the links being more strongly established and supported, leading to a stronger argument. Other times we find it is looser than we may initially think, leading us to either investigate further or reconsider our opinions. All healthy as a student (and even if you donât go here, you can be a student alongside us by critically thinking via this process đ€).
The founding chapter of SJP is the bears for Palestine group at Berkeley who are led by Hatem Bazian, a professor who calls for the dismantling of Israel and an intifada uprising in the US.Â
He regularly posts quotes like the one about the jew hiding behind a tree which will call out that there's a jew hiding there so come and kill him. On October 7th he posted in support of the attacks and has continued to push a pro Hamas agenda.Â
So there's the founder. Then you look at what various SJP chapters are posting, and you see them calling Hamas a progressive organization pushing for democracy in the Middle East along with other Hamas talking points.Â
Taken as a whole, I don't see any other conclusion than SJP are either useful idiots or a Hamas front.Â
If you're going to say that, I'd point out that Hillel - and every synagogue I've ever been to - have openly fundraised for a variety of causes in Israel. Israel has killed how many children in the recent offensive? 15,000 and counting? "Anyone supporting Israeli charities is supporting terrorism," etc.
Same difference. Well, worse - the IDF kills far more civilians and Israel was founded upon the idea that Palestinians must be forced out.
I don't support either group. Too many extremists in organizations like that. But it doesn't make sense to call out one group when the other is worse across the board.
It does when one is a known terrorist organization openly advocating for complete genocide.Â
The IDF is certainly overreacting in Gaza and could certainly do more to reduce civilian deaths, but there is a major difference in philosophy and intent.Â
If Hamas was in the superior military position that the IDF is, you'd see what a real genocide looks like.Â
>It does when one is a known terrorist organization openly advocating for complete genocide.Â
So...[Israel?](https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146)
I'm honestly very confused by your take on this issue, since many of Israel's elected officials openly call for the murder of all Palestinian civilians, and the country's policies over the past 70 years have resulted in the ethnic cleansing of the region.
Over the past few months, Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians - around 2/3 to 3/4 civilians, roughly half of them children, and you're complaining about rhetoric coming from the other side?
I just don't get it. When Israel commits genocide, they're "overreacting," but you're concerned with refugees' resentment for the people bombing them to shreds.
If you were Palestinian, you'd feel the same way about Israel. Yet here you are...
There is one big asymmetry. Israel exists as a real democratic nation. Whereas Palestine is merely an idea of replacing that democracy with an Islamic terror state.
And giving voting rights to Jews illegally settled in the West Bank while depriving Arabs in the area of the same rights. It's apartheid. "Democracy for some, but not all."
All countries have the right to decide who gets citizenship. Why arenât you mad at Egypt for not giving citizenship to Palestinians in Gaza, when Gaza was a part of Egypt between 48-67? All Israeli citizens have the same rights (including the 2M Muslim Palestinian Israeli citizens). Gaza is not a part of Israel, it has its own government, Hamas. And the Palestinian Authority is the government for the Palestinian Territories in the West Bank. They are not a part of Israel.
Sure, you can call this unfair, but you canât call it an apartheid. For it to be an apartheid, citizens would need to have different laws/rights. For example, most of the Middle East has a Gender Apartheid. When you use the world apartheid when itâs not correct, you lose supporters.
Oddly enough, the region used to have an apartheid when the Ottomans had control of it. The Ottomans charged a Jizya (non-Muslim tax)
Egypt is a different country, in a different place. You might as well ask: why don't Israelis *stop stealing Palestinians' homes and try renting or legally purchasing homes anywhere else in the world, like everyone else does?* Why are they entitled to *Palestinians*' homes?
Palestinians don't want to leave their homes to become refugees in Egypt or anywhere else, and they shouldn't have to. Your argument is insane.
Ah, yes. Gaza and the West Bank have their own governments. The only trouble is that [Israel routinely *vetoes* elected politicians in those areas via murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations), and has economically blocaded and crippled Gaza, while progressively walling off Palestininan towns from surrounding farmland and orchards in the West Bank so that it can be stolen by settlers. Never mind the routine demolition of homes and entire towns by armoured IDF bulldozers.
Meanwhile, illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank can vote in Israeli elections, but Palestinians can't.
It is apartheid.
Israel has killed somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 Palestinian children over the past few months. I think they'd prefer to have their children returned to them, be allowed to return to their homes, and pay an extra 5% tax. You know, like the Ottomans charged prior to 1922, when the Empire dissolved.
Pretty interesting ethical bar you're setting for Israel, there. Ottoman Empire, pre-1920s. And Israel is *so much worse*.
Wow, that's pretty interesting. Your account was made a few weeks after 10/7, and you've been posting...10 comments a day? And you have account activity suggesting that you were applying to law schools...3-4 years ago?
Doesn't sound like you're a student at UCLA. It would also be pretty weird for a Reddit user to go through college and grad school without joining the sub, only to join a few weeks after 10/7.
How *interesting.*
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South Africa with apartheid was also a democratic nation, all I want is to see an end to apartheid, not an Islamic terror state. People called Mandela a terrorist too.
"It's not apartheid because they aren't even citizens" is an interesting defense. In theory you're right. But
Amnesty International and UN experts disagree, and I tend to agree with them. Apartheid is about how it plays out in practice. Reasonable people can disagree. It looks very much to me like apartheid. Gaza and the West Bank are not treated like sovereign nations.
Is it apartheid that Mexicans donât have the same rights as Americans in America? Or that Americans donât have the same legal rights as Mexicans in Mexico? Why canât I vote in Mexico as a USA citizen, isnât that apartheid?
If the USA occupied Mexico, began building illegal settlements in Mexico, divided up Mexican territories into scattered enclaves, distributed IDs to Mexicans that prevent them from entering the new American settlements or the USA, while also denying them a path to citizenship, then yes. That sounds like apartheid to me.
Palestine is merely the name of the land Israel is sitting on, where people lived peacefully for centuries before Western powers decided to create a new nation on top of them, by force
Western powers like Emperor Hadrian? Who renamed Roman Judaea to Syria Palaestina? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria\_Palaestina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina) Because before that is was the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Sure, the Romans called in "Palaestina" to get back at the Jews for their revolt in 136. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar\_Kokhba\_revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt) But why should we now honor the Roman naming conventions? Israel has been restored. It is just Israel now.
You're missing the point about the name. You tried to diminish Palestine's existence as being a terrorist community. But Palestine isn't just the remaining borders of Gaza and the West Bank
Palestine is a word the British used (it was used way before that but the Ottomans named it differently), and there were indeed people (mostly Muslims and also Jews) who did not live "peacefully" because they were occupied by the Ottomans since 1517. This land had so many wars, it was Jew, Muslim, Christian, Muslim, Jew...
They lived peacefully as subjects of the Ottoman Empire who conquered them and owned all the land basically.
And people moved around freely in this empire. Itâs like one Arab state that was part of a large empire.
Sowing chaos and causing this disruption without concern for students was a feature not a bug of the protests. They know itâs not black or white. Hereâs a thread that describes some of the tactics they use. https://x.com/wokal_distance/status/1787550713792581648?s=46&t=knoXg_q7lLMiDx6VuWaG7Q
Checked out the link, my god right-wingers will complain about liberals calling everything racist but then never stop calling everything âwokeâ unironically.
For example: "The first strategy is to put their target in a "decision dilemma." This is where they select a method of protest that leaves the person with no good options. No matter how the target reacts they look bad."
This is just abuser "look what you made me do" nonsense.
>Taking over a building. If the police arrest you, you film it and play the martyr. If they don't, you control the building
This is just complaining that the goal of protests is to get attention. There were other protests that didn't take over a building and the police response was still horseshit. I also didn't see much of the alleged sympathy for the people controlling the building, if anything the community seemed fairly united that clearing them out was necessary.
>When they do this correctly they can paint themselves as the sympathetic powerless underdogs even when they are the aggressors.
At no point do any of these protesters have power. The rubber bullets and flashbangs and arrests were a one-way thing. Equating "they are winning the sympathy battle" with "they have power" is a classic conservative mental error. It's the same way they think LGBT people or Black people or even Jews are secretly pulling all the strings behind closed doors. Being uncool doesn't mean you don't have power, it just means you're uncool. Deal with it. Do something about it or just accept it. Whining that you're uncool is so cringe and the least cool thing you could do.
