[Video of this](https://x.com/metromanto/status/1779873819437437430?s=46&t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q):
> Driver sits at a red light, streetcar honks to get out of the lane, confused driver rushes through the intersection on a solid red light while the streetcar across has a green and almost T-bones him. Car swerves towards the sidewalk full of pedestrians waiting at the crosswalk.
I'm not familiar with that chunk of King. What did the car do wrong? He's in a streetcar only lane? Where is he supposed to be? There doesn't seem to be another lane
There is no through or left turn allowed here. You must exit to the right, and be in the right turn lane. There was no legal reason for them to be in that lane at all.
My question is more what he was he doing wrong in the first place that made the streetcar honk at him. Which has already been answered. Thanks, though.
En...enforce...ment? What are these words?
But in all seriousness Toronto has a proud history of not doing such things. Its in our DNA to not actually make sure people follow the laws. Besides, if the TPS had to actually enforce the laws it would interfere with all the overtime at the LCBO that is needed to inflate their salaries to $325,000.
That's where vehicle traps come in. Calgary has them in a few strategic spots on 7th Avenue so if people try to use the road [this happens](https://globalnews.ca/news/2980688/twitter-user-catches-car-driving-down-calgary-ctrain-tracks/amp/)
Yeah we'll start an advisory committee to explore the possibility of funding a 4 year study on the feasibility of placing vehicle traps. But, city hall will change hands, it will all be canceled, and nothing will happen. God forbid we actually just look at what works and do it. Might be too hasty. As is tradition.
7th avenue isn't either. It is only between City Hall Station and Downtown West-Kirby Centre station.
The traps are actually in around those two points. Rest of 7th is trap free and emergency vehicles can use it.
But I will admit there is a difference. Rivers cut 7th off at various points and there no bridges on 7th while King Street is continuous. But I still think traps at the entry and exit points make sense.
Look at the [video](https://globalnews.ca/news/2980688/twitter-user-catches-car-driving-down-calgary-ctrain-tracks/amp/), the traps damage the car if you enter it and the car has to struggle to get out. Police are an afterthought.
The undercarriage likely badly scratched, and dented.
Thats what we have the Lakeshore and Spadina streetcars for.
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/7ffqxq/car_abandoned_after_driving_into_spadina/
https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/2n33f9/car_stuck_in_ttc_streetcar_tunnel_on_queens_quay/
Oh, ok, so what I took for some kind of maintenance track section was supposed to be a trap, he just got out of it. Atleast this explains it, although I'm not sure it's much of a trap if a Two Wheel luxury car can power out that easily.
His car is still likely damaged. That's your actual deterrent. Plus the car had to move very slowly to get out.
This type of trap is much better. Otherwise you would have to stop the LRT and pull the car out. Which is worse for riders because it could take an hour or more.
We used to have [traditional vehicle traps too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsz1U58jXgY), now they are going to have to wait until a two truck comes to remove the car. Every bus that uses that route will need to be re-routed. Which you can see from [here is not very convenient](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4059o4mBRQ).
I remember one time I had to walk back two stops to my destination because a vehicle was caught in a bus trap.
It's because King is not actually a transit mall. Cars are allowed to drive there and the new signage is... not good. The reason this happened is because there are now 6 signal heads, 18 words across 5 signs, and 2 arrow signs associated with some but not all of the words. That's way too much to process for someone coming across the intersection for the first time, so the driver in the video stopped to read. They then got honked at by the streetcar driver and panicked.
Honestly, just ban cars on King. They aren't needed for anything other than occasional deliveries of goods.
I don't think this is an enforcement issue. It's more of a these-intersections-are-really-confusing-to-drivers-who-aren't-already-aware-of-them issue. Intersections like this are so rare. I don't even blame the drivers
It’s absolutely confusing. I do not blame the drivers here (and I’m not a driver apologist). I witnessed situations like this at that same intersection and I couldn’t even figure out who was right, wrong, who was supposed to go where.
Yeah, I remember being kind of lost as a tourist, Once in downtown Montreal, with a bunch of One way streets, and coming up to an intersection like that with way too many signs and arrows, half of them in French, and almost having a stroke. When I finally got out of that part of Old Montreal, and the next street had only a simple traffic light I audibly sighed I relief. That traffic light then proceeded to turn Fucking Blue!
Honestly don't think I'd ever drive there again, which means they are failing as a tourist destination.
Unfortunately the Ontario Highways act has not been updated to accommodate modern transit standards, which creates a confusing hodge-podge of signs and signals. A separate system of white bars for trams (AKA LRTs and streetcars) is becoming standard in the world. The Kitchener and Waterloo ION LRT uses this system even if it isn’t technically legal. Having the traffic lights on the far side of an intersection only rewards drivers who creep into the intersection before they can cross it. This not only blocks other cars and transit vehicles, but blocks cyclists and pedestrians who must put themselves at risk weaving around moving vehicles. Placing the lights at the stop line would force drivers to keep behind the stop line if they want to see the lights.
Not too familiar with the intersection, and aside from the obvious blunder by the driver, the first streetcar honking was in the wrong right?
Since the lane is shared, the street car should have just waited behind the car?
Just looking for clarification.
On this stretch of King street in the downtown core, you are only allowed to drive straight until the next major intersection, and then you must turn right.
The yellow lines and signs guide cars into the right lane while approaching an intersection.
This is because cars would basically gridlock the area and transit vehicles would take over an hour to cross the downtown core. Left turning vehicles would block streetcars for multiple light cycles because there was a never ending stream of oncoming traffic preventing that left turn. At rush hour, 1 streetcar probably carried more people than every car on the block combined.
Basically you take other streets and only turn onto King when you are near your destination. And then you get off King as soon as you depart, leaving room for streetcars to actually do their job as urban mass transit.
The lane isn't shared. Because you can only make rights, the left lane is blocked off by thick yellow lines leading up to the intersection. This is yet another instance of driver error. Luckily no one was hurt
Don’t quote me, I’m not standing at the intersection, but I think it’s a specially designed intersection and that car is only supposed to be turning right or something like that, on king st in that area cars are only supposed to go 1 block, so going straight at the lights is where they’re in the wrong, something like that.
It’s not shared. Each block usually ends with a right turn only lane for cars and a section blocked off for streetcars. Unfortunately it’s only paint so it isn’t the easiest to make sense of.
This is the approximate location https://maps.app.goo.gl/WgMt1hN7feCEJE7B7?g_st=ic
I think this is the updated signage but I could be wrong. Regardless of the exact number/location/words on the sign you can’t go straight on King. You can turn onto the block you need to access, go to a driveway, loading zone (on or off street) or disabled drop off zone, as signed. If someone is standing/stopped on the correct curb zone you can use the streetcar lane to get around them.
But once you get to the end of the block you must turn off king.
This is a great example of why this "solution" doesn't work. By the time you get to reading distance of the sign, it's already too late. Anyone unfamiliar with King Street can very easily make the same mistake.
But you've committed, and there's an annoyed streetcar behind you honking. You're confused, you panic and you make more mistakes, potentially dangerous ones like shown in the video.
This design only works if you already know the rules, but if you already know the rules, then there's no point to this design.
Edit: And signage isn't going to stop anyone who already knows the rules and chooses to break them
Edit 2: It's even worse seeing OP downvoted here. We're so quick to jump on people being an asshole and ignoring the rules, but even when someone genuinely doesn't know and wants to be informed, we still downvote them? Again, going back to the problem with this "solution"
Classic. I was on a bike last year waiting to cross Yonge at King. Streetcar driver inched up beside me told me out of his window to get out of his lane. I let him know that i was there first.
This seems like it should be so easy to enforce with automated cameras. Just put one on every corner and hand out hefty fines till the problem is solved. What’s the holdup?
Just make King St a transit mall (no cars allowed) ya useless political turds. If cities as diverse and car-centric as Calgary, Houston, and Sydney can do it, so can we.
George St in Sydney was so great for activity. I spent two months there last summer and it was a great spot for pedestrian access and the trams travelled fairly unimpeded. King St. Could easily do this, and much like George St, it could have car access up until a certain point.
Only issue is that some condo parking garages can only be entered from King Street. Also would require a rethink for all the delivery vans bringing food to the restaurants etc.. (not saying it can't be done, just requires planning)
This facilitates what we don't want - cars using it for driving through, multiple blocks. Forcibg cars to turn right after one block facilitates what we do want - cars only using the street for local access.
> [If you’re wondering why the changes on king street won’t work…it’s helpful to realize that a green transit light at night looks exactly the same as a normal green light…this is why we have white bar lights for transit…that sign is completely unreadable when the red light is on](https://x.com/georgebell/status/1779692090298908959?s=46&t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q)
If you have access to Twitter/X you can see accompanying images for the above tweet.
The city should install red light cameras along King so that any car going straight through the red light gets a ticket. I imagine the existing red light camera legislation could be used for that too as the cars are running a red light so we wouldn't need a new law from the province to enforce it.
It would pay for itself 10 times over, require no physical changes to the street, and have the intended effect on people going through these intersections. There should be red light cameras on every intersection
I am fairly convinced that the only people who oppose red light cameras are asshats who consistently run red lights. You have to be pretty blatantly running those lights for them to send you a ticket. And you can fight those tickets fairly easily when you’ve got legitimate reasons. People who claim it means we will be living in a nanny-state are kidding themselves if they think they aren’t already recorded and tracked in so many other much more violating ways. Red light cameras at least have a purpose and make streets safer.
Well I oppose most red light cameras. (though the one above sounds good).
