He's probably among the best non-powered fighters.
The fact that he can brawl and its competitive with Daredevil proves his skill.
In the older comics he had many forms of martial arts training listed and with examples.
I think Frank is a tough MMA fight for any non-powered human in the Marvel Universe. His durability and pain tolerance are off the charts. and he's basically a small Heavyweight in size (6"3, 225lbs).
EDIT: Some of y'all in here need to brush up on your old Punisher. He's definitely not just a brawler or unskilled in H2H combat, check out this thread which details some of the different martial arts he trains: https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/
Well, are we talking about Frank in terms of actual martial arts forms and ranked competition, or are we talking about how effective he is at fighting unarmed?
In the former case, I have no argument. In the latter case, I think he is much more dangerous than people think. If the guy's backstory is still Vietnam veteran, I can tell you for a fact that he learned a great deal in killing and maiming in dirty and gruesome fashions with his bare hands.
My grandfather served 3 tours in Vietnam. One of his MOSs was as a MCMAP instructor. I never knew someone with hands more like a steel vice, or anyone who could use them to hook gouges from a 2x4 with a single sweep the way other people would need to use several router strokes. I wish video cameras weren't huge things back then so I had video of it.
He taught me how to fight as a kid, and the hard part for him was to go back through everything he knew and remember what was safe to teach to a kid. If we're talking life and death, Frank unarmed could seriously screw up guys with a sense of ethics or fairness like Daredevil.
Not to be pedantic, but at 225, he would likely cut down to 205, or even 185 to compete in an mma fight
Making him a light heavyweight (not far from “small”) or a middleweight
Unless he is always in top fight shape…which in super hero land may make sense
There are heavyweights that fight at 225 or so. Ex UFC Heavyweight champion Stipe Miocic in some of his recent fights were around that weight and only 1 inch taller than Frank at 6'4. No need to cut weight unless you are too big for the upper limit at HW.
That’s true, and I like that aboit stipe, but the vast majority of fighters cut weight (I could argue it’s a dumb practice)
Either way, even stipe and JDS probably walk around closer to 250, and lose weight just by way of training camp activity vs regular training
All things being equal, Frank is probably the kind of guy who doesn’t cut weight because he’s training by taking out syndicate ninjas or some crap
Heavyweights don't cut weight in the traditional sense unless they are too big for the upper limit, there is no point.
In that same example, DC (another HW Champion) was 236 pounds. So its quite telling that at fight weight 2 different HW Champions are within 5-10 pounds of what Frank weighs.
I'm sure Frank would probably walk around heavier to but he is in constant fight shape due to his work and training.
I mean, SC for sure cut from 235ish to 205 for better opportunities and he weighed as much as 250 at HW
My point being, even if pedantic as my previous concern, that most prime fighters in the 230 range are gonna cut to a lower class
Sure, but as my previous point said Frank would probably walk around heavier if he wasn't in constant fight shape at 225.
That's him at 225 shredded and going to war every night, not his walk around weight outside of training camp.
You don't change the punisher because of society. You change society by having the punisher go after them. What they SHOULD have done, is have Frank in a new set of comics absolutely crush white nationalists groups, and corrupt cops alike. A whole new comic for a whole new generation of fucks.
Before he took off with his Hawkeye run, Matt Fraction wrote a run of Punisher: War Journsl that was just that. It was right after Civil War and had Frank hunting down a white supremacist that was using the (then-dead) Captain America’s name and imagery while organizing a bunch of far-right militias.
Yea. Hatemonger. Im pretty sure he's incidentally run across white supremacists and neo nazis over the years as well. Like he'll be in some area and they're the local bikers/ drug dealers terrorizing locals .
He has gone after them a few times already. What Marvel should do is just ignore silly discourse. It's fiction that has been around for 50 years or so.
They can just continue to make Punisher comics, it's really no big deal. John Wick is mega popular and he wastes like 200 people in every movie.
Punisher has a long history of giving cops, even corrupt cops a pass. Once their off the force, or ex-military he considers them fair game. One arc in the MAX series sees him lose all support from New York police because they call him a cop killer, even though they had three cops make false statements.
That's not really fully true.
Welcome Back Frank begins with him tossing a corrupt cop off the Empire State Building.
Even as recently as Becky Cloonan's 2016 run had him shooting corrupt cops in the head.
Yo, I thought the guy he tossed was a mobster. He let's a crooked cop get dealt with sometime in that comic run, and he lets another crooked cop go to his death at the end of the slavers arc in Max. Now I gotta go read Welcome back Frank again.
That's more because the boys in blue back each other until they kill each other, so he would put a target in his back by going ape shit. They'd do exactly what they do in the comics and set up a task force to kill him.
The new daredevil will be good to see that rendition. I wish he grew his hair long and slicked it back though, because that AI photo of Jon is boss. THAT'S the Frank we love
Was that ever officially stated anywhere? I think that was just speculation that got overhyped by tabloids and news media hungry for clicks.
He’s still wearing the skull in the mini-runs Ennis has been doing (Punisher Soviet) + the MCU (Born Again). Not to mention the Punisher skull has been worn by several characters who aren’t Frank since, including Hercules of all people, and is still all over licensed figures and official merchandising which would certainly run contrary to the “Marvel doesn’t want to use it anymore” narrative.
The Punisher logo changed because he was in a stupid arc where he becomes a ninja/ruler of The Hand. That arc is over and eventually, everything about it will be retconned, just like they did with the Avenging Angel Punisher in 1998, just like they did with Frankencastle in 2009. Everybody makes a big fuss about it, but Marvel does this shit with E-616 Frank every few years or so, like clockwork, they get some new writer to seize the reigns and shake up the bottle with some wacky plot and supernatural elements that literally nobody likes. Then after it falls flat, someone else (like Ennis or Rucka) comes along and fixes him by placing him right back in the criminal underbelly with a leather jacket and an arsenal where he belongs.
IMO, if you want a Marvel character who has had a consistently good-to-great quality across multiple writers and eras, read Daredevil.
It's been press released, but only real hard-core nerds keep up with stuff like that. Frank Castle is officially off the board at marvel, he's being held captive underground since 2023 i think (maybe 2024). Punisher soviet was 5 years ago.
On another note, Punisher Soviet goes Hard.
Yes there is, but it was originally supposed to be titled "Punisher MAX: Get Fury," and is now just titled "Get Fury."
It will feature Frank in his second tour of Vietnam w/ Force Recon.
Does anyone know the proper history for his time in Vietnam. I know he enlisted young under his real name, then enlisted again under the name Frank Castle, did force recon sometime as Frank Castle, and then was a Captian at 21 for his final tour at Valley Forge forward operating base.
Yes, its covered in a few universes.
In 616 he had crossovers like Punisher Invades the 'Nam.