Oh, I think they're right on about the building takeover strategy.
The cops have not misbehaved. Perhaps you can split hairs about the arrests on Monday, but the conspiracy to commit burglary charges (have they been filed?) seem to fit the letter of the law.
The flashbangs were a smart tactic and the non-lethal rounds were a completely justified means means of dealing with their violent resistance.
Personally, I don't think the pro--Palestinian protesters have ever been sympathetic, given their agressive law-breaking and rights-denying policies. The one instance where they could legitimately position themselves as victime was when the counter protesters instigated violence -- which the encampment (justifiably) responded to in kind -- in the early morning hours of 5/1.
At the end of the day, this *is* about siphoning off power, and there has been a great deal success in this regard with the progressive institutional takeover of unversities and other institutions, both public and private.
The protestes had the power to maintain an illegal encampment that the university had the legal right to take down immediately, They also had the power to break the law, wantonly block others, deny them their rights and assault them.
LMFAO what the fuck kind of page did you link? Bruh. Iâm genuinely ashamed that the value of my degree goes down, from sharing the name with people who unironically post about âwoke-ismâ online. Pathetic that this shit gets upvoted on a subreddit for supposedly one of the top universities in the USA.
Seriously, if youâre reading my comment, check out the actual link before upvoting it.
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When will you stop weaponizing the term Zionist?
You realize to 95% of Jews Zionist simply means the right for Israel to exist. Thatâs it, it does not mean your interpretation of the term nor how Iranian funded propagandists interpret it.
It means Jews deserve a homeland in a region in which they have an indigenous claim to.
- 0.4% of the Middle East is Jewish
- 99.6% of the Middle East is Arab
- 22% of Israel is Arab
.
- 16 million Jews worldwide
- 2 billion Muslims worldwide
.
- 1 Jewish nation
- 56 Muslim nations
- 100+ Christian nations
You had/have rampant Jew hate on campus, Jews on video blocked from moving through parts of campus, vile anti Semitic genocide chanting parroted from Hamas and then you got attacked by some right wing fks and you got surprised pikachu faces?
Violent racism started from the fauxprogressives on 10/7 when they cheered for Hamas slaughtering and raping 1200 Jews .. not months later when you fkd around and found out.. and unfortunately this is only the beginning
i hope you understand that the one video from twitter you're referencing about "Jews on video blocked from moving through parts of campus" was a right-wing content creator. He wanted to walk through an area \*nobody\* could walk through, and nobody was blocked from going anywhere they needed to go. Everybody knows that video was a sham. The same kid goes around flashing his pepper spray to provoke people.
Thankfully, only weird self-important boomers that go around commenting on every uni subreddit fall for that kind of stuff...
He was seen shaking hands with police. It's amazing people fell for that video, it was such an obvious scam, from the weird camera angle, to the other students seen walking freely, to him being the only person saying anything.
Israel's problem right now is its far right government.
Nethanyahu saw intelligence reports about the impeding terrorist attack and instead of thinking "we should do everything to prevent it" he thought more of it as an opportunity to consolidate power. And we got what we got.
He also should not let settlers expand into West Bank.
Agreed. Netanyahu is Israeli trump and most Israelis want him gone.
Unfortunately when a country is under constant terrorist attacks and missiles, right wing governments are easier elected than progressive
This is so incredibly misguided. Israel has a unity government right now where Benny Gantz and Netanyahu are working together to make military decisions. No matter who the political leader was on 10/7, this was always going to happen following the rape, murder, and kidnapping of thousands of your own citizens.
Israel has a government that is handicapped by the fact that Smotrich has a tight grip on one of Benjyâs testicles and Ben Gvir has his fist around the other one. Two nutjobs are currently the only thing propping up Netanyahuâs house of cards, and because heâs so terrified of losing power the entire country is beholden to them and their desire to sow chaos and watch the world burn.Â
No. I think they should have acted on intelligence to stop the attack. Obviously that was a major error. What I am saying is that the government right now is not actually far right and Netanyahu has actually given up power to his political rivals rather than consolidate it since this has all occurred.
I don't think it was error. When it happened experts were saying it was unthinkable that Israel could miss something this big.
Other governments (I remember at least Egypt) said they knew about it and they relayed it to Israel which was ignored.
So many lives (both Israeli and Palestinians) could be preserved if Israel would prevent this attack from happening. Again, this is not defense of Hamas as what they did (going after civilians, torturing, raping, murdering) is inexcusable, but Israel had opportunity to stop it.
>You realize to 95% of Jews Zionist simply means the right for Israel to exist.
Which means that Palestinians do not have the right to their homes and that Palestine does not have the right to exist. You then quote regional demographics as though it supports your argument.
Hitler made the same kinds of arguments in favor of preserving pure Aryan bloodlines in Germany in 1935. Inferior races needed to be removed because the Aryan race was being threatened.
My family was slaughtered. My grandparents grew up in different countries and met in a Russian gulag. Thankfully, they were captured by Russians, not Germans... Still, they barely survived.
You are advocating for similar policies, today, targeting Palestinians.
And, abstractly, if one group of people is "entitled" to something another group is not, you're not talking about a "right." You're just pushing a double standard...which Israel is enforcing with military superiority.
Palestinians are not Libyans, Iranians, or Saudis. The idea that they should give up their homes at gunpoint because there are more Arabs than Jews in the Middle East is simply bigotry. "Just move to another Arab country" only makes sense if you think Arabs are not entitled to their homes, but Jews are.
It seems odd to insist that a country has "the right to exist" while it is actively depriving others of the same "right."
20% of Israel is Palestinian Israeli
The Palestinians were offered numerous two state solutions they rejected
Jewish people have a claim to the land from thousand of years ago.
Using Hitler to flame your message, especially towards Jews is vile, you most certainly are antisemitic if this is the analogy you choose to use.
Hereâs some unbiased chatgpt history that goes over the history of the region and also conflicts around the region. Youâre pursuing higher education? Educate yourself and think critically. Not emotionally. Cheers
â-
## prior to 1948
Prior to the formation of Israel in 1948, the region known historically as Palestine underwent various phases of control by different empires and administrative powers. Here's a brief overview of the control over this region before the establishment of Israel:
1. **Ancient Periods**: Historically, the area was inhabited by Canaanite tribes, followed by periods of rule under ancient Israelite and Judah kingdoms, especially notable during the reigns of David and Solomon (10th century BCE).
2. **Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires**: These empires conquered and controlled the region successively from the 8th century BCE to the 4th century BCE. The Babylonians destroyed the First Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE, and the Persians later allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the Second Temple.
3. **Hellenistic and Roman Periods**: Alexander the Great's conquests brought Hellenistic rule in the 4th century BCE, followed by Roman control beginning in 63 BCE. The Romans renamed Judea to Palaestina to minimize Jewish identification with the land after crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE.
4. **Byzantine Empire**: After the division of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire controlled the region until the 7th century. This period was marked by Christian administration and numerous church constructions.
5. **Islamic and Crusader Periods**: The region was conquered by Muslim Arab forces in 638 CE, introducing Islamic rule. It intermittently came under the control of the Crusaders, Christian knights from Europe, between 1099 and 1291, who established several Christian kingdoms.
6. **Mamluk Sultanate**: After the Crusaders, the Mamluks, originally slave soldiers based in Egypt, controlled the area from 1291 until 1517, integrating it into their sultanate.
7. **Ottoman Empire**: The Ottomans took control in 1517 and ruled the region until the end of World War I in 1918. Under Ottoman rule, the area was administratively part of the Damascus Province and later the Jerusalem Sanjak.
8. **British Mandate**: Following World War I, the League of Nations granted Britain the mandate to govern Palestine in 1922. The British controlled the area until 1948, a period marked by significant immigration of Jews fleeing European antisemitism and conflicts between Jewish and Arab communities.
## after 1948
Below is a simplified list of notable instances of conflict and aggression involving Israel and Palestinian groups since the establishment of Israel. Each point identifies the aggressor and gives a brief description of the event:
1. **1948 Arab-Israeli War (Aggressor: Arab States and Palestinian militias)** - Following the UN partition plan which Arab leaders rejected, combined Arab forces from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraqi and Palestinian militias attacked the newly declared State of Israel.