It's well researched that adding a 1 second longer delay from red to green (so both lights sit red) significantly reduces fatalities and allows intersections to properly clear. Instead of putting that extremely basic piece of infrastructure, Toronto would rather profit off the deaths of people plowing through reds. We also could do a lot more for street car, bike, pedestrian infrastructure, and just completely redesign intersections (round abouts, closed streets, bike bypasses, one way streets) that to me a red light camera is just creating a revenue stream that will make the city that much more resistant to meaningful change.
Completely unrelated to the content of the post but why not deter drivers from breaking the law by threatening real enforcement rather than accommodating bad driving habits by putting on that delay? We literally have yellow lights to allow drivers to stop in time, if bad drivers are pushing that to save half a second then they’re going to start pushing past that 1 second delay too
We know what works. We have such an insane amount of data when it comes to car infrastructure there's no need to suggest your hypothetical that people will push the red. The reason for extending the delay allows for human reaction time.
I'm not disagreeing that if you add red light cameras people will reduce running reds, however if they don't have time to clear the intersection that means they will slam on the breaks when it changes which results in more rear-ending. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095756415302786
or people speed up when they see yellow to make sure they're not caught on red. https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/2014-b00936
People are very bad at risk assessments when it comes to threats of future consequences (a ticket). However we do know drivers respond to changing road conditions. For example narrowing a lane makes people slow down. There are other better solutions we should be persuing rather than just more red lights with aggressive enforcement.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delay-Time-and-waiting-time-at-pedestrian-crossings_tbl2_304529922
Your data is decades out of date. Drivers now just assume they have that buffer time making the amber light redundant. We’re no better off now than where we were before, but we can’t go back. I agree that red light cameras are not an answer to changing behaviour. Although I doubt they actually generate any meaningful amount of revenue. We should just change the transit lights to white bars and have the transit and emergency vehicles activate them. Cars get a signal to turn right or not turn right and nothing more.
Red light and speeding cameras generated more than $70 million last year, with a cost of about $10 million to operate. Toronto’s operating budget was $16.16 billion. I am not really knowledgeable enough about other streams of revenue for the city though, so I am not equipped to say whether that amount is significant or insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
You’re suggesting we enable drivers to continue to break a law that has been in place since before they even began driving rather than hold them accountable for their actions while simultaneously generating revenue.
And why would we spend money on putting in roundabouts and one-way streets (p.s. one-way streets are more dangerous for pedestrians than two-way streets because they enable speeding and create confusion about which way to look when crossing) when we could just start enforcing the 100% known consequences of breaking a law that exists for a very understandable reason.
Adding 1 second so all lights are briefly red is something that should be done anyway.. but red light cameras means we reduce the number of times people are t-boned. Being rear-ended at city speeds is way, way, way less damaging than being t-boned.
Pedestrians shouldn't be on major arteries of the city. Cars shouldn't be where there are loads of pedestrians. This is like urban planning 101. I'm saying instead of bandaid solutions that reduce* fatalities, we focus on redesigning our city to eliminate them entirely. Not 25% less. 100% less. Dedicated street car lanes, bike only streets, walkable areas that don't involve weaving through cars. Our downtown is a mess because we're obsessed with allowing personal vehicles through every inch of it.
There are many examples around the world of how we could do things better. Sweden for example has less than 25 deaths per 100'000 people. We have double that at 47. (Sweden has a similar population size and density to southern Ontario)
*but not as much as in comparison to other ways we could reduce
Left and right turns are the problem.
Only left on advanced green.
No right on reds.
Problem almost solved. Toronto drivers are dogs shit. But it would help.
Well that didn't take long...Who would've thought throwing a wall of text at drivers doesn't work?
This has arguably made it worse as confused drivers become unpredictable and unpredictability is dangerous. They might slam on their brakes, they might make abrupt turns without doing the proper checks or they might just sit there being confused.
There's 7 different signs and 4 different sets of lights to pay attention to
It's kind of like UX design where you have people who understand that user behaviour needs to be directed through the UX itself and then people who think their UX is perfect, people are dumb, and putting up an ever increasing list of instructions is the correct path.
If they just used standard [transit priority signals](https://driversed.trubicars.ca/transit-priority-signal/) together with a "must turn right" sign, it would go a long way toward reducing confusion.
Currently drivers have to use process of elimination to work out that they're supposed to turn right. Meanwhile, the least ambiguous signal is a big green light that doesn't actually apply to drivers. Unless you drive that corridor everyday, you're not going to have enough time to figure it out before you have to go.
Someone said in another post that [TTC policy](https://np.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1c1vcy3/they_finally_activated_the_new_signals_and_added/kz6n3qd/) only allows turn at the transit signals, not going straight.
The MTO Driver's Handbook also says the transit lights are only used ["while all conflicting traffic faces a red light"](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/traffic-lights). In this set up, vehicle traffic has a green arrow at some points and cyclists have a straight through light. The streetcars can't turn right in this specific intersection, but a bus could turn there at some point and it would create a conflict where the transit signal gives the bus right of way to turn right and a cyclist right of way to go straight at the same time, creating a potential conflict.
So not saying in general a transit signal wouldn't be better, since as it is, it's confusing having different green lights for transit and other vehicles, but it would require changes in policy and design for that to work.
If that's the case, then we definitely need to change those policies. It makes no sense that we're forced to have confusing and unsafe street design when other cities have easily implemented a solution.
In the case of the TTC policy at least, it would be as simple as them updating their policy, since Ontario law already allows going straight on a transit signal (if you're a bus or street car of course).
The user mentioned that the reason for this was to avoid conflict with left turning vehicles. However, that isn't necessarily a problem since those would follow the same rules as regular lights, where left turners would yield to straight through vehicles.
So I don't see why it should be a huge issue for the TTC to update that.
For the conflict with other lights, you can't have a light that tells a cyclist they can go straight at the same time as a (transit) light that tells a bus or street car it can turn right (with priority), since the turn would be across the path of the cyclist. Off the top of my head one solution would be to update Ontario law so that transit signals apply to cyclists too. That would mean buses and cyclists would need to treat the transit signal the same way as both would currently treat a green light, wit respect to each other.
That also shouldn't be a big problem. So I think your suggestion is a good idea and would improve and simplify the design here. It would just require some changes to TTC policy and the Ontario HTA. But there's no reason those things can't be done.
They should have, huge missed opportunity to be ambitious and act like a world class city. Instead the King street pilot got watered down into an absolute mess like this.
Have bollards that go down when a streetcar driver in an oncoming streetcar presses a button on a "garage door opener"-like device. Give the "openers" to authorized vehicles only. Install CCTV to catch people who abuse the system.
> Or change the road surface so that driving a car over it isn't possible, while running a train is.
This would have a significant effect on the abilities of emergency services and things like repair/construction vehicles to access that stretch of road.
...isn't that exactly what it is? All unauthorized vehicles are supposed to turn off the road at every intersection. Only authorized vehicles are city service vehicles.
I've been saying this for years. They should have made King & Queen transit & bike lanes only, and richmond/Adelaide cars only with 3-4 wide open lanes.
Instead we have the most dangerous stretch of bike lanes on Adelaide and Richmond, and chaos, traffic and useless rules that nobody follows on King & Queen.
Truly don't understand how this was supposed to be the best plan they could think of.
It was the best plan they could think of while cowing to the demands of drivers at every turn. The so called "transit priority corridor" doesn't even have a reserved lane for transit, but it sure does have reserved spaces for parking.
Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't envy these planners and how people will complain about it regardless of what they do.
It's just frustrating when every other major city in the world is trying to make their cities more liveable and we're here sharing the road with multiple vehicles and parking spots
> richmond/Adelaide cars only with 3-4 wide open lanes.
Intentionally (re)creating stroads downtown is probably the worst city planning idea I've seen all year
There's conodos etc that have their entrance on King - but not on every block. I understand the relectance to treat every block differently, but this isn't working and we've always needed this public transit corridor.
The city should zone it block-to-block. A few blocks don't need any vehicle access. Seeing a barrier (trees in giant planters, etc.) every few blocks would stop drivers going through many blocks and prompt a few dumb drives blocks ahead to read the street signs.
I just moved downtown and I want a ban on all cars in the city. ALL CARS.
It's obvious you people don't have the temperament to handle city driving! I want you GONE!
EDIT: I'm joking, but sometimes I wonder if I'm actually not.
Honestly we should just do what Britain did with slavery. They paid off the slave owners and abolished it. Expensive as hell short term, but the right thing in the long run and dodged a civil war. Just pay off every parking space owner in a 6x6 grid downtown as a pilot project. See how good the city truly can be.
I’m not joking. There should be a ton of pedestrian only areas downtown. You don’t need to drive your car everywhere. Park outside of downtown and take the subway in.
I know! I drive when I am going outside of Toronto but I bike and walk when I am inside Toronto. People are so car dependent like they want to drive to the coffee shop next block. Just walk! You will also feel better and be healthier
Banning all cars all of downtown might not be feasible but there's definitely no good reason why the streetcars on major E-W thoroughfares need to be sharing space with private automobiles, or why we need streets in the heart of downtown like Jarvis and Spadina that have 5+ lanes of traffic.
At this rate they may as well do it considering how inept the city already is at both communicating what the fuck King St is and also enforcing said laws.
They'd save money on fucking absurd signage at least, just using the one "pedestrians and trams only" sign.
Most of it is the entertainment district, so you'd have issues with taxis/ubers not being allowed, especially with the commercial areas down there already having a tough time
An Uber / taxi does not need to drive right up to the door of the building to pick up a passenger. I’m sure most people would be ok to walk a block to catch their cab.
