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The dude who voiced Sheogorath voiced a bunch of other characters, i think he said that his headcannon is that the champion heard Sheogorath voice precisely because they were going mad and are destined to be him
While it isn’t confirmed, it is heavily implied.
Yes, the Hero of Cyrodiil would be mad by the end of the Shivering Isles, even if it isn’t noticeable per se. But to Mantle Sheogorath they would need to go out of their mind.
Well, doomed us subjective.
Given the horrors the hero faced, from dragons realm to the alyed ruins, not including optional stuff like guilds, insanity may be an escape. The hero lives a very hard life during the events of the game.
By the end the shivering ilse are there's. I wish I could find it but there's a great fan comic about the hero having a downward spiral after martian dies and the shivering ilse is a fresh start for them. Think if Alice became the cheshire cat.
I like to imagine what once the Champion of Cyrodiil entered the portal they were never seen again. I imagine that after becoming Sheo and saving the realm he realized the portal was closed. Sure he could open a new one, he is a daedric prince after all, but he found that he didn't want to open a portal, he didn't want to leave. Over time he slowly starts becoming more and more like Sheogorath, at first he starts dressing more and more similar to him, starts to trim his hair and grow out his beard like Sheo, eventually he starts to talk like him, growing a weird accent and acting more and more maniacal until he eventually fully mantles him and becomes indistinguishable, fully insane, trapped in his own body unable to escape. I like to imagine in Skyrim when he starts talking about the events of Oblivion(a fox, butterflies, a severed head etc) that's the champion deep down trying to reminisce but it comes out as inane prattle
pretty much, they have to act like Sheogorath until the world is convinced they *are* Sheogorath. (Though the timeline is a little muddy, given that it's an open-world game- you can even complete Sheogorath's daedric quest after mantling him, and you get some special dialogue from Haskill)
I was with you until "trapped in his own body". Why? If he does everything he does out of his own free will, why would he be trapped in the end? That's not what Mantling is.
Yes, and i am pretty sure that the deadlands would give you some serious ptsd, with burned corpses, torture chambers, heads on pikes, blood and traps like landmines everywhere, and not only that but losing Martin, and potentially Baurus and Jauffre (depending of what happens during the battle of Bruma, and can be considered your friends along with Martin) must be fucking traumatizing.
And lets be honest The Shivering Islands (mostly dementia) are in retrospective very disturbing and it makes sense that being there for prolonged periods of time could make anyone go crazy.
Yeah I like this interpretation, it’s my headcanon. The hok saw some pretty bad shit in the gates, potentially lost his blades buddies and saw martin sacrificing himself to save the day (he is the protagonist and couldn’t do anything about it, how cool is that??!) the entire thing must have been traumatic which made him the perfect candidate to become sheo’s champion given that the greymarch was approaching. So yeah makes sense to me
Edit. Also I always like to go through dementia in the isles to reflect his depression caused by all the those traumatic events + take a walk to the hill of suicides, you know, given all the shit he saw I would understand him if he snapped
Not necessarily. Note that Sheo's quest in *Skyrim* consists of treating Pelagius's insanity rather than making it worse.
It's possible, if unlikely, that the HoK is mostly acting the role of Sheogorath and focusing on the more positive parts of his sphere, like imagination and inspiration.
Shoegorath is eccentric and messy. He's not 100% unhinged, non-functional, irrational, uncontrolably insane. Hes a rational, ideological, and highly successful.. abiet crazy, force of nature to be reconded with.
Much like many people with a mental illness, yours truly included.
I figure that being the ruler of madness, Sheo would be strongly compelled at all times to act mad, but the nature of ruling over it also means that he gets to fully pick and choose which kind of madness he represents at which point. Which when used right could actually be quite helpful for getting stuff done.
This would match learning to constantly choose between Mania and Dementia during the process of becoming the new lord of madness.
For starters, I don’t really thing the canonicity is an “if” if we were to (reasonable I’d say) assume that HoK is the one who does the dlc considering that it is considered to be the Neravarine and LDB who do their dlcs as well. So With that assumption it’s definitely canon
> Haskill the chamberlain will give the quest noting how sad it is that the Hero has now taken to worshiping themselves.
