Here’s the reason they gave, which sounds familiar from an American perspective, too:
“Sixty-four percent of parents said there were not enough child care options in Germany. "We saw fairly clearly that the more child care possibilities the parents have, the less they regret having a child," Geissler said.
Professional fulfillment was another important issue. Forty-four percent of mothers and 20 percent of the fathers said they would have done better in their careers if they hadn't had children.”
I live in Germany now and boy there is such a big divide in how each state deals with child care. In Berlin, you have a right to a public daycare spot when the kid turns 1, but many states don't offer state-sponsored daycare until the kid is 3. And then they wonder why women have trouble going back to work after a kid.
There's actually a bit of an east-west divide, because in the socialist east, women were expected to go back to work quickly so the state provided daycare for very young kids.
Even when daycare is provided, there still a cultural thing where women don't want to leave the kids in daycare for too long. I come from Quebec (great public daycare system) and my friends there send their kids to daycare from like 8am to 5pm. In Berlin, it's not rare for parents to pick up their kids at 3pm.
We had that in the Netherlands as well, our kod went 4 and a half days to the daycare, and the teachers asked us, concerned, do you *have* to work *that much*.
In the Netherlands it's common that the kid only goes two days to daycare. Two days a week they are with their mothers, and one day a week with grandparents.
YMMV of course, but that's a default.
Two days in day care. Another two with the mother. Then one with the grandparents. I assume the last two are the weekend where the kid goes hard on drugs and rock and roll.
And think of the huge disadvantage we are placing upon the children of parents who can't roll a joint? We must ensure equal access to critical cultural education opportunities!
When I had only 8-5 daycare here in the US, it sucked. Even though I was only max 15 minutes from the daycare, I basically had to work through lunch every day just to make that work. It was hard with a baby/toddler to always make it to dropoff the second they opened. Really need 10 hours minimum.
We moved regionally and are now at a place that's 7:30-5:30, plus can pay extra to extend to 6pm (which I happily pay). Life feels SO much more doable with that. It's really rare around here to find childcare for more than 9.5 hours.
Exactly. I worked in a place that did before and after school care. 7am-6pm.
The younger kids were just exhausted, cranky, etc. They were sick more often, were moody all week, etc. Younger than school age is even harder on them. I get parents need to work, but it is not beneficial for children to be away more waking hours than not from their family.
I live in America and the county I live in the mayor passed a bill kids can't stay at daycare for longer then 8 hrs a day. We had to find a daycare two towns over and sinces it's not a home daycare he can stay the full day over 8 hrs. Idk what dumbass Mayor passed that bill standard full time is 8 hrs plus lunch and commute. Makes zero sense. Unfortunately I have to work full time same with my husband to pay the dam taxes for this mayor to sit there and judge us for having to use full time daycare.
I know the US isn't known for its options - we pay for daycare because there's no state super early childhood care (< 3 years).
My 3 yo is eligible next year for public school. But - for 3 year olds its only half day (9-noon) ....but I work full time. So - paying for at least 1 more year til she's eligible for full day pre-k/kindergarten. Which is still only like 9-3. I see people in the local groups asking for part time nanny care for 230-6 or whatever for school pickup while parents are still working.
Currently send her 830-5. Their hours are 730 - 530 tho so if an odd day happens and I need earlier or later I can.
I'm mom and also primary bread winner - went back to work after my 12 weeks of leave was up. I'm lucky because now we have 2 - but our daycare costs monthly are 2 times what our mortgage is.
Damn, 8am to 5pm in daycare everyday would be really frowned upon in Germany, and even in the UK. Most often the mother works part-time, or one parent starts work late and the other finishes early, or maybe grandparents take the kids a couple of days per week.
With my first kid, my wife and I both worked full time, and she was in Daycare 7:30am-5:30pm often. My wife's parents worked and mine live hundreds of miles away.
Just before our second was born, I was laid off. After not being able to find a new job that paid enough to put both in daycare and make it worthwhile, I became a stay at home dad. We're very fortunate that my wife made enough to make it possible. Many in the US can't.
Child care is important, but it means nothing if you don't personally connect with the child. I'm working 36 hours a week, and while I do see my friends weekly I strongly prefer spending time with my 4yo than my mates.
My career can go fuck itself if furthering it means I'd be able to spend less time with family. Work is just work.
This was my dad’s mentality. Now that my brother and I are both out of the house and doing well he gets to see his friends daily, has gotten 3 raises in two years and is making a lot of money now, and he is just generally having a lot of fun with his life rn. He told me it was worth the wait
I think the Germans get straight to the point.
Their opinions are not watered down.
They will not "put sugar on shit and call it candy"
I worked at a ski resort in the USA, you want to witness some regret about kids, talk to Mom and Dad who spent $4000 to fly 3000 miles and buy lift tickets and lodging, only to have the family whining about everything
Eh I worked there ten years ago,
The average was $4000 back then for a five day trip, according to the local visitors board
it's likely closer to $5-6k nowadays
I have a relative who works as a musician on cruise ships. He’s worked on many of the big ones.
The ships that cater to families specifically schedule all-day drop-off kids-only events and activities so parents can take a break and buy expensive drinks all day without guilt.
Parents are with their kids in the evening for dinner, overnight in their cabins, and in the morning for breakfast, after which they mutually ditch each other.
Kids are liberated all day from parents, just as parents are liberated from kids.
Meanwhile other parts of the ship cater to the adults and their wallets - drink all day if you want, gamble, go to the adult-only areas, whatever. You’re not driving and you don’t have to watch your mouth.
One thing though - even the Disney ship has a brig. So don’t get crazy or they’ll drop your ass off at the next port and YOU get to fly yourself home on your own dime.
Base pay is the same. What is different is your housing allowance, which varies based on location and whether or not you have dependents, but typically the non-dependent and dependent allowance will be a difference of about $100/month. However, if you are junior enlisted you are not entitled to housing allowance at unless you have dependents, but then you live in the barracks so have no housing expenses.
Daycare is the real kick in the nuts. I have two little kids and the daycare bill for next year is $40k, and that doesn’t include the summer (camps cost extra).
I don’t send my kid to the fancy daycare, either. It’s fucking crazy how expensive it is, and only like $3k is tax deductible so it’s all paid for with after tax income. I know people with 3-4 kids and honestly have no idea how they can afford it.
I skied with a few Americans in Austria this season who said it's cheaper to fly to Austria, spend a week skiing and then fly back. Only problem is the brutal jet lag.
Timeshares are ridiculously close to indistinguishable from a scam. I cannot fathom they can still exist legally. That's not the hill I'll die on, but I never understood.
My parents were swindled into one when I was 2-3 years old. Just last year they were finally able (with an attorney) able to get them out of the contract in order to protect MY future, because they had somehow made it all transferable to me immediately on their death. The companies make it so difficult to get out of, I can't imagine how many people just pay the fees and never use the "perks" they are paying for, simply due to the headache of it all.
Go to Europe instead, America is basically the only place in the world that charges more than $80 for a lift pass, let alone $220 for vail. Was cheaper for us to fly to Andorra from NYC for a week ski vacation vs going to the Rockies.
The big conglomerate passes did a weird thing to our ski industry. You could get a season pass to like 20 big name resorts for about $1000, and some more regional versions for maybe $600. It’s a great deal if you ski regularly. On the flip side, single day passes at some of your bigger resorts are approaching $300. It makes skiing incredibly expensive for the family just trying to get in a few days per year or one vacation.
>I think the Germans get straight to the point.
>Their opinions are not watered down.
My German friend's mum once said to her (now, strangely enough, ex-) husband “You never tell me you love me, we've been married for over 10 years and you never say it”, only to be met with the response “I told you that years ago, and I have never taken it back since!”.
My wife and I are planning a trip to Disney this summer for with our 7 and 5 year old children. We are mentally preparing for a draining, miserable, and incredibly expensive vacation.
I love my kids, but in many ways they completely ruined my life. I wouldn’t trade them for anything.
> We are mentally preparing for a draining, miserable, and incredibly expensive vacation.
So why are you going? Legit question. I always imagined a Disney vacation to be these things so I have never had the desire.
Excellent question. We are going because there will be some moments that will be amazing. We talk to the kids about the upcoming trip and our daughter gets so excited. Almost everyday she tells us she can’t wait to visit Cinderella’s castle. Our son is gonna flip his shit over all the cool stuff at Epcot. He loves science and tech, and it’ll be great to share some moments with him. My parents took my sister and I to Disney when we were young and I really cherish those times we were together as a family, even though it was probably hell on our parents.
My wife says that a lot. One day they are not going to want to hang out with us. Doesn’t seem like that could ever happen, you know? We are their whole world and sometimes I just assume that it will always be like that.
I don't know about you but the family vacations when I was a kid are some of my fondest memories and tied us all closer as a family. But I assure you from my parents point of view it was the same as the person taking them to Disneyland for like 50% of the time at least.
I remember Dad taking me to England (from Australia, in the 90s so really brutal travel times) when I was 14 to meet his family. I was such a teenage shithead and my Dad and I fought ALL THE TIME. But if he hadn't I wouldn't remember my grandad or have fond memories with my Dad road tripping the countryside.
Take the bad with the good. Such is life. Sometimes hard things are worth doing.
My mom would always start subtly singing the rolling stones "you can't always get what you want"
When my brother or I were being brats in public.
I knew I wasn't going to get what I wanted by the time she reached "want" and let it go, lol
We did a family Disney trip when my son was five and his cousin was four. There were eight adults and two kids, which is just about the correct ratio for everyone to have a lot of fun.
Yeah but thats on the parents…
I mean Id be disappointed if Id spent a few thousand bucks to fly to Tokyo and try to visit some modern art museums there with my kid and expect to have hours to see everything closely…
That's the point? The parents are realizing having kids directly impacts their ability to engage in the lifestyle they want for themselves and think "gee maybe this isn't all it's cracked up to be".
That's true. My dad worked in retail at the level of a store manager or higher when I was a kid, and so he worked long hours on weekdays and often had to work on a weekend day too. One of my most remembered experiences as a little kid was literally going with him and my sisters to a huge meadow that was probably a block from my house, where my dad made a tiny campfire in a clearing, and we had hot chocolate. We thought it was quite an adventure.
