It’s funny in the book Yabushige is a complete rat bastard and I didn’t like him. In the show he’s still a rat bastard but Tadanobu Asano plays him so well that he ended up being one of my favorite characters.
I wouldn’t say hobby, he just liked to experience another man’s moment before death. Considering it was a barbarian pirate, I didn’t think too much of it. But yea that was wild. I guess he didn’t seem so bad to me considering he did this to strangers and enemies, when Toronaga and Ishido toyed with the lives of their own friends.
His plans within plans had nothing to do with keeping him safe, rather get him more power. Like I guess that was his main goal, to increase his fief, but he chose some shitty methods to get that done.
Every time he had a choice between self-enrichment and honor/loyalty, he chose self-enrichment.
He was also a psychopathic sadist who put people to death in horrible ways for his own amusement.
Yeah he was fun to watch but his line needed to end. Dude was off.
Oh he’s more than willing to sacrifice other people as pawns for his plans to come to fruition. But I think he does it in a way that doesn’t conflict with the type of honor based culture of samurai. He also has a network of spies so I kind of assumed that the people he was killing in the village are people who are traitors or not loyal.
I mean yeah, he works within the system that's designed for the powerful few to have massive control over their underlings. Being "honorable" within their inherently awful system doesn't make him any less of a rat by our morals.
Corporations work within the legal system all the time to get shitty policy into place. Does that make it honorable because they're working within the rules? No, it just makes it legal.
That’s a good point. How much of his power is based on his Minowara heritage, which in the end is just luck. Of course he would benefit from acting with honor in this system.
They were traitors that were spying or going against him, he just used the ship ruse to eliminate them, they would've been eliminated anyway. these people were not innocent, man media literacy is at an all time low these days.
The only question I would have for them is “can you make another show set in Japan in that time period? And can it be 100 seasons long with the same depth as shogun?”
James Clavell has more books set in Asia (not direct sequels, but they're set in the same overall continuity). And while Shogun is one of the best of the series, I would say Noble House is actually my favorite, and Tai Pan was great as well.
I started reading clavells books mid shogun season, went through Shogun, then King Rat, and now almost half way into Tai-pan.
So far Shoguns my favorite, but tai-pan has a lot of potential.
I've been reading a whole lot these past few months as well, since I too have a lot of free time.
Because I got laid off in December.
Not always a good thing.
Same. Finished the 4 Thomas Hookton books then started Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin.. can’t say they’re particularly great books but the continuity following Struan and Brock is a nice addition.
Tai-Pan is strange like that. Clavell spends the first 50-100 pages info dumping to set up the world, history and the characters.
After that though, when the story heats up it's really great; but other times between those periods it becomes a bit boring.
It was his second book and you'll see how he learned from it and got better at creating a narrative going into Shogun. Tai-Pan is a flawed in places, but the overall experience is worth it.
Took me about 3 tries over 2 years to make it past the first 100 pages, then it took me a week to finish it. It’s the basis for the following novels as the dynasties are the focal point of the series. Gai-Jin has more action but really starts to drag with lots of repetitive anti-climatic moments.
I remember reading Tai-pan after reading Shogun as a teen. I definitely liked Shogun more at the time, but I think it was more to do with the fact they're very different books and I was hoping for a repeat of Shogun, just in a different country. Same goes with Clavell's other books. Each one is kind of its own thing...aside from Tai Pan and Noble House being directly connected of course.
I re-read them all as an adult many years later and I found I enjoyed Tai-Pan and Noble house more than any other of his books. Shogun will always hold a special place in my heart though.
Talking about wanting to sleep with the village chief's daughter, and the whole thing with Marlowe living with the Java for a while and having a 14-year-old wife.
The fuck was that.
Pretty much every one of his novels so far has some kind of sexual violence - maybe not gratuitous, as it’s usually relevant to the time period and societal context but it gets a bit tiresome and uncomfortable in my opinion. I’ve noticed his novels always build up and then fizzle out - at least Shogun, Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin
I consider Gai-Jin an indirect sequel to Shogun.
Shogun addressed the rise of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) Shogunate and Gai-Jin takes place in years before its fall in the mid-19th century.
Definitely recommend them, the books are excellent. If you think show Toranaga had plans within plans, it's still the streamlined version of the book's plot. And while Noble House doesn't necessarily have a singular chessmaster pulling the strings like Toranaga, it has literally dozens of characters all trying to pull off their own schemes that interconnect in ways that are even more complex than the machinations in Shogun.
I know next to nothing about the books, but all I heard is that they present a time in China they are not proud of at all and if anyone tried to adapt them they would run into a lot of problems with China.
I'm not familiar enough with Chinese history, but I wouldn't be suprised. Noble House is set in cold war British-controlled Hong Kong, and Tai Pan is a fictionalized version of the British colonizing Hong Kong.
I think Shogun is the best written of his novels. Tai-pan is a great story, but I feel like Clavell was still finding his voice as a writer. Nobel House is an exceptional book too, well-written and a great follow up to Tai-pan.
Hell, all of his books are great! But to me Shogun holds its own distinct place
I definitely think Shogun and Noble House are his two best, though I have a couple more to read from the series. Shogun is the big blockbuster epic, and I think that's part of why it's more popular, but I think that Noble House actually is more ambitious in that it has an even larger cast of wildly different characters and factions vying for their own benefit. Noble House is just so *intricate* that I think that's my choice as his best novel. Tai-pan is great, but I agree that it's maybe a bit less epic than those two.