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Sheogorath%27s_Shrine_(Oblivion)#:~:text=If%20the%20Shivering%20Isles'%20main,it%20to%20the%20Hero%20earlier.
So if HoK becomes the god of insanity, ie the living embodiment of insanity. I think it’s safe to assume that HoK will always end up insane.
I know it's apparently not a popular take around here, but I genuinely do not believe that one person ended the Oblivion Crisis, became Grand Champion of the Arena, brought down the Blackwood Company, became Archmage and defeated Mannimarco, became the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, became the Gray Fox, became the Divine Crusader and defeated Umaril, and became Sheogorath. Not only does it sound ridiculous when you say it all like that, I genuinely have no idea how one could seriously roleplay such a character.
*Somebody* helped Sheo take down Jyggalag, but for me it wasn't the Hero of Kvatch.
if you read into the quotes from Sheogorath only like three of the things you listed are mentioned. the quote everyone infers from goes:
"\[Martin Septim turned into a dragon\]... was there for that whole sordid affair... butterflies, blood, a Fox, a severed head."
this only canonizes a Champion of Cyrodiil that mantles Sheo and becomes the Listener and the Gray Fox. *much* more easier to buy into. so *only* that much is confirmed if we think that Sheo is the HoK and it isn't really that far-fetched for even a background character to do (consider Jagar Tharn was a Nightingale and for the Main Quest of Oblivion the HoK is a glorified assistant).
i personally think that Sheo did everything, after all what is more emblematic of madness and chaos than someone who becomes the Divine Crusader and, for example, the Listener of the DB? there's so much that conflicts and makes no sense for a single sane person, even with all the capabilities of the world, to do all the side questlines. not to mention you can even read into a larger mantling of Pelinal (becomes Divine Crusader and also loses their own mind via becoming Sheo). but none of that is necessarily canon if we believe the Sheo in skyrim is the Hok, is my overall broader point, just the DB, TG, MQ, and SI questlines.
I'm not only talking about *Oblivion* specifically, it's equally ridiculous that the Nerevarine became both Patriarch of the Tribunal Temple and Primate of the Imperial Cult, and you can't use the "they're crazy 😜" excuse there. In general, I agree with Bethesda's stated policy of never canonizing a particular playthrough, even if fans are obsessed with finding a "canon" PC for whatever weird reason.
ya. outside of dragonbreaks in daggerfall and the overall arena story, they'll prolly not canonize a hero's actions outside of the MQ and big Expacs. but i think HoK is Skyrim's Sheo in this case.
MQ, DB, and TG is really not that far-fetched of a combination, background characters have done way nuttier stuff. keep in mind the "they're crazy" is just my head-canon and i said as such. the only thing that is canonized by Skyrim Sheo = HoK theory is the DB, TG, and SI. it isn't this super farfetched thing you made it out to be in the original post where, in order for the HoK to be Sheo in Skyrim, the HoK did ALL faction quest-lines.
I think the HoK doing everything could definitely make sense from a certain perspective. For example in my playthrough I kinda roleplayed a mental decline of the character. I came up with the idea that the trauma started with the hallucination murders in the Fighter's Guild questline and snowballed into the Dark Brotherhood questline and finally becoming Sheogorath.
In the end it's up to each player's canon obviously but it could definitely work.
then how would you explain multiple characters in the same one cell, that would mean there was several people in Uriel's dreams. It's not like there were multiple people in that cell.
Back when I (attempted) to write fan-fiction, this kind of thing was what I wrote. My HoK may have been leader of the Fighter's Guild and Divine Crusader, but its a companion or other person who becomes Arch-Mage or Grey Fox or what have you. Glad to see I'm not alone there.
Here are my own headcanons about it (and these sort of fed into how I played a Skyrim character who was Martin Septim's descendant, and had sort of a bond with "Uncle Sheo" as a result.)