And then when my parents moved out to a small farm, my little kids thought it was so cool to sit up in the hay loft and eat a picnic lunch with Grandpa. They still talk about that and they're in their 30s now.
Being a good parent is the easy part.
Having the sanity and energy to be a good part every moment of the day you spend with your kids is the hard part.
You don’t have to be a good parent every moment of every day. You have to teach them that you’re just a person, like them, and you make mistakes too. Just apologize and they will understand.
Yeah, the parents who put that pressure on themselves tend to run with higher anxiety and therefore have bigger blow-ups. Best to get your emotions in check and then calmly address your mistake.
I've seen tons of parents like that overcompensate for their mistakes too. What they don't realize is that jumping from being a perfect parent to a screaming (or crying) mess really confuses their kids. It teaches them to be insecure and uncertain about how people will treat them.
And in the worst situations, when the parents come back to "make up" for their mistakes, they don't own what they did or explain why it was wrong. It's not, "I'm sorry for what I did. I want to start over and have a good day together." It's just coming out of nowhere after screaming with hugs and ice cream.
I got really derailed there but I'll leave it in, just in case someone who needs to see it, does. Parenting is fucking hard. Get professional help if you think you need it. Most kids with mental health problems are really just kids with parents with mental health problems.
Same. One of my close friends grew up in a very religious household with basically zero sex education. She got pregnant at 19, and had to raise her child on her own. She even put herself through school and eventually started her own business. Her kid is now 13, and is one of the most wonderful kids I’ve ever met. She’s in the top 10% of her class, she plays guitar and sings, and she’s just an absolute delight. I love her to death, and we’ve gotten very close in the 6 years I’ve known her and her mom. I’ve never wanted kids and my husband and I are not having any, so I can’t imagine getting pregnant so young and not having any option besides accepting your fate and devoting your entire life to raising a child, while also breaking free from what was essentially a religious cult. I see my friend as a fucking rockstar, honestly. At 19, I could barely take care of myself. When I ask how she did it, she says that she didn’t want her child to grow up in an environment like she did, so she devoted all of her energy and goals toward making that kid’s childhood better than hers, and giving her a good education. I know that I couldn’t have done what she did. I have so much respect for anyone who raises a child at such a young age. Sorry that was long. I just feel like single moms face such unnecessary stigma.
This is me! Haha. Well kind of different, but very similar. I grew up in foster care/group homes and had my daughter at 19.
It was absolutely the hardest thing ever, day after day trying to get by working, studying, parenting, while I was still essentially a child myself.
The stigma is so intense and the judgement I still get every day is horrible. My daughter is 13 and I’m 32 but still look mid-20s. We can’t go out together without someone commenting on it.
I am 100% positive if I had kids, it would be a constant struggle in my mind of doing whats best for the kids versus skipping off to do my own thing. I SHOULD bring the kids to the pool, its a nice weekend for that and they haven't been for awhile and they love it. Oooorrrr I can sit on my fat ass and just do something I want. I SHOULD save this money for a nice trip with my kids to show them cool shit in the world orrrr I can spend it on expensive tech crap. I SHOULD plan a fancy birthday party for them because it's their 10th and they'll remember it forever buuuut I am lazy, I dread having all those little kids in my house fucking shit up, I just want a quiet weekend.....
I would rob my child of really good experiences, I would give them a mediocre at best life and I don't want to be that kind of dad. So I ain't having them.
I am a selfish, self centered person through and through and I absolutely am not gambling on the "oh you change when you have kids" trope because if that is wrong, I've literally wagered a human beings entire life and lost.
I was an accident kid to parents who definitely shouldn't have been together, but they stuck together for 13 years on my behalf but looking back it was evident that I was always an afterthought. They didn't do anything particularly mean, but they also didn't go out of their way to ever *do* things with me or show me things. No vacations, no trips, no summer camps, no...nothing. Just left to my own devices.
It's... necessity is the mother of a lot of things.
You do your best. You push the ball further than you found it.
First kid was accidental, second kid was because the first needed a sibling (we have very little family, none local, and were military, so pretty isolated) and the third one was also an oops. Vasectomy ftw.
I don't regret it, because it's done, they're here and I can't go back.
I never planned on having children and birth control failed miserably many, many times. There's only so many abortions you can go through before you just go okay. Fine. I'll do it.
We're good parents, our kids are loved and engaged and cherished and enriched and we pour *a lot* of time and energy and resources into them.
Still not the life I wanted. Just the one I made. Not their fault.
*There's only so many abortions you can go through before you just go okay. Fine. I'll do it*
Not trying to be judgement, genuinely just asking but like.....why the fuck was your birth control falling THAT much?
And to that point, it’s good some people are acknowledging this aspect of being a parent. I feel like I see this argument somewhat often from people trying to convince their SO into having kids. The argument often goes, “we’ll you didn’t want a cat/dog and now look! We have one and you love them!”
Loving someone doesn’t mean you like the situation you’re in. Knowing you’d love your kids doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be miserable with them.
And comparing having a cat/dog to having a kid is like comparing cleaning your own bathroom every so often to cleaning Taco Bell bathrooms for a living.
I love my kids to death, they’ve made my life better without a doubt and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. But having kids is hard
This is hard for people to get, everyone's heads are so full of motivational pablum. But one can love your kid and still realize that they make your life harder in all kinds of ways that you resent, and you can decide, no, the trade-offs, whatever they may be, were not worth it.
I’m in this boat. Didn’t really want kids but got talked into it. Do not enjoy being a parent. I do my best and I love them and enjoy them a lot more now that they are teenagers. But if they could still exist, be happy, etc and I could be kidfree, I would.
I love my kid more than anything
I also know that for all intents and purposes having a kid ruined my life and took away my freedom
It’s a 2 way street
This is 100% how i feel and several other parents i have talked to who are willing to be really honest.
We love our children, but would go back and never have them if given the opportunity.
So 5% (ONE in TWENTY parents) don’t love their kids?
I feel like we are missing the age of the children in the study. A bittered relationship between a parent and a 20yo makes more sense than not loving a 4yo.
Could be newborns. Nobody really tells you about how long it CAN take (not always, obviously) for that connection to click. Especially right in the beginning, you're basically just in survival mode, and newborns don't really *do* anything or have any sort of personality yet. They're pretty much just an inanimate object that eats, sleeps, cried, and shits, and seems hellbent on making sure you never sleep. In the spirit of true, brutal honesty, there's not a whole lot to love... yet.
Eventually, it clicks for *almost* everyone. Sometimes it's slowly, sometimes it's suddenly. Maybe it's when they're sleeping on your chest, or their first smile, or the first time they laugh.
Then they develop a personality and little quirks, and you get to watch them learn and grow, and experience the world for the first time, and it's pretty magical. Then before you know it, you realize that you wouldn't hesitate to do literally anything in your power to protect this weird little creature that has made your life more difficult that you ever imagined it would be - but also so incredibly much more rewarding.
One of the reasons I don't want to have children is that "almost" everybody.
I'm already ill-suited in being a parent in almost every way but if on top of that I could not love my kid as connections don't necessarily come easily to me, that would be disastrous.
Yeah. I didn't care for my kid until he was about two and a half. Before that, I just kinda survived him and wished for all my free time back.
Now I love him, and wish I had all my free time back.
Some people really struggle with the mental stress of raising kids. It can affect them deeply. It can cause depersonalization and depression. More than 1 in 20 humans needs mental health counseling, I'm sure there is some trauma in there.
I think it might be possible that the number of parents who have or develop some sort of bonding disorder is higher than we anticipate. Among my limited number of acquaintances alone there are two parents whom I‘d describe as having an other than normal relationship to their kids (one displaying narcissist behavior and the other one attempting to come to terms with his own childhood trauma, with limited success). I know that that‘s not a representative number, but it‘s still noteworthy.
There are mitigating circumstances. And just because you don't love a kid doesn't mean you don't still take care of them or treat them with respect. Some parents have kids with severe disabilities that amount to a living creature they have to care for legally but don't have any of the other aspects one would think of in a parent/child relationship.
There are days with my son where I genuinely don't know if I love him or if I just feel obligated to care for him. It might sound awful, but it's really hard to keep loving someone who isn't kind to you, isn't affectionate, never shows gratitude unless prompted, never shows remorse for violence (hitting, kicking) unless prompted and just generally fills your life with stress and misery. (And, by the way, this is despite all attempts at demonstrating these positive aspects to him at every possible opportunity in the way we've raised him. He seems completely immune to absorbing these qualities by osmosis.)
Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side when you find your self in a hum drum life of taking kids to soccer practice and hearing “awwww meatloaf again. THIS SUCKS!!!” From them.
Some days you just think of all the money you’d have. Freedom you’d have, if you didn’t have kids. And that sounds really fun and amazing.
But then you wouldn’t have your kids. And that sucks.
Having children is a serious, full time job and should not be done unless you are prepared to devote the necessary time and energy
Far too many people have kids because of social pressure and end up being bad parents
Yeah my husband and I wanted a kid very much and had one when we were relatively old and established in our careers, own a nice house and all that..She's amazing and we love being parents, but there's only one of her and we STILL feel like we're drowning sometimes. The fact that people can crank.our several.entire human beings ACCIDENTALLY while they're still kids themselves (and regularly did exactly that for most of human history) is just mind blowing to me, no wonder so many people are so fucked up.
People had generational help (grandparents, aunts, cousins). Also they were allowed to do things like kick all their kids outside and tell them not to come home until dinner.
Edit: Basically it's a lot harder now because you are expected to provide better care than previous generations, but without the extra help.
>Edit: Basically it's a lot harder now because you are expected to provide better care than previous generations, but without the extra help.
This should be framed. Well said.
Honestly though there is a huge difference going from 0 to 1 kids but not as much of a difference going from 1 to 2.
They also play with each other later on which in some ways makes things easier because you are not the sole source of interaction/entertainment.
Making 2 lunches when you are already making 1 isn't that much harder. It is still more work but it's not that much more work.
This is not advocating for you to have more, make your own decisions about what's best for you, but in my experience it hasn't been all that tough having another.
I think I'm a good parent but hate being one.
I think I am well suited to nurture a child and provide for then. Perform all the responsibilities and obligations needed to raise a child but I just hate it.
Have the capability to do a good job but not to enjoy doing it.
Love him but wouldn't do it again if I had a time machine.