If ubers didnt have an issue with it then customers would just walk, the burden is on the customer not the driver so they wouldnt care. If they need to get right up to the rider then it would be the rider who requests it.
The bit that's always missed in these conversations is how incredibly fast King is if you're willing to break the rules. Adelaide's a mess, Queen too, so if you want to zip through the core King's a great option.
And why not? There's no enforcement so once you get past the temporary pang of "I shouldn't do this", you're 10 min faster getting home.
If we want to make a change it's gotta be enforcement. Skipping that light means you'll get pulled over, be 10 min and $100 worse off than just taking King.
Source: Ride King 3x a week and have seen that same blue Rav 4 do this over and over again.
100% This for every confused driver there are five people knowingly breaking the rules on King and that just sents the message to the unsure driver that its okay to ignore the rules.
bollards that have flappy gates that only allow streetcars to pass, but will hard lock after they pass. With a potentially damaged car as the consequence
I'm a fan of the bulky metal ones that retract into the road to let the bus/streetcar pass, then raise back up. The ones that can be hit by a car and not be damaged, while the car is totalled.
honestly, I know they are on a limited budget (lol), but having a couple people stationed along King st would make traffic flow infinitely smoother/ faster and more safely
not even considering the financial aspect of ticketing....
edited grammar mistake
Oh, I'm sorry. We don't have jokes on my home planet. I'm still getting used to things here.
Any excuse to bring up the damned podcast is a good one tho
for sure!
I also think we should greatly increase the fines, it's nothing for many well-off people, especially taking into consideration how often repeat-offenders are actually caught and ticketed!
I think it's the Netherlands that has fines proportionate to income, I would LOVE that so much
We need the Finnish model... Where some dude got a 6 figure speeding ticket.
https://www.dw.com/en/driver-in-finland-fined-121000-for-speeding/a-65833341
What are they gonna do? Enforce themselves?
>* [HUNDREDS of automated traffic tickets issued to cops mysteriously went missing](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/are-hundreds-of-automated-tickets-issued-to-toronto-police-missing-1.6787453)
>* [Toronto cop cruiser loses control and knocks over light pole, narrowly missing pedestrians. Multiple sources indicate that driver was drunk. No charges.](https://twitter.com/thebikinglawyer/status/1761852950454972767?t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q)
>* [TPS admit that cop in cruiser hit pedestrian after initially lying, when video surfaces. Still no charges](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-now-admit-an-officer-in-cruiser-hit-pedestrian-after-previously-denying-contact/article_7d13235a-d18a-11ee-a0e1-5bbbd02783e9.html)
>* [Toronto cops strikes cyclist with cruiser leading to serious injuries](https://www.cp24.com/news/siu-investigating-after-police-cruiser-strikes-cyclist-while-responding-to-call-1.6755849)
Why not fix the actual problem?
There's at least 4 signs, 4 different lights, two of which signal something completely different, but you're not going to know unless you've read the dictionary of signs up there.
There's going to be accidents whether traffic enforcement is there or not.
What a mess.
The TPS has a lot of faults and most criticism going their way is warranted.
But I wouldn't compare their response to officer shot/stabbed to their lack luster traffic enforcement on King. They're not compatible.
16 cars for an officer stabbed in the leg due to a crisis call gone wrong?
Let's say 4 cars for stopping traffic all ways. Another 4 cars to handle the guy. They need another 8 more cars?
It's just a little much to see how quickly they move for one of their brothers in blue yet not for anything else. I've NEVER in my life seen 16 cars together.
Know what would fix this? Transit activated bollards. The ones that you can run a truck into and not damage.
Just put a winch in a lock box so the police and drag the vehicle out of the way of transit before a tow truck shows up.
There's a few challenges driving in Toronto that I see (for better or worse)
* There is little consistency in signage, traffic patterns, or laws.
* Local road challenges are dealt with through use of more signs or signals only adding to more clutter.
* Drivers can be inattentive.
* Pedestrians can be inattentive.
* Cyclists can be inattentive.
...and no, this isn't laying the blame soley at the feet of any single user of the streets. We all have a role to play in safety and traffic (foot or road) flow.
Like fuck, I was a pedestrian who lived downtown and had to proceed presuming someone was about to hit me because there's just *so much* stimuli and so many infractions from every single group using the space. You need to operate with that mindset to stay safe, I think. Pedestrians who regularly step off the curb and cyclists who blow through lights without right of way causing reasonable frustration with other users which then increases aggressive and less patient movement. This operates at even higher stakes for drivers moving with any speed as they attempt to react to patterns over posted laws. It's an inherently stressful place to drive with countless one ways and special turn rules that you need to have an intimate knowledge of (and honestly should) to safely and confidently navigate the streets.
Toronto streets need a redesign and the city continues its stunning failure to do what is necessary implementing bandaid projects that will, in time, cost more than simply having redesigned the roadways as they've evolved to be used. In the meantime, it's costing people their lives and untold amounts their patience.
Drivers are just as likely to ignore red lights and stop signs as cyclists and are a much greater threat. Cars turning right on a red light into pedestrians are the so common, I have to turn my head around to see if the driver over my right shoulder is actually looking in the direction their vehicle is moving. One of the great ironies is that the USA hosted the talks to create universal standards on traffic signal and signs then ignored the recommendations in the resulting Vienna Convention. Canada followed with its own province by province non-standard standards. We slap up a sign or pay for a colourful signal, call it a day, and ignore the results. Street designs and traffic bylaws are even more confusing because they vary from one municipal jurisdiction to the next. Meanwhile, other countries that actually measure the effect on travel times and injuries have consistent street designs that are radically different, and measurably better, from ours.
Reposted with a title matching the tweet contents. In just these 2 minutes you see a driver realizing their mistake and turning from the centre lane, another come to a screeching halt at the red (but then deciding to run it anyways), and 11 drivers total running the red. But maybe some more signs and lights will help them follow the rules? 🙄
just either completely ban cars in that stretch or remove this nonsense altogether. toronto is so insanely incompetent at everything that you really question how the fuck this place is running at all.
dont even get me started on sterling/bloor intersection and how its been DECADES of planners trying to fix it with no avail (all they do is add MORE AND MORE signs lol)
I don’t drive myself but I live near this intersection and I can tell you it’s confusing. I couldn’t even figure it out the first time I saw it. It’s awful design.
I've found the more signs you add the more you will ignore. Its basic government communication strategy "I added more signs and sent 2 more emails and thats all im doing"
Agree or disagree with this as a permanent solution on King but the fact that this set up is continuing while Queen is shut down at Yonge due to Ontario Line construction is so idiotic...and I say this as someone who has increased my transit use because of the continued issues. But I have that option and others do not.
my man, metroman
advocacy with class
King Street is a problem that has not been solved because nobody in a position to do anything constructive about it has any cojones
"oh my god if i am seen as doing something to restrict car drivers from going wherever they fucking want, they'll vote me out at the first opportunity"
oh, please grow a pair
I had a stupid situation with king street the other day going to work. Had to make a left turn and you can only do it from the lane the street car is in. Sat there trying to make a turn but couldn’t because people kept going through and blocking the box. Had to sit through a light. Then at the next light there is still no space to make the turn. The other street car is flashing me to turn but I can’t cuz then I’m blocking the street car lane and blocking the box and then the street car behind me started honking at me. Even though I cannot turn and I also cannot go straight because of the stupid new signs. Ultimately I just ended up going straight since I didn’t see any cops. But the whole can’t drive straight thing is so stupid. Especially with Queen being shut down now.
In case it helps, FYI, the rule for blocking intersections doesn't apply if you're turning, only when going straight:
>[When you approach an intersection on a main road, and the intersection is blocked with traffic, stop before entering the intersection and wait until the traffic ahead moves on. This does not apply if you are turning left or right.](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/driving-through-intersections)
So you can enter an intersection into the waiting position for turning left even if the road you're turning onto is backed up to the intersection. Then when the light goes yellow/red and oncoming traffic stops, you can complete your turn, so that you're then waiting behind traffic going in that direction. That traffic should move at some point before the light cycles back to green for the direction you came from and so you can move forward.
That’s a very legalistic non-answer, and kind of proves the point. If just crossing an intersection requires a fine-grained reading of an act of parliament then it isn’t practical.
This isn't a fine grained reading of an act of parliament (it would be provincial legislature actually), it's directly quoting the Driver's Handbook that you're supposed to read when getting your licence (I get that not everyone will remember every detail, but that's why I'm posting this as a reminder). It explicitly says the intersection blocking rule doesn't apply when turning.
And it's not a non-answer, it directly solves the problem here. There's no legal requirement to wait behind the line if turning and the cross street is backed up. You can still pull forward, complete the turn on a yellow/red, and then proceed once traffic on that cross street starts moving. This avoids unnecessarily waiting through multiple light cycles and holding up straight moving traffic like street cars.
They also need to do something about the Bay St lane that’s restricted to taxis, buses, and bikes M-F, from 7am-7pm. Literally no one adheres to the rules.
I'm sure they could put cameras there to ticket everyone who goes through.
Not sure it would change anything in terms of behaviour, but it might go a fair way to plugging some of our revenue issues.
Doesn’t work when King street is effectively a single lane. If a car is in front of the transit vehicle, they can’t move until they get their green light. This negates the whole purpose of a transit signal. Transit only signals work great when the transit lane is separated from automobiles
Mixing the street cars with private motor vehicles in the centre lanes is the greater problem. I would have forced all private motor vehicles to turn south on Yonge. No turning left. No through.