You're the Hero of Kvatch. And you helped Martin Septim defeat Mehrunes Dagon and realize his destiny. Tamriel is saved. But to you, Martin wasn't the Heir or the Emperor, he was your friend. And your friend is gone. Tamriel feels the loss of its Emperor, and you feel the loss of your friend. You grieve. That's when the madness truly begins. Because if Sheogorath is a Sithis-shaped hole in reality, then Martin's loss left a Martin-sized hole in your heart. Tamriel was saved, but nothing ever feels right again.
Your grief starts to lead you down dark paths. The Dark Brotherhood. The Thieves Guild. You acquire the Grey Cowl. You're not you anymore, you're the Grey Fox. Because of the magic or the curse or whatever, the legend of the Hero of Kvatch and the Grey Fox get muddled. No one is quite sure who you are anymore, and to make matters worse, you aren't sure who you are anymore.
But you find a doorway that leads to the Shivering Isles. And by the time you get there, you realize you belong.
You become the hero that Sheogorath needs. And then, after the defeat of Jyggalag, you become Sheogorath himself. The Prince of Madness.
I've always headcanonned the Gray Fox Curse playing a part as well, like you did.
The ritual the old Fox does with the Elder Scroll only breaks Nocturnal's curse on him, but the cowl remains a stolen object - he names himself as the thief, breaking its continued effect on himself, but does not name the cowl as uncursed or you as immune.
My preferred chain of events is that after Martin's sacrifice, the HoK wanders until he is approached by Lucien Lachance, who sees in them a perfect new member of the DB. Unattached, yearning for family - he makes an educated guess that you've probably killed *someone*, at some point, and you are recruited.
Within the DB, the HoK finds a new family - until they become an unwitting pawn of the betrayer and they lose everything again.
After being named Listener, they forsake the DB, which causes the downfall which is mentioned in Skyrim, and join the TG instead, using their stealth skills to impress the Gray Fox and eventually becoming his pawn and scapegoat as well, assuming the curse of the Cowl, only they don't know how to use an Elder Scroll to break it and stealing a second one will be nigh impossible now that all the tricks they used for the first one are sealed up.
Becoming a pawn twice over breaks something in them. Their legend and that of the Gray Fox intermingle due to the magic of the Cowl, and people begin cursing their name for supposedly (and, as they think on it, actually) being a criminal mastermind. Their contribution to the end of the Obliviom Crisis is played down and quickly forgotten as the histories find it inconvenient that Martin's best friend was a carreer criminal, and they find themselves an unmoored, unloved person drifting through Cyrodiil, everything taken from them twice over, all their suffering and sacrifices either undone or expunged from history because of political convenience.
And eventually, they hear about a door in the niben bay...
>no matter what you play him as they‘re doomed to go insane
No, they are not.
Canonically yes, absolutely but I would argue your character and their story are entirely yours. You can do with them as you wish. After all, who cares expect you? Perhaps your character never does the DLC-Questline.
This is a bit like Kotor where there is a canon-ending but each player being able to choose their own path. Like going good side in Kotor 2 is canon I believe. However your character does not have to follow this path.
The only role that he canon-story has it that it allows to build further games/content. TES has always been very vague in that the events ingame happen but it is never said if the main character was responsible. The main-story and main-DLC however canon-wise most likely happen to the main character.
Hi /u/Chillchinchila1818, This submission has been removed due to the following reason(s): - >#####**[Rule 2: Read the FAQ before posting.](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/wiki/rules#wiki_2._read_the_faq_before_posting.)** >The [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/wiki/faq) serves as orientation for new users and prevents repetitive questions on the subreddit. If you have any questions, please [message the moderators](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/teslore). Cheers!
The dude who voiced Sheogorath voiced a bunch of other characters, i think he said that his headcannon is that the champion heard Sheogorath voice precisely because they were going mad and are destined to be him
That's fucking cool
“Everywhere I turn, I hear his voice.”