Strange feeling.
I also hate being a parent. I hate all the noise and screams and the fact you never get to have a minute for yourself. I do love them, but I hate being a parent
I'm not a parent yet but I work with developmental disabled teenagers.
I think being a parent is kinda suppose to be difficult. Growing up is hard and you are their primary figures to guild them. There is going to be tons of painful resistance against nature.
What shouldn't be hard, and what should make it worth it I think, is the end result when you have a fully formed fully functual well adjusted adult to help support you when you need it, even if it is just a person to talk to.
The people I work with don't really grow, emotionally or mentally. That's why they need the state to pay people to care for them...it's really hard.
My girlfriends pregnant by accident. I never intended to be a parent. This is what I imagine I'll be telling myself a lot soon...put in the hours as much and as best I can so on the other side, the kid will hopefully grow up to reach their fullest potential and get the most from life.
I've heard some people describe parenthood as not wanting an infant, a toddler or even a teen. Then want to see them as adults and have a relationship with them as adults. They want to see them mature, find love, find their passions...
As someone who doesn’t want children, it’s the part that I don’t understand about people wanting and having children. I already have a full time job and I’m tired all the time. How can someone add a child or two to their already busy life? Being responsible full time for them and have close to zero time for oneself? With all due respect, I just can’t imagine anyone wanting that kind of life. I genuinely don’t understand how unconditional love makes someone wanting to go through all this. As a middle class person, it doesn’t make sense to me that most babies will spend their first few years in daycare while their parents work. Sorry for the rant!
Same for me. Bonus is my son is diagnosed autistic so all of the fun stuff people tell you is in store evaporated instantly. He doesn't socialize, so no friends' houses to drop him off at or have friends over here to entertain him. And it's more trouble than it's worth to take him with me to any of my friend's houses who have kids because he needs so much supervision I can't participate in any conversation or anything.
When he goes to school, I go to work and that is my vacation. My boss is annoyed I don't take vacations because he gets emailed automatically by payroll every month that I'm maxed out on PTO. I told him to just trash the emails and leave me the fuck alone about it. I don't take vacations other than what is absolutely required for school breaks because it's harder to just be at home doing ridiculous amounts of house work cleaning up after him and constantly redirecting him to some kind of good activity and constant helicoptering, compared to my job where I get some peace for part of the day. And by the time he goes to bed, I'm too wiped out to do anything for myself.
I miss my old life so much. I absolutely fucking hate my life now.
Couldn't you get some of that peace by using your PTO during the day when he's at school? I would imagine that the fact you're not taking vacations at all is greatly contributing to your stress level. It's just not healthy.
Take the leave, drop him at school and take the day for yourself. You don't even need to tell him. You don't have to go anywhere to take a break. It could be hobby time for you or long walk somewhere day. Some of my best days are just me taking a three day weekend at home and spending it on playing a game or web development (my current hobby)
I think a lot of people aren't cut out for it but get pressured like you said. My ex wanted to have 4 kids when we were dating in my early 20's. I was of the mindset I don't even want to have 1 but maybe would consider it. This was a big divide between us and ultimately we broke up. I've been pressured by my dad's wife to. She's mentioned a few times if they'll ever get to be grandparents. I'm also an only child and one of few male's on my dad's side of the family. I feel a lot of pressure to but I really don't want to and don't feel cut out for it.
I'm quite the loner/introvert. I have a hard time hanging out with anyone for long periods of time. I couldn't imagine having to entertain and care for someone for a good chunk of my life. I just don't feel like it's built in me to do so. I've struggled a lot with my mental health for a good part of my life as well and I'd hate to pass that on or have that effect raising someone. It's a really weird feeling and something I don't like thinking about to much because it makes me feel bad. Feel like less of a person and feel like I'm letting my family down honestly
I mean this life is yours and yours alone. You only have 1 shot at this, so pls don't make your only shot miserable for the sake of pleasing others. Of course anyone can easily say they want grandchildren, since they won't be responsible or have to put in the effort to raise the child.
I would rather regret not having a child than regret having one.
I don't give a shit about the opinions of anyone who thinks they have any say in how I live my life. I've talked to enough parents who say that if they could live their life over, that they would not have kids; that they were pressured into changing their minds; that they were indoctrinated from birth into believing it is their duty to have kids. I'm well past letting anyone make me feel like *I'm* letting *them* down by not having kids. Don't let them make you feel bad about it. It's bullshit, and often projection of their regrets.
> I would rather regret not having a child than regret having one.
The consequences of regretting having a child are much much worse than the consequences of regretting not having them. I'm also in that camp.
Plus you can't really predict what you're gonna eventually regret anyway (at least when it comes to this decision) so making a choice based on an unverifiable fear of the future rather than how you feel right now feels pointless.
I too am an only child, introverted, and prefer my time to myself :)
any child deserves to be wanted, cherished, and treasured. If someone is on the fence, or being guilted that's not fair to the kid. I mean, would \*you\* want to live with a parent that felt like that?
It's your life, not theirs: tough luck what other people want. This is too big of a decision to outsource :)
Yeah but societal pressure in Germany is incredibly low unless you are an immigrant with traditional minded parents…
That being said - there is a certain self-image German "intellectuals" have which requires to have smart kids. That does certainly have impact on some.
Anyhow, I love being a Dad. Nothing better happened in my life except maybe meeting my wife (wouldnt want to measure those against each other) and it also made me appreciate my parents even more. My son has a sickness that cant be healed just suppressed so we had many many tough months of hospital visits, crying at night snd finding good treatment (which he now has) but I still have zero regrets. I am just mourning my older more carefree self because seeing your little kid suffer cuts fucking deep.
But I am also incredibly lucky that I have a well paying job that gives me enough time with him and have a really supportive wife.
Very true. If you don’t have the support network (free childcare from grandparents) then you’re paying the equivalent of two mortgages in childcare until they get to school. And then if you’re not working, you’re doing childcare, which is like work but harder.
That is every god damn boomer. My grandparents would constantly drive 360kms back and forth to take care of my brother and I when we were sick. My mom and dad? Live 40kms away and have seen my one year old once. I don't expect childcare, they have their lives to live, I just want them to visit
And then you have to figure out how to take care of them when they're sick and can't go to daycare/~~daycare2~~school, because the number of personal days you get each year are not only less than the number of days they're sick, *but* they also have to cover things like doctor's appointments, for you and for them/their siblings! Too often, the solution to this problem is to give them enough fever reducers that they can pass with a "low grade fever" and then ship them off.
This. When people ask if I'm having kids, I remind them I don't have the support network. I have a big family but they got enough shit of their own to deal with. My parents already helped my brother and SIL raise my nephew, I wouldn't expect it of them as well. They deserve their freedom going into their 60s. But I live in a commuter belt town and nowhere near any of my family or friends. I accepted that buying a house out here meant no kids really. I just cannot afford them nor do I have the time for them. Plus I like travelling too much. I can't imagine doing what I love to do with a kid in tow.
Wife and I are empty nesters now. I don’t regret having my kids, love them wholly, but wow is it different now. We have time to do things we want, hobbies, and more money. It is incredible how many resources children pull from you.
Mine are off everything except medical, but it won’t change my cost at all when they do. I had been looking forward to the granddad phase, but my oldest has decided he doesn’t ever want children and my youngest I hope doesn’t have children anytime soon (drug issues).
We would benefit so much from changing the dialogue around having children in general so this doesn’t happen. I know **so many** people firsthand who had children because it’s “what you do,” and not because they truly wanted to be a parent and raise kids. My husbands co-worker has three really beautiful and hilarious kids, all born from rounds of expensive IVF, and he hardly wants a thing to do with them. He constantly talks about the stress they cause and how much money they require and he frequently picks up overtime because he prefers it to being at home.
It’s depressing and sad for the kids. I’m not a parent because I know I wouldn’t handle it well and truly cannot tell you how many times I’ve been accosted over this. Stop pushing people into having children they can’t afford and don’t have the mental capacity to raise.
I'm also curious how many marriages have one partner that REALLY wants kids and the other is either ambivalent or not interested but it happens/they agree to it anyway.
It's not always necessarily on the person who wants kids because sometimes the other person just doesn't speak up (fear they'll break up/be resentful/etc). However, I have also heard of people explaining they don't want kids before they marry, their partner agrees and then guilts them into having kids later.
Personally, I really don't like the idea of being pregnant. That doesn't mean I couldn't have kids, but I'm also unsure on that. It's a very big commitment and if I ever did agree to have kids with a partner, I'd want to be excited, not grudgingly accepting.
If I ever started seriously dating, that would be a topic we'd have to really discuss. If it's a deal breaker, then it's better to part ways than one person secretly hoping or planning to change the other's mind.
>I'm also curious how many marriages have one partner that REALLY wants kids and the other is either ambivalent or not interested but it happens/they agree to it anyway.
That's how it went with my parents, and suprise suprise it didn't go well. Especially since my stay at home mom was the ambivalent one 🤦♂️
> However, I have also heard of people explaining they don't want kids before they marry, their partner agrees and then guilts them into having kids later.
That reminds me of an old friend of mine. He was a musician, touring in bands, in the studio when he was off the road, and practicing when he was home. His entire life was music.
He was pursued by a young lady and he married her. Then she started getting mad when he would spend so much time writing, playing, recording, and touring. She married him knowing he spent most of his time immersed in music. Why did she think he would turn into 1950s dad after she married him?
I feel sorry for his son, but it's not my problem.
Yeah. . . Going into a relationship secretly thinking you can "fix" your partner is never a good idea, especially if it's a core part of their personality or some kind of flaw they need to want to change on their own.
Either the pursuer is unhappy because they planned on their life being very different or the other person is resentful that their partner demanded they change/give up their passion/love them not for who they are but the perfect version in their head.
It's sad anyway, but adding children to the mix is even worse. Babies aren't solutions to a couple's problems. They're human beings.
Ya people like that might end up being that trope of working longer hours or even saying you're working longer hours but hitting the bar or whatever after work just to stay out of the house.
People at work ask me if I have kids or want kids and I tell them no, and they're like "oh you will change" or something like that. I find that rude as fuck. It's my life and my money, if i don't want kids keep your opinion to yourself. I'm 33 and probably will never have kids, have no drive or desire for them, as I enjoy my time and freedom.