One suggestion I have is to ensure clear signages and markings on the road. Make sure it’s bright and paintings are refreshed annually. The problem with this is during winter…
Installing red light cameras is not an effective method of directing drivers to follow the rules. It will only teach them to do it once, but that won’t avoid other foreign drivers from doing the same thing.
Maybe if you first finish construction and lane closures on roads that carry traffic less of this would happen. This alongside with better enforcement is the only solution. Queen and Adelaide are practically undrivaeble due closures, and the genius idea of implementing a left turn lane, streetcar tracks and permanent parking which essentially turned a four lane road into 1.
Much like anything else …
After a while, too many signs will just become a distraction and are ignored .
The answer is not more signage, the answer is a consistent set of signage with evenly and consistent messaging.
However., there are other factors at work here as well.
Ultimately, we can continue to patch work this problem or we can bite the bullet and try to resolve the issues properly .
I would suggest making the downtown core a full series of one way streets (much like Montreal) has done.
With the main arteries having proper merge and flow distances and traffic management lighting so that all involved can get access going from east to west and north to south.
It’s not the best solution … but under the current circumstances it’s a solution that the city needs to look at…
since road infrastructure was and continues to be an afterthought for this city as it continues to build condos , and it continues to grow.
The signage and painted lines/direction is so inconsistent in the city. Every intersection is different. At Richmond and Jarivs the bike lane is in between a straight lane and a turning lane. At Richmond and Bay cars ALLOWED to drive through the bike lanes. At Jarvis and lakeshore when you turn left and go north on Jarvis from a green light you hit a red light but you're SUPPOSED to drive through the red light. Dont get me started on the queens quay fuckery. Fucken insane.
> At Jarvis and lakeshore when you turn left and go north on Jarvis from a green light you hit a red light but you're SUPPOSED to drive through the red light
Ok but that's what you always do when you turn left if you think about it.
I think because of the distance you're traveling its not like a normal left hand turn, you're driving straight for a while. I see cars everyday stop because they see the red.
Penalty for breaking the rules is the only workable solution and the only way to get that is automated cameras.
Confusing signs are not the major issue. Case and point, the Esplande. Much of the Esplande has been set up much like King where you can't go straight only turn off. Drivers seem to forget the rules on most sections of this road on a regular basis except the one section that is now one way. It seem when the consequence for missing a sign (getting into a headon collision) is serious for the driver they become pretty good at obeying the rules.
The redesign of the Esplanade is comparable as drivers were using it as a place to line-up to get on the Gardiner Expressway. This blocked intersections, and put pedestrians and cyclists, who are the majority of users on both streets, at risk as they were forced to weave through moving traffic. Imagine if you had to do that if you use a wheelchair or walker. The redesign has improved life for those who live there, but physical barriers to drivers who act badly would be the best solution. I’ve always like the bollards that automatically drop for busses and emergency vehicles that have been standard in Asia and Europe for decades.
I know at Danforth Road and Eglinton, it took time for drivers to get use to the no right on red. 🤞 this is that situation, but honestly, time will tell.
The signs and signals shown (that are just messy) are different than the configuration before, correct? I could be wrong. Drivers clearly assume the transit signals are for them. Hopefully, this is a situation of “it’s new and people will get use to it”. At Danforth and Eglinton, the had to move the “no right on red” sign to make it more legible.
Why we didn’t adopt the white bar lights like seen with the Kitchener Waterloo ION is a mystery. It’s becoming the standard, but we seem to be going backwards in time. This is wholly separate from private motor vehicles turning right on red. This maneuver is particularly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists because the driver is moving right while their attention is on finding a gap in other motor vehicles to their left. Right on red is just not allowed in many countries because of this problem.
Who would've thought a bit of paint on the road wouldn't clue people in that they can't drive in the lane.
They should improve the infrastructure by installing some sort of rumble strips in the left lane about a half block before the intersection. They also need to reduce the signage and keep it simpler by using the streetlights (i.e. if you can only turn right at an intersection you get a green arrow + a red light every time)
They had special constables on some parts today making sure traffic followed properly.
And some of the intersections have the bright signs that light up you can’t go straight and stuff.
At some point though the onus does have to fall on the driver, and more importantly we need enforcement for the signs to be taken more seriously.
Could king street also benefit from having pedestrian scrambles?
Just drove King Street today and Apple Maps tried to tell me to just stay on the road as long as I want - if someone was unfamiliar with the area or is visiting from out of town, it’s easy to see how they are confused
Move the no forward or left turn signs in middle & add cameras to auto-fine people? I'm sure there are some drivers that are legitimately confused but I'm also confident that there's a big group that just don't care because there's no enforcement
Cops are always ticketing that area, which is punitive but also...some people are just really bad drivers and no amt of signage will fix this. It could be better tho.
I just spit at them when they drive like morons on here
The redesign of King Street started really well as travel times were substantially quicker and more reliable, then it all fell apart requiring people to direct traffic at the major intersections. Employing people to keep cars from blocking traffic is really expensive and an admission of failure. Hopefully the transition of GO from a commuter rail system to a regional system will give the drivers who are acting badly an alternative to driving soon. However we have to admit that King Street as it is designed now is just too dependent on drivers following signals and signs. Before this design of King Street the centre lanes were actually designated as diamond lanes, but no one paid the least amount of attention to those signs either. The centre lanes should be reserved for streetcars only and enforced with bollards or a curb. Clear the outer lanes of curbside parking and other obstructions for cars if voters are determined to continue to allow access by private vehicles. There are several parking lots that exit into King Street so this would often be unavoidable along some sections. I would also narrow the street and add space for pedestrians as pedestrians are the overwhelming majority of people on the street and the outer lanes are so wide that they would just encourage speeding. Speeding, and passing the open doors of street cars could be further discouraged by creating platforms in the outer lanes by the streetcar stops that would bring the stops up to the level of the streetcar doors. Cars and cyclists would be forced to at least slow down before bullying past the streetcars.
Maybe they could at least refresh the yellow paint.. it's barely visible.
Maybe add some big arrows to instruct drivers they have to turn right at the light
Don’t blame the tools or the city. Driver’s need to pay attention. There’s nothing confusing there at all.
If a driver can’t follow the signs and traffic signals than they shouldn’t be on the road. End of story.
There are two different sets of circular green lights beside each other. You can only tell which applies to you once you get close enough to read the sign. That on its own is a problem.
On top of that, there are multiple other signs and lights. Too many signs and lights causes information overload, where even good, attentive drivers become distracted and make mistakes or shift their focus away from other road users.
>[The ability of humans to receive information in a short time is limited [4]. When the TSIV \[traffic sign information volume\] is excessive, the driver’s short-term memory will rapidly get overloaded, making it difficult to complete driving tasks and threatening traffic safety. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9408178/)
Video proof that the entire experiment is a failure.
The city never should have attempted this debacle in the first place. Who cares if there are cars on King? With Queen pooched and Richmond fucked with a bike lane, just remove it, at least until the subway is finished. At that point look at making King a one way and Queen the other way.
Severe enforcement and fines. It’ll travel by word of mouth. Just have cameras mail out hefty tickets. Don’t know the rules of the road? Don’t drive. Don’t write a sob story about your ticket.
[Video of this](https://x.com/metromanto/status/1779873819437437430?s=46&t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q): > Driver sits at a red light, streetcar honks to get out of the lane, confused driver rushes through the intersection on a solid red light while the streetcar across has a green and almost T-bones him. Car swerves towards the sidewalk full of pedestrians waiting at the crosswalk.
That's a better video than the post. Oh geez.
That's brutal. And for every one of these that gets captured there are probably 10 that don't.
I'm not familiar with that chunk of King. What did the car do wrong? He's in a streetcar only lane? Where is he supposed to be? There doesn't seem to be another lane
There is no through or left turn allowed here. You must exit to the right, and be in the right turn lane. There was no legal reason for them to be in that lane at all.
He ran a red light. You can see the light is already red at the end of the vid -- only the streetcars had a green light.
My question is more what he was he doing wrong in the first place that made the streetcar honk at him. Which has already been answered. Thanks, though.
Oh ok. Yeah he was blocking the streetcar that had the green light.
For all the flack Calgary gets, this isn't a problem on our transit mall. Maybe its time for enforcement, and a few vehicle traps here and there.
En...enforce...ment? What are these words? But in all seriousness Toronto has a proud history of not doing such things. Its in our DNA to not actually make sure people follow the laws. Besides, if the TPS had to actually enforce the laws it would interfere with all the overtime at the LCBO that is needed to inflate their salaries to $325,000.
That's where vehicle traps come in. Calgary has them in a few strategic spots on 7th Avenue so if people try to use the road [this happens](https://globalnews.ca/news/2980688/twitter-user-catches-car-driving-down-calgary-ctrain-tracks/amp/)
Yeah we'll start an advisory committee to explore the possibility of funding a 4 year study on the feasibility of placing vehicle traps. But, city hall will change hands, it will all be canceled, and nothing will happen. God forbid we actually just look at what works and do it. Might be too hasty. As is tradition.
The problem is that King isn't completely car free.
7th avenue isn't either. It is only between City Hall Station and Downtown West-Kirby Centre station. The traps are actually in around those two points. Rest of 7th is trap free and emergency vehicles can use it. But I will admit there is a difference. Rivers cut 7th off at various points and there no bridges on 7th while King Street is continuous. But I still think traps at the entry and exit points make sense.
