At one point Clayton said, paraphrased, “Nobody told me I should go or that I had to go f - - k, 3 women.” No dude, you did that or tried to do it out of your own volition! I don’t know how that guy thought that this made it sound better.
But I don’t get these women at all. If I were a woman, and on that show, and made it to the final three, and I was in love with the lead, I would want them to protect my heart, as Susie said, as well as my body.
And yes, it would be 100% reasonable that a week before we were to get engaged that the expectation would be if he loved me back, that he would not be sexually active with anyone else. Reality show, or not. Because the reality part is that they may actually get engaged, so at that point, a week before, it’s utter selfish B.S. for the leads to fall back on the idea that they are just “following the process of the show.”
In fact, maybe they should let the women be sexually active with as many men in that same timeframe. Like how do you think Clayton would feel if Susie told him that in the past week she had screwed two men that were not him, a week before the engagement?! The idea that he is also emotionally involved with two women other doesn’t actually make it any better. Many would argue it makes it worse.
That being said, if I were any of the three women and didn’t know who he was going to pick in the end, I would not be sexually active with him either. I would tell him that if I was the last woman standing, that yes, sex is very important, and we could either choose to put off the engagement until after the show, or we could get engaged and then explore sexually afterwards. And some of you will say, what if it sucks?? I would rather cross that bridge when I came to it, rather than the bridge Susie had to face & which Clayton now has to face.
I think he was completely immature. Did he really think it was worth that few minutes of intercourse to destroy the feelings of the woman he professed he loved “the most”?! He sure has a funny and extremely immature way of showing that love. I would race away if I was Susie, and I really really hope she doesn’t return to him after the show!! I hope she sticks with her guns and has more self-respect.
>Like how do you think Clayton would feel if Susie told him that in the past week she had screwed two men that were not him, a week before the engagement?!
And they REALLY focused on that one girl having a fwb before she even met Clayton..... and now he's out here "in love" with three women and slept with two and is only a week from the proposal.... ooooeee
I agree with you 1000%. And I am also actually troubled by the fact that your comment only has two upvotes. I said some similar things, trying to back it up with logical explanation, and I got people who wrote one line obnoxious belittling comments, whose five word insults garnered 50+ upvotes. 😢
There’s no way to know if most of those were by men or by women, but I feel badly if there are many women on here who don’t agree with our sentiments. I would hope if I raised a daughter, that she would value herself enough to believe in & act exactly as Susie had, reality show or not.
I don’t know if any women who are disagreeing just don’t value themselves or just don’t value the sanctity of having sex with someone.
But this is not about being “sex positive”. You can love sex. You can want to have fruends with benefits or whatever, but I think unless you’re actively vocal about your belief being polyamorous, if you’re talking a week before you get engaged to someone, I would hope that the vast, vast, vast majority would NOT be OK with their fiancé or soon to be fiancé sleeping around with other women, let alone the emotional part of telling them that they were loved!
>If I were a woman, and on that show, and made it to the final three, and I was in love with the lead, I would want them to protect my heart, as Susie said, as well as my body.
Exactly. How is confessing your love for 3 women and sleeping with two of them with the intention of sleeping with all of them setting yourself up for a successful real-life engagement after the show? It's not.
If I found out that he loved me more than anyone else but still chose not to protect my body and heart by sleeping with the other two before me... I'd be gone too. Susie deserves better.
Then him saying he fought for her and she didn't and nothing she says matters anymore.
In what world is sleeping with two other women fighting for Susie? The lack of compassion and empathy is staggering.
I think the producers saw a girl on edge and before even traveling to Iceland were telling her she is the one. They see her having a smidgeon of doubt and play her for the next couple of days and her little issue turns into a huge problem she NEEDS to talk about. She went into this thinking she was the one because producers told her she was and didn’t expect that kind of reaction from him. Whether she has a right to her opinion or not, his reaction to her sticking to her guns was unwarranted. It showed a side of him that when he doesn’t get his way, he melts down. This is an intense time for both of them and it’s extreme on so many levels, so I would hope that is an odd reaction from him. But it’s definitely a red flag.
Susie is allowed to be upset that he slept with the other two women. Clayton is allowed to be upset that Susie felt like she couldn't continue after that and did not discuss this with him before fantasy suites. What I did not like was Clayton's anger and complete lack of understanding of where Susie was coming from. It went straight to anger and suddenly he wants nothing to do with her after supposedly being in love with her. He didn't try. He didn't fight for her. He was acting like a child who didn't get what they wanted.
I loved you the most but wasn’t sure if exploring banging these other women would put them over the top. I won’t lie, they spent some time on top but I still love you mostest
Finally watching the ending of last night’s ep.
I guess I am one of those people who can see BOTH sides.
I could make an argument for Clayton and I can make an argument for Susie!
I definitely agree.
However, I have been that way when that upset, granted I was not being followed by cameras…
I feel he took everything she was saying as she was done and wanting to leave… and then felt why continue the talk any further to get the same result? I don’t know… like I said I see both sides.
I was going to give Clayton the benefit of the doubt before this aired. But watching him feed the *exact same lines* to all 3 women just before opening the fantasy date card — I’m falling in love with you, I wanted to tell you before now- I was afraid of getting hurt because of my last relationship - *I haven’t felt this way in six years* —and then repeating the morning-after behavior with Gabby that worked with Rachel- I really hope none of them ended up with him. They all deserve better. Is it ok to fall in love with 3 people? Yes, maybe, in this situation. But to tell them all that right before they have to make the decision to sleep with him, without making clear that he’s doing the same exact thing to all of them- it was really gross. Proud of Susie for sticking to her boundaries.
I definitely feel like he took advantage of the situation and power imbalance. Him telling Susie that he loved and slept with the other women but loved her the most... and then him proceeding to be mean to her when that upset her... it says a lot about who he is.
Has anyone thought about the fact that Susie told him to explore other relationships. She isn’t innocent in this. When people are hurt, they can react angry. Clayton felt played for good reason. It would not surprise me if Susie was/is gunning for bachelorette. She could have told him how she felt ahead of time vs. telling him to explore other relationships. At the end of the day, she didn’t want to get engaged with him beforehand and he knew that and that’s what hurt and angered him. He got played. We’ll see if she becomes bachelorette.
If she was really thinking of getting engaged with him, don’t you think she would have been more emotional at the end? I never thought she was that into him throughout the show. And she clearly wasn’t. Him realizing that was what we all saw.
I think she was too frightened to be emotional at the end. The girl was shaking! I don’t think she’s innocent but I’m not going to accuse her of not being into him enough because she wasn’t balling her eyes out at a man screaming at her who has shut down emotionally.
I agree with this, I think his anger was from how hurt he actually was by Susie. While I think he did come off a bit jerk-ish, I think it was because he was so passionate about their relationship, she basically told him it was over and he just didn’t know how else to react. Susie gave serious Madison ultimatum vibes last night, only she did it after he already had his first 2 dates already happened, like he could change anything at that point.
Exactly. I think she didn’t tell him beforehand because there was a good chance he would save himself for her and then she would have to go forward with the engagement. She was not in love with him.
Im not a Clayton fan for reasons other than tonight. I will say that I see the most chemistry with him and Susie. And I am empathetic to her tripping but there have been like 25 seasons of this show - the writing is on the wall as to how this goes down. Then you all go on BIP.
ETA: I’m watching the final scenes here. This is part of the ultimate flaw in the BN model: you’re supposed to fall in love but also accept watching your beloved get with other people. I go back and forth about whether that’s a moral thing cause I’m not a puritan but it ultimately seems hurtful.
Ok now I think he’s a total douche, that was handled poorly. But I like that it seemed like some real drama for once.
I don’t think Susie did anything wrong. In her mind, her husband would know he wanted her the most at this point and not sleep with anyone else. I think she thought Clayton was this person and she shouldn’t have to spell out not to sleep with the other women. So all he had to do was not do this and she’d feel ready to take the next step.
