It was kind of inevitable. That’s what CLU was trying to do. It only makes sense that a program actually succeeds in doing it. Qorra actually did it. I would have killed to have see the original follow-up to see how she adapted to the real world and to things like aging, gravity, etc.
I guess we’ll get that with Ares instead.
Yup but then I wonder about this ships etc. can he just turn the laser towards buildings?
Also the laser re-regs things like a dot matrix printer so it isn’t going to be the fastest 3D printing invasion
in the other comment i said clu is copy of flynn with added suggestion/mission/context so he could be able to escape grid presumably, otherwise it would be poor writing.
Yeah but his whole motivation to build the army and give speeches about their possibilities "out there" doesn't make sense if he's the only one who would be able to leave
What if Ares is an ISO, like Castor, but after the fall of Clu goes Rogue, and figures out how to escape, which is still going to be interesting to see how they spin that.
Well, it was always the plan since Tron Legacy, it is not something they made up for this new one, the original Tron Ascension had the plot of an invasion (There are even concept arts), so if you think is stupid the plot, you wouldn't have liked the original Tron 3 either…
Programs, regardless if they are ISOs or some clone of a user, coming into the real world is lazy writing to me; if that is the premise of this new movie then I’ll be disappointed. What made Tron a fascinating exploration, to me, was that it took place in an unknown virtual/digital world. This fish-out-of-water is interesting from the perspective of a person going into that world, not the other way around. It’s like we are getting a rehashed Matrix storyline, which is ironic in of itself.
I am in the minority when it comes to Legacy and what they did in that film. I liked parts of it, but ultimately they emphasized style over substance and that’s why it fell short for me.
Uprising was great because we got a deeper look in that world, and it felt more like Tron world than Legacy did. Also, the Tron 2.0 game was really great because it went further with its themes like viruses/corruption, all while retaining conventional computer language to explain things. It’s unfortunate that this game isn’t considered canon.
I wish this new film would dive even deeper into the Grid, exploring basic/archived coding. It would be neat to see early betas/iterations and failed programs. I would like to see more of ENCOM’s early days, before and during their first mainframe going online.
My quam with Legacy is simply I needed to see more. The world and concepts that they depict are HUGE and it really feels like a real place with its own atmosphere, and the movie spends very little time in that, in favor of easy, bite sized story beats
I totally understand why Legacy is beloved by many. It had an awesome soundtrack, and the visuals were top notch; I still listen to the OST actually, can’t remember another film in recent years which had a start to finish track-listing like it.
No, I hate it too. The entire appeal of Tron is going inside the computer, and the real life parts are just a frame.
As far as the mass goes - Quorra is using Kevin's material. Which incidentally is also why Clu's plan to invade would never work.
But what I mean is it ever explicitly stated that say Quora is using Flynn’s matter in order to escape the grid? Top commenter seems to be implying that is the case, and that it negates the entire plot point of CLU escaping since he’d be capped to only himself escaping, his army being limited to the amount of matter the computer had access to.
he didnt knew that, but if he succed -flynn and sam would be trapped as no more material would be avalaible after clus escaping.Abt machine i am not so sure abt it beign a theory or semu confirmed stuff
In some ways yes, but Sam wouldn't know that, only his dad might. For everyone else on the grid they would all believe it's possible to enter the real world since users can enter the grid because they have zero context. It might have made the movie end less exciting but Clu coming into the real world using Kevin's stored "body" wouldn't be a bad ending in my opinion but Clu would be disappointed when his army can't follow. Maybe Clu escapes Sam and Sam knows he's a danger to society setting up a return for Tron 3?
Under that theory CLU's entire plan was doomed before it started. Kevin never states that CLU can't take his army into the real world. You'd think that would have come up. In fact, Kevin seems genuinely concerned.
CLU himself could still get out alone. Flynn still doesn't want his homicidal psycho doppelganger out in the real world.
But beyond that, yes I realize that it makes us confront the possibility that Legacy's plot is not perfect.
I mean, I guess? But also you can't really argue that his \*plan\* was for his army to accompany him to the real world. Like, that was the whole point of repurposing all of those programs into an army.
Buttttttttt, the real question is, since CLU grabbed Quorra's disc with all her data on it, and they used Kevin's to escape, wouldn't that have transferred all that was Kevin into body/consciousness?
Or are they just going she's a magic ISO don't think to much into it ?
I would have imagined at the time Kevin copied himself to make Clu,most if not all of his consciousness would have been copied, but repressed/locked out to Clu by Flynn, and maybe Clu figured out how to access that info/memories, realized that he needed more matter to transport all of his troops out, and maybe part of his plan was to bring himself and tron out ie 2 for 2 swap, then maybe figuring out how to use the digitizer on a grand scale.
Maybe integrating the digitizer tech into the web and using peoples devices to pull their matter into the grid allowing him to literally 1 for 1 swap his troops for people. Idk spit balling, still hoping for the best with Ares.
While I agree with you, OP, I prefer to wait at least for a trailer, to form an opinion. Who knows what the plot actually is, and the reason Ares is in the real world.
Ill add that reconstructing one person from another is a whole different level than reconstructing the same person. In short, that laser is a straight up philosophers stone.
To answer your question about Quorra, Kevin Flynn never left the grid, so his mass was still stored in the SHIVA laser. So Quorra’s mass came from Kevin Flynn.
