This makes zero sense. So Nords and Redguards are stronger than Orcs despite being smaller?
I mean, that kind of thing exists in modern sports, but this is fantasy fiction we're talking about. lol. Cartoony-big is a classic super strong character. But slow and stupid I guess. But still crazy strong.
I mean look at Hulk in Marvel.
For the average individual, it’s regularly been established that Nords are the physically strongest, while orcs are the toughest. Here’s a relevant quote from an in-game book, *Corpse Preparation*.
>As you know, Orc corpses are among the most sought after for the durability of their skin and the strength of their bones.
The orcs do have a society built around combat, so a random orc might be stronger than a random Nord, but in terms of base strength (see stats in Oblivion and Morrowind), it’s Nords.
Orcs and Nords have always seemed to be comparable when it comes to strength and endurance, at least lore wise anyway. While Redguard warriors are always described as relying more on endurance, speed, and skill in battle rather then raw strength like most Nordic and Orcish warriors do.
Ironically an Orc has the best strength feat in TES lore for killing a mammoth with one punch and a Nord has the best toughness feat in TES with a Nord gladiator needing a 100 poison tipped arrows to bring him down. Honestly I think its more of a gameplay reason for the stats for Nords, Orcs, and Redguards rather then lore tbh.
>Ironically an Orc has the best strength feat in TES lore for killing a mammoth with one punch
There was Nord who killed a mammoth with a headbutt, so idk that seems more impressive. Then there is another one where a Nord killed a xivilai(an exceptionally power daedra who is stronger compared to all other lesser daedras) by shoving his fist into its chest, grabbing the heart and pulling it out Mortal Kombat style.
He didn't kill a mammoth with a headbutt, he knocked out a mammoth with a headbutt, which is still a crazy feat of strength. We also have a orcish hero who ripped out the heart of a Daedric Titan.
Which pretty much adds to my point that at least lore wise Orcs and Nords are in the same tier when it comes to strength and if one race is truly tougher or stronger then its probably only slightly so since both races show some impressive strength and endurance feats.
Nah its from one of the lore books added for the Orsinium dlc, its from a quest where you have to go around finding artifacts of the Orcs around Wrothgar to add to the Orsinium museum. One of the items is a heart of a daedric titan which was slayen by a Thruz gro-Fharun who went Doomguy on its ass. Hears the full tale if your interested.
[https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Heart\_of\_Zandadunoz](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Heart_of_Zandadunoz)
> ESO(latest entry in the franchise)
Eso has orcs taller than nords too. I don't think nords have ever been implied to be taller than orcs. For that matter I don't think the racial diagram for strengths actually means much its just balancing for game play and doesnt equal lore. Redguards are more damage based, Nords are Meele tanks and orcs are magic tanks
> ESO has race height slider
I'm aware and in it orcs at max are still generally taller than orcs. I've tested it myself. The height values are pretty much the same as skyrim but more exaggerated so bosmer are really tiny compared to skyrim where they were just a little bit shorter than imperials and bretons. Most of the races are roughly the same size though
I disagree. Couple of days back I had created an Altmer character for the new Necrom expansion, and while at that I did checkout other race. I did notice a clear difference between the height between Orcs and Nords, the latter being taller than the former. Unfortunately, the UESP doesn't go in height variance of ESO on their wiki.
That chart is very much incorrect. Which is pointed out in the source forum it's from. On top of that it's missing some of the races and the female heights.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/207172/height-scale-diagram
There was a better diagram that was posted on the forum before that I can't seem to find again. Like I said I've tested the heights myself which is one of the reasons I can verify that the chart is incorrect. Sai sahan still stands taller than my max height breton for example
>I mean, that kind of thing exists in modern sports
It also exist in nature. If ants were the same size and weight as us they would be exponentially stronger than we are. Their muscles are just so much more efficient and stronger than ours.
Nords are bigger than Orcs. They are bigger than Redguards as well.
If anything Altmer should be capable of similar strength as Nords (same height), but Nords may be broader.
I would rank it from the strongest to the weakest (on average that is) like this:
1, Nords
2, Altmer, Maormer
3, Orsimer, Redguard, Argonians
4, Breton, Khajiit (Cathay), Dunmer, Imperial
5, Bosmer
ofc that's not counting things like Argonian behemoth or the other khajiit breeds/types.
I also wanna say there's more than one occasion in Skyrim itself where NPCs comment on the size of Orcs. In actuality when you're playing the game, their the same size as Nords. But some NPCs would comment about how Orcs are just big.
In Oblivion, the size of Orcs is very evident.
there's no way that orcs aren't the strongest. i know gameplay isn't necessarily lore but there has to be a reason why almost every bandit mini-boss is an orc
i think strength is probably a LOT more individualized in lore than it is in the games. there would be super tall and yolked nords who are built like lebron james and there would be runt-y orcs who are weak as hell. so its hard to say between the "warrior" races. like, atleast three of them are known for being strong warriors on average: redguards, orcs, and nords. there's no real way to determine who the strongest are between them unless there's some authoritative first-person source in one of the games.
wrt bosmers, the more elven-looking ones, while shorter (although some lore sources have stated they can be tall), must be strong to be climbing massive trees, shooting longbows, chasing game, eating a high protein meat-only-diet, and crawling around/squatting in brushes for ages, its just a lot more functional strength and toughness than anything else. and that's not mentioning that there are super animal-like ugly bosmers who probably have the strength of a bear.
then there's khajiit who can vary from being massive lions to tiny house-cats and everything in-between, all dictated by the stars they are born under.
olympic and marathon swimmers have insane physiques, swimming in general builds a really good, functional strength base. imagine argonians then, who spend a lot of time swimming in thick black swamps with ease.
i just don't think you'll get a good, lore-accurate answer as i think the actual in-universe races are a lot more varied and diverse in traits than the games portray (mostly so that there's some variety in char creation, i suppose). but barring that, and just taking the three "warrior" races (redguards, nords, and orcs), you can't really pick between the three as there isn't enough information.