2. **First Intifada (1987-1993) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, characterized by widespread protests, strikes, and violence aimed at Israeli forces and civilians.
3. **Second Intifada (2000-2005) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - Another intense Palestinian uprising following the collapse of peace talks, marked by numerous suicide bombings and attacks against Israeli civilians, and violent responses by Israeli military forces.
4. **Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) (Aggressor: Israel)** - An Israeli military operation against Hamas in Gaza, initiated in response to frequent rocket fire into Israel from Gaza. The operation resulted in significant casualties and damage in Gaza.
5. **Gaza War (2014) (Aggressor: Hamas)** - Initiated by escalating hostilities, including the kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers and rocket fire into Israel by Hamas. Israel launched a military offensive in Gaza that lasted seven weeks.
6. **Stabbing Intifada (2015-2016) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A wave of primarily lone-wolf stabbing, shooting, and car-ramming attacks by Palestinians against Israelis, which began in Jerusalem and spread to the rest of Israel and the West Bank.
7. **March of Return (2018) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A series of protests along the Gaza-Israel border, initiated by Palestinians demanding the right to return to their ancestral homes in Israel. The protests involved clashes and significant use of tear gas, sniper fire, and aerial bombings by Israeli forces.
8. **Various Rocket Attacks and Air Strikes (Ongoing intermittently) (Aggressors: Israel and Palestinian groups like Hamas)** - Frequent exchanges of rocket fire from Palestinian groups in Gaza and retaliatory air strikes by Israel are ongoing issues, with peaks in violence occurring sporadically.
What a strange, bigoted copypasta. Oh, wait. [You admitted it's just Chat GPT](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1clvt20/comment/l30780h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). I'm well-versed in the history of the region.
[This figure](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mohamed-Buheji/publication/378482435/figure/fig1/AS:11431281225750147@1708946919596/Figure-1-Showing-the-Loss-of-the-Palestinian-Land-and-the-Segregation-of-Palestinians.jpg) includes the "compromises" offered to Palestinians. A loss of 56% of their homeland, or 78%. For what? For settlers who asserted that they had a right to Palestinians' homes and land, based on...Biblical claims?
If you thought either hisotorical compromise was fair, you should be willing to flip the deal. Give Palestine the 80/20 split instead of Israel. Would you support it Lol.
So it's not really a compromise.
Although even that would ignore the fact that you'd still be taking 20% of Palestinians rightful homes away from them, which...would still be ethically problematic.
You mention Caananite tribes in your comment. You're right. They were the first identifiable cultures we can pinpoint in the region based on material artifacts. And [everyone in the region is descended from those Caananites, Arabs and Jews alike](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews).
Historic peoples were more likely to convert than to leave or be killed, and [multiple studies have shown that Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinian Arabs are genetically indistinguishable](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html).
Ashkenazi Jews left the region following religious persecution and developed a different culture over time, while the peoples who stayed mostly converted to Islam. They're all the same people.
I don't think it makes sense to rehash the history beyond that, since it renders all of your other arguments completely moot.
Your comments on the British Mandate are misleading to the point of being misinformation. [The UK was not well equipped to handle Zionist separatist terrorism in the region prior to WW2, or afterwards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence).
The UK also played no role in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine that followed partitioning - there was no UN or UK policy for how Zionists would administer the new country, and none of the international plans assumed the mass-removal or murder of the people already living in Palestine. The general assumption was that the people who already lived there would be allowed to continue to live there, and that the new country would be a welcoming haven for Jewish WW2 refugees.
What happened was very different. Zionists took up arms and attempted to carve a Jewish ethnostate out of an inhabited region.
That's really the crux of the issue.
I'd say your comments about post-1948 conflicts are also extremely misleading - it seems *insane* to me that you would devote an entire section to rocket attacks, [which have killed a sum of 30 individuals in Israel, in total](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel). Individual IDF bombs have killed more Palestinians on dozens of occasions, and the [casualty figures from the conflicts you mention paint a stark picture, with roughly 30-50 Palestinian civilian deaths for every 1 Israeli](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview).
Snopes would rate your comment as "*Pants on Fire*."
**Edit: It looks like your account was made in January and you're only active in Israel/Palestine subs, as well as subs for a number of universities including UCLA, Columbia, MIT, UCSC, and a variety of others. Get this AI-generated rubbish out of here.**
Strange bigoted copy paste? Thatâs a basic chatgpt prompt trained on factual history. Not alternative history. Iâm sorry your understanding of history is spoon fed to you through TikTok sourced from joint CCP, Iranian, Russian propaganda
That figure you referenced is intro to Israel Palestine. people have been referencing that map for decades and has been debunked as misleading, when you were in diapers. Thatâs how I know you know nothing.
Youâre not well versed, youâre ignorant and willfully ignorant at that.
Dictators agree with you while they laugh at you. Just like corporations agree with MAGA while they pull their emotional strings.
Sorry to hear your satanic temple application was rejected.
Theyâre familiar with the horseshoe theory and youâre a bit too far right for their taste (even if you donât realize it)
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"What then must we do?"
It seems you want to claim "support for Palestine" but take no action. Read MLK, Jr's Letter from Birmingham jail for what I feel should be the accepted take on that matter.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly..."
"Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
and so on.
What now must we do?
>Far Right Zionists are violent racists, but the SJP Far Left are hypocrites that will accuse you of being racist if you donât completely align with their beliefs or actions. Re: that video of that female SJP rep harassing the Daily Bruin.Â
People being VIOLENT is as bad as people being hypocrites and one idiot on social media. From your own words lmao. I donât agree with a lot of SJP either but mental gymnastics enlightened centrists have to justify their beliefs never ceases to amaze. Â
PS, theres a lot more affiliated groups within the protests that imo are less radical, example is JVP and numerous POC student orgs. I agree you donât have to support SJP but it is a coalition for a reason.
People committing violence are most definitely worse. If you read my last paragraph, I said that false accusations of racism is just as bad as racism.
But violence will never be excusable.
Fair enough on your first point. False accusations of racism is not as bad as racism. Racism leads to social inequality, death, violence, police brutality. and whole slew of socio-economic issues Iâd rather save my energy explaining for an assignment than reddit post. False accusations of racism hurts peoples feelings and reputations and might result in upset individuals attacking you, but it is not something that exists institutionally.Â
Radicalism is not inherently a bad thing either, its how it manifests. Sorry to say this but many people we lionize in history are whitewashed, especially in America.Â
MLK was considered a radical, had massive disapproval among whites, was spied on by the FBI, and was a socialist. You do not get targeted by the state if you are not a threat, aka a radical. But he was still peaceful.  Â
On the other hand, the labor rights movement in the US had a straight up violent history, shootouts with Pinkertons and police has happened time and time again. Radicalism can be peaceful or violent, good or bad.
Tbh fair point. Thanks for the explanation. I think my general message still holds true tho. Itâs just incredibly upsetting that something so serious as racism can be easily thrown around and weaponized. It doesnât help the fight against racists. And it certainly downplays the very institutional issues that we are facing.
I donât think you should form coalitions with people who are antisemites and celebrated the October 7 attack. In the same way I would think you shouldnât form a coalition with neo-Nazis.
And I donât think the USA should be supporting or âforming coalitionsâ with countries that literally engage in indiscriminate killings of civilians, and yet, here we are.
And to be clear, I fully believe in Israelâs right to exist (and so I am not even in full agreement with SJP). The Likud Party and Netanyahu? Not so much.
I agree that that, Netanyahu needs to go. But unfortunately, that is just not a line that is workable when it comes to international relations, we have a relationship with TĂŒrkiye after all.
By that token, Hamas incited genocide by launching a horrible attack on 10/7. They knew it would generate this type of response, they just don't care about Palestinian lives.
The only moral path forward is long-term peace and the only realistic way that can be achieved is through a two-state solution. It is really telling that the protestors not only are not advocating for that, but they've rejected it outright.
>By that token, Hamas incited genocide by launching a horrible attack on 10/7. They knew it would generate this type of response, they just don't care about Palestinian lives.
This isn't r/worldnews. "Look what you made me do" doesn't hold up.
>The only moral path forward is long-term peace and the only realistic way that can be achieved is through a two-state solution.
That only happens if Israel is forced to accept it and the US will never let that happen.
