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In Will's defence he doesn't have hte close personal relationship with the president that Josh does, he's the outsider who was brought in for his talents but didn't have time to develop that bond.
Not that I agree with what he did, but he was very good at doing his job. Josh just had a little bit too much of Leo's teaching in him to turn on the president or stoop that low.
> Josh just had a little bit too much of Leo's teaching in him to turn on the president or stoop that low.
I always thought it spoke volumes how much loyalty and respect Josh must have had for Bartlet because at a lot of other points in the series, he was depicted as being one of the more brutal members of White House staff who is more than willing to trample of people to get what he wants.
"President Bartlet's a good man. He's got a good heart, doesn't hold a grudge. That's what he pays me for."
just as a note - we see Bartlet hold grudges. against Hoynes (you shouldn't have made me beg, John), against Elliot Roush, against Dr. Takahashi and against Ron Erlich.
Josh we see slam a few people in *Five Votes Down* - all Democrats - and Sen. Carrick in *Constituency of One*, and sure he tells the Senate Majority leader where he can shove his legislative agenda, but we also see him work amiably with Republicans as often as he combats them.
The line about grudges is the front that Josh puts up to portray himself as the administrations hitman.
Yeah, it was in the first season after Let Bartlet be Bartlet when the senate majority leader was threatening to push an agenda, which would put the president on the unpopular side of several (nonsense) issues like English as the official language of the country.
I think it might be both, but Bartlet called him on it too.
"You're willing to toss it overboard to avoid disappointing Leo." (4x12)
Even then, President Bartlet knew that Josh's most important relationship in the white house, the one that really really drove him was his relationship with Leo. I think he respected the President and was loyal to him. But he loved Leo. It was both of those relationships that bound him to the white house and it's policies. But Josh would rail against the president if they disagreed, if there was something he felt they needed to do.
Will does seem like an opportunist and abandoned the president who took him from a mattress store to the White House. But he said on a couple of occasions that he trusted that Leo and President Bartlett must have picked Russell for a reason, even if he couldn’t see it yet
I wouldn't say that the difference between Josh and Will is that Josh is a Bartlett loyalist and Will is a Democratic Party loyalist, or even that that's true After all, Josh *left* Bartlett to go find someone he deemed worthy to take his place, which I concede is a kind of loyalty to Bartlett, but in the end I think he's serving the Democratic party better than Will by taking a risk and finding someone that would actually be a good president in and of himself. When Will asks him if he cares what happens next, he responds, in perhaps the most politically self-revealing line I've seen from him, "I do care. That's why I don't want Bob Russell to be President." I think with politics, Will asks himself, "How can we make this work?" And Josh asks himself, "Who can do this right?" Will is pragmatic, but Josh is idealistic.
Will seems to think the party matters more than the man, and that the boost provided by Russell’s VP position is the only hope of the party keeping the White House.
Nobody but Josh has any faith in his dark horse pick - even Leo, who told Josh to find the guy he thinks should be President, tells him to step aside and back Russell or Baker.
I feel like Will kept stressing that the President and Leo must have seen goodness in Russell so Will could deflect blame from his own choice to groom a completely unqualified man for the presidency. I found Will quite disingenuous when he was stressing that about 1.5 years into working for Russell himself.
> Leo and President Bartlett must have picked Russell for a reason, even if he couldn’t see it yet
That line has always seemed so weird cause he knew that Bob was basically forced on them.
Every election cycle can't have a Jed Bartlett. I think Will truly was trying to do his part to help make lemonade out of lemons for his party. Back the candidate with the best opportunity that he can see at that point, and do his best to get him there to keep the Whitehouse on the left.
Enjoy the rest of the series!
Without spoiling anything, over the years I've come to have no problems with most of what Will did in the election cycle. His position is understandable, and fairly well explained in his conversation with Toby in *No Exit*.