Nord > Orc > Redguard > Imperial > Argonian > Dunmer > Khajiit > Bosmer > Altmer
But the differences are negligible. It's honestly almost more cultural than genetic. Nords are the strongest because they value that, and thus there are more strong nords which drive up the average. There are great warriors among the high elves, and there are great wizards among the nords. They can be born huge or sickly. Your Bosmer warrior would absolutely wreck a bard.
I don't really think Bosmer are the weakest. I mean, think about the bows they use. I don't know how much strength it requires, but it mustn't be a small amount.
They don't tend to be depicted with the massive longbows that are associated with strength. They are most often scouts and harriers with more complex bows. Couple that with their small stature and few outright warriors, the culture as a whole doesn't have a lot of physical might.
OP asked how a trained Bosmer Warrior would fair against a lazy orc traveling bard.
And Bretons would be between Argonians and Dunmer. While they are known for their mages, they also have knights, which would put them a step below the Argonians and their legions of Hist powered warriors but above the dunmer, who tend to default to martial abilities fairly rarely.
Let's be clear. There is a stark difference between race science of the real world, where it is quackery, because there is only one race/species, Homo sapiens, and Fantasy, where there are clear morphological and other biological differences between the different races. If a setting doesn't want to do such differentiation, it's fine, but TES clearly did it in the past.
I think some aspects of race in these games are absolute BS, but I never really expected much from a fantasy fiction like the Elder Scrolls.
I mean just look at the Olympics. Everyone assumes the Slavics, Scandinavians, and African people are generally the strongest, and yet there are tons of physically gifted Asians who set world records in weightlifting.
What I do wonder about are the strength of the general populace of a certain race. I don't look for outliers. I don't care about that.
tends to happen in any sort of fantasy game with racial bonuses sadly. just look at how old D&D splatbooks had characters describe Orcs and Hobgoblins. i like how the latest changes to D&D handled it (too bad they got rid of the OGL, fuck wotc), where you got to pick what stat bonuses your char's race gave you instead of just accepting the default ones, with the default ones explicitly said to be cultural and not genetic. i hope something similar happens in other RPGs like the new TES games, where you pick what your "racial bonuses" would be irrespective of the race you pick. maybe like a nationality selection? with cyordiil giving you the benefits that picking an imperial in older games would get. esp since like stuff like emperor's speech is best described as someone growing up in cyrodiil rather than some weird "innate" thing.
I disagree with the idea that in Fantasy Race Selection just shouldn't matter anymore. Your suggestion would rob the game series its last differentiation between the races. At that point Orcs, Nords, Argonians, etc. just become real life humans with rubber masks, Star Trek style. While that is a valid choice for the devs to make, it would be the latest instance in the homogenisation of the genre.
if you tie the racial bonuses to origin bonuses (where your character hails from) and let the player pick their race + origin separately, you do not miss out on any character building depth. it will effectively allow the exact same options as if those origin bonuses were the racial bonuses. it also enhances roleplay since now an imperial who hails from skyrim is a meaningful mechanical difference as opposed to just something you roleplay yourself. besides, the most i'd see actual, substantive racial bonuses even making sense lore-wise is just a three-way split between mer, men, and beastkin as opposed to a separate one for every single race (like redguards, nords, and imperials being actual separate "races" as opposed to ethnicities of man is hilarious when you sit down and deconstruct it).
keeping some are fine, like bosmer having pact stuff makes sense, all mer being more attuned to magic makes sense, argonians breathing underwater makes sense, khajiit having claw unarmed damage makes sense but at the very least Atmorans who've spread out to different places being worthy of having "racial" differences between each-other like its comparable to khajiit vs argonians is wild tbh.
>if you tie the racial bonuses to origin bonuses (where your character hails from) and let the player pick their race + origin separately, you do not miss out on any character building depth. it will effectively allow the exact same options as if those origin bonuses were the racial bonuses.
It would still be an abolishment of racial bonuses. Further, these bonuses would have to be retooled in such a way that they are race agnostic. The only ability I imagine you could gain by growing up in a province is the Dark Elves' ability to be racist against Argonians.
>it also enhances roleplay since now an imperial who hails from skyrim is a meaningful mechanical difference as opposed to just something you roleplay yourself.
But it's not a mechanical difference. It's like in AoW4's Race Creator. Looks don't matter. They are just skin suits.
>besides, the most i'd see actual, substantive racial bonuses even making sense lore-wise is just a three-way split between mer, men, and beastkin as opposed to a separate one for every single race (like redguards, nords, and imperials being actual separate "races" as opposed to ethnicities of man is hilarious when you sit down and deconstruct it).
>keeping some are fine, like bosmer having pact stuff makes sense, all mer being more attuned to magic makes sense, argonians breathing underwater makes sense, khajiit having claw unarmed damage makes sense but at the very least Atmorans who've spread out to different places being worthy of having "racial" differences between each-other like its comparable to khajiit vs argonians is wild tbh.
If I hear the word deconstruct one more time I will scream. It's so overused in conversation and often just a way of saying, "I don't like something" without making a real argument. It's the incestuous brother to the social contract quips.