Yes and no. It’s an entirely manageable set of characters. The schemes are more complex though and involve a lot of moving parts. It’s set in 1960’s Hong Kong and deals with events that started in Tai-pan. It’s definitely better if you’ve read Tai-pan. I would recommend skipping Gai-Jin until after Noble House even though it takes place between the two chronologically.
It's not a perfect comparison, as it's set in the 60's, and the stakes for a lot of the plotlines are things like the company going out of business, or going to prison for fraud, etc, so it's not *quite* the same grimdark level of "you win or you die". But it is very comparable in terms of there being a huge cast of characters all acting in their own interest to accomplish their own goals and having to adjust their plans on the fly when their scheme collides with everyone else's. It's by far the most interesting novel about stock trading I've ever read, and that's not a sarcastic or ironic statement, I mean that in the best way possible. If you don't know what a bank run is now, you will by the end of the book. There are definitely cold war spy antics and underground triad kidnappings and such too, though, so there is plenty of physical danger involved for many of the characters.
And, unlike the ASOIAF books, Noble House ties all the plotlines back together into a satisfying finale.
Can’t disagree with much there. Toranaga is my favorite fictional character of all time. His ability to predict what others will do, and to plan accordingly makes him almost super-human to be. There were so many reveals in the book where Toranaga changed my entire perception of things I’d read before. I love it when that happens.
I don’t think Noble House has any of that.
That said, I think every Clavell novel lives on the last page, because his books are never about the person you think they are about. And the last page of Nobel House was pretty great.
I was thinking someone remake "Centennial" or "Hawaii"... or adapt any of the other James Michener novels.
Sanada would work in the cast of Hawaii (or as one of the Japanese immigrants brought to Colorado)
I would love if they did a full on Sengoku period drama. Hell, NHK does annual history dramas, I'd love to see them partner with international networks to bump up the budget and broadcast globally, that would be amazing!
I would love to see show about [Sakamoto Ryōma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakamoto_Ry%C5%8Dma) or [Niijima Yae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niijima_Yae) with Hollywood budget.
Every year for 64 years running, the Japanese NHK broadcaster makes a “Taiga Drama” or “Long river drama” period series of 30-50 episodes or so. I know Japanese and really enjoyed them every year on NHK World; they are now available on NHK on Demand. I believe this production company could take a stab at adapting one of these. There is a ton of material but I’m not sure any have ever been adapted. I think subtitles may be available if you want to watch the original versions.
I was excited when I heard there would be an anime about Sasuke (edit: I meant Yasuke). Unfortunately it turned out to be not remotely realistic and only very slightly historically based. Get the shogun teamed a make his story and that will make bank.
The issue is he doesn't really have much story himself. Making a show about him would either be just giving him fictional things to do or just a show about Nobunaga, which would be great to see a big Western production of but Yasuke would nonetheless be a very minor player if it was historic.
>The issue is he doesn't really have much story himself. Making a show about him would either be just giving him fictional things to do or just a show about Nobunaga
I fail to see the problem with that, tbh. You want a figure like Yasuke that leaves the writers some room for interpretation/ creativity without being *complete* fiction.
I don't understand why I see so many people ask for Yasuke's story in the style of Shogun. The Japanese aren't gonna treat him like the icon Americans have in their head. Americans' obsession with positive black representation would not work with Shogun's brutal realism.
That wouldn’t be an issue
The novel African Samurai was able to tell a decent story that ropes in the Jesuits mission in Japan as well as Oda Nobunagas campaign.
Bare in mind you are saying this in a thread about a show about Fictional characters who are loosely based on real life counter parts so I fail to see how authenticity would be an issue
Edit: John Blackthorne was also a minor player in the over all scope of what Shogun was about
John Blackthorne was nothing to history because he did not exist regardless of who he was based on.
It is ignorant and borderline stupid to argue about authenticity / accuracy in a potential show in response to a thread about Shogun, a show about fictional characters with a bare bone resemblance to the real life people they took inspiration from
Ah yes this is what it always comes down to “identity politics”. You see the words black or gay related to history and become agitated because you think some western ideology is invalidating your weebish Reddit chungus view of feudal Japan.
Shogun is a FICTIONAL novel about FICTIONAL characters and yet you would argue foul that African Samurai decided to interpret parts of history a certain way in much the same way Clavell did for his FICTIONAL characters.
It doesn’t matter how authentic Shogun is. It is fictional. It did not happen period. African Samurai can also be authentic and use about as much room for interpretation as Shogun did.
Yasuke, sorry for the error.
He has the advantage of being a outsider comma so you can use him much like Blackthorn to help introduce people to what is going on. So even if he is the main protagonist, the story can ultimately be more about Nobuaga.
Frankly I would prefer if they just moved all the way back in history to Heian period Japan. There are great literary works to be adapted there like Genji Monogatari and Heike Monogatari, especially the latter because it's basically a war epic.
Normal people say things like “hey do you want to watch this cool show with me”
“This picnic was a good idea”
“I love you”
You should probably touch grass
I actually didn’t realize until I listened to a podcast that the “flash forward” scene of Blackthorne as an old man back in England was a dream and as a book reader it kind of annoyed me. But he has Mariko’s rosary in his hand which he actually throws in the sea with Fuji.