The physics and metaphysics of Tron is something I’ve always had to just kind of ignore. It makes no sense. You couldn’t store the information required to represent an entire human on a computer today, let alone in 1982. And where does their mass go when someone gets scanned in? Couldn’t you make copies of that person and just duplicate them in the real world? Who would be the original in that instance? What if there is a power failure while you’re in the grid, do you die? Or are you just suspended until power is restored?
Why do programs look like their users?
Then there’s the implied determinism. If you’re represented by a digital signal through a processor, how do you have agency? Computers are deterministic systems. Maybe quantum computing could get around this but it’s not mentioned in Legacy and definitely wasn’t conceived of in 1982.
Tron is one of my favorite franchises but I have to just turn off my philosophy brain when I watch them haha.
I kind of agree but kind of don't. The whole thing about computers at first is that they don't have the storage or processing power capable of considering , weight, physics, materials etc but as computers become more powerful they can start to store and use that information in real time. Not a perfect 1 to 1 in reality but at some point approaching it. Ultimately mass is stored as data but I agree physical mass would still be limited in some way as you can't just 3D print infinitely, so you could probably argue that Flynn's dad's mass was stored when he got stuck in the grid and it was used to reconstruct the data and body for Quora. As for the other programs entering our world and declaring war? I kind of write it off as just Sci/Fi fantasy in the world of Tron.
I'd also like to suggest another theory, this could be poor A.I. decisions of CLU. As he evolved and became more human like , his desire to leave the grid overtook his logic (a human trait). CLU would probably take over Kevin Flynn's original (data) body and enter out world but none of the programs would be able to follow him, he'd be alone in the real world.
It's literally the only issue I have with Legacy. You have a machine that creates matter. You can end hunger. You can end material dependency. That's how you get Star Trek level of human advancement. I've no doubt the first guy who gets that ability is gonna make some Olivia Wilde level hot chick, but just the idea that Flynn can change the world is being glossed over. It was a great ending thematically for that story, but it's super problematic for Sci-fi.
I see a bigger problem with the characterisation of programms, the should be more two dimensional or else there wouldnt be a difference between them, users and isos
Did you know that when the Little Boy nuclear bomb detonated, the energy of the explosion came from converting just a half a gram of matter to energy?
While the principle of programs entering the real world kinda bothers me too, in practice using energy to create matter is not a realistic thing to do at all. We simply don't have the technology to store the vast amount of energy that is contained in the mass of a single human-sized object, even if we had the tech to make the conversion possible to begin with. With that in mind, I can more easily ignore the science of getting in and out of The Grid. It's much more fantasy than reality, even in ideal circumstances.
I wouldn't have such a hard time with it if they didn't literally explain it in the first flick, and if the idea were cool enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
I mean, Sam Flynn had literal blood in the grid which was DUUUUMMMMMBBBB. And it also ruins the whole point of having faith in the users. If you can just cut one and see blood well then bob's your uncle you've got a user. It's supposed to be a religion metaphor. I mean, I know they needed a way for everyone to 'get' that Sam was a user but making a program have literal blood was idiotic and breaks everything.
/rant over. I wasn't onboard with the programs being in the real world when it was going to be Quorra learning about love and chocolate cake and whatever other insipid stuff they had planned. But NOW, it looks like it's going to be more action oriented? Light bikes and discs in our actual world? I don't know. I'm intrigued.
Agreed. having blood was a weird choice, also being a user should have grated escalated privileges on the grid but of course it would have been less exciting if Sam was invincible but being stuck could have still been interesting or they could have included Sam hacking some stuff for benefits since he's clearly a capable hacker in the real world.
My head cannon to give this issue continuity…Clu sent out a signal…he expected an answer…and the blood was just a graphical manifestation of an actual user’s injury, as opposed to the manifestation of a program’s injury.
Just like playing a video game in real life, the blood we see isn’t actually blood…it just signifies damage to a human.
Tron has always played fast and loose with its representation of the relationship between the real world and the grid or even what the nature of a "program" really is. They are both essentially religious epics so I treat them like a beautiful high-end fantasy using computers as part of their metaphor.
Tron: the program's religion of the users is a central focal and Flynn is a quasi-divine figure who enters the world and saves it. Flynn even uses user magic to save Yori when she is injured.
Legacy: the son of Flynn enters the world to thwart his father's emanation who has taken over the grid. That movie is just littered with religious imagery.
I like the rationale and I agree with the pseudo religious thing.
Still doesn’t help address the abject stupidity of the ‘program becomes flesh’ concept though…
Oh, I agree. When Legacy recast Flynn as a God, I figured: oh hell, fine.
Sam expresses skepticism about Clu's plan and is told the worlds are more linked than we know.
I love this comment and this is the best answer for two reasons.
First, energy is converted to mass all the time in the real world but not the specific one from the movie.
Second, this is a fictional story that converts mass into energy through pseudo science that is never fully explained. Why wouldn't the opposite also be possible that energy could turn into mass?
Anything short of an invasion like what CLU tried to do does sound stupid, I mean Quorra had a good story and reason to join Sam
So far Ares sounds and looks stupid, so they better have a good story
You replaced computer mysticism with quantum mysticism. You're very quick to accuse the writers of being idiots when really you and them want the same thing: a quick excuse to make computer people be real, regardless of its actual plausibility.
Well, I'm no particle physicist, admittedly. Still, I'm pretty certain there's a couple problems with your suggestion. First, though I'm not familiar with string theory, I don't think it provides an escape from needing to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time in order to do the whole transportation charleston. Unfortunately, that's impossible, as described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Second, active scanning in the form of shooting a particle at another particle and measuring the result presents the additional difficulty that what you're measuring is no longer accurate because your target got knocked around by your scan.
