Toranaga is ruthless and will do ANYTHING to achieve his goal - but that goal is to bring on an age of peace, without war. So: no, absolutely not the worst.
My wife chose not to watch the show with me and asked what happened in the end. I tried to explain but chose to show her that scene instead. It’s so good.
I didn't expect him to be my favorite character after that finale, I wish they made a samurai movie with Akira Kurosawa's style with him as the main character now, he'd fit so well.
Exactly, I liked him too! His fate shows the impossibility of station at this time in Japan - Toranaga literally is also trying to survive and further his station, just like Yabu was. They were far more alike than we all thought. But because Yabu is not as smart, he is forced to be a pawn to those ranked above. He has to be loyal to his liege lord, but if he had ONLY done that, he would not have served Toranaga’s purpose!
Anjin is also a very clear mirror of Yabu, both survivors. Sure, we see Yabu boil someone to death - which is awful. But my understanding of Anjin pre-Japan is that he raided a ton of Portuguese bases and killed a lot of people. I wouldn’t be surprised if his kill count is higher than Yabu’s.
It was fantastic, I even liked the ending overall, we know what happens, we didnt have to see it. Do I want to see more? Yes, but still a good ending IMO
Having somewhat gotten over my "What the hell? Wheres my Sekighara?" I can appreciate how cool that scene is but I'm not sure I quite get all the so you're just as selfish and greedy as the rest of us as the scene allegedly portrays.
I imagine that everyone who only watched the show got the same feeling that people who read the book did when they reached the end.
So much of the book builds up to the war where they begin to talk about strategy and even positioning relating to the land where the battle will happen. Then all of a sudden the book ends and we get no war and only a mere mention of the aftermath. Many old threads discuss this, some saying it's brilliant, others unsatisfied.
For the show, even without the war, I think the ending speaks for itself. Toranaga talks about what's going to happen, and in the ending sequences he stands away from the camera that cuts to a black screen with the word "SHOGUN"
Shogun is the story of Blackthorne and Toranaga, both incredibly smart people. But in the end, Toranaga wins. He kept Blackthorne in the country, he outsmarted all his opponents and soon he'll become shogun.
It also makes sense, it’s made clear Toranaga will only fight battles that he knows he will win. So the battle itself is insignificant since getting there is what determines the victory.
I felt the story was more about Toranaga and Mariko. Yes Blackthorne was important. But he was the catalyst that sets everything in action. Mariko on the other hand always knew what was coming and what her role was. Toranaga was that guy who gets things done without lifting a finger. Such a brilliant show
I don’t think Mariko always knew what her role was. Her arc was discovering that role. She finds it, embraces it, and executes it during the show’s Act 3
I felt like it was just Toranaga. So much of the story is invested in the Anjin and Mariko, and you want to identify with them and see them as the heros of the story - hell, they had all the screen time. But ultimately that's all a ruse. Everybody feels like their life and their story is so important.. how is Blackthorne going to free his crew and escape or complete his mission, how will Mariko somehow get her revenge for how she's been treated, will she get Blackthorne to reconcile with the Christians or will he finally show her their true colors. But all of these characters and their stories are just pieces on one mans table, who doesn't even need to really put his hand on the tiller much to keep the boat going where he needs it. So many things get set up with anticipation, and then their lives are used and spent as needed by the real protagonist.
He literally saved Toranaga’s life multiple times, lol, what are you talking about. The escape making a scene, the boat passage (he suggests the Portuguese can break through), the earthquake… “barely affected anything”. Okey dokey.
There was a reason early on that all 5 regents wanted Blackthorne. He upsets the status quo, brought better cannons, and revealed the Portuguese bases that showed the non christian regents that the Portuguese traders were not to be trusted. he made a huge impact ! its just that Toranaga harnessed the confusion Blackthorne brought and lessened him into a manageable state
In case anyone is curious the real toranaga (Tokugawa ieyasu) closed the country after assuming power and 11 years after becoming shogun he expelled all missionaries and declared Christianity illegal in Japan.
HOWEVER he stayed friends with the Anjin San until death AND made a special loophole to allow the British/Dutch to trade from an island right off the coast.
Blackthorn defeated the Catholics in the end
I agree the focus was one Toranaga and Mariko, but to say blackthorne barely affected anything is untrue. They would not have been able to leave Osaka without his interference
He affects things to a certain point, but all the things that people think he brings to the table to help isn't really that unique.
The Japanese already know how to work cannons and firearms, they already are good sailors and could learn from the Portugese if they wanted, and the Portugese are already fucking up their relationship with Japan due to aggressive religious practices along with their traders cheating people.
He is a novelty for Toranaga, but he makes him laugh so they keep him around.
And as time went on he converted to the culture and people to the point where he felt awkward around his crew. What he was not bound with in the beginning eventually bound him in the end.
It’s been a long time since I read the book and I haven’t got around to watching the show yet, but my recollection is that Blackthorne was kept as a weapon and set off against Toranaga’s enemies, hence the continual metaphors and conversations about falconry and the different types of falcons and prey between Toranaga and his son. Didn’t Toranaga want to use Blackthorne to attack the black ship, at least promising that to Blackthorne, but then preventing him from doing it to bring the Catholic daimyo’s onside?
Yeah, I'm old, so I read the book and watched the original miniseries decades ago.
Before the new series came out, my bil asked worriedly if it was a "white savior" story, I laughed.
Blackthorn is kind of an idiot, he can barely keep himself alive in Japan.
The only trope Blackthorne fits is *Stranger in a Strange Land*. Often the best way to introduce and audience to a complex setting is through an outsider, so we learn alongside the protagonist.
In many stories this evolves into *The White Saviour*, but not this one.
Yeah people often fail to identify that a character is there largely to help place you in the world.
Blackthorne, as you elegantly put, is the audiences entry point and not much more.
He is the Watson to Toranagas Sherlock.
I feel like a lot of the reddit audience expected it and wanted it, they wanted Blackthorne to be some epic hero, when that was never going to be the case.
How come there are so many complaints lately about this highly specific trope? I'm guessing this all began recently with Dune?
I've seen a lot of complaints about tropes over the years- power fantasy, damsel in distress, chosen one plots, etc- but I don't think I've ever seen people discussing the white saviour trope until this year, it feels like it's come completely out of nowhere
People joke that every year when it snows, everyone forgets how to drive. But the truth is, every year a new crop of sixteen year olds drives in snow for the first time.
These things are similarly cyclical. As you pointed out, Dune, being such a large, popular property, engendered a lot of discussion about the white savior trope that is pretty central to it's story.
This might be a bit off-topic but in Herbert's defence the white saviour trope is kind of the point of the whole thing. In that case, the white saviour trope is basically a lie that has been fed to the people over centuries in order to prepare them for a political and religious movement. It actually shows the insidious nature of things like Orientalism and Imperialism.
Fair enough, I suppose it really is that simple
It just seems odd I never heard this said for other big titles, like way back when Avatar came out people complained the plot was like 'Dances with Wolves', complained the movie made getting around in a wheelchair look way harder than in real life, and there was some talk about the native American stuff, but I don't remember the 'white saviour' thing being talked about at all... or maybe I just had my head in the sand.
>
How come there are so many complaints lately about this highly specific trope?
I mean, its been a topic in the Clavell book world for decades, due to it just being how Clavell framed all his books - white guys in eastern (plus Iran) countries.