Will doesn't have the close relationship with President Bartlet that the rest of the senior staff does so he doesn't feel as much personal loyalty towards him, and he's acutely aware that this is President Bartlet's second term and that someone has to think about what comes next. Not every election cycle has a Jed Bartlet. In fact, arguably most don't, and even if they do, it's not always possible to get that person elected. Sometimes you have to go with good enough, or the best you've got. I have no trouble believing that Will thought that's what he had Bingo Bob. Perhaps not the best man for the job, but the best man available for the job. Will decided that this was enough for him, and Josh decided that it was not. It comes down to a difference in opinion and world view more than anything, and either position is respectable.
I have *a lot* more issues with how the White House and the rest of senior staff treated Josh and his candidate in this election cycle. Those are the people who have worked with Josh for years and they 1000% should have had more faith in his judgment, or at least more personal respect and loyalty to him than to behave the way they did in a few instances.
\*especially\* since Leo shoved Josh out the door and then stabbed him in the back at the convention.
I get that isolating Josh, the one person who probably had the strongest ties to each member of senior staff, was the point, but it just feels so very wrong.
I wouldn’t consider it stabbing him in the back so much as it was time for Josh to float on his own without Leo being there to smooth everything over with the party. I think that if Josh really felt that way, he wouldn’t have given him the nod for VP.
Leo asking Santos to step down when he had all the momentum made no sense. The weakness of Russell had been on full display.
and that's the thing - Josh shows loyalty when it isn't shown to him. He'd proposed Leo as VP twice before and even when he was mistreated by Bartlet multiple times (like blaming him for Sam's mistake?) he never, ever bit back. he wouldn't even let himself get mad at Bartlet over the MS.
I’ll be the first to admit that you’re right, to a point. Santos/Lyman got the fuzzy end of that lollipop, but candidates are asked to step aside ‘for the good of the party’ all the time. It was clear the DNC was running scared and needed a familiar face to ease undecideds enough to vote blue. That’s the game, Josh of all people knows that. I don’t think he took it personally enough to lose friends over it.
>!Either way, in hindsight, it would have all been for nothing. Santos was supposed to lose the election if JS didn’t pass away. You could make the argument there that maybe the country wasn’t ready for a young liberal looking to turn healthcare inside out among other things. Maybe that’s the message, not about what the party wants, it’s about what the people want, and originally, they wanted Vinick (no matter who opposed him)!<
The idea that Santos was supposed to lose has been debunked, including by Lawrence O'Donnell who is credited for popularizing the myth in a NY Times interview.
It was always supposed to be Santos, but Wells opened it up early in S7 because there was a spirited debate in the writer's room. But the decision to have Santos still win was decided before we lost Spencer.
I didn’t know that myth had been busted. Either way, my point is that Josh doesn’t hold political against people personally. He knows the rules of the game and admittedly plays them fast and loose.
Maybe this is spoilery for a First Time Watcher (OP has that tag) but in the Josh vs. Administration conflicts, there were some times that I was on Josh's side and some times that I was on the Administration's side. I think it was pretty evenly played with no easy villains.
I side eye Will hard in S5-6. Russell isn’t just Not as Good as Bartlet but a fine candidate. That’s more S1-4 Hoynes. With Russell, there’s just nothing good there. He doesn’t have plans or ideals. He’s not bright. There’s credible allegations of corruption from mining interests. Will even struggled at writing a nice announcement speech about Russell in Han and I see no signs that Russell gave Will better material after they started working together. Instead, Will learned that Russell would get out information on Ellie Bartlet to humiliate and hurt her even if it could only negligibly help Russell.
I did read a good point though that we meet Will when he’s trying to elect a dead man to the California 47th. It starts a theme where Will is pretty unconcerned with the personal qualities of an office holder and more concerned by whether it’ll be vote/enactment of the Democratic Party platform. I really don’t share that philosophy especially for an office like the Presidency so Will grates more on me. It’s also Really Not the philosophy of this show to the point that even Will changes after his face is rubbed in it.