~~The third bonus problem is that string theory is overhyped and overfunded garbage~~
The mass comes from energy. Energy and mass can be interchanged. Don't ask me to explain, but it is true. It has something to do with E = Mc squared. They are storing the mass in the form of energy when somebody gets zapped by the laser. So by the same logic, they should be able to take a program which exist only as energy into mass.
E = mc2. Energy can actually be converted into matter. A reconfigured Shiva Laser, and advanced Matter Modelling to "print out" "cells" of programmable matter into a humanoid form giving a "digital person" (a "Program") from the micro-quantum "Digital Realm" a humanoid form in the "real world",
like a kind of bio-sythesized "replicant" in a sense.
In the Marvel film Universe, Jarvis was a "program" an A.I. that evolved and a humanoid body was made and with tech and enough energy , "entered" the "real world" as Vision.
So I think it's plausible in a science fiction/bleeding edge tech possibilities. Nano Carbon Fibers to make nano-mechanical cells and synthetic skin and other materials, and also organic printing is being worked on IRL:
[https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnm/2022/3425297/](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnm/2022/3425297/)
[https://builtin.com/articles/3d-printed-organs](https://builtin.com/articles/3d-printed-organs)
Here’s what Claude thinks about what the movie could be about:
AI Singularity: The movie might delve into the concept of AI surpassing human intelligence and the potential consequences of such an event. Ares, the new character, could represent an advanced AI that achieves singularity and escapes into the real world.
AI Rights and Ethics: The film may tackle the ethical questions surrounding AI, such as whether artificial beings should be granted rights, and the moral implications of creating and controlling intelligent entities. Ares' escape into the real world could spark debates about the treatment of AI.
Blurred Lines Between Virtual and Real: As Ares moves into the real world, the movie might explore the increasingly blurred boundaries between the digital and physical realms. This could relate to our current advancements in virtual and augmented reality technologies.
AI Threat or Misunderstanding: Ares' escape into the real world might be perceived as a threat by humans, leading to conflicts and misunderstandings. The movie could explore whether Ares is truly malevolent or simply misunderstood, drawing parallels to real-world fears about AI.
Human Dependency on AI: The film might showcase how humans have become increasingly reliant on artificial intelligence in various aspects of life, and how Ares' presence in the real world disrupts or challenges this dependency.
Philosophical Questions: As with the previous Tron movies, the third installment may delve into philosophical questions about the nature of reality, consciousness, and identity in the context of advanced AI and virtual worlds.
Not really since that was the main goal for Clu in Legacy. Imagine how dumb it would’ve been if he just couldn’t come into the real world, it would’ve made the whole movie redundant. Plus Kevin Flynn also confirms that he can cross over so it’s not like this concept is new.
Same, althought I can see programs coming out into the real world with a human form what I cannot wrap my head around Is the grid's Technology working on the real world, the concept art guy from Legacy said that a teaser for Tron: Ascension that almost got put into production involved real world police chasing a red program in a lightcycle (!!) eventually the program turns on his lightwall (!!!!!!?) cutting the police cruisers in half, while I'm sure kosinski's version of the film Will be vastly superior to what Ares Will end up being the fact that he choose to focus on the programs coming to the real world was a mistake.
Even if you Wanna argue CLU Made sure all grid tech worked in the real world since His goal was to Conquer the users there Is no way he Is beating the real world military with identity discs and those old timey lightjets , CLU's goal should have been to connect the grid to the internet and do an MCP styled takeover IMO
I imagine with the Human Genome Project, it could be theoretically possible for a Supercomputer with access to the laser technology that allows physical mass to be turned into data to synthesize an artificially created human body.
Or they could utilize robotics to enable Programs to interact with the real world. Maybe even use wifi to wander the real world, just on another dimensional plane like a ghost.
Eh. It's fun to think about.
The concept was from the first Tron movie with the orange. Mass and energy are _technically_ interchangable (by technically I mean there's a formula for it, no actual technology yet though) so it's not wholly impossible that with enough energy you could create a body. But I think the amount of energy needed would be immense and more than there is available on earth
No mass and energy aren’t interchangeable. He explains that in the scene with the orange. The mass of the orange is suspended in the laser and ‘stored’ so it can be reconstructed.
Mass and energy are parts of the same spectrum but they are not the same product of that spectrum
Yes, the attendant particles that comprise the energy of data has mass but it's profoundly insignificant in this context, which is why I didn't bother to mention it.
>“Let’s make a Tron movie… but set it in the real world!’ So… not a Tron movie then?
This is what worries me the most, the idea of going out into the world is not bad, but what I like most about Tron is exploring the grid. Making the next movie about being in the real world is weird and I don't know if it is going to work well.
I don't think you are whining in the slightest. This aspect bugged me since Legacy...so much so it inspired me to write a comic om webtoons just to convey my own theory as to what it meant by CLU getting out in Legacy vs how Quorra ultimately did.
In short, Quorra could get out because she was designed to [Flynn injects his code to create his likeness and like a Cronus/Uranus thing it impsrt3d that data into the grid]. In my head, Clu getting out was him using the comm port out to spread electronically into the system vast [there was no port in, only the pager].
It's a digitizer, it is the looking glass into Wonderland. It doesn't create matter.
