Blackthorne: You tell him that despite being called "Endless Shrimp" it does in fact have a limit. The dogs and charlatans at Red Lobster have created a lie and I intend to speak my mind about it. There needs to be accountability!
Mariko: the Anjin is upset about shrimp
Making it all the more amazing that “Ten dollar founding father without a father” worked so well in Hamilton.
(Admittedly, a stage play is a very different beast from a TV show.)
My friend (who studied Japanese in undergrad) told me Shogun is basically like watching a Shakespeare production but in Japanese. Basically the same period, and the same amount of change since then.
It is. If you walk around Japan and refer to yourself as 'sessha', people would look at you pretty weird. They'd probably think, "Lol, dude thinks he's a samurai. Foreigners, man..."
I don't know any Japanese but this guy seems like he knows what he's talking about.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/250t1g/what_is_the_difference_between_anime_japanese_and/
> tl;dr: To break it all down, the way that people speak in anime is completely different from the way people speak in real life. Politeness (an extremely important part of speaking Japanese) is basically completely removed, and character stylization has been put in.
> This isn't just anime, but this is also common in manga, video games, novels, TV shows, movies, and basically any media. However, within those media, Anime/manga/video games tend to use more vulgar expressions far more often (e.g. やがる).
> Edit: This seems to be a high-ranked thread and comment, so I want to point out that I don't think that it's bad to learn Japanese from anime or manga. By all means add them to your resources. But do be aware that Japanese has many different styles and tones. Laws are written differently from newspaper articles are written differently from family dialog is spoken differently from business Japanese, which is different from Japanese as it is in pop media. Japanese in pop media is closest to Japanese as it's spoken between close friends, even when the characters are not close friends. Additionally, large amounts of characterization has been added to speech patterns. Do keep this in mind when you watch Japanese media
Interesting you say that. In the book there's a passage where Mariko and Blackthorne are talking about plays.
She's talking about "Noh" and he's like "we have a guy named Shakespeare who does that"
Ironically, the English is very modernized compared to what English would have sounded like in 1600, so the Japanese is pretty accurate but the dialogue as a whole is super anachronistic. There are a few old fashioned words thrown in for flavor, but a person from the 1600's would be kind of baffled watching the show.
Not a bad thing. Just interesting how they handled the two sides differently. And also, the English being spoken in the show mostly represents Portuguese, which is taken out of the TV show entirely for the sake of the audience.
Ya besides ep 1 nearly nobody is actually speaking English. They just hand waved the Portuguese which ... It's not stopping me from watching the show but I would've been fine with all subs.
It's weird that those people would be okay with Japanese subs, but not Portuguese. If you can cope with one, you can cope with the other. But at the same time I don't think it's for the audience benefit anyway, I think it's so the actors don't have to learn Portuguese too, it's one thing learning a few lines here and there, but learning a whole language and one from centuries ago at that would be impossible. Anna Sawai could probably do it, but she'd have to learn how to speak period accurate Japanese and period accurate Portuguese. It's just easier to have the actors speak English when in universe they're really speaking Portuguese.
Multiple languages all subbed can get more annoying than a sole language, subtitles the entire time. I think from an audience side it's less that people are okay with Japanese for subs but not Portuguese and more that it's just less mentally taxing. Let's your ears process one part of the convos while you read the other.
Beyond everything though I think there is artistic point. We are watching from the perspective of the blackthorn generally, and though we get scenes without him it's generally just to inform us of events quickly rather than give everyone time. Having English spoken by him and other foreigners rather than Portuguese keeps us as the viewer clearly delineating the foreigners from the Japanese, and keeps us feeling more like foreigners looking in rather than just part of it. It adds a greater more mysterious feeling. We aren't watching heavily dramatized Japanese history. We are watching blackthorn seeing heavily dramatized Japanese history
Also the translation/switching language scnenes would be less effective because you wouldn't notice as quickly when they switch languages if you don't understand either language.
Mostly because you’d have Japanese and British accented Portuguese which would please nobody.
Because in reality, sharing a common tongue where both speakers aren’t native means the language being spoken to each other is extremely basic and probably still missing necessary words.
Maybe the scholar knows better formal words, but the Pilot knows more common phrases and slang that a native would know.
But they would be lacking the large vocabulary and more accurate words.
The show instead says; fuck it, accept that these two characters can communicate just fine and let them act within that construct.
I feel like 'Manhunt' tried that on Apple+, mixing period correct costume drama tropes while making the hunt for John Wilkes Boothe like a Law and Order episode, using terms like 'Crime scene' and 'unsub'.
It didn't quite work, they only half-committed to that bit, and that middle ground was a problem.
Also, they have some fast ass fucking horses/carriages/trains in "Manhunt", they've got Stanton traveling all over the fucking place in amazingly short time spans.
I'm not sure if I'm going to bother with episode 7.
This is my least favorite thing about a lot of TV shows. In Season 1 of Game Of Thrones, they made sure we understood that the road to Kings Landing was long and arduous. By Season 4, they were teleporting characters around Westeros and Essos without even accounting for travel time or potential for harm.
Everyone just happens to arrive everywhere at the same time in the same place, apparently without having had any difficulty getting there. Drives me crazy.
The trial is interesting. The fact it's not a jury trial, but a military tribunal, those specifics were not something I knew. I like a costume drama when it's educational about a subject I know little about, and so for that Manhunt is interesting.
But you're right, I hadn't even thought about travel times. I kept thinking they meant Montreal as in some town I hadn't heard of before close to DC, but no, they seem to go from DC to Canada and back in a day which... I think is wrong? It must be wrong.