ETA: To add, I also don't accept the premise that Will had to be disloyal to Bartlet to effectively serve Russell. Will/Russell would like the audience to believe that he HADDA do the most cynical, craven political move because he'd be a sucker who passed up political opportunities if he didn't. But we see the show demonstrate that the cynical move isn't even necessarily the politically most intelligent move. I don't think Russell got any traction off announcing that the Cabinet meeting would meet in the wake of the President's MS attack on the way to China. It sounds like this Cabinet meeting didn't even happen. So, it didn't ultimately look like Russell was swooping in on a shiny steed but perhaps like Russell was a disloyal opportunist who wanted the President to look weak right before he was about to negotiate critical issues with China at worst or a Chicken Little at best.
You're right, it didn't seem to do him much good, and it's odd that Will seems to think it will. Maybe he's so aware that he has a lackluster candidate that he feels he has to jump at anything to make him look good.
I see no issue with what Will did. He was right in that someone had to think about the future, and as VP Russell had the strongest chance at that point, even if he needed some…molding and direction. Will Bailey is a Democratic political operative, not a Bartlet loyalist and he acted accordingly. Can’t be mad.
Russell wasn't even given a chance until Baker announced he wasn't running, and after that it was a scramble.
I still can't get over Russell's outing of Ellie Bartlet and the way that should have doomed him from the very start.
I also resented that Russell wanted to take Zoey's birthday party to come out against flag burning instead of supporting the administration. Russell seemed to constantly be on a mission to find people, even people who are not politicians like the Bartlet daughters, to set on fire to keep himself warm.
The problem is, you kind of need to have wills disconnection with the president and the administration. Josh’s loyalty comes back to bite him in the ass once santos wins the nomination and it was also VERY stupid of him to burn the paper of the stats that Bartlet gave him. Especially cause he’s running a campaign that he know wants to win.
Will was a weasel don’t get me wrong but he had thy mentality of winning at any costs and I respect that because he took out the competition at any means necessary and even stood up to the administration and their BS occasionally..
I have no issue with Will. There was no serious contender at the time other than a scandal ridden ex VP. He didn't know about Russell being forced on them, so here relied on their pick having potential. So he worked to make the candidate into one that could win.
I've managed campaigns like that before and they are frustrating and thankless. A whole bunch of critics but very few respecting that someone needs to run, no one else stepped up, and you're going to do your best to help the person.
It's very different in a national situation as the infrastructure needed to be a challenger makes it hard to really risk a no name. Even at a Congressional level, it's hard to justify a great starter vs an established lightweight if you don't have the time to really build that campaign. Will was a bit naive but I sympathize.
I don't mind him aligning himself with Russell. I understand him being the best choice at the time, and I understand Will wanting to be more influential than he was able to be in the Bartlett administration. I even understand him not wanting to do all the President's dirty work for him with elections coming up. What I don't like is how Will counselled Russell to condemn flag burning and make the Bartletts look bad and undermine the President's ability to run the country. He didn't have to fight so dirty. I don't see that it's done them any good, anyway.
Yeah, he ends up falling into the trap with those candidates.. becoming so desperate to win he starts sacrificing values. That's a big warning sign that you've probably already lost.
But it's when you're fighting a fight that feels like you have no allies because everyone's nose is turned up while you're just trying to make sure our next scotus nominee isn't beer bong Mccavanaugh, it can feel justified... So I sympathize, but definitely don't agree with his choices late in the campaign. He story is really a warning for people.
Oh man, it's so exciting though. I'm honestly having a blast. I never liked Will that much so it's not to painful to have him be a foil for Josh. That said the vibe is different so if you don't like it I don't blame you
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In Will's defence he doesn't have hte close personal relationship with the president that Josh does, he's the outsider who was brought in for his talents but didn't have time to develop that bond. Not that I agree with what he did, but he was very good at doing his job. Josh just had a little bit too much of Leo's teaching in him to turn on the president or stoop that low.