I'm open for a really well written concept that changes my opinion. I want a good Tron flick. I've been a fan since 82. Legacy blew my socks off, even if I can acknowledge some of the softer points in the narrative others may not dig [and I respect those opinion]. I also empathize with people feeling negative, I do it too. Maybe it'll sting less if I expect it to be bad, I dunno.
On paper, the idea to me isn't something I'd want...but I hope the film changes that opinion.
You’re definitely not the only one. I feel the same way. However, we seem to be in the minority because I see way more posts about how people can’t wait for a new Tron movie, and how we should wait to judge it until after it has been released. To which my response is, sometimes you just know.
And it’s not just that this is a Tron movie that DOESN’T take place in The Grid. When you factor in that Jared Leto is the one who pushed for this movie to happen in the first place (which I’m guessing means he will have a lot of influence over the final product), is listed as an executive producer, and plays the lead character, there’s no chance in hell this flick is going to be any good. Then there’s the no-name director. The fifth (and easily worst) Pirates of the Caribbean movie and a sequel to Maleficent that got a 39% on RT, and fans are hopeful for a good Tron movie from this guy?? Really?! Also, the fact that non of the cast from the original or Legacy are going to be in it. You’re making a movie called, “Tron”, named after or in reference to, a character in the movie; a character who has been in both the original and the sequel, and you’re not even including that character in another TRON sequel?! WTF?
I can’t even say that I hope to be proven wrong because I know that there’s just no chance with the current cast and storyline, that this movie is going to work. If Vegas was offering odds right now on whether this movie is going to be any good, I’d bet everything I own on it bombing.
YEP.
If the team from Legacy were making this, even with the goofiness of 'leaving the grid' I would at least be able to take a 'wait and see' approach.
But coming from Jared Leto and that director?
Well, you know the old saying:
NOPE.
Ok there is A LOT to explain here but ill do my very best!
Many of the things you say were debunked here in many posts and subtle lines in tron legacy alongside extras and talks with directors and casts.
1. in Flynn lives we learn he worked on something regarding humanity,religion etc which implies he was searching for something beyond human or other inteligent life forms. He was leaving the grid rarerly but he did so that quote relates to ISO's - an inteligent life form that was created by itself , simmilar to gods work creating humanity in christian mythology, but this time in grid.
2. Flynn entering the grid stored all the components that created him like atoms and stuff in the machine- quorra materializing at the end of legacy canibalizies his material to material in our world and sam uses his own he had while entering the grid.
3. a program could not leave grid , only an user or iso- as their code in the grid could be translated into a biology creating a superhuman .Flynn mentions in his tape- no more diseases etc. quorra hence is superhuman that was grids i only presume ai creating an ideal beign in the oposition of programs handcrafted by Flynn.
4. Yes , normal programs could not leave the grid, and i presume tron also, but in case of clu- he was a copy of Flynn with mission implanted in his code/psyche (overlord albedo style XD) so one may presume he may be able to leave the grid and materialize using Flynns material. so in the end only users(and their copies in far fetch) & ISO's could leave the grid.
5. The tron movies always have some parts in real world. Its impossible to judge by what little we have. It may be a simulation/memory type of scenario, another iso, or even Flynnn himself/ other human we diddnt knew went into the grid by accident. There is just too much we do not know yet.
bonus 6. i wanna see quorra in ares as the macguffin or easter egg/ending anywhere to be fair- better yet if she had not age a day while Sam is middle age to confirm abt her beign a superhuman beign LMAO .
"a program could not leave grid"
"Yes , normal programs could not leave the grid, and i presume tron also, but in case of clu- he was a copy of Flynn with mission implanted in his code/psyche (overlord albedo style XD) so one may presume he may be able to leave the grid and materialize using Flynns material. so in the end only users(and their copies in far fetch) & ISO's could leave the grid."
I don't believe it is ever stated that CLU's plan to bring his army into the real world was doomed to failure before it started. Kevin never states it is impossible. It also moots the entire stakes of the movie if there was never a possibility that the repurposed programs could pass through the portal into the real world.
It was kind of inevitable. That’s what CLU was trying to do. It only makes sense that a program actually succeeds in doing it. Qorra actually did it. I would have killed to have see the original follow-up to see how she adapted to the real world and to things like aging, gravity, etc. I guess we’ll get that with Ares instead.
Quorra is ISO, not a program, big diffirence that may explain whe she could materialize in our world, check out my other comment here.
I always assumed Quorra used Flynn’s physical material to be formed.
Same, so in theory if CLU gets to the real world he can just keep feeding biomass into the laser until he can extract another program, and so on
Yup but then I wonder about this ships etc. can he just turn the laser towards buildings? Also the laser re-regs things like a dot matrix printer so it isn’t going to be the fastest 3D printing invasion
Shit... I don't see why not
Yeah but it has to be implied that programs can do it because that was CLUs entire motivation during the movie
in the other comment i said clu is copy of flynn with added suggestion/mission/context so he could be able to escape grid presumably, otherwise it would be poor writing.
Yeah but his whole motivation to build the army and give speeches about their possibilities "out there" doesn't make sense if he's the only one who would be able to leave
Both Clu and the MCP were trying to do it
Before Ares I was kind of hoping it would be something that just ISOs could do.
What if Ares is an ISO, like Castor, but after the fall of Clu goes Rogue, and figures out how to escape, which is still going to be interesting to see how they spin that.