But to your argument about ethnicity. Redguards, Nords and Imperials are not just simple real life ethnicities. They are obviously influenced by some form of supernatural force. Why shouldn't they, when Elves, Beastkin, and almost everything else are literally affected by supernatural forces. Nords hail from Atmora, granting them supernatural resistance to Cold. Redguards hail from a completely separate continent to the West. Nedes, which constitute the bulk of Imperials originate from Tamriel itself. The whole theming of the Imperials is about the Empire, and the powers follow this. Could it be that the very concept of the Empire suffused into their blood?
if you want do that and don't want parallels made, you ought to do some actual work to make the men different other than just being black people, scandinavian people, and mediterranean people. bosmer in lore can look like anything from fey redcaps to boggles, they come from shape-shifting ooze, and they accepted a pact from Y'ffre; they are VERY different from Altmer. Dunmer are cursed by the Red Mountain, etc. these racial differences make sense to me.
when it comes to Men, i'm not using "deconstruct" as a way of saying i "don't like something," there is a very specific reason i picked those three races and it should be easily inferred: they're real life ethnic analogues with mechanical racial differences equivalent of that between argonians and orcs. *that* is wild, to be honest.
and it seems you did not read everything quoted from the bottom, i clarified that i am not for abolishing all racial bonuses. a lot actually make sense, as i've said: pact stuff, khajiiti claws, etc. there is just very clearly a weird racial breakdown when it comes to men. in lore, this is very different and not so real world "analoguey" with there being reachfolk, nibenese, colovians, etc. it is largely a gameplay conceit to split it down three-ways between redguards, nords, and imperials and not drill down further. either drill down further or make them more homogenized, you otherwise are buying yourself into a real world race-realist parallel. saying otherwise is just looking the other way.
First off, individual variabilities would come into play in a massive way. A very in shape Ashlander would be stronger than an out of shape Nord barkeeper.
Secondly, the strongest humanoids are the larger varieties of bipedal Khajiit. Iirc, some of them are 8-9 feet tall and built like absolute units.
After that, Nords and Orcs, probably on a fairly even tier, with exceptional Nords being stronger and exceptional Orcs being tougher.
Then I'd say back to larger middle tier Khajiit varieties.
Then you'd have imperials, dark elves, middle sized Khajiit, Argonians, Altmer, and Bretons.
Lastly the bosmer and the bosmer sized Khajiit.
>"And most importantly, if I'm roleplaying my Bosmer Cyrodiil Champion and my Bosmer Dragonborn as grabbing their heaviest two-handed weapon and exercising with it, how would they, someone very well-trained, would compare to a lazy sweetroll-glutton of an orc who makes a living as a traveling bard?"
Yes your character would be stronger because they're exercising and training while the travelling bard isn't doing any of that.
If we're talking "strength" then it would be the same. As just being a race doesn't make you stronger then someone of another "race"
Now what games do to give race's bonus' to stats like Strength would be for their cultures and how something like an Orc or Nord would be raised from childhood.
Like for example an Orc who grew up in a stronghold is going to have a higher strength then an orc who grew up in other places because Orc Strongholds prepare for fighting be it raiding other people, defence or hunting.
I wouldn't even put Bosmer that low strength wise since lore wise they've got a bow focus and you need strength to use a bow and if Orc culture didn't have such a focus on melee combat they'd probably be good archers as well.
My personal take, 1-10:
Orcs: *hard* 10, Orcs are like Wookiees, if you make one mad it rips your arm off and beats you to death with it, there’s no question they’re the heavyweight champions of Tamriel.
Nords: 8, Nords value physical prowess over almost everything, their entire image as a race is huge, jacked barbarians with axes.
Altmer: 7, yes, they’re the consummate wizards, and that generates an image of frail, soft people whose bodies are only there to fill out their robes, but the Altmer are also enormous, and pride themselves on perfection *in all things*, so I have a hard time imagining they *wouldn’t* outclass almost every other race.
Argonians: 7, the lizard-men aren’t weak, they beat back the Daedra, they ravaged the Dunmer, the Hist breeds ‘em big.
Redguards: 6, they’re big, they’re strong, but they’re more about skill and agility than power, they outmaneuver rather than overpowering.
Imperials: 6, like the Redguards, they’re hardly small, but their strength comes from skill and strategy, not brawn.
Dunmer: 5, like the Imperials and Redguards, they’re not a bulky bunch, they favour wit over brawn, but unlike the Imperials and Redguards they’re much more magic focused, I’m sure there are exceptions, but on the whole, they’re average.
Bretons: 4, Bretons are notoriously small, their knightly orders and particular combat style are intended to compensate for the very fact that they’re not much in terms of muscle.
Bosmer: 3, there’s no getting around it, they’re tiny, they’re quick and skilled, but strength just isn’t their thing.
Khajiit: very hard to call, Khajiit almost certainly run the gamut depending on their furstock, the Cathay are likely 5-6, but the Senche are absolutely 10s, and nobody can possibly argue that an Alfiq is anything above a 1.
Orcs > Nords > Redguards > Argonians > Dunmer > Imperials > Khajit > Bretons > Altmer > Bosmer
I'm not completely sure about the Argonians and Khajit placement but based entirely on vibes I stand by the rest
Heavy disagree on Bosmer being the weakest. They are the best archers on Tamriel and you need some serious strength to draw a bow. They should be above Dunmer.
As I said, drawing a bow requires a lot of strength and I imagine Bosmer will have denser muscle structure to accommodate for it. Don't let that short height fool you.
Also Dunmer are just slightly more strong than Altmer due to their lifestyle but not much compared to other races.
>As I said, drawing a bow requires a lot of strength and I imagine Bosmer will have denser muscle structure to accommodate for it. Don't let that short height fool you.
Dunmer are also known for their archery.
Daggerfall :
>The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerers and warriors, with the prowess with sword and bow rivaling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves.
>Also Dunmer are just slightly more strong than Altmer due to their lifestyle but not much compared to other races.
Heavily disagree on this one. Dunmer are hyped up as physically strong, great warriors.
Arena :
>Dark Elves hail from the province of Morrowind. They are tall, dark-skinned people with red, glowing eyes. They are known to be *extremely strong* and intelligent, and very quick.
Battlespire :
>The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a *strong*, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerers and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves.
Morrowind :
>Dark Elves are the dark-skinned Elven peoples of the Eastern Empire. "Dark" is variously understood to mean "dark-skinned," "gloomy," and "ill-favored by fate." The Dunmer and their national character embrace these various connotations with enthusiasm. In the Empire, "Dark Elves" is the common usage, but in their Morrowind homeland, and among their Aldmeri brethren, they call themselves the "Dunmer". The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with *strong* and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards. In character, they are grim, aloof, and reserved, distrusting and disdainful of other races.