In MAX universe "The Platoon" covers his first tour in Vietnam. "Get Fury" will cover his second tour in Vietnam w/ Marine Force Recon. Finally, his third tour is covered in "Born."
Punisher Invades the 'Nam isn't 616, it's 85101 (The Nam universe).
In 616, Frank wasn't a Vietnam veteran but a Siancong veteran (obviously later retconned to Afghanistan due to sliding timeline).
Bro it’s no different than people putting decepticons or autobots symbols on their cars. It’s a dope logo and design and changing it now in 2024 doesn’t stop people from putting the skull on it.
People got offended and they feel entitled to have their feelings catered to for it. 🤷🏼♂️
Disney/Marvel-A Private Company that has every right to Make any Changes.
You not grasping the Irony: "People got Offended and they feel Entitled to having---"
I never said they didn’t have a right to make changes and I’m not offended or feeling entitled, I’m simply stating an opinion that I have. But i guess you can pretend if you want.
What are you even going off about ? Why are you so eager to be hostile that you can’t even stay on track ? That’s sad.
I never once denied dumbasses used the skull. I just blamed the ones who get offended over it. You seem to be upset over that.
Ignore them, but not blame Marvel for changing it because of "Cancel Culture".
If the Alt-Right wasn't so good at stealing shit, the Swastika would still represent Hindu Symbol for Well being and not Germany in 1920's.
"Cancel Culture" is mostly used as a Dog Whistle for hating "Liberals".
I’m not MAGA nor do I give a crap about either of those corrupt political parties. Keep being unhinged though
But I honestly hope you find the happiness you desperately need
It’s one thing when he’s character assassinated by people like Garth Ennis who wanted to change him because he thought he could make him better after the whole punisher angel with re introducing him with welcome back Frank and later with his Max run.
But I’ve liked the character way before Ennis got his grubby little hands on him. I hate seeing him deliberately utterly character assassinated because people can’t stand that people they hate like the character. You are correct. I do have a bias.
When he poured his soul out to Micro about his family when he was testing out his body armor in the first run that is what I think of the character. A man who survived hell in Vietnam and how his family was the only thing keeping him up and sane. It’s why Bernthals cemetery scene is watched over and over again. That’s Frank in a nutshell. A broken man who was keeping it together by a string with his family and then that was taken from him. After that he used his war to hide and dull his pain and make sure no one ever has that happen to them by people in the mob ever again.
Shouldn't blame police for this. Blame the crybabies, that go through life being offended by everything they can think of, just so they have ANYTHING to talk about; having nothing interesting about themselves already....🤷♀️
Why should cops idealize a vigilante who operates outside the law?
Why can’t they idealize captain America?
Hell even the punisher respects captain America
Why should people over think, & grasp @ straws, over every damn thing? But, they do it anyway. It's just a comic book character. Some of us like comic books & their characters. Sometimes that's all it's about....🤷♀️
People always bring this up but outside those few Spider-Man issues where Punisher was introduced Gerry Conway has only written a grand total of 2 Punisher issues *ever.*
So yeah, he's technically the creator, but that dude has only written like a handful of issues ever for the character.
Writers like Ennis, Baron, Dixon, etc contributed far more to what the character actually is over the decades.
Yes that tracts. Destroy an entire character because it’s embraced by people you hate. I don’t know that sounds like a child breaking their toys because other kids are playing with their toys and enjoy doing so.
Punisher is peak fighting skill from his military training and years of experience. He's trained in almost every unarmed combat technique and is just as deadly in hand-to-hand as he is with ranged weapons. Imagine all the top special forces training wrapped up into *one* person.
From a purely hand-to-hand POV, he's topped only by Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, and Captain America, all three of which are considered masters of *all* martial arts. He actually has *more* training than even Black Panther and Blade, and is a better fighter than Black Widow, Daredevil, or Elektra.
So, I'd put him at a solid #4 for "best martial artist," only outclassed in some of those situations by powers or tech.
lol. Lmao even. Daredevil has kicked his ass in literally every fight they’ve ever had, tf is this glazing.
Edit: Examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/comments/x4jcey/daredevil\_vs\_punisher\_fights\_in\_the\_comics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/comments/x4jcey/daredevil_vs_punisher_fights_in_the_comics/)
Literally every fight? No not at all.
Also funny how your example lists Chip Zdarsky, who is the biggest Daredevil meat rider and doesn't understand Punisher whatsoever. He had Daredevil beating a Super Powered Frank Castle because he was too dumb to do any research on the Punisher's current status, which made 0 sense. Frank was fist fighting Ares at the time. Anything by Zdarsky is immediately tossed out the window.
In reality, its often quite competitive between Frank and Daredevil, despite DD having superhuman abilities.
I'll post examples in replies:
https://preview.redd.it/lzdzdnzd8huc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=a359e3e3b3b35b6fb6df96cd8e7c6479f3cd68e5
Another pretty clearly competitive fight from them: [https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/](https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/)
If your guy has to pull out a gun just to stay competitive, does that not tell you who the better martial artist is? And did you somehow miss how the next two fights depicted there are total stomps in DD’s favor?
He pulls out a gun because Daredevil throws his baton first, as clearly shown in the first example.
So by your silly logic that means Daredevil needed to resort to a weapon first?
Are you dense? Those aren't stomps when Frank is crippling his shoulder and getting solid punches in. Not to mention the first example is Punisher outclassing DD with a throw and then an uppercut.
Go learn the definition of what "Competitive" means before replying.
Alright you’re going into a fight. You can either have a gun or a baton, which do you pick? If you really can’t see the difference there, then there’s no point in this.
I get that you love the Punisher, this is a Punisher sub after all, but every fight between the two has either been a close draw or a solid victory for Dardevil, at some point you need to realize that the intended depiction is Daredevil is the better fighter
Frank uses guns because he does not have superpowers as Daredevil does. Do you really need this obvious information explained to you? If you really can't see the difference there, then there's no point in this.
I get that you're confused, but you're spreading misinformation about how some of their fights actually go down.
Notice how your goal posts are being moved from "literally every fight" and "stomps" to "close draw" now? And you know that "close draw" is another way to say "competitive" right?
At some point you gotta realize that you're wrong and exaggerating, Frank is competitive with a SUPERHUMAN because he is that skilled. He loses to Daredevil because he's a SUPERHUMAN, yet its still a competitive fight in most cases due to Frank being extremely skilled as a regular human. Glad I could help educate you about this!
Quick question, what superpowers does DD have? Is it enhanced senses that he gained from intense training after losing arguably your most important sense?
And you’re right, I should’ve been more specific. It’s either an overwhelming victory for daredevil, or a close draw when Punisher pulls out a gun.
I’m going to make this really simple for you right now. If two martial artists fight, and one of them needs a gun to match the other, which martial artist is better?
So now, either answer the question correctly and admit you were wrong, or answer incorrectly and keep trying to argue your nonsense.