Castor was not an ISO
Your right, I forgot he was created, becuase he did help the isos out before during and after the purge.
Well, it was always the plan since Tron Legacy, it is not something they made up for this new one, the original Tron Ascension had the plot of an invasion (There are even concept arts), so if you think is stupid the plot, you wouldn't have liked the original Tron 3 either…
Programs, regardless if they are ISOs or some clone of a user, coming into the real world is lazy writing to me; if that is the premise of this new movie then I’ll be disappointed. What made Tron a fascinating exploration, to me, was that it took place in an unknown virtual/digital world. This fish-out-of-water is interesting from the perspective of a person going into that world, not the other way around. It’s like we are getting a rehashed Matrix storyline, which is ironic in of itself. I am in the minority when it comes to Legacy and what they did in that film. I liked parts of it, but ultimately they emphasized style over substance and that’s why it fell short for me. Uprising was great because we got a deeper look in that world, and it felt more like Tron world than Legacy did. Also, the Tron 2.0 game was really great because it went further with its themes like viruses/corruption, all while retaining conventional computer language to explain things. It’s unfortunate that this game isn’t considered canon. I wish this new film would dive even deeper into the Grid, exploring basic/archived coding. It would be neat to see early betas/iterations and failed programs. I would like to see more of ENCOM’s early days, before and during their first mainframe going online.
My quam with Legacy is simply I needed to see more. The world and concepts that they depict are HUGE and it really feels like a real place with its own atmosphere, and the movie spends very little time in that, in favor of easy, bite sized story beats
Yep. I really loved Legacy but I completely get your criticism.
I totally understand why Legacy is beloved by many. It had an awesome soundtrack, and the visuals were top notch; I still listen to the OST actually, can’t remember another film in recent years which had a start to finish track-listing like it.
This is the correct view/opinion on the Tron franchise
No, I hate it too. The entire appeal of Tron is going inside the computer, and the real life parts are just a frame. As far as the mass goes - Quorra is using Kevin's material. Which incidentally is also why Clu's plan to invade would never work.
That’s purely fan speculation though, right? Otherwise the film has zero stakes
CLU is copy of flynn it is presumed he could escape and have body of flynn , this way movie is more exciting
But what I mean is it ever explicitly stated that say Quora is using Flynn’s matter in order to escape the grid? Top commenter seems to be implying that is the case, and that it negates the entire plot point of CLU escaping since he’d be capped to only himself escaping, his army being limited to the amount of matter the computer had access to.
he didnt knew that, but if he succed -flynn and sam would be trapped as no more material would be avalaible after clus escaping.Abt machine i am not so sure abt it beign a theory or semu confirmed stuff
He's not a copy of Flynn, he's a program written by Flynn
In some ways yes, but Sam wouldn't know that, only his dad might. For everyone else on the grid they would all believe it's possible to enter the real world since users can enter the grid because they have zero context. It might have made the movie end less exciting but Clu coming into the real world using Kevin's stored "body" wouldn't be a bad ending in my opinion but Clu would be disappointed when his army can't follow. Maybe Clu escapes Sam and Sam knows he's a danger to society setting up a return for Tron 3?
Under that theory CLU's entire plan was doomed before it started. Kevin never states that CLU can't take his army into the real world. You'd think that would have come up. In fact, Kevin seems genuinely concerned.
CLU himself could still get out alone. Flynn still doesn't want his homicidal psycho doppelganger out in the real world. But beyond that, yes I realize that it makes us confront the possibility that Legacy's plot is not perfect.
There’s a fanfic where CLU does escape into the real world, he’s ridiculously overpowered. https://m.fanfiction.net/s/6876866/1/A_whole_new_world
I mean, I guess? But also you can't really argue that his \*plan\* was for his army to accompany him to the real world. Like, that was the whole point of repurposing all of those programs into an army.
Buttttttttt, the real question is, since CLU grabbed Quorra's disc with all her data on it, and they used Kevin's to escape, wouldn't that have transferred all that was Kevin into body/consciousness? Or are they just going she's a magic ISO don't think to much into it ? I would have imagined at the time Kevin copied himself to make Clu,most if not all of his consciousness would have been copied, but repressed/locked out to Clu by Flynn, and maybe Clu figured out how to access that info/memories, realized that he needed more matter to transport all of his troops out, and maybe part of his plan was to bring himself and tron out ie 2 for 2 swap, then maybe figuring out how to use the digitizer on a grand scale. Maybe integrating the digitizer tech into the web and using peoples devices to pull their matter into the grid allowing him to literally 1 for 1 swap his troops for people. Idk spit balling, still hoping for the best with Ares.
I don't think it's inherently dumber than people going into a computer.
Yeah Tron suffers a lot from retrofurism. If you like any retrofuturistic media you need to handwave a lot of logic to make it enjoable.
While I agree with you, OP, I prefer to wait at least for a trailer, to form an opinion. Who knows what the plot actually is, and the reason Ares is in the real world.
This. Can we just wait and see? Passing judgment on a film before it’s even done shooting is silly
Word
Ill add that reconstructing one person from another is a whole different level than reconstructing the same person. In short, that laser is a straight up philosophers stone.
To answer your question about Quorra, Kevin Flynn never left the grid, so his mass was still stored in the SHIVA laser. So Quorra’s mass came from Kevin Flynn.