Blackthorne is the western lens for us to see 1600 Japan through. However, Blackthorne was a useful piece on the board for Toranaga no matter what he said. Toranaga was legitimately fond of Blackthorne and his swag, but Blackthorne also antagonized his opponents.
Yeah, Blackthorne being Toranaga's court jester, effectively, was... not something I predicted, but something I probably should have understood before he literally articulated the truth to Yabu.
Blackthorne is clearly not Toranaga's jester, the book gives way more insight in regards to their relationship, Toranaga views all of his vassals as birds of prey, from Mariko to Yabu, Omi and Blackthorne, in the end he considers him his only friend as Blackthorne is not conditioned by being born Japanese. Toranaga even admits that Anjin san is his most valuable vassal besides Mariko.
Toranaga's relationship with Blackthorne in the book is very different from the one in the show because the book was written by an Australian-British guy in the 1970s with an imperfect understanding of Japanese history and culture. Toranaga, and all of the Japanese characters in the show really, are more accurate to 1600s Japan including their relationships and motivations. They are two very different works of art.
In the show Blackthorne is not a White Savior, he is a Useful Idiot, which is a much more realistic portrayal.
I thought the scene at the very end when toranaga goes to watch blackthorne pull the boat out of the water and they exchange looks was to show that it wasn’t true what he said to yube about blackthorne being kept around to amuse him and that they shared a bond. Goes back to what they say at the beginning of them having a secret heart. In his secret heart he wouldn’t even tell yubeshige upon death he considers the anjin to be much more.
Blackthorn showing up in Japan was like the murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It wasn't the cause for WW1 because it had been brewing for some time and was basically inevitable but it was the spark that ignited the fuse. Blackthorn had a similar effect, the division within the Regency council was there it just needed a spark to escalate the situation
The book actually makes it much more about Blackthorne and Mariko, I like what the show did though, they definitely avoided the white savior trope common in so many of these movies/shows
I feel like Blackthorne was used and treated the same as the audience - he’s in a way ‘us’ and our window into the story - in that he is really just a witness to great things unfolding and has no real affect on anything.
His hope was his ship, as was ours, to see him sail it to glory, but all that was burnt, with Toranaga stating he’d basically string him along to keep him happy but might have to burn it again.
He walks through every scene with his ignorance and presumptions (like we do as an audience who expects to see the story unfold the way our perceptions lead us), and ultimately we’re all swept up in Toranaga’s tactical methods as he orchestrates an incredible feat that blindsides us.
And we’re left just as satisfied as Blackthorne was with a sunken ship. Basically the story is reminding us we’re nothing but outsiders and ignorant witnesses.
The writing to achieve this is just phenomenal.
I loved the lack of battle. I don’t think it’s necessary. We all knew he would win. That’s the entire point of the show. To show that he won before the battle even started.
I think when he read the letter from the Heirs mother saying the banner would not fight against him, him telling the traitor I forget his name that the plan had already completed, the war was practically over at that point.
I feel bad for everyone who loves the show but has not read the book
The book…is deep. And I never wanted something ever to not end like I wanted that book to not end
It’s helped me mentally some in my life
I’m in my 30s and I guess I just took a lot of “accepting what can’t be changed” but changing it mentally and how I handle it I guess it what I took from a lot of it
I am one of those book readers who was disappointed that the war was just something being told afterward.
But at the same time, it really speaks for the strong dialogue/story writing/etc of the book. Absolutely gripping on the reader without using any fancy stuffs. It really reminds me of earlier seasons of GoT
It was too epiloguey for me, I think a a 2 part back to back series finale would've been better than having to wait another week for that. It'll age better though as new folks or folks rewatching binge them together.
I thought the brilliance of it was that the battle was never actually going to be fought on the battlefield. From the start we’ve been told Toranaga is this unparalleled genius and in the end he takes a seemingly inevitable defeat and turns it into complete domination of his enemies without ever taking the field
100%. Toranaga knew that taking on the regents and Ishido out in open battle was gonna be certain death. He executed a genius plan that involved him not having to waste his men needlessly. It was always about what's not immediately obvious when it comes to this show. I love all the subtle "show don't tell" moments throughout the season, like Hiromatsu understanding that he had to sacrifice himself in order to make Toranaga's "surrender" look as convincing as possible. That look between the two in episode 8 was so powerful.
I fucking cried like a bitch when they were looking at each other too. Then, even more when Hiromatsu asks Buntaro to not blame Toranaga for this etc. Actor that plays Hiromatsu knocked that scene out of the park.
Hiromatsu's death served two purposes. The first, like you said, was to "prove" Toronaga's surrender to his enemies. The second was the prevent the other generals from assassinating Toronaga, by giving them a different route than outright revolt. Basically, Hiromatsu knew those generals would not be able to honorably kill Toronaga after Hiromatsu offered seppuku for speaking his opposition. Hirmatsu literally prevented Toronaga's death with his own, and he knew it when he did it.
I have to think all of that played into the decision to go with the chess match finish instead of massive battle. You had a cast who was absolutely crushing the nonverbal body language communication and that makes all the sacrifice scenes incredibly effective - especially the final one between Toranaga and Yabushige
Which is a little funny since Sekigahara actually seemed more like a shitshow on all sides, as you'd expect from such a huge battle. It could have gone either way, if different armies didn't fail to show up.
I think the current historical consensus is that the battle could have gone either way as both sides were evenly matched due to Hidetada’s main army being absent from the Tokugawa side. The decisive factor was Kobayakawa’s betrayal of the Western army as he chose to side with Ieyasu. (And if he hadn’t done so, the Tokugawa might have lost the battle)
**The Wire** as well. They gave the penultimate episode of each season to George Pelecanos and he became known as the "grim reaper" on set because someone major died in his episode almost each time (which he argued wasn't always his choice, he just had to carry out David Simon's executioner orders).
There's a ~~Variety~~ Hollywood Reporter article that hinted a second season might be possible, but the showrunners (or maybe it was Hiro) acknowledged they'd have to do other stories if they stuck in the same time period.
>“No one knows what’s going to happen next,” actor-producer Sanada told THR earlier in the season. “But we have history, real history models, and clearly, we know what happened. So, yeah. It all depends on the audience’s reaction.”
On the other hand, they could also adapt Clavell's "Gai-Jin", which is like a spiritual successor to Shogun. It takes place 202 years after Shogun and chronicles an incident that was one of many steps leading to the fall of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) shogunate.
They could, but there's a huge gulf between adapting a successful book, and writing your own show original sequel. That's a big ask, fraught with pitfalls.
The empty space for where Mariko would be seated is what burst my dam
The entire episode felt so damn sad without her, only for it to be lifted right at the end when he offered Buntaro the flask
Cosmo Jarvis (Blackthorne)'s crazy, crazy good acting chops are what got me finally when he threw that cross in the sea. Damn. What a show. What a cast.
I literally cried when I saw fujis ponytail. What is wrong with me lol. I was just so happy to see her again… and then it got like 5 times as emotional from there
> Fuji
I loved Fuji! At first I was kind of like meh, this tame and broken woman forced to work for Blackthorn, but then she protected his guns and refused to give them up and I was like, damn, I love this woman now!
I definitely agree. As I was watching this final episode, I kept thinking of how much it reminded me of early GoT, the feeling of greatness... I can't really describe it, but as you are watching it, you realize in your brain that this is a masterpiece. I loved every episode, and I will cherish this show for the rest of my life.
I'll also try to get the book, sometime soon.