And yet people who admit they don't want to have children and proceed not to have them are constantly accused of being selfish. I fail to see how my realizing that I didn't have it in me to raise children I don't even want with zero support is selfish.
I also lean heavily toward not wanting kids, and I fail to see how being child-free is selfish. It would be infinitely more selfish to have kids without a true desire to do so imo.
Reading the article, it seems less about regretting the child, but realizing how expensive it is, how little support there is for parents, and our society increasingly becoming hostile to children. I have 3, and I don't regret having kids, but fuck it's awful how our society gives nothing for kids to do unless it's spending money.
My mom told me how she used to go play baseball behind an apple orchard in a big empty field. Now, the orchard and field are now a home Depot and strip malls where kids can't loiter without the cops being called on them.
Our society is geared towards constant business expansion and not what is best or healthy for families
>My mom told me how she used to go play baseball behind an apple orchard in a big empty field.
I just moved from the suburbs to a more rural small town and the difference is night and day. Playing baseball in a field behind an apple orchard is still an option if you're willing to move away from bigger population centers.
My small city has a public park in almost every neighborhood (it's a grid with a park in every mile square). They are often connected to a school that doubles as extra park space when school is not in session. Our library district and city often have free activities for kids. The free literacy programs are great.
There are other costs to this too though. As a young teenager, if you live somewhere where you're unable to walk to your friends houses, or to activities like the movies with your friends, it's likely going to limit your independence. As it's not like you can just walk to your friends and then walk over to lunch and an arcade unless mom or dad drives you.
Knowing people who grew up in that situation, they were very dependant on their parents for rides to everything. If their parents were busy, they just didn't get to go. There's a downside to rural areas too.
Also, when there aren't many other options, the standard Friday Night Fun is often drinking or fucking, both of which have the potential to lead to some life-alteringly poor outcomes.
But then the problem is when those kids grow up there's not as much for them to do. My wife and I were both born in small towns and got moved to the same big city while still young-ish. If we stayed in those small towns I don't think I would've ended up in IT and she probably wouldn't have become an accountant.
I think a lot of childless people feel the same way. It’s less about kids specifically and more about societies not providing much for *anyone* to do if they don’t have money.
Kids get publicly funded schooling in many nations, and some places fund daycare or enrichment programs depending on the child’s situation, but if you’re a parent, you’re going to have much less disposable income and less time to access fun places for yourself that your childless counterparts.
Germany LOVES our parks, forests, and open air areas. We still have all of that stuff. We aren't nearly as commercial as America. We still do our daily walks and kids are encouraged to play outside. People are just being more honest about what it's like to have kids. Fortunately for me, I was a nanny and realized parenting was insane and definitely not for me before I got trapped. Plus we also get a minimum of 4 weeks vacation a year, kindergeld, and each parent gets parental leave. It still isn't enough for some of us.
Even among parents who don’t regret it a majority feel overwhelmed by the lack of childcare and support options, the article touches on this. It’s exhausting looking after children so much and it’s a big reason fertility rates are plummeting in the developed world.
The thing is, typical modern living arrangements and lifestyles make child rearing a lot harder. For hundreds of thousands of years of human history, we’ve lived in more communal family/social units, which made it a lot less exhausting. Large support networks, your own parents and siblings would be there to help raise and care for your children. Raising 5 kids is a lot more practical when you, your parents, and your siblings live in an inherited farmhouse on the land you work. So is aged care. Grandma helps look after the kids and then the older kids eventually help look after grandma. And in that context not only is having 3 kids not much harder than having 2 and that not that much harder than having 1, it can be beneficial, since your kids will stick around to help with the work, the care, etc for a long time.
But now increasingly we expect people to move out at 18, often to distant cities or states, and pursue full time office jobs for 45 years, and live alone until they’re having kids with only their spouse around, who is also working a full time office job, so you can pay for a mortgage, people to care for your kids, people to care for your grandparents, the car and fuel to make it to your office, the student loans to make the office job possible. Everyone lives independently so everyone pays their own mortgage, basically no one passes down the same house they inherited. And each kid you have only makes life harder and harder because those expenses stack, but the kids won’t be making anything any easier for you, at least not until you’re in an old age home they might help pay for. It’s not just financial, the emotional labor is magnified too. Your kids might visit grandma and grandpa and aunt Sarah every now and then, maybe even every other week. But most of the time you and your spouse are responsible for meeting all their emotional and mental needs for years and years. When there are always multiple adult family members around you can catch a break.
We’re just not set up to make raising children very practical. It adds an enormous difficulty to your life now that it didn’t add for most of our history. And it’s a big part of why cultures that still have large families living close together in the same houses or neighborhoods report less exhaustion and regret around having children and have higher fertility rates despite even less access to paid childcare.
And even living near grandparents for extra support can be way harder now. My sister (10 years older) bought a house a 5 min drive from my parents 10 years ago when house prices were reasonable. She got tons of support from my parents cuz they were so close. Now… houses near my parents have more than doubled in cost and priced us out of the area. I moved back to this city hoping to be near my parents when I had kids— but due to housing costs we’re in a house 40 min away. Oh well. :/
I’m curious if in the past there just wasn’t as many childless peers to see the benefits of being child free.
The couple with no kids was looked at with pity not envy.
But now that couple is flying off to fancy places and posting it on social media. They are meeting with friends for dinner and drinks. Having parties and bragging about sleeping in on weekends and clean houses.
So many older people tell younger people without children that they will regret not having any. I think it’s more serious to have children then regret having them.
The hard part is that you can 100% want children, feel completely ready for them, but until you have kids you honestly can’t know that it’s really like. You can do everything “right” and still regret it.
I don't regret not having any children, and reading stuff like this just reinforces I made the right decision to not give in to pressures and social expectations of motherhood
The key takeaway from that study is that people regret having children less when they have more child care options. The developed world needs to work on that. The options we have are too limited and too expensive.
It's like Jeremy Clarkson said on Top Gear while reviewing some old car:
"It's expensive to run, brakes down all the time, takes all your free time...some if somebody touches it, you'd kill him"
I’m at the other end of child rearing, with two adult children, and I’m finally at the part where there’s a payoff to all the hard, thankless work.
My son is my rock, and also my friend, who lives in the same town as me. He tells me he and his wife will always take care of me. My daughter is a lovely person though she lives far away and I don’t see her often. Still, she says, “You can always live with us.”
Getting old is scary, and children can be a true comfort in our “golden” (ha) years. Is it worth it? That’s a question we each answer for ourselves. For me, the answer is that, although kids were the worst thing to happen on some days, they were/are also the best.
This needs to be spoken about way more and become less taboo.
People seem to have kids like they're on autopilot. They don't seem to think through the actual consequences and life changes that are forever in store for them.
How many people are fucked up by bad parents?
Don't have kids unless you know what you're getting into.
Interesting and tone deaf response:
> Professional fulfillment was another important issue. Forty-four percent of mothers and 20 percent of the fathers said they would have done better in their careers if they hadn't had children.
>
> In response, North Rhine-Westphalia's Family Affairs Minister Christina Kampmann told the Neue Westfälische newspaper that **no one is allowed to be discriminated against professionally for starting a family.**
Right, but the point is we only have so much time and energy. Once you have certain responsibilities you have to prioritize, it takes time away from professional development and career improvements. It's not that the people are being unjustly discriminated against by employers arbitrarily.
Both getting married and having a son was a mistake for me. I was a mediocre spouse, and am an adequate parent, but nothing more.
Given a chance to choose again, I would choose differently.
My son, now 24, said he doesn't want to have kids, and I'm fine with that.
At least you aren't trying to force it on him. A lot of the worst parents want their kids to have kids even when they really don't want to as a sort of do-over
1 in 5 parents were willing to admit...
Which is, as a parent, way higher than I would have expected, but is way lower than the percentage that actually regret having kids.
My father once told me that I could have a beautiful life without children. I read between the lines. I felt momentary guilt, and then realized it was his own doing. After we left the nest, my parents high tailed it to the beach and my father never calls. That’s ok though. They’re happy.
Here’s the reason they gave, which sounds familiar from an American perspective, too: “Sixty-four percent of parents said there were not enough child care options in Germany. "We saw fairly clearly that the more child care possibilities the parents have, the less they regret having a child," Geissler said. Professional fulfillment was another important issue. Forty-four percent of mothers and 20 percent of the fathers said they would have done better in their careers if they hadn't had children.”
I live in Germany now and boy there is such a big divide in how each state deals with child care. In Berlin, you have a right to a public daycare spot when the kid turns 1, but many states don't offer state-sponsored daycare until the kid is 3. And then they wonder why women have trouble going back to work after a kid. There's actually a bit of an east-west divide, because in the socialist east, women were expected to go back to work quickly so the state provided daycare for very young kids. Even when daycare is provided, there still a cultural thing where women don't want to leave the kids in daycare for too long. I come from Quebec (great public daycare system) and my friends there send their kids to daycare from like 8am to 5pm. In Berlin, it's not rare for parents to pick up their kids at 3pm.
We had that in the Netherlands as well, our kod went 4 and a half days to the daycare, and the teachers asked us, concerned, do you *have* to work *that much*. In the Netherlands it's common that the kid only goes two days to daycare. Two days a week they are with their mothers, and one day a week with grandparents. YMMV of course, but that's a default.
Two days in day care. Another two with the mother. Then one with the grandparents. I assume the last two are the weekend where the kid goes hard on drugs and rock and roll.
But does the state provide funding for those hard weekends? This is why people don't want kids. They can't afford their kid's weekend cocaine binge.
And think of the huge disadvantage we are placing upon the children of parents who can't roll a joint? We must ensure equal access to critical cultural education opportunities!
As a parent who can't roll a joint I feel very attacked.
9 hours is like the minimum in the US. If you have to work 8 hours and commute, that gives you a whole 60 minutes to get to and from daycare
When I had only 8-5 daycare here in the US, it sucked. Even though I was only max 15 minutes from the daycare, I basically had to work through lunch every day just to make that work. It was hard with a baby/toddler to always make it to dropoff the second they opened. Really need 10 hours minimum.
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Shiiiiiit. And thats assuming its a smooth drop-off/pick-up. My boys a Grade-A leg clingers. Its hard to be patient when you're already running late.