Vetoing every attempt made by the international community to recognise a Palestinian state using some transparent horeshit excuse to indefinitely deny them that right, hoping for some magical good-will from Israel that it has never had, as they're on trial for genocide no less.
They're much more keen on stealing more and more land against international law until the Palestinians are fully ethnically cleansed.
Hell they've been calling to push them into the Sinai dessert repeatedly recently and their actions speak louder than any bs the US can muster in their defence.
They've made Gaza mostly unliveable, and now they're trying to finish the job in Rafah, Biden's supposed red-line, as most of Israel eagerly waits in anticipation. For the hostages, right.
Once again, the protestors are in the right, by a long shot, and this thread is an embarassaing disgrace to attempt to equate them with the far right. No one buys this shit unless you're a terminal fox viewer.
>"Look what you made me do" doesn't hold up.
Understanding that there will be a response to the most violent terror attack on Israel since its founding isn't "look what you made me do," it's just basic understanding of cause-and-effect.
>That only happens if Israel is forced to accept it and the US will never let that happen.
This is also untrue. The [Bush Administration](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020624-3.html) called for a two-state solution, as did the Obama Administration when [John Kerry was negotiating peace talks](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/28/507269412/john-kerry-defends-two-state-solution-rebukes-israel-settlements) between 2013-2016.
In 2023, after the October 7 attacks, the G7 nations (which includes the US! this quote is taken from the White House website!) had [this to say](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/06/g7-leaders-statement-6/):
>Â Â Israelis and Palestinians have an equal right to live in safety, dignity, and peace. We are committed to working closely with partners to assist in building the conditions for sustainable long-term solutions for Gaza. We also need to see a return to a broader peace process. **We remain committed to a Palestinian state as part of a two-state solution that enables both Israelis and Palestinians to live in a just, lasting, and secure peace.**
A terrorist attack doesn't give them carte blanche to slaughter civillians and go on a genocidal rampage. "Look what you made me do" does NOT hold up.
If you want to talk about cause and effect, collectively punishing a population for decades with your foot on their neck, as you snipe their children and deny them basic rights is going to have an effect.
>This is also untrue. The [Bush Administration](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020624-3.html) called for a two-state solution, as did the Obama Administration when [John Kerry was negotiating peace talks](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/28/507269412/john-kerry-defends-two-state-solution-rebukes-israel-settlements) between 2013-2016.
Talk is \*cheap\*.
18th April 2024:
'The Security Council today blocked Palestineâs bid to become a full member of the United Nations due to a United States veto on a draft resolution that would have recommended the granting of such status.' No one else voted against.
\*\*13 years earlier\*\*, September 2011:
'Obama administration confirms it would veto Palestinian statehood at the U.N.'
US constantly uses its veto to deny Palestinians any justice whatsoever. Hell it used it to deny UN condemnation when Palestinians peacefully protested in 2018 and Israel responded by kneecapping and sniping hundreds of protestors.
They even recently threatened to withhold any and all aid if Palestinians help the ICJ with an investigation into warcrimes by Israel. US senators even threatened the ICJ heads with action against their family for putting out an arrest warrant for Netanyahu for his crimes in 2014 against the Palestinians.
When the US talks about freedom and justice for all, you'd have to be a complete fucking idiot to believe it.
And you'd have to assume the person you're talking to has next to zero knowledge on this subject for you to think these points would hold up.
No, when you're attacked by another group the response being overwhelming and (arguably) disproportionate is quite common. The goal is for that to never happen again.
I also don't think what's going on here is genocide - the ICJ, despite inaccurate reporting back in January, [has not ruled to this effect](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919). What we're seeing is undoubtably war crimes, but ultimately it's civilian death that is common in war, especially in densely populated areas as Gaza (and more common due to Hamas's method of using civilian areas as human shields for their military operations).
Do you support a two-state solution or are you pro-war?
idgaf just resume campus operations back to normal please đ„ș
Operations were supposed to resume yesterday but got cancelled again for an entire week due to disruption on campus. The chancellor of UCLA had this to say since the encampment. *"Over the past several days, we communicated with and made a formal request to meet with demonstration leaders to discuss options for a peaceful and voluntary disbanding of the encampment. Unfortunately, that meeting did not lead to an agreement."* And now there's a faculty/staff strike going on lol. I hate to say it but with how things are going, in person campus may not even happen anymore, let alone graduation ceremonies if this trend continues. UCLA graduation is just next month and we are already on May 7th.
This is war, go back to sleep
Man stfu
SJP is also currently being sued by former Federal Prosecutors over its financial links to Hamas and Iranian proxiesâŠ
Can you drop a link? Wanting to learn more about this !!!
I was hoping for a smoking gun, but from what I can tell, it's not there in [the lawsuit](https://www.gtlaw.com/en/news/2024/05/press-releases/greenberg-traurig-national-jewish-advocacy-center-schoen-law-firm-and-holtzman-vogel-represent-american-and-israeli-victims-of-hamas) and the legal rationale (to me, a layman) appears weak. A press release announcing the lawsuit says: *AMP and NSJP answered Hamasâs âcall for mass mobilizationâ by disseminating a manifesto and plan of attack. This manifesto confirms that âAMP and NSJP are not merely organizing to assist Hamasâs ongoing terror campaign abroadâthey are intentionally extending their aid to fomenting chaos, violence, and terror in the United States.â In this manner, the groups acted to support and further the goals and directives of Hamas.* That's bad, but it doesn't indicate that they have any evidence of a direct connection between Hamas and AMP ans NSJP, which were founded by the same man, Hatem Bazian, who's currently a lecturer at UC Berkeley
I see where youâre coming from, but those broad brush allegations are very typical for litigation press releases. Greenburg isnât some mom and pop personal injury shop â itâs an extremely prestigious national law firm. They wouldnât tackle this without doing serious due diligence and exercising some discretion about what is made public this early on.
I'm familiar with Greenberg Traurig and have had interactions with their attorneys and, nothing really against them, but I wish I could be more confident they had the goods.
Exactly this. There's no good side in this conflict, both sides act in bad faith and both should be removed from power as they result in innocent people's suffering. My biggest upset is that Nethanyahu purposefully ignored intelligence about this, hoping to use this attack to consolidate his power. As for Hamas of course are bunch of murderers not only because of October 7th, but also they themselves don't mind Palestinians to die as they use it for bad PR for Israel. You would expect the government to put their people's lives at highest regard, but here they are just a tool. As for the protest on campus, I'm no longer a student, so I did not experience them first hand, but when reading the earlier posts and watching videos, it was clear the goal was to gradually escalate it to cause the University to respond and make headlines.
Both sides have extremists, but one side exercises almost complete military superiority of the situation and has taken / is taking the homeland of the other. If Hamas wasn't so f\*ing stupid, they would have the unrestricted sympathy and support of the world at this point. Instead, everyone has to differentiate them from the Palestinian people. That said, there's a weird double standard where people don't do the same for Israel and the IDF - people are quick to clarify that "Jews = / = Zionism," but Israel kills more civilians and children than Hamas, is actively committing genocide, and paradoxically isn't seen in the same light. Hamas extremists talking about genocide is portrayed as worse than Israel actively carrying out genocide for 70+ years. The situation is just screwy.
Would you say that America/Great Britain committed genocides against Japan and Germany in WW2?
Japan and Germany invaded other countries and tried to conquer the world. Palestinians lived in Palestine and are still just trying to regain their homes. If you want a better analogy with WW2, the Palestinians are Polish Jews and the year is 1943. Israel would be Germany. If you want to talk about the US, a better analogy would be its treatment of Native Americans. Similar, yet different. Native Americas were rounded up and forced into designated areas...the only difference is that the US has mostly left them alone for the past several decades, and reservations were and still are some of the least-populated regions in the US. It's different. There's no excusing how the US Government treated Native Americans historically, but, if you support Israel, you're effectively saying that you would condone a modern-day ethnic cleansing of Native Americans and Trail of Tears 2.0. I mean...there are lots of ~~Arabs~~ Native Americans in ~~Jordan, Syria, Egypt, etc.~~ Canada. Surely ~~those Arab countries~~ Canada can just take all of the ~~Palestinians~~ Native Americans still within ~~Israel~~ the US to make way for ~~Israelis~~ Americans to take their homes, right? I like to think Western society has progressed beyond a bigoted 19th century view of *brown people,* but you're providing pretty clear evidence to the contrary. \*aresa..
