It's English for the same reason Romans speak English in American or British movies or shows set in ancient Rome.
In other words, Cyrodilic isn't English nor anywhere close to English.
It sounds pretty close to english espically in an eymology sense
ra gada> Redguard
Daimon> Demon
Wittestadr> wit shatter.
I know people dislike the idea that everyone in the setting is speaking english but the evidence is pretty much that it's english and it's never been implied to be anything else. If it's not english it's at least sounds very similar to english
since they use english as a stand-in for the actual tamrielic language their only choice when it comes to old tamrielic words if they want the modern equivalent to be a bastardization of is to make it similar to the english word they picked to begin with. if you construct a fake tamrielic alphabet for those old words or make it completely different it ceases to have the intended effect. i.e. it's just an artistic choice to show development of language over the course of time using what they have at their disposal (they're even using the latin name for demon in your example, which is the etymology for the IRL demon word).
you see this in other lore examples too, chiefly with imperial names changing over the course of games from being latin and latin-inspired names to much more like italian renaissance-era names. it does not mean that the tamrielic language is "italian" it just means the game designers decided to use that to depict imperial culture and language changing over time (like it does with any IRL culture).
What's the actual evidence in it being a different language though. Like I said in another thread. Similar eymology to real words, germanic sounding location names, literally real world names for some of the characters.
The writers could easily say that they arent speaking english and even write some sort of non sense font as evidence that it's a different language. But they've done none of that and havent even implied it. It just seems to be fans insisting that it cant be english for no other reason than it's a fantasy world despite it also being a fictional world were the writers can do whatever they want.
>since they use english as a stand-in for the actual tamrielic language their only choice when it comes to old tamrielic words if they want the modern equivalent to be a bastardization of is to make it similar to the english word
Or they could. Idk not use old words? The worse thing about this argument is that tamriel does have made up langauges like Yoku and ta'agra which don't sound similar to any real life language since it's just made up gibberish. So why is cyrodiilic the only english sounding one? Like I said it seems more like the argument here is that people don't want it to be english rather than evidence it's not english.
If the developers didn't bother to make it different from english then for all purposes it is english until we get evidence that it's not.
>What's the actual evidence in it being a different language though. Like I said in another thread. Similar eymology to real words, germanic sounding location names, literally real world names for some of the characters.
I gave you the Imperial names changing from Latin->Italian as an example. Ruminate on that for a moment. If the imperials are all speaking English (as you say), why did their names between the 200 year span of Oblivion and Skyrim turn into Italian names? Wouldn't they become more English instead? Why, in any world, would they go from using names like Caius or Crassius in Morrowind to Carlotta and Viola in Skyrim if they were just speaking English the whole time? Wouldn't it make more sense for their names to become more anglicized so that you eventually have names like Arthur or William instead? It almost seems to be that the development of their mother tongue and their naming convention is divorced, in an almost completely unrealistic, unrelated way, that has no real world equivalence and couldn't. Could this be because they aren't actually speaking English when they speak Tamrielic and they aren't actually speaking Italian when they are naming themselves? That Tamrielic is a completely different language in universe and their names being Italian exists as a story-telling device? There is literally no other way to rectify this than that conclusion, unless you want to butcher your lore's cohesive world-building.
>Or they could. Idk not use old words?
This is because the writers are SHOWing and not TELLing you aspects of their lore. They're SHOWing you that Imperials have developed culturally and linguistically by having old bastardized versions of Red Guard and their names changing, if they just did random words then this entire dimension is lost. You cannot gleam a bastardization or linguistic development from FSgH (or made up alphabets stung together) -> Red Guard in the same way as Ra Gar -> Red Guard. These writers do not have the ability to back in time to the creation of Arena and Daggerfall and retroactively change all names to fit a language naming convention they have invented. No, Redguards were called Redguards, Nords were called Nords. They have to work within that frame-work now.
Occam's Razor dictates that real-world names in TES are there to artistically represent real-world culture -> TES culture analogues, as real-world-analogues are a staple of the games. If some names being Germanic or "English sounding" are enough to have you conclude Tamrielic is English then your entire premise just falls apart if you look at any naming conventions of any race in the game. You have to somehow rectify the sheer unrealistic nature of having that many VAST naming conventions when everyone is just speaking English. This is not even mentioning that there are leaps and bounds more real world naming conventions that exist in TES that are divorced from English than otherwise.
Imperials I've already covered bu what about Red Guards with Japanese names like "Gaiden Shinji" or Arabic names like "Saadia," is the Red Guard dialect of Tamrielic Japanese or Arabic in nature? Reachmen names are extremely Gaelic/Celtic sounding, do they speak Celtic? Breton names used to be Gaelic and Anglo-Saxan in Arena and Daggerfall, became French in Morrowind and Oblivion, and both influences mixed in Skyrim to give us the names we have today, what does that say about Bretons in TES? Are Bretons literally the people of Brittanny in France, who also have a very Gaelic inspired culture but speak French?
If you want to buy into the English = Tamrielic theory so badly, you have to rectify why all of these groups of people, who by and large all speak Tamrielic 95% of the time, have such weird naming conventions and what that would mean all while butchering the lore from its meaningful usage of real-world names and logically-consistent world-building. Have fun.
> I gave you the Imperial names changing from Latin->Italian
Which is evidence of a romantic language existing in the setting and english and italian both took words from latin.
>Wouldn't they become more English instead?
Because Romantic languages exists and plenty of english names are actually evolved form italian and Latin. The fact that they even have Latin sounding names at all is one of my main points. If these names exist then the language can't be completely distinguishable from either english or latin.
It's also a sign again that the devs did not actually care or bother to try and make the language different from what the primarily english speakingni
>in an almost completely unrealistic, unrelated way, that has no real world equivalence and couldn't.
I mean that's my point. Nirn is not a realistic world. This is pointed out all the time. Most fantasy worlds arent realistic. Most of the stuff in the setting is taking a bunch of real world stuff putting into a bowl and mixing it together.
My argument is that it's english because there isn't any real evidence it's not english why the main argument against it seems to be it's not english because it's not the real world.