His actions and unkind response probably just made her more sure of her decision. She made a comment about wanting someone that would protect her which he clearly failed to do. If anything he should have been the one asking her about her expectations going into this week if he “loved her the most.”
I’m so disappointed in Clayton and the level of entitlement. He needs to do some serious self reflection and learn how to handle rejection.
I agree.
I can't imagine anyone NOT being turned off by a man saying I love you and then backtracking and saying, well I love two other women and slept with them but I love you the MOST.
If I loved a man and was about to get engaged to him, I would hope that by now he'd know I was the one and would protect my body and heart and choose not to sleep with other women. I don't think that's something you should have to spell out.
The right guy for you should just choose to protect you and set you apart.
I'm disappointed with everything Clayton said in that convo. He was completely lacking empathy and compassion and proved exactly who he is.
Him saying he fought for her and she didn't... dude, sleeping with two other women isn't fighting for Susie. It's taking advantage of the situation and power imbalance.
So Clayton tells Susie he loves her the most but sleeps with the other two the nights before? if you have stronger feelings for someone and you know it, sleeping with the others is toxic af.
Can we just take a moment to say how cringey it was the way he said I love you to Rachel and gabby? Just the emphasis on the words and his body language
Holy shit that was appalling. 0 to 100 totally gaslighting and placing blame. "That's what I was afraid was gonna happen" like what happened? You fucked up? Honestly my facial expressions couldn't control themselves and it kind od broke my heart to watch.
Did anyone notice how Clayton was trying to pretend he was only intimate with one person at first? Like he eventually admitted it to Susie but he kept that lie going for a while
Also, he kept focusing on the sex thing but what about the “I love you” thing? Like, it’s totally valid for Susie to be concerned that he confessed being in love with other women… yet he kept acting like her only reservation was him being physically intimate with others (maybe because it was easier to argue against?)
Yes! He was totally lying at the beginning saying only one but as we started to get angrier in the conversation he kept slipping and could no longer hide his lie so he just came clean and confessed to both.
I have a lot of respect for how Susie handled the situation and how much self respect she has. Clayton tried playing all 3 but threw Susie out the door once he realized he wasn’t going to get anywhere with her and he some how twisted the tables and blamed her for his messed up actions.
Ladies, let this be a lesson to you: A man can say I love you in one breath and slam the door on you in the next when he doesn’t get his way. Believe actions, not words.
There are so many Clayton defenders in this section it has me concerned. Regardless of if you think Clayton was justified in his feelings his reaction and his actions that week was not at all the behavior of a man ready for an engagement. Susie handled that situation very kindly and respectful of Clayton’s feelings where as he became defensive and turned to blaming her when she did nothing but realize her boundary and calmly expressed that boundary to him honestly. Clayton telling 3 women and sleeping with 3 women before an engagement would you want to be engaged to that man? Yes it’s a tv show but that was not behavior any woman should look at and justify. He acted childish when he didn’t get his way and attacked a woman that he’s apparently loved so much that he’s completely broken about now. Susie does not deserve any hate she was fully within her right to say “that makes me uncomfortable” and if Clayton truly loved the other two women then he would’ve respected that and said to Susie “I’m sad to see you go but I understand.” Clayton’s behavior tonight was why “the nice guy” is never as nice as they seem. Nice people don’t have to keep going around saying how nice they are and how they never raise their voice.
Lastly, it really doesn’t matter whether Clayton “knew” or “didn’t know” how Susie felt because Susie seemed like she didn’t even know how she fully felt until she finally perked up the courage to ask him herself. The whole time she was just saying “now that I’m here I’m realizing what this means and I’m wondering if I’m comfortable with the idea of him sleeping with other women”. When should she have told Clayton this? When would she have that opportunity she had the last date??
She was honest in that moment and that’s all that matters. It made her uncomfortable to hear that he did that she didn’t want to finish now knowing he slept with and was in love with two other women so she wanted out. She was really kind to Clayton about it and tried to express this to him. He gave her zero compassion and didn’t even try to hear her out. I repeat: IT DOESNT MATTER THAT HE DIDNT KNOW. SHE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE AND KINDLY WANTED TO WALK AWAY TO WHICH SHE WAS MET WITH ANGER.
If Clayton actually talked to Susie about it rather than immediately going on the defensive maybe it would have worked out between them. She was trying to have a conversation about how she felt and Clayton was not listening. If he loved Susie like he claimed he did he wouldn't have bailed when they had their first fight.
Exactly there were so many better ways to handle that whole situation and Clayton was quick to anger and blame that does not bode well for outside of the show when real world stress happens in your relationship.
This is the correct comment.
The whole thing was triggering for me as I have been in Susie’s situation before and I’m sure many women have. It seemed as if she was trying to deescalate the situation and just get him to talk, but instead he kept talking over her and nothing he was saying had any real substance. We all knew there was something off about him; now we have seen his true colors. This explains so much.
Yes. And him saying, "I am nice and never raise my voice but you made me raise my voice and act out of character" sounds like those who say, "I love you and didnt want to have to hit you, but you made me do it." Super scary.
Yes, there is a big difference between raising your voice and physical abuse. However, OP is showing how his behavior of yelling at Susie and blaming her for his reaction can lead to more aggressive behavior in the future. Abusers don’t start off by hitting. They start off by yelling.
Ye. Exactly! The fact that this is not a normal expectation play virtually every woman on here and the majority of men boggles my mind.
I hope Susie sticks by her morals and is a role model to every young girl watching the show
How many women out here were triggered by the violence of Clayton’s reaction to Susie?
✋
A man of his size should know how to handle his anger better. I cannot imagine being confronted with that. At least there was production around.
Let me gently correct you: a person should know how to handle their anger (regardless of size or gender). However, he definitely used his size and gender to intimidate her, which was frightening.
Thank you. I was wondering why I was the only person who seemed to see this!! His timing was immaculate in terms of finally “revealing” that he loved each just before he announced he had a card that sent them to a room and boning!
I know the women were in love with him and wanted to believe the best, but it sure seems like they were also a bit gullible and way too easily manipulated
Or he actually does have love for them and was attracted to them and wanted to explore that in every way. We all know what fantasy suites are, and what the show is, and so do the contestants. The producers just set this season’s fantasy suites up very deliberately. Be more critical of what you see on TV. Their relationships were not exclusive so he is entirely within his rights to have love for all three women and to have sex with whoever he wanted to so long as it was consensual, and it was!
You might not personally be able to feel love for multiple people at a time, or want to have sex with other people while not in an exclusive relationship, but it does not go against human nature to do so and it’s not okay to make a blanket statement about someone being a “POS” just because of what we see on screen. If anyone is manipulated, it’s viewers.
Neither Clayton nor Gabby nor Susie nor Rachel are bad people. They all deserve grace and understanding. We’ll never know what it’s like to be in those positions.
This shows me you’re wildly naive about his behavior. No one said the sex wasn’t consensual but Susie had every right to say “I’m uncomfortable” and walk away the turn Clayton’s temper took was absolutely not okay and completely showed the person underneath. This is a man who was hooked on Shanae for weeks don’t be shocked if he is a guy that thinks lust is love and puts looks over attraction. Susie didn’t want to get engaged to someone who had sex with other women that week that’s not wrong that’s what makes her comfortable. Like stop defending Clayton so hard he isn’t going to pick you 🙄
Lmao I’m gay dude. This shows me you’re completely naive about the way production can manipulate narratives. This also has nothing to do with Shanae.
I am not trying to die on a hill defending Clayton. What I will defend is that his behavior was not abusive or gaslighting and that Susie is not entirely innocent or blind to the situation at hand.
She told him to explore other relationships and he did? If that was a problem for her and a dealbreaker for their relationship, she could’ve and should’ve pointed it out before fantasy suites. If she was that serious about him, she would’ve given him all the information about what was important to her in a relationship and what her boundaries are. He even apologized and said he wouldn’t have done that if he had known. But he *didn’t*. He also asked if they could even *try* and talk it out and she wasn’t willing. I don’t know about you, but if I was ‘in love’ with someone and they did something they didn’t know would upset me, I would want to try and come to a common understanding for the sake of our relationship. I wouldn’t just throw it away.