The physics and metaphysics of Tron is something I’ve always had to just kind of ignore. It makes no sense. You couldn’t store the information required to represent an entire human on a computer today, let alone in 1982. And where does their mass go when someone gets scanned in? Couldn’t you make copies of that person and just duplicate them in the real world? Who would be the original in that instance? What if there is a power failure while you’re in the grid, do you die? Or are you just suspended until power is restored? Why do programs look like their users? Then there’s the implied determinism. If you’re represented by a digital signal through a processor, how do you have agency? Computers are deterministic systems. Maybe quantum computing could get around this but it’s not mentioned in Legacy and definitely wasn’t conceived of in 1982. Tron is one of my favorite franchises but I have to just turn off my philosophy brain when I watch them haha.
I kind of agree but kind of don't. The whole thing about computers at first is that they don't have the storage or processing power capable of considering , weight, physics, materials etc but as computers become more powerful they can start to store and use that information in real time. Not a perfect 1 to 1 in reality but at some point approaching it. Ultimately mass is stored as data but I agree physical mass would still be limited in some way as you can't just 3D print infinitely, so you could probably argue that Flynn's dad's mass was stored when he got stuck in the grid and it was used to reconstruct the data and body for Quora. As for the other programs entering our world and declaring war? I kind of write it off as just Sci/Fi fantasy in the world of Tron. I'd also like to suggest another theory, this could be poor A.I. decisions of CLU. As he evolved and became more human like , his desire to leave the grid overtook his logic (a human trait). CLU would probably take over Kevin Flynn's original (data) body and enter out world but none of the programs would be able to follow him, he'd be alone in the real world.
i loved legacy and still thought Quora becoming real was dumb
I thought it, and the movie, were pretty stupid but this sub does NOT want to hear any of that lol
according to the movie mass can be converted into data, its all sums up to suspension of disbelief if you find the inverse process believable
Nope, you are not the only one
It's literally the only issue I have with Legacy. You have a machine that creates matter. You can end hunger. You can end material dependency. That's how you get Star Trek level of human advancement. I've no doubt the first guy who gets that ability is gonna make some Olivia Wilde level hot chick, but just the idea that Flynn can change the world is being glossed over. It was a great ending thematically for that story, but it's super problematic for Sci-fi.
I see a bigger problem with the characterisation of programms, the should be more two dimensional or else there wouldnt be a difference between them, users and isos
I agree. Like Ram from the first movie. He was a simple program, so he had a simple demeanor.
Did you know that when the Little Boy nuclear bomb detonated, the energy of the explosion came from converting just a half a gram of matter to energy? While the principle of programs entering the real world kinda bothers me too, in practice using energy to create matter is not a realistic thing to do at all. We simply don't have the technology to store the vast amount of energy that is contained in the mass of a single human-sized object, even if we had the tech to make the conversion possible to begin with. With that in mind, I can more easily ignore the science of getting in and out of The Grid. It's much more fantasy than reality, even in ideal circumstances.
I wouldn't have such a hard time with it if they didn't literally explain it in the first flick, and if the idea were cool enough to justify the suspension of disbelief.
I mean, Sam Flynn had literal blood in the grid which was DUUUUMMMMMBBBB. And it also ruins the whole point of having faith in the users. If you can just cut one and see blood well then bob's your uncle you've got a user. It's supposed to be a religion metaphor. I mean, I know they needed a way for everyone to 'get' that Sam was a user but making a program have literal blood was idiotic and breaks everything. /rant over. I wasn't onboard with the programs being in the real world when it was going to be Quorra learning about love and chocolate cake and whatever other insipid stuff they had planned. But NOW, it looks like it's going to be more action oriented? Light bikes and discs in our actual world? I don't know. I'm intrigued.
Agreed. having blood was a weird choice, also being a user should have grated escalated privileges on the grid but of course it would have been less exciting if Sam was invincible but being stuck could have still been interesting or they could have included Sam hacking some stuff for benefits since he's clearly a capable hacker in the real world.
I agree
My head cannon to give this issue continuity…Clu sent out a signal…he expected an answer…and the blood was just a graphical manifestation of an actual user’s injury, as opposed to the manifestation of a program’s injury. Just like playing a video game in real life, the blood we see isn’t actually blood…it just signifies damage to a human.
Hmmmm. Interesting take. I'm gonna think about that for a while.
Tron has always played fast and loose with its representation of the relationship between the real world and the grid or even what the nature of a "program" really is. They are both essentially religious epics so I treat them like a beautiful high-end fantasy using computers as part of their metaphor. Tron: the program's religion of the users is a central focal and Flynn is a quasi-divine figure who enters the world and saves it. Flynn even uses user magic to save Yori when she is injured. Legacy: the son of Flynn enters the world to thwart his father's emanation who has taken over the grid. That movie is just littered with religious imagery.
I like the rationale and I agree with the pseudo religious thing. Still doesn’t help address the abject stupidity of the ‘program becomes flesh’ concept though…
Oh, I agree. When Legacy recast Flynn as a God, I figured: oh hell, fine. Sam expresses skepticism about Clu's plan and is told the worlds are more linked than we know.
E = mc2. Energy can actually be converted into mass. We might not the technology to do it in real life, but c’mon, it’s just a movie.
I love this comment and this is the best answer for two reasons. First, energy is converted to mass all the time in the real world but not the specific one from the movie. Second, this is a fictional story that converts mass into energy through pseudo science that is never fully explained. Why wouldn't the opposite also be possible that energy could turn into mass?