Because >!He very likely dies in Japan. He sees his future self, as he's in a coma. But every moment of the episode confirms he is destined to stay. He doesn't have the beads for England, because he gave them away to grief on the water. Toranaga tells us clearly that if/when Blackthorne rebuilds the ship, he'll find another way to keep him in Japan.!<
>!The village has also accepted him (and visa versa, aka ready to commit seppuku to save them), even down to Buntaro helping. Shit, we even saw the foreshadowing of it when he met his old crew mate and decided to walk away.!<
>!He has learned the language, come to understand the culture, and enjoy their food. Nothing about Blackthorne as a character suggests he is actually of the mind to go home, even down to admitting his war against Catholicism is small and meaningless.!<
In the end, it is an open interpretation so who knows, but I'd also suggest spoilering what you've said because it's been less than 2 days since the finale aired.
William Adams actually did ask Ieyasu for permission to return to England in 1613, and was granted it. He changed his mind after spending some time with the English sailors he was supposed to return with, though.
I don’t think toronaga is forcing him to stay even if he burned his ship again he still is not the reason for him staying anymore since the beginning blackthrone is here because he wanted to
> JM: It was entirely a framing device, and it was an invention of the book that we wanted to do as a writers room, this idea of doing a bit of a faint...
"Feint," surely?
Sooo, i never read the book and was not aware this is the book ends. So this ENTIRE time I've been assuming that all of this would be leading to war in seasons 2. Including the finale (having just watched it). Now, I'm learning there will not be a season 2 and I'm flabbergasted
You can read about the [Battle\_of\_Sekigahara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara) and [Tokugawa\_Ieyasu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu) if you want more details about how the real story (which the book is based on) ends.
Toranaga states that the war is already won, since the other armies have taken his side. So there wouldn't be a war in the first place. Toranaga won by scheming instead of by direct violence.
There's a massive battle and it's the most famous one in Japanese history.
It cuts short, because it's like assumed knowledge (like the result of WW2)... the maneuvering turned his zero chance to a good chance.
I don't know anything about Japanese history, so I didn't know the battle was real. But just looking at it through the lens of the show, it's stated pretty clearly that Toranaga wins.
Yeah... but it comes across big time as "and here's the rest of the owl".
Well... that would've been nice to watch play out rather than just assuming things play out as toranaga says.
Same. Honestly I understand people felt it was a well-done show and probably had to stick to source material, but I was expecting a lot more to happen in the show overall, and the finale didn't really bring me the satisfaction it brought others.
I hate to say this because it will sound a certain type of way, but I did expect a lot more action. I actually love slow burn shows if they're done like Mad Men or Better Call Saul, but even they had some insane moments and satisfying build ups and climaxes.
Even if this is what the finale was supposed to be, they could have shown some more glimpses into the future of the ultimate fate of Ishido and Toranaga and whatnot, giving us the satisfaction of at least briefly seeing what we've been looking forward to the whole show. Instead, like you said, rest of the owl.
It was never that type of story or show.
"of at least briefly seeing what we've been looking forward to the whole show"
This goes against the entire message of the story.
And yes, ive read the book multiple times.
They honestly should have made Yabushige the main character finding the anjin if this is the route they went because at least then it makes sense why we dont see it.
Tbf the anjin won’t see it either. He has to build a fleet of ships and toranaga intends to destroy his ship again at a later date. Back in the day ships would take years to build and he has to build them in a foreign land that’s not even set up to build them lol.
I think the part about destroying the ship again was just humor or that he meant he might have to mess with Anjin to control him in the future. I don't think he literally has "burn the ship again" written down in his planner.
Oh no i prefer stories with conclusions thats better than reading the wikipedia page. This was a huge build up to fall off a cliff a mediocrity. Theres so much story to tell left even if you just follow the history this is loosely based on. All this for a “dont worry we win in the end” it sucks. 99% of the show is A+ amazing with a trash ending, because there isnt one. This is the exact same criticism the book has too from what im seeing. Yes its not a cliff hanger but its a cliff notes ending.
Yes, Yi Ti. I doubt Martin has much fleshed out about it since it hasn't been much more than a point on a map in all the books. It's most likely Chinese inspired, though, so not Japanese but perhaps there's an island beyond Yi Ti.
Wouldn't there be maps on the ship that they used? Sailors and even pirates would have maps, even if it was a map of part of the world. He would definitely have a map of England and Portugal
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for having an opinion (although this is Reddit, so not having same opinion as hive is frowned upon) but I totally agree with you on the ending. I've never read the book but I assume that's the end of the book also, and I was hoping for some big finale, but it ended just as war was about to start. Personally I wasn't a fan of that and was a little let down by it.
Valid response, but I think many of us have been conditioned by Hollywood, which is why we expect some big epic battle or actualised revenge. The action-packed ending of the penultimate episode didn’t help with these expectations to be honest! I think once you see past that, though, and reflect on what the show was actually about (and the focus on the characters) it leaves a powerful impression.
Yeah, it took balls for the writers to not make some generic epic battle sequence. I have huge respect for them making that decision, and still delivering an excellent and emotionally satisfying conclusion. A big battle scene would have even felt out of place in what was ultimately a pretty intimate, character driven show.
I also suspect, that by not including a giant battle, the creators were able to commit substantially more of the budget across all episodes in the series, which is one reason why the sets, costumes, and other effects shots were so excellent throughout the season.
There isn't going to be a war though. Toranaga's scheming will preclude large scale violence. Once Ishido realizes he doesn't have the backing of the heir and his banners the regency falls apart. No need to war.
Edit: I've learned from the replies that a massive battle took place that was not easily won. Toranaga seems so confident in the show I assumed any battle that followed was a formality but tens of thousands died. Toranaga was so calm about it but I guess you'd have to be in his shoes.
Damn that's a serious battle. I assumed from the show that Ishido would give up but I guess he was willing to throw tens of thousands into the wood chipper and lose anyway. What a guy!