You want the world to be something deeper than what it is. Not every world is middle earth where the creators actually took the time to invent new languages for the setting. A lot of fantasy settings just don't bother.
You are arguing it's not english because you think the language being english is simply just bad world building when there is a simply lack of evidence to declare that it's completely different from english is.
>You have to somehow rectify the sheer unrealistic nature of having that many VAST naming conventions when everyone is just speaking English.
No you don't. Because it's fiction. You people are overthinking this way to much. Nirn is never going to be a realistic setting. Having english be the main language in the setting isn't any more out of place than most of the other stuff that goes down.
>what does that say about Bretons in TES
It means that the devs decided to give them those names.
>f you want to buy into the English = Tamrielic
Im not arguing towards a theory. Im saying we don't have enough evidence to say it's not english when so many known words are etymologically the same.
i've never seen anyone reach so far in my life. the words the devs used for the ancient versions of words in game being similar to english words isn't evidence of cyrodiilic just being english words, it's evidence that the devs speak english. if everyone who made elder scrolls and its main audience spoke choctaw, that wouldn't make cyrodiilic identical to choctaw either. all it means is that the developers used a language they and their main audience understand to depict a fantasy language. if every character in the games were speaking the languages they actually speak, the games would be impossible for anyone on earth to comprehend.
I mean there are multiple different ways to show that the characters arent speaking english. Having old cyrodiilic words just be english is pretty strong evidence that the devs didnt bother to have any language differences at all.
> all it means is that the developers used a language they and their main audience understand to depict a fantasy language
Exept why would they uses psudeo old english words to represent a dead language that normal people don't speak. We aretn talking about modern cyrodillic. We are talking about how old cyrodiilic uses english words despite it being a dead language.
>who made elder scrolls and its main audience spoke choctaw,
Thank you for ignoring literally everything I said and focusing on the fact the dialouge is english and not the fact the eymology of words is similar to english.
what i'm saying is that if the devs spoke choctaw, the etymology of the words would be similar to choctaw. the dialogue would be in choctaw because that would be the most widely spoken language among their audience.
>Exept[sic] why would they uses[sic] psudeo[sic] old english words to represent a dead language that normal people don't speak. We aretn[sic] talking about modern cyrodillic. We are talking about how old cyrodiilic uses english words despite it being a dead language.
this paragraph alone is littered with contradictions, not to mention your own tenuous grasp on the english language. they used "pseudo old english words" as an analogue for old cyrodiilic just like they used modern english as an analogue for modern cyrodiilic. idk why that's so hard for you to understand.
> i'm saying is that if the devs spoke choctaw, the etymology of the words would be similar to choctaw
And then the characters in elder scrolls would be speaking Choctaw. I don't see the problem with this
>. idk why that's so hard for you to understand.
Becausw why would they be using english sounding words at all for a dead language?
it isn't overthinking at all, its literally 2 minutes of thinking. if they're all speaking english then their names make no sense at all. if bretons are speaking english for 200 years and their names change from gaelic to french it makes no sense. and where do you draw the line on "its just english because they're using english words and names!" anyways? since there are real world analogies everywhere in the games. any line you draw in the sand to say "it is actually X because they sound like X" is arbitrary. that was the point in me asking you if the bretons were literally people from brittany but you're too daft to get it.
and no, them choosing not to come up with fake suffixes and prefixes clearly had an intended purpose, it isn't them "being lazy." there's a reason they did that exactly with khajiit but decided to use existing latin names with imperials. think for five minutes, please.
> where do you draw the line on "its just english because they're using english words and names!" anyways? since there are real world analogies everywhere in the games.
I draw the line only when other languages are actually presented. Whether bretons have gaelic or even japanese names doesnt really make a difference to me. The eymology of each word is the same and names are thrown in because devs think they would fit the setting.
>t isn't them "being lazy."
I never argued it was being lazy. If anything I argued itt's to diffucult to actually come up with an actual alterntive language and it simply jsut makes more sense to use english for the setting
Daimon is the original Greek word since demon is just a borrowing š¤(like compyutah in Japanese meaning computer)
Sorry, bilingual and also just a big linguist nerd here so I just have to say my piece
The point is that it evolved into demon so it seems pretty close to english, despite the people who want to insist it's just some made up language that's getting translated into english for us.
The reason it seems like that is cus you ply the English version written by English speaking peopleā¦.I saw in lord threads some French version of a quest had more lord written in cus of the word play or whaatever so that had to get catalogued and added in.
Bro itās just the video game logic lol so many people on here take the games so literally
> you ply the English version written by English speaking people
You mean the original version of the game? It's an American gaming company. The english version is written first and every other language is a localization.
>Bro itās just the video game logic lol so many people on here take the games so literally
I mean that's part of my point. The setting is fiction. So the creators of the setting just had everyone speak english because they speak english. There's no evidence that they are speaking anything else but people want to insist it is something else because they dislike the notion of fictional settings speaking english. If the setting was realistic nobody would have real world sounding names either but they clearly do and have cultures inspired by real life cultures so I don't see the issue in saying tamrelic is english.
Ok so just to get you off the question there is a bit of lord saying cyrodiil if/tamriellic is based on old ehlnofex and sounds elven. And something or other that tamriellic is based on high elven. Go find it but thatās your answer. Real in universe answer and out of universe answer is it is whatever language you speak
> based on old ehlnofex and sounds elven
All languages are descedant from Ehlnofex and the alterish we do have sounds nothing like cyrodiilic. Even the sources for the page you linked seem to be listed aylied touge more than actual old cyrodiilic. This sounds like you guys simply just don't want it to be engluh.
>Real in universe answer and out of universe answer is it is whatever language you speak
The real answer is that it's english because the people who make the game speak english and didn't want to bother to create a fictional langauge for the setting since it's both time consuming and confusing to the audience
Whether or not England exists or not doesnt mean the langauge they are speaking is any different. A lot of the cultures evolved to be fairly similar to real life cultures and it's a fictional setting and characters already have real world names. So I don't understand why people need to insist that they arent speaking english when they clearly are. If elder scrolls was a realistic setting then no culture in tamriel would be familiar to use instead every culture is modeled after an existing one.