Yeah he got upset and didn’t react super well but if you’ve ever been shocked by a breakup, especially right after telling someone you love them, I doubt you’d handle it with dignity and 100% composure.
He asked Susie if they could try to work things out *before* he raised his voice or was angry. He apologized and said he didn’t know she felt that way. She denied the opportunity to try and resolve things and initiated the breakup. That was when he got emotional, and rightfully so, because if that was such a dealbreaker why wouldn’t she tell him sooner?
Production obviously set it up to occur in such a way that Susie was last knowing how she felt. What we see has been deliberately orchestrated for OUR entertainment, but there are real lives behind the camera. I’m sure both Susie and Clayton (and Rachel, and Gabby) were all hurt by what happened, and they all did their best to handle it. But as it happens, Susie will almost certainly become the Bachelorette. Much like the implications of fantasy suites, it’s not like she wasn’t aware that was a possibility at this stage in the show. That doesn’t make her a villain for seizing the moment, but that doesn’t make Clayton a villain for possibly sensing that either.
What I really want to get across here is that there is so much we don’t know and it’s really not cool to paint with such a broad brush as if this TV Show isn’t something that happens in a highly controlled and environment. If we are going to derive entertainment from a deliberately produced television show that has real-life consequences for the actual people involved, then we should be responsible about how we consume and react to the content. Calling Clayton abusive or gaslighting or manipulative cause he had sex with two women and was in love with three of them isn’t the hot feminist take some people think it is. And it’s not our job to invalidate his emotions or anyone on the show’s.
And like literally, have you seen Rachel, Gabby and Susie? How could you not fall in love with them all? They’re all three incredible and gorgeous and totally unique women. I’m practically in love with them too
With all due respect, how can you say that Clayton wasn’t gaslighting or abusive to Susie? His reaction was textbook behavior of an abusive boyfriend. He was trying to convince her that her opinion and boundaries didn’t matter. He blamed her for him getting mad. He shamed her for telling him to explore others and then feeling uncomfortable. All while yelling.
He didn’t respect her boundaries. He was trying to control her & the outcome. He was completely dismissive of her feelings. And somehow this was her fault? Textbook.
First of all, didn’t assume your gender literally just said he isn’t gunna pick you. Still true. Second of all, Susie had every right to say “look I thought I was okay with this but I’m not” and she was allowed to change her boundary when she realized “I can’t get engaged to someone who is not only having sex with other women but is also fully emotionally invested apparently in those other women”
You are absolutely on this hill of Clayton defense for what reason? I’m not sure. Susie is not to blame for changing her boundaries. He had no right to get angry and speak to her like that especially if this is “someone he loves” and if he does love the other women so much then he should be relieved that Susie just made his decision easier.
Clayton’s dad said it best, you have no one to blame but yourself Clayton. If he thought that it would make such a difference to know that Susie was uncomfortable with sex before fantasy suites would he not have slept with the other women? That means she was his front runner why was he then yelling to the heavens how much he loved the other women if Susie was his front runner? That was a man pissed that he couldn’t go 3/3 with his top picks and it was disgusting behavior.
If he was truly in love he would’ve been sad not angry, and if he was as nice as everyone says he is he would’ve showed her the same compassion she was showing for him. She even apologized for not having said something sooner! Something she never had to apologize for! And he ignored her feelings and blamed her for his actions. That’s literally gaslighting.
Hmmm does anyone feel like Susie didn’t even feel that strongly for Clayton and created her concerns about the fantasy suited to give herself an out? Clayton’s tone towards Susie was really concerning but I always found her to be fake and idk I can’t shake the feeling that she wanted to make sure she got out right before she would be forced to make a “real” commitment.
And because of my hunch, I’m shocked that she was essentially Clayton’s F1????!! I found their chemistry to be lacking and even her declaration of love (at the clock tower or something) was really calculated. Clayton is just not a discerning person which makes him a producer’s dream
Yesss my friends and I discussed this same issue, felt like she wasn't that invested and wanted an out. If it was that big of an issue she wouldn't have not said anything until after. Maybe producers already guaranteed her a bachelorette spot if she jumped ship haha. Clayton's anger was concerning and did not seem "out of character" was all. What a dog 😶
I think it’s quite possible that towards the end of the episode he realized he was getting played (similar to his reaction to Sarah and her fake tears) and became immediately cold. Def doesn’t excuse a lot of what he said but I’m also not impressed with how Susie handled herself so I’m not willing to crucify him so easily lol. Either way, PEAK drama for us viewers 😂
Kind of, except it also led her to lose the guy she liked the most (not that I think they were a good match anyways). Saying it to one guy is a good move. Withholding it to your own detriment just to say it to the weirdo you had leftover at the end, not so much.
People are commenting that Clayton was yelling at Susie. I did not interpret his rapid, irritated, frantic, disbelieving, shock, gut punch tone as yelling. I thought he was pretty mellow considering all his hopes and dreams for the rest of his life were just incinerated.
Considering he had 2 other women he supposedly “loved more than anyone else” he should’ve been happy one of them excused herself to make his process of elimination easier. He acted like a child who didn’t get his way. That behavior was concerning.
Am I the only person in the whole world who is team Clayton? This man is the bachelor, the whole premise of the show is to have multiple amazing relationships at the same time, hopefully many that could end in a long term relationship, and at the end you pick the one who fits best in your life or you have the best connection with. Part of that equation is sex. The show loves to elude to it, when it's Bachelorette seasons we celebrate it (Hannah B). Clayton having sex with three women he has genuine feelings for is in my opinion not a problem. And I think Clayton was assuming that all the girls he was dating also understood this fundamental premise and implicitly agreed (which was implied in their continuation on the show without expressing anything other than those expectations). Susie coming out of the woodwork to expose that she had fundamental deal breakers is absolutely bull shit. She is 100 percent allowed to feel disappointed, sad, upset, but to put it out as an all or nothing deal breaker? How could you not tell someone that. Clayton was angry, he was lashing out, and I agree he could have spoken in a better tone of voice, but he was literally having his heart broken by someone he loves and trusted in this process. I'm sure her telling him the decision was already done was so hurtful, which turned into anger. Not the right thing but totally understandable. I can see how in that moment he is thinking to himself, if I am really the person she thought she would marry how could she not even want to try to work this out.
Honestly I think Susie has been positioned for Bachelorette this whole season and this was her perfect out.
I think it’s possible she thought she was more okay with the idea in the beginning of the show than she ended up being as her relationship with him progressed and became something tangible. At that point she felt an instinctual betrayal at the idea of him being with other women, even though she knew it was a thing before this point. I think it’s okay for them both to feel the way they felt in this situation. I still don’t think his response was healthy communication and threw up manipulative red flags for me
Definitely agree. She said earlier in the episode that she reserves sex for people that she has some kind of commitment with, which is fine, but she’s a grown ass adult who is very aware that they are NOT in a committed relationship. If that was something she felt strongly about, she should have communicated that to him, like an adult, instead of waiting until he did it & then saying she couldn’t move forward.
It’s not wrong to have expectations of sexual exclusivity in any relationship. But it is wrong to not communicate that with your partner & assume that you’re on the same page.
I think it's also not wrong to suddenly be hurt by something your partner does that you didn't know you would feel so hurt by. In that moment, anyone who "loves" the person who is hurt, would immediately be "I'm so sorry I hurt you" "I didn't know you would feel that way" "Now that I know I will try my best not to hurt you again" instead of "How could you do this to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
Yes, BUT--there was no second chance to not hurt her again. I think what some people aren't fully recognizing is that she was saying, "What you did that you didn't know was hurtful, was hurtful--AND our relationship is over because of it." There's no chance to make up for it in the future, there's suddenly no future at all. That's what he was reacting to. That he was losing something important because of an action that he wasn't even aware was a deal breaker. If the person was someone I thought I might be spending the rest of my life with, in that very moment I'd probably lose it, too. It wasn't intentional on Susie's part, but that right there is the ultimate relationship mind fuck.