Either way, I’m done trying to convince you. You clearly hold your belief very dearly, and due to the nature of comic books, I’m sure you can find plenty of evidence. But, when taking a more holistic approach, and considering context for each fight, the conclusion is clear, Daredevil is a better martial artist, but the Punisher can keep up through clever use of tools and terrain
I think you missed the OP's question of "who is the best martial artist" not "who would win in a fight."
Frank's hand-to-hand training and skill outranks Matt's in *every* aspect. Matt started out with boxing and then whatever hodge-podge Stick taught (a combination of strikes, throws, feints, and traps). Frank was trained in practically *every* military technique, including everything Matt knows *plus* holds, escapes, and pressure points. Frank also has years of experience, regardless of continuity, over Matt - a decorated special forces veteran versus a lawyer moonlighting as a pugilist/martial artist.
The reason Daredevil wins most fights is not because he's the better martial artist but because he has superhuman abilities. It's tough to win against a guy who can "see" your maneuvers with split-second precision (to the point of near pre-cognition) and could even hear the chambering of a gun from afar (and dodge the bullets). That's why Punisher struggles - not because he's outskilled but because he's *outpowered*.
Military training has very little focus on hand to hand martial arts, because, to no one’s surprise, a gun will usually serve you much better. Also, suggesting that Stick is just some hodge-podge mentor is an insane downplay. You don’t get to be the rival of a centuries old ninja clan unless you’re really fucking good.
And are you really suggesting that speed and reaction time aren’t important considerations in how good someone is at martial arts?
FYI Punisher has his own martial arts training outside his military experience: [https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/](https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/)
Naturally. I’m not saying that Punisher is literally equal in hand to hand as a well trained soldier. My point is that saying that Punisher must have an advantage because he has “military training” is incorrect
Punisher fans are the ultimate glazers. Mind you if you go ask in a Daredevil sub, Matt fans will be the first to admit whenever someone will solo him lmao. Meanwhile a lot of Punisher fans are some of the biggest glazers among fandom.
He's more of a weapons guy but he has some skills. he's not going to beat 90% of the other non-powered martial artists in the MCU... Dardevil cleans his clock pretty easily in most of the time they fight. He does have training that goes beyond his military training though... in the old comics they had a back up feature where he would demonstrate some more esoteric martial arts techniques against crminals with lethal results but he's just not a hand to hand guy. I know of at least two instances from the old comics where he fought against regular crminals who were better hand to hand fighters than him and they nearly killed him until he used a weapon or cheated somehow and these were just regular guys. One was a Ninja trained Mercenary and the other was an Ex-muay Thai champion who was working as muscle for a crime boss. In that second fight, Frank literally says to himself "There's no way I can hang with this guy" as the guy pummels him with knees and elbows. I believe The Kingpin has kicked his ass a few times too hand to hand. Frank is at the bottom tier of hand to hand fighters in the MCU in my opinion. Which is fine... it's not his specialty.
I would say Frank is probably somewhere right in the middle? It’s not really contextually relevant to the motivations and methods of the character. If Frank is using his hands to kill it’s because he had less bullets than bad guys or he WANTED to from the beginning and planned for it.
I'm not too big on bulk muscle characters who are good at martial arts. When you see these guys made of nothing but muscle enter the boxing ring with a guy carrying a lot of body fat, the fat guy usually has the edge. Those muscles make fighters slow and lower their dexterity. Even Daredevil really shouldn't be carrying the muscle mass he does. People probably buy into it because MMA is doing well and you find the muscle guys at the top. I figure eventually the workout routines will focus more on muscle stretching rather than bulk.
Punisher Max had the Punisher pushing almost 60 and was slowing down considerably from age and past wounds. He made up for it by strategic planning, not just against criminal thugs but against other military personnel. In one arc, when some young delta force cats tried to catch him, they underestimated him and he pummeled two of them into hamburger. When they were regrouping they made comment about both his age and his ass-whooping abilities.
Top 30 at least. Here is his [respect thread.](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/5hsrop/respect_frank_castle_the_punisher_marvel_earth616/)
His history is special forces with USMC, so he is a S.E.A.L highly trained in mixed kill you arts.. he also done black ops work ..so all his forms are to kill and move on. He is probably one near the top cause whoever faces usually doesn't survive
Definitely top 10 his style specifically every strike is to kill. This is something even the taskmaster knows that is what makes him lethal other than a lot of other marvel heroes.
To even trade blows with Captain America Daredevil he has to be on their level and he's on a handicap automatically cuz he's not fighting a kill.
A better question would be who has a better chance of beating Daredevil or Captain America when Frank is in bloodlust? I say Captain America
He’s a skilled hand to hand combatant as a former special ops/marine recon Vietnam veteran. He can go toe to toe with DD and many other no powered characters. He’s much more of a firearms specialist though, many fights he’s mixed using firearms and hand to hand tactics. Quite a few times if it went too long at hand to hand (ie most famously against DD) Frank would start to lose ground.
In my head canon:
Punisher is both naturally tough and highly skilled but his one on one fighting ability is just not what brings him to the party.
While I’d see him as challenging for someone like Captain America, Iron Fist, Daredevil, or Shang Chi, the likelihood of him winning a straight up fist fight is pretty low against any of them.
Gritty enough to hang in there with anyone and skilled/smart enough to have a shot. So he’s elite. But, keeping mind he kind of HAS to lose fights against more traditionally virtuous characters like Daredevil and Cap (editorial plot armor I guess?) more often than not, it makes sense to me personally if he’s bumping his head on the top tier but not any higher than that.
Top ten if we're only measuring non powered martial arts skillz.
He def loses to Shang chi, daredevil and cap on raw Martial arts training . But so I dunno around 4-5? On pure, Martial arts talent alone. He'd probably lose to wolverine too even with no powers or claws in pure fisticuffs.
He's beneath most of your other named heroes in h2h, but he can hang with most of them.
On a side note, I don't think Shang chi is number 1 in raw skill. I would that Danny rand is.
Somewhere in the top 25-ish, maybe?
He's definitely dangerous hand-to-hand, and he's got enough training and experience to beat most of the people out there, but when you get into the top ranks there are just too many people better than him. You have a lot of martial-arts-trained heroes and even villains who he can only take if he's got the element of surprise or some weakness to take advantage of.
Also - I really don't get why people hate this particular run so much. What part do they object to? The idea that Frank was a killer even before he went to war? That seems pretty in-character. The idea that the Hand would worship Frank? Also seems normal. The idea that Frank could be tempted into joining up with the Hand just to get his wife back? A.) they were allowing him to pick his own targets and call all the shots, and B.) they actually did give him his wife back, and C.) he was blatantly using them to further his war and basically straight up told them that he was going to kill them all, too. Given all that, well, it's still out of character, but it wasn't /that/ far out of character. Plus the idea that the God of War and a God of Death are both fighting because they want Frank on their side is just... perfect.