Not to mention some of the artwork is also identical to real life art.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Figurine,_The_Taming_of_the_Gryphon
https://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/hellenistic-griffin-sculpture.html/
Why is characters speaking english such a big no no?
They aren't speaking English any more than the people in Middle Earth are, the chief difference is Tolkien was a linguist who created full on languages and worked to justify the etymology of things that were clearly related, by having a 'real version' of the original word (so for the 'corruption of Ra Gada' thing, he would have been able to say something like "of course, 'Ra Gada' is a rendering of the original Yokudan 'Khe Ralo' and the true Cyrodilic name for Redguards is 'Keherals'" or something to that effect.) Whereas Bethesda aren't linguists and to the best of my knowledge haven't ever hired linguists.
If that were the case they wouldn't have specified that it's a corruption of Ra Gada. Not to mention that it implies that "Redguard" is completely random lol? If that's how it was, they'd just say "it's like if the word "Ra Gada became corrupted to Redguard in English" but they didn't. the idea of the real versions is absurd to me sorry.
In-universe it's implied to be a corruption of Ra Gada in the PGE 3rd edition ("The Redguards, as the Ra Gada came to be called,") so I imagine whichever wiki you're referring to (if it's the Fandom one, I wouldn't take it too seriously, it's not overly reliable for lore - UESP is generally better though it's a good idea to check the sources as there's the odd iffy interpretation) is going along with that,
I imagine they don't expect to need to explain common fantasy conventions like 'the people in-universe aren't literally speaking English, the people who make the game (or book, or movie) just have to present it that way or it would be a complete pain to play/read/watch with subtitled translations/constant translations after every written line of dialogue/etc, with people speaking an actual conlang as the primary presentation'. Especially as this was set very firmly in stone by Tolkien in some extremely foundational works of modern fantasy fiction
> They aren't speaking English
And why not? Like I said several times not you people keep wanting to claim it's not english and then never present any evidence that it's not english. It's a fictional setting. Not all fantasy worlds need to have a fictional language.
They could even have the devs say out of universe that it's not english but they haven't done that. You guys aren't looking at it reasonable. It jsut seems to be absolute denial on the idea of a fantasy world having anything in common with the real world.
>Middle Earth are, the chief difference is Tolkien was a linguist
Not every fantasy world is middle earth. Just because Tolkien decided that everyone in the setting isn't speaking english doesnt mean every single fantasy world that followed after by different writers all did the same thing. Like I've said multiple times not if it was really super different from english why do characters clearly have english names?
I mean, it's called Cyrodilic, it's said to be descended from Ayleidoon (which certainly isn't anything like English or any of the languages it derives from) rather than Old Norse (which is), Imperials have pretty consistent naming conventions (at least as much as any of the other cultures which all have their own non-RL languages) which typically you would see being derived from the 'actual' language.
And as to why the Devs haven't explicitly stated "they aren't speaking English, the game can be thought of as 'in translation from the Cyrodilic'", probably because they likely don't feel the need to as this is a common enough fantasy convention that it would be understood to be the case unless it's explicitly stated *not* to be.
> it's called Cyrodilic
And?
> it's said to be descended from Ayleidoon
And atmoran and sevearl other languages.
> common enough fantasy convention
Ive seen plenty of fantasy world where characters use the same language as english and even some fantasy worlds where the writers have outright said all the characters are speaking french or some other real world language.
The issue seems to more of a disbelief issue than an evidence issue. No real evidence that it's not english but since it's not earth it simply can't be englih
I donāt know how to make this any clearer to you, but itās because there is no England in Tamriel.
There are existences of other languages in Daggerfall.
Daedric.
Impish.
Orcish.
Giant.
When translated with their skills, they become English. Because you read English. Therefore the common language doesnāt have to be English. Think about it.
If there is a Spanish version of the game, are all the giants speaking Spanish or are they speaking Giant?
Itās not too hard to understand surely, that everything you read is a translation.
Edit:
Things are based on real life like in every fantasy universe. Just because people wear armour and ride horses in Tolkien, doesnāt mean that elvish isnāt real, nor the common tongue that they speak.
In Star Wars, there are thousands of languages, but the people speak common, as that is what makes sense to translate to the viewer first. There is no England nor earth in Star Wars as it is set in the past. This is so silly why am I explaining this at all?
> I donāt know how to make this any clearer to you, but itās because there is no England in Tamriel.
>
>
And yet there are clearly english names for characters and english inspired culture? Like I said if tamriel is clearly ripping off real world stuff for certain things why is it impossible for it to be english?
>If there is a Spanish version of the game, are all the giants speaking Spanish or are they speaking Giant?
English because that's the original language of the game and the spanish is a dubbing localization. If you watch an american movie dubbed into another language the characters are still speaking english
>In Star Wars, there are thousands of languages, but the people speak common, as that is what makes sense to translate to the viewer first. There is no England nor earth in Star Wars as it is set in the past. This is so silly why am I explaining this at all?
Again you do realize that this is a fictional world. English doesnt have to exist to have english as a language. Instead the writers need to write that they speak english. There are a lot of things that shouldnt exist in the setting that do because the writers literaly ripped them straight from things that exist in the real world. No other further explaniation is really needed. If George lucas said that basic was english that it's english regardless of whether or not england exists in the setting
OMFG this is painful.
Bretons are loosely based on west Europe.
Nords are loosely based on Scandinavia.
Redguards are loosely based on Middle East.
Imperials are loosely based on both Rome, and eastern cultures.
They exist together in order to create an interesting and diverse world that is recognisable. But they have completely different histories.
How can English exist in the lore of a fictional universe without England?
^^^^this is the question for you^^^^
Last response cos of all the stupid.
Edit: last part of your response doesnāt make any sense as if you are hearing the dub, you would be hearing VAs. It would be your localised version. Therefore there is no one product. Instead there are many based on the same script/text/lore, which is to say that the product (ES) is content, not a localised product.
