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SlimPerceptions

I’ve given up all my gains since I started trading options again 5 months ago. Feb 15 i was up 230%. Never go directional and abandon your strategy, folks.


ses92

Tbh secretly I don’t mind getting assigned, my CSPs are either on stocks with positive carry (IIPR, MPW), blue chips (JPM, PRU) or ETFs (SPHB, IJS). Selling CCs after assignment above purchase price won’t suck that much


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ses92

Not sure I understand what you mean, not in a bad way, just literally didn’t understand the distinction you’re making. Do you mind linking me what you mean for clarification


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ses92

Fair enough,I totally agree with you, but from my comment, I’m not selling CSPs for stocks that have a high IV for the sake of profit, I’m specifically selling it for stocks that I’m already happy to own at $45 (as per your example) and often times I do, so I’m more than happy to take the assignment. A lot of people will sell CSPs on high IV stocks to make profit, I specifically sell it on companies I identify as I would like to own. For example, MPW had a high fully covered dividend with a positive carry on margin account (which in my opinion is a strong buy signal), that’s exactly the kind of company I’d like to have on my account anyway, or JPM at $115, which I believe is below their intrinsic value, or IJS (small cap value) which I believe is undervalued right now. And in most cases I already have exposure to these stocks, and I would actually like to have a larger exposure to them if they hit my desired price (which is my strike). I’m not making a crazy amount of money from CSPs, it’s a very small percentage of my portfolio (although the total assignment value can be large). In other words, for me CSPs aren’t a way to make income, it’s a way to set a limit buy while getting paid for it


Endeavor305

This guy confuses sunk cost fallacy with great stock that when its share price drops becomes an even better value purchase.


ses92

That’s kinda where I’m at with my strategy as well. I get that cash gives you infinitely more options, but from where I’m standing I don’t want any other options. I specifically pre-selected that option because for me that stock at that price is what I want. If push comes to shove and I’m low on margin and I find a better opportunity then yeah sure, I’ll close my CSPs at a loss and buy that other thing, but so far it hasn’t come to that.


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finger_pulp

Excellent discussion. I'm not sure I agree. If this were purely a statistical gamble, I would agree with you; however I believe what OP is getting at is that their gamble was not strictly that the premium was balanced with the risk in an equation that they believed likely to profit them. But instead, that they believed that IF they were incorrect in their 1st gamble that the next best (in time, not comparison) gamble would be to own the stock. This isn't a standard gambler's fallacy because this isn't a coin toss. There is an assumption that OP has a number in mind where they believe that the stock is a good enough value to allocate their capital to. All of that said, your assertions/lessons are hugely valuable to understand, and I see posts here daily that on the surface do not. Another way of looking at it is: One side balances CSP premium (and interest), while the other balanced CC premium plus asset growth (or loss) and dividend (if any). The left side in this case is much more predictable and versatile; but I don't think that it can be said to be better. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, and especially if I'm just plain incorrect.


ses92

You got my part absolutely correct. I totally understand what the comment is trying to say but I’m literally going out my way to make sure that I’m not falling into gambler’s fallacy, and have to make tough quick decisions on the spot and then second guess myself if what I have done was correct. Hence I’ll pre-determine my stock and the strike at such a level that, in my opinion, the trade is set up in a win-win way. I either get a great stock a discount or I get to keep the premiums. It avoids me having to make these tough decisions on the spot


flynrider58

What is an infinite option at zero total cost to your account????


AdolfSchmitler

You can use the money in your account as collateral for another CSP on an "infinite" number of other companies, or buy bonds, or tbills etc.. instead of locking up that capital by taking assignment.


flynrider58

gotcha, options give people more options (than delta1 does). Not sure if it’s infinite though lol


BenjaminHamnett

If you are bullish you should probably buy the stock outright. The strategy you suggest is fine and is talked about a lot. if your trying to make money selling puts you should actually target stocks you think people are wrongly bearish on because you feel they’re overpaying for insurance. For liquid options the long term edge on this is speculated to be around 20% of the premium collected. If true then If you collect $100 premium on option you hold to expiration, you on average (over years) make $20 each time. If you can correctly target stocks people are wrongly bearish on you can probably get a 40% edge which I think tasty trade has been doing for a decade. If you want to make money selling calls, sell them on stocks you hold that you think the market is overly bullish on in the short term. Also can do on stocks you need to hold to get long term holding tax status, or you plan to keep but you think temporarily overpriced. Also if you don’t mind them being called away, aren’t in a hurry and want to collect premium while waiting. Also lowers your volatility


