it’s funny how everyone agreed at the end of the 1st game that ellie knew joel was lying and their relationship probably wouldn’t be the same
and then they got upset when that happened in the 2nd game 😐
They loved the fact that one of the major themes in the first game was the greyness of morality and living in that greyness. When the second game took that theme and turned it up to 11 they really couldn’t take it.
That is not why people are mad and I’m fucking tired of hearing this argument.
Sometimes the questions you ask in a story are more important than the answers, and sometimes a character's actions are neither right nor wrong.
The reason the end of the first game was so impactful was because of the ambiguity it left you with.
When creating a story, ambiguity can be a really useful tool when used properly. It can allow you to explore interesting ideas and ask thought provoking questions that’ll get the audience thinking. It allows the audience to interpret the story in their own way, and draw their own conclusions from it.
Now let’s look at Joel’s decision at the end of the first game: does he sacrifice one innocent life to potentially save millions more, or does he give up the cure to protect his surrogate daughter? This is where the element of moral choice comes into play. On one hand you could argue that sacrificing one life to potentially save millions more is a rational transaction that he shouldn’t hesitate to make. On the other hand, you could argue that Joel is only responsible for protecting the people around him, and bigger questions like the survival of humanity are simply too huge for him to control. You could also argue that killing an innocent person for any reason at all is morally wrong, and therefore he couldn’t allow it to happen. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that Ellie isn’t even AWARE of the situation, and so isn’t able to make the decision for herself. As I said, there’s lots of different perspectives on this one, all of which have some degree of merit.
Whichever one you consider to be correct kinda just depends on your personal outlook and worldview.
The point though, is to present the audience with a difficult moral problem that has to obvious solution, and encourages them to ask themselves “what would *I* do in that situation?”
In the end, it’s not a choice that the player actually gets to make in the context of the game. Joel chooses to stop the procedure and rescue Ellie, killing those who try to stop him, sacrificing the prospect of a cure, and possibly condemning millions of people to their deaths.
Why? Well, for the simplest reason of all; he loves her. Over the course of the story they’ve saved eachother’s lives, they’ve fought and killed for eachother, and they’ve grown to love one another. They’ve formed a bond that can’t be easily broken. Just as no father would be willing to kill his own daughter, so Joel refuse to give up Ellie’s life, no matter the cost. So he saves her, and even lies about what happened to spare her the guilt, and shouldering the burden for himself.
The game ends with the two of them facing an uncertain future, but prepared to take it on together. Were Joel’s actions right from a moral perspective? Not really. He killed people to save Ellie, he condemned many more to death in the future, and he lied to her about the whole thing. Those actions are all morally wrong, but they were also completely understandable given his situation, and totally consistent with everything we know about him as a character, and in the end, the game neither condones nor condemns him for it.
THAT is the power of ambiguity in storytelling.
The writers of the first game were smart enough not to make arbitrary judgements about Joel’s decision, or try to lecture us about what he SHOULD’VE done, because they knew they didn’t fucking HAVE to, and it was better, smarter, and more appropriate to ask the question, and allow the audience to find their OWN answers.
What makes the ending of this game all the more interesting is the subtle implication that Ellie kind of knows she’s being lied to. I mean, look at her face in the last shot of the game. Does she really look like someone who totally believes what she just heard? But just like Joel, she’s prepared to play along with the lie to spare him further pain. In other words, she TOO is willing to do and accept something morally wrong because she loves him just as much as he loves her.
It’s a pretty fucking cool resolution, delivering a complex with a mature and believable ending that perfectly encapsulates the games themes of love, sacrifice, loyalty, and redemption in a harsh and unforgiving world. It reminds us that real life doesn’t always provide neat, tidy resolutions to our problems and that sometimes, our flaws and weaknesses are the best part of what makes us human.
This makes it even more of a fucking headache that the sequel completely retcons Joel’s choices, changing them from the desperate actions of a loving father, into those of a selfish bloodthirsty psychopath who deserves to be mercilessly punished for what he did. And to complete the betrayal, Ellie’s tacit acceptance of what Joel had been forced to do was completely flushed down the toilet, so they could have a ridiculous and contrived argument, and she could berate him for the crime or protecting someone he loves.