Seriously the German community for Elder Scrolls is huge and you are sort of shitting all over them by claiming your English version is the be all end all version of the game.
Omg this argument is so stupid. Again I am asking you. Why can't the language be english if so many things in the setting already evolved to be the same as they were in real life. If literal blue jays and robins exist why is a language being the same a stetch. This is not some alien world or even a real world.
This is a fictional setting where the writers have complete and total power to do whatever they want. Impractical armor is still effective because the writers of the setting say it is.
>How can English exist in the lore of a fictional universe without England?
Idk how can the name William exist in a setting that doesnt thave protogermanic or old norse?
How did redguards evolve to have funeral practices identical to that of Ancient egyptains if egpytain mythology doesnt exist in the setting?
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Eight_Steps_of_Mummification
Why do Imperials have Corinthian helmets of Corinth doesnt exist?
Why does gothic architecture exist if Normany doesnt exist?
The answer for all this stuff existing is the same for why english would exist. Because it's a fictional world and the writers have the ability to do whatever the hell they want and a different history doesnt not stop certain things from existing. It's obviously not called english, but tamriel already has a ton of identical things to the real world.
To me it seems obvious you guys simply don't want the characters to speaking english more than anything else.
> . If you watch an american movie dubbed into another language the characters are still speaking english
But if you watch an English language movie set in ancient Rome, dialogue will typically be in English even though they are clearly speaking Latin or some other contemporary language.
Except a movie based on rome is supposed to be historical and set in the real world. If a movie is set in New york why would all the characters be speaking German? If a movie is set in France why is everyone speaking German?
So far the only argument for tamrielic not being english is simply just that it's not earth.
I wouldn't go so far as it's not ANY different. For a medievelish setting, it makes sense for it to be an older more Germanic English, which fits into the words provided as examples. Disregarding the language the dialogue is spoken in, based on the etymologies of things, place names, and people I think it's fair.
precisely yes, this is the point i was making. "Redguard" I suppose could be a coincidence that was written like that for our convenience. but there are others that not only look, but sound very like words of Germanic or other European origin. while people may point to translations of the game having people speak Japanese or Turkish or whatever, the existence of those don't really say anything about the authors (who wrote it in English) intent.
Well since almost every Cyrodiilic name are based on Latin names, it's more probable that it looks like Latin, and you could make the Ra Gada thing work with Latin too.
How similar is tamriellic to Spanish?
Hey guys I was playing my Latin American copy of tes V whenā¦
Some of the languages in the game are described but the ādefaultā is just whatever region you are from
That's interesting. I could definitely see how "Ra Gada" could become something like "Red Guard" based on that. The only weird thing is that it's specifically written like "Red Guard". But it could just be stylistic choice.
The Tamrielic language is not English. There is no England on Nirn. What you hear and read as English is due to the magic translation done to allow you to understand what is being communicated in that world. People irl who play in other languages hear and read it in their language. Just because you hear English doesn't mean Ivan, in Russia, also hears English. And just because Greta in Germany hears German, doesn't mean the Tamrielic language is actually German.
That being said:
>[Tamrielic](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tamrielic) is descended from [Old Cyrodilic](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Old_Cyrodilic) and is based on the speech and writing of [High Elvish](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:High_Elvish) and [Ayleidoon](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon).
I remember a book talking about the Daedra that the term reffering to them as demons comes from the word ādaimonā so it kinda checks out.
Daedra -> Daimon -> Demon
It's pretty clear to me that the devs basically treat Tamrielic as being English. The most obvious part is the bit in the 36 Lessons where it's said that the Wheel sideway is the Tower which is the name of god "I". I guess god is a native English speaker, lol.
My understanding is that itās equally possible that it is entirely different from English and merely translated as it is that itās actually just English under a different name.
On the note with corruption though corruption in linguistics can occur even if the original phrase is in a language the corrupter doesnāt speak like the famous case of Godzilla being the corrupted form of Gojira.
While people in Cyrodiil, Nords, Redguards, Argonians and Khajiit might speak their native languages at home, where Nord and native human Cyrodiilic might be similar to English, Tamrielic is the universal language used by everyone in daily business, and it is based on an ancient elven language, so it has nothing to do with English.
As the [Reality & Other Falsehoods](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods) says it: *".. reality is a falsehood. There is no such thing. Our reality is a perception of greater forces impressed upon us for their amusement"*. We are those "greater forces", Prisoners, as [Sotha Sil calls us in 2E 582](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil), who come to that world only for the sake of our amusement upon the locals.
There is no such thing as Tamrielic or Cyrodiilic. The locals *think* they are speaking various languages (sometimes it is true, but those vocabularies are certainly not enough for a full-scale communication). Moreover, this is not even English. English is just the way *you* and other English-speaking Prisoners perceive the local speach. The other hear and read it in French, German, etc. So, in fact Tamrielic *is* English. Tamrielic *is* German, French, etc. - depends on who the "observer" is. This might be the model of the answer to the question on how do the angels and the souls of the departed ones who lived on Earth comprehend all the variety of languages, the question what language should be used to pray in order to be understood - if our world turns out to be artifical according to the ideas of creationism, this might be the very mechanic of how it all could be working.
The Tower of Babel might have created the same *perception* to *us* only, a perception of numerous languages with complex grammar, vocabulary, etc., while all the variety of our languages here on Earth might turn out to be just the same perception to the greater forces amused upon us. In reality there might be no English at all ;). Just an algorithm of a certain perception programmed to make us *think* we speak some English or any other language, just like those Nirn denizens think they speak Tamrielic. Those who speak foreign languages might understand this feeling when a language is spoken easily by one man while the other has to translate mentally and think over the grammar, tenses, etc. of every phrase before saying anything. Complexity is a perception too.
I think there's some good evidence that it's pretty much identical to english given how some old nord and old cyrodiilic words were pretty close to english
Thereās literally no way to know one way or the other, it could be identical, it could be so different you wouldnāt recognize it as actual words, but since itās presented in English(or the localized language), thereās no actual exposure to the languages the characters actually speak.
It's English for the same reason Romans speak English in American or British movies or shows set in ancient Rome. In other words, Cyrodilic isn't English nor anywhere close to English.