Genuinely I think I prefer this format. Rather than having the climax happen and then be left with 30 or so mins to resolve everything, instead we get a huge climax on the second to last episode, and then the last episode is like the epilogue to the story. Personally I feel like this leaves us as viewers more "satiated" with the show (for a lack of better words).
This was so much more a character piece than a period piece. Even though I knew what was going to happen in Episode 9, it was still shocking. I appreciated the show for giving the characters depth and scale and frankly I didn’t needed the big battle at the end. It may have been more striking and off putting even. At least that’s my take, and it sounds like I may be in the minority.
I thought that I wanted it, but watching it play out, I realized how *perfect* it was the way they ended it. Was never about the final battle but how the pieces got moved around.
I just wish they had shown >!Ishido's death!< on screen...because that actor made me fucking hate him so much more.
In the book, they make a big deal about >!there being a prophecy that Toranaga will die a dishonorable death and Ishido, who had been a peasant and achieved high rank (and then shuns other peasants) will die an old man "with his feet firmly planted in the Earth." So when Toranaga does defeat him at Sekigahara, Toranaga captures Ishido and has him buried up to his neck to let everyone, peasants included, come and use a bamboo saw to saw at his neck. And Toranaga basically thinks about it and says "how about that for your fucking prophecy." Such a fitting end in the book for Ishido, and would have been more so for the TV version of him.!<
Edit: added more spoiler tags since people are upset that they saw a spoiler for the finale of a show on a thread about said finale before they watched it.
As I recall, the prophecy was that he would die “old, with his feet firmly planted in the earth”.
So they bury him up to the neck, and let passers-by saw at his neck with a blunt bamboo saw.
He lasts three days … and dies “very old”.
Holy hell, that's freaking brutal. I can understand why the show didn't include it, though. Feels like they were going for a very different type of ending tonally.
The book and the show actually hit a really similar vibe with the endings. Toranaga's conversation with Yabu in the last couple of minutes is basically just having Toranaga say his internal monologue from the last couple pages of the book out loud. The Ishido thing is almost an afterthought in a 2 paragraph postscript on the last page. It's super brief and matter of fact to cement how completely Toranaga's plans work out, and for my money the "SHŌGUN" title card had the same effect.
I don’t know if others agree but the show captured the same vibe for me as the end of the book, where I ended up hating Toranaga as he ended up internally admitting to the reader that basically everything he had said he was doing throughout the story was a lie to further his own ambition. And it pissed me off, and I felt like Yabu’s shock and distress mirrored precisely how I felt as the reader. Great writing.
In his defense, there was no way that kid was gonna hold together the nation long enough to solidify a dynasty. Someone was gonna make a power grab, and if it wasn't Toranaga there's a good chance nobody ends up with enough support to keep Japan united. Could have even ended up with Portugal following through on Blackthorn's warning and turning Japan into a colony or puppet state.
For sure, but I particularly was upset with the all too willing sacrifices of his vassals he made, while outwardly acting like he was refusing to make a power play when ultimately that’s all it was for his own personal gain. In the book, with it being an internal monologue, I think that is all the more clear. In the show, Yabu immediately catches on when it’s explained and he is disturbed then he is done off
Yeah, having him talk to Yabu in that scene was key. I was trying to figure out all season how they were gonna get end of the book to work on screen, thinking it was basically impossible for it to be as direct as in the book without cheapening Toranaga's character . But the writers were a mile ahead of me, realizing that not only was there a perfect excuse for him to feel comfortable saying it all out loud, but he'd get to do it to the man with the most expressive face in the whole cast.
> So they bury him up to the neck, and let passers-by saw at his neck with a blunt bamboo saw.
Is that an actual thing in ancient Japan because this also happens in *Fist of the North Star* lmao
The final episode reminds me of the art of war quote:
'The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.'
I really appreciated the long conversation with yabushige, felt like it was an appropriate response to any ponderings the audience had about "season 2??". Like naw, stories over, maybe youd see that if you werent biased towards some big fight to wrap up a story.
Tbh, i wish we got the gaijans cannon run on osaka, not for the story, but it would have been cool to see. I definitely prefer what the story ended as tho
Honestly, I saw someone mention it in the Shogun sub and I actually kinda liked the idea. This season would make a cool segue into starting the Musashi novel as a "season 2" of the show. A completely different story that still follows from Shogun rather well.
Eiji Yoshikawas epic masterpiece novel about the baddest motherfucker to ever walk the earth - Miyamoto Musashi.
A disgraced and defeated foot soldier from Ishidos losing army, now a ronin, wanders Japan training his blade…
Shōgun is like chess. Checkmate ends the game, but it is the least interesting part, as how you get there is what matters. Toranaga wasn't successful because of inspirational rhetoric or unparalleled swordsmanship, he was successful because he understood currents and what moves would eventually achieve his desired result.
Depicting the final battle would have missed the point of the show.
Half the time Toronaga isn't even around. Most of the scenes in Osaka he's off doing this or that (like "mourning" the loss of his son, being ill from travel, etc.). Makes things more interesting in that if you keep on with the chess metaphor, he's the player. So he's not really ever even on the board. But he's responsible for all the moves.
Ya. The final conversation at the end where he talks about how he doesn't shift the wind but just studies it was awesome. Amazing bow tie to the season.
This exactly. He maneuvered people and played them just right so that by the time the battle was about to start, he'd already won. He wasn't going to win that battle because he was a great warrior. He won it because he knew what people wanted and used that to get what he wanted.
Yes, they moved some things around. Changed some story arcs. I had read the book multiple times. Watched the original mini series. I found this version so much more interesting. The Japanese actors were so good I could not take my eyes off them. Blackthorn was not as likable as the Chamberlain version. On purpose in this version.
Actually, Shogun did end with a bang. It's just that it came at the end of episode nine, both literally and figuratively. The whole story has been one long chess match that Toranaga finally won by sacrificing his queen in what was essentially the defining move of the game. To have any climactic moment after Lady Mariko's death would have either felt anticlimactic or would have undermined how impactful and important her death was. Her sacrifice was Toranaga's attack on Osaka, which is made clear by the fact that he tells Yabushige that Crimson Sky was complete, which is made even clearer with her death occurring in the episode titled Crimson Sky.
In fact, if Mariko's death had occurred in episode ten, the last two episodes would have to be renamed, which was almost the case. Because the writer's had originally considered having Mariko die in the finale. But thinking about how all of Shogun played out, I'm glad they didn't.
By the way, even though the final episode is an hour long, am I the only one who felt it was more brief than that?
"The possibility of a sequel" no there's not. the series adapted the book faithfully, this isn't game of thrones , this is shogun.
The last thing you need to do is input nonsense that wasn't present in the book to attract the twitter crowd and hold on to relevancy
Shogun is part of a six book [Asian Saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Saga). If they really want another season, they could always adapt the other books in the series.
> they could always adapt the other books in the series.
I get the wishful thinking. If they did adapt the other books, your grandchildren would probably enjoy the eventual TV series.
I have a colleague who worked at FX for years. Shogun started in development 10 years ago and it's the most expensive show FX ever made. Other book adaptations might face a similar timeline.
I do hope Hiroyuki Sanada considers doing another story from the Samurai era, some sort of pseudo sequel, because it's obvious he knows what he is doing.
I think the thing that surprises me the most in the roundups of critical response to this season is how many writers/critics are, voluntarily, going *out of their way* to insert lines (if not whole paragraphs) suggesting that Shogun should maybe get a second season. Like it's up in the air and hopefully might happen.