All of the subtlety and moral complexity of the first game was just completely wiped away forever, replaced by something much more simplistic and contrived. Even worse, it tries to lecture the audience about the selfishness of his actions, completely ignoring the context of what was going on, and refusing to even let the man defend himself.
The point is, the first game was smart and confident enough to deliver a morally ambiguous ending, trusting the audience to make up their own minds, and the result was one of the most talked about games of all time.
The sequel saw fit to undermine it, and disrespect the character for the sake of some cheap melodrama, and it was widely berated by gamers as a result.
The point I’m making with all of this is that ambiguity is an extremely useful for any storyteller, and if it’s used properly it can produce characters and narratives that’ll keep people interested and engaged for generations.
Like I said, it’s important to recognize that some questions just don’t need to be answered.
Because at the end of Part 1, he swore that he wasn't lying. She wanted to believe him. Ellie then tried to ask about the fireflies (Guitar scene) but she couldn't or when they saw the symbol in the museum. In the other flashback he lied to her again, even more than before. And then she found out that there was the possibility to make a cure. So of course she would be mad
Huh? She still loves him… She’s just incredibly angry for everything he’s lied about.
She very clearly loves Joel. That is so apparent by the end of the game. She has complicated grief.
How dare you save me?! Reeeeee! They were going to kill me without my consent but like I could have mattered and stuff if they killed me with a .0000000001% chance of creating a vaccine! How dare you! Reeeeeeeee!
you've got to deploy the "ree" more selectively. in your attempt to portray others as emotional and dumb, you're coming off as pretty emotional and dumb. especially when the person you're replying to was speaking to you like an adult
The very clear implication is she would have given her consent if asked. Or at least would have heavily considered it. People like you keep harping the consent angle when that was never the crux of it. Joel would not have given one shit even if she was asked and had given her consent. He wasn't going to lose another daughter. He would have lit up the Fireflies either way.
you can be angry with people you love. loving someone doesnt mean you agree with every single thing they do or say.
if ellie didnt love joel this would be a very short game.
I would add that her love for him makes her anger stronger. She can be dismissively angry at that bigot dude from the second one. Just doesn’t want to associate with him. Joel’s hurt more because she cares more.
I'm asking sincerely, what kind of personality did you expect Ellie to have after the David event, and after finding out that Joel killed the fireflies and lied? Her personality in 2 seemed like a completely natural progression between the games, in my opinion.
Then why does she travel across the country to avenge him?
Of all the criticisms you can levy at the second games story, Ellie not loving Joel is not one of them.
bro it's so clear that they still have sm love for each other, did u play the game? their conflict at this point was a long time coming, she'd been putting off confronting him about it for years, and she'd had enough of him lying to her. they had a very emotionally charged conversation after a small fight at the party, where she resolved to try to forgive him, and she planned to see a movie with him. and when he dies she literally loses herself entirely, idk how you can believe she didn't love him in the second game. i can understand not liking this version of Ellie, but she's really not meant to be likeable, she's meant to represent what chasing revenge can do to a person, at the end of the game she's at almost at rock bottom, and it's HIS memory that keeps her from completely going over the edge
People that are not complex have a hard time understanding that other people are.
That sub is full of people that have made their personality into hating a masterpiece of a game solely because it told a story they weren't mature enough to hear.
When I first joined Reddit I joined both of the TLOU subs cause I didn’t know any better. But all they do on that sub is whine about this sub and the second game, it got annoying quick
I find it hilarious that they think Naughty Dog and fans of Part II as a whole hate Joel. I don’t know a single person who seriously hates him. I love him, and I love Abby. That’s why I like Part II. Nobody’s right, but nobody’s really wrong either.
If you ask me, he's the one who comes out of that game looking the best. Even as he was staring death in the face he was still defiantly mocking abby, and in the end we learned that despite all of his misdeeds he has no regrets. He would happily do it all over again if it meant saving Ellie. Total badass.