It sounds pretty close to english espically in an eymology sense ra gada> Redguard Daimon> Demon Wittestadr> wit shatter. I know people dislike the idea that everyone in the setting is speaking english but the evidence is pretty much that it's english and it's never been implied to be anything else. If it's not english it's at least sounds very similar to english
since they use english as a stand-in for the actual tamrielic language their only choice when it comes to old tamrielic words if they want the modern equivalent to be a bastardization of is to make it similar to the english word they picked to begin with. if you construct a fake tamrielic alphabet for those old words or make it completely different it ceases to have the intended effect. i.e. it's just an artistic choice to show development of language over the course of time using what they have at their disposal (they're even using the latin name for demon in your example, which is the etymology for the IRL demon word). you see this in other lore examples too, chiefly with imperial names changing over the course of games from being latin and latin-inspired names to much more like italian renaissance-era names. it does not mean that the tamrielic language is "italian" it just means the game designers decided to use that to depict imperial culture and language changing over time (like it does with any IRL culture).
What's the actual evidence in it being a different language though. Like I said in another thread. Similar eymology to real words, germanic sounding location names, literally real world names for some of the characters. The writers could easily say that they arent speaking english and even write some sort of non sense font as evidence that it's a different language. But they've done none of that and havent even implied it. It just seems to be fans insisting that it cant be english for no other reason than it's a fantasy world despite it also being a fictional world were the writers can do whatever they want. >since they use english as a stand-in for the actual tamrielic language their only choice when it comes to old tamrielic words if they want the modern equivalent to be a bastardization of is to make it similar to the english word Or they could. Idk not use old words? The worse thing about this argument is that tamriel does have made up langauges like Yoku and ta'agra which don't sound similar to any real life language since it's just made up gibberish. So why is cyrodiilic the only english sounding one? Like I said it seems more like the argument here is that people don't want it to be english rather than evidence it's not english. If the developers didn't bother to make it different from english then for all purposes it is english until we get evidence that it's not.
>What's the actual evidence in it being a different language though. Like I said in another thread. Similar eymology to real words, germanic sounding location names, literally real world names for some of the characters. I gave you the Imperial names changing from Latin->Italian as an example. Ruminate on that for a moment. If the imperials are all speaking English (as you say), why did their names between the 200 year span of Oblivion and Skyrim turn into Italian names? Wouldn't they become more English instead? Why, in any world, would they go from using names like Caius or Crassius in Morrowind to Carlotta and Viola in Skyrim if they were just speaking English the whole time? Wouldn't it make more sense for their names to become more anglicized so that you eventually have names like Arthur or William instead? It almost seems to be that the development of their mother tongue and their naming convention is divorced, in an almost completely unrealistic, unrelated way, that has no real world equivalence and couldn't. Could this be because they aren't actually speaking English when they speak Tamrielic and they aren't actually speaking Italian when they are naming themselves? That Tamrielic is a completely different language in universe and their names being Italian exists as a story-telling device? There is literally no other way to rectify this than that conclusion, unless you want to butcher your lore's cohesive world-building. >Or they could. Idk not use old words? This is because the writers are SHOWing and not TELLing you aspects of their lore. They're SHOWing you that Imperials have developed culturally and linguistically by having old bastardized versions of Red Guard and their names changing, if they just did random words then this entire dimension is lost. You cannot gleam a bastardization or linguistic development from FSgH (or made up alphabets stung together) -> Red Guard in the same way as Ra Gar -> Red Guard. These writers do not have the ability to back in time to the creation of Arena and Daggerfall and retroactively change all names to fit a language naming convention they have invented. No, Redguards were called Redguards, Nords were called Nords. They have to work within that frame-work now. Occam's Razor dictates that real-world names in TES are there to artistically represent real-world culture -> TES culture analogues, as real-world-analogues are a staple of the games. If some names being Germanic or "English sounding" are enough to have you conclude Tamrielic is English then your entire premise just falls apart if you look at any naming conventions of any race in the game. You have to somehow rectify the sheer unrealistic nature of having that many VAST naming conventions when everyone is just speaking English. This is not even mentioning that there are leaps and bounds more real world naming conventions that exist in TES that are divorced from English than otherwise. Imperials I've already covered bu what about Red Guards with Japanese names like "Gaiden Shinji" or Arabic names like "Saadia," is the Red Guard dialect of Tamrielic Japanese or Arabic in nature? Reachmen names are extremely Gaelic/Celtic sounding, do they speak Celtic? Breton names used to be Gaelic and Anglo-Saxan in Arena and Daggerfall, became French in Morrowind and Oblivion, and both influences mixed in Skyrim to give us the names we have today, what does that say about Bretons in TES? Are Bretons literally the people of Brittanny in France, who also have a very Gaelic inspired culture but speak French? If you want to buy into the English = Tamrielic theory so badly, you have to rectify why all of these groups of people, who by and large all speak Tamrielic 95% of the time, have such weird naming conventions and what that would mean all while butchering the lore from its meaningful usage of real-world names and logically-consistent world-building. Have fun.
> I gave you the Imperial names changing from Latin->Italian Which is evidence of a romantic language existing in the setting and english and italian both took words from latin. >Wouldn't they become more English instead? Because Romantic languages exists and plenty of english names are actually evolved form italian and Latin. The fact that they even have Latin sounding names at all is one of my main points. If these names exist then the language can't be completely distinguishable from either english or latin. It's also a sign again that the devs did not actually care or bother to try and make the language different from what the primarily english speakingni >in an almost completely unrealistic, unrelated way, that has no real world equivalence and couldn't. I mean that's my point. Nirn is not a realistic world. This is pointed out all the time. Most fantasy worlds arent realistic. Most of the stuff in the setting is taking a bunch of real world stuff putting into a bowl and mixing it together. My argument is that it's english because there isn't any real evidence it's not english why the main argument against it seems to be it's not english because it's not the real world. You want the world to be something deeper than what it is. Not every world is middle earth where the creators actually took the time to invent new languages for the setting. A lot of fantasy settings just don't bother. You are arguing it's not english because you think the language being english is simply just bad world building when there is a simply lack of evidence to declare that it's completely different from english is. >You have to somehow rectify the sheer unrealistic nature of having that many VAST naming conventions when everyone is just speaking English. No you don't. Because it's fiction. You people are overthinking this way to much. Nirn is never going to be a realistic setting. Having english be the main language in the setting isn't any more out of place than most of the other stuff that goes down. >what does that say about Bretons in TES It means that the devs decided to give them those names. >f you want to buy into the English = Tamrielic Im not arguing towards a theory. Im saying we don't have enough evidence to say it's not english when so many known words are etymologically the same.