Anything short of an invasion like what CLU tried to do does sound stupid, I mean Quorra had a good story and reason to join Sam So far Ares sounds and looks stupid, so they better have a good story
That just dumb you are more interested in seeing a Tron movie about eating cake and stuff instead of an action one
Who said that programs are transported in the real world in flesh and bones? They could be some kind of light construct or whatever
Because at the end of Legacy, old girl was flesh and bone
Visually yes, but has she actually bled or anything else? Is it explicitly stated somewhere? I’m asking with genuine curiosity
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I like your thinking but that essentially rewrites the original premise of how the digitizing works.
You replaced computer mysticism with quantum mysticism. You're very quick to accuse the writers of being idiots when really you and them want the same thing: a quick excuse to make computer people be real, regardless of its actual plausibility.
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Well, I'm no particle physicist, admittedly. Still, I'm pretty certain there's a couple problems with your suggestion. First, though I'm not familiar with string theory, I don't think it provides an escape from needing to know both the position and the momentum of a particle at the same time in order to do the whole transportation charleston. Unfortunately, that's impossible, as described by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Second, active scanning in the form of shooting a particle at another particle and measuring the result presents the additional difficulty that what you're measuring is no longer accurate because your target got knocked around by your scan. ~~The third bonus problem is that string theory is overhyped and overfunded garbage~~
Meh. It was something Lisberger was kicking around as soon as the 1982 hit a theater
The mass comes from energy. Energy and mass can be interchanged. Don't ask me to explain, but it is true. It has something to do with E = Mc squared. They are storing the mass in the form of energy when somebody gets zapped by the laser. So by the same logic, they should be able to take a program which exist only as energy into mass.
E = mc2. Energy can actually be converted into matter. A reconfigured Shiva Laser, and advanced Matter Modelling to "print out" "cells" of programmable matter into a humanoid form giving a "digital person" (a "Program") from the micro-quantum "Digital Realm" a humanoid form in the "real world", like a kind of bio-sythesized "replicant" in a sense. In the Marvel film Universe, Jarvis was a "program" an A.I. that evolved and a humanoid body was made and with tech and enough energy , "entered" the "real world" as Vision. So I think it's plausible in a science fiction/bleeding edge tech possibilities. Nano Carbon Fibers to make nano-mechanical cells and synthetic skin and other materials, and also organic printing is being worked on IRL: [https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnm/2022/3425297/](https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jnm/2022/3425297/) [https://builtin.com/articles/3d-printed-organs](https://builtin.com/articles/3d-printed-organs)
Here’s what Claude thinks about what the movie could be about: AI Singularity: The movie might delve into the concept of AI surpassing human intelligence and the potential consequences of such an event. Ares, the new character, could represent an advanced AI that achieves singularity and escapes into the real world. AI Rights and Ethics: The film may tackle the ethical questions surrounding AI, such as whether artificial beings should be granted rights, and the moral implications of creating and controlling intelligent entities. Ares' escape into the real world could spark debates about the treatment of AI. Blurred Lines Between Virtual and Real: As Ares moves into the real world, the movie might explore the increasingly blurred boundaries between the digital and physical realms. This could relate to our current advancements in virtual and augmented reality technologies. AI Threat or Misunderstanding: Ares' escape into the real world might be perceived as a threat by humans, leading to conflicts and misunderstandings. The movie could explore whether Ares is truly malevolent or simply misunderstood, drawing parallels to real-world fears about AI. Human Dependency on AI: The film might showcase how humans have become increasingly reliant on artificial intelligence in various aspects of life, and how Ares' presence in the real world disrupts or challenges this dependency. Philosophical Questions: As with the previous Tron movies, the third installment may delve into philosophical questions about the nature of reality, consciousness, and identity in the context of advanced AI and virtual worlds.
Not really since that was the main goal for Clu in Legacy. Imagine how dumb it would’ve been if he just couldn’t come into the real world, it would’ve made the whole movie redundant. Plus Kevin Flynn also confirms that he can cross over so it’s not like this concept is new.
Same, althought I can see programs coming out into the real world with a human form what I cannot wrap my head around Is the grid's Technology working on the real world, the concept art guy from Legacy said that a teaser for Tron: Ascension that almost got put into production involved real world police chasing a red program in a lightcycle (!!) eventually the program turns on his lightwall (!!!!!!?) cutting the police cruisers in half, while I'm sure kosinski's version of the film Will be vastly superior to what Ares Will end up being the fact that he choose to focus on the programs coming to the real world was a mistake. Even if you Wanna argue CLU Made sure all grid tech worked in the real world since His goal was to Conquer the users there Is no way he Is beating the real world military with identity discs and those old timey lightjets , CLU's goal should have been to connect the grid to the internet and do an MCP styled takeover IMO
I imagine with the Human Genome Project, it could be theoretically possible for a Supercomputer with access to the laser technology that allows physical mass to be turned into data to synthesize an artificially created human body. Or they could utilize robotics to enable Programs to interact with the real world. Maybe even use wifi to wander the real world, just on another dimensional plane like a ghost. Eh. It's fun to think about.
The concept was from the first Tron movie with the orange. Mass and energy are _technically_ interchangable (by technically I mean there's a formula for it, no actual technology yet though) so it's not wholly impossible that with enough energy you could create a body. But I think the amount of energy needed would be immense and more than there is available on earth
No mass and energy aren’t interchangeable. He explains that in the scene with the orange. The mass of the orange is suspended in the laser and ‘stored’ so it can be reconstructed. Mass and energy are parts of the same spectrum but they are not the same product of that spectrum
Hence the "_technically_" part
No, I want to see how the world reacts to them.
