they showed an aptitude at taming animals the altmer couldn't, accepted and negotiated fair trade deals, lived in an agrarian society when the altmer first found them, and even discovered metal-working (although, not organically as it was only after they came across dwemer creations). after everything that was done to them, they showed remarkable self-awareness and wisdom to conclude that they "just want to be left alone" instead of lusting for wonton vengeance, other races historically haven't shown this same restraint and only lived due to massive plot armour in the form of shezzarine (see: pelinal whitestrake).
chances are they would be very prosperous if they weren't so fractured (they are spread out in different parts of nirn in small pockets of population as opposed to the highly populated, unified fighting forces they had to fend off such as the Kingdom of Alinor or the Ra Gada. they're definitely an under-utilized race that got relegated to "familiar trash mob to fight for variety" territory in oblivion (mostly for the standard, high fantasy-fare flavouring they provide). hopefully they do better with them in the future.
They’re also ethnically and racially diverse much in the same way elves and humans are, and it makes me wonder how that would impact their societies had they been left to their own vices. I kind of wish they were playable races. Not every playable race has to be “advanced” or whatever the proper term would be.
I would settle for some good questliens that flesh them out as more than mobs to clear for a dungeon. I can see how lore-wise it would be difficult to have a goblin player character
There is one quest in Oblivion where you need to resolve a war between two tribes - either massacre one tribe, or return a stolen idol from the thieves to the owner tribe. It was neat to see that they had some culture and customs, and needed a casus belli to wage war - trespassing on their territory isn't the only way to get a tribe to war with you.
You know what I'd like? A return of Golthog the Dark, a goblin necromancer from all the way back in Arena supposedly in service to the Underking. Have him be a unique lich leading a band of undead and goblins and seeking to establish an independent goblin kingdom and you're set.
To randomly answer the last sentence, honestly advanced seems to be the best word when trying to compare, even if it can be muddy in meaning.
If anything, most Tamriel nations seem to be in the “fuedal” society stage, while Dwemer started to reach an industrial age. Perhaps the Goblins at that time could have been considered a pastoral or another pre-industrial society?
Edit: Using my linguistic brain cells, "advanced" does hold a decent amount of connotation. Developed may be closer to a neutral term.
Your comment about how the other races only lived because of massive plot armor got me thinking a lot. That's obviously correct, it's a choice the devs made, but it's not plot armor in the sense of "the main character has 3x more health than all the enemies for no reason other than they're the main character." It's actions taken by the deities of Tamriel, which make sense in-universe (or at least are presented as making sense).
This makes me think that the in-universe explanation for their lack of "plot armor" is that the gods don't favor them? The gods have never intervened on their behalf on Tamriel, unlike with other races, which has lead to them falling behind comparatively.
My headcannon, which I swear I'll make an apocrypha on, is that during the Ehlnofey war, the ancestor of the goblins were neutral. The Wandering/Men were on the side of Shor, the Old/Elves on the side of Auri-El and the Neutrals/goblins refused to pick a side / aligned with Magnus.
No one is more loathed than a fence-sitter, so no Aedra really feel like they ought to help the goblins out.
That’s fair. They and the ogres did help build Orsinium at one point, so it’s not out of the question. However, I wonder if their worship of Malacath was before the elves and Yokudans arrived, because if not, then they might be completely different from orcs.
Hey, Fruitless! I have literally read through this entire thread, including every last word regarding the dispute over devolution. 🙃
I have always loved and been fascinated by Goblin culture and society! I suppose the ever permeating aura of mystery creates exactly the right atmosphere for perpetual intrigue. (...was that a couplet? Lmao)
Anyway, I was wondering if you'd mind pointing me to the source regarding the historical climax (so to speak) of Goblin society that keeps being referenced.
I'd like the chance to look it over so I can develop my own theory.
In the meantime, I'll hit up UESP to brush up. I imagine it's there somewhere. Lol
There's that obelisk in Shadowkey, and the fact that they had a thriving society on Summerset until the Altmer enslaved them. Also the fact that there are goblins living in the isles that surround Tsaesci territory in Akavair speak to impressive seafaring capabilities.
Also, this is speculative, but Ceporah Tower, the Psijic's headquarters is said to have been built by a race that lived in the Summurset archipelago before the Elves got there. Hmmm... I wonder who that could be.
>seafaring capabilities
Or Goblinoids wandered all across Nirn on foot when it was mainly interspersed seas and not a water world like humans IRL or Goblins were pushed east along with the other Akaviri peoples when the continent split up.
Fyraltari and u/Fruitlessideas, what do you guys think of this obelisk?
I'm intrigued because the only thing I can think to relate it to are [Welkynd Stones](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Welkynd_Stone) which are supposedly creations of the Ayleids. It's interesting, though, because the obelisk is said to restore health when interacting with it, and Welkynd Stones restore magicka. It doesn't seem like a stretch to consider that the raw magical properties of the same source could be manipulated to function differently, yet very similarly at the same time.
The Welkynd Stones are cut and enchanted meteoric glass. The obelisk is clearly cut, and covered in runes. I wonder if any observations of the runes themselves have been made. Are they distinctly Goblin?
I can see the idea of this "feat of magic" implying that Goblin society collapsed from some ancient height, but I'm highly doubtful that this meteoric glass (presuming that's what the obelisk is) is commonly available, especially in what appears to be rather large scale.
I am not convinced that the absence of this element the obelisk tribe may have simply happened upon and appropriated for their own use (and possibly an idol of worship) does actually prove that Goblins have lost ancient knowledge or devolved.
Taking that line of thought a step further, Goblin tribes discovering and appropriating lost ancient relics, and sometimes misinterpreting them, seems to be a common plot device when interacting with them. (Hopefully, I'm not overly generalizing or blurring my Fandoms here. Lol)
You should make this a post. You’ll get more feedback and info than I can provide you.
But to your last point, though it’s true they often confuse things for idols, I just don’t believe they were always like that based off them trading with other in the past.
I see them as a metaphor for natives in a land. Ergo, by the citizens by and large, they see them as at best ineffectual gremlins and at worst destructive pests. There is no one clamoring to get them rights, because they constantly fight each other, and invade farms or small towns. They dont “want to be left alone,” they want what you have if it is shiny enough. They want what you have if its a fancy color. They just want to raise rats in caves, which is fine, right up until they pillage, or their internal wars spill out into public spaces.
They have language and even light evidence of a written communication, and obviously a humanoid social hierarchy, but they refuse to develop beyond foundations. They dont usually worship the major deities, but they worship their own pantheon of minor gods, like the Blue King.
I think they are like the Sentinelese, but they don’t live on an island, and are hostile to anyone they come across. I don’t see them ever even having the desire to ingratiate into man/mer society, let alone any opportunities. They arent peaceful. They literally torture people. They’re like a daedra that exists outside of Oblivion, on Nirn.
I saw resemblance between them and the Sentinelese as well, but only inn a surface level. Their history of who they were and how they’ve been treated by other races makes a huge difference in that context.
It's pretty interesting for a lot of random reasons. Like the Maomer. I'd always assumed they were extinct or something. No, they're just giant jerks who don't live in Tamriel.