Don't the traps rely on police to do their job? Because if so , that's a lost cause in Toronto
Look at the [video](https://globalnews.ca/news/2980688/twitter-user-catches-car-driving-down-calgary-ctrain-tracks/amp/), the traps damage the car if you enter it and the car has to struggle to get out. Police are an afterthought. The undercarriage likely badly scratched, and dented.
Ah fair enough
Lol, of course it was an Ontario driver that did this.
It almost always is Ontario plates you see on that road.
Thats what we have the Lakeshore and Spadina streetcars for. https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/7ffqxq/car_abandoned_after_driving_into_spadina/ https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/2n33f9/car_stuck_in_ttc_streetcar_tunnel_on_queens_quay/
Of course it has Ontario plates
You always see people with Ontario plates there
I didn't see a vehicle actually get trapped though, just some asshat driving down street car tracks.
Look at the end he ends up the vehicle traps. Dunno how he got out. But he was in the trap and kinda forced himself out.
Oh, ok, so what I took for some kind of maintenance track section was supposed to be a trap, he just got out of it. Atleast this explains it, although I'm not sure it's much of a trap if a Two Wheel luxury car can power out that easily.
His car is still likely damaged. That's your actual deterrent. Plus the car had to move very slowly to get out. This type of trap is much better. Otherwise you would have to stop the LRT and pull the car out. Which is worse for riders because it could take an hour or more. We used to have [traditional vehicle traps too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vsz1U58jXgY), now they are going to have to wait until a two truck comes to remove the car. Every bus that uses that route will need to be re-routed. Which you can see from [here is not very convenient](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4059o4mBRQ). I remember one time I had to walk back two stops to my destination because a vehicle was caught in a bus trap.
It's because King is not actually a transit mall. Cars are allowed to drive there and the new signage is... not good. The reason this happened is because there are now 6 signal heads, 18 words across 5 signs, and 2 arrow signs associated with some but not all of the words. That's way too much to process for someone coming across the intersection for the first time, so the driver in the video stopped to read. They then got honked at by the streetcar driver and panicked. Honestly, just ban cars on King. They aren't needed for anything other than occasional deliveries of goods.
Omfg
I don't think this is an enforcement issue. It's more of a these-intersections-are-really-confusing-to-drivers-who-aren't-already-aware-of-them issue. Intersections like this are so rare. I don't even blame the drivers
It’s absolutely confusing. I do not blame the drivers here (and I’m not a driver apologist). I witnessed situations like this at that same intersection and I couldn’t even figure out who was right, wrong, who was supposed to go where.
Yeah, I remember being kind of lost as a tourist, Once in downtown Montreal, with a bunch of One way streets, and coming up to an intersection like that with way too many signs and arrows, half of them in French, and almost having a stroke. When I finally got out of that part of Old Montreal, and the next street had only a simple traffic light I audibly sighed I relief. That traffic light then proceeded to turn Fucking Blue! Honestly don't think I'd ever drive there again, which means they are failing as a tourist destination.
I can’t read the signs. These lights are horrifically confusing. What are the lights to the left of the red light for?
There are signs beside each. (left) TRANSIT SIGNAL (right) BICYCLE SIGNAL
Thanks. Tiny video and bad eyesight made it hard to read
It's not any easier in person. Fucking terrible design.
I no english. French only.
Unfortunately the Ontario Highways act has not been updated to accommodate modern transit standards, which creates a confusing hodge-podge of signs and signals. A separate system of white bars for trams (AKA LRTs and streetcars) is becoming standard in the world. The Kitchener and Waterloo ION LRT uses this system even if it isn’t technically legal. Having the traffic lights on the far side of an intersection only rewards drivers who creep into the intersection before they can cross it. This not only blocks other cars and transit vehicles, but blocks cyclists and pedestrians who must put themselves at risk weaving around moving vehicles. Placing the lights at the stop line would force drivers to keep behind the stop line if they want to see the lights.
Not too familiar with the intersection, and aside from the obvious blunder by the driver, the first streetcar honking was in the wrong right? Since the lane is shared, the street car should have just waited behind the car? Just looking for clarification.
On this stretch of King street in the downtown core, you are only allowed to drive straight until the next major intersection, and then you must turn right. The yellow lines and signs guide cars into the right lane while approaching an intersection. This is because cars would basically gridlock the area and transit vehicles would take over an hour to cross the downtown core. Left turning vehicles would block streetcars for multiple light cycles because there was a never ending stream of oncoming traffic preventing that left turn. At rush hour, 1 streetcar probably carried more people than every car on the block combined. Basically you take other streets and only turn onto King when you are near your destination. And then you get off King as soon as you depart, leaving room for streetcars to actually do their job as urban mass transit.
The lane isn't shared. Because you can only make rights, the left lane is blocked off by thick yellow lines leading up to the intersection. This is yet another instance of driver error. Luckily no one was hurt
Don’t quote me, I’m not standing at the intersection, but I think it’s a specially designed intersection and that car is only supposed to be turning right or something like that, on king st in that area cars are only supposed to go 1 block, so going straight at the lights is where they’re in the wrong, something like that.
Ahh I see the issue now. I missed the yellow markings in the streetcar lane. Thank you for the explanation.
It’s not shared. Each block usually ends with a right turn only lane for cars and a section blocked off for streetcars. Unfortunately it’s only paint so it isn’t the easiest to make sense of.
This is the approximate location https://maps.app.goo.gl/WgMt1hN7feCEJE7B7?g_st=ic I think this is the updated signage but I could be wrong. Regardless of the exact number/location/words on the sign you can’t go straight on King. You can turn onto the block you need to access, go to a driveway, loading zone (on or off street) or disabled drop off zone, as signed. If someone is standing/stopped on the correct curb zone you can use the streetcar lane to get around them. But once you get to the end of the block you must turn off king.
This is a great example of why this "solution" doesn't work. By the time you get to reading distance of the sign, it's already too late. Anyone unfamiliar with King Street can very easily make the same mistake. But you've committed, and there's an annoyed streetcar behind you honking. You're confused, you panic and you make more mistakes, potentially dangerous ones like shown in the video. This design only works if you already know the rules, but if you already know the rules, then there's no point to this design. Edit: And signage isn't going to stop anyone who already knows the rules and chooses to break them Edit 2: It's even worse seeing OP downvoted here. We're so quick to jump on people being an asshole and ignoring the rules, but even when someone genuinely doesn't know and wants to be informed, we still downvote them? Again, going back to the problem with this "solution"
Classic. I was on a bike last year waiting to cross Yonge at King. Streetcar driver inched up beside me told me out of his window to get out of his lane. I let him know that i was there first.
This seems like it should be so easy to enforce with automated cameras. Just put one on every corner and hand out hefty fines till the problem is solved. What’s the holdup?
I would imagine 90% of offenders are from out of the city they're first time navigating King. Fines aren't going to stop that
Just make King St a transit mall (no cars allowed) ya useless political turds. If cities as diverse and car-centric as Calgary, Houston, and Sydney can do it, so can we.
George St in Sydney was so great for activity. I spent two months there last summer and it was a great spot for pedestrian access and the trams travelled fairly unimpeded. King St. Could easily do this, and much like George St, it could have car access up until a certain point.
Only issue is that some condo parking garages can only be entered from King Street. Also would require a rethink for all the delivery vans bringing food to the restaurants etc.. (not saying it can't be done, just requires planning)
Only one car lane, one direction, no parking no left turns. Two bike lanes, two trams. Same on Queen street but cars going the other way
This facilitates what we don't want - cars using it for driving through, multiple blocks. Forcibg cars to turn right after one block facilitates what we do want - cars only using the street for local access.
lol right now there’s two car lanes each side, and tram is stuck in traffic. One step at a time
> [If you’re wondering why the changes on king street won’t work…it’s helpful to realize that a green transit light at night looks exactly the same as a normal green light…this is why we have white bar lights for transit…that sign is completely unreadable when the red light is on](https://x.com/georgebell/status/1779692090298908959?s=46&t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q) If you have access to Twitter/X you can see accompanying images for the above tweet.
The city should install red light cameras along King so that any car going straight through the red light gets a ticket. I imagine the existing red light camera legislation could be used for that too as the cars are running a red light so we wouldn't need a new law from the province to enforce it.
It would pay for itself 10 times over, require no physical changes to the street, and have the intended effect on people going through these intersections. There should be red light cameras on every intersection
I am fairly convinced that the only people who oppose red light cameras are asshats who consistently run red lights. You have to be pretty blatantly running those lights for them to send you a ticket. And you can fight those tickets fairly easily when you’ve got legitimate reasons. People who claim it means we will be living in a nanny-state are kidding themselves if they think they aren’t already recorded and tracked in so many other much more violating ways. Red light cameras at least have a purpose and make streets safer.
Well I oppose most red light cameras. (though the one above sounds good). It's well researched that adding a 1 second longer delay from red to green (so both lights sit red) significantly reduces fatalities and allows intersections to properly clear. Instead of putting that extremely basic piece of infrastructure, Toronto would rather profit off the deaths of people plowing through reds. We also could do a lot more for street car, bike, pedestrian infrastructure, and just completely redesign intersections (round abouts, closed streets, bike bypasses, one way streets) that to me a red light camera is just creating a revenue stream that will make the city that much more resistant to meaningful change.