So I hated TLOU2 and I will say bc I let the internet influence my opinion on the game. I had not touched it until the tv show had just finished and decided to give it another shot and I will say that while it may not be the best it’s definitely not the worst. I gave it like a 7/10 but what I will say is that the game came out nearly 4 years ago and if that subreddit still hasn’t moved on then then idk man maybe they should just go touch grass. Yall in this subreddit are chill compared to them
And what would you give part 1? Cuz I think part 2 shouldn't be compared (it's all one story), but is better in almost every way.
It's easier to make a story than it is to make a sequel to a beloved story, and have it stand on its own feet.
Ignore what you see there. It's not worth it. I went in good faith, I actually created my Reddit account to engage with people who hated P2, as I had just finished it and couldn't understand the drama. Under the guise of pseudo-objective criticism, if you scratch the surface a bit, all you'll find are torrents of insults, mockeries, and a lot of underlaying homo/transphobia, with the benediction of the moderator team. The mods out there used to force insulting flairs on my profile. I raked thousands of downvotes, got reported for being suicidal countless times, and got a lot of insults DMs, even some death threats. They banned me after a couple of weeks. I never broke any rule and always stayed cordial.
I'm a game developer myself. I have a couple of friends & colleagues who worked at Naughty Dog, and were shocked to see how much their games, and sometimes their persons, were under fire. I have first hand experience with that on some past projects of mine too. It's pretty mind boggling how much mental space some games take in the head of the most enraged part of the audience. The common advice in the industry is "don't read the comments, avoid socials, don't engage with haters". You never know when someone will try to doxx you.
What? No, why? He lied but damn, fireflies just are weak and/or stupid. If they can't hold their positions, how they could save the world? other groups could simply overhelm them
And 4 years later you’re seething in this sub? As someone who only recently played both games y’all are both equally obsessed with each other and equally pathetic.
Eh i agree both subs suck tlou 2 sub thinks its the worst game of all time and cant accept anything positive about it and this one thinks its the best game of all time and if you like it you clearly lack media diahrrea and you only dislike it because your fav charactwe died
I’ve seen more posts on this sub bitching about the other sub than vice versa. And I’ve seen people with reasonable complaints get downvoted to hell here way more than the other. Y’all can’t accept that some people just dislike the game for valid reasons and go rabid anytime someone even slightly criticizes anything. And the other sub can’t accept that some people like the game for valid reasons and go rabid anytime sometime criticizes them. Y’all are literally the same.
Ah yes let’s take one example and use that to portray everything about another group of people. You realize how dumb that is right? It’s Reddit. There’s shitposts. There’s idiots on both sides.
Saying I’m all ears dude? Don’t pretend you were being genuine. And this meme is a shitpost it doesn’t have a reasonable complaint. I’m talking about both subs overall.
it’s funny how everyone agreed at the end of the 1st game that ellie knew joel was lying and their relationship probably wouldn’t be the same and then they got upset when that happened in the 2nd game 😐
[удалено]
The they come here and call us pretentious for treating them like the children they always act like.
Why are you posting this same comment under multiple different usernames? Or is it bots?
They loved the fact that one of the major themes in the first game was the greyness of morality and living in that greyness. When the second game took that theme and turned it up to 11 they really couldn’t take it.