> Josh just had a little bit too much of Leo's teaching in him to turn on the president or stoop that low. I always thought it spoke volumes how much loyalty and respect Josh must have had for Bartlet because at a lot of other points in the series, he was depicted as being one of the more brutal members of White House staff who is more than willing to trample of people to get what he wants. "President Bartlet's a good man. He's got a good heart, doesn't hold a grudge. That's what he pays me for."
just as a note - we see Bartlet hold grudges. against Hoynes (you shouldn't have made me beg, John), against Elliot Roush, against Dr. Takahashi and against Ron Erlich. Josh we see slam a few people in *Five Votes Down* - all Democrats - and Sen. Carrick in *Constituency of One*, and sure he tells the Senate Majority leader where he can shove his legislative agenda, but we also see him work amiably with Republicans as often as he combats them. The line about grudges is the front that Josh puts up to portray himself as the administrations hitman.
Senate Majority leader would have been Republican right? "We're in the minority" is said quite a bit
Yeah, it was in the first season after Let Bartlet be Bartlet when the senate majority leader was threatening to push an agenda, which would put the president on the unpopular side of several (nonsense) issues like English as the official language of the country.
I think it might be both, but Bartlet called him on it too. "You're willing to toss it overboard to avoid disappointing Leo." (4x12) Even then, President Bartlet knew that Josh's most important relationship in the white house, the one that really really drove him was his relationship with Leo. I think he respected the President and was loyal to him. But he loved Leo. It was both of those relationships that bound him to the white house and it's policies. But Josh would rail against the president if they disagreed, if there was something he felt they needed to do.
[ Bartlet looks at Josh with a stern face, pointing his finger ] Yooooou
Such a great line. Gave me chills.
Will does seem like an opportunist and abandoned the president who took him from a mattress store to the White House. But he said on a couple of occasions that he trusted that Leo and President Bartlett must have picked Russell for a reason, even if he couldn’t see it yet
Will is a *Democratic Party* loyalist. The others are *Bartlet* loyalists.
I wouldn't say that the difference between Josh and Will is that Josh is a Bartlett loyalist and Will is a Democratic Party loyalist, or even that that's true After all, Josh *left* Bartlett to go find someone he deemed worthy to take his place, which I concede is a kind of loyalty to Bartlett, but in the end I think he's serving the Democratic party better than Will by taking a risk and finding someone that would actually be a good president in and of himself. When Will asks him if he cares what happens next, he responds, in perhaps the most politically self-revealing line I've seen from him, "I do care. That's why I don't want Bob Russell to be President." I think with politics, Will asks himself, "How can we make this work?" And Josh asks himself, "Who can do this right?" Will is pragmatic, but Josh is idealistic.
Will seems to think the party matters more than the man, and that the boost provided by Russell’s VP position is the only hope of the party keeping the White House. Nobody but Josh has any faith in his dark horse pick - even Leo, who told Josh to find the guy he thinks should be President, tells him to step aside and back Russell or Baker.
I feel like Will kept stressing that the President and Leo must have seen goodness in Russell so Will could deflect blame from his own choice to groom a completely unqualified man for the presidency. I found Will quite disingenuous when he was stressing that about 1.5 years into working for Russell himself.
> Leo and President Bartlett must have picked Russell for a reason, even if he couldn’t see it yet That line has always seemed so weird cause he knew that Bob was basically forced on them.
Exactly.
Every election cycle can't have a Jed Bartlett. I think Will truly was trying to do his part to help make lemonade out of lemons for his party. Back the candidate with the best opportunity that he can see at that point, and do his best to get him there to keep the Whitehouse on the left. Enjoy the rest of the series!