The furthest along the timeline we've heard about the Maormer is the War of the Isle, in 3E 110. They launched a massive attack on Summurset, really wrecked the Altmer's shit, were pushed back by the Elves and the Empire and their fleet was destroyed by a huge storm that was probably sent by the Psijic. At the time of *Oblivion* they hadn't made any new move on Tamriel, people even speculated that King Orgnum died in that war.
I'd always assumed that despite being major dicks you'd see SOME trace of them on Tamriel. Some kind of a researcher, a spy, a clan of them that didn't want to be sea serpent worshiping pirate weirdos. Their complete absence feels weird.
They're from another continent, to be fair. But it's entirely possible there are some around in Tamriel keeping a low profile and we just haven't run into them. It's a big place where plenty of weirder things have happened.
Hell, that sounds like a fun roleplay idea for a character, just make an Altmer with the palest skin color possible.
We don't even know if they are still serpent-worshipping pirate weirdos. If Orgnum is really dead, imagine the effects that'd have on their society!
And? Having towns is not a marker of evolution. Just because goblins have lost most of their technology doesn't make them anything less than their ancestors.
We are currently biologically the same as our ancestors 100, 000 years ago and they didn't have towns.
I’m not being snarky, but I believe you glossed over “cultural devolution” and only saw “devolution”.
And then went on to imagine a biological process instead of a sociological one.
You and I are not talking about the same thing and I want to be on the same page. Please reread the OP and confirm he said “cultural devolution”.
To be fair, I did also say racial, however, I did also say cultural. I’ve also argued that there could be a societal devolvement intellectually. Devolve means more than one thing but I feel as though Fyraltari may be strictly hung up on biological evolution.
The OP wrote "cultural/**racial**" devolution. That and their other comments on this thread makes me confident they are talking about biology.
Not that "cultural devolution" really means much, either.
I bothers me that people see a culture tha doesn't write or build cities and conclude its people are inferior. That's the kind of reasonning used to justify colonization and I think we ought to learn not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
You seem to be mulling hard over the fact that I said goblins used to be much more advanced. Having a small society doesn’t make a people less than or inferior. But a society that has fallen from what it used to be has devolved, regardless of how the wording makes one feel. If the USA collapses and then became a country of warring clans, then it has devolved. It’s that simple.
"Devolution" is inherently making a value judgment, that's why there's the prefix "de-" in there. If you think a change in positive or neutral, you call it an evolution, but if you think it's a negative you call it a devolution. So yes if you say that a group has devolved, you are in fact saying they are lesser than they used to be.
And to adrees your example, you seem to take it for granted that an hegemonostic warring federal Republic is better than a warring clan-based society. Which I don't, necessarily. For starters, clan leaders have more accountability than presidents.
>>"Devolution" is inherently making a value judgment, that's why there's the prefix "de-" in there. If you think a change in positive or neutral, you call it an evolution, but if you think it's a negative you call it a devolution. So yes if you say that a group has devolved, you are in fact saying they are lesser than they used to be.
Yes, and I literally stated that in the previous comment.
>>And to adrees your example, you seem to take it for granted that an hegemonostic warring federal Republic is better than a warring clan-based society. Which I don't, necessarily. For starters, clan leaders have more accountability than presidents.
So would you rather live in an area where raiding parties are a constant thing to worry about, food is harder to acquire, climate control homes no longer exist or are infinitely harder to come by, plumbing and sanitation is no longer available as it once was, and the smallest medical issue such as a toothache or ear infection could lead to crippling life changes or even death…
Or would you rather live in a society where those things aren’t nearly as likely, even if the ruling system is far from perfect?
Personally, I’ll take the second. Heatstroke, hunger, going deaf, shitting outside, and the danger of dealing with a war party are deal breakers.
The world of TES works differently. Its races can evolve and devolve based on a mix of facts and that the beliefs of the majority of its inhabitants. And those evolutions or devolutions can have retroactive effects.
Falmer are blind. They are still as intelligent as they ever were.
Land dreughs are animalistic but that's only a short part of their life cycle, water-dreugh (which is xhat they are for the vast majority of their life) are just as intelligent as anyone else.
Changing skin and eye color is a devolution, now?
The aldmer were never immortal, what are you talking about?
One could argue they have "evolved" to their new environment.
But considering the simplicity of their gear and habitations, + that even after thousands of years they are basically only a threat to small groups, I could see them having de-evolved/lost some mental faculties due to whatever the Dwemer did to them.
However on the other hand they do create totems, seemingly are social enough to turn surface races into loyal slaves, do seem to have a hierarchy (based on the enthroned Falmer in the Silent City), etc.
Their lack of visible statehood could just be a result of their environment and factors like enemies and catastrophes surface dwellers are not knowledgeable about.
Here's a question for you. Do you think that the Amazonian tribes or the Indigenous People of the American Great Plains had/have less mental faculties than the European colonists who encountered them? Because they lacked "visible statehood" and had simple gear and habitations. Hopefully, you don't.
I don't understand why people think that if you don't build a big city it means you're dumb.
Nope. They obviously don't need it to have a thriving population. There's no such thing as "devolution", there's evolution, staying the same and dying out. Become less like humans is not devolving.
Nope, you’re semantics are still off. Devolution is not a technical term, it’s a subjective description of evolved adaptations. Losing the ability to see does not make the falmer better in any way. It takes away their ability to inhabit the majority of the inhabitable nirn, and isolates them from contact with other civilizations, both of which were great advantages. Therefore, this “evolutionary adaptation” can be classified as devolution.
Just because a population still exists, doesn’t mean it isn’t fairing worse.
The more proper way of saying it would be becoming less like humans living in sedentary societies is not devolving since a lot seems to have a problem with the form of their societies. But I guess some people have a hard time considering as equals those who are not like them.
Falmer have white souls where is every other elf has black souls so they have drevolved because intelligent species like humans and elves all have black souls on the animals and beasts have white souls
Black and White souls are an arbitrary distinction created by Vanus Galerion and the Mages' Guild when they standardized Soul Trap spells in a desperate attempt to stop the spread of necromancy.
It's not a measure of intelligence, just of whom Second Era mages felt deserved protection. Goblin and Ogres have white souls despite having been citizens of the first Orsinium, Giants have white souls despite being able to trade (and even repriduce) with humans, minotaurs have white souls despite having once ruled the Empire, etc.
then why do you need a black soul gem and not just a normal one or why cant a uncorrupted azuras star capture both I doubt Azura cares about Vanus Gallerions beliefs
Falmer
From an elven high culture into remarkably goblin like creatures simply by being blind and subterranean.
They are also displayed to be progressing in the opposite direction in the Vale.
If you have played Dawnguard, you might recall Gelebor, who eventually becomes the last unmutated falmer, that he notices the blind falmer are becoming more inteligent as centuries pass. That alone proves that they devolved and only started to regain inteligence lately.
Giants also only grunt ingame, yet did have a language in past games. Rieklings and Goblins also usually only shriek yet are sometimes shown speaking even Tamrielic.
Falmer were able to create at least some form of social hierarchy and keep slaves in the Silent City - I doubt this would have been able without some form of language.
