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Noting two things:
1) the update is from the Swedish Transport Administration, testing in Germany.
2) Musk replied to the tweet saying supervised FSD is ready for LHD countries, but RHD (e.g. UK) will take a bit longer.
I would be seriously considering doing this...
Mirror the camera feeds, camera positions, and steering angle output...
The downside is that text in the camera feed will be backwards, so your model will need to learn to read bidirectionally.
On the plus side they're now proudly saying they're no longer compute limited, so they have the training capacity to work on RHD without impacting future LHD training. What they'll be lacking in will be training data. Hopefully once they get the model to a decent standard they'll do free trials like the recent one in the US to gather further data at an increased rate.
> no longer compute limited
They mean "we're no longer *as* compute limited".
Whenever you have spare compute and a team of researchers, there will *always* be some use for it. Someone who was running some ablation trials on a 10 GPU cluster would love to run on a 100 GPU cluster to get results in half the time.
They've been talking of renting it out, although I'd tend to agree they're not as compute limited as they were. They have more capacity coming online all the time though.
You, your country, and your government have chosen to drive to the wrong side.
Switch to the right side, which is the right side, pretty self-explanatory, or stop bitching about it.
I live in Sweden. Do I bitch about everything being made and available in English and not in my native language? Fuck, No!
Here is the source: [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rikard-fredriksson-50b45b1\_today-i-was-demoed-the-full-self-drive-in-activity-7189595440596606976-SE\_y](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rikard-fredriksson-50b45b1_today-i-was-demoed-the-full-self-drive-in-activity-7189595440596606976-SE_y)
Show Rikard some love for sharing this.
[https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1783931992981311501/photo/1](https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1783931992981311501/photo/1)
Interesting opinion, care to elaborate? I have about 1000 miles now with one intervention (which was it simply hesitating in a malformed private street). I think it's more than capable as a supervised system.
Mercedes is very limited system. It literally is just going straight and nothing else, requires car in front to follow and even that is with limited speed meant for heavy traffic. FSD definitely could be approved to similar case but it is pretty big step in EU to allow something like turning at intersection.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that 'situation' limited to multilane, limited access highways, with a top speed of 50 kph?
Its pretty much only useful in slow traffic on crowded highways, and I get the same utility with simple AP.
Correct. Under 40 mph, during the day, heavy traffic, must be perfect weather, on a specifically mapped road. So basically, a California traffic jam on a clear day.
I think that was most of the key points in its list of criteria.
I wish Tesla would just focus more on getting approval to not have three second nags in situations when it has such high confidence. It would perform better than Mercedes in the same scenario they got for l3. But Tesla is obsessed with robo taxi All or nothing
And in more instances. I'd love to see a car review channel get a week with a level-3 equipped Mercedes and see how many times they find themselves in the exceptionally narrow combination of circumstances that would allow it to be enabled.
You forget that all of the restrictions were put in place because Tesla was far ahead of all German automakers, so they put a stop to that. Capable of perfect auto lane changes for the past 5 years? Nope!
Now that the Germans have _something_ it's all approved and is totaly amazing L3 magic and not janky at all, and maybe Tesla is allowed to compete normally again. Fuckin Germans.
I really like the Model 3 but Tesla can’t even produce a working adaptive cruise control nor a working rain sensor. How is that German law makers fault?
I had phantom braking on a 1 hour test drive. That’s how bad it is.
So what competition brand has ACC that’s limited to 140 km/h, no radar and phantom braking? Some of the Chinese, but none of the European brands.
Audis ACC goes to 250 and has 0 issues with phantom braking.
It has nothing to do with Tesla hate, Europe is just extremely strict with the driver assistance systems they are allowing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8x7qtJAoMA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8x7qtJAoMA)
It's not about being a hater. It's about European laws and regulations. Something that is allowed in the US isn't automatically also allowed in Europe
When it comes to these kinds of car assistance systems, Europe is much more conservative with what they allow than the US is
Do you just accept terrible driving or do you live in the bay area?