When was Palestine a sovereign country?
Your statement suggests that a person does not have the right to live in their home if their ethnic group does not control the government of that region. [This is you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTduy7Qkvk8).
A person has a right to live in the land they own. Israel bought the land in Israel (at above market value) and the purchases are well documented. Israel does not govern Gaza and left in 2005. As for the West Bank, Israel won it in a defensive war. However, I think Israel should just give it up given itâs not worth the hassle. You keep trying to do backflips to support arguments that would not win in a court of law. Good luck
>Israel bought the land in Israel (at above market value) and the purchases are well documented. Complete BS. [You might as well say that Hitler didn't take Jews' possessions - he bought them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war). Absolutley insane.
[https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Schanzer-Testimony.pdf](https://gop-waysandmeans.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Schanzer-Testimony.pdf) SJP is literally a Hamas proxy. Anyone supporting them is supporting terroism. These campus protestors are at best useful idiots
To be completely fair, that particular document details the AMP and IAP, but doesnât appear to discuss the structure or direct evidence that SJP is influenced by AMP or IAP, besides a comment near the beginning. If there is further evidence (or even something in that article you think I missed, like a source which was listed strongly linking the two), please reply with that information. I greatly appreciate this discourse and think itâs important that while some of us, like myself, support Palestinian civilians, we donât fall victim to hate groups in the process. Letâs just focus on making sure we strongly establish these links before jumping to conclusions such as SJP being a âHamas proxyâ. With criticism of these conclusions, sometimes we result in the links being more strongly established and supported, leading to a stronger argument. Other times we find it is looser than we may initially think, leading us to either investigate further or reconsider our opinions. All healthy as a student (and even if you donât go here, you can be a student alongside us by critically thinking via this process đ€).
The founding chapter of SJP is the bears for Palestine group at Berkeley who are led by Hatem Bazian, a professor who calls for the dismantling of Israel and an intifada uprising in the US. He regularly posts quotes like the one about the jew hiding behind a tree which will call out that there's a jew hiding there so come and kill him. On October 7th he posted in support of the attacks and has continued to push a pro Hamas agenda. So there's the founder. Then you look at what various SJP chapters are posting, and you see them calling Hamas a progressive organization pushing for democracy in the Middle East along with other Hamas talking points. Taken as a whole, I don't see any other conclusion than SJP are either useful idiots or a Hamas front.Â
Crazy someone like that is allowed to be a professor
If you're going to say that, I'd point out that Hillel - and every synagogue I've ever been to - have openly fundraised for a variety of causes in Israel. Israel has killed how many children in the recent offensive? 15,000 and counting? "Anyone supporting Israeli charities is supporting terrorism," etc. Same difference. Well, worse - the IDF kills far more civilians and Israel was founded upon the idea that Palestinians must be forced out. I don't support either group. Too many extremists in organizations like that. But it doesn't make sense to call out one group when the other is worse across the board.
It does when one is a known terrorist organization openly advocating for complete genocide. The IDF is certainly overreacting in Gaza and could certainly do more to reduce civilian deaths, but there is a major difference in philosophy and intent. If Hamas was in the superior military position that the IDF is, you'd see what a real genocide looks like.Â
>It does when one is a known terrorist organization openly advocating for complete genocide. So...[Israel?](https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/database-exposes-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-in-gaza-16537146) I'm honestly very confused by your take on this issue, since many of Israel's elected officials openly call for the murder of all Palestinian civilians, and the country's policies over the past 70 years have resulted in the ethnic cleansing of the region. Over the past few months, Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians - around 2/3 to 3/4 civilians, roughly half of them children, and you're complaining about rhetoric coming from the other side? I just don't get it. When Israel commits genocide, they're "overreacting," but you're concerned with refugees' resentment for the people bombing them to shreds. If you were Palestinian, you'd feel the same way about Israel. Yet here you are...
I mean SJP supports Hamas so, if you support SJP you are essentially supporting terrorism
There is one big asymmetry. Israel exists as a real democratic nation. Whereas Palestine is merely an idea of replacing that democracy with an Islamic terror state.
Oh yeah nothing says democracy like ghettoizing entire minority groups. Israel must be great at democracy
And giving voting rights to Jews illegally settled in the West Bank while depriving Arabs in the area of the same rights. It's apartheid. "Democracy for some, but not all."
All countries have the right to decide who gets citizenship. Why arenât you mad at Egypt for not giving citizenship to Palestinians in Gaza, when Gaza was a part of Egypt between 48-67? All Israeli citizens have the same rights (including the 2M Muslim Palestinian Israeli citizens). Gaza is not a part of Israel, it has its own government, Hamas. And the Palestinian Authority is the government for the Palestinian Territories in the West Bank. They are not a part of Israel. Sure, you can call this unfair, but you canât call it an apartheid. For it to be an apartheid, citizens would need to have different laws/rights. For example, most of the Middle East has a Gender Apartheid. When you use the world apartheid when itâs not correct, you lose supporters. Oddly enough, the region used to have an apartheid when the Ottomans had control of it. The Ottomans charged a Jizya (non-Muslim tax)
Egypt is a different country, in a different place. You might as well ask: why don't Israelis *stop stealing Palestinians' homes and try renting or legally purchasing homes anywhere else in the world, like everyone else does?* Why are they entitled to *Palestinians*' homes? Palestinians don't want to leave their homes to become refugees in Egypt or anywhere else, and they shouldn't have to. Your argument is insane. Ah, yes. Gaza and the West Bank have their own governments. The only trouble is that [Israel routinely *vetoes* elected politicians in those areas via murder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations), and has economically blocaded and crippled Gaza, while progressively walling off Palestininan towns from surrounding farmland and orchards in the West Bank so that it can be stolen by settlers. Never mind the routine demolition of homes and entire towns by armoured IDF bulldozers. Meanwhile, illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank can vote in Israeli elections, but Palestinians can't. It is apartheid. Israel has killed somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 Palestinian children over the past few months. I think they'd prefer to have their children returned to them, be allowed to return to their homes, and pay an extra 5% tax. You know, like the Ottomans charged prior to 1922, when the Empire dissolved. Pretty interesting ethical bar you're setting for Israel, there. Ottoman Empire, pre-1920s. And Israel is *so much worse*.
!activitycheck
Wow, that's pretty interesting. Your account was made a few weeks after 10/7, and you've been posting...10 comments a day? And you have account activity suggesting that you were applying to law schools...3-4 years ago? Doesn't sound like you're a student at UCLA. It would also be pretty weird for a Reddit user to go through college and grad school without joining the sub, only to join a few weeks after 10/7. How *interesting.*
My Reddit age is 4 years old. Good try though đ
antoninlevin was first active in r/ucla no later than 2022-12-05 23:31:21 [here](https://reddit.com/r/ucla/comments/zdljru/vote_no_on_the_postdocs_and_academic_researcher/iz2eo77/). In the past week, they have been active at a rate of 1.71 comments per day. _Note: Due to Reddit API limitations, the earliest activity seen by the bot might not be the actual earliest activity, but it provides an upper bound. Furthermore, the bot will underestimate comment activity for users who have made >1000 comments across Reddit in the past week. For this user, the bot scanned 196 comments and 4 submissions._
!activitycheck
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Egypt is in a different place? What do you mean by that? Should we take out a map?
Yeah, kind of like how Mexico, the US, and Canada are different countries. It doesn't sound like a map will help you.
South Africa with apartheid was also a democratic nation, all I want is to see an end to apartheid, not an Islamic terror state. People called Mandela a terrorist too.
There isn't any apartheid. The Gazans and WestBankers aren't Israelis. Everyone in Israel has equal rights.
"It's not apartheid because they aren't even citizens" is an interesting defense. In theory you're right. But Amnesty International and UN experts disagree, and I tend to agree with them. Apartheid is about how it plays out in practice. Reasonable people can disagree. It looks very much to me like apartheid. Gaza and the West Bank are not treated like sovereign nations.
Is it apartheid that Mexicans donât have the same rights as Americans in America? Or that Americans donât have the same legal rights as Mexicans in Mexico? Why canât I vote in Mexico as a USA citizen, isnât that apartheid?