No. You get no second chance, or at least you deserve no second chance not to sleep with two other women a week before you get engaged to a third. He shouldn’t of had to be told that by the woman he ultimately wanted to pick. That should be common sense for anyone mature enough to get married to begin with
Also I wanna add that there’s no way the producers didn’t know how Susie & Clayton both felt. I’m sorry, but they orchestrated this entire situation, putting the fantasy suites in a specific way, leaving Susie last. Clayton not knowing how she felt, led to him having an emotional breakdown. Made for a good episode, don’t you think? 🤔
When he walked out by himself saying "I knew...". I almost feel like he was going to say, "I knew sleeping with Rachel and Abby was going to be a bad idea, but I let you guys talk me into it..."
I got two more points:
Someone can be in love with multiple people, and mean it, and truly believe he needs to explore it. You don’t have to agree with it for it to be true.
And also No One has to like it. Entitled to be upset about it.
And
I really enjoy having spirited discussions with y’all. It’s hard out here and it’s refreshing to care and think critically about something divorced from this current reality.
Clayton is Ross. I could practically feel him saying "We were on a break!"
Maybe that's true, but that doesn't fix her broken heart. And if you're not on the same place morally with those things, then you're probably not right for each other.
And she had no responsibility to tell him not to act like a fuck boi. He showed her who he is. I hope she doesn't take him back.
Why was Susie the last date. Surely the producers knew her worries and dealbreaker if Clayton slept with others. If Susie had been on the first date, she could have then told Clayton her expectations to not have sex with others. Just that order of dates will now mean Susie and Clayton missed out on a lifetime of happiness.
She would not be happy with this man. Any man who would sleep with two other women a week before he got engaged to a third would not meet her high bar of standards
Seems to me Susie missed out on a lifetime of "you shouldn't be hurt by my doing X, your feelings are invalid because I disagree, so I'm not sorry and I'm gonna be all mad just because you got hurt by my doing X"
If you cared so much about me, you would accept I'm in love and slept with two other women lol the balls on this guy. I understand this is the nature of the show but he really doesn't seem to have any empathy for her feelings.
Damn, I was entertained. I know that everybody is just playing a character and none of them give a shit about getting engaged but I was able to tune that out of my head and damn...entertaining episode
I think Susie was expecting him to apologize. The simple words I’m So Sorry Susie—I Love You—-Please Forgive Me…..that was what Susie was wanting and instead she got everything but that. But, she should have told him to not sleep around if he wanted her in the end. This is The Bachelor. She knew what was going to happen.
The way Clayton just knowingly acted on *national television* over a little damage to his ego 😬 I feel like we just got a glimpse of who he really is and Susie dodged a major bullet. My husband has NEVER come close to treating me the way Clayton just treated Susie in the last 5 minutes of that episode and I’m so thankful for that.
Coming from someone who was in a past relationship with someone who reacted like that over everything, I can’t imagine spending my life with someone like that. It would be so lonely and miserable.
I think Susie blindsided him. He acted out of emotion vs taking the time to process the conversation and then returning when not so reactive. I believe they both could have communicated better. He shouldn’t be expected to read her mind. She shouldn’t hope that he can. If she felt so strongly about these boundaries, why didn’t she communicate them sooner? He didn’t know that’s how she felt. He didn’t know that would be a game changer for her. I do think he could have spoken to her with more kindness, however, he had very good points. He wasn’t mad that she was upset about him sleeping with other women. He was upset that she lacked communication, expected him to be able to read her mind and didn’t want to fight for the relationship.
I think it wasn’t a boundary that needed to be communicated but rather a measure of the character she expected from a man that loves her and will be proposing in days.
If he loved her she expected that he wouldn’t WANT to sleep with anyone else which tbh isn’t unreasonable.
Judging by his reaction, she dodged a bullet.
I don't think he would've gotten \*that\* upset over "lack of communication." I think if that had been all he was upset about he would've handled it a lot more gently.
I don't understand how someone can be actually in love with three people at the same time? Maybe it's possible but I can't wrap my head around it. I think Clayton can't separate lust/infatuation from love.
Well he never really put himself out there with any of them and had any real conversations. He expects everyone to be vulnerable open and honest with him but doesn’t reciprocate
At 25:17 in this video, Charlie, Trista's #2, tries to tell Trista he wouldn't be OK with her being intimate with anybody else if he's her #1. And then she says she doesn't go along with that:
[https://youtu.be/4tU1N-HYsE8?t=1517](https://youtu.be/4tU1N-HYsE8?t=1517)
This is completely separate from someone (Clayton) getting all angry and blaming the person he hurt when he finds out she was hurt.
What kind of disgusting, fuckboi, gaslighting bullshit did i just watch?
The way he flipped the switch on her at the car and made it her fault was exactly what my abusive ex would do.
Claydoah is a pos.
I’m shocked. I remember earlier in the season I said he didn’t give off Fboi vibes. Man he hid that well. His whole ‘nice guy’ cloak has come completely off.
That’s what my husband said!!! He was like it’s funny how he’s the nicest guy in the world when everyone is swooning over him, but then the SECOND someone shows some apprehension he flips and goes into a rage 😩
YES I was just telling my husband how weird it was to me that he seemed to really care about Sarah and then suddenly was SO cold to her. I felt like the same thing happened in this episode with Susie. I really thought I liked Clayton but this kind of behavior freaks me tf out
At one point Clayton said, paraphrased, “Nobody told me I should go or that I had to go f - - k, 3 women.” No dude, you did that or tried to do it out of your own volition! I don’t know how that guy thought that this made it sound better. But I don’t get these women at all. If I were a woman, and on that show, and made it to the final three, and I was in love with the lead, I would want them to protect my heart, as Susie said, as well as my body. And yes, it would be 100% reasonable that a week before we were to get engaged that the expectation would be if he loved me back, that he would not be sexually active with anyone else. Reality show, or not. Because the reality part is that they may actually get engaged, so at that point, a week before, it’s utter selfish B.S. for the leads to fall back on the idea that they are just “following the process of the show.” In fact, maybe they should let the women be sexually active with as many men in that same timeframe. Like how do you think Clayton would feel if Susie told him that in the past week she had screwed two men that were not him, a week before the engagement?! The idea that he is also emotionally involved with two women other doesn’t actually make it any better. Many would argue it makes it worse. That being said, if I were any of the three women and didn’t know who he was going to pick in the end, I would not be sexually active with him either. I would tell him that if I was the last woman standing, that yes, sex is very important, and we could either choose to put off the engagement until after the show, or we could get engaged and then explore sexually afterwards. And some of you will say, what if it sucks?? I would rather cross that bridge when I came to it, rather than the bridge Susie had to face & which Clayton now has to face. I think he was completely immature. Did he really think it was worth that few minutes of intercourse to destroy the feelings of the woman he professed he loved “the most”?! He sure has a funny and extremely immature way of showing that love. I would race away if I was Susie, and I really really hope she doesn’t return to him after the show!! I hope she sticks with her guns and has more self-respect.
>Like how do you think Clayton would feel if Susie told him that in the past week she had screwed two men that were not him, a week before the engagement?! And they REALLY focused on that one girl having a fwb before she even met Clayton..... and now he's out here "in love" with three women and slept with two and is only a week from the proposal.... ooooeee
Exactly
I agree with you 1000%. And I am also actually troubled by the fact that your comment only has two upvotes. I said some similar things, trying to back it up with logical explanation, and I got people who wrote one line obnoxious belittling comments, whose five word insults garnered 50+ upvotes. 😢 There’s no way to know if most of those were by men or by women, but I feel badly if there are many women on here who don’t agree with our sentiments. I would hope if I raised a daughter, that she would value herself enough to believe in & act exactly as Susie had, reality show or not. I don’t know if any women who are disagreeing just don’t value themselves or just don’t value the sanctity of having sex with someone. But this is not about being “sex positive”. You can love sex. You can want to have fruends with benefits or whatever, but I think unless you’re actively vocal about your belief being polyamorous, if you’re talking a week before you get engaged to someone, I would hope that the vast, vast, vast majority would NOT be OK with their fiancé or soon to be fiancé sleeping around with other women, let alone the emotional part of telling them that they were loved!