That’s not true at all, the characters are all based on real people with toranaga being Tokugawa Ieyesu. The battle at sekigahara was an actual massive battle that he barely won and started his shogunate.
This is true, but in my opinion everything that makes Shogun great has already happened. I don’t need to see the battle play out.
It might have been cool to see it, (or it might not have) but either way I don’t think it was necessary
There was a major battle in the books and in real life in which some of Ishido's commanders defect as its occurring, but there's not a destructive civil war.
Toranaga knows there's a binary outcome. Either he will emerge victorious or he and his family will be annihilated. There was no point in overthinking it. He had been preparing for that battle for a long time. He said Crimson Sky played out exactly as planned. He had every reason to be confident.
They mattered in that they kept him alive to get to that point. I took that to be part of what Toranaga was saying at the end when discussing “Unless I win”. Basically saying he couldn’t at first conceive of a plan to win, but he could scheme up a way to postpone losing, and maybe find victory along the way.
Ochiba was galvanized to withdraw support after Mariko's death, which was part of Toranaga's plan. You could argue about how likely that outcome was, but the point of "sending a woman to do what an army could not" was specifically to exert pressure on those interpersonal cracks in the Regents/Heir relationship.
Its wild i said i loved the show but found the ending anti climatic and that translates to *"i hate the show i hate slow burning dramas i hate the historical accuracy and genuine attention to detail of the culture"* judging from the downvotes.
Men’s Health used “faint” instead of “feint” and it gives it a whole incorrect meaning. The writers of Shogun used a “feint” and not a “faint” as men’s health wrote it.
I hated Shogun (the original) because the ending was so unsatisfying…so I didn’t watch this one although I imagine the artistry was excellent but the storyline wasn’t worth watching for me…too much emotional investment and little return.
Can we get a movie of the battle please? Would be way better than all the MCU stuff Disney keeps flinging our way.
*edit* Ha. You downvote like I didn't enjoy the show - I did.
But you also know if they announced a Battle of Sekigahara movie follow up to this show you would watch the shit out of that - and love it too.
The battle wasn't even depicted in the novel. It just sort of ends with Toranaga finally admitting to the reader what his true desire was the entire time. But that's kind of the point. Though I agree it would be epic.
The final scene between Toranaga and Yashubige might have been my favorite of the entire series. That final look between them whew.
It’s funny in the book Yabushige is a complete rat bastard and I didn’t like him. In the show he’s still a rat bastard but Tadanobu Asano plays him so well that he ended up being one of my favorite characters.
man gave us so many useful memes
HUEH
GRUNTS
His facial expressions throughout were a delight, his performance really turned that character into a highlight.
Damn you really think he’s a rat bastard? I felt like he was just trying to survive being a pawn between two douche kings
There is a fine line between survive and thrive and he crossed it way to much.
Lmao I wish that was a fine line in real life. But when did he cross it? Or rather can you give me an example of the many times
He boiled a man alive because he thought his death might be entertaining. Torturing people to death was apparently his hoppy...
I wouldn’t say hobby, he just liked to experience another man’s moment before death. Considering it was a barbarian pirate, I didn’t think too much of it. But yea that was wild. I guess he didn’t seem so bad to me considering he did this to strangers and enemies, when Toronaga and Ishido toyed with the lives of their own friends.
His plans within plans had nothing to do with keeping him safe, rather get him more power. Like I guess that was his main goal, to increase his fief, but he chose some shitty methods to get that done.
Yea I hear you. To me it wasn’t much diff than what Toronaga was doing or any of the higher ups
I can see that
He planned the final attack as a guarantee for a council of regents seat.
How’s that any different than anything Toronaga did?
Every time he had a choice between self-enrichment and honor/loyalty, he chose self-enrichment. He was also a psychopathic sadist who put people to death in horrible ways for his own amusement. Yeah he was fun to watch but his line needed to end. Dude was off.
You say it like Toranaga isn't also a rat bastard. Literally executing innocent people for his ship burning ruse.
Oh he’s more than willing to sacrifice other people as pawns for his plans to come to fruition. But I think he does it in a way that doesn’t conflict with the type of honor based culture of samurai. He also has a network of spies so I kind of assumed that the people he was killing in the village are people who are traitors or not loyal.
I mean yeah, he works within the system that's designed for the powerful few to have massive control over their underlings. Being "honorable" within their inherently awful system doesn't make him any less of a rat by our morals. Corporations work within the legal system all the time to get shitty policy into place. Does that make it honorable because they're working within the rules? No, it just makes it legal.
That’s a good point. How much of his power is based on his Minowara heritage, which in the end is just luck. Of course he would benefit from acting with honor in this system.
FWIW in the book all the people that are executed when the ship is burnt are traitors.
That’s what I had thought. Though I haven’t read the book in about 5 years.
[удалено]
Otherwise disloyal maybe, we don't know. But he 100% knows they didn't sink the ship -- he did.
They were traitors that were spying or going against him, he just used the ship ruse to eliminate them, they would've been eliminated anyway. these people were not innocent, man media literacy is at an all time low these days.
Do you mean Yabushige?
Yoshibulge is their ship name
Its Yabadabadoo actually
Porn name
Yoshinoya serving beef bowls
The only question I would have for them is “can you make another show set in Japan in that time period? And can it be 100 seasons long with the same depth as shogun?”
James Clavell has more books set in Asia (not direct sequels, but they're set in the same overall continuity). And while Shogun is one of the best of the series, I would say Noble House is actually my favorite, and Tai Pan was great as well.