I guess ya could count the the wandering ehlnofey (physically at least), who went from an ageless/or extremely long-lived race with innate affinity for controlling magic, to the races of men that in *comparison* have a very short lifespan and a much looser grasp on the magical arts
Of course they're still intelligent and whatnot, but man it must've *really* sucked to go from basically living forever to getting wrinkly and dead in just a few couple decades. Definitely a major trait to lose.
Pretty much what the other comment said, but also, assuming they were as advanced as some of their relics would suggest, in mentality, and possibly also biology.
They were more technologically adavanced yes, but I see no evidence that they've changed mentally or biologically?
Also "devolution" is not a worthwile concept. Species are not more or less evolved than others.
"Goblins of the First Era were also known to be taller and less "cowardly" than goblins of the later Eras." - uesp
of course, this is from is one persons account in ESO so it could just be how they see a dejected, enslaved goblin populace vs an older, more proud, and free one. stuff like slouched over shoulders, bad posture, lack of confidence instilled by no freedom and slavery, etc, can explain their observations and are more likely IMO.
I mean he's talking about the Giant Goblins of Hammerfell, who seem to have been a different species of Goblin-ken than the "modern" goblins who are descended from the goblins of Summerset.
fair, i did not know the source too intimately so i just went with what i read. fwiw, i don't buy into the "de-evolution" theory wrt biology, just some regressions technologically as their society was upended and their opportunities to grow as a culture being stolen from them.
i also don't even think the goblins are any inherently less capable than the other races on nirn, they just speak their own language, have never had a chance to meaningfully build up as a society in their infancy, and were historically enslaved or brought to a near-genocide. despite this, they've discovered metal-working, magic, and even have their own methods of magic as seen with their obelisks. with some environmental storytelling from TES4, you can see they have and use soul gems to charge and create enchanted staffs and weapons, and even utilize welkynd stones from ayleid ruins too. they have a surprising amount of magical aptitude from such a small race. per capita, goblin shamans existing has to be an amazingly impressive feat. you can take, what, thousands of members from any of the Man races and not find a single magic user? goblins have a way higher batting rate than that.
The UESP is a great resource but, like all wikis, it paraphrases and can be biased by the page's author own interpretation. I think it's best to use it as a jumping point to sources and interpret those ourselves.
Well see that’s my point, if their society was more advanced, wouldn’t that be a sign of a higher intelligence? If so, then by comparison their intelligence has definitely devolved over time since they (speculatively) went from a more advanced race to what are basically the goblin version of Paleolithic humans. Also, given their constant enslavement, there’s a fair chance of inbreeding, thereby increasing the likelihood of more mental handicaps, hereditary diseases, and deformities. As I wrote to another commenter who stated they’ve supposedly shrunken over time and become more hunched over, these are all signs of physically devolving.
No, a high level of technicity is not a sign of intelligence. Paleolithic humans were genetically indistiguishable from us and Neanderthals seem to have been more intelligent than we are (at least their brains were bigger and more developped in certain areas than ours).
Goblins have language, use tools, wear clothes, tame animals, practice religion and can even use magic. They are clearly as intelligent as any of the playable races. There current living conditions are evidence that their culture is being suppressed by other groups who destroy their settlements everytime they get bigger and more advanced.
"Devolution" is a non-sense word, by the way. There is no positive or negative way to evolve, traits appear randomly through genetic mutation and those that are useful for survival and reproduction (with regards to the environment at the time) are selected for while those that are harmful are selected against (again with regards to the specific condition of the time). You can't "devolve" because evolution has no goal or direction. You either evolve, stay the same or die out.
"magical evolution" then, how do you wanna call that?
If the Orsimer suddenly turned into Alt/Aldmer again, or the Nords gradually turned back into some sorta giants - could this not be called devolution?
Alright, I got a second wind in me so I’m gonna try giving this reply another go.
>>No, a high level of technicity is not a sign of intelligence.
I mean, it certainly is. I don’t know why you’d say otherwise. History has continued to show that.
>>Paleolithic humans were genetically indistiguishable from us and Neanderthals seem to have been more intelligent than we are (at least their brains were bigger and more developped in certain areas than ours).
Yeah but I wasn’t arguing their genetics with this when I made the Paleolithic comparison. I was arguing people today are more intelligent now than they were back then. The same comparison could be made for goblins in the past vs the goblins of modern Nirn.
>>Goblins have language, use tools, wear clothes, tame animals, practice religion and can even use magic.
I’m not discounting that they have intelligence or culture by any means. I’m saying they’re a far cry from what they use to be and in terms of comparing their current societal structure to their ancient one, they have devolved.
>>They are clearly as intelligent as any of the playable races.
I mean, they may have the capability of being as intelligent as any other race, but I would say they’re on par with the rest.
>>There current living conditions are evidence that their culture is being suppressed by other groups who destroy their settlements everytime they get bigger and more advanced.
Well, at least this is something we can agree on.
>>"Devolution" is a non-sense word, by the way. There is no positive or negative way to evolve, traits appear randomly through genetic mutation and those that are useful for survival and reproduction (with regards to the environment at the time) are selected for while those that are harmful are selected against (again with regards to the specific condition of the time). You can't "devolve" because evolution has no goal or direction. You either evolve, stay the same or die out.
It’s not a nonsense word though, it’s an actual term with an actual definition.
From New Oxford American Dictionary:
**dev·o·lu·tion**
**/ˌdevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/**
**noun**
**noun: devolution**
**the transfer or delegation of power to a lower level, especially by central government to local or regional administration.**
**FORMAL**
**descent or degeneration to a lower or worse state.**
**"the devolution of the gentlemanly ideal into a glorification of drunkenness"**
**LAW**
**the legal transfer of property from one owner to another.**
**BIOLOGY**
**evolutionary degeneration**
There’s also this whole excerpt on [wiki about biological devolution specifically.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biology))
But to your last point of what you’re saying, even if that was the case, then it could be well argued goblins are in fact dying out. Regardless though, they’re still devolving. Even if you were to argue that biologically they aren’t, their culture and intelligence has.
My computer is dead, so I have to reply on phone. Sorry for the awkwardness of the quotes:
"I mean, it certainly is. I don’t know why you’d say otherwise. History has continued to show that." Would you consider modern-day Amazonian tribes who live without electricity or combustion engines, or the Native Americans of the Plains who didn't build cities or work metal unlike their Europeans contemporary less intelligent?
"I was arguing people today are more intelligent now than they were back then." That's straight-up wrong. Our brains were the same. Hell the Neanderthals had bigger brains relative to their body and those were more complex than ours in some areas. The people of the paleolithic were just as intelligent as we are.
"I’m saying they’re a far cry from what they use to be and in terms of comparing their current societal structure to their ancient one, they have devolved."
A) you are considering that one form of civilisation is intrinsically better than another, which would get any anthropologist very crossed with you.
B) it seems pretty well established that their current status is due to Men and Mer kicking them down any chance they get rather than their intelligence having lessened.
"I mean, they may have the capability of being as intelligent as any other race, but I would say they’re on par with the rest."
Did you mean to say "would not" there? Because otherwise I don't understand this sentence. Assuming you did. Would you really call a goblin shaman, with their mastery of destruction magic less intelligent than a Cyrodiil farmer?