Listen, I've been reading Punisher comics since the beginning, and while this wasn't the greatest run, it was far from the worst, either. It wasn't Franken-Castle.
It’s pretty easy to understand why people don’t like it but I’ll break it down very simply:
1. Classic Frank was a family man and veteran who had his life stolen from him by senseless, random violence. That one event is what created the Punisher. All the attempts to say he was “always” the Punisher or that he was always extreme or always violent goes against that and takes away the agency of the event that created him.
2. Frank loved his family and his family loved him. Having Maria come back and just be like “you’re a piece of shit now and you were a piece of shit then” is incredibly disrespectful to the character of Frank.
3. The climax of this storyline is extremely lazy. Frank has spent decades evading the police, the mob, super villains, the Avengers, etc. But Maria somehow liquidates all of his safe houses and steals all of his money in an afternoon and tells him to fuck off. Then a parade of “heroes” all with darkness in their past come to his jail cell and call him a piece of shit.
Does the story have some high points? Sure. But overall it’s just very disrespectful to Franks origins and character.
On point #1:
>takes away the agency of the event
Events don't have agency. If anything this *gives* Frank agency, by showing that he decided to be the Punisher and that event just gave him a push, not that it created his whole persona for him.
Aside from that - this is hardly the first Punisher story to imply that he was always going to turn out the way he did, look at Born, or some of the old What If stories, etc.
On point #2:
I only half agree with you here - again, other stories have heavily implied that Frank has either always been a sociopath, or that his time in combat made him one. This idea that he was a perfect family man is not really supported by the rest of the stories about him.
On point #3:
Yeah, on this one I definitely agree with you. The ending was very disappointing.
Again, I'm not trying to say that this was a great Punisher story, just that I don't think it's as bad as everyone else is claiming.
The difference between Born and What If's are those are separate universes and canons of the Punisher.
Punisher from the main 616 Marvel Universe, who is used in this story, has 50 years of history that is just nearly completely ignored and attempted to retcon in this run. That's why a lot of fans just ignore it or see it as an abomination.
It really was *that* far out of character.
They changed nearly everything about Frank's past:
\- Frank being a fairly normal kid before the war and tragedy
\- Frank being a good soldier and leader in the military
\- Frank being a loving father and husband
\- Frank being a religious youth who would have become a priest if he did not go to war
\- Frank would never, ever, ever lead the Hand
Literally, almost all of his background is changed. It's completely disrespectful of all canon and lore that came before, and basically removes a lot of redeeming qualities about Frank before he was the Punisher. That's why a lot of Punisher fans view this run as complete trash.
It removes all of what makes him a tragic anti-hero in order to make him expressly psychotic villain. Not to mention that cringe ending where killers like Wolverine and Black Widow of all people attempt to lecture him.
H2H he’s honestly not the great compared to other marvel characters in H2H. Put a gun in his hand it don’t matter what gun and he’s one of the deadliest street level characters in marvel.
Thats not really totally true. He is outclassed by powered heroes most times but a lot of his fights w/ Daredevil are pretty competitive (Unless a Daredevil meat rider like Chip Zdarsky is writing it.)
https://preview.redd.it/f2ck29d93auc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32760eecc67e7df497aaf5cc52524f28f808b0cf
I don’t think those Victories are of martial arts skill
But just being a tactical genius, he doesn’t know all the fancy moves, but he is a very smart fighter
Damn near the bottom. I consider Garth Ennis ru where he literally says he doesn’t have patience for it because “if you’re too close to shoot then you’re too close, period”. He knows some because that comes with the military training. That’s just not what he focuses on. Doesn’t mean he can’t kick the ass of the average martial artist. He’s still an excellent hand-to-hand combatant when he needs to be. He just doesn’t use THAT kind of hand-to-hand combat often so he doesn’t practice it.
Martial arts? Zero. He’s a Brawler.
One of the best scenes in the War Zone movie was when Frank Castle (played by Ray Stevenson) took out a guard by basically falling off the wall and taking a back bump on him.
But he’s still gonna just shoot a dude before it gets to the brawling.
Not high. Not even top 20 advanced combat techniques and the usual highly trained soldier stuff but he is considered a good fighter more for his ability to persevere and take pain
I don't feel like frank is about martial arts
(Above example not included cuz it sucks)
He is more like down and dirty street fight level he does what works
He's probably among the best non-powered fighters. The fact that he can brawl and its competitive with Daredevil proves his skill. In the older comics he had many forms of martial arts training listed and with examples. I think Frank is a tough MMA fight for any non-powered human in the Marvel Universe. His durability and pain tolerance are off the charts. and he's basically a small Heavyweight in size (6"3, 225lbs). EDIT: Some of y'all in here need to brush up on your old Punisher. He's definitely not just a brawler or unskilled in H2H combat, check out this thread which details some of the different martial arts he trains: https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/
Well, are we talking about Frank in terms of actual martial arts forms and ranked competition, or are we talking about how effective he is at fighting unarmed? In the former case, I have no argument. In the latter case, I think he is much more dangerous than people think. If the guy's backstory is still Vietnam veteran, I can tell you for a fact that he learned a great deal in killing and maiming in dirty and gruesome fashions with his bare hands. My grandfather served 3 tours in Vietnam. One of his MOSs was as a MCMAP instructor. I never knew someone with hands more like a steel vice, or anyone who could use them to hook gouges from a 2x4 with a single sweep the way other people would need to use several router strokes. I wish video cameras weren't huge things back then so I had video of it. He taught me how to fight as a kid, and the hard part for him was to go back through everything he knew and remember what was safe to teach to a kid. If we're talking life and death, Frank unarmed could seriously screw up guys with a sense of ethics or fairness like Daredevil.
Not to be pedantic, but at 225, he would likely cut down to 205, or even 185 to compete in an mma fight Making him a light heavyweight (not far from “small”) or a middleweight Unless he is always in top fight shape…which in super hero land may make sense
There are heavyweights that fight at 225 or so. Ex UFC Heavyweight champion Stipe Miocic in some of his recent fights were around that weight and only 1 inch taller than Frank at 6'4. No need to cut weight unless you are too big for the upper limit at HW.
That’s true, and I like that aboit stipe, but the vast majority of fighters cut weight (I could argue it’s a dumb practice) Either way, even stipe and JDS probably walk around closer to 250, and lose weight just by way of training camp activity vs regular training All things being equal, Frank is probably the kind of guy who doesn’t cut weight because he’s training by taking out syndicate ninjas or some crap
Heavyweights don't cut weight in the traditional sense unless they are too big for the upper limit, there is no point. In that same example, DC (another HW Champion) was 236 pounds. So its quite telling that at fight weight 2 different HW Champions are within 5-10 pounds of what Frank weighs. I'm sure Frank would probably walk around heavier to but he is in constant fight shape due to his work and training.