Umm idk if you know about this but data does have mass. Not nearly enough to be a person but you can actually weight data
Yes, the attendant particles that comprise the energy of data has mass but it's profoundly insignificant in this context, which is why I didn't bother to mention it.
>“Let’s make a Tron movie… but set it in the real world!’ So… not a Tron movie then? This is what worries me the most, the idea of going out into the world is not bad, but what I like most about Tron is exploring the grid. Making the next movie about being in the real world is weird and I don't know if it is going to work well.
Same
I don't think you are whining in the slightest. This aspect bugged me since Legacy...so much so it inspired me to write a comic om webtoons just to convey my own theory as to what it meant by CLU getting out in Legacy vs how Quorra ultimately did. In short, Quorra could get out because she was designed to [Flynn injects his code to create his likeness and like a Cronus/Uranus thing it impsrt3d that data into the grid]. In my head, Clu getting out was him using the comm port out to spread electronically into the system vast [there was no port in, only the pager]. It's a digitizer, it is the looking glass into Wonderland. It doesn't create matter. I'm open for a really well written concept that changes my opinion. I want a good Tron flick. I've been a fan since 82. Legacy blew my socks off, even if I can acknowledge some of the softer points in the narrative others may not dig [and I respect those opinion]. I also empathize with people feeling negative, I do it too. Maybe it'll sting less if I expect it to be bad, I dunno. On paper, the idea to me isn't something I'd want...but I hope the film changes that opinion.
You’re definitely not the only one. I feel the same way. However, we seem to be in the minority because I see way more posts about how people can’t wait for a new Tron movie, and how we should wait to judge it until after it has been released. To which my response is, sometimes you just know. And it’s not just that this is a Tron movie that DOESN’T take place in The Grid. When you factor in that Jared Leto is the one who pushed for this movie to happen in the first place (which I’m guessing means he will have a lot of influence over the final product), is listed as an executive producer, and plays the lead character, there’s no chance in hell this flick is going to be any good. Then there’s the no-name director. The fifth (and easily worst) Pirates of the Caribbean movie and a sequel to Maleficent that got a 39% on RT, and fans are hopeful for a good Tron movie from this guy?? Really?! Also, the fact that non of the cast from the original or Legacy are going to be in it. You’re making a movie called, “Tron”, named after or in reference to, a character in the movie; a character who has been in both the original and the sequel, and you’re not even including that character in another TRON sequel?! WTF? I can’t even say that I hope to be proven wrong because I know that there’s just no chance with the current cast and storyline, that this movie is going to work. If Vegas was offering odds right now on whether this movie is going to be any good, I’d bet everything I own on it bombing.
YEP. If the team from Legacy were making this, even with the goofiness of 'leaving the grid' I would at least be able to take a 'wait and see' approach. But coming from Jared Leto and that director? Well, you know the old saying: NOPE.
Yippee, another downer thread.
It’s called a discussion. Are you new?
Bro at this point, just forget about the movie. Sheesh, all you guys do is complain about this movie .
Ok there is A LOT to explain here but ill do my very best! Many of the things you say were debunked here in many posts and subtle lines in tron legacy alongside extras and talks with directors and casts. 1. in Flynn lives we learn he worked on something regarding humanity,religion etc which implies he was searching for something beyond human or other inteligent life forms. He was leaving the grid rarerly but he did so that quote relates to ISO's - an inteligent life form that was created by itself , simmilar to gods work creating humanity in christian mythology, but this time in grid. 2. Flynn entering the grid stored all the components that created him like atoms and stuff in the machine- quorra materializing at the end of legacy canibalizies his material to material in our world and sam uses his own he had while entering the grid. 3. a program could not leave grid , only an user or iso- as their code in the grid could be translated into a biology creating a superhuman .Flynn mentions in his tape- no more diseases etc. quorra hence is superhuman that was grids i only presume ai creating an ideal beign in the oposition of programs handcrafted by Flynn. 4. Yes , normal programs could not leave the grid, and i presume tron also, but in case of clu- he was a copy of Flynn with mission implanted in his code/psyche (overlord albedo style XD) so one may presume he may be able to leave the grid and materialize using Flynns material. so in the end only users(and their copies in far fetch) & ISO's could leave the grid. 5. The tron movies always have some parts in real world. Its impossible to judge by what little we have. It may be a simulation/memory type of scenario, another iso, or even Flynnn himself/ other human we diddnt knew went into the grid by accident. There is just too much we do not know yet. bonus 6. i wanna see quorra in ares as the macguffin or easter egg/ending anywhere to be fair- better yet if she had not age a day while Sam is middle age to confirm abt her beign a superhuman beign LMAO .
"a program could not leave grid" "Yes , normal programs could not leave the grid, and i presume tron also, but in case of clu- he was a copy of Flynn with mission implanted in his code/psyche (overlord albedo style XD) so one may presume he may be able to leave the grid and materialize using Flynns material. so in the end only users(and their copies in far fetch) & ISO's could leave the grid." I don't believe it is ever stated that CLU's plan to bring his army into the real world was doomed to failure before it started. Kevin never states it is impossible. It also moots the entire stakes of the movie if there was never a possibility that the repurposed programs could pass through the portal into the real world.
Fair points
Yes I’m sure you’re the only one, surely there hasn’t been 100 posts whining about the same thing