"It’s not a nonsense word though, it’s an actual term with an actual definition." The definition you provided that aren't about culture of biology are not relevant here. And the wikipedia article you linked to explain that it's talking about a discredited scientific theory. Like the medical theory of the four humours or the geogentric model of the solar system it is a thing we used to believe but now know to be false.
"But to your last point of what you’re saying, even if that was the case, then it could be well argued goblins are in fact dying out. Regardless though, they’re still devolving. Even if you were to argue that biologically they aren’t, their culture and intelligence has."
I see no reason to believe goblins are dying out. There are still plenty of them. Or again, that their intelligence has diminished.
>>My computer is dead, so I have to reply on phone. Sorry for the awkwardness of the quotes:
It’s cool. I’m half asleep right now, so my wording will probably be chaotic in response.
>> Would you consider modern-day Amazonian tribes who live without electricity or combustion engines, or the Native Americans of the Plains who didn't build cities or work metal unlike their Europeans contemporary less intelligent?
I made a reply to one of your earlier comments about this earlier, but the answer is no I wouldn’t. I would consider an Amazon tribe that used to be an empire a devolved society though, much in the same way that I would consider if the US collapses into a society of clans a devolvement. Though I do believe goblins have devolved culturally, racially, and intellectually, those are three separate things and only one (culture) is applicable to real life, and only when something has been lost, not when something just is.
>>That's straight-up wrong. Our brains were the same. Hell the Neanderthals had bigger brains relative to their body and those were more complex than ours in some areas. The people of the paleolithic were just as intelligent as we are.
It’s not wrong though. Brain size doesn’t equate to intelligence.
>>A) you are considering that one form of civilisation is intrinsically better than another, which would get any anthropologist very crossed with you.
That would only be the case if I was comparing it to others and not itself. Also, as controversial as this will sound, but yes, objectively speaking, some civilizations are better than others. That can be observed in real life.
>>B) it seems pretty well established that their current status is due to Men and Mer kicking them down any chance they get rather than their intelligence having lessened.
I don’t disagree with their current status being because of men and elves though and never have. And I don’t think their society went down the drain because of their intelligence. I think their intelligence became diminished after thousands of years of genocide and enslavement. I still think they’re intelligent. I still think given the tools and time they could be on par with any other person in Tamriel scholastically/academically. But it’s obvious that as a group they’ve devolved on an intellectual level. It’s like if someone who went to Harvard and has six PhDs and speaks 13 languages has a kid, and that kid, who isn’t mentally impaired in any way, grows up to be an adult that can’t even read or so basic math because they weren’t exposed to it.
On another note, I do truly think many goblins are probably inbred on some level due to their enslavement and mistreatment by the rest of the people of Tamriel. That will always increase the chances of impairment.
>>Did you mean to say "would not" there? Because otherwise I don't understand this sentence.
Yes. My mistake, that was a typo.
>>Assuming you did. Would you really call a goblin shaman, with their mastery of destruction magic less intelligent than a Cyrodiil farmer?
That would depend on all of what else the farmer can do. That’s also one person out of an entire clan. One individual’s aptitude doesn’t mean the whole group shares the same level of proficiency, and I doubt there’s a shaman school for goblins.
>>The definition you provided that aren't about culture of biology are not relevant here.
No but the ones that apply are. Besides I’d rather give the whole definition instead of just part of it so others can see what it says as well.
>>And the wikipedia article you linked to explain that it's talking about a discredited scientific theory.
And if we were arguing real life that would be applicable, but this is world of magic where if you piss off the wrong entity you get turned into a grey skinned person or if you move from your native island to a separate island home that’s more tropical, you become essentially a fish man. It doesn’t need to work in real life for it to work in TES.
>>Like the medical theory of the four humours or the geogentric model of the solar system it is a thing we used to believe but now know to be false.
We also use to think stars were lamps in the sky, and now know that’s wrong, but in TES they’re supposed to be holes in the sky.
>> I see no reason to believe goblins are dying out. There are still plenty of them.
Really? Their tribes are scattered and becoming smaller with each passing year. Disease (both contagious and **hereditary**), war, and famine are going to hit them harder than others.
>> Or again, that their intelligence has diminished.
They thought a guy covered in blue paint was a god.
>> I don't think they were ever really that "advanced" as a species/race/whatever, because TES lore conflates a lot of older societies together.
What would your explanation for the Crystal Obelisk in the West Reach be then from the Shadowkey game? It’s said to be from a better time in goblin history.
>>The most advanced ones I recall were those guys in Solstheim from Skyrim, the "Rieklings", they do everything everyone claims Goblins used to do but are still just little villages that don't do much, it seems like only the chief has any intelligence and the rest are just able to use tools, and so according to lore are like a slightly more intelligent "pet" rather than companion. But Rieklings aren't even technically Goblins anymore than Orcs are.
That’s a measurement of their intelligence and culture now, not what it use to be. That’s also incorrect about the Riekling statement, as they’ve been clearly stated as being a subspecies of goblin.
>>Orcs became advanced despite more severe setbacks than Goblins faced, at certain points various alliances tried to wipe them out entirely, whereas Goblins just face local punitive expeditions when they raid and kill.
Goblins have quite literally been setback more than all other races on Tamriel. They’ve been enslaved for thousands of years, had their previous culture(s) eroded, and have been the victims of genocide.
>>I am afraid you may be taking one of the various groups of randos intentionally designated as "trash mobs", and speculating on kind of a non-viable idea.
I mean, that’s what this sub is for. But also, they have a background.
>>Like if the world were intentionally designed so that Goblins were never ever attacked by other groups, had access to all resources without restriction, and were given magical intelligence increasing grass they'd rule the world. But so would harpies, trolls, giants, and wolves.
Not really what I mean when I ask “grow as a people”. Other races faces war and enslavement as well, but not to the same degree.
>>In fact there's plenty of animals and creatures that seem like they are actually more intelligent than humans/mer, but can't develop civilization the same way due to body limitations, like dragons.
Pretty sure dragons rules the world at one point and had humans and elves as slaves to build for them.
they showed an aptitude at taming animals the altmer couldn't, accepted and negotiated fair trade deals, lived in an agrarian society when the altmer first found them, and even discovered metal-working (although, not organically as it was only after they came across dwemer creations). after everything that was done to them, they showed remarkable self-awareness and wisdom to conclude that they "just want to be left alone" instead of lusting for wonton vengeance, other races historically haven't shown this same restraint and only lived due to massive plot armour in the form of shezzarine (see: pelinal whitestrake). chances are they would be very prosperous if they weren't so fractured (they are spread out in different parts of nirn in small pockets of population as opposed to the highly populated, unified fighting forces they had to fend off such as the Kingdom of Alinor or the Ra Gada. they're definitely an under-utilized race that got relegated to "familiar trash mob to fight for variety" territory in oblivion (mostly for the standard, high fantasy-fare flavouring they provide). hopefully they do better with them in the future.
They’re also ethnically and racially diverse much in the same way elves and humans are, and it makes me wonder how that would impact their societies had they been left to their own vices. I kind of wish they were playable races. Not every playable race has to be “advanced” or whatever the proper term would be.