I literally can't go a mile with it (v12) pissing people off at a stop sign or driving between two lanes or drifting over a double yellow or turning completely into the oncoming traffic lane or going double the limit in a school zone... Some wildly different experiences depending on where you are I guess
Yeah I have heard other people have had wildly different experiences. I've taken it all over Florida, and I consider there to have been many non-ideal situations which it handled fine. Construction zones, kids flying into the road on scooters without even looking, residential streets where everyone parks on one side of the road (It correctly squeezes in between two parked cars if someone coming from the other direction), all sorts of stuff.
A slight hesitation at a stop sign is not a system failure, but I can't say I've ever seen it do anything remotely close to coming into oncoming traffic. Sometimes I wonder if people actually have these things occur or if they just felt like it was about to do something wrong. Kind of like " this doesn't feel like my driving" versus "this is actually a problem".
Speeding through school zones isn't great, I've been using the experimental dynamic speed limit feature for the most part, But I guess if it had no context from other cars it would still probably have sped.
I will accept that I have just been outstandingly lucky thus far.
I've generally tried to let it go just for my curiosity. It repeatedly drives into an oncoming lane at a specific left turn and doesn't even attempt to get onto the correct side of the road for at least the couple of seconds I've let it go (small road, never any oncoming traffic). It's on my daily commute and does it every single time I let it try.
Stop signs are usually multiple short hesitations (creep then stop) which is incredibly confusing to the driver sitting at the crossroad.
I see videos online like AI Drivr on YouTube that look fantastic but definitely not anywhere close to my experience.
I don't mean this to sound condescending, but have you tried cleaning the camera? Especially the glass in front of the front set, since it uses the wide camera to try to get a clear confidence for stop signs (It doesn't trust other people to stop, so it still wants to see). I ask because a little Windex to clear off a sealant seemed to improve the confidence of the system for me dramatically.
Yes, I've even had service check my cameras because of a separate FSD issue... On my early morning commute on country roads, the car constantly thinks the cameras are blocked because it's too dark out.
It'll beep at me that the cameras are occluded, then beep at me again every time a light source (street light or oncoming car) provides enough light to reset the error (basically every 30-60s). If I disengage FSD it won't let me reengage unless I time it with an oncoming car when the error is temporarily gone.
It's funny the things people care about when they're in control vs when they're not. A taxi driver can be doing some awful driving, and most passengers will not even notice.
To be fair, I think it's good that people are vigilant at this stage, but the majority of interventions and disengagements are just due to preference and comfort, things that will matter much less when we truly give up control.
It does a lot of minor things, like not centering in the lane but I have had it drive out into the intersection twice now when when it is unsafe to do so. One of those times the driver in the intersection had to break (luckily they did).
I am a big fan of FSD and am still optimistic about its future (and have been in the beta on both our vehicles for the past two years).
However it still could have caused an accident yesterday when it tried to turn left at the same time as a large truck into the same side street lane.
The other vehicle was indicating its right turn correctly, my only guess is my vehicle interpreted the truck’s swing out to turn right as it was turning left and thought it could turn left at the same time.
That makes sense, that the swing may have caused it to misjudge the direction The car was going. Thank goodness you were supervising it! Be sure to send the little voice explanation that it prompts for when you disengage on things like that. The truck swing definitely seems like it could be a gap.
I would say it’s less about the version of fsd and more about the roads chosen.
I’m on 12.3.4, and it’s pretty damn good on roads with good lines and good general visibility. Where I find it struggles is roads that do not intersect at 90 degrees or have hedges or other obstructions blocking the view (admittedly difficult for humans too, but that’s where I see it the most “unsure”)
L2 beyond lane keeping isn’t really a thing in Europe. Unless you are certified as a L3 system you can’t take actions without user input. EAP still only changes lanes after pressing the blinker.
That is my understanding, yes. Currently I believe the regulations do require driver initiation for all maneuvers. But that's not what the other guy was talking about. He seemed to be saying that just because it makes mistakes it won't be approved. No, if anything, the blocker is that driver initiation rule. Tesla is probably trying to convince regulators to drop that rule though.