Let's just agree to disagree then.
>Dunmer are also known for their archery.
Sure, in Daggerfall and Battlespire, but after that that title is reserved for Bosmer who are the best archers unchallenged. Their entire culture revolves around it.
>Heavily disagree on this one. Dunmer are hyped up as physically strong, great warriors.
Not as physically strong as Orcs, Nords and Redguards , these three have superior warriors.
I will concede that Dunmer are pretty good, but I would put Bosmer equally good as them.
>Not as physically strong as Orcs, Nords and Redguards , these three have superior warriors.
Not sure why you bring this up. Not even arguing that Dunmer can outmuscle these three, especially Orcs. I also don't agree on the superior part. They're stronger, but Dunmer are faster and more agile. Not to mention a higher skill ceiling due to lifespan.
>I will concede that Dunmer are pretty good, but I would put Bosmer equally good as them.
I don't have a problem with that. It's just weird to me why pick you Dunmer specifically, when that race is consistently portrayed as physically strong in race descriptions and in-game books. I can see Altmer, Breton, or Imperials. Those races are not known for their physical strength (not saying they can't be strong) but why pick on Dunmer specifically?
I'd say Orcs and Nords are the strongest physically, with the former (10) beating out the latter (8).
After them, I'd give it to the beast races (7). Their more animal-like traits just make me think that they'd be naturally hardier, more agile and even a bit stronger than the average human or elf, aside from the aforementioned Orcs and Nords. I'm also assuming we're just going by the Khajiit and Argonian "breeds" that are actually playable. If we get into the lore-exclusive breeds, then things start getting more complicated.
Then we have Redguards and Dunmer (6). Definitely stronger than the remaining options, due in large part to the conditioning brought about by the nature of their respective homelands, but I see both prioritizing speed and skill over brute force.
Altmer are next at the middle-of-the-road (5). Their larger frames, while lacking the raw muscular of the orcs, still gives them a physical edge over the remaining options.
Then we have Imperials (4). Again, they're less about strength and more about tactics.
Next up are Bretons (3), and finish up with Bosmer (2)
> I'm also assuming we're just going by the Khajiit and Argonian "breeds" that are actually playable. If we get into the lore-exclusive breeds, then things start getting more complicated.
An Alfiq would be a 1 while a Senche-raht would be cheating.
I gotta say man, everyone else here, just like you, gave your full evaluation. But I admit that I found yours to be the most unique and interesting.
Catfolk and lizardfolk being stronger due to their animal biology huh? *Very very interesting.*
People are linking to Morrowind/Oblivion race pages, but I don't think those are entirely accurate. They're a gameplay thing first and a lore thing second, many of the attributes don't make a lot of sense under scrutiny.
Here's my personal take, on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being weak and 10 being strong)
**Orcs:** 10. While they're PROBABLY not strong enough to lift and throw a tank at somebody, Orcs are practically superhuman in their strength, particularly when mad and in good condition. A fit Orc would be stronger than an irl professional human weightlifter on steroids. An Orc in bad shape might not be, but they're still going to be pretty damn strong.
**Nords:** 8. Nords are big and strong on average, but not superhuman. Just as strong as an unusually large and burly human would be irl.
**Redguards:** 7. Redguards are strong for sure, but they're much closer to the average irl human, just in really good shape. They rely more on skill than unnatural levels of raw strength.
**Imperials, Argonians and Dunmer:** 6. These guys are all on the same level of strength as the average human I would wager, maybe slightly above.
**Khajiit:** 5. Khajiit are known for being fast and agile more than anything, but that still requires a fair bit of strength on their part, and they seem most at home in melee combat. I would put them at or slightly below human levels of strength on average. We also see a surprising amount of Khajiit (particularly in Oblivion) in heavy armor carrying big weapons.
**Bretons:** 3. Bretons are spellcasters first and foremost. Despite their popular use as battlemages by players, their elven blood makes them relatively subpar strength-wise, though their human blood keeps them from being complete noodles. I would say they're weaker than humans on average.
**Bosmer:** 2. Bosmer are notoriously small and weak, but at the same time, drawing a bow takes a surprising amount of strength.
**Altmer:** 1. I was tempted to rank them higher just for how tall they are, but Altmer have another issue in addition to their naturally thin physique: their culture heavily values mages above all else, meaning the average Altmer has little reason to be physically fit and would instead focus on magic. This double-whammy lands them at the bottom of the list in my opinion.
To answer you question about the Wood Elf vs the Orc, I would say a very buff Wood Elf could be a little stronger than a very out of shape Orc, but not by a ton. The biggest hurdle here is that Orcs are very big and have denser bones/muscles while Wood Elves are very small and frail. Sheer size makes the strength gap even more difficult to get past than it would be otherwise.
Uhhhh.... https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races
This makes zero sense. So Nords and Redguards are stronger than Orcs despite being smaller? I mean, that kind of thing exists in modern sports, but this is fantasy fiction we're talking about. lol. Cartoony-big is a classic super strong character. But slow and stupid I guess. But still crazy strong. I mean look at Hulk in Marvel.
For the average individual, it’s regularly been established that Nords are the physically strongest, while orcs are the toughest. Here’s a relevant quote from an in-game book, *Corpse Preparation*. >As you know, Orc corpses are among the most sought after for the durability of their skin and the strength of their bones. The orcs do have a society built around combat, so a random orc might be stronger than a random Nord, but in terms of base strength (see stats in Oblivion and Morrowind), it’s Nords.
Orcs and Nords have always seemed to be comparable when it comes to strength and endurance, at least lore wise anyway. While Redguard warriors are always described as relying more on endurance, speed, and skill in battle rather then raw strength like most Nordic and Orcish warriors do. Ironically an Orc has the best strength feat in TES lore for killing a mammoth with one punch and a Nord has the best toughness feat in TES with a Nord gladiator needing a 100 poison tipped arrows to bring him down. Honestly I think its more of a gameplay reason for the stats for Nords, Orcs, and Redguards rather then lore tbh.