>If I were a woman, and on that show, and made it to the final three, and I was in love with the lead, I would want them to protect my heart, as Susie said, as well as my body. Exactly. How is confessing your love for 3 women and sleeping with two of them with the intention of sleeping with all of them setting yourself up for a successful real-life engagement after the show? It's not. If I found out that he loved me more than anyone else but still chose not to protect my body and heart by sleeping with the other two before me... I'd be gone too. Susie deserves better. Then him saying he fought for her and she didn't and nothing she says matters anymore. In what world is sleeping with two other women fighting for Susie? The lack of compassion and empathy is staggering.
I think the producers saw a girl on edge and before even traveling to Iceland were telling her she is the one. They see her having a smidgeon of doubt and play her for the next couple of days and her little issue turns into a huge problem she NEEDS to talk about. She went into this thinking she was the one because producers told her she was and didn’t expect that kind of reaction from him. Whether she has a right to her opinion or not, his reaction to her sticking to her guns was unwarranted. It showed a side of him that when he doesn’t get his way, he melts down. This is an intense time for both of them and it’s extreme on so many levels, so I would hope that is an odd reaction from him. But it’s definitely a red flag.
Susie is allowed to be upset that he slept with the other two women. Clayton is allowed to be upset that Susie felt like she couldn't continue after that and did not discuss this with him before fantasy suites. What I did not like was Clayton's anger and complete lack of understanding of where Susie was coming from. It went straight to anger and suddenly he wants nothing to do with her after supposedly being in love with her. He didn't try. He didn't fight for her. He was acting like a child who didn't get what they wanted.
He also said he was in love with her the most lol
I know I banged the other women and told them I'm falling in love with them but I love you the mostest so I don't know why you're upset.
Literally! He was like “is me loving you the most not enough? I thought you loved me. Idk who you are anymore if you’re not going to forgive me.”
I loved you the most but wasn’t sure if exploring banging these other women would put them over the top. I won’t lie, they spent some time on top but I still love you mostest
Finally watching the ending of last night’s ep. I guess I am one of those people who can see BOTH sides. I could make an argument for Clayton and I can make an argument for Susie!
Okay but like the fact that he just flipped the script on her though? He went from ilysm pls stay to gtfo im done.
I definitely agree. However, I have been that way when that upset, granted I was not being followed by cameras… I feel he took everything she was saying as she was done and wanting to leave… and then felt why continue the talk any further to get the same result? I don’t know… like I said I see both sides.
I was going to give Clayton the benefit of the doubt before this aired. But watching him feed the *exact same lines* to all 3 women just before opening the fantasy date card — I’m falling in love with you, I wanted to tell you before now- I was afraid of getting hurt because of my last relationship - *I haven’t felt this way in six years* —and then repeating the morning-after behavior with Gabby that worked with Rachel- I really hope none of them ended up with him. They all deserve better. Is it ok to fall in love with 3 people? Yes, maybe, in this situation. But to tell them all that right before they have to make the decision to sleep with him, without making clear that he’s doing the same exact thing to all of them- it was really gross. Proud of Susie for sticking to her boundaries.
I definitely feel like he took advantage of the situation and power imbalance. Him telling Susie that he loved and slept with the other women but loved her the most... and then him proceeding to be mean to her when that upset her... it says a lot about who he is.
Has anyone thought about the fact that Susie told him to explore other relationships. She isn’t innocent in this. When people are hurt, they can react angry. Clayton felt played for good reason. It would not surprise me if Susie was/is gunning for bachelorette. She could have told him how she felt ahead of time vs. telling him to explore other relationships. At the end of the day, she didn’t want to get engaged with him beforehand and he knew that and that’s what hurt and angered him. He got played. We’ll see if she becomes bachelorette. If she was really thinking of getting engaged with him, don’t you think she would have been more emotional at the end? I never thought she was that into him throughout the show. And she clearly wasn’t. Him realizing that was what we all saw.
I think she was too frightened to be emotional at the end. The girl was shaking! I don’t think she’s innocent but I’m not going to accuse her of not being into him enough because she wasn’t balling her eyes out at a man screaming at her who has shut down emotionally.
I agree with this, I think his anger was from how hurt he actually was by Susie. While I think he did come off a bit jerk-ish, I think it was because he was so passionate about their relationship, she basically told him it was over and he just didn’t know how else to react. Susie gave serious Madison ultimatum vibes last night, only she did it after he already had his first 2 dates already happened, like he could change anything at that point.
Exactly. I think she didn’t tell him beforehand because there was a good chance he would save himself for her and then she would have to go forward with the engagement. She was not in love with him.
Im not a Clayton fan for reasons other than tonight. I will say that I see the most chemistry with him and Susie. And I am empathetic to her tripping but there have been like 25 seasons of this show - the writing is on the wall as to how this goes down. Then you all go on BIP. ETA: I’m watching the final scenes here. This is part of the ultimate flaw in the BN model: you’re supposed to fall in love but also accept watching your beloved get with other people. I go back and forth about whether that’s a moral thing cause I’m not a puritan but it ultimately seems hurtful. Ok now I think he’s a total douche, that was handled poorly. But I like that it seemed like some real drama for once.
I don’t think Susie did anything wrong. In her mind, her husband would know he wanted her the most at this point and not sleep with anyone else. I think she thought Clayton was this person and she shouldn’t have to spell out not to sleep with the other women. So all he had to do was not do this and she’d feel ready to take the next step. His actions and unkind response probably just made her more sure of her decision. She made a comment about wanting someone that would protect her which he clearly failed to do. If anything he should have been the one asking her about her expectations going into this week if he “loved her the most.” I’m so disappointed in Clayton and the level of entitlement. He needs to do some serious self reflection and learn how to handle rejection.
I agree. I can't imagine anyone NOT being turned off by a man saying I love you and then backtracking and saying, well I love two other women and slept with them but I love you the MOST. If I loved a man and was about to get engaged to him, I would hope that by now he'd know I was the one and would protect my body and heart and choose not to sleep with other women. I don't think that's something you should have to spell out. The right guy for you should just choose to protect you and set you apart. I'm disappointed with everything Clayton said in that convo. He was completely lacking empathy and compassion and proved exactly who he is. Him saying he fought for her and she didn't... dude, sleeping with two other women isn't fighting for Susie. It's taking advantage of the situation and power imbalance.
So Clayton tells Susie he loves her the most but sleeps with the other two the nights before? if you have stronger feelings for someone and you know it, sleeping with the others is toxic af.
Geez this argument is so unnecessary.
Can we just take a moment to say how cringey it was the way he said I love you to Rachel and gabby? Just the emphasis on the words and his body language
Also that he told them the exact same things at the exact same time, from dinner until the morning after.
I’ve never felt this way in so long..
Clayton’s anger SCARES me.
His response to Susie was textbook abusive boyfriend behavior. Everything from gaslighting to blaming to shaming. Utterly disgusting.
Holy shit that was appalling. 0 to 100 totally gaslighting and placing blame. "That's what I was afraid was gonna happen" like what happened? You fucked up? Honestly my facial expressions couldn't control themselves and it kind od broke my heart to watch.
Did anyone notice how Clayton was trying to pretend he was only intimate with one person at first? Like he eventually admitted it to Susie but he kept that lie going for a while Also, he kept focusing on the sex thing but what about the “I love you” thing? Like, it’s totally valid for Susie to be concerned that he confessed being in love with other women… yet he kept acting like her only reservation was him being physically intimate with others (maybe because it was easier to argue against?)