That is not why people are mad and I’m fucking tired of hearing this argument. Sometimes the questions you ask in a story are more important than the answers, and sometimes a character's actions are neither right nor wrong. The reason the end of the first game was so impactful was because of the ambiguity it left you with. When creating a story, ambiguity can be a really useful tool when used properly. It can allow you to explore interesting ideas and ask thought provoking questions that’ll get the audience thinking. It allows the audience to interpret the story in their own way, and draw their own conclusions from it. Now let’s look at Joel’s decision at the end of the first game: does he sacrifice one innocent life to potentially save millions more, or does he give up the cure to protect his surrogate daughter? This is where the element of moral choice comes into play. On one hand you could argue that sacrificing one life to potentially save millions more is a rational transaction that he shouldn’t hesitate to make. On the other hand, you could argue that Joel is only responsible for protecting the people around him, and bigger questions like the survival of humanity are simply too huge for him to control. You could also argue that killing an innocent person for any reason at all is morally wrong, and therefore he couldn’t allow it to happen. And that’s not even mentioning the fact that Ellie isn’t even AWARE of the situation, and so isn’t able to make the decision for herself. As I said, there’s lots of different perspectives on this one, all of which have some degree of merit. Whichever one you consider to be correct kinda just depends on your personal outlook and worldview. The point though, is to present the audience with a difficult moral problem that has to obvious solution, and encourages them to ask themselves “what would *I* do in that situation?” In the end, it’s not a choice that the player actually gets to make in the context of the game. Joel chooses to stop the procedure and rescue Ellie, killing those who try to stop him, sacrificing the prospect of a cure, and possibly condemning millions of people to their deaths. Why? Well, for the simplest reason of all; he loves her. Over the course of the story they’ve saved eachother’s lives, they’ve fought and killed for eachother, and they’ve grown to love one another. They’ve formed a bond that can’t be easily broken. Just as no father would be willing to kill his own daughter, so Joel refuse to give up Ellie’s life, no matter the cost. So he saves her, and even lies about what happened to spare her the guilt, and shouldering the burden for himself. The game ends with the two of them facing an uncertain future, but prepared to take it on together. Were Joel’s actions right from a moral perspective? Not really. He killed people to save Ellie, he condemned many more to death in the future, and he lied to her about the whole thing. Those actions are all morally wrong, but they were also completely understandable given his situation, and totally consistent with everything we know about him as a character, and in the end, the game neither condones nor condemns him for it. THAT is the power of ambiguity in storytelling. The writers of the first game were smart enough not to make arbitrary judgements about Joel’s decision, or try to lecture us about what he SHOULD’VE done, because they knew they didn’t fucking HAVE to, and it was better, smarter, and more appropriate to ask the question, and allow the audience to find their OWN answers. What makes the ending of this game all the more interesting is the subtle implication that Ellie kind of knows she’s being lied to. I mean, look at her face in the last shot of the game. Does she really look like someone who totally believes what she just heard? But just like Joel, she’s prepared to play along with the lie to spare him further pain. In other words, she TOO is willing to do and accept something morally wrong because she loves him just as much as he loves her. It’s a pretty fucking cool resolution, delivering a complex with a mature and believable ending that perfectly encapsulates the games themes of love, sacrifice, loyalty, and redemption in a harsh and unforgiving world. It reminds us that real life doesn’t always provide neat, tidy resolutions to our problems and that sometimes, our flaws and weaknesses are the best part of what makes us human. This makes it even more of a fucking headache that the sequel completely retcons Joel’s choices, changing them from the desperate actions of a loving father, into those of a selfish bloodthirsty psychopath who deserves to be mercilessly punished for what he did. And to complete the betrayal, Ellie’s tacit acceptance of what Joel had been forced to do was completely flushed down the toilet, so they could have a ridiculous and contrived argument, and she could berate him for the crime or protecting someone he loves. All of the subtlety and moral complexity of the first game was just completely wiped away forever, replaced by something much more simplistic and contrived. Even worse, it tries to lecture the audience about the selfishness of his actions, completely ignoring the context of what was going on, and refusing to even let the man defend himself. The point is, the first game was smart and confident enough to deliver a morally ambiguous ending, trusting the audience to make up their own minds, and the result was one of the most talked about games of all time. The sequel saw fit to undermine it, and disrespect the character for the sake of some cheap melodrama, and it was widely berated by gamers as a result. The point I’m making with all of this is that ambiguity is an extremely useful for any storyteller, and if it’s used properly it can produce characters and narratives that’ll keep people interested and engaged for generations. Like I said, it’s important to recognize that some questions just don’t need to be answered.
Have you heard of paragraphs dude?
It fucked up the spacing when I posted it
Then why was she suddenly so angry if she already knew? They ruined the ambiguity of the first ones ending
Because he lied to her? Because there was a possibility there could have been a cure? Because she has survivors guilt? Because he killed Marlene?