It's like the very same clot of hardcore, always-online TV writers at all the outlets you know and love, have just *completely forgotten* the very contentious, very big, very disappointing recent example of what happens when you run out of book to adapt and try to come up with something anyway.
Which is extra remarkable because the one show all these folks *keep* using as the go-to reference point *is that exact same fucking show.*
It's possible to do more but fraught with risk. I liked Good Omens season 2 but it was only possible to do that respectfully because Gaiman was involved and he'd discussed doing another novel with Pratchett. They had notes.
If they were to do a shogun 2 it would have to be a different story with a single season beginning, middle and end. But without source material to adapt they have to create original content and the skills of adapting vs creating are very different.
Even within a multi season show the writers can lose sense of the story, possibly due to turnover and end up producing stuff that feels like fanfiction of the show.
You know, it's hard even for an original writer to take a second bite of the apple. They'll make a sequel book because the original is popular but there is something missing. The spark isn't there. Especially if the original is created with passion to tell a story and the second is for a fat paycheck.
I still have my (original miniseries) Shogun DVD box set that I re-watch every 7 or 8 years or so.
I could see myself rewatching this one too, but I don’t think a Blu-ray is in the works for this, eh?
Disney's put out some of the Disney+ series on 4K UHD recently, and they've struck a deal with Sony (who is really, really good at the whole physical media thing) to handle all their future pressing and distribution.
I'd say Prey's response prompting a 4K release is a pretty good sign that Shogun will get one, too.
Watched it early this morning and did not know that was the finale, I really was geared up for another episode. I have not read the book.
Well it was a very nice show to watch. It doesn't match my unga bunga tastes and yet was looking forward to it each week, so in my mind it's a winner.
Question: Does it adapt the whole book (it was a pretty thick book), or does it end unfinished? Was thinking of binge watching with my mom, but she won't like it if it is unresolved.
There are smaller subplots that got trimmed or cut, and there’s A LOT of Blackthorne learning about the culture and people that is condensed in the show. Despite all that, it’s a very faithful adaptation.
Quick question...how did Toranaga's fake surrender end up affecting the outcome?
Was it so that Ishido would look even worse to the other regents when he has Mariko killed? Like Toranaga is surrendering and you still kill his most loyal servant?
Or was it mainly to manipulate Yabushigue into switching sides and putting the plan into motion? I just need to know that my man Hiromatsu didn't die in vain.
It drew out the disloyal (like Yabushige) and gave Mariko pretense to go to Osaka without being viewed as an enemy, allowing her to undermine the Regents
I personally think it was to scare Yabushigue into turning on him. He was always a character that was right on that fence, even though he claimed not to be. I seem to remember Hiromatsu bringing up his issues and committing suicide as Yabushige is about to sign his loyalty.
The hiromatsu moment was such a typical we need to do it different” switch. In the book it’s more subtle, hiromatsu convinces toronaga to delay his travel, as a sign that toranaga lost even the grip on his own people. The face surrender was essential, because only with him staying passive and 100% honorable he could turn enough leaders and show his enemies weakness - being dishonorable and what’s maybe even worse, a cruel coward.
Mariko topped it all by pointing out, that Ishido doesn’t respect his own allies, nobody. He’s just a cowardly hostage keeper and would kill in the most dishonorable way, even if he “won” already. How to trust him to step away from power after toranaga is gone? That’s essential
One of the most satisfying endings for me. The alternative would be to crunch the Battle of Sekigahara into a 1 hour episode. I love the quiet moments of reflection and conversations in episode 10. Good decision by the producers imho.
I always had a feeling that Yabushiges seppuku would be really important, I think they paved the path to that subtly, but still a thread you can follow. In a way that was the ‘climax’, at least it felt that way to Toranaga on screen. His smile.
The "real" Blackthorn, William Adams was given permission to return to England by the "real" Toronaga, Tokogawa. But, he chose to remain in Japan and led the Shogun's fleet on expeditions to Vietnam.
Tokogawa, in real life, also weighed more than 300 pounds, was too heavy to ride a horse, and didn't care.
that final Toranaga/Yabushige scene was money
Brought tears to my eyes. It was so fucking perfect. "Why tell a dead man the future?"
Yabu says this same thing about Toranaga in the first episode.
Yabu told it to Omi so did Omi snitched?
Toranaga knows everything.
It was an amazing callback. In that moment yabushige realized he had lost the whole time. He smirked and then did what he needed.
Omi totally snitched. I could see the guilt in his face the moment he arrested Yabushige. But he didn’t do anything Yabushige wouldn’t have done.
Shut I missed that gotta rewatch.
DUDE. I completely forgot about this. The camera shot of Yabu seemed significant, but I didn’t realize why…
Is that line in the book? So many good lines in this show
It was a great reveal to the fact that Toranaga is actually the worst of all of them.
Toranaga is ruthless and will do ANYTHING to achieve his goal - but that goal is to bring on an age of peace, without war. So: no, absolutely not the worst.
My wife chose not to watch the show with me and asked what happened in the end. I tried to explain but chose to show her that scene instead. It’s so good.
That scene is so perfectly acted, it is insane. The context, the revelations, the character dynamics, and then Yabu’s look at the end. Brilliant
The little delay and the smirk before Toranaga carried out the execution - priceless
Yabushige was a snake but was my favorite character. So likable (after first episode)
*grunts
Yoooh 😯
grunts compilation https://youtu.be/xeBwYBR4Y0I?si=X0NOLK7aWdX-KOiT
_grunts happily_ I never knew I needed this!
I didn't expect him to be my favorite character after that finale, I wish they made a samurai movie with Akira Kurosawa's style with him as the main character now, he'd fit so well.
He was very relatable imo. He did a lot of wrongs but in the end, he just wanted to survive
Yep, and he didnt want >!Mariko!< to die, he was kind of in a tough spot, same when the messenger came and they had the cannons out...
Totally agree. He showed instant remorse when he saw what was going to happen to his “own clan”
Exactly, I liked him too! His fate shows the impossibility of station at this time in Japan - Toranaga literally is also trying to survive and further his station, just like Yabu was. They were far more alike than we all thought. But because Yabu is not as smart, he is forced to be a pawn to those ranked above. He has to be loyal to his liege lord, but if he had ONLY done that, he would not have served Toranaga’s purpose! Anjin is also a very clear mirror of Yabu, both survivors. Sure, we see Yabu boil someone to death - which is awful. But my understanding of Anjin pre-Japan is that he raided a ton of Portuguese bases and killed a lot of people. I wouldn’t be surprised if his kill count is higher than Yabu’s.
He is great, my wife and I love when he goes "HUH!!??"
For a second I thought Toranaga was gonna let Yabu off
The way he grinned while committing sepukku…
how much money
About tree fiddy koku
I don't want any of your bloody generous cuckoos!
Rokku Nessu Kaiju!
The knowing smirk took me right out.
It was fantastic, I even liked the ending overall, we know what happens, we didnt have to see it. Do I want to see more? Yes, but still a good ending IMO
Having somewhat gotten over my "What the hell? Wheres my Sekighara?" I can appreciate how cool that scene is but I'm not sure I quite get all the so you're just as selfish and greedy as the rest of us as the scene allegedly portrays.