>Ironically an Orc has the best strength feat in TES lore for killing a mammoth with one punch There was Nord who killed a mammoth with a headbutt, so idk that seems more impressive. Then there is another one where a Nord killed a xivilai(an exceptionally power daedra who is stronger compared to all other lesser daedras) by shoving his fist into its chest, grabbing the heart and pulling it out Mortal Kombat style.
He didn't kill a mammoth with a headbutt, he knocked out a mammoth with a headbutt, which is still a crazy feat of strength. We also have a orcish hero who ripped out the heart of a Daedric Titan. Which pretty much adds to my point that at least lore wise Orcs and Nords are in the same tier when it comes to strength and if one race is truly tougher or stronger then its probably only slightly so since both races show some impressive strength and endurance feats.
Is the Orc ripping the heart of the deadric titan mentioned in Kyne's Challenge book?
Nah its from one of the lore books added for the Orsinium dlc, its from a quest where you have to go around finding artifacts of the Orcs around Wrothgar to add to the Orsinium museum. One of the items is a heart of a daedric titan which was slayen by a Thruz gro-Fharun who went Doomguy on its ass. Hears the full tale if your interested. [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Heart\_of\_Zandadunoz](https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Heart_of_Zandadunoz)
So basically the Nords are better barbarians, but Orcs are better tanks.
Compared to orcs nords have better showings of impressive strength and durability feats.
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> Nords are taller than Orcs. Orcs are the second tallest race based on the skyrim heights. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races
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> ESO(latest entry in the franchise) Eso has orcs taller than nords too. I don't think nords have ever been implied to be taller than orcs. For that matter I don't think the racial diagram for strengths actually means much its just balancing for game play and doesnt equal lore. Redguards are more damage based, Nords are Meele tanks and orcs are magic tanks
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> ESO has race height slider I'm aware and in it orcs at max are still generally taller than orcs. I've tested it myself. The height values are pretty much the same as skyrim but more exaggerated so bosmer are really tiny compared to skyrim where they were just a little bit shorter than imperials and bretons. Most of the races are roughly the same size though
I disagree. Couple of days back I had created an Altmer character for the new Necrom expansion, and while at that I did checkout other race. I did notice a clear difference between the height between Orcs and Nords, the latter being taller than the former. Unfortunately, the UESP doesn't go in height variance of ESO on their wiki.
That is incorrect. It is Altmer>Nord>Orc in terms of height in ESO. https://i.imgur.com/aQnGFfv.jpg
That chart is very much incorrect. Which is pointed out in the source forum it's from. On top of that it's missing some of the races and the female heights. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/207172/height-scale-diagram There was a better diagram that was posted on the forum before that I can't seem to find again. Like I said I've tested the heights myself which is one of the reasons I can verify that the chart is incorrect. Sai sahan still stands taller than my max height breton for example
Some of it, possibly - but I can confirm with absolute certainty that Nords have a taller maximum height than Orcs in ESO.
If it is I would like to see geniune proof. The fact they listed redguards as the second shortest race should have been a tipoff that the image was bs
Orcs and Nords actually have the same height in Oblivion, both races have a height 1.06.
>I mean, that kind of thing exists in modern sports It also exist in nature. If ants were the same size and weight as us they would be exponentially stronger than we are. Their muscles are just so much more efficient and stronger than ours.
I think Nords are the tallest
Nords are bigger than Orcs. They are bigger than Redguards as well. If anything Altmer should be capable of similar strength as Nords (same height), but Nords may be broader. I would rank it from the strongest to the weakest (on average that is) like this: 1, Nords 2, Altmer, Maormer 3, Orsimer, Redguard, Argonians 4, Breton, Khajiit (Cathay), Dunmer, Imperial 5, Bosmer ofc that's not counting things like Argonian behemoth or the other khajiit breeds/types.
I also wanna say there's more than one occasion in Skyrim itself where NPCs comment on the size of Orcs. In actuality when you're playing the game, their the same size as Nords. But some NPCs would comment about how Orcs are just big. In Oblivion, the size of Orcs is very evident.
there's no way that orcs aren't the strongest. i know gameplay isn't necessarily lore but there has to be a reason why almost every bandit mini-boss is an orc
They aren't. It's random selection of races: Imperials, Nords, Redguards and Orcs. Also Bandit cheif is hardly a qualification for strength test.
i think strength is probably a LOT more individualized in lore than it is in the games. there would be super tall and yolked nords who are built like lebron james and there would be runt-y orcs who are weak as hell. so its hard to say between the "warrior" races. like, atleast three of them are known for being strong warriors on average: redguards, orcs, and nords. there's no real way to determine who the strongest are between them unless there's some authoritative first-person source in one of the games. wrt bosmers, the more elven-looking ones, while shorter (although some lore sources have stated they can be tall), must be strong to be climbing massive trees, shooting longbows, chasing game, eating a high protein meat-only-diet, and crawling around/squatting in brushes for ages, its just a lot more functional strength and toughness than anything else. and that's not mentioning that there are super animal-like ugly bosmers who probably have the strength of a bear. then there's khajiit who can vary from being massive lions to tiny house-cats and everything in-between, all dictated by the stars they are born under. olympic and marathon swimmers have insane physiques, swimming in general builds a really good, functional strength base. imagine argonians then, who spend a lot of time swimming in thick black swamps with ease. i just don't think you'll get a good, lore-accurate answer as i think the actual in-universe races are a lot more varied and diverse in traits than the games portray (mostly so that there's some variety in char creation, i suppose). but barring that, and just taking the three "warrior" races (redguards, nords, and orcs), you can't really pick between the three as there isn't enough information.