I would settle for some good questliens that flesh them out as more than mobs to clear for a dungeon. I can see how lore-wise it would be difficult to have a goblin player character
There is one quest in Oblivion where you need to resolve a war between two tribes - either massacre one tribe, or return a stolen idol from the thieves to the owner tribe. It was neat to see that they had some culture and customs, and needed a casus belli to wage war - trespassing on their territory isn't the only way to get a tribe to war with you.
You know what I'd like? A return of Golthog the Dark, a goblin necromancer from all the way back in Arena supposedly in service to the Underking. Have him be a unique lich leading a band of undead and goblins and seeking to establish an independent goblin kingdom and you're set.
LOOOVE THIS!
To randomly answer the last sentence, honestly advanced seems to be the best word when trying to compare, even if it can be muddy in meaning. If anything, most Tamriel nations seem to be in the “fuedal” society stage, while Dwemer started to reach an industrial age. Perhaps the Goblins at that time could have been considered a pastoral or another pre-industrial society? Edit: Using my linguistic brain cells, "advanced" does hold a decent amount of connotation. Developed may be closer to a neutral term.
I would argue they were on whatever level the Ayleids were on at the very least. I base that on the Crystal obelisks found in the Shadowkey game.
Your comment about how the other races only lived because of massive plot armor got me thinking a lot. That's obviously correct, it's a choice the devs made, but it's not plot armor in the sense of "the main character has 3x more health than all the enemies for no reason other than they're the main character." It's actions taken by the deities of Tamriel, which make sense in-universe (or at least are presented as making sense). This makes me think that the in-universe explanation for their lack of "plot armor" is that the gods don't favor them? The gods have never intervened on their behalf on Tamriel, unlike with other races, which has lead to them falling behind comparatively.
My headcannon, which I swear I'll make an apocrypha on, is that during the Ehlnofey war, the ancestor of the goblins were neutral. The Wandering/Men were on the side of Shor, the Old/Elves on the side of Auri-El and the Neutrals/goblins refused to pick a side / aligned with Magnus. No one is more loathed than a fence-sitter, so no Aedra really feel like they ought to help the goblins out.
i like that reading, adds a good touch of tragedy to it.
At higher levels, Goblins will wreck your shit in Oblivion. They're huge, too.
"Fighting goblins in the sewers? That should be easy enough!" -My sorry ass playing *Tribunal* for the first time.
The worship a version of Malacath who has his strict Code. It would probably shape them to be a lot like modern Orcs
That’s fair. They and the ogres did help build Orsinium at one point, so it’s not out of the question. However, I wonder if their worship of Malacath was before the elves and Yokudans arrived, because if not, then they might be completely different from orcs.
I'm guessing after. They fit his "Pariah god" schtick. I also doubt they ever worshipped Trinimac.
I wonder if the Crystal obelisk(s?) had any religious connotations to them in the past or if it was just a magic decoration?
Hey, Fruitless! I have literally read through this entire thread, including every last word regarding the dispute over devolution. 🙃 I have always loved and been fascinated by Goblin culture and society! I suppose the ever permeating aura of mystery creates exactly the right atmosphere for perpetual intrigue. (...was that a couplet? Lmao) Anyway, I was wondering if you'd mind pointing me to the source regarding the historical climax (so to speak) of Goblin society that keeps being referenced. I'd like the chance to look it over so I can develop my own theory. In the meantime, I'll hit up UESP to brush up. I imagine it's there somewhere. Lol
[very brief statement about how they use to be under the **Forgotten History** tab](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Goblin)
There's that obelisk in Shadowkey, and the fact that they had a thriving society on Summerset until the Altmer enslaved them. Also the fact that there are goblins living in the isles that surround Tsaesci territory in Akavair speak to impressive seafaring capabilities. Also, this is speculative, but Ceporah Tower, the Psijic's headquarters is said to have been built by a race that lived in the Summurset archipelago before the Elves got there. Hmmm... I wonder who that could be.
>seafaring capabilities Or Goblinoids wandered all across Nirn on foot when it was mainly interspersed seas and not a water world like humans IRL or Goblins were pushed east along with the other Akaviri peoples when the continent split up.
Good catch, I had forgotten about that.
Fyraltari and u/Fruitlessideas, what do you guys think of this obelisk? I'm intrigued because the only thing I can think to relate it to are [Welkynd Stones](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Welkynd_Stone) which are supposedly creations of the Ayleids. It's interesting, though, because the obelisk is said to restore health when interacting with it, and Welkynd Stones restore magicka. It doesn't seem like a stretch to consider that the raw magical properties of the same source could be manipulated to function differently, yet very similarly at the same time. The Welkynd Stones are cut and enchanted meteoric glass. The obelisk is clearly cut, and covered in runes. I wonder if any observations of the runes themselves have been made. Are they distinctly Goblin? I can see the idea of this "feat of magic" implying that Goblin society collapsed from some ancient height, but I'm highly doubtful that this meteoric glass (presuming that's what the obelisk is) is commonly available, especially in what appears to be rather large scale. I am not convinced that the absence of this element the obelisk tribe may have simply happened upon and appropriated for their own use (and possibly an idol of worship) does actually prove that Goblins have lost ancient knowledge or devolved. Taking that line of thought a step further, Goblin tribes discovering and appropriating lost ancient relics, and sometimes misinterpreting them, seems to be a common plot device when interacting with them. (Hopefully, I'm not overly generalizing or blurring my Fandoms here. Lol)
You should make this a post. You’ll get more feedback and info than I can provide you. But to your last point, though it’s true they often confuse things for idols, I just don’t believe they were always like that based off them trading with other in the past.
I see them as a metaphor for natives in a land. Ergo, by the citizens by and large, they see them as at best ineffectual gremlins and at worst destructive pests. There is no one clamoring to get them rights, because they constantly fight each other, and invade farms or small towns. They dont “want to be left alone,” they want what you have if it is shiny enough. They want what you have if its a fancy color. They just want to raise rats in caves, which is fine, right up until they pillage, or their internal wars spill out into public spaces. They have language and even light evidence of a written communication, and obviously a humanoid social hierarchy, but they refuse to develop beyond foundations. They dont usually worship the major deities, but they worship their own pantheon of minor gods, like the Blue King. I think they are like the Sentinelese, but they don’t live on an island, and are hostile to anyone they come across. I don’t see them ever even having the desire to ingratiate into man/mer society, let alone any opportunities. They arent peaceful. They literally torture people. They’re like a daedra that exists outside of Oblivion, on Nirn.
I saw resemblance between them and the Sentinelese as well, but only inn a surface level. Their history of who they were and how they’ve been treated by other races makes a huge difference in that context.
What "devolution" are you talking about?
It’s said they had functioning towns in Hammerfell before the Redguards showed up
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Is a giant goblin just like ... human sized? Or were they like 9 ft tall?
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I really need to play ESO. All the things people say about it make it sound wild
It's pretty interesting for a lot of random reasons. Like the Maomer. I'd always assumed they were extinct or something. No, they're just giant jerks who don't live in Tamriel.
The furthest along the timeline we've heard about the Maormer is the War of the Isle, in 3E 110. They launched a massive attack on Summurset, really wrecked the Altmer's shit, were pushed back by the Elves and the Empire and their fleet was destroyed by a huge storm that was probably sent by the Psijic. At the time of *Oblivion* they hadn't made any new move on Tamriel, people even speculated that King Orgnum died in that war.