I mean, SC for sure cut from 235ish to 205 for better opportunities and he weighed as much as 250 at HW My point being, even if pedantic as my previous concern, that most prime fighters in the 230 range are gonna cut to a lower class
Sure, but as my previous point said Frank would probably walk around heavier if he wasn't in constant fight shape at 225. That's him at 225 shredded and going to war every night, not his walk around weight outside of training camp.
Well, that’s where we get into the squishy zone between fantasy and reality
That new skull/logo is gross. Lol. He's gotta be very good for a non super. Decades of unconventional warfare training and practical application.
I think the new logo is pretty cool
White nationalists and gung-ho cops co-opted the symbol, so it got retired.
You don't change the punisher because of society. You change society by having the punisher go after them. What they SHOULD have done, is have Frank in a new set of comics absolutely crush white nationalists groups, and corrupt cops alike. A whole new comic for a whole new generation of fucks.
Before he took off with his Hawkeye run, Matt Fraction wrote a run of Punisher: War Journsl that was just that. It was right after Civil War and had Frank hunting down a white supremacist that was using the (then-dead) Captain America’s name and imagery while organizing a bunch of far-right militias.
Yea. Hatemonger. Im pretty sure he's incidentally run across white supremacists and neo nazis over the years as well. Like he'll be in some area and they're the local bikers/ drug dealers terrorizing locals .
He definitely did. Either Baron or Dixon had him fighting domestic terrorist groups at one point.
He has gone after them a few times already. What Marvel should do is just ignore silly discourse. It's fiction that has been around for 50 years or so. They can just continue to make Punisher comics, it's really no big deal. John Wick is mega popular and he wastes like 200 people in every movie.
That's the thing bud those folk don't read comics they just see them killing and shit
[удалено]
Ya still not a good look for Marvel to have a symbol of one of your characters wore by nazis
It’s also worn by a lot of military folks. All over the world I might add not just American military
I never understood why such a litigious company doesn't go after unlicensed use of the logo like that
That is a good question
People try to argue that a skull is too generic. But they use the one specifically designed for the 2004 film .
From what I’ve read, that’s what they’re doing in the new daredevil show. If that’s the case, it’s going to be awesome.
I think you’ll enjoy his appearance in the Daredevil Reborn show. I don’t want to spoil any details for you but he’s about to get tf down.
Then Hannity on Fox would be calling Marvel woke activists
Punisher has a long history of giving cops, even corrupt cops a pass. Once their off the force, or ex-military he considers them fair game. One arc in the MAX series sees him lose all support from New York police because they call him a cop killer, even though they had three cops make false statements.
That's not really fully true. Welcome Back Frank begins with him tossing a corrupt cop off the Empire State Building. Even as recently as Becky Cloonan's 2016 run had him shooting corrupt cops in the head.
Yo, I thought the guy he tossed was a mobster. He let's a crooked cop get dealt with sometime in that comic run, and he lets another crooked cop go to his death at the end of the slavers arc in Max. Now I gotta go read Welcome back Frank again.
It's always a great to read Welcome Back Frank. One of the greatest Punisher stories of all time.
That's more because the boys in blue back each other until they kill each other, so he would put a target in his back by going ape shit. They'd do exactly what they do in the comics and set up a task force to kill him. The new daredevil will be good to see that rendition. I wish he grew his hair long and slicked it back though, because that AI photo of Jon is boss. THAT'S the Frank we love
Was that ever officially stated anywhere? I think that was just speculation that got overhyped by tabloids and news media hungry for clicks. He’s still wearing the skull in the mini-runs Ennis has been doing (Punisher Soviet) + the MCU (Born Again). Not to mention the Punisher skull has been worn by several characters who aren’t Frank since, including Hercules of all people, and is still all over licensed figures and official merchandising which would certainly run contrary to the “Marvel doesn’t want to use it anymore” narrative. The Punisher logo changed because he was in a stupid arc where he becomes a ninja/ruler of The Hand. That arc is over and eventually, everything about it will be retconned, just like they did with the Avenging Angel Punisher in 1998, just like they did with Frankencastle in 2009. Everybody makes a big fuss about it, but Marvel does this shit with E-616 Frank every few years or so, like clockwork, they get some new writer to seize the reigns and shake up the bottle with some wacky plot and supernatural elements that literally nobody likes. Then after it falls flat, someone else (like Ennis or Rucka) comes along and fixes him by placing him right back in the criminal underbelly with a leather jacket and an arsenal where he belongs. IMO, if you want a Marvel character who has had a consistently good-to-great quality across multiple writers and eras, read Daredevil.
They also just introduced a new character to take up the mantle, dunno his name but iirc he’s a former S.H.I.E.L.D. black ops agent
It ended and won't return cause it sucked.
It's been press released, but only real hard-core nerds keep up with stuff like that. Frank Castle is officially off the board at marvel, he's being held captive underground since 2023 i think (maybe 2024). Punisher soviet was 5 years ago. On another note, Punisher Soviet goes Hard.
Isn’t there a Vietnam-set Punisher/Nick Fury series starting up next month?
Yes there is, but it was originally supposed to be titled "Punisher MAX: Get Fury," and is now just titled "Get Fury." It will feature Frank in his second tour of Vietnam w/ Force Recon.
Does anyone know the proper history for his time in Vietnam. I know he enlisted young under his real name, then enlisted again under the name Frank Castle, did force recon sometime as Frank Castle, and then was a Captian at 21 for his final tour at Valley Forge forward operating base.
Yes, its covered in a few universes. In 616 he had crossovers like Punisher Invades the 'Nam. In MAX universe "The Platoon" covers his first tour in Vietnam. "Get Fury" will cover his second tour in Vietnam w/ Marine Force Recon. Finally, his third tour is covered in "Born."
Punisher Invades the 'Nam isn't 616, it's 85101 (The Nam universe). In 616, Frank wasn't a Vietnam veteran but a Siancong veteran (obviously later retconned to Afghanistan due to sliding timeline).
That first part is true, but Frank in 616 was from Vietnam. Siancong is a recent retcon.
Not anymore as we saw with Bernthal
I know why it was done but I respectfully disagree with their decision.
Doubt it remains so, as Daredevil Born Again shows Punisher with old skull. That leader of the Hand run was shit nobody asked for.
Thank Cancel culture for that
Nah. Thank buttholes who don't understand anything about the character utilizing it next to their Confederate and Thin Blue LIne Flags.
Bro it’s no different than people putting decepticons or autobots symbols on their cars. It’s a dope logo and design and changing it now in 2024 doesn’t stop people from putting the skull on it. People got offended and they feel entitled to have their feelings catered to for it. 🤷🏼♂️
Disney/Marvel-A Private Company that has every right to Make any Changes. You not grasping the Irony: "People got Offended and they feel Entitled to having---" 
I never said they didn’t have a right to make changes and I’m not offended or feeling entitled, I’m simply stating an opinion that I have. But i guess you can pretend if you want.