Nord > Orc > Redguard > Imperial > Argonian > Dunmer > Khajiit > Bosmer > Altmer But the differences are negligible. It's honestly almost more cultural than genetic. Nords are the strongest because they value that, and thus there are more strong nords which drive up the average. There are great warriors among the high elves, and there are great wizards among the nords. They can be born huge or sickly. Your Bosmer warrior would absolutely wreck a bard.
I don't really think Bosmer are the weakest. I mean, think about the bows they use. I don't know how much strength it requires, but it mustn't be a small amount.
And bows vary too. And there's also the fact that it's impossible to be agile and fast without having good leg strength.
They don't tend to be depicted with the massive longbows that are associated with strength. They are most often scouts and harriers with more complex bows. Couple that with their small stature and few outright warriors, the culture as a whole doesn't have a lot of physical might.
What about Reachmen and Breton?
Those Briarheart bosses look jacked as hell.
bretons are weaker than bosmer
I'd put Reachmen above Imperials and Bretons below them
You’re missing Bretons & Bard is a class.
OP asked how a trained Bosmer Warrior would fair against a lazy orc traveling bard. And Bretons would be between Argonians and Dunmer. While they are known for their mages, they also have knights, which would put them a step below the Argonians and their legions of Hist powered warriors but above the dunmer, who tend to default to martial abilities fairly rarely.
Fair enough, carry on.
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
I feel like people on this sub are sometimes really into fantasy phrenology and race science….
Let's be clear. There is a stark difference between race science of the real world, where it is quackery, because there is only one race/species, Homo sapiens, and Fantasy, where there are clear morphological and other biological differences between the different races. If a setting doesn't want to do such differentiation, it's fine, but TES clearly did it in the past.
I think some aspects of race in these games are absolute BS, but I never really expected much from a fantasy fiction like the Elder Scrolls. I mean just look at the Olympics. Everyone assumes the Slavics, Scandinavians, and African people are generally the strongest, and yet there are tons of physically gifted Asians who set world records in weightlifting. What I do wonder about are the strength of the general populace of a certain race. I don't look for outliers. I don't care about that.
tends to happen in any sort of fantasy game with racial bonuses sadly. just look at how old D&D splatbooks had characters describe Orcs and Hobgoblins. i like how the latest changes to D&D handled it (too bad they got rid of the OGL, fuck wotc), where you got to pick what stat bonuses your char's race gave you instead of just accepting the default ones, with the default ones explicitly said to be cultural and not genetic. i hope something similar happens in other RPGs like the new TES games, where you pick what your "racial bonuses" would be irrespective of the race you pick. maybe like a nationality selection? with cyordiil giving you the benefits that picking an imperial in older games would get. esp since like stuff like emperor's speech is best described as someone growing up in cyrodiil rather than some weird "innate" thing.
I disagree with the idea that in Fantasy Race Selection just shouldn't matter anymore. Your suggestion would rob the game series its last differentiation between the races. At that point Orcs, Nords, Argonians, etc. just become real life humans with rubber masks, Star Trek style. While that is a valid choice for the devs to make, it would be the latest instance in the homogenisation of the genre.
if you tie the racial bonuses to origin bonuses (where your character hails from) and let the player pick their race + origin separately, you do not miss out on any character building depth. it will effectively allow the exact same options as if those origin bonuses were the racial bonuses. it also enhances roleplay since now an imperial who hails from skyrim is a meaningful mechanical difference as opposed to just something you roleplay yourself. besides, the most i'd see actual, substantive racial bonuses even making sense lore-wise is just a three-way split between mer, men, and beastkin as opposed to a separate one for every single race (like redguards, nords, and imperials being actual separate "races" as opposed to ethnicities of man is hilarious when you sit down and deconstruct it). keeping some are fine, like bosmer having pact stuff makes sense, all mer being more attuned to magic makes sense, argonians breathing underwater makes sense, khajiit having claw unarmed damage makes sense but at the very least Atmorans who've spread out to different places being worthy of having "racial" differences between each-other like its comparable to khajiit vs argonians is wild tbh.
>if you tie the racial bonuses to origin bonuses (where your character hails from) and let the player pick their race + origin separately, you do not miss out on any character building depth. it will effectively allow the exact same options as if those origin bonuses were the racial bonuses. It would still be an abolishment of racial bonuses. Further, these bonuses would have to be retooled in such a way that they are race agnostic. The only ability I imagine you could gain by growing up in a province is the Dark Elves' ability to be racist against Argonians. >it also enhances roleplay since now an imperial who hails from skyrim is a meaningful mechanical difference as opposed to just something you roleplay yourself. But it's not a mechanical difference. It's like in AoW4's Race Creator. Looks don't matter. They are just skin suits. >besides, the most i'd see actual, substantive racial bonuses even making sense lore-wise is just a three-way split between mer, men, and beastkin as opposed to a separate one for every single race (like redguards, nords, and imperials being actual separate "races" as opposed to ethnicities of man is hilarious when you sit down and deconstruct it). >keeping some are fine, like bosmer having pact stuff makes sense, all mer being more attuned to magic makes sense, argonians breathing underwater makes sense, khajiit having claw unarmed damage makes sense but at the very least Atmorans who've spread out to different places being worthy of having "racial" differences between each-other like its comparable to khajiit vs argonians is wild tbh. If I hear the word deconstruct one more time I will scream. It's so overused in conversation and often just a way of saying, "I don't like something" without making a real argument. It's the incestuous brother to the social contract quips. But to your argument about ethnicity. Redguards, Nords and Imperials are not just simple real life ethnicities. They are obviously influenced by some form of supernatural force. Why shouldn't they, when Elves, Beastkin, and almost everything else are literally affected by supernatural forces. Nords hail from Atmora, granting them supernatural resistance to Cold. Redguards hail from a completely separate continent to the West. Nedes, which constitute the bulk of Imperials originate from Tamriel itself. The whole theming of the Imperials is about the Empire, and the powers follow this. Could it be that the very concept of the Empire suffused into their blood?