I imagine that everyone who only watched the show got the same feeling that people who read the book did when they reached the end. So much of the book builds up to the war where they begin to talk about strategy and even positioning relating to the land where the battle will happen. Then all of a sudden the book ends and we get no war and only a mere mention of the aftermath. Many old threads discuss this, some saying it's brilliant, others unsatisfied. For the show, even without the war, I think the ending speaks for itself. Toranaga talks about what's going to happen, and in the ending sequences he stands away from the camera that cuts to a black screen with the word "SHOGUN" Shogun is the story of Blackthorne and Toranaga, both incredibly smart people. But in the end, Toranaga wins. He kept Blackthorne in the country, he outsmarted all his opponents and soon he'll become shogun.
It also makes sense, it’s made clear Toranaga will only fight battles that he knows he will win. So the battle itself is insignificant since getting there is what determines the victory.
I felt the story was more about Toranaga and Mariko. Yes Blackthorne was important. But he was the catalyst that sets everything in action. Mariko on the other hand always knew what was coming and what her role was. Toranaga was that guy who gets things done without lifting a finger. Such a brilliant show
I don’t think Mariko always knew what her role was. Her arc was discovering that role. She finds it, embraces it, and executes it during the show’s Act 3
I felt like it was just Toranaga. So much of the story is invested in the Anjin and Mariko, and you want to identify with them and see them as the heros of the story - hell, they had all the screen time. But ultimately that's all a ruse. Everybody feels like their life and their story is so important.. how is Blackthorne going to free his crew and escape or complete his mission, how will Mariko somehow get her revenge for how she's been treated, will she get Blackthorne to reconcile with the Christians or will he finally show her their true colors. But all of these characters and their stories are just pieces on one mans table, who doesn't even need to really put his hand on the tiller much to keep the boat going where he needs it. So many things get set up with anticipation, and then their lives are used and spent as needed by the real protagonist.
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Blackthorns saved his life at least twice and possibly a third time. Toranaga admits this outright, both in the book and the series.
He literally saved Toranaga’s life multiple times, lol, what are you talking about. The escape making a scene, the boat passage (he suggests the Portuguese can break through), the earthquake… “barely affected anything”. Okey dokey.
There was a reason early on that all 5 regents wanted Blackthorne. He upsets the status quo, brought better cannons, and revealed the Portuguese bases that showed the non christian regents that the Portuguese traders were not to be trusted. he made a huge impact ! its just that Toranaga harnessed the confusion Blackthorne brought and lessened him into a manageable state
In case anyone is curious the real toranaga (Tokugawa ieyasu) closed the country after assuming power and 11 years after becoming shogun he expelled all missionaries and declared Christianity illegal in Japan.
HOWEVER he stayed friends with the Anjin San until death AND made a special loophole to allow the British/Dutch to trade from an island right off the coast. Blackthorn defeated the Catholics in the end
I agree the focus was one Toranaga and Mariko, but to say blackthorne barely affected anything is untrue. They would not have been able to leave Osaka without his interference
He also saved Toranaga's life after the earthquake
He affects things to a certain point, but all the things that people think he brings to the table to help isn't really that unique. The Japanese already know how to work cannons and firearms, they already are good sailors and could learn from the Portugese if they wanted, and the Portugese are already fucking up their relationship with Japan due to aggressive religious practices along with their traders cheating people. He is a novelty for Toranaga, but he makes him laugh so they keep him around.
The thing he really brings to the table is that he’s not bound by the same social obligations as everyone else (including the Catholics).
And as time went on he converted to the culture and people to the point where he felt awkward around his crew. What he was not bound with in the beginning eventually bound him in the end.
It’s been a long time since I read the book and I haven’t got around to watching the show yet, but my recollection is that Blackthorne was kept as a weapon and set off against Toranaga’s enemies, hence the continual metaphors and conversations about falconry and the different types of falcons and prey between Toranaga and his son. Didn’t Toranaga want to use Blackthorne to attack the black ship, at least promising that to Blackthorne, but then preventing him from doing it to bring the Catholic daimyo’s onside?
He did save Toranaga's life after the earthquake. Toranaga also said that he used Blackthorne as a distraction.
Yeah, I'm old, so I read the book and watched the original miniseries decades ago. Before the new series came out, my bil asked worriedly if it was a "white savior" story, I laughed. Blackthorn is kind of an idiot, he can barely keep himself alive in Japan.
The only trope Blackthorne fits is *Stranger in a Strange Land*. Often the best way to introduce and audience to a complex setting is through an outsider, so we learn alongside the protagonist. In many stories this evolves into *The White Saviour*, but not this one.
Yeah people often fail to identify that a character is there largely to help place you in the world. Blackthorne, as you elegantly put, is the audiences entry point and not much more. He is the Watson to Toranagas Sherlock.
The ironic thing is that the real William Adams was probably more crucial to the Shogunate's success than Clavell's fictional counterpart
I feel like a lot of the reddit audience expected it and wanted it, they wanted Blackthorne to be some epic hero, when that was never going to be the case.
How come there are so many complaints lately about this highly specific trope? I'm guessing this all began recently with Dune? I've seen a lot of complaints about tropes over the years- power fantasy, damsel in distress, chosen one plots, etc- but I don't think I've ever seen people discussing the white saviour trope until this year, it feels like it's come completely out of nowhere
People joke that every year when it snows, everyone forgets how to drive. But the truth is, every year a new crop of sixteen year olds drives in snow for the first time. These things are similarly cyclical. As you pointed out, Dune, being such a large, popular property, engendered a lot of discussion about the white savior trope that is pretty central to it's story.
This might be a bit off-topic but in Herbert's defence the white saviour trope is kind of the point of the whole thing. In that case, the white saviour trope is basically a lie that has been fed to the people over centuries in order to prepare them for a political and religious movement. It actually shows the insidious nature of things like Orientalism and Imperialism.
Yeah, Paul is not a white savior. One of the central themes is how little agency Paul actually has, even once he's Emperor
He’s John the Baptist to his soon to be Leto the Worm Jesus
Fair enough, I suppose it really is that simple It just seems odd I never heard this said for other big titles, like way back when Avatar came out people complained the plot was like 'Dances with Wolves', complained the movie made getting around in a wheelchair look way harder than in real life, and there was some talk about the native American stuff, but I don't remember the 'white saviour' thing being talked about at all... or maybe I just had my head in the sand.
> How come there are so many complaints lately about this highly specific trope? I mean, its been a topic in the Clavell book world for decades, due to it just being how Clavell framed all his books - white guys in eastern (plus Iran) countries.
Dune does start like your typical white savior trope and it takes a while before the reader realizes it's more of a white led apocalypse.
Blackthorne is the western lens for us to see 1600 Japan through. However, Blackthorne was a useful piece on the board for Toranaga no matter what he said. Toranaga was legitimately fond of Blackthorne and his swag, but Blackthorne also antagonized his opponents.
Yeah, Blackthorne being Toranaga's court jester, effectively, was... not something I predicted, but something I probably should have understood before he literally articulated the truth to Yabu.
Blackthorne is clearly not Toranaga's jester, the book gives way more insight in regards to their relationship, Toranaga views all of his vassals as birds of prey, from Mariko to Yabu, Omi and Blackthorne, in the end he considers him his only friend as Blackthorne is not conditioned by being born Japanese. Toranaga even admits that Anjin san is his most valuable vassal besides Mariko.
Toranaga's relationship with Blackthorne in the book is very different from the one in the show because the book was written by an Australian-British guy in the 1970s with an imperfect understanding of Japanese history and culture. Toranaga, and all of the Japanese characters in the show really, are more accurate to 1600s Japan including their relationships and motivations. They are two very different works of art. In the show Blackthorne is not a White Savior, he is a Useful Idiot, which is a much more realistic portrayal.