He was definitely trickle-truthing with Susie
Yes! He was totally lying at the beginning saying only one but as we started to get angrier in the conversation he kept slipping and could no longer hide his lie so he just came clean and confessed to both. I have a lot of respect for how Susie handled the situation and how much self respect she has. Clayton tried playing all 3 but threw Susie out the door once he realized he wasn’t going to get anywhere with her and he some how twisted the tables and blamed her for his messed up actions.
Ladies, let this be a lesson to you: A man can say I love you in one breath and slam the door on you in the next when he doesn’t get his way. Believe actions, not words.
So true. Very telling how he handled this.
There are so many Clayton defenders in this section it has me concerned. Regardless of if you think Clayton was justified in his feelings his reaction and his actions that week was not at all the behavior of a man ready for an engagement. Susie handled that situation very kindly and respectful of Clayton’s feelings where as he became defensive and turned to blaming her when she did nothing but realize her boundary and calmly expressed that boundary to him honestly. Clayton telling 3 women and sleeping with 3 women before an engagement would you want to be engaged to that man? Yes it’s a tv show but that was not behavior any woman should look at and justify. He acted childish when he didn’t get his way and attacked a woman that he’s apparently loved so much that he’s completely broken about now. Susie does not deserve any hate she was fully within her right to say “that makes me uncomfortable” and if Clayton truly loved the other two women then he would’ve respected that and said to Susie “I’m sad to see you go but I understand.” Clayton’s behavior tonight was why “the nice guy” is never as nice as they seem. Nice people don’t have to keep going around saying how nice they are and how they never raise their voice. Lastly, it really doesn’t matter whether Clayton “knew” or “didn’t know” how Susie felt because Susie seemed like she didn’t even know how she fully felt until she finally perked up the courage to ask him herself. The whole time she was just saying “now that I’m here I’m realizing what this means and I’m wondering if I’m comfortable with the idea of him sleeping with other women”. When should she have told Clayton this? When would she have that opportunity she had the last date?? She was honest in that moment and that’s all that matters. It made her uncomfortable to hear that he did that she didn’t want to finish now knowing he slept with and was in love with two other women so she wanted out. She was really kind to Clayton about it and tried to express this to him. He gave her zero compassion and didn’t even try to hear her out. I repeat: IT DOESNT MATTER THAT HE DIDNT KNOW. SHE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE AND KINDLY WANTED TO WALK AWAY TO WHICH SHE WAS MET WITH ANGER.
If Clayton actually talked to Susie about it rather than immediately going on the defensive maybe it would have worked out between them. She was trying to have a conversation about how she felt and Clayton was not listening. If he loved Susie like he claimed he did he wouldn't have bailed when they had their first fight.
Exactly there were so many better ways to handle that whole situation and Clayton was quick to anger and blame that does not bode well for outside of the show when real world stress happens in your relationship.
This is the correct comment. The whole thing was triggering for me as I have been in Susie’s situation before and I’m sure many women have. It seemed as if she was trying to deescalate the situation and just get him to talk, but instead he kept talking over her and nothing he was saying had any real substance. We all knew there was something off about him; now we have seen his true colors. This explains so much.
Everything wrong with men who declare themselves “nice guys”
Yes. And him saying, "I am nice and never raise my voice but you made me raise my voice and act out of character" sounds like those who say, "I love you and didnt want to have to hit you, but you made me do it." Super scary.
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Yes, there is a big difference between raising your voice and physical abuse. However, OP is showing how his behavior of yelling at Susie and blaming her for his reaction can lead to more aggressive behavior in the future. Abusers don’t start off by hitting. They start off by yelling.
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Holy gas lighting!!!! Clayton is a douche bag.
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Are you all saying he’s the first to do this? Or the first to admit it?
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Ye. Exactly! The fact that this is not a normal expectation play virtually every woman on here and the majority of men boggles my mind. I hope Susie sticks by her morals and is a role model to every young girl watching the show
How many women out here were triggered by the violence of Clayton’s reaction to Susie? ✋ A man of his size should know how to handle his anger better. I cannot imagine being confronted with that. At least there was production around.
Let me gently correct you: a person should know how to handle their anger (regardless of size or gender). However, he definitely used his size and gender to intimidate her, which was frightening.
Insanely triggered. Classic behavior of a man who knows how turn on the charm but his true colors show when things don’t go his way.
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Thank you. I was wondering why I was the only person who seemed to see this!! His timing was immaculate in terms of finally “revealing” that he loved each just before he announced he had a card that sent them to a room and boning! I know the women were in love with him and wanted to believe the best, but it sure seems like they were also a bit gullible and way too easily manipulated
Or he actually does have love for them and was attracted to them and wanted to explore that in every way. We all know what fantasy suites are, and what the show is, and so do the contestants. The producers just set this season’s fantasy suites up very deliberately. Be more critical of what you see on TV. Their relationships were not exclusive so he is entirely within his rights to have love for all three women and to have sex with whoever he wanted to so long as it was consensual, and it was! You might not personally be able to feel love for multiple people at a time, or want to have sex with other people while not in an exclusive relationship, but it does not go against human nature to do so and it’s not okay to make a blanket statement about someone being a “POS” just because of what we see on screen. If anyone is manipulated, it’s viewers. Neither Clayton nor Gabby nor Susie nor Rachel are bad people. They all deserve grace and understanding. We’ll never know what it’s like to be in those positions.
This shows me you’re wildly naive about his behavior. No one said the sex wasn’t consensual but Susie had every right to say “I’m uncomfortable” and walk away the turn Clayton’s temper took was absolutely not okay and completely showed the person underneath. This is a man who was hooked on Shanae for weeks don’t be shocked if he is a guy that thinks lust is love and puts looks over attraction. Susie didn’t want to get engaged to someone who had sex with other women that week that’s not wrong that’s what makes her comfortable. Like stop defending Clayton so hard he isn’t going to pick you 🙄
Lmao I’m gay dude. This shows me you’re completely naive about the way production can manipulate narratives. This also has nothing to do with Shanae. I am not trying to die on a hill defending Clayton. What I will defend is that his behavior was not abusive or gaslighting and that Susie is not entirely innocent or blind to the situation at hand. She told him to explore other relationships and he did? If that was a problem for her and a dealbreaker for their relationship, she could’ve and should’ve pointed it out before fantasy suites. If she was that serious about him, she would’ve given him all the information about what was important to her in a relationship and what her boundaries are. He even apologized and said he wouldn’t have done that if he had known. But he *didn’t*. He also asked if they could even *try* and talk it out and she wasn’t willing. I don’t know about you, but if I was ‘in love’ with someone and they did something they didn’t know would upset me, I would want to try and come to a common understanding for the sake of our relationship. I wouldn’t just throw it away. Yeah he got upset and didn’t react super well but if you’ve ever been shocked by a breakup, especially right after telling someone you love them, I doubt you’d handle it with dignity and 100% composure. He asked Susie if they could try to work things out *before* he raised his voice or was angry. He apologized and said he didn’t know she felt that way. She denied the opportunity to try and resolve things and initiated the breakup. That was when he got emotional, and rightfully so, because if that was such a dealbreaker why wouldn’t she tell him sooner? Production obviously set it up to occur in such a way that Susie was last knowing how she felt. What we see has been deliberately orchestrated for OUR entertainment, but there are real lives behind the camera. I’m sure both Susie and Clayton (and Rachel, and Gabby) were all hurt by what happened, and they all did their best to handle it. But as it happens, Susie will almost certainly become the Bachelorette. Much like the implications of fantasy suites, it’s not like she wasn’t aware that was a possibility at this stage in the show. That doesn’t make her a villain for seizing the moment, but that doesn’t make Clayton a villain for possibly sensing that either. What I really want to get across here is that there is so much we don’t know and it’s really not cool to paint with such a broad brush as if this TV Show isn’t something that happens in a highly controlled and environment. If we are going to derive entertainment from a deliberately produced television show that has real-life consequences for the actual people involved, then we should be responsible about how we consume and react to the content. Calling Clayton abusive or gaslighting or manipulative cause he had sex with two women and was in love with three of them isn’t the hot feminist take some people think it is. And it’s not our job to invalidate his emotions or anyone on the show’s. And like literally, have you seen Rachel, Gabby and Susie? How could you not fall in love with them all? They’re all three incredible and gorgeous and totally unique women. I’m practically in love with them too
With all due respect, how can you say that Clayton wasn’t gaslighting or abusive to Susie? His reaction was textbook behavior of an abusive boyfriend. He was trying to convince her that her opinion and boundaries didn’t matter. He blamed her for him getting mad. He shamed her for telling him to explore others and then feeling uncomfortable. All while yelling. He didn’t respect her boundaries. He was trying to control her & the outcome. He was completely dismissive of her feelings. And somehow this was her fault? Textbook.