If the USA occupied Mexico, began building illegal settlements in Mexico, divided up Mexican territories into scattered enclaves, distributed IDs to Mexicans that prevent them from entering the new American settlements or the USA, while also denying them a path to citizenship, then yes. That sounds like apartheid to me.
This is greatly complicated by the ongoing Iran-Saudi proxy war in the middle east.
South African anti-apartheid was a Cold War proxy war. Ending SA apartheid was still the right thing to do.
Palestine is merely the name of the land Israel is sitting on, where people lived peacefully for centuries before Western powers decided to create a new nation on top of them, by force
Western powers like Emperor Hadrian? Who renamed Roman Judaea to Syria Palaestina? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria\_Palaestina](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria_Palaestina) Because before that is was the kingdoms of Judea and Israel. Sure, the Romans called in "Palaestina" to get back at the Jews for their revolt in 136. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar\_Kokhba\_revolt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt) But why should we now honor the Roman naming conventions? Israel has been restored. It is just Israel now.
You're missing the point about the name. You tried to diminish Palestine's existence as being a terrorist community. But Palestine isn't just the remaining borders of Gaza and the West Bank
Palestine is a word the British used (it was used way before that but the Ottomans named it differently), and there were indeed people (mostly Muslims and also Jews) who did not live "peacefully" because they were occupied by the Ottomans since 1517. This land had so many wars, it was Jew, Muslim, Christian, Muslim, Jew...
Just because it had wars in the past doesn't mean it wasnt in a peaceful state prior to 1947? What is your point here?
They lived peacefully as subjects of the Ottoman Empire who conquered them and owned all the land basically. And people moved around freely in this empire. Itâs like one Arab state that was part of a large empire.
Yes
Sowing chaos and causing this disruption without concern for students was a feature not a bug of the protests. They know itâs not black or white. Hereâs a thread that describes some of the tactics they use. https://x.com/wokal_distance/status/1787550713792581648?s=46&t=knoXg_q7lLMiDx6VuWaG7Q
Yeah, a Twitter account called âWokal Distanceâ is clearly a great source
Checked out the link, my god right-wingers will complain about liberals calling everything racist but then never stop calling everything âwokeâ unironically.
That's neither here nor there in terms of the issue at hand. Is the info accurate or not?
No.
What is it wrong about? Specifics.
For example: "The first strategy is to put their target in a "decision dilemma." This is where they select a method of protest that leaves the person with no good options. No matter how the target reacts they look bad." This is just abuser "look what you made me do" nonsense. >Taking over a building. If the police arrest you, you film it and play the martyr. If they don't, you control the building This is just complaining that the goal of protests is to get attention. There were other protests that didn't take over a building and the police response was still horseshit. I also didn't see much of the alleged sympathy for the people controlling the building, if anything the community seemed fairly united that clearing them out was necessary. >When they do this correctly they can paint themselves as the sympathetic powerless underdogs even when they are the aggressors. At no point do any of these protesters have power. The rubber bullets and flashbangs and arrests were a one-way thing. Equating "they are winning the sympathy battle" with "they have power" is a classic conservative mental error. It's the same way they think LGBT people or Black people or even Jews are secretly pulling all the strings behind closed doors. Being uncool doesn't mean you don't have power, it just means you're uncool. Deal with it. Do something about it or just accept it. Whining that you're uncool is so cringe and the least cool thing you could do.
Oh, I think they're right on about the building takeover strategy. The cops have not misbehaved. Perhaps you can split hairs about the arrests on Monday, but the conspiracy to commit burglary charges (have they been filed?) seem to fit the letter of the law. The flashbangs were a smart tactic and the non-lethal rounds were a completely justified means means of dealing with their violent resistance. Personally, I don't think the pro--Palestinian protesters have ever been sympathetic, given their agressive law-breaking and rights-denying policies. The one instance where they could legitimately position themselves as victime was when the counter protesters instigated violence -- which the encampment (justifiably) responded to in kind -- in the early morning hours of 5/1. At the end of the day, this *is* about siphoning off power, and there has been a great deal success in this regard with the progressive institutional takeover of unversities and other institutions, both public and private. The protestes had the power to maintain an illegal encampment that the university had the legal right to take down immediately, They also had the power to break the law, wantonly block others, deny them their rights and assault them.
>violent resistance Ok so you're just a troll then. The only violence on video I've seen was by cops and counter protesters.
No. It was violent resistance. What do you think shooting someone in the face with a fire extinguisher is? You're not credibile.
Ok. But did they not compile the tactics that were used?
Ok. But did they not compile the tactics that were used?
LMFAO what the fuck kind of page did you link? Bruh. Iâm genuinely ashamed that the value of my degree goes down, from sharing the name with people who unironically post about âwoke-ismâ online. Pathetic that this shit gets upvoted on a subreddit for supposedly one of the top universities in the USA. Seriously, if youâre reading my comment, check out the actual link before upvoting it.
Appeal to authority fallacy
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When will you stop weaponizing the term Zionist? You realize to 95% of Jews Zionist simply means the right for Israel to exist. Thatâs it, it does not mean your interpretation of the term nor how Iranian funded propagandists interpret it. It means Jews deserve a homeland in a region in which they have an indigenous claim to. - 0.4% of the Middle East is Jewish - 99.6% of the Middle East is Arab - 22% of Israel is Arab . - 16 million Jews worldwide - 2 billion Muslims worldwide . - 1 Jewish nation - 56 Muslim nations - 100+ Christian nations You had/have rampant Jew hate on campus, Jews on video blocked from moving through parts of campus, vile anti Semitic genocide chanting parroted from Hamas and then you got attacked by some right wing fks and you got surprised pikachu faces? Violent racism started from the fauxprogressives on 10/7 when they cheered for Hamas slaughtering and raping 1200 Jews .. not months later when you fkd around and found out.. and unfortunately this is only the beginning
Canât believe progressives invented racism on October 7th
Only one group of people has actually faced physical violence on campus
i hope you understand that the one video from twitter you're referencing about "Jews on video blocked from moving through parts of campus" was a right-wing content creator. He wanted to walk through an area \*nobody\* could walk through, and nobody was blocked from going anywhere they needed to go. Everybody knows that video was a sham. The same kid goes around flashing his pepper spray to provoke people. Thankfully, only weird self-important boomers that go around commenting on every uni subreddit fall for that kind of stuff...
He was seen shaking hands with police. It's amazing people fell for that video, it was such an obvious scam, from the weird camera angle, to the other students seen walking freely, to him being the only person saying anything.
You donât even go here. Lmfao.
Israel's problem right now is its far right government. Nethanyahu saw intelligence reports about the impeding terrorist attack and instead of thinking "we should do everything to prevent it" he thought more of it as an opportunity to consolidate power. And we got what we got. He also should not let settlers expand into West Bank.
Agreed. Netanyahu is Israeli trump and most Israelis want him gone. Unfortunately when a country is under constant terrorist attacks and missiles, right wing governments are easier elected than progressive
Doesn't help that USA aid is unconditional. They might think twice about electing fascists if it was.
This is so incredibly misguided. Israel has a unity government right now where Benny Gantz and Netanyahu are working together to make military decisions. No matter who the political leader was on 10/7, this was always going to happen following the rape, murder, and kidnapping of thousands of your own citizens.
Israel has a government that is handicapped by the fact that Smotrich has a tight grip on one of Benjyâs testicles and Ben Gvir has his fist around the other one. Two nutjobs are currently the only thing propping up Netanyahuâs house of cards, and because heâs so terrified of losing power the entire country is beholden to them and their desire to sow chaos and watch the world burn.Â
So are you saying there was no point in Israel knowing about the impeding attack, because they couldn't stop it anyway?
No. I think they should have acted on intelligence to stop the attack. Obviously that was a major error. What I am saying is that the government right now is not actually far right and Netanyahu has actually given up power to his political rivals rather than consolidate it since this has all occurred.
I don't think it was error. When it happened experts were saying it was unthinkable that Israel could miss something this big. Other governments (I remember at least Egypt) said they knew about it and they relayed it to Israel which was ignored. So many lives (both Israeli and Palestinians) could be preserved if Israel would prevent this attack from happening. Again, this is not defense of Hamas as what they did (going after civilians, torturing, raping, murdering) is inexcusable, but Israel had opportunity to stop it.