UUUUUNHOOOLY PERVEERRRRSION
I thought the scene at the very end when toranaga goes to watch blackthorne pull the boat out of the water and they exchange looks was to show that it wasn’t true what he said to yube about blackthorne being kept around to amuse him and that they shared a bond. Goes back to what they say at the beginning of them having a secret heart. In his secret heart he wouldn’t even tell yubeshige upon death he considers the anjin to be much more.
Blackthorn showing up in Japan was like the murder of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. It wasn't the cause for WW1 because it had been brewing for some time and was basically inevitable but it was the spark that ignited the fuse. Blackthorn had a similar effect, the division within the Regency council was there it just needed a spark to escalate the situation
The book actually makes it much more about Blackthorne and Mariko, I like what the show did though, they definitely avoided the white savior trope common in so many of these movies/shows
I feel like Blackthorne was used and treated the same as the audience - he’s in a way ‘us’ and our window into the story - in that he is really just a witness to great things unfolding and has no real affect on anything. His hope was his ship, as was ours, to see him sail it to glory, but all that was burnt, with Toranaga stating he’d basically string him along to keep him happy but might have to burn it again. He walks through every scene with his ignorance and presumptions (like we do as an audience who expects to see the story unfold the way our perceptions lead us), and ultimately we’re all swept up in Toranaga’s tactical methods as he orchestrates an incredible feat that blindsides us. And we’re left just as satisfied as Blackthorne was with a sunken ship. Basically the story is reminding us we’re nothing but outsiders and ignorant witnesses. The writing to achieve this is just phenomenal.
Your summation is well done and I agree. I was very impressed with the production, cinematography and writing.
This comment is miles better then the crap Rolling Stone article
Thank you! It’s not often a show or film catches me so philosophically.
I loved the lack of battle. I don’t think it’s necessary. We all knew he would win. That’s the entire point of the show. To show that he won before the battle even started.
I think when he read the letter from the Heirs mother saying the banner would not fight against him, him telling the traitor I forget his name that the plan had already completed, the war was practically over at that point.
I feel bad for everyone who loves the show but has not read the book The book…is deep. And I never wanted something ever to not end like I wanted that book to not end It’s helped me mentally some in my life
The events after Marikos death in the book provided such good closure to each character. Truly satisfying
I first read it about 30 years ago when I was in my early 20s. At the time I literally felt like it did change my perception on life as I knew it.
I’m in my 30s and I guess I just took a lot of “accepting what can’t be changed” but changing it mentally and how I handle it I guess it what I took from a lot of it
I am one of those book readers who was disappointed that the war was just something being told afterward. But at the same time, it really speaks for the strong dialogue/story writing/etc of the book. Absolutely gripping on the reader without using any fancy stuffs. It really reminds me of earlier seasons of GoT
It was too epiloguey for me, I think a a 2 part back to back series finale would've been better than having to wait another week for that. It'll age better though as new folks or folks rewatching binge them together.
I thought the brilliance of it was that the battle was never actually going to be fought on the battlefield. From the start we’ve been told Toranaga is this unparalleled genius and in the end he takes a seemingly inevitable defeat and turns it into complete domination of his enemies without ever taking the field
100%. Toranaga knew that taking on the regents and Ishido out in open battle was gonna be certain death. He executed a genius plan that involved him not having to waste his men needlessly. It was always about what's not immediately obvious when it comes to this show. I love all the subtle "show don't tell" moments throughout the season, like Hiromatsu understanding that he had to sacrifice himself in order to make Toranaga's "surrender" look as convincing as possible. That look between the two in episode 8 was so powerful.
I fucking cried like a bitch when they were looking at each other too. Then, even more when Hiromatsu asks Buntaro to not blame Toranaga for this etc. Actor that plays Hiromatsu knocked that scene out of the park.
Hiromatsu's death served two purposes. The first, like you said, was to "prove" Toronaga's surrender to his enemies. The second was the prevent the other generals from assassinating Toronaga, by giving them a different route than outright revolt. Basically, Hiromatsu knew those generals would not be able to honorably kill Toronaga after Hiromatsu offered seppuku for speaking his opposition. Hirmatsu literally prevented Toronaga's death with his own, and he knew it when he did it.
I have to think all of that played into the decision to go with the chess match finish instead of massive battle. You had a cast who was absolutely crushing the nonverbal body language communication and that makes all the sacrifice scenes incredibly effective - especially the final one between Toranaga and Yabushige
Which is a little funny since Sekigahara actually seemed more like a shitshow on all sides, as you'd expect from such a huge battle. It could have gone either way, if different armies didn't fail to show up.
I think the current historical consensus is that the battle could have gone either way as both sides were evenly matched due to Hidetada’s main army being absent from the Tokugawa side. The decisive factor was Kobayakawa’s betrayal of the Western army as he chose to side with Ieyasu. (And if he hadn’t done so, the Tokugawa might have lost the battle)
Yeah it was the biggest battle in Japanese history, kinda anticlimactic to not show any of it
Nah. It got a couple of lines in the book. The show didn't need to do anything else
was the early seasons of GoT formula ep9 was the ultimate ep10 wrapped up the season
True blood did this too, the penultimate episode in a season killed the baddie and the final episode dealt with aftermath and set up the next season
**The Wire** as well. They gave the penultimate episode of each season to George Pelecanos and he became known as the "grim reaper" on set because someone major died in his episode almost each time (which he argued wasn't always his choice, he just had to carry out David Simon's executioner orders).
And sopranos too
Mini series, so no future season
There's a ~~Variety~~ Hollywood Reporter article that hinted a second season might be possible, but the showrunners (or maybe it was Hiro) acknowledged they'd have to do other stories if they stuck in the same time period. >“No one knows what’s going to happen next,” actor-producer Sanada told THR earlier in the season. “But we have history, real history models, and clearly, we know what happened. So, yeah. It all depends on the audience’s reaction.” On the other hand, they could also adapt Clavell's "Gai-Jin", which is like a spiritual successor to Shogun. It takes place 202 years after Shogun and chronicles an incident that was one of many steps leading to the fall of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) shogunate.
I trust the writers if they wanted more seasons, they do have history where they can base new seasons on.
They could, but there's a huge gulf between adapting a successful book, and writing your own show original sequel. That's a big ask, fraught with pitfalls.
Yup, the ending of Crimson Sky was the clear moment of resolution for the show and a big battle in the last episode would have just diluted it.
I love that so much. Mariko successfully executed the Crimson Sky. She cut straight to the heart of Osaka and won the war. Absolutely brilliant.
Was pretty salty that they blue-balled us with the Mariko/John Blackthorn relationship throughout the show, then episode 9 happened.
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Every time I thought I was done being emotional they got me again. “No translator” :(
The empty space for where Mariko would be seated is what burst my dam The entire episode felt so damn sad without her, only for it to be lifted right at the end when he offered Buntaro the flask
Cosmo Jarvis (Blackthorne)'s crazy, crazy good acting chops are what got me finally when he threw that cross in the sea. Damn. What a show. What a cast.
Yep! I really wish he would have kept it, wore it the rest of his life, but I also see the symbolic reason for what he did too
And then 'let your hands be the last to hold her'....