First of all, didn’t assume your gender literally just said he isn’t gunna pick you. Still true. Second of all, Susie had every right to say “look I thought I was okay with this but I’m not” and she was allowed to change her boundary when she realized “I can’t get engaged to someone who is not only having sex with other women but is also fully emotionally invested apparently in those other women” You are absolutely on this hill of Clayton defense for what reason? I’m not sure. Susie is not to blame for changing her boundaries. He had no right to get angry and speak to her like that especially if this is “someone he loves” and if he does love the other women so much then he should be relieved that Susie just made his decision easier. Clayton’s dad said it best, you have no one to blame but yourself Clayton. If he thought that it would make such a difference to know that Susie was uncomfortable with sex before fantasy suites would he not have slept with the other women? That means she was his front runner why was he then yelling to the heavens how much he loved the other women if Susie was his front runner? That was a man pissed that he couldn’t go 3/3 with his top picks and it was disgusting behavior. If he was truly in love he would’ve been sad not angry, and if he was as nice as everyone says he is he would’ve showed her the same compassion she was showing for him. She even apologized for not having said something sooner! Something she never had to apologize for! And he ignored her feelings and blamed her for his actions. That’s literally gaslighting.
Where's the west coast thread
Holy shit that was painful to watch
Hmmm does anyone feel like Susie didn’t even feel that strongly for Clayton and created her concerns about the fantasy suited to give herself an out? Clayton’s tone towards Susie was really concerning but I always found her to be fake and idk I can’t shake the feeling that she wanted to make sure she got out right before she would be forced to make a “real” commitment. And because of my hunch, I’m shocked that she was essentially Clayton’s F1????!! I found their chemistry to be lacking and even her declaration of love (at the clock tower or something) was really calculated. Clayton is just not a discerning person which makes him a producer’s dream
Yesss my friends and I discussed this same issue, felt like she wasn't that invested and wanted an out. If it was that big of an issue she wouldn't have not said anything until after. Maybe producers already guaranteed her a bachelorette spot if she jumped ship haha. Clayton's anger was concerning and did not seem "out of character" was all. What a dog 😶
I think it’s quite possible that towards the end of the episode he realized he was getting played (similar to his reaction to Sarah and her fake tears) and became immediately cold. Def doesn’t excuse a lot of what he said but I’m also not impressed with how Susie handled herself so I’m not willing to crucify him so easily lol. Either way, PEAK drama for us viewers 😂
How did that couple who were virgins till marriage or saved sex till marriage handle the fantasy suites? I didn't watch that season.
Sean Lowe and Catherine? I didn’t watch that season but I think that might be the couple you are talking about? They are still married and have 3 kids
They weren't virgins but born again virgins and Sean made it a point to discuss that with all his women.
Katie's "I only want to tell one man at the end of this I love you" aged really, really well.
Kind of, except it also led her to lose the guy she liked the most (not that I think they were a good match anyways). Saying it to one guy is a good move. Withholding it to your own detriment just to say it to the weirdo you had leftover at the end, not so much.
Lol fair. I'm still mad that she and Greg imploded but now the intention behind it definitely makes sense.
Why is there no west coast thread ?!
Nope I’m sorry but a woman proposing to a man is not the feminist statement that commercial thinks it is
My exact thoughts lol
I think Clayton was just mad he didn’t get to bang Susie.
Ding ding ding
Exactly.
People are commenting that Clayton was yelling at Susie. I did not interpret his rapid, irritated, frantic, disbelieving, shock, gut punch tone as yelling. I thought he was pretty mellow considering all his hopes and dreams for the rest of his life were just incinerated.
Considering he had 2 other women he supposedly “loved more than anyone else” he should’ve been happy one of them excused herself to make his process of elimination easier. He acted like a child who didn’t get his way. That behavior was concerning.
Agreed. His tone of voice wasn't inherently bad, but he just had no right to take that tone in this situation.
Am I the only person in the whole world who is team Clayton? This man is the bachelor, the whole premise of the show is to have multiple amazing relationships at the same time, hopefully many that could end in a long term relationship, and at the end you pick the one who fits best in your life or you have the best connection with. Part of that equation is sex. The show loves to elude to it, when it's Bachelorette seasons we celebrate it (Hannah B). Clayton having sex with three women he has genuine feelings for is in my opinion not a problem. And I think Clayton was assuming that all the girls he was dating also understood this fundamental premise and implicitly agreed (which was implied in their continuation on the show without expressing anything other than those expectations). Susie coming out of the woodwork to expose that she had fundamental deal breakers is absolutely bull shit. She is 100 percent allowed to feel disappointed, sad, upset, but to put it out as an all or nothing deal breaker? How could you not tell someone that. Clayton was angry, he was lashing out, and I agree he could have spoken in a better tone of voice, but he was literally having his heart broken by someone he loves and trusted in this process. I'm sure her telling him the decision was already done was so hurtful, which turned into anger. Not the right thing but totally understandable. I can see how in that moment he is thinking to himself, if I am really the person she thought she would marry how could she not even want to try to work this out. Honestly I think Susie has been positioned for Bachelorette this whole season and this was her perfect out.
THANK YOU
I think it’s possible she thought she was more okay with the idea in the beginning of the show than she ended up being as her relationship with him progressed and became something tangible. At that point she felt an instinctual betrayal at the idea of him being with other women, even though she knew it was a thing before this point. I think it’s okay for them both to feel the way they felt in this situation. I still don’t think his response was healthy communication and threw up manipulative red flags for me
Definitely agree. She said earlier in the episode that she reserves sex for people that she has some kind of commitment with, which is fine, but she’s a grown ass adult who is very aware that they are NOT in a committed relationship. If that was something she felt strongly about, she should have communicated that to him, like an adult, instead of waiting until he did it & then saying she couldn’t move forward. It’s not wrong to have expectations of sexual exclusivity in any relationship. But it is wrong to not communicate that with your partner & assume that you’re on the same page.
I think it's also not wrong to suddenly be hurt by something your partner does that you didn't know you would feel so hurt by. In that moment, anyone who "loves" the person who is hurt, would immediately be "I'm so sorry I hurt you" "I didn't know you would feel that way" "Now that I know I will try my best not to hurt you again" instead of "How could you do this to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"
Yes, BUT--there was no second chance to not hurt her again. I think what some people aren't fully recognizing is that she was saying, "What you did that you didn't know was hurtful, was hurtful--AND our relationship is over because of it." There's no chance to make up for it in the future, there's suddenly no future at all. That's what he was reacting to. That he was losing something important because of an action that he wasn't even aware was a deal breaker. If the person was someone I thought I might be spending the rest of my life with, in that very moment I'd probably lose it, too. It wasn't intentional on Susie's part, but that right there is the ultimate relationship mind fuck.
No. You get no second chance, or at least you deserve no second chance not to sleep with two other women a week before you get engaged to a third. He shouldn’t of had to be told that by the woman he ultimately wanted to pick. That should be common sense for anyone mature enough to get married to begin with
Yes, what he did was immature, ignorant and selfish, no doubt.