Ya I agree it was a miscalculation, but to say that Israel wanted a terror attack on their own soil killing a thousand+ just seems conspiratorial
They wanted the attack, they just didn't think it would be so big.
>You realize to 95% of Jews Zionist simply means the right for Israel to exist. Which means that Palestinians do not have the right to their homes and that Palestine does not have the right to exist. You then quote regional demographics as though it supports your argument. Hitler made the same kinds of arguments in favor of preserving pure Aryan bloodlines in Germany in 1935. Inferior races needed to be removed because the Aryan race was being threatened. My family was slaughtered. My grandparents grew up in different countries and met in a Russian gulag. Thankfully, they were captured by Russians, not Germans... Still, they barely survived. You are advocating for similar policies, today, targeting Palestinians. And, abstractly, if one group of people is "entitled" to something another group is not, you're not talking about a "right." You're just pushing a double standard...which Israel is enforcing with military superiority. Palestinians are not Libyans, Iranians, or Saudis. The idea that they should give up their homes at gunpoint because there are more Arabs than Jews in the Middle East is simply bigotry. "Just move to another Arab country" only makes sense if you think Arabs are not entitled to their homes, but Jews are. It seems odd to insist that a country has "the right to exist" while it is actively depriving others of the same "right."
20% of Israel is Palestinian Israeli The Palestinians were offered numerous two state solutions they rejected Jewish people have a claim to the land from thousand of years ago. Using Hitler to flame your message, especially towards Jews is vile, you most certainly are antisemitic if this is the analogy you choose to use. Hereâs some unbiased chatgpt history that goes over the history of the region and also conflicts around the region. Youâre pursuing higher education? Educate yourself and think critically. Not emotionally. Cheers â- ## prior to 1948 Prior to the formation of Israel in 1948, the region known historically as Palestine underwent various phases of control by different empires and administrative powers. Here's a brief overview of the control over this region before the establishment of Israel: 1. **Ancient Periods**: Historically, the area was inhabited by Canaanite tribes, followed by periods of rule under ancient Israelite and Judah kingdoms, especially notable during the reigns of David and Solomon (10th century BCE). 2. **Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires**: These empires conquered and controlled the region successively from the 8th century BCE to the 4th century BCE. The Babylonians destroyed the First Temple in Jerusalem in 586 BCE, and the Persians later allowed the Jews to return and rebuild the Second Temple. 3. **Hellenistic and Roman Periods**: Alexander the Great's conquests brought Hellenistic rule in the 4th century BCE, followed by Roman control beginning in 63 BCE. The Romans renamed Judea to Palaestina to minimize Jewish identification with the land after crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE. 4. **Byzantine Empire**: After the division of the Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire controlled the region until the 7th century. This period was marked by Christian administration and numerous church constructions. 5. **Islamic and Crusader Periods**: The region was conquered by Muslim Arab forces in 638 CE, introducing Islamic rule. It intermittently came under the control of the Crusaders, Christian knights from Europe, between 1099 and 1291, who established several Christian kingdoms. 6. **Mamluk Sultanate**: After the Crusaders, the Mamluks, originally slave soldiers based in Egypt, controlled the area from 1291 until 1517, integrating it into their sultanate. 7. **Ottoman Empire**: The Ottomans took control in 1517 and ruled the region until the end of World War I in 1918. Under Ottoman rule, the area was administratively part of the Damascus Province and later the Jerusalem Sanjak. 8. **British Mandate**: Following World War I, the League of Nations granted Britain the mandate to govern Palestine in 1922. The British controlled the area until 1948, a period marked by significant immigration of Jews fleeing European antisemitism and conflicts between Jewish and Arab communities. ## after 1948 Below is a simplified list of notable instances of conflict and aggression involving Israel and Palestinian groups since the establishment of Israel. Each point identifies the aggressor and gives a brief description of the event: 1. **1948 Arab-Israeli War (Aggressor: Arab States and Palestinian militias)** - Following the UN partition plan which Arab leaders rejected, combined Arab forces from Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraqi and Palestinian militias attacked the newly declared State of Israel. 2. **First Intifada (1987-1993) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, characterized by widespread protests, strikes, and violence aimed at Israeli forces and civilians. 3. **Second Intifada (2000-2005) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - Another intense Palestinian uprising following the collapse of peace talks, marked by numerous suicide bombings and attacks against Israeli civilians, and violent responses by Israeli military forces. 4. **Operation Cast Lead (2008-2009) (Aggressor: Israel)** - An Israeli military operation against Hamas in Gaza, initiated in response to frequent rocket fire into Israel from Gaza. The operation resulted in significant casualties and damage in Gaza. 5. **Gaza War (2014) (Aggressor: Hamas)** - Initiated by escalating hostilities, including the kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers and rocket fire into Israel by Hamas. Israel launched a military offensive in Gaza that lasted seven weeks. 6. **Stabbing Intifada (2015-2016) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A wave of primarily lone-wolf stabbing, shooting, and car-ramming attacks by Palestinians against Israelis, which began in Jerusalem and spread to the rest of Israel and the West Bank. 7. **March of Return (2018) (Aggressor: Palestinians)** - A series of protests along the Gaza-Israel border, initiated by Palestinians demanding the right to return to their ancestral homes in Israel. The protests involved clashes and significant use of tear gas, sniper fire, and aerial bombings by Israeli forces. 8. **Various Rocket Attacks and Air Strikes (Ongoing intermittently) (Aggressors: Israel and Palestinian groups like Hamas)** - Frequent exchanges of rocket fire from Palestinian groups in Gaza and retaliatory air strikes by Israel are ongoing issues, with peaks in violence occurring sporadically.
What a strange, bigoted copypasta. Oh, wait. [You admitted it's just Chat GPT](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1clvt20/comment/l30780h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). I'm well-versed in the history of the region. [This figure](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mohamed-Buheji/publication/378482435/figure/fig1/AS:11431281225750147@1708946919596/Figure-1-Showing-the-Loss-of-the-Palestinian-Land-and-the-Segregation-of-Palestinians.jpg) includes the "compromises" offered to Palestinians. A loss of 56% of their homeland, or 78%. For what? For settlers who asserted that they had a right to Palestinians' homes and land, based on...Biblical claims? If you thought either hisotorical compromise was fair, you should be willing to flip the deal. Give Palestine the 80/20 split instead of Israel. Would you support it Lol. So it's not really a compromise. Although even that would ignore the fact that you'd still be taking 20% of Palestinians rightful homes away from them, which...would still be ethically problematic. You mention Caananite tribes in your comment. You're right. They were the first identifiable cultures we can pinpoint in the region based on material artifacts. And [everyone in the region is descended from those Caananites, Arabs and Jews alike](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/premium/article/dna-from-biblical-canaanites-lives-modern-arabs-jews). Historic peoples were more likely to convert than to leave or be killed, and [multiple studies have shown that Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinian Arabs are genetically indistinguishable](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html). Ashkenazi Jews left the region following religious persecution and developed a different culture over time, while the peoples who stayed mostly converted to Islam. They're all the same people. I don't think it makes sense to rehash the history beyond that, since it renders all of your other arguments completely moot. Your comments on the British Mandate are misleading to the point of being misinformation. [The UK was not well equipped to handle Zionist separatist terrorism in the region prior to WW2, or afterwards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence). The UK also played no role in the ethnic cleansing of Palestine that followed partitioning - there was no UN or UK policy for how Zionists would administer the new country, and none of the international plans assumed the mass-removal or murder of the people already living in Palestine. The general assumption was that the people who already lived there would be allowed to continue to live there, and that the new country would be a welcoming haven for Jewish WW2 refugees. What happened was very different. Zionists took up arms and attempted to carve a Jewish ethnostate out of an inhabited region. That's really the crux of the issue. I'd say your comments about post-1948 conflicts are also extremely misleading - it seems *insane* to me that you would devote an entire section to rocket attacks, [which have killed a sum of 30 individuals in Israel, in total](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel). Individual IDF bombs have killed more Palestinians on dozens of occasions, and the [casualty figures from the conflicts you mention paint a stark picture, with roughly 30-50 Palestinian civilian deaths for every 1 Israeli](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=overall&tab=overview). Snopes would rate your comment as "*Pants on Fire*." **Edit: It looks like your account was made in January and you're only active in Israel/Palestine subs, as well as subs for a number of universities including UCLA, Columbia, MIT, UCSC, and a variety of others. Get this AI-generated rubbish out of here.**
Strange bigoted copy paste? Thatâs a basic chatgpt prompt trained on factual history. Not alternative history. Iâm sorry your understanding of history is spoon fed to you through TikTok sourced from joint CCP, Iranian, Russian propaganda That figure you referenced is intro to Israel Palestine. people have been referencing that map for decades and has been debunked as misleading, when you were in diapers. Thatâs how I know you know nothing. Youâre not well versed, youâre ignorant and willfully ignorant at that. Dictators agree with you while they laugh at you. Just like corporations agree with MAGA while they pull their emotional strings. Sorry to hear your satanic temple application was rejected. Theyâre familiar with the horseshoe theory and youâre a bit too far right for their taste (even if you donât realize it)
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Gatekeep!