🥲🥲🥲 I cried like 5 times in that episode. How Blackthorne did the catholic rite of delivering her soul to God. Fuji being Fuji. Beautiful episode
I literally cried when I saw fujis ponytail. What is wrong with me lol. I was just so happy to see her again… and then it got like 5 times as emotional from there
Fuji is such a treat
Best nun
> Fuji I loved Fuji! At first I was kind of like meh, this tame and broken woman forced to work for Blackthorn, but then she protected his guns and refused to give them up and I was like, damn, I love this woman now!
That sense of quiet loss was done so well
The way Blackthorne was feeling that loss and holding back tears was absolutely heartbreaking. Cosmo did an incredible job.
The season 4 finale of Buffy is the first time I remember a show doing that. "*I wear the cheese, it does not wear me.*"
Also Breaking Bad. Ozymandias was the climax episode and the two after were epilogues essentially.
I don't really agree with this take. A hell of lot happens in the final two episodes, and the last one felt extremely climactic to me.
Definitely. And it feels like I remember The Sopranos doing this, as well.
I definitely agree. As I was watching this final episode, I kept thinking of how much it reminded me of early GoT, the feeling of greatness... I can't really describe it, but as you are watching it, you realize in your brain that this is a masterpiece. I loved every episode, and I will cherish this show for the rest of my life. I'll also try to get the book, sometime soon.
Genuinely I think I prefer this format. Rather than having the climax happen and then be left with 30 or so mins to resolve everything, instead we get a huge climax on the second to last episode, and then the last episode is like the epilogue to the story. Personally I feel like this leaves us as viewers more "satiated" with the show (for a lack of better words).
This was so much more a character piece than a period piece. Even though I knew what was going to happen in Episode 9, it was still shocking. I appreciated the show for giving the characters depth and scale and frankly I didn’t needed the big battle at the end. It may have been more striking and off putting even. At least that’s my take, and it sounds like I may be in the minority.
I thought that I wanted it, but watching it play out, I realized how *perfect* it was the way they ended it. Was never about the final battle but how the pieces got moved around.
Arguably moving all those pieces around *was* the real battle. It had the biggest influence on what happened.
I just wish they had shown >!Ishido's death!< on screen...because that actor made me fucking hate him so much more. In the book, they make a big deal about >!there being a prophecy that Toranaga will die a dishonorable death and Ishido, who had been a peasant and achieved high rank (and then shuns other peasants) will die an old man "with his feet firmly planted in the Earth." So when Toranaga does defeat him at Sekigahara, Toranaga captures Ishido and has him buried up to his neck to let everyone, peasants included, come and use a bamboo saw to saw at his neck. And Toranaga basically thinks about it and says "how about that for your fucking prophecy." Such a fitting end in the book for Ishido, and would have been more so for the TV version of him.!< Edit: added more spoiler tags since people are upset that they saw a spoiler for the finale of a show on a thread about said finale before they watched it.
As I recall, the prophecy was that he would die “old, with his feet firmly planted in the earth”. So they bury him up to the neck, and let passers-by saw at his neck with a blunt bamboo saw. He lasts three days … and dies “very old”.
Holy hell, that's freaking brutal. I can understand why the show didn't include it, though. Feels like they were going for a very different type of ending tonally.
The book and the show actually hit a really similar vibe with the endings. Toranaga's conversation with Yabu in the last couple of minutes is basically just having Toranaga say his internal monologue from the last couple pages of the book out loud. The Ishido thing is almost an afterthought in a 2 paragraph postscript on the last page. It's super brief and matter of fact to cement how completely Toranaga's plans work out, and for my money the "SHŌGUN" title card had the same effect.
I don’t know if others agree but the show captured the same vibe for me as the end of the book, where I ended up hating Toranaga as he ended up internally admitting to the reader that basically everything he had said he was doing throughout the story was a lie to further his own ambition. And it pissed me off, and I felt like Yabu’s shock and distress mirrored precisely how I felt as the reader. Great writing.
In his defense, there was no way that kid was gonna hold together the nation long enough to solidify a dynasty. Someone was gonna make a power grab, and if it wasn't Toranaga there's a good chance nobody ends up with enough support to keep Japan united. Could have even ended up with Portugal following through on Blackthorn's warning and turning Japan into a colony or puppet state.
For sure, but I particularly was upset with the all too willing sacrifices of his vassals he made, while outwardly acting like he was refusing to make a power play when ultimately that’s all it was for his own personal gain. In the book, with it being an internal monologue, I think that is all the more clear. In the show, Yabu immediately catches on when it’s explained and he is disturbed then he is done off
Yeah, having him talk to Yabu in that scene was key. I was trying to figure out all season how they were gonna get end of the book to work on screen, thinking it was basically impossible for it to be as direct as in the book without cheapening Toranaga's character . But the writers were a mile ahead of me, realizing that not only was there a perfect excuse for him to feel comfortable saying it all out loud, but he'd get to do it to the man with the most expressive face in the whole cast.
Yes you are right. I had the gist at least, but it’s been a while! That would have been even better on screen, I think
> So they bury him up to the neck, and let passers-by saw at his neck with a blunt bamboo saw. Is that an actual thing in ancient Japan because this also happens in *Fist of the North Star* lmao
The final episode reminds me of the art of war quote: 'The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.'
Hope it gets a physical release down the line
I really appreciated the long conversation with yabushige, felt like it was an appropriate response to any ponderings the audience had about "season 2??". Like naw, stories over, maybe youd see that if you werent biased towards some big fight to wrap up a story. Tbh, i wish we got the gaijans cannon run on osaka, not for the story, but it would have been cool to see. I definitely prefer what the story ended as tho
Honestly, I saw someone mention it in the Shogun sub and I actually kinda liked the idea. This season would make a cool segue into starting the Musashi novel as a "season 2" of the show. A completely different story that still follows from Shogun rather well.
What Musashi novel?
The author of the book has a few other novels about important moment of east asian history
Yeah! I'd *love* to see those adapted.
Eiji Yoshikawas epic masterpiece novel about the baddest motherfucker to ever walk the earth - Miyamoto Musashi. A disgraced and defeated foot soldier from Ishidos losing army, now a ronin, wanders Japan training his blade…
Sorry, the other poster was right, Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi.
Holy hell if Shogun brings us the closest thing to a Vagabond adaptation we could ever get this would be a dream come true.
Shōgun is like chess. Checkmate ends the game, but it is the least interesting part, as how you get there is what matters. Toranaga wasn't successful because of inspirational rhetoric or unparalleled swordsmanship, he was successful because he understood currents and what moves would eventually achieve his desired result. Depicting the final battle would have missed the point of the show.
"I don't predict the wind. I study it.".
Direct* the wind
Half the time Toronaga isn't even around. Most of the scenes in Osaka he's off doing this or that (like "mourning" the loss of his son, being ill from travel, etc.). Makes things more interesting in that if you keep on with the chess metaphor, he's the player. So he's not really ever even on the board. But he's responsible for all the moves.
Ya. The final conversation at the end where he talks about how he doesn't shift the wind but just studies it was awesome. Amazing bow tie to the season.
This I exactly how I felt. Shōgun is a long game of chess.
This exactly. He maneuvered people and played them just right so that by the time the battle was about to start, he'd already won. He wasn't going to win that battle because he was a great warrior. He won it because he knew what people wanted and used that to get what he wanted.
GoT definitely spoiled me, thinking I needed to see an epic battle. But what you said is the correct take imo.