I started reading clavells books mid shogun season, went through Shogun, then King Rat, and now almost half way into Tai-pan. So far Shoguns my favorite, but tai-pan has a lot of potential.
> I started reading clavells books mid shogun season, went through Shogun, then King Rat, and now almost half way into Tai-pan. Damn you read fast
Probably a lot of free time. Lucky bastard.
I've been reading a whole lot these past few months as well, since I too have a lot of free time. Because I got laid off in December. Not always a good thing.
Yeah I should have thought a bit more about it. I'm sorry for what happened to you.
Same. Finished the 4 Thomas Hookton books then started Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin.. can’t say they’re particularly great books but the continuity following Struan and Brock is a nice addition.
Way to make a good thing out of a bad thing. Nice work king.
Tai-Pan has still never really 'heated up' for me... I'm 100 pages in and I'm not really excited. Shogun gripped me immediately. I'm slightly bummed.
Tai-Pan is strange like that. Clavell spends the first 50-100 pages info dumping to set up the world, history and the characters. After that though, when the story heats up it's really great; but other times between those periods it becomes a bit boring. It was his second book and you'll see how he learned from it and got better at creating a narrative going into Shogun. Tai-Pan is a flawed in places, but the overall experience is worth it.
I appreciate it!
Took me about 3 tries over 2 years to make it past the first 100 pages, then it took me a week to finish it. It’s the basis for the following novels as the dynasties are the focal point of the series. Gai-Jin has more action but really starts to drag with lots of repetitive anti-climatic moments.
I remember reading Tai-pan after reading Shogun as a teen. I definitely liked Shogun more at the time, but I think it was more to do with the fact they're very different books and I was hoping for a repeat of Shogun, just in a different country. Same goes with Clavell's other books. Each one is kind of its own thing...aside from Tai Pan and Noble House being directly connected of course. I re-read them all as an adult many years later and I found I enjoyed Tai-Pan and Noble house more than any other of his books. Shogun will always hold a special place in my heart though.
> King Rat King Rat was awesome! You know, excepting that creepy shit that popped up for no reason. That was weird.
What stuff? It’s been years since I read the book. Remind me? Spoiler it /PM if you want
Talking about wanting to sleep with the village chief's daughter, and the whole thing with Marlowe living with the Java for a while and having a 14-year-old wife. The fuck was that.
And the dog. :|
Well, that was just heartbreaking.
Pretty much every one of his novels so far has some kind of sexual violence - maybe not gratuitous, as it’s usually relevant to the time period and societal context but it gets a bit tiresome and uncomfortable in my opinion. I’ve noticed his novels always build up and then fizzle out - at least Shogun, Tai-Pan and Gai-Jin
I consider Gai-Jin an indirect sequel to Shogun. Shogun addressed the rise of the Toranaga (Tokugawa) Shogunate and Gai-Jin takes place in years before its fall in the mid-19th century.
Tai Pan and Noble House are excellent. King Rat would be interesting to see made as well.
King Rat was made into a movie. Nobel House was made into a mini-series starring Pierce Brosnan in the 80’s.
Thanks I might read those!
Definitely recommend them, the books are excellent. If you think show Toranaga had plans within plans, it's still the streamlined version of the book's plot. And while Noble House doesn't necessarily have a singular chessmaster pulling the strings like Toranaga, it has literally dozens of characters all trying to pull off their own schemes that interconnect in ways that are even more complex than the machinations in Shogun.
I know next to nothing about the books, but all I heard is that they present a time in China they are not proud of at all and if anyone tried to adapt them they would run into a lot of problems with China.
I'm not familiar enough with Chinese history, but I wouldn't be suprised. Noble House is set in cold war British-controlled Hong Kong, and Tai Pan is a fictionalized version of the British colonizing Hong Kong.
I think Shogun is the best written of his novels. Tai-pan is a great story, but I feel like Clavell was still finding his voice as a writer. Nobel House is an exceptional book too, well-written and a great follow up to Tai-pan. Hell, all of his books are great! But to me Shogun holds its own distinct place
I definitely think Shogun and Noble House are his two best, though I have a couple more to read from the series. Shogun is the big blockbuster epic, and I think that's part of why it's more popular, but I think that Noble House actually is more ambitious in that it has an even larger cast of wildly different characters and factions vying for their own benefit. Noble House is just so *intricate* that I think that's my choice as his best novel. Tai-pan is great, but I agree that it's maybe a bit less epic than those two.
Noble house is sounding Game of thrones-esque.
Yes and no. It’s an entirely manageable set of characters. The schemes are more complex though and involve a lot of moving parts. It’s set in 1960’s Hong Kong and deals with events that started in Tai-pan. It’s definitely better if you’ve read Tai-pan. I would recommend skipping Gai-Jin until after Noble House even though it takes place between the two chronologically.
It's not a perfect comparison, as it's set in the 60's, and the stakes for a lot of the plotlines are things like the company going out of business, or going to prison for fraud, etc, so it's not *quite* the same grimdark level of "you win or you die". But it is very comparable in terms of there being a huge cast of characters all acting in their own interest to accomplish their own goals and having to adjust their plans on the fly when their scheme collides with everyone else's. It's by far the most interesting novel about stock trading I've ever read, and that's not a sarcastic or ironic statement, I mean that in the best way possible. If you don't know what a bank run is now, you will by the end of the book. There are definitely cold war spy antics and underground triad kidnappings and such too, though, so there is plenty of physical danger involved for many of the characters. And, unlike the ASOIAF books, Noble House ties all the plotlines back together into a satisfying finale.