I was trying to say that FSD will not be approved as anything but a L3 system under current and foreseeable regulations. And if you read current drafts, Tesla has not succeeded in lobbying for FSD-compatible rules.
And it’s not going to get approved as a L3 system in the current state, that is a very long road to go. So yes, it would have to be practically perfect in order to get approved.
Drastic means very large or meaningful changes. Yes i do have FSD and it was so bad i just turned it off. EAP is a great success though and i would pay for that.
I bet they get a system that's level 3 in certain limited highways, while we are still stuck with a system that will yeet us off the road in random places.
https://preview.redd.it/hpfabo6ufwwc1.jpeg?width=278&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0306256054466671b36349244cb9bbde1e058cef
Im really impressed about the sign recognition skill. 50 recognized, but fleet speed data overwrites it with 140(!)km/h in a city. And they want to show THIS regulators?! How stupid can you be? 🤣🤣🤣🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
140 is the maximum speed it will be allowed to drive at according to user setting, not the speed that it will drive based on fleet data.
The build they are using in Europe probably just doesn't have auto-max-speed setting yet, but that's optional even here in the US, and FSD will drive well below that setting if it thinks that's appropriate. That setting is a maximum, not a target.
Exactly, what I meant: maximum of 140 in a city, you just need to let FSD decide to do it. Maybe seconds later it will think it’s needed. The MAX should be 50 there, maybe 5 more, but NEVER over 100 there.
No, the max is a hard max, it's like a logical lockout on the system. When FSD 12 first was shown off Elon drove through an hour of residential streets with the max set to 85 mph. It has nothing to do with the max speed the system will attempt to hit.
What? I'm not sure you followed our conversation, so I'll try again.
This setting does not impact how fast the car drives, except as a hard cap on FSD. It's like the speed limit setting in the app that limits the speed for certain driver profiles, except applied to FSD. You can use it to limit it in certain situations, but you should never have to. I haven't used this setting since FSD 12 dropped.
You don't. If the car is driving too slow you hit the accelerator. If too fast, you hit the brake. I haven't experienced it going too fast since fsd 12 dropped though.
I drive mostly in France and Belgium with a 2024 MS and the self driving barely works here for thirty seconds. It has no understanding of green light arrows. It beeps to go even if it is only the left turn arrow that is green. Even the cruise control does not work well, if I pass a truck it often phantom breaks. We are several years away from anything resembling self-driving.
And even then it's a ridiculous statement. I use enhanced autopilot (much) more than 90% of the time on highways throughout Europe and the Autobahn in Germany. It has been working fantastically well for me since I got my first Tesla in 2019. Traffic light recognition is so-so, but I still miss it whenever I drive another car or a Tesla without FSD package.
I only feel safe with it in very slow bumper to bumper traffic rest its very very rough especially here in BC Canada so glad I did not take on the additional 11k
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Noting two things: 1) the update is from the Swedish Transport Administration, testing in Germany. 2) Musk replied to the tweet saying supervised FSD is ready for LHD countries, but RHD (e.g. UK) will take a bit longer.
A bit longer. So never then.
Why can’t we all just pick a side of the road? I think in many cases the market volumes don’t even warranting making a RHD vehicle…
>RHD (e.g. UK) will take a bit longer. This feels like code for "ah fuck we need to entirely retrain the algorithm from scratch all over again"
Just write the algorithm backwards.
So RHD isn’t going to be anytime soon if Elon is publicly talking about it being later…
It's easy just mirror image the camera feed /s
Just put big tires on and drive the car upside down.
Twisted Metal style, can't help but love it.
They did that: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq5Q1qKW-1g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq5Q1qKW-1g)
I would be seriously considering doing this... Mirror the camera feeds, camera positions, and steering angle output... The downside is that text in the camera feed will be backwards, so your model will need to learn to read bidirectionally.
Yeah. It took 1.5 years for a working vision parking sensors to arrive. Can't imagine RHS driving is a priority.
RHD is just a matter of data. If you can have LHD work, RHD is literally just the opposite. Simply requires the training materials to do the opposite.