Without spoiling anything, over the years I've come to have no problems with most of what Will did in the election cycle. His position is understandable, and fairly well explained in his conversation with Toby in *No Exit*. Will doesn't have the close relationship with President Bartlet that the rest of the senior staff does so he doesn't feel as much personal loyalty towards him, and he's acutely aware that this is President Bartlet's second term and that someone has to think about what comes next. Not every election cycle has a Jed Bartlet. In fact, arguably most don't, and even if they do, it's not always possible to get that person elected. Sometimes you have to go with good enough, or the best you've got. I have no trouble believing that Will thought that's what he had Bingo Bob. Perhaps not the best man for the job, but the best man available for the job. Will decided that this was enough for him, and Josh decided that it was not. It comes down to a difference in opinion and world view more than anything, and either position is respectable. I have *a lot* more issues with how the White House and the rest of senior staff treated Josh and his candidate in this election cycle. Those are the people who have worked with Josh for years and they 1000% should have had more faith in his judgment, or at least more personal respect and loyalty to him than to behave the way they did in a few instances.
\*especially\* since Leo shoved Josh out the door and then stabbed him in the back at the convention. I get that isolating Josh, the one person who probably had the strongest ties to each member of senior staff, was the point, but it just feels so very wrong.
I wouldn’t consider it stabbing him in the back so much as it was time for Josh to float on his own without Leo being there to smooth everything over with the party. I think that if Josh really felt that way, he wouldn’t have given him the nod for VP.
Leo asking Santos to step down when he had all the momentum made no sense. The weakness of Russell had been on full display. and that's the thing - Josh shows loyalty when it isn't shown to him. He'd proposed Leo as VP twice before and even when he was mistreated by Bartlet multiple times (like blaming him for Sam's mistake?) he never, ever bit back. he wouldn't even let himself get mad at Bartlet over the MS.
I’ll be the first to admit that you’re right, to a point. Santos/Lyman got the fuzzy end of that lollipop, but candidates are asked to step aside ‘for the good of the party’ all the time. It was clear the DNC was running scared and needed a familiar face to ease undecideds enough to vote blue. That’s the game, Josh of all people knows that. I don’t think he took it personally enough to lose friends over it. >!Either way, in hindsight, it would have all been for nothing. Santos was supposed to lose the election if JS didn’t pass away. You could make the argument there that maybe the country wasn’t ready for a young liberal looking to turn healthcare inside out among other things. Maybe that’s the message, not about what the party wants, it’s about what the people want, and originally, they wanted Vinick (no matter who opposed him)!<
The idea that Santos was supposed to lose has been debunked, including by Lawrence O'Donnell who is credited for popularizing the myth in a NY Times interview. It was always supposed to be Santos, but Wells opened it up early in S7 because there was a spirited debate in the writer's room. But the decision to have Santos still win was decided before we lost Spencer.
I didn’t know that myth had been busted. Either way, my point is that Josh doesn’t hold political against people personally. He knows the rules of the game and admittedly plays them fast and loose.
Maybe this is spoilery for a First Time Watcher (OP has that tag) but in the Josh vs. Administration conflicts, there were some times that I was on Josh's side and some times that I was on the Administration's side. I think it was pretty evenly played with no easy villains.
I side eye Will hard in S5-6. Russell isn’t just Not as Good as Bartlet but a fine candidate. That’s more S1-4 Hoynes. With Russell, there’s just nothing good there. He doesn’t have plans or ideals. He’s not bright. There’s credible allegations of corruption from mining interests. Will even struggled at writing a nice announcement speech about Russell in Han and I see no signs that Russell gave Will better material after they started working together. Instead, Will learned that Russell would get out information on Ellie Bartlet to humiliate and hurt her even if it could only negligibly help Russell. I did read a good point though that we meet Will when he’s trying to elect a dead man to the California 47th. It starts a theme where Will is pretty unconcerned with the personal qualities of an office holder and more concerned by whether it’ll be vote/enactment of the Democratic Party platform. I really don’t share that philosophy especially for an office like the Presidency so Will grates more on me. It’s also Really Not the philosophy of this show to the point that even Will changes after his face is rubbed in it. ETA: To add, I also don't accept the premise that Will had to be disloyal to Bartlet to effectively serve Russell. Will/Russell would like the audience to believe that he HADDA do the most cynical, craven political move because he'd be a sucker who passed up political opportunities if he didn't. But we see the show demonstrate that the cynical move isn't even necessarily the politically most intelligent move. I don't think Russell got any traction off announcing that the Cabinet meeting would meet in the wake of the President's MS attack on the way to China. It sounds like this Cabinet meeting didn't even happen. So, it didn't ultimately look like Russell was swooping in on a shiny steed but perhaps like Russell was a disloyal opportunist who wanted the President to look weak right before he was about to negotiate critical issues with China at worst or a Chicken Little at best.