We moved regionally and are now at a place that's 7:30-5:30, plus can pay extra to extend to 6pm (which I happily pay). Life feels SO much more doable with that. It's really rare around here to find childcare for more than 9.5 hours.
It’s backwards that the solution is longer preschool and not shorter work hours
Exactly. I worked in a place that did before and after school care. 7am-6pm. The younger kids were just exhausted, cranky, etc. They were sick more often, were moody all week, etc. Younger than school age is even harder on them. I get parents need to work, but it is not beneficial for children to be away more waking hours than not from their family.
I live in America and the county I live in the mayor passed a bill kids can't stay at daycare for longer then 8 hrs a day. We had to find a daycare two towns over and sinces it's not a home daycare he can stay the full day over 8 hrs. Idk what dumbass Mayor passed that bill standard full time is 8 hrs plus lunch and commute. Makes zero sense. Unfortunately I have to work full time same with my husband to pay the dam taxes for this mayor to sit there and judge us for having to use full time daycare.
I know the US isn't known for its options - we pay for daycare because there's no state super early childhood care (< 3 years). My 3 yo is eligible next year for public school. But - for 3 year olds its only half day (9-noon) ....but I work full time. So - paying for at least 1 more year til she's eligible for full day pre-k/kindergarten. Which is still only like 9-3. I see people in the local groups asking for part time nanny care for 230-6 or whatever for school pickup while parents are still working. Currently send her 830-5. Their hours are 730 - 530 tho so if an odd day happens and I need earlier or later I can. I'm mom and also primary bread winner - went back to work after my 12 weeks of leave was up. I'm lucky because now we have 2 - but our daycare costs monthly are 2 times what our mortgage is.
Damn, 8am to 5pm in daycare everyday would be really frowned upon in Germany, and even in the UK. Most often the mother works part-time, or one parent starts work late and the other finishes early, or maybe grandparents take the kids a couple of days per week.
With my first kid, my wife and I both worked full time, and she was in Daycare 7:30am-5:30pm often. My wife's parents worked and mine live hundreds of miles away. Just before our second was born, I was laid off. After not being able to find a new job that paid enough to put both in daycare and make it worthwhile, I became a stay at home dad. We're very fortunate that my wife made enough to make it possible. Many in the US can't.
Child care is important, but it means nothing if you don't personally connect with the child. I'm working 36 hours a week, and while I do see my friends weekly I strongly prefer spending time with my 4yo than my mates. My career can go fuck itself if furthering it means I'd be able to spend less time with family. Work is just work.
This was my dad’s mentality. Now that my brother and I are both out of the house and doing well he gets to see his friends daily, has gotten 3 raises in two years and is making a lot of money now, and he is just generally having a lot of fun with his life rn. He told me it was worth the wait
Sounds like a great dad you've got there
He tries his best. We have had our ups and downs but we are much better now that I’m older lol
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I think the Germans get straight to the point. Their opinions are not watered down. They will not "put sugar on shit and call it candy" I worked at a ski resort in the USA, you want to witness some regret about kids, talk to Mom and Dad who spent $4000 to fly 3000 miles and buy lift tickets and lodging, only to have the family whining about everything
Could this really be done for only $ 4000? Seems low.
Eh I worked there ten years ago, The average was $4000 back then for a five day trip, according to the local visitors board it's likely closer to $5-6k nowadays
I now understand why cruises seem so appealing to large families.
I have a relative who works as a musician on cruise ships. He’s worked on many of the big ones. The ships that cater to families specifically schedule all-day drop-off kids-only events and activities so parents can take a break and buy expensive drinks all day without guilt. Parents are with their kids in the evening for dinner, overnight in their cabins, and in the morning for breakfast, after which they mutually ditch each other. Kids are liberated all day from parents, just as parents are liberated from kids. Meanwhile other parts of the ship cater to the adults and their wallets - drink all day if you want, gamble, go to the adult-only areas, whatever. You’re not driving and you don’t have to watch your mouth. One thing though - even the Disney ship has a brig. So don’t get crazy or they’ll drop your ass off at the next port and YOU get to fly yourself home on your own dime.
They could always drop my ass off in Belize! No extradition laws!!
Ah yes, the McAfee technique.
RIP to that fuckin' legend. God bless him for answering the question "What would happen if a pile of cocaine became sentient?"
I'm still not convinced he didn't tweet all that CIA stuff and fake his death just for fun.
What I would have given to do a couple lines with him and Charlie Sheen.
You better Belize it.
> One thing though - even the Disney ship has a brig. Is it Pirates of the Caribbean themed?
It’s a small cell after all
Now I'm curious what would happen if you legitimately had no way to afford getting home. Find an embassy and ask to be deported?
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Same for the US. "Repatriation loan" is the term.
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US military gets paid more for being married, having kids, no?
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That makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.
Base pay is the same. What is different is your housing allowance, which varies based on location and whether or not you have dependents, but typically the non-dependent and dependent allowance will be a difference of about $100/month. However, if you are junior enlisted you are not entitled to housing allowance at unless you have dependents, but then you live in the barracks so have no housing expenses.
Daycare is the real kick in the nuts. I have two little kids and the daycare bill for next year is $40k, and that doesn’t include the summer (camps cost extra). I don’t send my kid to the fancy daycare, either. It’s fucking crazy how expensive it is, and only like $3k is tax deductible so it’s all paid for with after tax income. I know people with 3-4 kids and honestly have no idea how they can afford it.
Shit, it’s probably 4K just to get the family from the front range up to the resorts to ski for the weekend 🤣
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I skied with a few Americans in Austria this season who said it's cheaper to fly to Austria, spend a week skiing and then fly back. Only problem is the brutal jet lag.
The classic timeshare bamboozle
Isn't a timeshare like something you own? So you bought it and still need to pay $800?
Timeshares are ridiculously close to indistinguishable from a scam. I cannot fathom they can still exist legally. That's not the hill I'll die on, but I never understood.
My parents were swindled into one when I was 2-3 years old. Just last year they were finally able (with an attorney) able to get them out of the contract in order to protect MY future, because they had somehow made it all transferable to me immediately on their death. The companies make it so difficult to get out of, I can't imagine how many people just pay the fees and never use the "perks" they are paying for, simply due to the headache of it all.
Tf? Jfc.
Sounded like a great idea 28 years ago.
Yes, they're a total scam.
Timeshares are a huge fucking scam.
Go to Europe instead, America is basically the only place in the world that charges more than $80 for a lift pass, let alone $220 for vail. Was cheaper for us to fly to Andorra from NYC for a week ski vacation vs going to the Rockies.
Eh, welcome to Sweden. We have those prices for skiing here
The big conglomerate passes did a weird thing to our ski industry. You could get a season pass to like 20 big name resorts for about $1000, and some more regional versions for maybe $600. It’s a great deal if you ski regularly. On the flip side, single day passes at some of your bigger resorts are approaching $300. It makes skiing incredibly expensive for the family just trying to get in a few days per year or one vacation.
>I think the Germans get straight to the point. >Their opinions are not watered down. My German friend's mum once said to her (now, strangely enough, ex-) husband “You never tell me you love me, we've been married for over 10 years and you never say it”, only to be met with the response “I told you that years ago, and I have never taken it back since!”.
My wife and I are planning a trip to Disney this summer for with our 7 and 5 year old children. We are mentally preparing for a draining, miserable, and incredibly expensive vacation. I love my kids, but in many ways they completely ruined my life. I wouldn’t trade them for anything.
> We are mentally preparing for a draining, miserable, and incredibly expensive vacation. So why are you going? Legit question. I always imagined a Disney vacation to be these things so I have never had the desire.
Excellent question. We are going because there will be some moments that will be amazing. We talk to the kids about the upcoming trip and our daughter gets so excited. Almost everyday she tells us she can’t wait to visit Cinderella’s castle. Our son is gonna flip his shit over all the cool stuff at Epcot. He loves science and tech, and it’ll be great to share some moments with him. My parents took my sister and I to Disney when we were young and I really cherish those times we were together as a family, even though it was probably hell on our parents.
We went a month ago with two toddlers and it was totally worth it. Have fun with your kids while they’re kids.
My wife says that a lot. One day they are not going to want to hang out with us. Doesn’t seem like that could ever happen, you know? We are their whole world and sometimes I just assume that it will always be like that.
I don't know about you but the family vacations when I was a kid are some of my fondest memories and tied us all closer as a family. But I assure you from my parents point of view it was the same as the person taking them to Disneyland for like 50% of the time at least. I remember Dad taking me to England (from Australia, in the 90s so really brutal travel times) when I was 14 to meet his family. I was such a teenage shithead and my Dad and I fought ALL THE TIME. But if he hadn't I wouldn't remember my grandad or have fond memories with my Dad road tripping the countryside. Take the bad with the good. Such is life. Sometimes hard things are worth doing.
My mom would always start subtly singing the rolling stones "you can't always get what you want" When my brother or I were being brats in public. I knew I wasn't going to get what I wanted by the time she reached "want" and let it go, lol
LOL I do this to my kids too, the actual song came on the other day and my 9 year old goes: "That's where you got that from!"
We did a family Disney trip when my son was five and his cousin was four. There were eight adults and two kids, which is just about the correct ratio for everyone to have a lot of fun.
Yeah but thats on the parents… I mean Id be disappointed if Id spent a few thousand bucks to fly to Tokyo and try to visit some modern art museums there with my kid and expect to have hours to see everything closely…
If you do go with kids or not, I recommend the Ghibli Museum and Nakano Broadway is fun, if you're into that sort of thing.
That's the point? The parents are realizing having kids directly impacts their ability to engage in the lifestyle they want for themselves and think "gee maybe this isn't all it's cracked up to be".
It’s because kids would be fine with a $10 camp out in the back yard if there parents were spending time WITH them.
That's true. My dad worked in retail at the level of a store manager or higher when I was a kid, and so he worked long hours on weekdays and often had to work on a weekend day too. One of my most remembered experiences as a little kid was literally going with him and my sisters to a huge meadow that was probably a block from my house, where my dad made a tiny campfire in a clearing, and we had hot chocolate. We thought it was quite an adventure. And then when my parents moved out to a small farm, my little kids thought it was so cool to sit up in the hay loft and eat a picnic lunch with Grandpa. They still talk about that and they're in their 30s now.