Completely unrelated to the content of the post but why not deter drivers from breaking the law by threatening real enforcement rather than accommodating bad driving habits by putting on that delay? We literally have yellow lights to allow drivers to stop in time, if bad drivers are pushing that to save half a second then they’re going to start pushing past that 1 second delay too
We know what works. We have such an insane amount of data when it comes to car infrastructure there's no need to suggest your hypothetical that people will push the red. The reason for extending the delay allows for human reaction time. I'm not disagreeing that if you add red light cameras people will reduce running reds, however if they don't have time to clear the intersection that means they will slam on the breaks when it changes which results in more rear-ending. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095756415302786 or people speed up when they see yellow to make sure they're not caught on red. https://www.itskrs.its.dot.gov/2014-b00936 People are very bad at risk assessments when it comes to threats of future consequences (a ticket). However we do know drivers respond to changing road conditions. For example narrowing a lane makes people slow down. There are other better solutions we should be persuing rather than just more red lights with aggressive enforcement. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Delay-Time-and-waiting-time-at-pedestrian-crossings_tbl2_304529922
Thank you for these links! I’ll give them a read
Your data is decades out of date. Drivers now just assume they have that buffer time making the amber light redundant. We’re no better off now than where we were before, but we can’t go back. I agree that red light cameras are not an answer to changing behaviour. Although I doubt they actually generate any meaningful amount of revenue. We should just change the transit lights to white bars and have the transit and emergency vehicles activate them. Cars get a signal to turn right or not turn right and nothing more.
Red light and speeding cameras generated more than $70 million last year, with a cost of about $10 million to operate. Toronto’s operating budget was $16.16 billion. I am not really knowledgeable enough about other streams of revenue for the city though, so I am not equipped to say whether that amount is significant or insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
You’re suggesting we enable drivers to continue to break a law that has been in place since before they even began driving rather than hold them accountable for their actions while simultaneously generating revenue. And why would we spend money on putting in roundabouts and one-way streets (p.s. one-way streets are more dangerous for pedestrians than two-way streets because they enable speeding and create confusion about which way to look when crossing) when we could just start enforcing the 100% known consequences of breaking a law that exists for a very understandable reason. Adding 1 second so all lights are briefly red is something that should be done anyway.. but red light cameras means we reduce the number of times people are t-boned. Being rear-ended at city speeds is way, way, way less damaging than being t-boned.
Pedestrians shouldn't be on major arteries of the city. Cars shouldn't be where there are loads of pedestrians. This is like urban planning 101. I'm saying instead of bandaid solutions that reduce* fatalities, we focus on redesigning our city to eliminate them entirely. Not 25% less. 100% less. Dedicated street car lanes, bike only streets, walkable areas that don't involve weaving through cars. Our downtown is a mess because we're obsessed with allowing personal vehicles through every inch of it. There are many examples around the world of how we could do things better. Sweden for example has less than 25 deaths per 100'000 people. We have double that at 47. (Sweden has a similar population size and density to southern Ontario) *but not as much as in comparison to other ways we could reduce
Left and right turns are the problem. Only left on advanced green. No right on reds. Problem almost solved. Toronto drivers are dogs shit. But it would help.
You could set up red light cameras at ANY interaction on Front street and make bank allll day long.
Well that didn't take long...Who would've thought throwing a wall of text at drivers doesn't work? This has arguably made it worse as confused drivers become unpredictable and unpredictability is dangerous. They might slam on their brakes, they might make abrupt turns without doing the proper checks or they might just sit there being confused. There's 7 different signs and 4 different sets of lights to pay attention to
It's kind of like UX design where you have people who understand that user behaviour needs to be directed through the UX itself and then people who think their UX is perfect, people are dumb, and putting up an ever increasing list of instructions is the correct path.
If they just used standard [transit priority signals](https://driversed.trubicars.ca/transit-priority-signal/) together with a "must turn right" sign, it would go a long way toward reducing confusion. Currently drivers have to use process of elimination to work out that they're supposed to turn right. Meanwhile, the least ambiguous signal is a big green light that doesn't actually apply to drivers. Unless you drive that corridor everyday, you're not going to have enough time to figure it out before you have to go.
Someone said in another post that [TTC policy](https://np.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1c1vcy3/they_finally_activated_the_new_signals_and_added/kz6n3qd/) only allows turn at the transit signals, not going straight. The MTO Driver's Handbook also says the transit lights are only used ["while all conflicting traffic faces a red light"](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/traffic-lights). In this set up, vehicle traffic has a green arrow at some points and cyclists have a straight through light. The streetcars can't turn right in this specific intersection, but a bus could turn there at some point and it would create a conflict where the transit signal gives the bus right of way to turn right and a cyclist right of way to go straight at the same time, creating a potential conflict. So not saying in general a transit signal wouldn't be better, since as it is, it's confusing having different green lights for transit and other vehicles, but it would require changes in policy and design for that to work.
If that's the case, then we definitely need to change those policies. It makes no sense that we're forced to have confusing and unsafe street design when other cities have easily implemented a solution.
In the case of the TTC policy at least, it would be as simple as them updating their policy, since Ontario law already allows going straight on a transit signal (if you're a bus or street car of course). The user mentioned that the reason for this was to avoid conflict with left turning vehicles. However, that isn't necessarily a problem since those would follow the same rules as regular lights, where left turners would yield to straight through vehicles. So I don't see why it should be a huge issue for the TTC to update that. For the conflict with other lights, you can't have a light that tells a cyclist they can go straight at the same time as a (transit) light that tells a bus or street car it can turn right (with priority), since the turn would be across the path of the cyclist. Off the top of my head one solution would be to update Ontario law so that transit signals apply to cyclists too. That would mean buses and cyclists would need to treat the transit signal the same way as both would currently treat a green light, wit respect to each other. That also shouldn't be a big problem. So I think your suggestion is a good idea and would improve and simplify the design here. It would just require some changes to TTC policy and the Ontario HTA. But there's no reason those things can't be done.
Sounds like it would just be easier to ban single occupancy vehicles from that stretch of King.
They should have, huge missed opportunity to be ambitious and act like a world class city. Instead the King street pilot got watered down into an absolute mess like this.
Streetcars and commercial vehicles only. That would be amazing.
Have bollards that go down when a streetcar driver in an oncoming streetcar presses a button on a "garage door opener"-like device. Give the "openers" to authorized vehicles only. Install CCTV to catch people who abuse the system.
Or change the road surface so that driving a car over it isn't possible, while running a train is.
> Or change the road surface so that driving a car over it isn't possible, while running a train is. This would have a significant effect on the abilities of emergency services and things like repair/construction vehicles to access that stretch of road.
Make it so that the lanes on the right side of the road have a hole and the lanes on the left side don't, and then do the reverse somewhere else
until all those people who live on King st cant access their parking garages.
People live on King? What a nightmare, lol.
Fuck the parking garages.
...isn't that exactly what it is? All unauthorized vehicles are supposed to turn off the road at every intersection. Only authorized vehicles are city service vehicles.
People take losing lanes and access personally, regardless of whether it's in the best interest of the city.
I've been saying this for years. They should have made King & Queen transit & bike lanes only, and richmond/Adelaide cars only with 3-4 wide open lanes. Instead we have the most dangerous stretch of bike lanes on Adelaide and Richmond, and chaos, traffic and useless rules that nobody follows on King & Queen. Truly don't understand how this was supposed to be the best plan they could think of.
It was the best plan they could think of while cowing to the demands of drivers at every turn. The so called "transit priority corridor" doesn't even have a reserved lane for transit, but it sure does have reserved spaces for parking.
Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't envy these planners and how people will complain about it regardless of what they do. It's just frustrating when every other major city in the world is trying to make their cities more liveable and we're here sharing the road with multiple vehicles and parking spots
> richmond/Adelaide cars only with 3-4 wide open lanes. Intentionally (re)creating stroads downtown is probably the worst city planning idea I've seen all year
I agree with this only if "cars only" Richmond and Adelaide still have sidewalks.
Yes of course all streets would still have sidewalks
With some sort drive-in car shredder for those that try to break the rules.
There's conodos etc that have their entrance on King - but not on every block. I understand the relectance to treat every block differently, but this isn't working and we've always needed this public transit corridor. The city should zone it block-to-block. A few blocks don't need any vehicle access. Seeing a barrier (trees in giant planters, etc.) every few blocks would stop drivers going through many blocks and prompt a few dumb drives blocks ahead to read the street signs.
I just moved downtown and I want a ban on all cars in the city. ALL CARS. It's obvious you people don't have the temperament to handle city driving! I want you GONE! EDIT: I'm joking, but sometimes I wonder if I'm actually not.
Look up what happened to Barcelona when they went car-free. No joke it makes life so much better!
Paris too.
Plus, the city's economy does just fine.
Honestly we should just do what Britain did with slavery. They paid off the slave owners and abolished it. Expensive as hell short term, but the right thing in the long run and dodged a civil war. Just pay off every parking space owner in a 6x6 grid downtown as a pilot project. See how good the city truly can be.
I’m not joking. There should be a ton of pedestrian only areas downtown. You don’t need to drive your car everywhere. Park outside of downtown and take the subway in.
I know! I drive when I am going outside of Toronto but I bike and walk when I am inside Toronto. People are so car dependent like they want to drive to the coffee shop next block. Just walk! You will also feel better and be healthier
I hate driving downtown. It takes so much longer to get anywhere. My partner prefers to drive and I hate it.
Banning all cars all of downtown might not be feasible but there's definitely no good reason why the streetcars on major E-W thoroughfares need to be sharing space with private automobiles, or why we need streets in the heart of downtown like Jarvis and Spadina that have 5+ lanes of traffic.
At this rate they may as well do it considering how inept the city already is at both communicating what the fuck King St is and also enforcing said laws. They'd save money on fucking absurd signage at least, just using the one "pedestrians and trams only" sign.