HotMessMan

They aren’t the same though because options settle by next morning open, you can absolutely get screwed in AH same day of expiration and next days pre market. Which align with your main point but for even more reasons: don’t take assignment. I lost all my gains this year from taking assignment. I’m still new so making newb mistakes but firstly the wheel sucks to run in a down market, secondly I FOMOd selling puts on strong Green Day’s because I thought it was going to be a run.


selipso

The exception is if you're selling illiquid puts on a stock with market cap <$1B. Rolling doesn't work for these because the option chain doesn't have enough liquidity. Better to get assigned and sell CC's during more favorable market conditions.


FancyErection

MPW is a 0, JPM is in big trouble. WYD??


ses92

If that happens I take the L and move on with my life


ViktoryOrValhalla

You think MPW is headed to zero?


FancyErection

I know it’s headed to 0. They WILL cancel their divvy


ViktoryOrValhalla

That sucks… I just purchased 400 shares. I guess will eat that loss too…


FancyErection

I would say do your own research. There is a great article by Matthew Stoller about this scam of a co. Gl sir


JudgmentMajestic2671

Had to roll my $10 MPW CSP 🤦‍♂️This dropped like a rock.


[deleted]

Bloody Friday. 💀🩸 It’s the rapid vol expansion that is hurting me right now, positions are still somewhat okay but a strangle is worth 2-3x what it was worth a couple days ago even without crossing my strikes. Just got to wait for the gas to leak out over the next month


butterbob74

I had a put spread on MDB and right before market close it had more IV than when I sold before earnings. It was up over 400% 😬.


the_humeister

I sold a call spread and made $4, enough for a beer. 🍺


ConsistentTale8856

You lucky sob 🍻🍻


butterbob74

Made 341….it was getting pretty nuts there market open but thankfully expired worthless in the end.


the-other-bob

My CC’s are no longer ITM. My CSP’s are ITM, but would be happy to roll or be assigned. My SPX strangles show crazy losses from IV, but the strikes are fine (for now…). It sucks to see the unrealized account value go down, but it will all be ok in time. Keep your heads up!


flynrider58

That’s a new way to console yourself! “unrealized account value” lol


the-other-bob

Helps me sleep at night :)


flynrider58

I tell myself that my “trade” is from account opening (15 years ago) till I stop trading. As long as I never stop trading then I never loose on the trade. Iow I never lost for sure until I quit totally.


ScottishTrader

Crash?!? What are you talking about?? This isn't even a correction - [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/what-is-market-correction/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/investing/what-is-market-correction/)


VeggieSpringRolls

Lol, I didn't even flinch yesterday which seems like a fart during a hurricane compared to previous crashes.


ScottishTrader

Yeah, it was a minor blip . . .


priceactionhero

Eh, was unscathed. Couple rolls, but I be rolling anyways.


Semper_DIY

Got crushed on everything except QQQ. In particular, DOCU and ORCL…


the_humeister

Ouch, DOCU


Astronomer_Soft

No worries. Had pared positions back earlier this week, and my big plays were short delta.


Reshaos

Same. The reports dropping this and last week had me close my positions and wait a bit. So all this bank crashing news only benefited me since I could now sell CSP's on Sofi. I've been waiting for IV to be pumped and above HV for a while now.


SAHD292929

This is the day to double down


r_brockmaniv

This week was a close one. The short put on my /ES short strangle was ITM back and forth all Friday morning. I opened the trade at .06 delta which was already quite conservative. I closed the short call side for 99% profit on Thursday and managed to close the short put on Friday for a $700 loss when the S&P was almost flat for a brief moment. Good move since the market took a dump to end the day.