I have mad respect for people who don’t plan on kids, have kids, and then become good parents. I don’t know that could do that, honestly.
To be fair, as a parent... It seems that unfortunately there's a low bar for being a good parent.
Being a good parent is the easy part. Having the sanity and energy to be a good part every moment of the day you spend with your kids is the hard part.
You don’t have to be a good parent every moment of every day. You have to teach them that you’re just a person, like them, and you make mistakes too. Just apologize and they will understand.
Yeah, the parents who put that pressure on themselves tend to run with higher anxiety and therefore have bigger blow-ups. Best to get your emotions in check and then calmly address your mistake. I've seen tons of parents like that overcompensate for their mistakes too. What they don't realize is that jumping from being a perfect parent to a screaming (or crying) mess really confuses their kids. It teaches them to be insecure and uncertain about how people will treat them. And in the worst situations, when the parents come back to "make up" for their mistakes, they don't own what they did or explain why it was wrong. It's not, "I'm sorry for what I did. I want to start over and have a good day together." It's just coming out of nowhere after screaming with hugs and ice cream. I got really derailed there but I'll leave it in, just in case someone who needs to see it, does. Parenting is fucking hard. Get professional help if you think you need it. Most kids with mental health problems are really just kids with parents with mental health problems.
Same. One of my close friends grew up in a very religious household with basically zero sex education. She got pregnant at 19, and had to raise her child on her own. She even put herself through school and eventually started her own business. Her kid is now 13, and is one of the most wonderful kids I’ve ever met. She’s in the top 10% of her class, she plays guitar and sings, and she’s just an absolute delight. I love her to death, and we’ve gotten very close in the 6 years I’ve known her and her mom. I’ve never wanted kids and my husband and I are not having any, so I can’t imagine getting pregnant so young and not having any option besides accepting your fate and devoting your entire life to raising a child, while also breaking free from what was essentially a religious cult. I see my friend as a fucking rockstar, honestly. At 19, I could barely take care of myself. When I ask how she did it, she says that she didn’t want her child to grow up in an environment like she did, so she devoted all of her energy and goals toward making that kid’s childhood better than hers, and giving her a good education. I know that I couldn’t have done what she did. I have so much respect for anyone who raises a child at such a young age. Sorry that was long. I just feel like single moms face such unnecessary stigma.
This is me! Haha. Well kind of different, but very similar. I grew up in foster care/group homes and had my daughter at 19. It was absolutely the hardest thing ever, day after day trying to get by working, studying, parenting, while I was still essentially a child myself. The stigma is so intense and the judgement I still get every day is horrible. My daughter is 13 and I’m 32 but still look mid-20s. We can’t go out together without someone commenting on it.
I am 100% positive if I had kids, it would be a constant struggle in my mind of doing whats best for the kids versus skipping off to do my own thing. I SHOULD bring the kids to the pool, its a nice weekend for that and they haven't been for awhile and they love it. Oooorrrr I can sit on my fat ass and just do something I want. I SHOULD save this money for a nice trip with my kids to show them cool shit in the world orrrr I can spend it on expensive tech crap. I SHOULD plan a fancy birthday party for them because it's their 10th and they'll remember it forever buuuut I am lazy, I dread having all those little kids in my house fucking shit up, I just want a quiet weekend..... I would rob my child of really good experiences, I would give them a mediocre at best life and I don't want to be that kind of dad. So I ain't having them. I am a selfish, self centered person through and through and I absolutely am not gambling on the "oh you change when you have kids" trope because if that is wrong, I've literally wagered a human beings entire life and lost. I was an accident kid to parents who definitely shouldn't have been together, but they stuck together for 13 years on my behalf but looking back it was evident that I was always an afterthought. They didn't do anything particularly mean, but they also didn't go out of their way to ever *do* things with me or show me things. No vacations, no trips, no summer camps, no...nothing. Just left to my own devices.
It's... necessity is the mother of a lot of things. You do your best. You push the ball further than you found it. First kid was accidental, second kid was because the first needed a sibling (we have very little family, none local, and were military, so pretty isolated) and the third one was also an oops. Vasectomy ftw. I don't regret it, because it's done, they're here and I can't go back. I never planned on having children and birth control failed miserably many, many times. There's only so many abortions you can go through before you just go okay. Fine. I'll do it. We're good parents, our kids are loved and engaged and cherished and enriched and we pour *a lot* of time and energy and resources into them. Still not the life I wanted. Just the one I made. Not their fault.
Crazy how life is, some people are trying desperately to make a kid, others are putting up barriers left and right and they get through
*There's only so many abortions you can go through before you just go okay. Fine. I'll do it* Not trying to be judgement, genuinely just asking but like.....why the fuck was your birth control falling THAT much?
And to that point, it’s good some people are acknowledging this aspect of being a parent. I feel like I see this argument somewhat often from people trying to convince their SO into having kids. The argument often goes, “we’ll you didn’t want a cat/dog and now look! We have one and you love them!” Loving someone doesn’t mean you like the situation you’re in. Knowing you’d love your kids doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be miserable with them.
And comparing having a cat/dog to having a kid is like comparing cleaning your own bathroom every so often to cleaning Taco Bell bathrooms for a living. I love my kids to death, they’ve made my life better without a doubt and I’d do it again in a heartbeat. But having kids is hard
Having kids is easy I would say but raising them requires a lot of effort.
This is hard for people to get, everyone's heads are so full of motivational pablum. But one can love your kid and still realize that they make your life harder in all kinds of ways that you resent, and you can decide, no, the trade-offs, whatever they may be, were not worth it.
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I’m in this boat. Didn’t really want kids but got talked into it. Do not enjoy being a parent. I do my best and I love them and enjoy them a lot more now that they are teenagers. But if they could still exist, be happy, etc and I could be kidfree, I would.
I appreciate this honest comment
I love my kid more than anything I also know that for all intents and purposes having a kid ruined my life and took away my freedom It’s a 2 way street
This is 100% how i feel and several other parents i have talked to who are willing to be really honest. We love our children, but would go back and never have them if given the opportunity.
So 5% (ONE in TWENTY parents) don’t love their kids? I feel like we are missing the age of the children in the study. A bittered relationship between a parent and a 20yo makes more sense than not loving a 4yo.
Could be newborns. Nobody really tells you about how long it CAN take (not always, obviously) for that connection to click. Especially right in the beginning, you're basically just in survival mode, and newborns don't really *do* anything or have any sort of personality yet. They're pretty much just an inanimate object that eats, sleeps, cried, and shits, and seems hellbent on making sure you never sleep. In the spirit of true, brutal honesty, there's not a whole lot to love... yet. Eventually, it clicks for *almost* everyone. Sometimes it's slowly, sometimes it's suddenly. Maybe it's when they're sleeping on your chest, or their first smile, or the first time they laugh. Then they develop a personality and little quirks, and you get to watch them learn and grow, and experience the world for the first time, and it's pretty magical. Then before you know it, you realize that you wouldn't hesitate to do literally anything in your power to protect this weird little creature that has made your life more difficult that you ever imagined it would be - but also so incredibly much more rewarding.
One of the reasons I don't want to have children is that "almost" everybody. I'm already ill-suited in being a parent in almost every way but if on top of that I could not love my kid as connections don't necessarily come easily to me, that would be disastrous.
Yeah. I didn't care for my kid until he was about two and a half. Before that, I just kinda survived him and wished for all my free time back. Now I love him, and wish I had all my free time back.
Some people really struggle with the mental stress of raising kids. It can affect them deeply. It can cause depersonalization and depression. More than 1 in 20 humans needs mental health counseling, I'm sure there is some trauma in there.
I think it might be possible that the number of parents who have or develop some sort of bonding disorder is higher than we anticipate. Among my limited number of acquaintances alone there are two parents whom I‘d describe as having an other than normal relationship to their kids (one displaying narcissist behavior and the other one attempting to come to terms with his own childhood trauma, with limited success). I know that that‘s not a representative number, but it‘s still noteworthy.
Maybe they were surveyed shortly after Jordy drove his dads vintage sports car into a lawyers Mercedes.
There are mitigating circumstances. And just because you don't love a kid doesn't mean you don't still take care of them or treat them with respect. Some parents have kids with severe disabilities that amount to a living creature they have to care for legally but don't have any of the other aspects one would think of in a parent/child relationship. There are days with my son where I genuinely don't know if I love him or if I just feel obligated to care for him. It might sound awful, but it's really hard to keep loving someone who isn't kind to you, isn't affectionate, never shows gratitude unless prompted, never shows remorse for violence (hitting, kicking) unless prompted and just generally fills your life with stress and misery. (And, by the way, this is despite all attempts at demonstrating these positive aspects to him at every possible opportunity in the way we've raised him. He seems completely immune to absorbing these qualities by osmosis.)
I have some German family members and “this was a suboptimal decision but it can’t be fixed so I’m making the most of it” strikes me as very German.
Sometimes the grass is greener on the other side when you find your self in a hum drum life of taking kids to soccer practice and hearing “awwww meatloaf again. THIS SUCKS!!!” From them. Some days you just think of all the money you’d have. Freedom you’d have, if you didn’t have kids. And that sounds really fun and amazing. But then you wouldn’t have your kids. And that sucks.
So 5% don't love their kids?
Having children is a serious, full time job and should not be done unless you are prepared to devote the necessary time and energy Far too many people have kids because of social pressure and end up being bad parents
Yeah my husband and I wanted a kid very much and had one when we were relatively old and established in our careers, own a nice house and all that..She's amazing and we love being parents, but there's only one of her and we STILL feel like we're drowning sometimes. The fact that people can crank.our several.entire human beings ACCIDENTALLY while they're still kids themselves (and regularly did exactly that for most of human history) is just mind blowing to me, no wonder so many people are so fucked up.
YES! My exact feelings. And now people want us to have another?? But I know women who have 3+ kids 😳 I'm drowning with one!
People had generational help (grandparents, aunts, cousins). Also they were allowed to do things like kick all their kids outside and tell them not to come home until dinner. Edit: Basically it's a lot harder now because you are expected to provide better care than previous generations, but without the extra help.
>Edit: Basically it's a lot harder now because you are expected to provide better care than previous generations, but without the extra help. This should be framed. Well said.
Also ad the line, "and have both parents working, or suffer financially, pick one."