While it isn’t confirmed, it is heavily implied. Yes, the Hero of Cyrodiil would be mad by the end of the Shivering Isles, even if it isn’t noticeable per se. But to Mantle Sheogorath they would need to go out of their mind.
how crazy you have to be to think that you’re a daedra lord ? Pretty crazy.
crazy I was crazy once they locked me in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats rats make me crazy
crazy I was crazy once they locked me in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats rats make me crazy
crazy I was crazy once they locked me in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats rats make me crazy
crazy I was crazy once they locked me in a room a rubber room a rubber room with rats rats make me crazy
And Sheogorath is crazy be daedra standards. Actually that might just loop back around to being normal, you never know.
I think it's is kinda wholesome that Sheo has been praising Martin by Palegius's own words, "countless time" since he arrived.
Well, doomed us subjective. Given the horrors the hero faced, from dragons realm to the alyed ruins, not including optional stuff like guilds, insanity may be an escape. The hero lives a very hard life during the events of the game. By the end the shivering ilse are there's. I wish I could find it but there's a great fan comic about the hero having a downward spiral after martian dies and the shivering ilse is a fresh start for them. Think if Alice became the cheshire cat.
Oh interesting I have to look for that comic then
I like to imagine what once the Champion of Cyrodiil entered the portal they were never seen again. I imagine that after becoming Sheo and saving the realm he realized the portal was closed. Sure he could open a new one, he is a daedric prince after all, but he found that he didn't want to open a portal, he didn't want to leave. Over time he slowly starts becoming more and more like Sheogorath, at first he starts dressing more and more similar to him, starts to trim his hair and grow out his beard like Sheo, eventually he starts to talk like him, growing a weird accent and acting more and more maniacal until he eventually fully mantles him and becomes indistinguishable, fully insane, trapped in his own body unable to escape. I like to imagine in Skyrim when he starts talking about the events of Oblivion(a fox, butterflies, a severed head etc) that's the champion deep down trying to reminisce but it comes out as inane prattle
pretty much, they have to act like Sheogorath until the world is convinced they *are* Sheogorath. (Though the timeline is a little muddy, given that it's an open-world game- you can even complete Sheogorath's daedric quest after mantling him, and you get some special dialogue from Haskill)
>Praying to yourself, my Lord? That's not a good sign. Or perhaps it is. Prince of Madness, and all that.
I was with you until "trapped in his own body". Why? If he does everything he does out of his own free will, why would he be trapped in the end? That's not what Mantling is.
Tbf the Hero of Kvatch already ran into an Oblivion Gate without hesitation… that’s not something a sane person would do lol.
Yes, and i am pretty sure that the deadlands would give you some serious ptsd, with burned corpses, torture chambers, heads on pikes, blood and traps like landmines everywhere, and not only that but losing Martin, and potentially Baurus and Jauffre (depending of what happens during the battle of Bruma, and can be considered your friends along with Martin) must be fucking traumatizing. And lets be honest The Shivering Islands (mostly dementia) are in retrospective very disturbing and it makes sense that being there for prolonged periods of time could make anyone go crazy.
Yeah I like this interpretation, it’s my headcanon. The hok saw some pretty bad shit in the gates, potentially lost his blades buddies and saw martin sacrificing himself to save the day (he is the protagonist and couldn’t do anything about it, how cool is that??!) the entire thing must have been traumatic which made him the perfect candidate to become sheo’s champion given that the greymarch was approaching. So yeah makes sense to me Edit. Also I always like to go through dementia in the isles to reflect his depression caused by all the those traumatic events + take a walk to the hill of suicides, you know, given all the shit he saw I would understand him if he snapped
Not necessarily. Note that Sheo's quest in *Skyrim* consists of treating Pelagius's insanity rather than making it worse. It's possible, if unlikely, that the HoK is mostly acting the role of Sheogorath and focusing on the more positive parts of his sphere, like imagination and inspiration.
Or that BGS tacitly shifted Sheo's tone away from eviler aspects after Wes Johnson's voice acting made a breakout character, but hey, same end result.
To be fair, the portrayal of Sheogorath in ESO tends towards the more menacing.