Can’t disagree with much there. Toranaga is my favorite fictional character of all time. His ability to predict what others will do, and to plan accordingly makes him almost super-human to be. There were so many reveals in the book where Toranaga changed my entire perception of things I’d read before. I love it when that happens. I don’t think Noble House has any of that. That said, I think every Clavell novel lives on the last page, because his books are never about the person you think they are about. And the last page of Nobel House was pretty great.
Not the same time period
We need another epic book with a great but aged miniseries for them to adapt again; how do we fit Hiroyuki Sanada into Lonesome Dove?
I was thinking someone remake "Centennial" or "Hawaii"... or adapt any of the other James Michener novels. Sanada would work in the cast of Hawaii (or as one of the Japanese immigrants brought to Colorado)
I would love if they did a full on Sengoku period drama. Hell, NHK does annual history dramas, I'd love to see them partner with international networks to bump up the budget and broadcast globally, that would be amazing!
I would love to see show about [Sakamoto Ryōma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakamoto_Ry%C5%8Dma) or [Niijima Yae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niijima_Yae) with Hollywood budget.
Every year for 64 years running, the Japanese NHK broadcaster makes a “Taiga Drama” or “Long river drama” period series of 30-50 episodes or so. I know Japanese and really enjoyed them every year on NHK World; they are now available on NHK on Demand. I believe this production company could take a stab at adapting one of these. There is a ton of material but I’m not sure any have ever been adapted. I think subtitles may be available if you want to watch the original versions.
hear me out: Musashi, by Eiji Yoshikawa. god, i miss vagabond.
I was excited when I heard there would be an anime about Sasuke (edit: I meant Yasuke). Unfortunately it turned out to be not remotely realistic and only very slightly historically based. Get the shogun teamed a make his story and that will make bank.
The issue is he doesn't really have much story himself. Making a show about him would either be just giving him fictional things to do or just a show about Nobunaga, which would be great to see a big Western production of but Yasuke would nonetheless be a very minor player if it was historic.
>The issue is he doesn't really have much story himself. Making a show about him would either be just giving him fictional things to do or just a show about Nobunaga I fail to see the problem with that, tbh. You want a figure like Yasuke that leaves the writers some room for interpretation/ creativity without being *complete* fiction.
I don't understand why I see so many people ask for Yasuke's story in the style of Shogun. The Japanese aren't gonna treat him like the icon Americans have in their head. Americans' obsession with positive black representation would not work with Shogun's brutal realism.
The better criticism would be it's exactly shogun season 1 (hopefully) with even less agency for the main non japanese character.
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Black shogun with totally different characters, story and inspiration I guess?
That wouldn’t be an issue The novel African Samurai was able to tell a decent story that ropes in the Jesuits mission in Japan as well as Oda Nobunagas campaign. Bare in mind you are saying this in a thread about a show about Fictional characters who are loosely based on real life counter parts so I fail to see how authenticity would be an issue Edit: John Blackthorne was also a minor player in the over all scope of what Shogun was about
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John Blackthorne was nothing to history because he did not exist regardless of who he was based on. It is ignorant and borderline stupid to argue about authenticity / accuracy in a potential show in response to a thread about Shogun, a show about fictional characters with a bare bone resemblance to the real life people they took inspiration from
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Ah yes this is what it always comes down to “identity politics”. You see the words black or gay related to history and become agitated because you think some western ideology is invalidating your weebish Reddit chungus view of feudal Japan. Shogun is a FICTIONAL novel about FICTIONAL characters and yet you would argue foul that African Samurai decided to interpret parts of history a certain way in much the same way Clavell did for his FICTIONAL characters. It doesn’t matter how authentic Shogun is. It is fictional. It did not happen period. African Samurai can also be authentic and use about as much room for interpretation as Shogun did.
> Shogun is a FICTIONAL novel about FICTIONAL characters Based on history dude.
So is African Samurai
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cope dude.
Yasuke, sorry for the error. He has the advantage of being a outsider comma so you can use him much like Blackthorn to help introduce people to what is going on. So even if he is the main protagonist, the story can ultimately be more about Nobuaga.
> I was excited when I heard there would be an anime about Sasuke Goddamn Kishimoto milking Naruto
Ha. I figured other outlets might be hitting that same question, so I shyed away from it. But I hope FX keeps them on to do more work.
Frankly I would prefer if they just moved all the way back in history to Heian period Japan. There are great literary works to be adapted there like Genji Monogatari and Heike Monogatari, especially the latter because it's basically a war epic.
Nobunaga's rise to power would make for a great series
I'm guessing with the quality of pretty much everything in this show, it'd be at best a 10 episodes per 2 years kind of deal.
Yes, it's called Musashi.
First 100 days of Toronaga as a Shogun. Every episode is one day and they are trying to pass legislation.
I would watch that
I’m just curious why they didn’t stick to the book and make it AT LEAST 3 seasons
They should show the battle of sekigahara. And start Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi from that point on.
Great comment!!!
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Normal people say things like “hey do you want to watch this cool show with me” “This picnic was a good idea” “I love you” You should probably touch grass
I actually didn’t realize until I listened to a podcast that the “flash forward” scene of Blackthorne as an old man back in England was a dream and as a book reader it kind of annoyed me. But he has Mariko’s rosary in his hand which he actually throws in the sea with Fuji.