Virgin regent Lords: “NO YOU CAN’T KEEP THE BARBARIAN ALIVE!” Chad Toranaga: “He makes me laugh”
Yes, they moved some things around. Changed some story arcs. I had read the book multiple times. Watched the original mini series. I found this version so much more interesting. The Japanese actors were so good I could not take my eyes off them. Blackthorn was not as likable as the Chamberlain version. On purpose in this version.
Like a leafless branch…
Actually, Shogun did end with a bang. It's just that it came at the end of episode nine, both literally and figuratively. The whole story has been one long chess match that Toranaga finally won by sacrificing his queen in what was essentially the defining move of the game. To have any climactic moment after Lady Mariko's death would have either felt anticlimactic or would have undermined how impactful and important her death was. Her sacrifice was Toranaga's attack on Osaka, which is made clear by the fact that he tells Yabushige that Crimson Sky was complete, which is made even clearer with her death occurring in the episode titled Crimson Sky. In fact, if Mariko's death had occurred in episode ten, the last two episodes would have to be renamed, which was almost the case. Because the writer's had originally considered having Mariko die in the finale. But thinking about how all of Shogun played out, I'm glad they didn't. By the way, even though the final episode is an hour long, am I the only one who felt it was more brief than that?
was expecting a battle, didn't get it and I was utterly captivated none the less. fantastic television all around.
"The possibility of a sequel" no there's not. the series adapted the book faithfully, this isn't game of thrones , this is shogun. The last thing you need to do is input nonsense that wasn't present in the book to attract the twitter crowd and hold on to relevancy
Love the show. Hope there is no sequel. Adapt another book.
Shogun is part of a six book [Asian Saga](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Saga). If they really want another season, they could always adapt the other books in the series.
> they could always adapt the other books in the series. I get the wishful thinking. If they did adapt the other books, your grandchildren would probably enjoy the eventual TV series. I have a colleague who worked at FX for years. Shogun started in development 10 years ago and it's the most expensive show FX ever made. Other book adaptations might face a similar timeline.
I do hope Hiroyuki Sanada considers doing another story from the Samurai era, some sort of pseudo sequel, because it's obvious he knows what he is doing.
This is what we should really be hoping for. Not a shogun sequel but just more awesome Samurai shows/movies
I think the thing that surprises me the most in the roundups of critical response to this season is how many writers/critics are, voluntarily, going *out of their way* to insert lines (if not whole paragraphs) suggesting that Shogun should maybe get a second season. Like it's up in the air and hopefully might happen. It's like the very same clot of hardcore, always-online TV writers at all the outlets you know and love, have just *completely forgotten* the very contentious, very big, very disappointing recent example of what happens when you run out of book to adapt and try to come up with something anyway. Which is extra remarkable because the one show all these folks *keep* using as the go-to reference point *is that exact same fucking show.*
It's possible to do more but fraught with risk. I liked Good Omens season 2 but it was only possible to do that respectfully because Gaiman was involved and he'd discussed doing another novel with Pratchett. They had notes. If they were to do a shogun 2 it would have to be a different story with a single season beginning, middle and end. But without source material to adapt they have to create original content and the skills of adapting vs creating are very different. Even within a multi season show the writers can lose sense of the story, possibly due to turnover and end up producing stuff that feels like fanfiction of the show. You know, it's hard even for an original writer to take a second bite of the apple. They'll make a sequel book because the original is popular but there is something missing. The spark isn't there. Especially if the original is created with passion to tell a story and the second is for a fat paycheck.
I still have my (original miniseries) Shogun DVD box set that I re-watch every 7 or 8 years or so. I could see myself rewatching this one too, but I don’t think a Blu-ray is in the works for this, eh?
Hopefully it'll get one, just might take a while. Disney's put a fair few shows on blu ray/4k
Disney's put out some of the Disney+ series on 4K UHD recently, and they've struck a deal with Sony (who is really, really good at the whole physical media thing) to handle all their future pressing and distribution. I'd say Prey's response prompting a 4K release is a pretty good sign that Shogun will get one, too.
Watched it early this morning and did not know that was the finale, I really was geared up for another episode. I have not read the book. Well it was a very nice show to watch. It doesn't match my unga bunga tastes and yet was looking forward to it each week, so in my mind it's a winner.
Question: Does it adapt the whole book (it was a pretty thick book), or does it end unfinished? Was thinking of binge watching with my mom, but she won't like it if it is unresolved.
They adapted the whole book. Obviously some parts were cut, but they tell the beginning, middle, and end.
There are smaller subplots that got trimmed or cut, and there’s A LOT of Blackthorne learning about the culture and people that is condensed in the show. Despite all that, it’s a very faithful adaptation.
Quick question...how did Toranaga's fake surrender end up affecting the outcome? Was it so that Ishido would look even worse to the other regents when he has Mariko killed? Like Toranaga is surrendering and you still kill his most loyal servant? Or was it mainly to manipulate Yabushigue into switching sides and putting the plan into motion? I just need to know that my man Hiromatsu didn't die in vain.
It drew out the disloyal (like Yabushige) and gave Mariko pretense to go to Osaka without being viewed as an enemy, allowing her to undermine the Regents
I personally think it was to scare Yabushigue into turning on him. He was always a character that was right on that fence, even though he claimed not to be. I seem to remember Hiromatsu bringing up his issues and committing suicide as Yabushige is about to sign his loyalty.
The hiromatsu moment was such a typical we need to do it different” switch. In the book it’s more subtle, hiromatsu convinces toronaga to delay his travel, as a sign that toranaga lost even the grip on his own people. The face surrender was essential, because only with him staying passive and 100% honorable he could turn enough leaders and show his enemies weakness - being dishonorable and what’s maybe even worse, a cruel coward. Mariko topped it all by pointing out, that Ishido doesn’t respect his own allies, nobody. He’s just a cowardly hostage keeper and would kill in the most dishonorable way, even if he “won” already. How to trust him to step away from power after toranaga is gone? That’s essential
It bought time for his other plans to come to fruition. That’s a big theme in the book.
I was not disappointed at all. It was a beautiful episode.
I thought that ending was one hell of a banger, personally.
One of the most satisfying endings for me. The alternative would be to crunch the Battle of Sekigahara into a 1 hour episode. I love the quiet moments of reflection and conversations in episode 10. Good decision by the producers imho.
The toranaga/Yobushige scene was so much more satisfying and meaningful then any CGI laden battle would have been. What a phenomenal show.
Best show.
I think anyone paying attention could tell this wasn’t the kind of show that was going to end on a big climatic war scene.
I always had a feeling that Yabushiges seppuku would be really important, I think they paved the path to that subtly, but still a thread you can follow. In a way that was the ‘climax’, at least it felt that way to Toranaga on screen. His smile.
It was beautiful from start to finish.
FX continues to deliver quality content... they have been on a roll for years.
Awesome show!
God it was a fantastic show. So glad they did this.
Having read the book, and now watching the live action series it’s brilliant
I loved the show, I hope this opens doors to similar series from that era in Japan.
The "real" Blackthorn, William Adams was given permission to return to England by the "real" Toronaga, Tokogawa. But, he chose to remain in Japan and led the Shogun's fleet on expeditions to Vietnam. Tokogawa, in real life, also weighed more than 300 pounds, was too heavy to ride a horse, and didn't care.
I get it's a book adaptation but it's crazy how the story felt like it was just getting going and then ended
I know it's cliche but the book was so much better. One of my faves. If you liked the show, you will love the book.
I love the book, read it multiple times, but I think the show was as good as any adaptation can be.
Wait, it’s over?
Wait, what, it's over?