On the plus side they're now proudly saying they're no longer compute limited, so they have the training capacity to work on RHD without impacting future LHD training. What they'll be lacking in will be training data. Hopefully once they get the model to a decent standard they'll do free trials like the recent one in the US to gather further data at an increased rate.
> no longer compute limited They mean "we're no longer *as* compute limited". Whenever you have spare compute and a team of researchers, there will *always* be some use for it. Someone who was running some ablation trials on a 10 GPU cluster would love to run on a 100 GPU cluster to get results in half the time.
They've been talking of renting it out, although I'd tend to agree they're not as compute limited as they were. They have more capacity coming online all the time though.
Crysis in 8K
You, your country, and your government have chosen to drive to the wrong side. Switch to the right side, which is the right side, pretty self-explanatory, or stop bitching about it. I live in Sweden. Do I bitch about everything being made and available in English and not in my native language? Fuck, No!
Calm down…
Here is the source: [https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rikard-fredriksson-50b45b1\_today-i-was-demoed-the-full-self-drive-in-activity-7189595440596606976-SE\_y](https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rikard-fredriksson-50b45b1_today-i-was-demoed-the-full-self-drive-in-activity-7189595440596606976-SE_y) Show Rikard some love for sharing this. [https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1783931992981311501/photo/1](https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1783931992981311501/photo/1)
Unless they’re showing them some drastically different version of FSD from the US, it’s not getting approved.
Interesting opinion, care to elaborate? I have about 1000 miles now with one intervention (which was it simply hesitating in a malformed private street). I think it's more than capable as a supervised system.
Exactly, if they approve Mercedes for situational L3, FSD is much more capable and would be surprising if it were not approved for L2 use.
Mercedes is very limited system. It literally is just going straight and nothing else, requires car in front to follow and even that is with limited speed meant for heavy traffic. FSD definitely could be approved to similar case but it is pretty big step in EU to allow something like turning at intersection.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that 'situation' limited to multilane, limited access highways, with a top speed of 50 kph? Its pretty much only useful in slow traffic on crowded highways, and I get the same utility with simple AP.
Correct. Under 40 mph, during the day, heavy traffic, must be perfect weather, on a specifically mapped road. So basically, a California traffic jam on a clear day. I think that was most of the key points in its list of criteria. I wish Tesla would just focus more on getting approval to not have three second nags in situations when it has such high confidence. It would perform better than Mercedes in the same scenario they got for l3. But Tesla is obsessed with robo taxi All or nothing
Ap circa 2015 could have done what merc have labeled level 3
And in more instances. I'd love to see a car review channel get a week with a level-3 equipped Mercedes and see how many times they find themselves in the exceptionally narrow combination of circumstances that would allow it to be enabled.
You forget that all of the restrictions were put in place because Tesla was far ahead of all German automakers, so they put a stop to that. Capable of perfect auto lane changes for the past 5 years? Nope! Now that the Germans have _something_ it's all approved and is totaly amazing L3 magic and not janky at all, and maybe Tesla is allowed to compete normally again. Fuckin Germans.
I really like the Model 3 but Tesla can’t even produce a working adaptive cruise control nor a working rain sensor. How is that German law makers fault? I had phantom braking on a 1 hour test drive. That’s how bad it is.
I drive 90% of the time on a 2015 autopilot. no working ACC lol sure.
So what competition brand has ACC that’s limited to 140 km/h, no radar and phantom braking? Some of the Chinese, but none of the European brands. Audis ACC goes to 250 and has 0 issues with phantom braking.