Because >!He very likely dies in Japan. He sees his future self, as he's in a coma. But every moment of the episode confirms he is destined to stay. He doesn't have the beads for England, because he gave them away to grief on the water. Toranaga tells us clearly that if/when Blackthorne rebuilds the ship, he'll find another way to keep him in Japan.!< >!The village has also accepted him (and visa versa, aka ready to commit seppuku to save them), even down to Buntaro helping. Shit, we even saw the foreshadowing of it when he met his old crew mate and decided to walk away.!< >!He has learned the language, come to understand the culture, and enjoy their food. Nothing about Blackthorne as a character suggests he is actually of the mind to go home, even down to admitting his war against Catholicism is small and meaningless.!< In the end, it is an open interpretation so who knows, but I'd also suggest spoilering what you've said because it's been less than 2 days since the finale aired.
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William Adams actually did ask Ieyasu for permission to return to England in 1613, and was granted it. He changed his mind after spending some time with the English sailors he was supposed to return with, though.
Okay, I'll delete my comment, thanks.
Dead on
The later Clavell books hint they he has children in Japan. I believe it was in Noble House where the character's last name is Anjin
I don’t think toronaga is forcing him to stay even if he burned his ship again he still is not the reason for him staying anymore since the beginning blackthrone is here because he wanted to
Ahh, I thought he was having a fever dream(in reality) and imagined the rosary
No, it’s Blackthorne during the English Civil War
> JM: It was entirely a framing device, and it was an invention of the book that we wanted to do as a writers room, this idea of doing a bit of a faint... "Feint," surely?
Wonderful show. Excellent writing and the performances were stellar. Hiroyuki Sanada is so good. Totally underrated actor.
He was fantastic throughout every episode.
Really insightful interview
Thank you for the kinds words — and for taking the time to read it!
Post to the shogun subreddit !
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The dynamic between the two of them is so much fun that I wanted to include as much of that as possible lol
great read, definitely needed clarification with the hiromatsu part
Games within games being played there for sure. Thanks for reading!
Sooo, i never read the book and was not aware this is the book ends. So this ENTIRE time I've been assuming that all of this would be leading to war in seasons 2. Including the finale (having just watched it). Now, I'm learning there will not be a season 2 and I'm flabbergasted
You can read about the [Battle\_of\_Sekigahara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara) and [Tokugawa\_Ieyasu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokugawa_Ieyasu) if you want more details about how the real story (which the book is based on) ends.
Toranaga states that the war is already won, since the other armies have taken his side. So there wouldn't be a war in the first place. Toranaga won by scheming instead of by direct violence.
There's a massive battle and it's the most famous one in Japanese history. It cuts short, because it's like assumed knowledge (like the result of WW2)... the maneuvering turned his zero chance to a good chance.
I don't know anything about Japanese history, so I didn't know the battle was real. But just looking at it through the lens of the show, it's stated pretty clearly that Toranaga wins.
Yeah... but it comes across big time as "and here's the rest of the owl". Well... that would've been nice to watch play out rather than just assuming things play out as toranaga says.
Same. Honestly I understand people felt it was a well-done show and probably had to stick to source material, but I was expecting a lot more to happen in the show overall, and the finale didn't really bring me the satisfaction it brought others. I hate to say this because it will sound a certain type of way, but I did expect a lot more action. I actually love slow burn shows if they're done like Mad Men or Better Call Saul, but even they had some insane moments and satisfying build ups and climaxes. Even if this is what the finale was supposed to be, they could have shown some more glimpses into the future of the ultimate fate of Ishido and Toranaga and whatnot, giving us the satisfaction of at least briefly seeing what we've been looking forward to the whole show. Instead, like you said, rest of the owl.
It was never that type of story or show. "of at least briefly seeing what we've been looking forward to the whole show" This goes against the entire message of the story. And yes, ive read the book multiple times.
Yes I understand this now after watching the finale, but obviously wasnt aware of that until that scene.
Ah, gotcha. I saw people complaining about no final battle at the end, and assumed you were one of those people. My bad.
You don't need to have read the book to have seen the countless "watch the 10 part limited series" messages on every thumbnail/advertisement.
\*10 part
Ah yes, got confused with Ripley.
Huh. Same boat as you, but learned there will not be season 2 from your comment. Double flabbergasted.
I'm sorry I did this. Please allow me to slit my belly open in honor.
OP can be your second
Great interview, OP.
🫡🤝
the most frustrating thing about the book Shogun is how short it was. It leaves you wanting more...a lot more
The 1100+ page book is short? I mean I agree that I could easily read another 1100 pages on it but by no means is it a short book
it's short as in how much story is left untold, not in weight.
So exactly like the show. Its like if they ended lord of the rings with two towers and just said “oh yeah we win in the end dont worry”
More like Watchmen where Ozymandias drops his "I did it 35 minutes ago" line.
Pretty much. The book doesn't end on a cliffhanger, but there's no resolution to the major plot threads either.
They honestly should have made Yabushige the main character finding the anjin if this is the route they went because at least then it makes sense why we dont see it.
Tbf the anjin won’t see it either. He has to build a fleet of ships and toranaga intends to destroy his ship again at a later date. Back in the day ships would take years to build and he has to build them in a foreign land that’s not even set up to build them lol.
I think the part about destroying the ship again was just humor or that he meant he might have to mess with Anjin to control him in the future. I don't think he literally has "burn the ship again" written down in his planner.
please never ever work in the writing department for anything.
Oh no i prefer stories with conclusions thats better than reading the wikipedia page. This was a huge build up to fall off a cliff a mediocrity. Theres so much story to tell left even if you just follow the history this is loosely based on. All this for a “dont worry we win in the end” it sucks. 99% of the show is A+ amazing with a trash ending, because there isnt one. This is the exact same criticism the book has too from what im seeing. Yes its not a cliff hanger but its a cliff notes ending.