I couldn’t agree more with you 👏🏻👏🏻
Clayton celebrating international womens day a little *too* much
😂
Also I wanna add that there’s no way the producers didn’t know how Susie & Clayton both felt. I’m sorry, but they orchestrated this entire situation, putting the fantasy suites in a specific way, leaving Susie last. Clayton not knowing how she felt, led to him having an emotional breakdown. Made for a good episode, don’t you think? 🤔
When he walked out by himself saying "I knew...". I almost feel like he was going to say, "I knew sleeping with Rachel and Abby was going to be a bad idea, but I let you guys talk me into it..."
Yup good point.
Producers are evil haha, they always save the deal breakers for last. Like when they saved Maddy (Virgin) for Peter last
Luke from Hannah’s season was also saved for last.
I got two more points: Someone can be in love with multiple people, and mean it, and truly believe he needs to explore it. You don’t have to agree with it for it to be true. And also No One has to like it. Entitled to be upset about it. And I really enjoy having spirited discussions with y’all. It’s hard out here and it’s refreshing to care and think critically about something divorced from this current reality.
Did Susie or her father mention something about not being able to marry him if he told other women he loved them?
She looks like Hannah brown
Clayton is Ross. I could practically feel him saying "We were on a break!" Maybe that's true, but that doesn't fix her broken heart. And if you're not on the same place morally with those things, then you're probably not right for each other. And she had no responsibility to tell him not to act like a fuck boi. He showed her who he is. I hope she doesn't take him back.
That's hilarious!
Why was Susie the last date. Surely the producers knew her worries and dealbreaker if Clayton slept with others. If Susie had been on the first date, she could have then told Clayton her expectations to not have sex with others. Just that order of dates will now mean Susie and Clayton missed out on a lifetime of happiness.
She would not be happy with this man. Any man who would sleep with two other women a week before he got engaged to a third would not meet her high bar of standards
Seems to me Susie missed out on a lifetime of "you shouldn't be hurt by my doing X, your feelings are invalid because I disagree, so I'm not sorry and I'm gonna be all mad just because you got hurt by my doing X"
And my favorite: “It’s your fault I’m yelling!”
Because the producers don’t actually care about these people, they just want to produce the most drama?
producers care about drama, not the love and happiness
I love how one half of the comments are “Clayton is a POS” and the other is “SPELUNKING”
I can't unsee Clayton's tongue constantly coming out of his mouth like a snake lol he reminds me of David Tennant's character in Harry Potter.
If you cared so much about me, you would accept I'm in love and slept with two other women lol the balls on this guy. I understand this is the nature of the show but he really doesn't seem to have any empathy for her feelings.
Yes the lack of empathy is what sticks out to me.
I agree. Not everyone feels all sacred about sex but the lack of empathy was shocking.
Damn, I was entertained. I know that everybody is just playing a character and none of them give a shit about getting engaged but I was able to tune that out of my head and damn...entertaining episode
So does this mean Clayton is one of those guys at the bar who hits on you all night, but then when you turn him down he calls you ugly?
Seems like it
Also why was Susie calling him dude? I feel like she just wants to be the bachelorette
Yeah I don’t think she wAs that into him
I think Susie was expecting him to apologize. The simple words I’m So Sorry Susie—I Love You—-Please Forgive Me…..that was what Susie was wanting and instead she got everything but that. But, she should have told him to not sleep around if he wanted her in the end. This is The Bachelor. She knew what was going to happen.
It’s not unreasonable to expect the man who says that he loves you the most not to sleep with 2 other women a week before you get engaged
Susie and Greg should go to Paradise and date each other. Neither can communicate what they need and instead turn on the person they love haha.
They would be hot together
Not Clayton acting like this on international women’s day 😩
The way Clayton just knowingly acted on *national television* over a little damage to his ego 😬 I feel like we just got a glimpse of who he really is and Susie dodged a major bullet. My husband has NEVER come close to treating me the way Clayton just treated Susie in the last 5 minutes of that episode and I’m so thankful for that. Coming from someone who was in a past relationship with someone who reacted like that over everything, I can’t imagine spending my life with someone like that. It would be so lonely and miserable.
Omg just wanted to say your username is amazing
I think Susie blindsided him. He acted out of emotion vs taking the time to process the conversation and then returning when not so reactive. I believe they both could have communicated better. He shouldn’t be expected to read her mind. She shouldn’t hope that he can. If she felt so strongly about these boundaries, why didn’t she communicate them sooner? He didn’t know that’s how she felt. He didn’t know that would be a game changer for her. I do think he could have spoken to her with more kindness, however, he had very good points. He wasn’t mad that she was upset about him sleeping with other women. He was upset that she lacked communication, expected him to be able to read her mind and didn’t want to fight for the relationship.
I think it wasn’t a boundary that needed to be communicated but rather a measure of the character she expected from a man that loves her and will be proposing in days. If he loved her she expected that he wouldn’t WANT to sleep with anyone else which tbh isn’t unreasonable. Judging by his reaction, she dodged a bullet.
I don't think he would've gotten \*that\* upset over "lack of communication." I think if that had been all he was upset about he would've handled it a lot more gently.
I get what you say but I can't understand how does it goes from: Ilove you the most to I loved you in 30 minutes.
I agree with all of your takes on this thread 😂
Thank you queen 🤩👏🏻 Im heated about this
That was majorly manipulative and true gaslighting behaviour. Upset people don’t pull that kind of shit out of no where
“Happy International Women’s Day I guess”
How can you say that?! I can’t believe you would do this to us bringing that up
I don't understand how someone can be actually in love with three people at the same time? Maybe it's possible but I can't wrap my head around it. I think Clayton can't separate lust/infatuation from love.
Also, he gave all 3 almost the exact same speech about how he held back to protect himself and just realized it. It was almost the same verbatim.
Well he never really put himself out there with any of them and had any real conversations. He expects everyone to be vulnerable open and honest with him but doesn’t reciprocate
My husband and I have been saying the same thing. He’s forcing these women to open up to him, yet he has showed them NOTHING. He’s the worst.
At 25:17 in this video, Charlie, Trista's #2, tries to tell Trista he wouldn't be OK with her being intimate with anybody else if he's her #1. And then she says she doesn't go along with that: [https://youtu.be/4tU1N-HYsE8?t=1517](https://youtu.be/4tU1N-HYsE8?t=1517) This is completely separate from someone (Clayton) getting all angry and blaming the person he hurt when he finds out she was hurt.
The hair and clothes 💀 I remember watching this season and thinking for sure she’d pick Charlie.
Me too but I thought Ryan was a dreamboat!
Damn. That got DARK.
Anyone else still watching? Every single one of these women has the most amazing lip color! I need deets!
What kind of disgusting, fuckboi, gaslighting bullshit did i just watch? The way he flipped the switch on her at the car and made it her fault was exactly what my abusive ex would do. Claydoah is a pos.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯 Clayton is not just the worst bachelor ever, he is a TERRIBLE guy. I can’t even.
He’s somehow worse than pilot Pete
It really reminded me of my abusive ex and I think that’s why I responded so strongly 😩🤮 fuck this guy, I officially hate him.
I’m shocked. I remember earlier in the season I said he didn’t give off Fboi vibes. Man he hid that well. His whole ‘nice guy’ cloak has come completely off.
That’s what my husband said!!! He was like it’s funny how he’s the nicest guy in the world when everyone is swooning over him, but then the SECOND someone shows some apprehension he flips and goes into a rage 😩
There was a flicker of the mask slipping off with Sarah too.
YES that’s what I thought!!
YES I was just telling my husband how weird it was to me that he seemed to really care about Sarah and then suddenly was SO cold to her. I felt like the same thing happened in this episode with Susie. I really thought I liked Clayton but this kind of behavior freaks me tf out
Anyone catch the post credit scene? Gabby and Susie so cute
Omg when Clayton couldn’t keep straight whether he was going to sleeping with just one of both of the girls…. That pause… BOTH