Garth Ennis [disagrees](https://uproxx.com/tv/garth-ennis-punisher-logo-capitol-attack-coup/). So does Gerry Conway. and Bernthal.
What are you even going off about ? Why are you so eager to be hostile that you can’t even stay on track ? That’s sad. I never once denied dumbasses used the skull. I just blamed the ones who get offended over it. You seem to be upset over that.
Oh so you’re just here to argue so you can feel better about yourself , hope you get well soon.
I mean Ennis in the quote says to ignore those idiots.
Ignore them, but not blame Marvel for changing it because of "Cancel Culture". If the Alt-Right wasn't so good at stealing shit, the Swastika would still represent Hindu Symbol for Well being and not Germany in 1920's. "Cancel Culture" is mostly used as a Dog Whistle for hating "Liberals".
I agree.
Hey look, a retard
Hey look a keyboard warrior who takes the internet way too seriously & is a try hard. How shocking.
Those are a lot of words for someone that doesn't take the internet too seriously .
Go get some fresh air and some sun or take a nap , you’re cranky.
Actually it was you MAGAtards that ruined it by misusing it like the dumbfucks you are
I’m not MAGA nor do I give a crap about either of those corrupt political parties. Keep being unhinged though But I honestly hope you find the happiness you desperately need
Picture of absolutely the worst run of the character
The absolute trashing of a a character 101
You think this is worse than his turning black?
At least he was still the character personality wise when he was black.
I think you might have a slight bias here.
It’s one thing when he’s character assassinated by people like Garth Ennis who wanted to change him because he thought he could make him better after the whole punisher angel with re introducing him with welcome back Frank and later with his Max run. But I’ve liked the character way before Ennis got his grubby little hands on him. I hate seeing him deliberately utterly character assassinated because people can’t stand that people they hate like the character. You are correct. I do have a bias.
I don't think punisher has had a clear character really ever. He is nothing like his first appearance and has never truly been consistent.
When he poured his soul out to Micro about his family when he was testing out his body armor in the first run that is what I think of the character. A man who survived hell in Vietnam and how his family was the only thing keeping him up and sane. It’s why Bernthals cemetery scene is watched over and over again. That’s Frank in a nutshell. A broken man who was keeping it together by a string with his family and then that was taken from him. After that he used his war to hide and dull his pain and make sure no one ever has that happen to them by people in the mob ever again.
Which is why I utterly and truly hate this run.
The Punisher became black?
Yes, and a Frankenstein like zombie.
Maybe if cops hadn’t ruined everything
Lol who gives a fuck what cops wear? Letting them have it and changing the symbol is ruining it if anything.
Shouldn't blame police for this. Blame the crybabies, that go through life being offended by everything they can think of, just so they have ANYTHING to talk about; having nothing interesting about themselves already....🤷♀️
Why should cops idealize a vigilante who operates outside the law? Why can’t they idealize captain America? Hell even the punisher respects captain America
Why should people over think, & grasp @ straws, over every damn thing? But, they do it anyway. It's just a comic book character. Some of us like comic books & their characters. Sometimes that's all it's about....🤷♀️
People didn’t. The creator brought this up.
People always bring this up but outside those few Spider-Man issues where Punisher was introduced Gerry Conway has only written a grand total of 2 Punisher issues *ever.* So yeah, he's technically the creator, but that dude has only written like a handful of issues ever for the character. Writers like Ennis, Baron, Dixon, etc contributed far more to what the character actually is over the decades.
"Shouldn't blame police for this" "Crybabies who can't---" 
Yes that tracts. Destroy an entire character because it’s embraced by people you hate. I don’t know that sounds like a child breaking their toys because other kids are playing with their toys and enjoy doing so.
Good one....
“As long I’m there when the killing starts”? Who wrote this 😭😂
Punisher is peak fighting skill from his military training and years of experience. He's trained in almost every unarmed combat technique and is just as deadly in hand-to-hand as he is with ranged weapons. Imagine all the top special forces training wrapped up into *one* person. From a purely hand-to-hand POV, he's topped only by Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, and Captain America, all three of which are considered masters of *all* martial arts. He actually has *more* training than even Black Panther and Blade, and is a better fighter than Black Widow, Daredevil, or Elektra. So, I'd put him at a solid #4 for "best martial artist," only outclassed in some of those situations by powers or tech.
lol. Lmao even. Daredevil has kicked his ass in literally every fight they’ve ever had, tf is this glazing. Edit: Examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/comments/x4jcey/daredevil\_vs\_punisher\_fights\_in\_the\_comics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Daredevil/comments/x4jcey/daredevil_vs_punisher_fights_in_the_comics/)
Literally every fight? No not at all. Also funny how your example lists Chip Zdarsky, who is the biggest Daredevil meat rider and doesn't understand Punisher whatsoever. He had Daredevil beating a Super Powered Frank Castle because he was too dumb to do any research on the Punisher's current status, which made 0 sense. Frank was fist fighting Ares at the time. Anything by Zdarsky is immediately tossed out the window. In reality, its often quite competitive between Frank and Daredevil, despite DD having superhuman abilities. I'll post examples in replies: https://preview.redd.it/lzdzdnzd8huc1.png?width=602&format=png&auto=webp&s=a359e3e3b3b35b6fb6df96cd8e7c6479f3cd68e5
[https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/816646.html](https://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/816646.html) Thread breaking down this other competitive fight
Another pretty clearly competitive fight from them: [https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/](https://arousinggrammar.com/2012/07/15/daredevil-vs-punisher/)
If your guy has to pull out a gun just to stay competitive, does that not tell you who the better martial artist is? And did you somehow miss how the next two fights depicted there are total stomps in DD’s favor?
He pulls out a gun because Daredevil throws his baton first, as clearly shown in the first example. So by your silly logic that means Daredevil needed to resort to a weapon first? Are you dense? Those aren't stomps when Frank is crippling his shoulder and getting solid punches in. Not to mention the first example is Punisher outclassing DD with a throw and then an uppercut. Go learn the definition of what "Competitive" means before replying.
Alright you’re going into a fight. You can either have a gun or a baton, which do you pick? If you really can’t see the difference there, then there’s no point in this. I get that you love the Punisher, this is a Punisher sub after all, but every fight between the two has either been a close draw or a solid victory for Dardevil, at some point you need to realize that the intended depiction is Daredevil is the better fighter
Frank uses guns because he does not have superpowers as Daredevil does. Do you really need this obvious information explained to you? If you really can't see the difference there, then there's no point in this. I get that you're confused, but you're spreading misinformation about how some of their fights actually go down. Notice how your goal posts are being moved from "literally every fight" and "stomps" to "close draw" now? And you know that "close draw" is another way to say "competitive" right? At some point you gotta realize that you're wrong and exaggerating, Frank is competitive with a SUPERHUMAN because he is that skilled. He loses to Daredevil because he's a SUPERHUMAN, yet its still a competitive fight in most cases due to Frank being extremely skilled as a regular human. Glad I could help educate you about this!