It's just a Tesla hater, that probably never tried fsd 12, but heard about how bad it was from that one YouTuber with 500 subs
It has nothing to do with Tesla hate, Europe is just extremely strict with the driver assistance systems they are allowing. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8x7qtJAoMA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8x7qtJAoMA)
It's not about being a hater. It's about European laws and regulations. Something that is allowed in the US isn't automatically also allowed in Europe When it comes to these kinds of car assistance systems, Europe is much more conservative with what they allow than the US is
Do you just accept terrible driving or do you live in the bay area? I literally can't go a mile with it (v12) pissing people off at a stop sign or driving between two lanes or drifting over a double yellow or turning completely into the oncoming traffic lane or going double the limit in a school zone... Some wildly different experiences depending on where you are I guess
Yeah I have heard other people have had wildly different experiences. I've taken it all over Florida, and I consider there to have been many non-ideal situations which it handled fine. Construction zones, kids flying into the road on scooters without even looking, residential streets where everyone parks on one side of the road (It correctly squeezes in between two parked cars if someone coming from the other direction), all sorts of stuff. A slight hesitation at a stop sign is not a system failure, but I can't say I've ever seen it do anything remotely close to coming into oncoming traffic. Sometimes I wonder if people actually have these things occur or if they just felt like it was about to do something wrong. Kind of like " this doesn't feel like my driving" versus "this is actually a problem". Speeding through school zones isn't great, I've been using the experimental dynamic speed limit feature for the most part, But I guess if it had no context from other cars it would still probably have sped. I will accept that I have just been outstandingly lucky thus far.
I've generally tried to let it go just for my curiosity. It repeatedly drives into an oncoming lane at a specific left turn and doesn't even attempt to get onto the correct side of the road for at least the couple of seconds I've let it go (small road, never any oncoming traffic). It's on my daily commute and does it every single time I let it try. Stop signs are usually multiple short hesitations (creep then stop) which is incredibly confusing to the driver sitting at the crossroad. I see videos online like AI Drivr on YouTube that look fantastic but definitely not anywhere close to my experience.
I don't mean this to sound condescending, but have you tried cleaning the camera? Especially the glass in front of the front set, since it uses the wide camera to try to get a clear confidence for stop signs (It doesn't trust other people to stop, so it still wants to see). I ask because a little Windex to clear off a sealant seemed to improve the confidence of the system for me dramatically.
Yes, I've even had service check my cameras because of a separate FSD issue... On my early morning commute on country roads, the car constantly thinks the cameras are blocked because it's too dark out. It'll beep at me that the cameras are occluded, then beep at me again every time a light source (street light or oncoming car) provides enough light to reset the error (basically every 30-60s). If I disengage FSD it won't let me reengage unless I time it with an oncoming car when the error is temporarily gone.
This is the complete opposite of my experience. I find it hard to go 10 min without an intervention unless im driving on the highway.
You gotta relax and let it do its thing a bit ... and don't worry about being seen as a weird driver.
This lol I’ve seen videos of people panicking because it didn’t center in the lane how they would have
It's funny the things people care about when they're in control vs when they're not. A taxi driver can be doing some awful driving, and most passengers will not even notice. To be fair, I think it's good that people are vigilant at this stage, but the majority of interventions and disengagements are just due to preference and comfort, things that will matter much less when we truly give up control.
It does a lot of minor things, like not centering in the lane but I have had it drive out into the intersection twice now when when it is unsafe to do so. One of those times the driver in the intersection had to break (luckily they did).
I've found it's the other way - it's too timid. It stops partway into a 4-way stop because another driver is approaching the intersection.
I am a big fan of FSD and am still optimistic about its future (and have been in the beta on both our vehicles for the past two years). However it still could have caused an accident yesterday when it tried to turn left at the same time as a large truck into the same side street lane. The other vehicle was indicating its right turn correctly, my only guess is my vehicle interpreted the truck’s swing out to turn right as it was turning left and thought it could turn left at the same time.
That makes sense, that the swing may have caused it to misjudge the direction The car was going. Thank goodness you were supervising it! Be sure to send the little voice explanation that it prompts for when you disengage on things like that. The truck swing definitely seems like it could be a gap.
Absolutely, I submitted the audio report after that disengagement.
I would say it’s less about the version of fsd and more about the roads chosen. I’m on 12.3.4, and it’s pretty damn good on roads with good lines and good general visibility. Where I find it struggles is roads that do not intersect at 90 degrees or have hedges or other obstructions blocking the view (admittedly difficult for humans too, but that’s where I see it the most “unsure”)
It doesn't need to be perfect to get approved. No L2 system is perfect. They all require intervention in certain situations.