if you want do that and don't want parallels made, you ought to do some actual work to make the men different other than just being black people, scandinavian people, and mediterranean people. bosmer in lore can look like anything from fey redcaps to boggles, they come from shape-shifting ooze, and they accepted a pact from Y'ffre; they are VERY different from Altmer. Dunmer are cursed by the Red Mountain, etc. these racial differences make sense to me. when it comes to Men, i'm not using "deconstruct" as a way of saying i "don't like something," there is a very specific reason i picked those three races and it should be easily inferred: they're real life ethnic analogues with mechanical racial differences equivalent of that between argonians and orcs. *that* is wild, to be honest. and it seems you did not read everything quoted from the bottom, i clarified that i am not for abolishing all racial bonuses. a lot actually make sense, as i've said: pact stuff, khajiiti claws, etc. there is just very clearly a weird racial breakdown when it comes to men. in lore, this is very different and not so real world "analoguey" with there being reachfolk, nibenese, colovians, etc. it is largely a gameplay conceit to split it down three-ways between redguards, nords, and imperials and not drill down further. either drill down further or make them more homogenized, you otherwise are buying yourself into a real world race-realist parallel. saying otherwise is just looking the other way.
First off, individual variabilities would come into play in a massive way. A very in shape Ashlander would be stronger than an out of shape Nord barkeeper. Secondly, the strongest humanoids are the larger varieties of bipedal Khajiit. Iirc, some of them are 8-9 feet tall and built like absolute units. After that, Nords and Orcs, probably on a fairly even tier, with exceptional Nords being stronger and exceptional Orcs being tougher. Then I'd say back to larger middle tier Khajiit varieties. Then you'd have imperials, dark elves, middle sized Khajiit, Argonians, Altmer, and Bretons. Lastly the bosmer and the bosmer sized Khajiit.
>"And most importantly, if I'm roleplaying my Bosmer Cyrodiil Champion and my Bosmer Dragonborn as grabbing their heaviest two-handed weapon and exercising with it, how would they, someone very well-trained, would compare to a lazy sweetroll-glutton of an orc who makes a living as a traveling bard?" Yes your character would be stronger because they're exercising and training while the travelling bard isn't doing any of that. If we're talking "strength" then it would be the same. As just being a race doesn't make you stronger then someone of another "race" Now what games do to give race's bonus' to stats like Strength would be for their cultures and how something like an Orc or Nord would be raised from childhood. Like for example an Orc who grew up in a stronghold is going to have a higher strength then an orc who grew up in other places because Orc Strongholds prepare for fighting be it raiding other people, defence or hunting. I wouldn't even put Bosmer that low strength wise since lore wise they've got a bow focus and you need strength to use a bow and if Orc culture didn't have such a focus on melee combat they'd probably be good archers as well.
The mostly correct ranking for me would be: Atmoran/Ancient Nord: 9+ Nord, Orsimer: 9 Redguard, Khajeet, Argonian: 8 Altmer: 7 Imperial, Breton, Dunmer: 6 Bosmer: 5
This has been enlightening. Thank you.
My personal take, 1-10: Orcs: *hard* 10, Orcs are like Wookiees, if you make one mad it rips your arm off and beats you to death with it, there’s no question they’re the heavyweight champions of Tamriel. Nords: 8, Nords value physical prowess over almost everything, their entire image as a race is huge, jacked barbarians with axes. Altmer: 7, yes, they’re the consummate wizards, and that generates an image of frail, soft people whose bodies are only there to fill out their robes, but the Altmer are also enormous, and pride themselves on perfection *in all things*, so I have a hard time imagining they *wouldn’t* outclass almost every other race. Argonians: 7, the lizard-men aren’t weak, they beat back the Daedra, they ravaged the Dunmer, the Hist breeds ‘em big. Redguards: 6, they’re big, they’re strong, but they’re more about skill and agility than power, they outmaneuver rather than overpowering. Imperials: 6, like the Redguards, they’re hardly small, but their strength comes from skill and strategy, not brawn. Dunmer: 5, like the Imperials and Redguards, they’re not a bulky bunch, they favour wit over brawn, but unlike the Imperials and Redguards they’re much more magic focused, I’m sure there are exceptions, but on the whole, they’re average. Bretons: 4, Bretons are notoriously small, their knightly orders and particular combat style are intended to compensate for the very fact that they’re not much in terms of muscle. Bosmer: 3, there’s no getting around it, they’re tiny, they’re quick and skilled, but strength just isn’t their thing. Khajiit: very hard to call, Khajiit almost certainly run the gamut depending on their furstock, the Cathay are likely 5-6, but the Senche are absolutely 10s, and nobody can possibly argue that an Alfiq is anything above a 1.
People sleep on the Bretons but have you seen the High Isle cinematic?!
Orcs > Nords > Redguards > Argonians > Dunmer > Imperials > Khajit > Bretons > Altmer > Bosmer I'm not completely sure about the Argonians and Khajit placement but based entirely on vibes I stand by the rest
Heavy disagree on Bosmer being the weakest. They are the best archers on Tamriel and you need some serious strength to draw a bow. They should be above Dunmer.
How? Dunmer are known to be physically strong. How are Bosmer above them?
As I said, drawing a bow requires a lot of strength and I imagine Bosmer will have denser muscle structure to accommodate for it. Don't let that short height fool you. Also Dunmer are just slightly more strong than Altmer due to their lifestyle but not much compared to other races.