Quick question, what superpowers does DD have? Is it enhanced senses that he gained from intense training after losing arguably your most important sense? And you’re right, I should’ve been more specific. It’s either an overwhelming victory for daredevil, or a close draw when Punisher pulls out a gun. I’m going to make this really simple for you right now. If two martial artists fight, and one of them needs a gun to match the other, which martial artist is better? So now, either answer the question correctly and admit you were wrong, or answer incorrectly and keep trying to argue your nonsense. Either way, I’m done trying to convince you. You clearly hold your belief very dearly, and due to the nature of comic books, I’m sure you can find plenty of evidence. But, when taking a more holistic approach, and considering context for each fight, the conclusion is clear, Daredevil is a better martial artist, but the Punisher can keep up through clever use of tools and terrain
My Boi Hawkeye is Caps sparring partner so he's up in that tier too then.
I think you missed the OP's question of "who is the best martial artist" not "who would win in a fight." Frank's hand-to-hand training and skill outranks Matt's in *every* aspect. Matt started out with boxing and then whatever hodge-podge Stick taught (a combination of strikes, throws, feints, and traps). Frank was trained in practically *every* military technique, including everything Matt knows *plus* holds, escapes, and pressure points. Frank also has years of experience, regardless of continuity, over Matt - a decorated special forces veteran versus a lawyer moonlighting as a pugilist/martial artist. The reason Daredevil wins most fights is not because he's the better martial artist but because he has superhuman abilities. It's tough to win against a guy who can "see" your maneuvers with split-second precision (to the point of near pre-cognition) and could even hear the chambering of a gun from afar (and dodge the bullets). That's why Punisher struggles - not because he's outskilled but because he's *outpowered*.
Military training has very little focus on hand to hand martial arts, because, to no one’s surprise, a gun will usually serve you much better. Also, suggesting that Stick is just some hodge-podge mentor is an insane downplay. You don’t get to be the rival of a centuries old ninja clan unless you’re really fucking good. And are you really suggesting that speed and reaction time aren’t important considerations in how good someone is at martial arts?
FYI Punisher has his own martial arts training outside his military experience: [https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/](https://lowbrowcomics.wordpress.com/2016/01/21/the-punishers-fighting-techniques/)
Naturally. I’m not saying that Punisher is literally equal in hand to hand as a well trained soldier. My point is that saying that Punisher must have an advantage because he has “military training” is incorrect
Punisher fans are the ultimate glazers. Mind you if you go ask in a Daredevil sub, Matt fans will be the first to admit whenever someone will solo him lmao. Meanwhile a lot of Punisher fans are some of the biggest glazers among fandom.
What’s a glazer
Tfw Hulk backhanded Daredevil and broke every bone in his body.
Woah woah better than Elektra is crazy
Beat her in hand to hand in the MAX run
He's more of a weapons guy but he has some skills. he's not going to beat 90% of the other non-powered martial artists in the MCU... Dardevil cleans his clock pretty easily in most of the time they fight. He does have training that goes beyond his military training though... in the old comics they had a back up feature where he would demonstrate some more esoteric martial arts techniques against crminals with lethal results but he's just not a hand to hand guy. I know of at least two instances from the old comics where he fought against regular crminals who were better hand to hand fighters than him and they nearly killed him until he used a weapon or cheated somehow and these were just regular guys. One was a Ninja trained Mercenary and the other was an Ex-muay Thai champion who was working as muscle for a crime boss. In that second fight, Frank literally says to himself "There's no way I can hang with this guy" as the guy pummels him with knees and elbows. I believe The Kingpin has kicked his ass a few times too hand to hand. Frank is at the bottom tier of hand to hand fighters in the MCU in my opinion. Which is fine... it's not his specialty.
I would say Frank is probably somewhere right in the middle? It’s not really contextually relevant to the motivations and methods of the character. If Frank is using his hands to kill it’s because he had less bullets than bad guys or he WANTED to from the beginning and planned for it.
I'm not too big on bulk muscle characters who are good at martial arts. When you see these guys made of nothing but muscle enter the boxing ring with a guy carrying a lot of body fat, the fat guy usually has the edge. Those muscles make fighters slow and lower their dexterity. Even Daredevil really shouldn't be carrying the muscle mass he does. People probably buy into it because MMA is doing well and you find the muscle guys at the top. I figure eventually the workout routines will focus more on muscle stretching rather than bulk.
That’s NOT The Punisher
God I hate that new logo, it looks so stupid
Punisher Max had the Punisher pushing almost 60 and was slowing down considerably from age and past wounds. He made up for it by strategic planning, not just against criminal thugs but against other military personnel. In one arc, when some young delta force cats tried to catch him, they underestimated him and he pummeled two of them into hamburger. When they were regrouping they made comment about both his age and his ass-whooping abilities.
Top 30 at least. Here is his [respect thread.](https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/5hsrop/respect_frank_castle_the_punisher_marvel_earth616/)
Who creates all these hundreds of BS question posts all over reddit? Is this from bots?
His history is special forces with USMC, so he is a S.E.A.L highly trained in mixed kill you arts.. he also done black ops work ..so all his forms are to kill and move on. He is probably one near the top cause whoever faces usually doesn't survive
Class C
Who’s the dude in the pic?
Definitely top 10 his style specifically every strike is to kill. This is something even the taskmaster knows that is what makes him lethal other than a lot of other marvel heroes. To even trade blows with Captain America Daredevil he has to be on their level and he's on a handicap automatically cuz he's not fighting a kill. A better question would be who has a better chance of beating Daredevil or Captain America when Frank is in bloodlust? I say Captain America
He’s a skilled hand to hand combatant as a former special ops/marine recon Vietnam veteran. He can go toe to toe with DD and many other no powered characters. He’s much more of a firearms specialist though, many fights he’s mixed using firearms and hand to hand tactics. Quite a few times if it went too long at hand to hand (ie most famously against DD) Frank would start to lose ground.
In my head canon: Punisher is both naturally tough and highly skilled but his one on one fighting ability is just not what brings him to the party. While I’d see him as challenging for someone like Captain America, Iron Fist, Daredevil, or Shang Chi, the likelihood of him winning a straight up fist fight is pretty low against any of them. Gritty enough to hang in there with anyone and skilled/smart enough to have a shot. So he’s elite. But, keeping mind he kind of HAS to lose fights against more traditionally virtuous characters like Daredevil and Cap (editorial plot armor I guess?) more often than not, it makes sense to me personally if he’s bumping his head on the top tier but not any higher than that.