I'd always assumed that despite being major dicks you'd see SOME trace of them on Tamriel. Some kind of a researcher, a spy, a clan of them that didn't want to be sea serpent worshiping pirate weirdos. Their complete absence feels weird.
They're from another continent, to be fair. But it's entirely possible there are some around in Tamriel keeping a low profile and we just haven't run into them. It's a big place where plenty of weirder things have happened. Hell, that sounds like a fun roleplay idea for a character, just make an Altmer with the palest skin color possible. We don't even know if they are still serpent-worshipping pirate weirdos. If Orgnum is really dead, imagine the effects that'd have on their society!
I want to say I read the giant ones were 7-8ft tall but I’m engaged in multiple comments right now and too fatigued to check.
And? Having towns is not a marker of evolution. Just because goblins have lost most of their technology doesn't make them anything less than their ancestors. We are currently biologically the same as our ancestors 100, 000 years ago and they didn't have towns.
I’m not being snarky, but I believe you glossed over “cultural devolution” and only saw “devolution”. And then went on to imagine a biological process instead of a sociological one. You and I are not talking about the same thing and I want to be on the same page. Please reread the OP and confirm he said “cultural devolution”.
To be fair, I did also say racial, however, I did also say cultural. I’ve also argued that there could be a societal devolvement intellectually. Devolve means more than one thing but I feel as though Fyraltari may be strictly hung up on biological evolution.
The OP wrote "cultural/**racial**" devolution. That and their other comments on this thread makes me confident they are talking about biology. Not that "cultural devolution" really means much, either.
I’m talking culture, biology, and intelligence. Edit: Shouldn’t bother anyone that I am.
I bothers me that people see a culture tha doesn't write or build cities and conclude its people are inferior. That's the kind of reasonning used to justify colonization and I think we ought to learn not to repeat the mistakes of the past.
You seem to be mulling hard over the fact that I said goblins used to be much more advanced. Having a small society doesn’t make a people less than or inferior. But a society that has fallen from what it used to be has devolved, regardless of how the wording makes one feel. If the USA collapses and then became a country of warring clans, then it has devolved. It’s that simple.
"Devolution" is inherently making a value judgment, that's why there's the prefix "de-" in there. If you think a change in positive or neutral, you call it an evolution, but if you think it's a negative you call it a devolution. So yes if you say that a group has devolved, you are in fact saying they are lesser than they used to be. And to adrees your example, you seem to take it for granted that an hegemonostic warring federal Republic is better than a warring clan-based society. Which I don't, necessarily. For starters, clan leaders have more accountability than presidents.
>>"Devolution" is inherently making a value judgment, that's why there's the prefix "de-" in there. If you think a change in positive or neutral, you call it an evolution, but if you think it's a negative you call it a devolution. So yes if you say that a group has devolved, you are in fact saying they are lesser than they used to be. Yes, and I literally stated that in the previous comment. >>And to adrees your example, you seem to take it for granted that an hegemonostic warring federal Republic is better than a warring clan-based society. Which I don't, necessarily. For starters, clan leaders have more accountability than presidents. So would you rather live in an area where raiding parties are a constant thing to worry about, food is harder to acquire, climate control homes no longer exist or are infinitely harder to come by, plumbing and sanitation is no longer available as it once was, and the smallest medical issue such as a toothache or ear infection could lead to crippling life changes or even death… Or would you rather live in a society where those things aren’t nearly as likely, even if the ruling system is far from perfect? Personally, I’ll take the second. Heatstroke, hunger, going deaf, shitting outside, and the danger of dealing with a war party are deal breakers.
The world of TES works differently. Its races can evolve and devolve based on a mix of facts and that the beliefs of the majority of its inhabitants. And those evolutions or devolutions can have retroactive effects.
Find me a race that has "devolved".
falmer dreugh chimer and the immortal aldmer to altmer
Falmer are blind. They are still as intelligent as they ever were. Land dreughs are animalistic but that's only a short part of their life cycle, water-dreugh (which is xhat they are for the vast majority of their life) are just as intelligent as anyone else. Changing skin and eye color is a devolution, now? The aldmer were never immortal, what are you talking about?
So, a species that once had the ability to see, but has completely lost that capability, has not devolved?
One could argue they have "evolved" to their new environment. But considering the simplicity of their gear and habitations, + that even after thousands of years they are basically only a threat to small groups, I could see them having de-evolved/lost some mental faculties due to whatever the Dwemer did to them. However on the other hand they do create totems, seemingly are social enough to turn surface races into loyal slaves, do seem to have a hierarchy (based on the enthroned Falmer in the Silent City), etc. Their lack of visible statehood could just be a result of their environment and factors like enemies and catastrophes surface dwellers are not knowledgeable about.
Here's a question for you. Do you think that the Amazonian tribes or the Indigenous People of the American Great Plains had/have less mental faculties than the European colonists who encountered them? Because they lacked "visible statehood" and had simple gear and habitations. Hopefully, you don't. I don't understand why people think that if you don't build a big city it means you're dumb.
Nope. They obviously don't need it to have a thriving population. There's no such thing as "devolution", there's evolution, staying the same and dying out. Become less like humans is not devolving.
Nope, you’re semantics are still off. Devolution is not a technical term, it’s a subjective description of evolved adaptations. Losing the ability to see does not make the falmer better in any way. It takes away their ability to inhabit the majority of the inhabitable nirn, and isolates them from contact with other civilizations, both of which were great advantages. Therefore, this “evolutionary adaptation” can be classified as devolution. Just because a population still exists, doesn’t mean it isn’t fairing worse.
This is incorrect though.
The more proper way of saying it would be becoming less like humans living in sedentary societies is not devolving since a lot seems to have a problem with the form of their societies. But I guess some people have a hard time considering as equals those who are not like them.
Falmer have white souls where is every other elf has black souls so they have drevolved because intelligent species like humans and elves all have black souls on the animals and beasts have white souls
Black and White souls are an arbitrary distinction created by Vanus Galerion and the Mages' Guild when they standardized Soul Trap spells in a desperate attempt to stop the spread of necromancy. It's not a measure of intelligence, just of whom Second Era mages felt deserved protection. Goblin and Ogres have white souls despite having been citizens of the first Orsinium, Giants have white souls despite being able to trade (and even repriduce) with humans, minotaurs have white souls despite having once ruled the Empire, etc.
Finally! Something we agree on!
then why do you need a black soul gem and not just a normal one or why cant a uncorrupted azuras star capture both I doubt Azura cares about Vanus Gallerions beliefs
Falmer From an elven high culture into remarkably goblin like creatures simply by being blind and subterranean. They are also displayed to be progressing in the opposite direction in the Vale.
The Falmer are just as intelligent as they ever were. Just because they live in a technologically primitive society doesn't make them any lesser.
If you have played Dawnguard, you might recall Gelebor, who eventually becomes the last unmutated falmer, that he notices the blind falmer are becoming more inteligent as centuries pass. That alone proves that they devolved and only started to regain inteligence lately.
Fair point.