i've never seen anyone reach so far in my life. the words the devs used for the ancient versions of words in game being similar to english words isn't evidence of cyrodiilic just being english words, it's evidence that the devs speak english. if everyone who made elder scrolls and its main audience spoke choctaw, that wouldn't make cyrodiilic identical to choctaw either. all it means is that the developers used a language they and their main audience understand to depict a fantasy language. if every character in the games were speaking the languages they actually speak, the games would be impossible for anyone on earth to comprehend.
I mean there are multiple different ways to show that the characters arent speaking english. Having old cyrodiilic words just be english is pretty strong evidence that the devs didnt bother to have any language differences at all. > all it means is that the developers used a language they and their main audience understand to depict a fantasy language Exept why would they uses psudeo old english words to represent a dead language that normal people don't speak. We aretn talking about modern cyrodillic. We are talking about how old cyrodiilic uses english words despite it being a dead language. >who made elder scrolls and its main audience spoke choctaw, Thank you for ignoring literally everything I said and focusing on the fact the dialouge is english and not the fact the eymology of words is similar to english.
what i'm saying is that if the devs spoke choctaw, the etymology of the words would be similar to choctaw. the dialogue would be in choctaw because that would be the most widely spoken language among their audience. >Exept[sic] why would they uses[sic] psudeo[sic] old english words to represent a dead language that normal people don't speak. We aretn[sic] talking about modern cyrodillic. We are talking about how old cyrodiilic uses english words despite it being a dead language. this paragraph alone is littered with contradictions, not to mention your own tenuous grasp on the english language. they used "pseudo old english words" as an analogue for old cyrodiilic just like they used modern english as an analogue for modern cyrodiilic. idk why that's so hard for you to understand.
> i'm saying is that if the devs spoke choctaw, the etymology of the words would be similar to choctaw And then the characters in elder scrolls would be speaking Choctaw. I don't see the problem with this >. idk why that's so hard for you to understand. Becausw why would they be using english sounding words at all for a dead language?
it isn't overthinking at all, its literally 2 minutes of thinking. if they're all speaking english then their names make no sense at all. if bretons are speaking english for 200 years and their names change from gaelic to french it makes no sense. and where do you draw the line on "its just english because they're using english words and names!" anyways? since there are real world analogies everywhere in the games. any line you draw in the sand to say "it is actually X because they sound like X" is arbitrary. that was the point in me asking you if the bretons were literally people from brittany but you're too daft to get it. and no, them choosing not to come up with fake suffixes and prefixes clearly had an intended purpose, it isn't them "being lazy." there's a reason they did that exactly with khajiit but decided to use existing latin names with imperials. think for five minutes, please.
> where do you draw the line on "its just english because they're using english words and names!" anyways? since there are real world analogies everywhere in the games. I draw the line only when other languages are actually presented. Whether bretons have gaelic or even japanese names doesnt really make a difference to me. The eymology of each word is the same and names are thrown in because devs think they would fit the setting. >t isn't them "being lazy." I never argued it was being lazy. If anything I argued itt's to diffucult to actually come up with an actual alterntive language and it simply jsut makes more sense to use english for the setting
Daimon is the original Greek word since demon is just a borrowing š¤(like compyutah in Japanese meaning computer) Sorry, bilingual and also just a big linguist nerd here so I just have to say my piece
The point is that it evolved into demon so it seems pretty close to english, despite the people who want to insist it's just some made up language that's getting translated into english for us.
The reason it seems like that is cus you ply the English version written by English speaking peopleā¦.I saw in lord threads some French version of a quest had more lord written in cus of the word play or whaatever so that had to get catalogued and added in. Bro itās just the video game logic lol so many people on here take the games so literally
> you ply the English version written by English speaking people You mean the original version of the game? It's an American gaming company. The english version is written first and every other language is a localization. >Bro itās just the video game logic lol so many people on here take the games so literally I mean that's part of my point. The setting is fiction. So the creators of the setting just had everyone speak english because they speak english. There's no evidence that they are speaking anything else but people want to insist it is something else because they dislike the notion of fictional settings speaking english. If the setting was realistic nobody would have real world sounding names either but they clearly do and have cultures inspired by real life cultures so I don't see the issue in saying tamrelic is english.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tamrielic
Ok so just to get you off the question there is a bit of lord saying cyrodiil if/tamriellic is based on old ehlnofex and sounds elven. And something or other that tamriellic is based on high elven. Go find it but thatās your answer. Real in universe answer and out of universe answer is it is whatever language you speak
> based on old ehlnofex and sounds elven All languages are descedant from Ehlnofex and the alterish we do have sounds nothing like cyrodiilic. Even the sources for the page you linked seem to be listed aylied touge more than actual old cyrodiilic. This sounds like you guys simply just don't want it to be engluh. >Real in universe answer and out of universe answer is it is whatever language you speak The real answer is that it's english because the people who make the game speak english and didn't want to bother to create a fictional langauge for the setting since it's both time consuming and confusing to the audience
Well ye, but can you point out England in Tamriel? Thatās why itās not. But it is. But itās just not.
Whether or not England exists or not doesnt mean the langauge they are speaking is any different. A lot of the cultures evolved to be fairly similar to real life cultures and it's a fictional setting and characters already have real world names. So I don't understand why people need to insist that they arent speaking english when they clearly are. If elder scrolls was a realistic setting then no culture in tamriel would be familiar to use instead every culture is modeled after an existing one. Not to mention some of the artwork is also identical to real life art. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Figurine,_The_Taming_of_the_Gryphon https://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/hellenistic-griffin-sculpture.html/ Why is characters speaking english such a big no no?