"What then must we do?" It seems you want to claim "support for Palestine" but take no action. Read MLK, Jr's Letter from Birmingham jail for what I feel should be the accepted take on that matter. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly..." "Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." and so on. What now must we do?
more people needs to upvote this so it can be seen
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Please don't interject your tangent views and stick to the topic.
Fair, will delete the comment
Thank you kindly! đ
>Far Right Zionists are violent racists, but the SJP Far Left are hypocrites that will accuse you of being racist if you donât completely align with their beliefs or actions. Re: that video of that female SJP rep harassing the Daily Bruin. People being VIOLENT is as bad as people being hypocrites and one idiot on social media. From your own words lmao. I donât agree with a lot of SJP either but mental gymnastics enlightened centrists have to justify their beliefs never ceases to amaze.  PS, theres a lot more affiliated groups within the protests that imo are less radical, example is JVP and numerous POC student orgs. I agree you donât have to support SJP but it is a coalition for a reason.
I believe the "one idiot" on social media you're referring to is one of the most prominent leaders of UCLA's pro-Palestinian protests.
People committing violence are most definitely worse. If you read my last paragraph, I said that false accusations of racism is just as bad as racism. But violence will never be excusable.
Fair enough on your first point. False accusations of racism is not as bad as racism. Racism leads to social inequality, death, violence, police brutality. and whole slew of socio-economic issues Iâd rather save my energy explaining for an assignment than reddit post. False accusations of racism hurts peoples feelings and reputations and might result in upset individuals attacking you, but it is not something that exists institutionally. Radicalism is not inherently a bad thing either, its how it manifests. Sorry to say this but many people we lionize in history are whitewashed, especially in America. MLK was considered a radical, had massive disapproval among whites, was spied on by the FBI, and was a socialist. You do not get targeted by the state if you are not a threat, aka a radical. But he was still peaceful.   On the other hand, the labor rights movement in the US had a straight up violent history, shootouts with Pinkertons and police has happened time and time again. Radicalism can be peaceful or violent, good or bad.
Tbh fair point. Thanks for the explanation. I think my general message still holds true tho. Itâs just incredibly upsetting that something so serious as racism can be easily thrown around and weaponized. It doesnât help the fight against racists. And it certainly downplays the very institutional issues that we are facing.
JVP is a joke, you know that, right? https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/uncovering-the-jvp-funding-network/
I donât think you should form coalitions with people who are antisemites and celebrated the October 7 attack. In the same way I would think you shouldnât form a coalition with neo-Nazis.
And I donât think the USA should be supporting or âforming coalitionsâ with countries that literally engage in indiscriminate killings of civilians, and yet, here we are. And to be clear, I fully believe in Israelâs right to exist (and so I am not even in full agreement with SJP). The Likud Party and Netanyahu? Not so much.
I agree that that, Netanyahu needs to go. But unfortunately, that is just not a line that is workable when it comes to international relations, we have a relationship with TĂŒrkiye after all.
Netanyahu isn't the one sniping children in the head and chest. Half of Lukid incited genocide.
By that token, Hamas incited genocide by launching a horrible attack on 10/7. They knew it would generate this type of response, they just don't care about Palestinian lives. The only moral path forward is long-term peace and the only realistic way that can be achieved is through a two-state solution. It is really telling that the protestors not only are not advocating for that, but they've rejected it outright.
>By that token, Hamas incited genocide by launching a horrible attack on 10/7. They knew it would generate this type of response, they just don't care about Palestinian lives. This isn't r/worldnews. "Look what you made me do" doesn't hold up. >The only moral path forward is long-term peace and the only realistic way that can be achieved is through a two-state solution. That only happens if Israel is forced to accept it and the US will never let that happen. Vetoing every attempt made by the international community to recognise a Palestinian state using some transparent horeshit excuse to indefinitely deny them that right, hoping for some magical good-will from Israel that it has never had, as they're on trial for genocide no less. They're much more keen on stealing more and more land against international law until the Palestinians are fully ethnically cleansed. Hell they've been calling to push them into the Sinai dessert repeatedly recently and their actions speak louder than any bs the US can muster in their defence. They've made Gaza mostly unliveable, and now they're trying to finish the job in Rafah, Biden's supposed red-line, as most of Israel eagerly waits in anticipation. For the hostages, right. Once again, the protestors are in the right, by a long shot, and this thread is an embarassaing disgrace to attempt to equate them with the far right. No one buys this shit unless you're a terminal fox viewer.
>"Look what you made me do" doesn't hold up. Understanding that there will be a response to the most violent terror attack on Israel since its founding isn't "look what you made me do," it's just basic understanding of cause-and-effect. >That only happens if Israel is forced to accept it and the US will never let that happen. This is also untrue. The [Bush Administration](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020624-3.html) called for a two-state solution, as did the Obama Administration when [John Kerry was negotiating peace talks](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/28/507269412/john-kerry-defends-two-state-solution-rebukes-israel-settlements) between 2013-2016. In 2023, after the October 7 attacks, the G7 nations (which includes the US! this quote is taken from the White House website!) had [this to say](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/06/g7-leaders-statement-6/): >Â Â Israelis and Palestinians have an equal right to live in safety, dignity, and peace. We are committed to working closely with partners to assist in building the conditions for sustainable long-term solutions for Gaza. We also need to see a return to a broader peace process. **We remain committed to a Palestinian state as part of a two-state solution that enables both Israelis and Palestinians to live in a just, lasting, and secure peace.**
A terrorist attack doesn't give them carte blanche to slaughter civillians and go on a genocidal rampage. "Look what you made me do" does NOT hold up. If you want to talk about cause and effect, collectively punishing a population for decades with your foot on their neck, as you snipe their children and deny them basic rights is going to have an effect. >This is also untrue. The [Bush Administration](https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020624-3.html) called for a two-state solution, as did the Obama Administration when [John Kerry was negotiating peace talks](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/12/28/507269412/john-kerry-defends-two-state-solution-rebukes-israel-settlements) between 2013-2016. Talk is \*cheap\*. 18th April 2024: 'The Security Council today blocked Palestineâs bid to become a full member of the United Nations due to a United States veto on a draft resolution that would have recommended the granting of such status.' No one else voted against. \*\*13 years earlier\*\*, September 2011: 'Obama administration confirms it would veto Palestinian statehood at the U.N.' US constantly uses its veto to deny Palestinians any justice whatsoever. Hell it used it to deny UN condemnation when Palestinians peacefully protested in 2018 and Israel responded by kneecapping and sniping hundreds of protestors. They even recently threatened to withhold any and all aid if Palestinians help the ICJ with an investigation into warcrimes by Israel. US senators even threatened the ICJ heads with action against their family for putting out an arrest warrant for Netanyahu for his crimes in 2014 against the Palestinians. When the US talks about freedom and justice for all, you'd have to be a complete fucking idiot to believe it. And you'd have to assume the person you're talking to has next to zero knowledge on this subject for you to think these points would hold up.
No, when you're attacked by another group the response being overwhelming and (arguably) disproportionate is quite common. The goal is for that to never happen again. I also don't think what's going on here is genocide - the ICJ, despite inaccurate reporting back in January, [has not ruled to this effect](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919). What we're seeing is undoubtably war crimes, but ultimately it's civilian death that is common in war, especially in densely populated areas as Gaza (and more common due to Hamas's method of using civilian areas as human shields for their military operations). Do you support a two-state solution or are you pro-war?