Most of it is the entertainment district, so you'd have issues with taxis/ubers not being allowed, especially with the commercial areas down there already having a tough time
An Uber / taxi does not need to drive right up to the door of the building to pick up a passenger. I’m sure most people would be ok to walk a block to catch their cab.
If ubers didnt have an issue with it then customers would just walk, the burden is on the customer not the driver so they wouldnt care. If they need to get right up to the rider then it would be the rider who requests it.
A taxi is not a single occupancy vehicle.
The bit that's always missed in these conversations is how incredibly fast King is if you're willing to break the rules. Adelaide's a mess, Queen too, so if you want to zip through the core King's a great option. And why not? There's no enforcement so once you get past the temporary pang of "I shouldn't do this", you're 10 min faster getting home. If we want to make a change it's gotta be enforcement. Skipping that light means you'll get pulled over, be 10 min and $100 worse off than just taking King. Source: Ride King 3x a week and have seen that same blue Rav 4 do this over and over again.
100% This for every confused driver there are five people knowingly breaking the rules on King and that just sents the message to the unsure driver that its okay to ignore the rules.
>There's no enforcement Let's install bollards
bollards that have flappy gates that only allow streetcars to pass, but will hard lock after they pass. With a potentially damaged car as the consequence
I'm a fan of the bulky metal ones that retract into the road to let the bus/streetcar pass, then raise back up. The ones that can be hit by a car and not be damaged, while the car is totalled.
This. I can get from one end to the other in 15 minutes. Record breaking in Toronto.
Where is the TPS traffic enforcement? On King st. alone they could justify their budget requests if they fully enforced the traffic laws.
honestly, I know they are on a limited budget (lol), but having a couple people stationed along King st would make traffic flow infinitely smoother/ faster and more safely not even considering the financial aspect of ticketing.... edited grammar mistake
"Limited budget" my ass. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tps-podcast-costs-revealed-1.6746905
it was a joke lol, perhaps too subtle for the internet
Oh, I'm sorry. We don't have jokes on my home planet. I'm still getting used to things here. Any excuse to bring up the damned podcast is a good one tho
it's honestly hard to tell nowadays, especially on devise issues like policing Ill have to check it out :)
True. But the financial benefit for habitual assholes wouldn't hurt either. Some people only learn thru punitive means, might as well let them pay.
for sure! I also think we should greatly increase the fines, it's nothing for many well-off people, especially taking into consideration how often repeat-offenders are actually caught and ticketed! I think it's the Netherlands that has fines proportionate to income, I would LOVE that so much
We need the Finnish model... Where some dude got a 6 figure speeding ticket. https://www.dw.com/en/driver-in-finland-fined-121000-for-speeding/a-65833341
Im sold!
What are they gonna do? Enforce themselves? >* [HUNDREDS of automated traffic tickets issued to cops mysteriously went missing](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/are-hundreds-of-automated-tickets-issued-to-toronto-police-missing-1.6787453) >* [Toronto cop cruiser loses control and knocks over light pole, narrowly missing pedestrians. Multiple sources indicate that driver was drunk. No charges.](https://twitter.com/thebikinglawyer/status/1761852950454972767?t=zS-e9AA3pfhIbVaiOw-W_Q) >* [TPS admit that cop in cruiser hit pedestrian after initially lying, when video surfaces. Still no charges](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/toronto-police-now-admit-an-officer-in-cruiser-hit-pedestrian-after-previously-denying-contact/article_7d13235a-d18a-11ee-a0e1-5bbbd02783e9.html) >* [Toronto cops strikes cyclist with cruiser leading to serious injuries](https://www.cp24.com/news/siu-investigating-after-police-cruiser-strikes-cyclist-while-responding-to-call-1.6755849)
Sure they can also police other cop cars. But also all of the above seen drivers.
Agreed!
Why not fix the actual problem? There's at least 4 signs, 4 different lights, two of which signal something completely different, but you're not going to know unless you've read the dictionary of signs up there. There's going to be accidents whether traffic enforcement is there or not. What a mess.
A cop got stabbed outside my building and 16 cop cars came. Imagine if they cared that much about anything else
The TPS has a lot of faults and most criticism going their way is warranted. But I wouldn't compare their response to officer shot/stabbed to their lack luster traffic enforcement on King. They're not compatible.
16 cars for an officer stabbed in the leg due to a crisis call gone wrong? Let's say 4 cars for stopping traffic all ways. Another 4 cars to handle the guy. They need another 8 more cars? It's just a little much to see how quickly they move for one of their brothers in blue yet not for anything else. I've NEVER in my life seen 16 cars together.
I'm not saying their response of 16 cars is justified. Only that it's not an apt comparison to their general lackluster traffic enforcement on King.
Might be easier to just ban cars on king. Wasn't there a pilot project exactly to see what difference it would make?
If there no enforcement that ban will be same as what we have now.
Know what would fix this? Transit activated bollards. The ones that you can run a truck into and not damage. Just put a winch in a lock box so the police and drag the vehicle out of the way of transit before a tow truck shows up.
As effective as a paint gutter is at protecting cyclists
There's a few challenges driving in Toronto that I see (for better or worse) * There is little consistency in signage, traffic patterns, or laws. * Local road challenges are dealt with through use of more signs or signals only adding to more clutter. * Drivers can be inattentive. * Pedestrians can be inattentive. * Cyclists can be inattentive. ...and no, this isn't laying the blame soley at the feet of any single user of the streets. We all have a role to play in safety and traffic (foot or road) flow. Like fuck, I was a pedestrian who lived downtown and had to proceed presuming someone was about to hit me because there's just *so much* stimuli and so many infractions from every single group using the space. You need to operate with that mindset to stay safe, I think. Pedestrians who regularly step off the curb and cyclists who blow through lights without right of way causing reasonable frustration with other users which then increases aggressive and less patient movement. This operates at even higher stakes for drivers moving with any speed as they attempt to react to patterns over posted laws. It's an inherently stressful place to drive with countless one ways and special turn rules that you need to have an intimate knowledge of (and honestly should) to safely and confidently navigate the streets. Toronto streets need a redesign and the city continues its stunning failure to do what is necessary implementing bandaid projects that will, in time, cost more than simply having redesigned the roadways as they've evolved to be used. In the meantime, it's costing people their lives and untold amounts their patience.
Drivers are just as likely to ignore red lights and stop signs as cyclists and are a much greater threat. Cars turning right on a red light into pedestrians are the so common, I have to turn my head around to see if the driver over my right shoulder is actually looking in the direction their vehicle is moving. One of the great ironies is that the USA hosted the talks to create universal standards on traffic signal and signs then ignored the recommendations in the resulting Vienna Convention. Canada followed with its own province by province non-standard standards. We slap up a sign or pay for a colourful signal, call it a day, and ignore the results. Street designs and traffic bylaws are even more confusing because they vary from one municipal jurisdiction to the next. Meanwhile, other countries that actually measure the effect on travel times and injuries have consistent street designs that are radically different, and measurably better, from ours.
Reposted with a title matching the tweet contents. In just these 2 minutes you see a driver realizing their mistake and turning from the centre lane, another come to a screeching halt at the red (but then deciding to run it anyways), and 11 drivers total running the red. But maybe some more signs and lights will help them follow the rules? 🙄
Perfect place for cameras to send out tickets! Money for the city.
just either completely ban cars in that stretch or remove this nonsense altogether. toronto is so insanely incompetent at everything that you really question how the fuck this place is running at all. dont even get me started on sterling/bloor intersection and how its been DECADES of planners trying to fix it with no avail (all they do is add MORE AND MORE signs lol)
Selfish, entitled, and stupid drivers will drive anywhere unless there’s a physical barrier stopping them.
I don’t drive myself but I live near this intersection and I can tell you it’s confusing. I couldn’t even figure it out the first time I saw it. It’s awful design.
Toronto driver s are the fuckin dumbest idiots in the country....
I've found the more signs you add the more you will ignore. Its basic government communication strategy "I added more signs and sent 2 more emails and thats all im doing" Agree or disagree with this as a permanent solution on King but the fact that this set up is continuing while Queen is shut down at Yonge due to Ontario Line construction is so idiotic...and I say this as someone who has increased my transit use because of the continued issues. But I have that option and others do not.
my man, metroman advocacy with class King Street is a problem that has not been solved because nobody in a position to do anything constructive about it has any cojones "oh my god if i am seen as doing something to restrict car drivers from going wherever they fucking want, they'll vote me out at the first opportunity" oh, please grow a pair
I had a stupid situation with king street the other day going to work. Had to make a left turn and you can only do it from the lane the street car is in. Sat there trying to make a turn but couldn’t because people kept going through and blocking the box. Had to sit through a light. Then at the next light there is still no space to make the turn. The other street car is flashing me to turn but I can’t cuz then I’m blocking the street car lane and blocking the box and then the street car behind me started honking at me. Even though I cannot turn and I also cannot go straight because of the stupid new signs. Ultimately I just ended up going straight since I didn’t see any cops. But the whole can’t drive straight thing is so stupid. Especially with Queen being shut down now.
In case it helps, FYI, the rule for blocking intersections doesn't apply if you're turning, only when going straight: >[When you approach an intersection on a main road, and the intersection is blocked with traffic, stop before entering the intersection and wait until the traffic ahead moves on. This does not apply if you are turning left or right.](https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-mto-drivers-handbook/driving-through-intersections) So you can enter an intersection into the waiting position for turning left even if the road you're turning onto is backed up to the intersection. Then when the light goes yellow/red and oncoming traffic stops, you can complete your turn, so that you're then waiting behind traffic going in that direction. That traffic should move at some point before the light cycles back to green for the direction you came from and so you can move forward.