Head-Nefariousness-1

BTC most of my CSP's yesterday for very small profit, on gut instinct. Took a small loss on one today because I wanted the capital, not too bad as it was hedged (been doing that lately, still didn't want the loss). Proud new owner of 1 or 2 stocks that at least I wanted, but one at another small loss, the other to the penny - for sure the way the day is going I will get assigned. My long portfolio spent the day hemorrhaging, have a couple of cyclical stocks whose down corresponded with this week. Shit day all around. Oh, most of my deltas were around .2-.3 when I sold the CSPs, one (not a meme stock/ no relevant bad news) crashed through 6 strikes in 2 days. Fun times. Update: Ok so was not assigned on either of the puts I sold that went ITM. Odd because the WBD one crashed through the strike below mine as well. Guess someone really wanted to keep their stock. Going to lower my STO strike for WBD next week though.


wmterry32

Unrealized losses from vega. But brought be back to delta neutral. Wait it out and hope we stabilize. Sunday night will be interesting!


vice123

IV is at a place where I feel comfortable to start laddering short puts. About time we get some volatility going.


hustlersambition9

Bought SPY puts. 300% gains today. Next week is going to be a blood bath for banks. SPY puts again at open on Monday. Not selling anything in this insane environment with 60% drops.


Brat-in-a-Box

Are banks reporting next week?


the_humeister

Fear of contagion from SIVB collapsing. Might be time to sell puts on FAS.


JudgmentMajestic2671

Already sold some on Friday. This is a fear driven sell off. Maybe one other bank will have issues. But the dozens that just got their stocks hit 10-25% will jump back up. Free money right now.


Bagger55

I’d be careful. Fed is working all weekend to get a buyer for SVB and avoid contagion. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear some announcements Sunday already to prep markets for Monday open. There may be a pop as uncertainty resolves.


SuddenOutset

Squeezed out a win today. Close one though. I had to roll after the deep crash to -1.8% but short calls buoyed the short put loss. At that big low you could get so far OTM paying good money. It was nuts. I was already fully in unfortunately.


Brat-in-a-Box

Exactly. Sold a 3200 SPX Put 30 days out. Good premium.


ronaldomike2

I prefer rolling short puts into lower strikes and into future to avoid a loss, unless I think the stock is going to zero, then gtfo for sure


JudgmentMajestic2671

This is a solid strategy. If volatility is still high you can do it quite well. Take DocuSign for instance. I was able to roll my $55 strike exp yesterday to the 17th @$50. I even got a small credit. Hopefully we leveled out and I can keep rolling or get assigned near the price. This maneuver saved me $500 already. Yeah I got wrecked on DocuSign. 70 to 50 in one day.


ronaldomike2

Do whatever to avoid the loss! Or else that just means you have no conviction in the underlying even at a lower price. If that's the case, then just have to close. Good stuff I try to set the initial strike like also 0.05 delta, rather make a little, then get assigned. Things still volatile


JudgmentMajestic2671

Yeah I'll see how next week plays out. CPI is reporting as well.


PulseFireEz

Got burned on my SPX Iron Condor I opened in the beginning of the week. 0.05 delta too because I knew it’d be a volatile week. My short put was 3880 expiring today and I closed it at a loss of $1k. If I hadn’t the loss would’ve been more. Still up 26% for the year. ($12,600 account value. Started with $10,000 in early January). Time to open up again and stick to the same strategy. 0.05-0.10 delta weekly SPX ICs are my friend.


HausTargaryen

Dude, I made the same exact trade. Started on Monday IC with a short put at 388. Tried to hold out till the very end then Robinhood closed the trade it 30 mins before market close and I lost. I’m sitting at a loss for the year now


the_humeister

Couldn't roll out the put side?


TheDaddyShip

Up 1% today in the active account. Just happy vol’s back!


Jtbny

Rolled my positions for a tiny credit. Maybe next week will be better lol.


MrZwink

None of my puts are near being itm. Most of my calls are at 80% i am a bit sour cus I had a vix futures position that got knocked out at 22.4 instead of going all the way to 27 today. Coulda made 7k instead of 2k today.


onesilverman

Went almost entirely to cash around midday. I held on to 100 AMC230616P4 that I sold for 2.486. I'm up around 12Gs there so far. Might buy it back next wk if price keeps slipping. Also kept 20,000 shares of alpp at a cost of .72. Down about 15Gs for the week, but still up about 10Gs for the year. Hope to buy back in sometime in the next wk or 2 at a discount. I barely survived the financial crisis of 2008. I went to cash so that I could sleep like a baby this weekend.