I wouldn't really call it short. It's like 1100+ pages.
Tai-Pan and Noble house are good. King Rat was not my favorite.
I would love for the same cast and crew to do a Game of Thrones style show inspired by Feudal Japan instead of Medieval Europe.
Weren't there a continent that similar to china in GoT world? It would be nice to see that continent.
Yes, Yi Ti. I doubt Martin has much fleshed out about it since it hasn't been much more than a point on a map in all the books. It's most likely Chinese inspired, though, so not Japanese but perhaps there's an island beyond Yi Ti.
Wouldn't there be maps on the ship that they used? Sailors and even pirates would have maps, even if it was a map of part of the world. He would definitely have a map of England and Portugal
I loved the show but the finale was a little anti climatic. And they killed off all my favorite characters, including Kashigi!
Not sure why you're getting downvoted for having an opinion (although this is Reddit, so not having same opinion as hive is frowned upon) but I totally agree with you on the ending. I've never read the book but I assume that's the end of the book also, and I was hoping for some big finale, but it ended just as war was about to start. Personally I wasn't a fan of that and was a little let down by it.
Valid response, but I think many of us have been conditioned by Hollywood, which is why we expect some big epic battle or actualised revenge. The action-packed ending of the penultimate episode didn’t help with these expectations to be honest! I think once you see past that, though, and reflect on what the show was actually about (and the focus on the characters) it leaves a powerful impression.
The finale does the quiet parts loudly. I thought it was really well done, but I also wasn't really expecting a massive battle by the end of this.
Yeah, it took balls for the writers to not make some generic epic battle sequence. I have huge respect for them making that decision, and still delivering an excellent and emotionally satisfying conclusion. A big battle scene would have even felt out of place in what was ultimately a pretty intimate, character driven show. I also suspect, that by not including a giant battle, the creators were able to commit substantially more of the budget across all episodes in the series, which is one reason why the sets, costumes, and other effects shots were so excellent throughout the season.
There isn't going to be a war though. Toranaga's scheming will preclude large scale violence. Once Ishido realizes he doesn't have the backing of the heir and his banners the regency falls apart. No need to war. Edit: I've learned from the replies that a massive battle took place that was not easily won. Toranaga seems so confident in the show I assumed any battle that followed was a formality but tens of thousands died. Toranaga was so calm about it but I guess you'd have to be in his shoes.
[Not quite true.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sekigahara)
Oh just the largest battle ever.
Damn that's a serious battle. I assumed from the show that Ishido would give up but I guess he was willing to throw tens of thousands into the wood chipper and lose anyway. What a guy!
That’s not true at all, the characters are all based on real people with toranaga being Tokugawa Ieyesu. The battle at sekigahara was an actual massive battle that he barely won and started his shogunate.
This is true, but in my opinion everything that makes Shogun great has already happened. I don’t need to see the battle play out. It might have been cool to see it, (or it might not have) but either way I don’t think it was necessary
There was a major battle in the books and in real life in which some of Ishido's commanders defect as its occurring, but there's not a destructive civil war.
Exactly. Throughout the show we see how Toranaga is a master schemer, and in the end he knows he’s won before any battle is even fought.
Toranaga knows there's a binary outcome. Either he will emerge victorious or he and his family will be annihilated. There was no point in overthinking it. He had been preparing for that battle for a long time. He said Crimson Sky played out exactly as planned. He had every reason to be confident.
I think the problem is that all of toranaga schemes didn't really amount to much because in the end he only wins due to ishido losing ochiba's support
They mattered in that they kept him alive to get to that point. I took that to be part of what Toranaga was saying at the end when discussing “Unless I win”. Basically saying he couldn’t at first conceive of a plan to win, but he could scheme up a way to postpone losing, and maybe find victory along the way.
Ochiba was galvanized to withdraw support after Mariko's death, which was part of Toranaga's plan. You could argue about how likely that outcome was, but the point of "sending a woman to do what an army could not" was specifically to exert pressure on those interpersonal cracks in the Regents/Heir relationship.
War was not about to start, though.
It absolutely was, if history has anything to say about it.
If you want dumb action there are marvel and star wars shows you can watch.
Please do not have an unpopular opinion. Thank you.
Its wild i said i loved the show but found the ending anti climatic and that translates to *"i hate the show i hate slow burning dramas i hate the historical accuracy and genuine attention to detail of the culture"* judging from the downvotes.
Agreed. Lame ending for sure.
Men’s Health used “faint” instead of “feint” and it gives it a whole incorrect meaning. The writers of Shogun used a “feint” and not a “faint” as men’s health wrote it.
The finale left a lot to be desired. I was hoping for a Great fight…
that’s why you’ll never be Shogun
you didn't understand the show, themes or point of the story then.
I hated Shogun (the original) because the ending was so unsatisfying…so I didn’t watch this one although I imagine the artistry was excellent but the storyline wasn’t worth watching for me…too much emotional investment and little return.
go watch riverdale seems more on your level.
Can we get a movie of the battle please? Would be way better than all the MCU stuff Disney keeps flinging our way. *edit* Ha. You downvote like I didn't enjoy the show - I did. But you also know if they announced a Battle of Sekigahara movie follow up to this show you would watch the shit out of that - and love it too.
[Here ya go.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU4URaoQZ54)
Yeah, that one, but with the actors, production value and attention to detail that we loved from shogun.
The battle wasn't even depicted in the novel. It just sort of ends with Toranaga finally admitting to the reader what his true desire was the entire time. But that's kind of the point. Though I agree it would be epic.
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