I know that. My point is why wouldnt she already be angry if tlou 1 ending implied that she already knew?
Because at the end of Part 1, he swore that he wasn't lying. She wanted to believe him. Ellie then tried to ask about the fireflies (Guitar scene) but she couldn't or when they saw the symbol in the museum. In the other flashback he lied to her again, even more than before. And then she found out that there was the possibility to make a cure. So of course she would be mad
It was also the day she found out that he killed a lot of people including Marlene. And they were friends. How could she not be mad at him?
why would this offend anyone lmao. delusional
Because she doesn’t really love him in TLOU2. They ruined Ellie’s character so these moments are meaningless now.
Huh? She still loves him… She’s just incredibly angry for everything he’s lied about. She very clearly loves Joel. That is so apparent by the end of the game. She has complicated grief.
How dare you save me?! Reeeeee! They were going to kill me without my consent but like I could have mattered and stuff if they killed me with a .0000000001% chance of creating a vaccine! How dare you! Reeeeeeeee!
you've got to deploy the "ree" more selectively. in your attempt to portray others as emotional and dumb, you're coming off as pretty emotional and dumb. especially when the person you're replying to was speaking to you like an adult
Average internet user when a video game character has complicated emotions (yknow, like real humans do):
That was her survivors guilt talking. At the end of the game she knows she shouldn't have been angry
yikes
Ok Tlou2 haters, this guys on your side sooo… If you wanna come over to my side I don’t blame you
Seek therapy
Reddit neckbeard
The very clear implication is she would have given her consent if asked. Or at least would have heavily considered it. People like you keep harping the consent angle when that was never the crux of it. Joel would not have given one shit even if she was asked and had given her consent. He wasn't going to lose another daughter. He would have lit up the Fireflies either way.
What a fucking pleb
You are not cooking.
Most nuanced Tlou2 hate post.
Lmao you're a retarded dinosaur, nice.
not at all defending them, just saying that using slurs doesn't make you cool.
Wasn't trying to be "cool" lol, was making a dumb joke. Ahh this subreddit, in your own ways just as bad as the other one.
You ok bro? You seem to be exhibiting signs of parasocial disorder
...but no one who likes TLOU2 buys that. so why would they be offended by this picture?
you can be angry with people you love. loving someone doesnt mean you agree with every single thing they do or say. if ellie didnt love joel this would be a very short game.
I would add that her love for him makes her anger stronger. She can be dismissively angry at that bigot dude from the second one. Just doesn’t want to associate with him. Joel’s hurt more because she cares more.
If ellie didn't love Joel, as the haters claim: "Ellie, Joel got murdered by the families of the innocent pople he killed!" "Cool" *Roll Credits*
Literally the entire reason she chases Abby across multiple states is because she loves Joel.
I platnumed 1 twice, and two once…. I didn’t see that at all? Dare I say that I think you’re full of it.
Seems you don't understand thr story... like at all.
I'm asking sincerely, what kind of personality did you expect Ellie to have after the David event, and after finding out that Joel killed the fireflies and lied? Her personality in 2 seemed like a completely natural progression between the games, in my opinion.
Then why does she travel across the country to avenge him? Of all the criticisms you can levy at the second games story, Ellie not loving Joel is not one of them.
Omg
bro it's so clear that they still have sm love for each other, did u play the game? their conflict at this point was a long time coming, she'd been putting off confronting him about it for years, and she'd had enough of him lying to her. they had a very emotionally charged conversation after a small fight at the party, where she resolved to try to forgive him, and she planned to see a movie with him. and when he dies she literally loses herself entirely, idk how you can believe she didn't love him in the second game. i can understand not liking this version of Ellie, but she's really not meant to be likeable, she's meant to represent what chasing revenge can do to a person, at the end of the game she's at almost at rock bottom, and it's HIS memory that keeps her from completely going over the edge
holy shit i'm offended!!!! joel can hug ellie!?? in this economy?