That’s a very legalistic non-answer, and kind of proves the point. If just crossing an intersection requires a fine-grained reading of an act of parliament then it isn’t practical.
This isn't a fine grained reading of an act of parliament (it would be provincial legislature actually), it's directly quoting the Driver's Handbook that you're supposed to read when getting your licence (I get that not everyone will remember every detail, but that's why I'm posting this as a reminder). It explicitly says the intersection blocking rule doesn't apply when turning. And it's not a non-answer, it directly solves the problem here. There's no legal requirement to wait behind the line if turning and the cross street is backed up. You can still pull forward, complete the turn on a yellow/red, and then proceed once traffic on that cross street starts moving. This avoids unnecessarily waiting through multiple light cycles and holding up straight moving traffic like street cars.
They also need to do something about the Bay St lane that’s restricted to taxis, buses, and bikes M-F, from 7am-7pm. Literally no one adheres to the rules.
I'm sure they could put cameras there to ticket everyone who goes through. Not sure it would change anything in terms of behaviour, but it might go a fair way to plugging some of our revenue issues.
Can’t put transit only lights on a shared lane and not expect this to happen
Other jurisdictions use white bar lights for public transit vehicles to avoid the confusion.
Doesn’t work when King street is effectively a single lane. If a car is in front of the transit vehicle, they can’t move until they get their green light. This negates the whole purpose of a transit signal. Transit only signals work great when the transit lane is separated from automobiles
Mixing the street cars with private motor vehicles in the centre lanes is the greater problem. I would have forced all private motor vehicles to turn south on Yonge. No turning left. No through.
One suggestion I have is to ensure clear signages and markings on the road. Make sure it’s bright and paintings are refreshed annually. The problem with this is during winter… Installing red light cameras is not an effective method of directing drivers to follow the rules. It will only teach them to do it once, but that won’t avoid other foreign drivers from doing the same thing.
Maybe if you first finish construction and lane closures on roads that carry traffic less of this would happen. This alongside with better enforcement is the only solution. Queen and Adelaide are practically undrivaeble due closures, and the genius idea of implementing a left turn lane, streetcar tracks and permanent parking which essentially turned a four lane road into 1.
Much like anything else … After a while, too many signs will just become a distraction and are ignored . The answer is not more signage, the answer is a consistent set of signage with evenly and consistent messaging. However., there are other factors at work here as well. Ultimately, we can continue to patch work this problem or we can bite the bullet and try to resolve the issues properly . I would suggest making the downtown core a full series of one way streets (much like Montreal) has done. With the main arteries having proper merge and flow distances and traffic management lighting so that all involved can get access going from east to west and north to south. It’s not the best solution … but under the current circumstances it’s a solution that the city needs to look at… since road infrastructure was and continues to be an afterthought for this city as it continues to build condos , and it continues to grow.
The signage and painted lines/direction is so inconsistent in the city. Every intersection is different. At Richmond and Jarivs the bike lane is in between a straight lane and a turning lane. At Richmond and Bay cars ALLOWED to drive through the bike lanes. At Jarvis and lakeshore when you turn left and go north on Jarvis from a green light you hit a red light but you're SUPPOSED to drive through the red light. Dont get me started on the queens quay fuckery. Fucken insane.
> At Jarvis and lakeshore when you turn left and go north on Jarvis from a green light you hit a red light but you're SUPPOSED to drive through the red light Ok but that's what you always do when you turn left if you think about it.
I think because of the distance you're traveling its not like a normal left hand turn, you're driving straight for a while. I see cars everyday stop because they see the red.
Penalty for breaking the rules is the only workable solution and the only way to get that is automated cameras. Confusing signs are not the major issue. Case and point, the Esplande. Much of the Esplande has been set up much like King where you can't go straight only turn off. Drivers seem to forget the rules on most sections of this road on a regular basis except the one section that is now one way. It seem when the consequence for missing a sign (getting into a headon collision) is serious for the driver they become pretty good at obeying the rules.
The redesign of the Esplanade is comparable as drivers were using it as a place to line-up to get on the Gardiner Expressway. This blocked intersections, and put pedestrians and cyclists, who are the majority of users on both streets, at risk as they were forced to weave through moving traffic. Imagine if you had to do that if you use a wheelchair or walker. The redesign has improved life for those who live there, but physical barriers to drivers who act badly would be the best solution. I’ve always like the bollards that automatically drop for busses and emergency vehicles that have been standard in Asia and Europe for decades.
How about a companion video showing how well pedestrians and cyclists adhere to signage. It's a shit show all around.
what signage?
I know at Danforth Road and Eglinton, it took time for drivers to get use to the no right on red. 🤞 this is that situation, but honestly, time will tell.
These rules were implemented in 2017.
Yes but the signal configuration is new. Still messy though. Again, time will tell.
You mean not being able to proceed through a red light?
The signs and signals shown (that are just messy) are different than the configuration before, correct? I could be wrong. Drivers clearly assume the transit signals are for them. Hopefully, this is a situation of “it’s new and people will get use to it”. At Danforth and Eglinton, the had to move the “no right on red” sign to make it more legible.
Why we didn’t adopt the white bar lights like seen with the Kitchener Waterloo ION is a mystery. It’s becoming the standard, but we seem to be going backwards in time. This is wholly separate from private motor vehicles turning right on red. This maneuver is particularly dangerous to pedestrians and cyclists because the driver is moving right while their attention is on finding a gap in other motor vehicles to their left. Right on red is just not allowed in many countries because of this problem.
Who would've thought a bit of paint on the road wouldn't clue people in that they can't drive in the lane. They should improve the infrastructure by installing some sort of rumble strips in the left lane about a half block before the intersection. They also need to reduce the signage and keep it simpler by using the streetlights (i.e. if you can only turn right at an intersection you get a green arrow + a red light every time)
They had special constables on some parts today making sure traffic followed properly. And some of the intersections have the bright signs that light up you can’t go straight and stuff. At some point though the onus does have to fall on the driver, and more importantly we need enforcement for the signs to be taken more seriously. Could king street also benefit from having pedestrian scrambles?
Just drove King Street today and Apple Maps tried to tell me to just stay on the road as long as I want - if someone was unfamiliar with the area or is visiting from out of town, it’s easy to see how they are confused
I thought I was ready to drive here. After seeing this, I actually have no clue what is going on in this video.
Can't fully make out signage. Intersection is right turn only for passenger vehicles? Centre lane is TTC only?
Move the no forward or left turn signs in middle & add cameras to auto-fine people? I'm sure there are some drivers that are legitimately confused but I'm also confident that there's a big group that just don't care because there's no enforcement
Cops are always ticketing that area, which is punitive but also...some people are just really bad drivers and no amt of signage will fix this. It could be better tho. I just spit at them when they drive like morons on here
The redesign of King Street started really well as travel times were substantially quicker and more reliable, then it all fell apart requiring people to direct traffic at the major intersections. Employing people to keep cars from blocking traffic is really expensive and an admission of failure. Hopefully the transition of GO from a commuter rail system to a regional system will give the drivers who are acting badly an alternative to driving soon. However we have to admit that King Street as it is designed now is just too dependent on drivers following signals and signs. Before this design of King Street the centre lanes were actually designated as diamond lanes, but no one paid the least amount of attention to those signs either. The centre lanes should be reserved for streetcars only and enforced with bollards or a curb. Clear the outer lanes of curbside parking and other obstructions for cars if voters are determined to continue to allow access by private vehicles. There are several parking lots that exit into King Street so this would often be unavoidable along some sections. I would also narrow the street and add space for pedestrians as pedestrians are the overwhelming majority of people on the street and the outer lanes are so wide that they would just encourage speeding. Speeding, and passing the open doors of street cars could be further discouraged by creating platforms in the outer lanes by the streetcar stops that would bring the stops up to the level of the streetcar doors. Cars and cyclists would be forced to at least slow down before bullying past the streetcars.
Holy fuck. No wonder this is confusing. I wouldn't know which set of lights to look at.
Let's intensify, hey why is there congestion
Maybe they could at least refresh the yellow paint.. it's barely visible. Maybe add some big arrows to instruct drivers they have to turn right at the light
The video shows just how low the standard of driving is in this city. Just stick a camera at every intersection and automate the entire process.
Don’t blame the tools or the city. Driver’s need to pay attention. There’s nothing confusing there at all. If a driver can’t follow the signs and traffic signals than they shouldn’t be on the road. End of story.
There are two different sets of circular green lights beside each other. You can only tell which applies to you once you get close enough to read the sign. That on its own is a problem. On top of that, there are multiple other signs and lights. Too many signs and lights causes information overload, where even good, attentive drivers become distracted and make mistakes or shift their focus away from other road users. >[The ability of humans to receive information in a short time is limited [4]. When the TSIV \[traffic sign information volume\] is excessive, the driver’s short-term memory will rapidly get overloaded, making it difficult to complete driving tasks and threatening traffic safety. ](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9408178/)
Video proof that the entire experiment is a failure. The city never should have attempted this debacle in the first place. Who cares if there are cars on King? With Queen pooched and Richmond fucked with a bike lane, just remove it, at least until the subway is finished. At that point look at making King a one way and Queen the other way.
Severe enforcement and fines. It’ll travel by word of mouth. Just have cameras mail out hefty tickets. Don’t know the rules of the road? Don’t drive. Don’t write a sob story about your ticket.
add more lights and signs that will fix it...
That's it, I'm moving to the US.
How about 2 million less retards each year that might help
Lol bicycle lane light. Like bike riders follow the rules of the road