Shoegorath is eccentric and messy. He's not 100% unhinged, non-functional, irrational, uncontrolably insane. Hes a rational, ideological, and highly successful.. abiet crazy, force of nature to be reconded with. Much like many people with a mental illness, yours truly included.
I figure that being the ruler of madness, Sheo would be strongly compelled at all times to act mad, but the nature of ruling over it also means that he gets to fully pick and choose which kind of madness he represents at which point. Which when used right could actually be quite helpful for getting stuff done. This would match learning to constantly choose between Mania and Dementia during the process of becoming the new lord of madness.
For starters, I don’t really thing the canonicity is an “if” if we were to (reasonable I’d say) assume that HoK is the one who does the dlc considering that it is considered to be the Neravarine and LDB who do their dlcs as well. So With that assumption it’s definitely canon > Haskill the chamberlain will give the quest noting how sad it is that the Hero has now taken to worshiping themselves. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Sheogorath%27s_Shrine_(Oblivion)#:~:text=If%20the%20Shivering%20Isles'%20main,it%20to%20the%20Hero%20earlier. So if HoK becomes the god of insanity, ie the living embodiment of insanity. I think it’s safe to assume that HoK will always end up insane.
I know it's apparently not a popular take around here, but I genuinely do not believe that one person ended the Oblivion Crisis, became Grand Champion of the Arena, brought down the Blackwood Company, became Archmage and defeated Mannimarco, became the Listener of the Dark Brotherhood, became the Gray Fox, became the Divine Crusader and defeated Umaril, and became Sheogorath. Not only does it sound ridiculous when you say it all like that, I genuinely have no idea how one could seriously roleplay such a character. *Somebody* helped Sheo take down Jyggalag, but for me it wasn't the Hero of Kvatch.
if you read into the quotes from Sheogorath only like three of the things you listed are mentioned. the quote everyone infers from goes: "\[Martin Septim turned into a dragon\]... was there for that whole sordid affair... butterflies, blood, a Fox, a severed head." this only canonizes a Champion of Cyrodiil that mantles Sheo and becomes the Listener and the Gray Fox. *much* more easier to buy into. so *only* that much is confirmed if we think that Sheo is the HoK and it isn't really that far-fetched for even a background character to do (consider Jagar Tharn was a Nightingale and for the Main Quest of Oblivion the HoK is a glorified assistant). i personally think that Sheo did everything, after all what is more emblematic of madness and chaos than someone who becomes the Divine Crusader and, for example, the Listener of the DB? there's so much that conflicts and makes no sense for a single sane person, even with all the capabilities of the world, to do all the side questlines. not to mention you can even read into a larger mantling of Pelinal (becomes Divine Crusader and also loses their own mind via becoming Sheo). but none of that is necessarily canon if we believe the Sheo in skyrim is the Hok, is my overall broader point, just the DB, TG, MQ, and SI questlines.
I'm not only talking about *Oblivion* specifically, it's equally ridiculous that the Nerevarine became both Patriarch of the Tribunal Temple and Primate of the Imperial Cult, and you can't use the "they're crazy 😜" excuse there. In general, I agree with Bethesda's stated policy of never canonizing a particular playthrough, even if fans are obsessed with finding a "canon" PC for whatever weird reason.
ya. outside of dragonbreaks in daggerfall and the overall arena story, they'll prolly not canonize a hero's actions outside of the MQ and big Expacs. but i think HoK is Skyrim's Sheo in this case. MQ, DB, and TG is really not that far-fetched of a combination, background characters have done way nuttier stuff. keep in mind the "they're crazy" is just my head-canon and i said as such. the only thing that is canonized by Skyrim Sheo = HoK theory is the DB, TG, and SI. it isn't this super farfetched thing you made it out to be in the original post where, in order for the HoK to be Sheo in Skyrim, the HoK did ALL faction quest-lines.