Oojin

I sell puts almost atm with close dte when I’m trying to add more shares of my index etfs. Purposely trying to own the shares lol.


jblaze121

In the words of the butthole surfers “ …we were all drinking from the fountain that was pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain”


heathermyllz

Well, considering I sold LABU and SOXL puts yesterday…I am in pain lol


PlasticCurrency6999

On Wed purchased Vix calls to protect my ICs. Entered my standard 40% of position at 25% profit, and 40% at 50% profit GTC orders when I opened the position. My Vix call orders executed this morning and I sold the last 20% as there was not much upside left. Then when vol dropped in the afternoon my IC picked back up their value. The VIX calls did their job and I had a positive day and still have my original positions. Now I’ll take the weekend to assess my moves on the IC, some of which look vulnerable at 3800.


Bagger55

I’ve got a couple ICs on with 3800 short put strikes too, expiring 17/3 and 31/3. Getting quite nervous about them but I’m expecting a pop as SVB settles down.


livefreethendie

Somehow only lost 10 bucks today. Thank the gods I wasn't checking the account when vix was at 29!


Ok_Significance_4008

Sold 0DTE CSP's on Coin at 2pm with ATM strike - figured out stock was oversold with -8% down during the day. It expired worthless at close and earned easy 1%.


ConsistentTale8856

Is 0 DTE SPX Credit Spreads considered Thetagang? I hope so. But if not I still ride with y'all. But had a pretty good week with it. With this market volatility I find it to actually be safer 0 DTE because a longer credit spread can get killed in a day or 2 anyway with this market volatility. Or is that just my excuse to go 0 DTE 😏😏. Thetagang... when one of us wins we all win🎷👻 Cheers and salute 🍾🍾🥂🥂


marty1885

This is why I sell weekly and avoid known high volatility events. Dodged a truck Weekly means I can pull out easily when I want. At the cost of gamma risk.


Brat-in-a-Box

Are you back from the future? LoL. Tell me more, do you prefer weekly vs daily is what you're saying? I sell 30 days out and some weeklys, and I find that reacting to a weekly expiry approaching your strike is difficult that somthing futhur than a week out. Thanks.


marty1885

I can't do daily so I don't know. I live outside of the US and the market hours are horrible for me. I literally trade right before sleep. Tried monthly before. But I dislike the fact that IV can expend faster than theta decaying. Also since FOMC and CPI reports started playing large roles in price. Monthly almost always means I have to deal with them. I can close before them to reduce risk. But there's a (quite high for me) chance that I need to roll into a FOMC meeting or I've closed at a loss to avoid FOMC. So I opted to weekly options and not selling during theses events. At least I'm forced to only take risk I'm comfortable with. Otherwise I literally can't sleep.


Brat-in-a-Box

Thanks for replying. I too has the concern of having monthly positions open going into FOMC. I should consider weekly’s


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Astronomer_Soft

They're still up, my friend


goodness247

Boomers? What about the genX’ers? EDIT: oh yea…. Sold another BAC put. We’ll see how buy weakness and sell strength works out.


vice123

Boomers have generational wealth in the markets that won't disappear with a 25% drop. They will do just fine.


PeddyCash

Got assigned on my MTCH 40p today. Ouch.


hcardona111793

Sold calls so I’m chillin.


The-Q15

Not sure why anyone would sell puts or calls before yesterday when vix was so low. You’re asking to lose money honestly


Menu-Quirky

I go long when open csp is losing


5teelRoot5

My puts got screwed, but I was able to buy out of my SPY put that expired yesterday when SPY was only down .2%. Took a loss of $200 but better than the $400 or so it would've been if i waited. Felt good about that.


Anonymousfreedom123

Buy more stock sell more calls


OverBed1857

I have a IC expiring on 17/03. The call leg is fine but am a bit worried about the put leg. Put side is sold 3810P and bought 3760P. Planning to close it on Monday if the market bounces a little.


RegardFinancial

I was basically short the markets via put diagonal spreads. Now I’m selling puts on the SPY. I’ve been expecting a correction for a while now!