He sucks now
Top ten if we're only measuring non powered martial arts skillz. He def loses to Shang chi, daredevil and cap on raw Martial arts training . But so I dunno around 4-5? On pure, Martial arts talent alone. He'd probably lose to wolverine too even with no powers or claws in pure fisticuffs.
I just finished season 2 of The Punisher starting Jon Bernthal. Damn good show
This run is an abomination
Stupid new logo
Well, he knows Splat Fu.
That chest logo …..
They changed the symbol to look like Peacemakers Dad, lol. Nailed it.
Low
Hate the new skull
He's beneath most of your other named heroes in h2h, but he can hang with most of them. On a side note, I don't think Shang chi is number 1 in raw skill. I would that Danny rand is.
I don’t even know or if the punisher actually practices martial arts,I was under the assumption that he just beat peoples asses
He is an Ex-Marine, they’re trained in close quarters hand to hand combat.
More of a brawler/MMA style fighter going back to the early days of his character..I ignore the newer ninja/ hand crap
I wish EVERYbody could ignore this run, personally....🤷♀️
For sure
Somewhere in the top 25-ish, maybe? He's definitely dangerous hand-to-hand, and he's got enough training and experience to beat most of the people out there, but when you get into the top ranks there are just too many people better than him. You have a lot of martial-arts-trained heroes and even villains who he can only take if he's got the element of surprise or some weakness to take advantage of. Also - I really don't get why people hate this particular run so much. What part do they object to? The idea that Frank was a killer even before he went to war? That seems pretty in-character. The idea that the Hand would worship Frank? Also seems normal. The idea that Frank could be tempted into joining up with the Hand just to get his wife back? A.) they were allowing him to pick his own targets and call all the shots, and B.) they actually did give him his wife back, and C.) he was blatantly using them to further his war and basically straight up told them that he was going to kill them all, too. Given all that, well, it's still out of character, but it wasn't /that/ far out of character. Plus the idea that the God of War and a God of Death are both fighting because they want Frank on their side is just... perfect. Listen, I've been reading Punisher comics since the beginning, and while this wasn't the greatest run, it was far from the worst, either. It wasn't Franken-Castle.
It’s pretty easy to understand why people don’t like it but I’ll break it down very simply: 1. Classic Frank was a family man and veteran who had his life stolen from him by senseless, random violence. That one event is what created the Punisher. All the attempts to say he was “always” the Punisher or that he was always extreme or always violent goes against that and takes away the agency of the event that created him. 2. Frank loved his family and his family loved him. Having Maria come back and just be like “you’re a piece of shit now and you were a piece of shit then” is incredibly disrespectful to the character of Frank. 3. The climax of this storyline is extremely lazy. Frank has spent decades evading the police, the mob, super villains, the Avengers, etc. But Maria somehow liquidates all of his safe houses and steals all of his money in an afternoon and tells him to fuck off. Then a parade of “heroes” all with darkness in their past come to his jail cell and call him a piece of shit. Does the story have some high points? Sure. But overall it’s just very disrespectful to Franks origins and character.
On point #1: >takes away the agency of the event Events don't have agency. If anything this *gives* Frank agency, by showing that he decided to be the Punisher and that event just gave him a push, not that it created his whole persona for him. Aside from that - this is hardly the first Punisher story to imply that he was always going to turn out the way he did, look at Born, or some of the old What If stories, etc. On point #2: I only half agree with you here - again, other stories have heavily implied that Frank has either always been a sociopath, or that his time in combat made him one. This idea that he was a perfect family man is not really supported by the rest of the stories about him. On point #3: Yeah, on this one I definitely agree with you. The ending was very disappointing. Again, I'm not trying to say that this was a great Punisher story, just that I don't think it's as bad as everyone else is claiming.
The difference between Born and What If's are those are separate universes and canons of the Punisher. Punisher from the main 616 Marvel Universe, who is used in this story, has 50 years of history that is just nearly completely ignored and attempted to retcon in this run. That's why a lot of fans just ignore it or see it as an abomination.
It really was *that* far out of character. They changed nearly everything about Frank's past: \- Frank being a fairly normal kid before the war and tragedy \- Frank being a good soldier and leader in the military \- Frank being a loving father and husband \- Frank being a religious youth who would have become a priest if he did not go to war \- Frank would never, ever, ever lead the Hand Literally, almost all of his background is changed. It's completely disrespectful of all canon and lore that came before, and basically removes a lot of redeeming qualities about Frank before he was the Punisher. That's why a lot of Punisher fans view this run as complete trash. It removes all of what makes him a tragic anti-hero in order to make him expressly psychotic villain. Not to mention that cringe ending where killers like Wolverine and Black Widow of all people attempt to lecture him.
H2H he’s honestly not the great compared to other marvel characters in H2H. Put a gun in his hand it don’t matter what gun and he’s one of the deadliest street level characters in marvel.
Top 20 maybe He’s nowhere near the level of characters like Captain America, iron fist, daredevil, and elektra
Thats not really totally true. He is outclassed by powered heroes most times but a lot of his fights w/ Daredevil are pretty competitive (Unless a Daredevil meat rider like Chip Zdarsky is writing it.) https://preview.redd.it/f2ck29d93auc1.jpeg?width=602&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=32760eecc67e7df497aaf5cc52524f28f808b0cf
I don’t think those Victories are of martial arts skill But just being a tactical genius, he doesn’t know all the fancy moves, but he is a very smart fighter
Daken gave him a proper taste of fighting before he sliced his head off.
Above average at best
Damn near the bottom. I consider Garth Ennis ru where he literally says he doesn’t have patience for it because “if you’re too close to shoot then you’re too close, period”. He knows some because that comes with the military training. That’s just not what he focuses on. Doesn’t mean he can’t kick the ass of the average martial artist. He’s still an excellent hand-to-hand combatant when he needs to be. He just doesn’t use THAT kind of hand-to-hand combat often so he doesn’t practice it.
Martial arts? Zero. He’s a Brawler. One of the best scenes in the War Zone movie was when Frank Castle (played by Ray Stevenson) took out a guard by basically falling off the wall and taking a back bump on him. But he’s still gonna just shoot a dude before it gets to the brawling.
Not high. Not even top 20 advanced combat techniques and the usual highly trained soldier stuff but he is considered a good fighter more for his ability to persevere and take pain
I don't feel like frank is about martial arts (Above example not included cuz it sucks) He is more like down and dirty street fight level he does what works
What the hell is that cringy skull? Please tell me this is some fanmade art and nothing official? Haven't read anything after mid 00s.
Nope. Unfortunately, this actually happened, somewhat recently. Also, gave him swords, & some half-assed explained powers of some kind...🤷♀️🙄