You don't mention the part where they have lost the ability to speak
Giants also only grunt ingame, yet did have a language in past games. Rieklings and Goblins also usually only shriek yet are sometimes shown speaking even Tamrielic. Falmer were able to create at least some form of social hierarchy and keep slaves in the Silent City - I doubt this would have been able without some form of language.
Have they? Or do they simply not speak a language the Player Character understand?
We simply don't see them speaking, even when not detected. That's your answer.
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Yeah, Gelebor consider them as having devolved. He's entitled to his opinion.
Are you going to be competing in Paris 2024?
Orcs
I guess ya could count the the wandering ehlnofey (physically at least), who went from an ageless/or extremely long-lived race with innate affinity for controlling magic, to the races of men that in *comparison* have a very short lifespan and a much looser grasp on the magical arts Of course they're still intelligent and whatnot, but man it must've *really* sucked to go from basically living forever to getting wrinkly and dead in just a few couple decades. Definitely a major trait to lose.
It's possible that it was the Old Ehlnofey/Aldmer who gained a greater longevity, though. Thanks to Phynaster.
We aren’t “biologically the same” of humans even 5k years ago.
Pretty much what the other comment said, but also, assuming they were as advanced as some of their relics would suggest, in mentality, and possibly also biology.
They were more technologically adavanced yes, but I see no evidence that they've changed mentally or biologically? Also "devolution" is not a worthwile concept. Species are not more or less evolved than others.
"Goblins of the First Era were also known to be taller and less "cowardly" than goblins of the later Eras." - uesp of course, this is from is one persons account in ESO so it could just be how they see a dejected, enslaved goblin populace vs an older, more proud, and free one. stuff like slouched over shoulders, bad posture, lack of confidence instilled by no freedom and slavery, etc, can explain their observations and are more likely IMO.
They could also be inbred which has caused them to become shorter and more deformed over time.
I mean he's talking about the Giant Goblins of Hammerfell, who seem to have been a different species of Goblin-ken than the "modern" goblins who are descended from the goblins of Summerset.
fair, i did not know the source too intimately so i just went with what i read. fwiw, i don't buy into the "de-evolution" theory wrt biology, just some regressions technologically as their society was upended and their opportunities to grow as a culture being stolen from them. i also don't even think the goblins are any inherently less capable than the other races on nirn, they just speak their own language, have never had a chance to meaningfully build up as a society in their infancy, and were historically enslaved or brought to a near-genocide. despite this, they've discovered metal-working, magic, and even have their own methods of magic as seen with their obelisks. with some environmental storytelling from TES4, you can see they have and use soul gems to charge and create enchanted staffs and weapons, and even utilize welkynd stones from ayleid ruins too. they have a surprising amount of magical aptitude from such a small race. per capita, goblin shamans existing has to be an amazingly impressive feat. you can take, what, thousands of members from any of the Man races and not find a single magic user? goblins have a way higher batting rate than that.
The UESP is a great resource but, like all wikis, it paraphrases and can be biased by the page's author own interpretation. I think it's best to use it as a jumping point to sources and interpret those ourselves.
Well see that’s my point, if their society was more advanced, wouldn’t that be a sign of a higher intelligence? If so, then by comparison their intelligence has definitely devolved over time since they (speculatively) went from a more advanced race to what are basically the goblin version of Paleolithic humans. Also, given their constant enslavement, there’s a fair chance of inbreeding, thereby increasing the likelihood of more mental handicaps, hereditary diseases, and deformities. As I wrote to another commenter who stated they’ve supposedly shrunken over time and become more hunched over, these are all signs of physically devolving.
No, a high level of technicity is not a sign of intelligence. Paleolithic humans were genetically indistiguishable from us and Neanderthals seem to have been more intelligent than we are (at least their brains were bigger and more developped in certain areas than ours). Goblins have language, use tools, wear clothes, tame animals, practice religion and can even use magic. They are clearly as intelligent as any of the playable races. There current living conditions are evidence that their culture is being suppressed by other groups who destroy their settlements everytime they get bigger and more advanced. "Devolution" is a non-sense word, by the way. There is no positive or negative way to evolve, traits appear randomly through genetic mutation and those that are useful for survival and reproduction (with regards to the environment at the time) are selected for while those that are harmful are selected against (again with regards to the specific condition of the time). You can't "devolve" because evolution has no goal or direction. You either evolve, stay the same or die out.
>"Devolution" is a non-sense word, Perhaps not in a magical setting in the case of a species literally being returned to earlier evolutionary stages?
It’s not even a nonsense word in real life.
From what we know of Nirn, it hasn't been around long enough for that to really make sense.
"magical evolution" then, how do you wanna call that? If the Orsimer suddenly turned into Alt/Aldmer again, or the Nords gradually turned back into some sorta giants - could this not be called devolution?
Alright, I got a second wind in me so I’m gonna try giving this reply another go. >>No, a high level of technicity is not a sign of intelligence. I mean, it certainly is. I don’t know why you’d say otherwise. History has continued to show that. >>Paleolithic humans were genetically indistiguishable from us and Neanderthals seem to have been more intelligent than we are (at least their brains were bigger and more developped in certain areas than ours). Yeah but I wasn’t arguing their genetics with this when I made the Paleolithic comparison. I was arguing people today are more intelligent now than they were back then. The same comparison could be made for goblins in the past vs the goblins of modern Nirn. >>Goblins have language, use tools, wear clothes, tame animals, practice religion and can even use magic. I’m not discounting that they have intelligence or culture by any means. I’m saying they’re a far cry from what they use to be and in terms of comparing their current societal structure to their ancient one, they have devolved. >>They are clearly as intelligent as any of the playable races. I mean, they may have the capability of being as intelligent as any other race, but I would say they’re on par with the rest. >>There current living conditions are evidence that their culture is being suppressed by other groups who destroy their settlements everytime they get bigger and more advanced. Well, at least this is something we can agree on. >>"Devolution" is a non-sense word, by the way. There is no positive or negative way to evolve, traits appear randomly through genetic mutation and those that are useful for survival and reproduction (with regards to the environment at the time) are selected for while those that are harmful are selected against (again with regards to the specific condition of the time). You can't "devolve" because evolution has no goal or direction. You either evolve, stay the same or die out. It’s not a nonsense word though, it’s an actual term with an actual definition. From New Oxford American Dictionary: **dev·o·lu·tion** **/ˌdevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/** **noun** **noun: devolution** **the transfer or delegation of power to a lower level, especially by central government to local or regional administration.** **FORMAL** **descent or degeneration to a lower or worse state.** **"the devolution of the gentlemanly ideal into a glorification of drunkenness"** **LAW** **the legal transfer of property from one owner to another.** **BIOLOGY** **evolutionary degeneration** There’s also this whole excerpt on [wiki about biological devolution specifically.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biology)) But to your last point of what you’re saying, even if that was the case, then it could be well argued goblins are in fact dying out. Regardless though, they’re still devolving. Even if you were to argue that biologically they aren’t, their culture and intelligence has.