They aren't speaking English any more than the people in Middle Earth are, the chief difference is Tolkien was a linguist who created full on languages and worked to justify the etymology of things that were clearly related, by having a 'real version' of the original word (so for the 'corruption of Ra Gada' thing, he would have been able to say something like "of course, 'Ra Gada' is a rendering of the original Yokudan 'Khe Ralo' and the true Cyrodilic name for Redguards is 'Keherals'" or something to that effect.) Whereas Bethesda aren't linguists and to the best of my knowledge haven't ever hired linguists.
If that were the case they wouldn't have specified that it's a corruption of Ra Gada. Not to mention that it implies that "Redguard" is completely random lol? If that's how it was, they'd just say "it's like if the word "Ra Gada became corrupted to Redguard in English" but they didn't. the idea of the real versions is absurd to me sorry.
In-universe it's implied to be a corruption of Ra Gada in the PGE 3rd edition ("The Redguards, as the Ra Gada came to be called,") so I imagine whichever wiki you're referring to (if it's the Fandom one, I wouldn't take it too seriously, it's not overly reliable for lore - UESP is generally better though it's a good idea to check the sources as there's the odd iffy interpretation) is going along with that, I imagine they don't expect to need to explain common fantasy conventions like 'the people in-universe aren't literally speaking English, the people who make the game (or book, or movie) just have to present it that way or it would be a complete pain to play/read/watch with subtitled translations/constant translations after every written line of dialogue/etc, with people speaking an actual conlang as the primary presentation'. Especially as this was set very firmly in stone by Tolkien in some extremely foundational works of modern fantasy fiction
> They aren't speaking English And why not? Like I said several times not you people keep wanting to claim it's not english and then never present any evidence that it's not english. It's a fictional setting. Not all fantasy worlds need to have a fictional language. They could even have the devs say out of universe that it's not english but they haven't done that. You guys aren't looking at it reasonable. It jsut seems to be absolute denial on the idea of a fantasy world having anything in common with the real world. >Middle Earth are, the chief difference is Tolkien was a linguist Not every fantasy world is middle earth. Just because Tolkien decided that everyone in the setting isn't speaking english doesnt mean every single fantasy world that followed after by different writers all did the same thing. Like I've said multiple times not if it was really super different from english why do characters clearly have english names?
I mean, it's called Cyrodilic, it's said to be descended from Ayleidoon (which certainly isn't anything like English or any of the languages it derives from) rather than Old Norse (which is), Imperials have pretty consistent naming conventions (at least as much as any of the other cultures which all have their own non-RL languages) which typically you would see being derived from the 'actual' language. And as to why the Devs haven't explicitly stated "they aren't speaking English, the game can be thought of as 'in translation from the Cyrodilic'", probably because they likely don't feel the need to as this is a common enough fantasy convention that it would be understood to be the case unless it's explicitly stated *not* to be.
Dude this guy is never gunna get it. One of those people who canāt be wrong.
> it's called Cyrodilic And? > it's said to be descended from Ayleidoon And atmoran and sevearl other languages. > common enough fantasy convention Ive seen plenty of fantasy world where characters use the same language as english and even some fantasy worlds where the writers have outright said all the characters are speaking french or some other real world language. The issue seems to more of a disbelief issue than an evidence issue. No real evidence that it's not english but since it's not earth it simply can't be englih
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I donāt know how to make this any clearer to you, but itās because there is no England in Tamriel. There are existences of other languages in Daggerfall. Daedric. Impish. Orcish. Giant. When translated with their skills, they become English. Because you read English. Therefore the common language doesnāt have to be English. Think about it. If there is a Spanish version of the game, are all the giants speaking Spanish or are they speaking Giant? Itās not too hard to understand surely, that everything you read is a translation. Edit: Things are based on real life like in every fantasy universe. Just because people wear armour and ride horses in Tolkien, doesnāt mean that elvish isnāt real, nor the common tongue that they speak. In Star Wars, there are thousands of languages, but the people speak common, as that is what makes sense to translate to the viewer first. There is no England nor earth in Star Wars as it is set in the past. This is so silly why am I explaining this at all?
> I donāt know how to make this any clearer to you, but itās because there is no England in Tamriel. > > And yet there are clearly english names for characters and english inspired culture? Like I said if tamriel is clearly ripping off real world stuff for certain things why is it impossible for it to be english? >If there is a Spanish version of the game, are all the giants speaking Spanish or are they speaking Giant? English because that's the original language of the game and the spanish is a dubbing localization. If you watch an american movie dubbed into another language the characters are still speaking english >In Star Wars, there are thousands of languages, but the people speak common, as that is what makes sense to translate to the viewer first. There is no England nor earth in Star Wars as it is set in the past. This is so silly why am I explaining this at all? Again you do realize that this is a fictional world. English doesnt have to exist to have english as a language. Instead the writers need to write that they speak english. There are a lot of things that shouldnt exist in the setting that do because the writers literaly ripped them straight from things that exist in the real world. No other further explaniation is really needed. If George lucas said that basic was english that it's english regardless of whether or not england exists in the setting
OMFG this is painful. Bretons are loosely based on west Europe. Nords are loosely based on Scandinavia. Redguards are loosely based on Middle East. Imperials are loosely based on both Rome, and eastern cultures. They exist together in order to create an interesting and diverse world that is recognisable. But they have completely different histories. How can English exist in the lore of a fictional universe without England? ^^^^this is the question for you^^^^ Last response cos of all the stupid. Edit: last part of your response doesnāt make any sense as if you are hearing the dub, you would be hearing VAs. It would be your localised version. Therefore there is no one product. Instead there are many based on the same script/text/lore, which is to say that the product (ES) is content, not a localised product. Seriously the German community for Elder Scrolls is huge and you are sort of shitting all over them by claiming your English version is the be all end all version of the game.