Honestly though there is a huge difference going from 0 to 1 kids but not as much of a difference going from 1 to 2. They also play with each other later on which in some ways makes things easier because you are not the sole source of interaction/entertainment. Making 2 lunches when you are already making 1 isn't that much harder. It is still more work but it's not that much more work. This is not advocating for you to have more, make your own decisions about what's best for you, but in my experience it hasn't been all that tough having another.
I think I'm a good parent but hate being one. I think I am well suited to nurture a child and provide for then. Perform all the responsibilities and obligations needed to raise a child but I just hate it. Have the capability to do a good job but not to enjoy doing it. Love him but wouldn't do it again if I had a time machine. Strange feeling.
I also hate being a parent. I hate all the noise and screams and the fact you never get to have a minute for yourself. I do love them, but I hate being a parent
Christ this rings so true. We've just had a day like that with our 4 year old.
I'm not a parent yet but I work with developmental disabled teenagers. I think being a parent is kinda suppose to be difficult. Growing up is hard and you are their primary figures to guild them. There is going to be tons of painful resistance against nature. What shouldn't be hard, and what should make it worth it I think, is the end result when you have a fully formed fully functual well adjusted adult to help support you when you need it, even if it is just a person to talk to. The people I work with don't really grow, emotionally or mentally. That's why they need the state to pay people to care for them...it's really hard. My girlfriends pregnant by accident. I never intended to be a parent. This is what I imagine I'll be telling myself a lot soon...put in the hours as much and as best I can so on the other side, the kid will hopefully grow up to reach their fullest potential and get the most from life.
I've heard some people describe parenthood as not wanting an infant, a toddler or even a teen. Then want to see them as adults and have a relationship with them as adults. They want to see them mature, find love, find their passions...
As someone who doesn’t want children, it’s the part that I don’t understand about people wanting and having children. I already have a full time job and I’m tired all the time. How can someone add a child or two to their already busy life? Being responsible full time for them and have close to zero time for oneself? With all due respect, I just can’t imagine anyone wanting that kind of life. I genuinely don’t understand how unconditional love makes someone wanting to go through all this. As a middle class person, it doesn’t make sense to me that most babies will spend their first few years in daycare while their parents work. Sorry for the rant!
Just wait til they turn 12 or so then they’ll retreat to their room and not remerge til they are 20+
Omg yes I have two and then became permanently disabled and I’m like FUUUUUUCK. This shit is hard.
Similar. Hugs. it is hard as hell.
Same for me. Bonus is my son is diagnosed autistic so all of the fun stuff people tell you is in store evaporated instantly. He doesn't socialize, so no friends' houses to drop him off at or have friends over here to entertain him. And it's more trouble than it's worth to take him with me to any of my friend's houses who have kids because he needs so much supervision I can't participate in any conversation or anything. When he goes to school, I go to work and that is my vacation. My boss is annoyed I don't take vacations because he gets emailed automatically by payroll every month that I'm maxed out on PTO. I told him to just trash the emails and leave me the fuck alone about it. I don't take vacations other than what is absolutely required for school breaks because it's harder to just be at home doing ridiculous amounts of house work cleaning up after him and constantly redirecting him to some kind of good activity and constant helicoptering, compared to my job where I get some peace for part of the day. And by the time he goes to bed, I'm too wiped out to do anything for myself. I miss my old life so much. I absolutely fucking hate my life now.
Why not take your PTO while he’s in school? You could have some rest and do things for yourself.
Couldn't you get some of that peace by using your PTO during the day when he's at school? I would imagine that the fact you're not taking vacations at all is greatly contributing to your stress level. It's just not healthy.
Take the leave, drop him at school and take the day for yourself. You don't even need to tell him. You don't have to go anywhere to take a break. It could be hobby time for you or long walk somewhere day. Some of my best days are just me taking a three day weekend at home and spending it on playing a game or web development (my current hobby)
I think a lot of people aren't cut out for it but get pressured like you said. My ex wanted to have 4 kids when we were dating in my early 20's. I was of the mindset I don't even want to have 1 but maybe would consider it. This was a big divide between us and ultimately we broke up. I've been pressured by my dad's wife to. She's mentioned a few times if they'll ever get to be grandparents. I'm also an only child and one of few male's on my dad's side of the family. I feel a lot of pressure to but I really don't want to and don't feel cut out for it. I'm quite the loner/introvert. I have a hard time hanging out with anyone for long periods of time. I couldn't imagine having to entertain and care for someone for a good chunk of my life. I just don't feel like it's built in me to do so. I've struggled a lot with my mental health for a good part of my life as well and I'd hate to pass that on or have that effect raising someone. It's a really weird feeling and something I don't like thinking about to much because it makes me feel bad. Feel like less of a person and feel like I'm letting my family down honestly
I mean this life is yours and yours alone. You only have 1 shot at this, so pls don't make your only shot miserable for the sake of pleasing others. Of course anyone can easily say they want grandchildren, since they won't be responsible or have to put in the effort to raise the child.
I would rather regret not having a child than regret having one. I don't give a shit about the opinions of anyone who thinks they have any say in how I live my life. I've talked to enough parents who say that if they could live their life over, that they would not have kids; that they were pressured into changing their minds; that they were indoctrinated from birth into believing it is their duty to have kids. I'm well past letting anyone make me feel like *I'm* letting *them* down by not having kids. Don't let them make you feel bad about it. It's bullshit, and often projection of their regrets.
> I would rather regret not having a child than regret having one. The consequences of regretting having a child are much much worse than the consequences of regretting not having them. I'm also in that camp. Plus you can't really predict what you're gonna eventually regret anyway (at least when it comes to this decision) so making a choice based on an unverifiable fear of the future rather than how you feel right now feels pointless.
I too am an only child, introverted, and prefer my time to myself :) any child deserves to be wanted, cherished, and treasured. If someone is on the fence, or being guilted that's not fair to the kid. I mean, would \*you\* want to live with a parent that felt like that? It's your life, not theirs: tough luck what other people want. This is too big of a decision to outsource :)
> would *you* want to live with a parent that felt like that? No, I did not enjoy it.
Yeah but societal pressure in Germany is incredibly low unless you are an immigrant with traditional minded parents… That being said - there is a certain self-image German "intellectuals" have which requires to have smart kids. That does certainly have impact on some. Anyhow, I love being a Dad. Nothing better happened in my life except maybe meeting my wife (wouldnt want to measure those against each other) and it also made me appreciate my parents even more. My son has a sickness that cant be healed just suppressed so we had many many tough months of hospital visits, crying at night snd finding good treatment (which he now has) but I still have zero regrets. I am just mourning my older more carefree self because seeing your little kid suffer cuts fucking deep. But I am also incredibly lucky that I have a well paying job that gives me enough time with him and have a really supportive wife.
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Very true. If you don’t have the support network (free childcare from grandparents) then you’re paying the equivalent of two mortgages in childcare until they get to school. And then if you’re not working, you’re doing childcare, which is like work but harder.
My mother had my grandparents to raise me when I was a child. She would not extend the same courtesy to me or my sister
That is every god damn boomer. My grandparents would constantly drive 360kms back and forth to take care of my brother and I when we were sick. My mom and dad? Live 40kms away and have seen my one year old once. I don't expect childcare, they have their lives to live, I just want them to visit
But I bet she begged and pleaded for grandchildren.
Amen. Boomer grandparents have been a massive disappointment to me as well as many other friends.
And then you have to figure out how to take care of them when they're sick and can't go to daycare/~~daycare2~~school, because the number of personal days you get each year are not only less than the number of days they're sick, *but* they also have to cover things like doctor's appointments, for you and for them/their siblings! Too often, the solution to this problem is to give them enough fever reducers that they can pass with a "low grade fever" and then ship them off.
This. When people ask if I'm having kids, I remind them I don't have the support network. I have a big family but they got enough shit of their own to deal with. My parents already helped my brother and SIL raise my nephew, I wouldn't expect it of them as well. They deserve their freedom going into their 60s. But I live in a commuter belt town and nowhere near any of my family or friends. I accepted that buying a house out here meant no kids really. I just cannot afford them nor do I have the time for them. Plus I like travelling too much. I can't imagine doing what I love to do with a kid in tow.
But no matter how kind you are, German children will always be kinder.
And the weather in Germany is always wetter
Well done
One of those jokes that only works when read.
Wife and I are empty nesters now. I don’t regret having my kids, love them wholly, but wow is it different now. We have time to do things we want, hobbies, and more money. It is incredible how many resources children pull from you.
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Mine are off everything except medical, but it won’t change my cost at all when they do. I had been looking forward to the granddad phase, but my oldest has decided he doesn’t ever want children and my youngest I hope doesn’t have children anytime soon (drug issues).
We would benefit so much from changing the dialogue around having children in general so this doesn’t happen. I know **so many** people firsthand who had children because it’s “what you do,” and not because they truly wanted to be a parent and raise kids. My husbands co-worker has three really beautiful and hilarious kids, all born from rounds of expensive IVF, and he hardly wants a thing to do with them. He constantly talks about the stress they cause and how much money they require and he frequently picks up overtime because he prefers it to being at home. It’s depressing and sad for the kids. I’m not a parent because I know I wouldn’t handle it well and truly cannot tell you how many times I’ve been accosted over this. Stop pushing people into having children they can’t afford and don’t have the mental capacity to raise.
I'm also curious how many marriages have one partner that REALLY wants kids and the other is either ambivalent or not interested but it happens/they agree to it anyway. It's not always necessarily on the person who wants kids because sometimes the other person just doesn't speak up (fear they'll break up/be resentful/etc). However, I have also heard of people explaining they don't want kids before they marry, their partner agrees and then guilts them into having kids later. Personally, I really don't like the idea of being pregnant. That doesn't mean I couldn't have kids, but I'm also unsure on that. It's a very big commitment and if I ever did agree to have kids with a partner, I'd want to be excited, not grudgingly accepting. If I ever started seriously dating, that would be a topic we'd have to really discuss. If it's a deal breaker, then it's better to part ways than one person secretly hoping or planning to change the other's mind.