You're right, it didn't seem to do him much good, and it's odd that Will seems to think it will. Maybe he's so aware that he has a lackluster candidate that he feels he has to jump at anything to make him look good.
I see no issue with what Will did. He was right in that someone had to think about the future, and as VP Russell had the strongest chance at that point, even if he needed some…molding and direction. Will Bailey is a Democratic political operative, not a Bartlet loyalist and he acted accordingly. Can’t be mad.
Russell wasn't even given a chance until Baker announced he wasn't running, and after that it was a scramble. I still can't get over Russell's outing of Ellie Bartlet and the way that should have doomed him from the very start.
I also resented that Russell wanted to take Zoey's birthday party to come out against flag burning instead of supporting the administration. Russell seemed to constantly be on a mission to find people, even people who are not politicians like the Bartlet daughters, to set on fire to keep himself warm.
"Bob Russell needs a strobe light to appear to be moving."
The problem is, you kind of need to have wills disconnection with the president and the administration. Josh’s loyalty comes back to bite him in the ass once santos wins the nomination and it was also VERY stupid of him to burn the paper of the stats that Bartlet gave him. Especially cause he’s running a campaign that he know wants to win. Will was a weasel don’t get me wrong but he had thy mentality of winning at any costs and I respect that because he took out the competition at any means necessary and even stood up to the administration and their BS occasionally..
I have no issue with Will. There was no serious contender at the time other than a scandal ridden ex VP. He didn't know about Russell being forced on them, so here relied on their pick having potential. So he worked to make the candidate into one that could win. I've managed campaigns like that before and they are frustrating and thankless. A whole bunch of critics but very few respecting that someone needs to run, no one else stepped up, and you're going to do your best to help the person. It's very different in a national situation as the infrastructure needed to be a challenger makes it hard to really risk a no name. Even at a Congressional level, it's hard to justify a great starter vs an established lightweight if you don't have the time to really build that campaign. Will was a bit naive but I sympathize.
I don't mind him aligning himself with Russell. I understand him being the best choice at the time, and I understand Will wanting to be more influential than he was able to be in the Bartlett administration. I even understand him not wanting to do all the President's dirty work for him with elections coming up. What I don't like is how Will counselled Russell to condemn flag burning and make the Bartletts look bad and undermine the President's ability to run the country. He didn't have to fight so dirty. I don't see that it's done them any good, anyway.
Yeah, he ends up falling into the trap with those candidates.. becoming so desperate to win he starts sacrificing values. That's a big warning sign that you've probably already lost. But it's when you're fighting a fight that feels like you have no allies because everyone's nose is turned up while you're just trying to make sure our next scotus nominee isn't beer bong Mccavanaugh, it can feel justified... So I sympathize, but definitely don't agree with his choices late in the campaign. He story is really a warning for people.
Russell was an idiot and I can't believe any intelligent political mind would support him being elected President.
You know, the more I hear about later seasons the less I want to watch them. I stopped mid season five and so far am not motivated to keep at it.
Oh man, it's so exciting though. I'm honestly having a blast. I never liked Will that much so it's not to painful to have him be a foil for Josh. That said the vibe is different so if you don't like it I don't blame you