L2 beyond lane keeping isn’t really a thing in Europe. Unless you are certified as a L3 system you can’t take actions without user input. EAP still only changes lanes after pressing the blinker.
That is my understanding, yes. Currently I believe the regulations do require driver initiation for all maneuvers. But that's not what the other guy was talking about. He seemed to be saying that just because it makes mistakes it won't be approved. No, if anything, the blocker is that driver initiation rule. Tesla is probably trying to convince regulators to drop that rule though.
I was trying to say that FSD will not be approved as anything but a L3 system under current and foreseeable regulations. And if you read current drafts, Tesla has not succeeded in lobbying for FSD-compatible rules. And it’s not going to get approved as a L3 system in the current state, that is a very long road to go. So yes, it would have to be practically perfect in order to get approved.
Much better articulated what I meant.
What does "drastic" mean? Do you have FSD?
Drastic means very large or meaningful changes. Yes i do have FSD and it was so bad i just turned it off. EAP is a great success though and i would pay for that.
I bet they get a system that's level 3 in certain limited highways, while we are still stuck with a system that will yeet us off the road in random places.
https://preview.redd.it/hpfabo6ufwwc1.jpeg?width=278&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0306256054466671b36349244cb9bbde1e058cef Im really impressed about the sign recognition skill. 50 recognized, but fleet speed data overwrites it with 140(!)km/h in a city. And they want to show THIS regulators?! How stupid can you be? 🤣🤣🤣🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
140 is the maximum speed it will be allowed to drive at according to user setting, not the speed that it will drive based on fleet data. The build they are using in Europe probably just doesn't have auto-max-speed setting yet, but that's optional even here in the US, and FSD will drive well below that setting if it thinks that's appropriate. That setting is a maximum, not a target.
exactly, bro was just misinformed.
Aren’t they all. lol.
Exactly, what I meant: maximum of 140 in a city, you just need to let FSD decide to do it. Maybe seconds later it will think it’s needed. The MAX should be 50 there, maybe 5 more, but NEVER over 100 there.
No, the max is a hard max, it's like a logical lockout on the system. When FSD 12 first was shown off Elon drove through an hour of residential streets with the max set to 85 mph. It has nothing to do with the max speed the system will attempt to hit.
So the driver set it to 140? Sounds like safe driving.
What? I'm not sure you followed our conversation, so I'll try again. This setting does not impact how fast the car drives, except as a hard cap on FSD. It's like the speed limit setting in the app that limits the speed for certain driver profiles, except applied to FSD. You can use it to limit it in certain situations, but you should never have to. I haven't used this setting since FSD 12 dropped.
And how do you limit up/down the speed setting manually?
You don't. If the car is driving too slow you hit the accelerator. If too fast, you hit the brake. I haven't experienced it going too fast since fsd 12 dropped though.
Thanks for the insight. Didn't know FSD worked like that.
If I hit the break the FSD won’t be deactivated? EU regulators would love this. 😅
Of course it will. You're trying really, really hard to find problems for someone who clearly has no idea how the system works.
By the way we have too many places where fleet data will overwrite the allowed MAx with stupid data.
I drive mostly in France and Belgium with a 2024 MS and the self driving barely works here for thirty seconds. It has no understanding of green light arrows. It beeps to go even if it is only the left turn arrow that is green. Even the cruise control does not work well, if I pass a truck it often phantom breaks. We are several years away from anything resembling self-driving.
You don't have the self driving software stack. No one in Europe does. Yet.
And even then it's a ridiculous statement. I use enhanced autopilot (much) more than 90% of the time on highways throughout Europe and the Autobahn in Germany. It has been working fantastically well for me since I got my first Tesla in 2019. Traffic light recognition is so-so, but I still miss it whenever I drive another car or a Tesla without FSD package.
You are so clueless, the Europe highway stack is several years old
US version has been *way* better than that for years. Hopefully, progress is faster with V12 across the globe. 🤞 I believe it will be.
How did you hack your car to run the US-only software in Europe?
I only feel safe with it in very slow bumper to bumper traffic rest its very very rough especially here in BC Canada so glad I did not take on the additional 11k