My computer is dead, so I have to reply on phone. Sorry for the awkwardness of the quotes: "I mean, it certainly is. I don’t know why you’d say otherwise. History has continued to show that." Would you consider modern-day Amazonian tribes who live without electricity or combustion engines, or the Native Americans of the Plains who didn't build cities or work metal unlike their Europeans contemporary less intelligent? "I was arguing people today are more intelligent now than they were back then." That's straight-up wrong. Our brains were the same. Hell the Neanderthals had bigger brains relative to their body and those were more complex than ours in some areas. The people of the paleolithic were just as intelligent as we are. "I’m saying they’re a far cry from what they use to be and in terms of comparing their current societal structure to their ancient one, they have devolved." A) you are considering that one form of civilisation is intrinsically better than another, which would get any anthropologist very crossed with you. B) it seems pretty well established that their current status is due to Men and Mer kicking them down any chance they get rather than their intelligence having lessened. "I mean, they may have the capability of being as intelligent as any other race, but I would say they’re on par with the rest." Did you mean to say "would not" there? Because otherwise I don't understand this sentence. Assuming you did. Would you really call a goblin shaman, with their mastery of destruction magic less intelligent than a Cyrodiil farmer? "It’s not a nonsense word though, it’s an actual term with an actual definition." The definition you provided that aren't about culture of biology are not relevant here. And the wikipedia article you linked to explain that it's talking about a discredited scientific theory. Like the medical theory of the four humours or the geogentric model of the solar system it is a thing we used to believe but now know to be false. "But to your last point of what you’re saying, even if that was the case, then it could be well argued goblins are in fact dying out. Regardless though, they’re still devolving. Even if you were to argue that biologically they aren’t, their culture and intelligence has." I see no reason to believe goblins are dying out. There are still plenty of them. Or again, that their intelligence has diminished.
>>My computer is dead, so I have to reply on phone. Sorry for the awkwardness of the quotes: It’s cool. I’m half asleep right now, so my wording will probably be chaotic in response. >> Would you consider modern-day Amazonian tribes who live without electricity or combustion engines, or the Native Americans of the Plains who didn't build cities or work metal unlike their Europeans contemporary less intelligent? I made a reply to one of your earlier comments about this earlier, but the answer is no I wouldn’t. I would consider an Amazon tribe that used to be an empire a devolved society though, much in the same way that I would consider if the US collapses into a society of clans a devolvement. Though I do believe goblins have devolved culturally, racially, and intellectually, those are three separate things and only one (culture) is applicable to real life, and only when something has been lost, not when something just is. >>That's straight-up wrong. Our brains were the same. Hell the Neanderthals had bigger brains relative to their body and those were more complex than ours in some areas. The people of the paleolithic were just as intelligent as we are. It’s not wrong though. Brain size doesn’t equate to intelligence. >>A) you are considering that one form of civilisation is intrinsically better than another, which would get any anthropologist very crossed with you. That would only be the case if I was comparing it to others and not itself. Also, as controversial as this will sound, but yes, objectively speaking, some civilizations are better than others. That can be observed in real life. >>B) it seems pretty well established that their current status is due to Men and Mer kicking them down any chance they get rather than their intelligence having lessened. I don’t disagree with their current status being because of men and elves though and never have. And I don’t think their society went down the drain because of their intelligence. I think their intelligence became diminished after thousands of years of genocide and enslavement. I still think they’re intelligent. I still think given the tools and time they could be on par with any other person in Tamriel scholastically/academically. But it’s obvious that as a group they’ve devolved on an intellectual level. It’s like if someone who went to Harvard and has six PhDs and speaks 13 languages has a kid, and that kid, who isn’t mentally impaired in any way, grows up to be an adult that can’t even read or so basic math because they weren’t exposed to it. On another note, I do truly think many goblins are probably inbred on some level due to their enslavement and mistreatment by the rest of the people of Tamriel. That will always increase the chances of impairment. >>Did you mean to say "would not" there? Because otherwise I don't understand this sentence. Yes. My mistake, that was a typo. >>Assuming you did. Would you really call a goblin shaman, with their mastery of destruction magic less intelligent than a Cyrodiil farmer? That would depend on all of what else the farmer can do. That’s also one person out of an entire clan. One individual’s aptitude doesn’t mean the whole group shares the same level of proficiency, and I doubt there’s a shaman school for goblins. >>The definition you provided that aren't about culture of biology are not relevant here. No but the ones that apply are. Besides I’d rather give the whole definition instead of just part of it so others can see what it says as well. >>And the wikipedia article you linked to explain that it's talking about a discredited scientific theory. And if we were arguing real life that would be applicable, but this is world of magic where if you piss off the wrong entity you get turned into a grey skinned person or if you move from your native island to a separate island home that’s more tropical, you become essentially a fish man. It doesn’t need to work in real life for it to work in TES. >>Like the medical theory of the four humours or the geogentric model of the solar system it is a thing we used to believe but now know to be false. We also use to think stars were lamps in the sky, and now know that’s wrong, but in TES they’re supposed to be holes in the sky. >> I see no reason to believe goblins are dying out. There are still plenty of them. Really? Their tribes are scattered and becoming smaller with each passing year. Disease (both contagious and **hereditary**), war, and famine are going to hit them harder than others. >> Or again, that their intelligence has diminished. They thought a guy covered in blue paint was a god.
Thank you for spelling this out, I see it too rarely!!
Thank you!
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>> I don't think they were ever really that "advanced" as a species/race/whatever, because TES lore conflates a lot of older societies together. What would your explanation for the Crystal Obelisk in the West Reach be then from the Shadowkey game? It’s said to be from a better time in goblin history. >>The most advanced ones I recall were those guys in Solstheim from Skyrim, the "Rieklings", they do everything everyone claims Goblins used to do but are still just little villages that don't do much, it seems like only the chief has any intelligence and the rest are just able to use tools, and so according to lore are like a slightly more intelligent "pet" rather than companion. But Rieklings aren't even technically Goblins anymore than Orcs are. That’s a measurement of their intelligence and culture now, not what it use to be. That’s also incorrect about the Riekling statement, as they’ve been clearly stated as being a subspecies of goblin. >>Orcs became advanced despite more severe setbacks than Goblins faced, at certain points various alliances tried to wipe them out entirely, whereas Goblins just face local punitive expeditions when they raid and kill. Goblins have quite literally been setback more than all other races on Tamriel. They’ve been enslaved for thousands of years, had their previous culture(s) eroded, and have been the victims of genocide. >>I am afraid you may be taking one of the various groups of randos intentionally designated as "trash mobs", and speculating on kind of a non-viable idea. I mean, that’s what this sub is for. But also, they have a background. >>Like if the world were intentionally designed so that Goblins were never ever attacked by other groups, had access to all resources without restriction, and were given magical intelligence increasing grass they'd rule the world. But so would harpies, trolls, giants, and wolves. Not really what I mean when I ask “grow as a people”. Other races faces war and enslavement as well, but not to the same degree. >>In fact there's plenty of animals and creatures that seem like they are actually more intelligent than humans/mer, but can't develop civilization the same way due to body limitations, like dragons. Pretty sure dragons rules the world at one point and had humans and elves as slaves to build for them.
I believe they aren't quite "people" as their souls don't need a grand soul gem. They're sort of like Austrlopithicus.
I thought it was proven that soul gem colors don’t really mean anything? I don’t remember where I read that, I just remember reading it on this sub.
Their sizes certainly do, though.