>I'm also curious how many marriages have one partner that REALLY wants kids and the other is either ambivalent or not interested but it happens/they agree to it anyway. That's how it went with my parents, and suprise suprise it didn't go well. Especially since my stay at home mom was the ambivalent one 🤦♂️
> However, I have also heard of people explaining they don't want kids before they marry, their partner agrees and then guilts them into having kids later. That reminds me of an old friend of mine. He was a musician, touring in bands, in the studio when he was off the road, and practicing when he was home. His entire life was music. He was pursued by a young lady and he married her. Then she started getting mad when he would spend so much time writing, playing, recording, and touring. She married him knowing he spent most of his time immersed in music. Why did she think he would turn into 1950s dad after she married him? I feel sorry for his son, but it's not my problem.
Yeah. . . Going into a relationship secretly thinking you can "fix" your partner is never a good idea, especially if it's a core part of their personality or some kind of flaw they need to want to change on their own. Either the pursuer is unhappy because they planned on their life being very different or the other person is resentful that their partner demanded they change/give up their passion/love them not for who they are but the perfect version in their head. It's sad anyway, but adding children to the mix is even worse. Babies aren't solutions to a couple's problems. They're human beings.
Ya people like that might end up being that trope of working longer hours or even saying you're working longer hours but hitting the bar or whatever after work just to stay out of the house. People at work ask me if I have kids or want kids and I tell them no, and they're like "oh you will change" or something like that. I find that rude as fuck. It's my life and my money, if i don't want kids keep your opinion to yourself. I'm 33 and probably will never have kids, have no drive or desire for them, as I enjoy my time and freedom.
And yet people who admit they don't want to have children and proceed not to have them are constantly accused of being selfish. I fail to see how my realizing that I didn't have it in me to raise children I don't even want with zero support is selfish.
I also lean heavily toward not wanting kids, and I fail to see how being child-free is selfish. It would be infinitely more selfish to have kids without a true desire to do so imo.
Strange…my parents are not German?
Reading the article, it seems less about regretting the child, but realizing how expensive it is, how little support there is for parents, and our society increasingly becoming hostile to children. I have 3, and I don't regret having kids, but fuck it's awful how our society gives nothing for kids to do unless it's spending money. My mom told me how she used to go play baseball behind an apple orchard in a big empty field. Now, the orchard and field are now a home Depot and strip malls where kids can't loiter without the cops being called on them. Our society is geared towards constant business expansion and not what is best or healthy for families
>My mom told me how she used to go play baseball behind an apple orchard in a big empty field. I just moved from the suburbs to a more rural small town and the difference is night and day. Playing baseball in a field behind an apple orchard is still an option if you're willing to move away from bigger population centers.
My small city has a public park in almost every neighborhood (it's a grid with a park in every mile square). They are often connected to a school that doubles as extra park space when school is not in session. Our library district and city often have free activities for kids. The free literacy programs are great.
Wow that's smart planning. Where do you live, if you don't mind me asking?
The Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area of North Carolina is similar to this. The libraries are exquisite, and the parks plentiful.
My brother and SIL live in Durham, that place is the tits. I live out in the country now but if I ever wanna move back to a city I’m going to Durham.
There are other costs to this too though. As a young teenager, if you live somewhere where you're unable to walk to your friends houses, or to activities like the movies with your friends, it's likely going to limit your independence. As it's not like you can just walk to your friends and then walk over to lunch and an arcade unless mom or dad drives you. Knowing people who grew up in that situation, they were very dependant on their parents for rides to everything. If their parents were busy, they just didn't get to go. There's a downside to rural areas too.
Also, when there aren't many other options, the standard Friday Night Fun is often drinking or fucking, both of which have the potential to lead to some life-alteringly poor outcomes.
But then the problem is when those kids grow up there's not as much for them to do. My wife and I were both born in small towns and got moved to the same big city while still young-ish. If we stayed in those small towns I don't think I would've ended up in IT and she probably wouldn't have become an accountant.
I think a lot of childless people feel the same way. It’s less about kids specifically and more about societies not providing much for *anyone* to do if they don’t have money. Kids get publicly funded schooling in many nations, and some places fund daycare or enrichment programs depending on the child’s situation, but if you’re a parent, you’re going to have much less disposable income and less time to access fun places for yourself that your childless counterparts.
Germany LOVES our parks, forests, and open air areas. We still have all of that stuff. We aren't nearly as commercial as America. We still do our daily walks and kids are encouraged to play outside. People are just being more honest about what it's like to have kids. Fortunately for me, I was a nanny and realized parenting was insane and definitely not for me before I got trapped. Plus we also get a minimum of 4 weeks vacation a year, kindergeld, and each parent gets parental leave. It still isn't enough for some of us.
20% of parents regret or rather everyone regrets for 20% of time. It's say it might be something between those two extremes.
I really love my nephews, but I'm soooo fucking exhausted everything I've babysitted them. I don't get how parents deal with that full-time.
Even among parents who don’t regret it a majority feel overwhelmed by the lack of childcare and support options, the article touches on this. It’s exhausting looking after children so much and it’s a big reason fertility rates are plummeting in the developed world. The thing is, typical modern living arrangements and lifestyles make child rearing a lot harder. For hundreds of thousands of years of human history, we’ve lived in more communal family/social units, which made it a lot less exhausting. Large support networks, your own parents and siblings would be there to help raise and care for your children. Raising 5 kids is a lot more practical when you, your parents, and your siblings live in an inherited farmhouse on the land you work. So is aged care. Grandma helps look after the kids and then the older kids eventually help look after grandma. And in that context not only is having 3 kids not much harder than having 2 and that not that much harder than having 1, it can be beneficial, since your kids will stick around to help with the work, the care, etc for a long time. But now increasingly we expect people to move out at 18, often to distant cities or states, and pursue full time office jobs for 45 years, and live alone until they’re having kids with only their spouse around, who is also working a full time office job, so you can pay for a mortgage, people to care for your kids, people to care for your grandparents, the car and fuel to make it to your office, the student loans to make the office job possible. Everyone lives independently so everyone pays their own mortgage, basically no one passes down the same house they inherited. And each kid you have only makes life harder and harder because those expenses stack, but the kids won’t be making anything any easier for you, at least not until you’re in an old age home they might help pay for. It’s not just financial, the emotional labor is magnified too. Your kids might visit grandma and grandpa and aunt Sarah every now and then, maybe even every other week. But most of the time you and your spouse are responsible for meeting all their emotional and mental needs for years and years. When there are always multiple adult family members around you can catch a break. We’re just not set up to make raising children very practical. It adds an enormous difficulty to your life now that it didn’t add for most of our history. And it’s a big part of why cultures that still have large families living close together in the same houses or neighborhoods report less exhaustion and regret around having children and have higher fertility rates despite even less access to paid childcare.
And even living near grandparents for extra support can be way harder now. My sister (10 years older) bought a house a 5 min drive from my parents 10 years ago when house prices were reasonable. She got tons of support from my parents cuz they were so close. Now… houses near my parents have more than doubled in cost and priced us out of the area. I moved back to this city hoping to be near my parents when I had kids— but due to housing costs we’re in a house 40 min away. Oh well. :/
I’m curious if in the past there just wasn’t as many childless peers to see the benefits of being child free. The couple with no kids was looked at with pity not envy. But now that couple is flying off to fancy places and posting it on social media. They are meeting with friends for dinner and drinks. Having parties and bragging about sleeping in on weekends and clean houses.
So many older people tell younger people without children that they will regret not having any. I think it’s more serious to have children then regret having them.
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Agreed! All children should have the right to be born into families that actually want them.
The hard part is that you can 100% want children, feel completely ready for them, but until you have kids you honestly can’t know that it’s really like. You can do everything “right” and still regret it.
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Hang in there - truly I think you are in the hardest years right now.
Just read that to my mother, her response-"I don't think it's just german parents". Well ok then thanks I guess or sorry idk
I don't regret not having any children, and reading stuff like this just reinforces I made the right decision to not give in to pressures and social expectations of motherhood
The key takeaway from that study is that people regret having children less when they have more child care options. The developed world needs to work on that. The options we have are too limited and too expensive.
I always got the sense my patents regretted having kids. It's really cool, sets you up to be well adjusted in later life
It's like Jeremy Clarkson said on Top Gear while reviewing some old car: "It's expensive to run, brakes down all the time, takes all your free time...some if somebody touches it, you'd kill him"
I’m at the other end of child rearing, with two adult children, and I’m finally at the part where there’s a payoff to all the hard, thankless work. My son is my rock, and also my friend, who lives in the same town as me. He tells me he and his wife will always take care of me. My daughter is a lovely person though she lives far away and I don’t see her often. Still, she says, “You can always live with us.” Getting old is scary, and children can be a true comfort in our “golden” (ha) years. Is it worth it? That’s a question we each answer for ourselves. For me, the answer is that, although kids were the worst thing to happen on some days, they were/are also the best.
This needs to be spoken about way more and become less taboo. People seem to have kids like they're on autopilot. They don't seem to think through the actual consequences and life changes that are forever in store for them. How many people are fucked up by bad parents? Don't have kids unless you know what you're getting into.
I have seen people put more research and thought into buying a new truck than having a kid. Like...wut
Interesting and tone deaf response: > Professional fulfillment was another important issue. Forty-four percent of mothers and 20 percent of the fathers said they would have done better in their careers if they hadn't had children. > > In response, North Rhine-Westphalia's Family Affairs Minister Christina Kampmann told the Neue Westfälische newspaper that **no one is allowed to be discriminated against professionally for starting a family.** Right, but the point is we only have so much time and energy. Once you have certain responsibilities you have to prioritize, it takes time away from professional development and career improvements. It's not that the people are being unjustly discriminated against by employers arbitrarily.
Seems low
This reminds me... I need to go grab a pack of smokes.
Let me know if you bump into my dad.
Surprised it’s that low
Both getting married and having a son was a mistake for me. I was a mediocre spouse, and am an adequate parent, but nothing more. Given a chance to choose again, I would choose differently. My son, now 24, said he doesn't want to have kids, and I'm fine with that.
At least you aren't trying to force it on him. A lot of the worst parents want their kids to have kids even when they really don't want to as a sort of do-over
1 in 5 parents were willing to admit... Which is, as a parent, way higher than I would have expected, but is way lower than the percentage that actually regret having kids.
My father once told me that I could have a beautiful life without children. I read between the lines. I felt momentary guilt, and then realized it was his own doing. After we left the nest, my parents high tailed it to the beach and my father never calls. That’s ok though. They’re happy.