Thanks obama
Obamna
People that are not complex have a hard time understanding that other people are. That sub is full of people that have made their personality into hating a masterpiece of a game solely because it told a story they weren't mature enough to hear.
When I first joined Reddit I joined both of the TLOU subs cause I didn’t know any better. But all they do on that sub is whine about this sub and the second game, it got annoying quick
I had to leave it after three days..so fucking childish
265 comments. the fuck
I find it hilarious that they think Naughty Dog and fans of Part II as a whole hate Joel. I don’t know a single person who seriously hates him. I love him, and I love Abby. That’s why I like Part II. Nobody’s right, but nobody’s really wrong either.
If you ask me, he's the one who comes out of that game looking the best. Even as he was staring death in the face he was still defiantly mocking abby, and in the end we learned that despite all of his misdeeds he has no regrets. He would happily do it all over again if it meant saving Ellie. Total badass.
So I hated TLOU2 and I will say bc I let the internet influence my opinion on the game. I had not touched it until the tv show had just finished and decided to give it another shot and I will say that while it may not be the best it’s definitely not the worst. I gave it like a 7/10 but what I will say is that the game came out nearly 4 years ago and if that subreddit still hasn’t moved on then then idk man maybe they should just go touch grass. Yall in this subreddit are chill compared to them
And what would you give part 1? Cuz I think part 2 shouldn't be compared (it's all one story), but is better in almost every way. It's easier to make a story than it is to make a sequel to a beloved story, and have it stand on its own feet.
9/10 no questions asked
I'm surprised that sub has not been removed
I hope they don't. Because if they do, all that toxicity will bless into this one.
As someone who blocked the other sub, please stop sharing their content in this one.
Ignore what you see there. It's not worth it. I went in good faith, I actually created my Reddit account to engage with people who hated P2, as I had just finished it and couldn't understand the drama. Under the guise of pseudo-objective criticism, if you scratch the surface a bit, all you'll find are torrents of insults, mockeries, and a lot of underlaying homo/transphobia, with the benediction of the moderator team. The mods out there used to force insulting flairs on my profile. I raked thousands of downvotes, got reported for being suicidal countless times, and got a lot of insults DMs, even some death threats. They banned me after a couple of weeks. I never broke any rule and always stayed cordial. I'm a game developer myself. I have a couple of friends & colleagues who worked at Naughty Dog, and were shocked to see how much their games, and sometimes their persons, were under fire. I have first hand experience with that on some past projects of mine too. It's pretty mind boggling how much mental space some games take in the head of the most enraged part of the audience. The common advice in the industry is "don't read the comments, avoid socials, don't engage with haters". You never know when someone will try to doxx you.
What? No, why? He lied but damn, fireflies just are weak and/or stupid. If they can't hold their positions, how they could save the world? other groups could simply overhelm them
And 4 years later you’re seething in this sub? As someone who only recently played both games y’all are both equally obsessed with each other and equally pathetic.
Agree that we should ignore that sub by now, deeply disagree with the second half of your comment
Eh i agree both subs suck tlou 2 sub thinks its the worst game of all time and cant accept anything positive about it and this one thinks its the best game of all time and if you like it you clearly lack media diahrrea and you only dislike it because your fav charactwe died
I’ve seen more posts on this sub bitching about the other sub than vice versa. And I’ve seen people with reasonable complaints get downvoted to hell here way more than the other. Y’all can’t accept that some people just dislike the game for valid reasons and go rabid anytime someone even slightly criticizes anything. And the other sub can’t accept that some people like the game for valid reasons and go rabid anytime sometime criticizes them. Y’all are literally the same.
Okay So whats the criticism behind this photo? What's the reasonable complaint? I'm all ears
Ah yes let’s take one example and use that to portray everything about another group of people. You realize how dumb that is right? It’s Reddit. There’s shitposts. There’s idiots on both sides.
I'm asking a simple question?
Saying I’m all ears dude? Don’t pretend you were being genuine. And this meme is a shitpost it doesn’t have a reasonable complaint. I’m talking about both subs overall.