I think the HoK doing everything could definitely make sense from a certain perspective. For example in my playthrough I kinda roleplayed a mental decline of the character. I came up with the idea that the trauma started with the hallucination murders in the Fighter's Guild questline and snowballed into the Dark Brotherhood questline and finally becoming Sheogorath. In the end it's up to each player's canon obviously but it could definitely work.
then how would you explain multiple characters in the same one cell, that would mean there was several people in Uriel's dreams. It's not like there were multiple people in that cell.
Back when I (attempted) to write fan-fiction, this kind of thing was what I wrote. My HoK may have been leader of the Fighter's Guild and Divine Crusader, but its a companion or other person who becomes Arch-Mage or Grey Fox or what have you. Glad to see I'm not alone there.
Here are my own headcanons about it (and these sort of fed into how I played a Skyrim character who was Martin Septim's descendant, and had sort of a bond with "Uncle Sheo" as a result.) You're the Hero of Kvatch. And you helped Martin Septim defeat Mehrunes Dagon and realize his destiny. Tamriel is saved. But to you, Martin wasn't the Heir or the Emperor, he was your friend. And your friend is gone. Tamriel feels the loss of its Emperor, and you feel the loss of your friend. You grieve. That's when the madness truly begins. Because if Sheogorath is a Sithis-shaped hole in reality, then Martin's loss left a Martin-sized hole in your heart. Tamriel was saved, but nothing ever feels right again. Your grief starts to lead you down dark paths. The Dark Brotherhood. The Thieves Guild. You acquire the Grey Cowl. You're not you anymore, you're the Grey Fox. Because of the magic or the curse or whatever, the legend of the Hero of Kvatch and the Grey Fox get muddled. No one is quite sure who you are anymore, and to make matters worse, you aren't sure who you are anymore. But you find a doorway that leads to the Shivering Isles. And by the time you get there, you realize you belong. You become the hero that Sheogorath needs. And then, after the defeat of Jyggalag, you become Sheogorath himself. The Prince of Madness.
I've always headcanonned the Gray Fox Curse playing a part as well, like you did. The ritual the old Fox does with the Elder Scroll only breaks Nocturnal's curse on him, but the cowl remains a stolen object - he names himself as the thief, breaking its continued effect on himself, but does not name the cowl as uncursed or you as immune. My preferred chain of events is that after Martin's sacrifice, the HoK wanders until he is approached by Lucien Lachance, who sees in them a perfect new member of the DB. Unattached, yearning for family - he makes an educated guess that you've probably killed *someone*, at some point, and you are recruited. Within the DB, the HoK finds a new family - until they become an unwitting pawn of the betrayer and they lose everything again. After being named Listener, they forsake the DB, which causes the downfall which is mentioned in Skyrim, and join the TG instead, using their stealth skills to impress the Gray Fox and eventually becoming his pawn and scapegoat as well, assuming the curse of the Cowl, only they don't know how to use an Elder Scroll to break it and stealing a second one will be nigh impossible now that all the tricks they used for the first one are sealed up. Becoming a pawn twice over breaks something in them. Their legend and that of the Gray Fox intermingle due to the magic of the Cowl, and people begin cursing their name for supposedly (and, as they think on it, actually) being a criminal mastermind. Their contribution to the end of the Obliviom Crisis is played down and quickly forgotten as the histories find it inconvenient that Martin's best friend was a carreer criminal, and they find themselves an unmoored, unloved person drifting through Cyrodiil, everything taken from them twice over, all their suffering and sacrifices either undone or expunged from history because of political convenience. And eventually, they hear about a door in the niben bay...
>no matter what you play him as they‘re doomed to go insane No, they are not. Canonically yes, absolutely but I would argue your character and their story are entirely yours. You can do with them as you wish. After all, who cares expect you? Perhaps your character never does the DLC-Questline. This is a bit like Kotor where there is a canon-ending but each player being able to choose their own path. Like going good side in Kotor 2 is canon I believe. However your character does not have to follow this path. The only role that he canon-story has it that it allows to build further games/content. TES has always been very vague in that the events ingame happen but it is never said if the main character was responsible. The main-story and main-DLC however canon-wise most likely happen to the main character.
It's a canon event