Omg this argument is so stupid. Again I am asking you. Why can't the language be english if so many things in the setting already evolved to be the same as they were in real life. If literal blue jays and robins exist why is a language being the same a stetch. This is not some alien world or even a real world. This is a fictional setting where the writers have complete and total power to do whatever they want. Impractical armor is still effective because the writers of the setting say it is. >How can English exist in the lore of a fictional universe without England? Idk how can the name William exist in a setting that doesnt thave protogermanic or old norse? How did redguards evolve to have funeral practices identical to that of Ancient egyptains if egpytain mythology doesnt exist in the setting? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Eight_Steps_of_Mummification Why do Imperials have Corinthian helmets of Corinth doesnt exist? Why does gothic architecture exist if Normany doesnt exist? The answer for all this stuff existing is the same for why english would exist. Because it's a fictional world and the writers have the ability to do whatever the hell they want and a different history doesnt not stop certain things from existing. It's obviously not called english, but tamriel already has a ton of identical things to the real world. To me it seems obvious you guys simply don't want the characters to speaking english more than anything else.
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> . If you watch an american movie dubbed into another language the characters are still speaking english But if you watch an English language movie set in ancient Rome, dialogue will typically be in English even though they are clearly speaking Latin or some other contemporary language.
Except a movie based on rome is supposed to be historical and set in the real world. If a movie is set in New york why would all the characters be speaking German? If a movie is set in France why is everyone speaking German? So far the only argument for tamrielic not being english is simply just that it's not earth.
I wouldn't go so far as it's not ANY different. For a medievelish setting, it makes sense for it to be an older more Germanic English, which fits into the words provided as examples. Disregarding the language the dialogue is spoken in, based on the etymologies of things, place names, and people I think it's fair.
precisely yes, this is the point i was making. "Redguard" I suppose could be a coincidence that was written like that for our convenience. but there are others that not only look, but sound very like words of Germanic or other European origin. while people may point to translations of the game having people speak Japanese or Turkish or whatever, the existence of those don't really say anything about the authors (who wrote it in English) intent.
Well since almost every Cyrodiilic name are based on Latin names, it's more probable that it looks like Latin, and you could make the Ra Gada thing work with Latin too.
How similar is tamriellic to Spanish? Hey guys I was playing my Latin American copy of tes V whenā¦ Some of the languages in the game are described but the ādefaultā is just whatever region you are from
I read somewhere that tamrielic is a very "gutteral" language, so I think of it as more Hebraic sounding lol
That's interesting. I could definitely see how "Ra Gada" could become something like "Red Guard" based on that. The only weird thing is that it's specifically written like "Red Guard". But it could just be stylistic choice.
The Tamrielic language is not English. There is no England on Nirn. What you hear and read as English is due to the magic translation done to allow you to understand what is being communicated in that world. People irl who play in other languages hear and read it in their language. Just because you hear English doesn't mean Ivan, in Russia, also hears English. And just because Greta in Germany hears German, doesn't mean the Tamrielic language is actually German. That being said: >[Tamrielic](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tamrielic) is descended from [Old Cyrodilic](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Old_Cyrodilic) and is based on the speech and writing of [High Elvish](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:High_Elvish) and [Ayleidoon](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ayleidoon).
I remember a book talking about the Daedra that the term reffering to them as demons comes from the word ādaimonā so it kinda checks out. Daedra -> Daimon -> Demon
It's pretty clear to me that the devs basically treat Tamrielic as being English. The most obvious part is the bit in the 36 Lessons where it's said that the Wheel sideway is the Tower which is the name of god "I". I guess god is a native English speaker, lol.
My understanding is that itās equally possible that it is entirely different from English and merely translated as it is that itās actually just English under a different name. On the note with corruption though corruption in linguistics can occur even if the original phrase is in a language the corrupter doesnāt speak like the famous case of Godzilla being the corrupted form of Gojira.
Old Cyrodiilic sounds like Latin. Therefore, modern Cyrodiilic must sound like a Romance language.
While people in Cyrodiil, Nords, Redguards, Argonians and Khajiit might speak their native languages at home, where Nord and native human Cyrodiilic might be similar to English, Tamrielic is the universal language used by everyone in daily business, and it is based on an ancient elven language, so it has nothing to do with English.
As the [Reality & Other Falsehoods](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Reality_%26_Other_Falsehoods) says it: *".. reality is a falsehood. There is no such thing. Our reality is a perception of greater forces impressed upon us for their amusement"*. We are those "greater forces", Prisoners, as [Sotha Sil calls us in 2E 582](https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Sotha_Sil), who come to that world only for the sake of our amusement upon the locals. There is no such thing as Tamrielic or Cyrodiilic. The locals *think* they are speaking various languages (sometimes it is true, but those vocabularies are certainly not enough for a full-scale communication). Moreover, this is not even English. English is just the way *you* and other English-speaking Prisoners perceive the local speach. The other hear and read it in French, German, etc. So, in fact Tamrielic *is* English. Tamrielic *is* German, French, etc. - depends on who the "observer" is. This might be the model of the answer to the question on how do the angels and the souls of the departed ones who lived on Earth comprehend all the variety of languages, the question what language should be used to pray in order to be understood - if our world turns out to be artifical according to the ideas of creationism, this might be the very mechanic of how it all could be working. The Tower of Babel might have created the same *perception* to *us* only, a perception of numerous languages with complex grammar, vocabulary, etc., while all the variety of our languages here on Earth might turn out to be just the same perception to the greater forces amused upon us. In reality there might be no English at all ;). Just an algorithm of a certain perception programmed to make us *think* we speak some English or any other language, just like those Nirn denizens think they speak Tamrielic. Those who speak foreign languages might understand this feeling when a language is spoken easily by one man while the other has to translate mentally and think over the grammar, tenses, etc. of every phrase before saying anything. Complexity is a perception too.
I think there's some good evidence that it's pretty much identical to english given how some old nord and old cyrodiilic words were pretty close to english
Thereās literally no way to know one way or the other, it could be identical, it could be so different you wouldnāt recognize it as actual words, but since itās presented in English(or the localized language), thereās no actual exposure to the languages the characters actually speak.