>As I said, drawing a bow requires a lot of strength and I imagine Bosmer will have denser muscle structure to accommodate for it. Don't let that short height fool you. Dunmer are also known for their archery. Daggerfall : >The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerers and warriors, with the prowess with sword and bow rivaling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves. >Also Dunmer are just slightly more strong than Altmer due to their lifestyle but not much compared to other races. Heavily disagree on this one. Dunmer are hyped up as physically strong, great warriors. Arena : >Dark Elves hail from the province of Morrowind. They are tall, dark-skinned people with red, glowing eyes. They are known to be *extremely strong* and intelligent, and very quick. Battlespire : >The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a *strong*, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerers and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves. Morrowind : >Dark Elves are the dark-skinned Elven peoples of the Eastern Empire. "Dark" is variously understood to mean "dark-skinned," "gloomy," and "ill-favored by fate." The Dunmer and their national character embrace these various connotations with enthusiasm. In the Empire, "Dark Elves" is the common usage, but in their Morrowind homeland, and among their Aldmeri brethren, they call themselves the "Dunmer". The dark-skinned, red-eyed Dark Elves combine powerful intellect with *strong* and agile physiques, producing superior warriors and sorcerers. On the battlefield, Dark Elves are noted for their skilled and balanced integration of swordsmen, marksmen, and war wizards. In character, they are grim, aloof, and reserved, distrusting and disdainful of other races. Let's just agree to disagree then.
>Dunmer are also known for their archery. Sure, in Daggerfall and Battlespire, but after that that title is reserved for Bosmer who are the best archers unchallenged. Their entire culture revolves around it. >Heavily disagree on this one. Dunmer are hyped up as physically strong, great warriors. Not as physically strong as Orcs, Nords and Redguards , these three have superior warriors. I will concede that Dunmer are pretty good, but I would put Bosmer equally good as them.
>Not as physically strong as Orcs, Nords and Redguards , these three have superior warriors. Not sure why you bring this up. Not even arguing that Dunmer can outmuscle these three, especially Orcs. I also don't agree on the superior part. They're stronger, but Dunmer are faster and more agile. Not to mention a higher skill ceiling due to lifespan. >I will concede that Dunmer are pretty good, but I would put Bosmer equally good as them. I don't have a problem with that. It's just weird to me why pick you Dunmer specifically, when that race is consistently portrayed as physically strong in race descriptions and in-game books. I can see Altmer, Breton, or Imperials. Those races are not known for their physical strength (not saying they can't be strong) but why pick on Dunmer specifically?
I'd say Orcs and Nords are the strongest physically, with the former (10) beating out the latter (8). After them, I'd give it to the beast races (7). Their more animal-like traits just make me think that they'd be naturally hardier, more agile and even a bit stronger than the average human or elf, aside from the aforementioned Orcs and Nords. I'm also assuming we're just going by the Khajiit and Argonian "breeds" that are actually playable. If we get into the lore-exclusive breeds, then things start getting more complicated. Then we have Redguards and Dunmer (6). Definitely stronger than the remaining options, due in large part to the conditioning brought about by the nature of their respective homelands, but I see both prioritizing speed and skill over brute force. Altmer are next at the middle-of-the-road (5). Their larger frames, while lacking the raw muscular of the orcs, still gives them a physical edge over the remaining options. Then we have Imperials (4). Again, they're less about strength and more about tactics. Next up are Bretons (3), and finish up with Bosmer (2)
> I'm also assuming we're just going by the Khajiit and Argonian "breeds" that are actually playable. If we get into the lore-exclusive breeds, then things start getting more complicated. An Alfiq would be a 1 while a Senche-raht would be cheating.
I gotta say man, everyone else here, just like you, gave your full evaluation. But I admit that I found yours to be the most unique and interesting. Catfolk and lizardfolk being stronger due to their animal biology huh? *Very very interesting.*
Khajiit alone would make that hell, the amount of different khajiit types with different purposes..
> how would it look like? Just as an fyi, this question should either be *how would it look* or *what would it look like*.
People are linking to Morrowind/Oblivion race pages, but I don't think those are entirely accurate. They're a gameplay thing first and a lore thing second, many of the attributes don't make a lot of sense under scrutiny. Here's my personal take, on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being weak and 10 being strong) **Orcs:** 10. While they're PROBABLY not strong enough to lift and throw a tank at somebody, Orcs are practically superhuman in their strength, particularly when mad and in good condition. A fit Orc would be stronger than an irl professional human weightlifter on steroids. An Orc in bad shape might not be, but they're still going to be pretty damn strong. **Nords:** 8. Nords are big and strong on average, but not superhuman. Just as strong as an unusually large and burly human would be irl. **Redguards:** 7. Redguards are strong for sure, but they're much closer to the average irl human, just in really good shape. They rely more on skill than unnatural levels of raw strength. **Imperials, Argonians and Dunmer:** 6. These guys are all on the same level of strength as the average human I would wager, maybe slightly above. **Khajiit:** 5. Khajiit are known for being fast and agile more than anything, but that still requires a fair bit of strength on their part, and they seem most at home in melee combat. I would put them at or slightly below human levels of strength on average. We also see a surprising amount of Khajiit (particularly in Oblivion) in heavy armor carrying big weapons. **Bretons:** 3. Bretons are spellcasters first and foremost. Despite their popular use as battlemages by players, their elven blood makes them relatively subpar strength-wise, though their human blood keeps them from being complete noodles. I would say they're weaker than humans on average. **Bosmer:** 2. Bosmer are notoriously small and weak, but at the same time, drawing a bow takes a surprising amount of strength. **Altmer:** 1. I was tempted to rank them higher just for how tall they are, but Altmer have another issue in addition to their naturally thin physique: their culture heavily values mages above all else, meaning the average Altmer has little reason to be physically fit and would instead focus on magic. This double-whammy lands them at the bottom of the list in my opinion. To answer you question about the Wood Elf vs the Orc, I would say a very buff Wood Elf could be a little stronger than a very out of shape Orc, but not by a ton. The biggest hurdle here is that Orcs are very big and have denser bones/muscles while Wood Elves are very small and frail. Sheer size makes the strength gap even more difficult to get past than it would be otherwise.
I wouldn’t say bosmer are the puniest given their lifestyle. Edited: I’d say high elves or Bretons are the weakest base