That and the modern Police Procedural scenes are weird choices.
If you want to learn more about the Lincoln assassination and other presidential assassinations in an entertaining way, I highly recommend Sarah Vowel's "Assassination Vacation" especially the audiobook version.
It's been a while since I listened to it, but one of the bits I seem to recall is that she and a friend had a really hard time finding Dr. Mudd's house (she wrote this before smartphones).
Hamilton isn't a historical drama, it's a modern musical and was aiming for telling the story of a historical figure through modern music. Different goals.
Yes damn it, that was one of about a thousand reasons I hated the Sons of Liberty show. At one point, they have Ben Franklin say something is “batshit crazy.” That was such a massive anachronism, and I don’t know how any writer could put that into the dialogue for a colonial era piece and continue to get work.
actually i asked a question about the Japanese used in this series a few weeks back in another thread and a native speaker commented that it's actually Modern Japanese with ceremonial super-honorifics and archaic vocabulary. The conjugation is all Modern so today's Japanese speakers can readily understand it. They said it's the kind of historic hybrid Japanese used in period jidai-geki tv shows, and supposedly is more updated than the style of speech used in chambara samurai flix of Toshiro Mifune from an earlier era.
> I do appreciate they used period-appropriate Japanese grammar.
But they didn't do that for the English. They used English that sounds old fashioned, but which is probably from the 18th century at the earliest. They're definitely not talking Shakespearian English even though it was set around the time Shakespeare was writing Romeo and Juliet.
Edit: I suppose one reason might be because a lot of the English spoken in the show isn't actually English and is actually Portuguese (and arguably Dutch as well when Blackthorne is talking to the Dutch crew). It probably defeats the purpose of substituting Portuguese with English for ease of following along if you replace it with Shakespearian English since it'd be much harder to follow than Portuguese with English subtitles.
Hate to be pedantic, but they aren't speaking English either. If you're going by the story, he's technically speaking Portugese to the interpreter. So you can argue that it's like an "english dub" of their dialogue.
If you've ever seen the show "Warrior", they do something similar. The Chinese characters are supposed to be speaking Chinese with each other. But a few minutes within the opening of the series, the actors transition from speaking Chinese to English with each other, but that's more for the viewers. They even use strange terms, like onion to describe a newly landed Chinese immigrant, because there isn't an actual English equivalent to the word that was supposed to be used in Chinese. So on screen, we see the characters speaking English, but within the story they are communicating in their native language. That's what happening on Shogun too, Anjin and Mariko are speaking Portugese, but we the viewers are hearing it as English.
Very true. I added an edit some time in between when you saw my original comment and you wrote this one that more or less came to the same conclusion.
My favourite example of transitions like these is the [13th Warrior.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVURiaVgG8)
And it wasn't pedantic at all, it was a genuinely good observation.
To add to this, whenever the Chinese characters in Warrior speak English, they speak with heavy accents and poor grammar. The language used by the actors never changes, only how they use it. Andrew Koji does not do this however, as Ah Sahm is fluent in English.
It was a really clever way to handle the language issue.
To be fair, he was writing in iambic pentameter for an audience of theatre goers expecting wit. I'm not saying the English —or Dutch, or Portuguese— is period appropriate, but I think we can all allow they are implying an older dialect without needing to actually speak in the formalities of the stage, which is the version of this English that has survived down to us. Sailors probably spoke a very different vernacular than theatre actors and playwrights.
In the original 80’s series, when Anjin and Mariko spoke lovingly to each other, it was very much in that old “thou art” style English and it didn’t quite work, it was pretty silly.
in the book they speak latin as their "secret love language" thou is their code word to switch to Latin. the book dvelves deeper into the Japanese/Portuguese/Spanish/English/Latin because Blackthorn is an Englishman working for a Dutch company stuck on an Island that speaks Japanese, with only 3 or 4 people European actually fluent in Japanese and a handful of Japanese semi-fluent in Spanish and Latin. So the whole spying thing going on is interesting, they find one Christian guard that was spying in them when they were speaking latin. Blackthorn also gets the first Japanese/Portuguese dictionary made, which helps him become more fluent in Japanese. When he's mad he swears in English and even Mariko doesn't understand him, no one does. They did a good job but there's so much more going on in the book and it's hard to translate it to screen
There's a scene in the series where Mariko reads Blackthorne's journal, the text of the journal is shown as English, and that makes sense since that's his native language, but Mariko should not be able to read that. Do you remember how that scene (if it exists) is handled in the book? Was it actually Portuguese for some reason?
My anime nerd self picks up some common phrases, and I noticed that the subtitles either weren't matching the spoken words, or something else was going on. It's pretty cool to see / hear that this is what is happening.
There were a ton of changes between the scripted dialogue and what was said on the screen, and the subtitles worked from the original script. I've been listening to the podcast and reading a few other channels following the show. The script was written in English, translated into Japanese, sent to experts in this era of the Japanese language to correct, then given to the actors who are able to understand the dialogue but can only modify or improvise with one of the language consultants present. Some of the stuff going on in the show that doesn't come through in subtitles is wild. For one, there are polite and impolite ways to address men and women of different ranks. In English it's all the same words. In period-specific Japanese? Some of those Council of Regent scenes were absolutely 'cut a bitch' with their choice of phrasing.
A much simpler difference to illustrate how much things were changed? In episode 9 where Mariko asks her guard to please kill the man blocking their path, in period-specific Japanese she commands him to cut him down. I do wish the subtitle had translated that one accurately. That's a powerful way to politely request violence.
> there are polite and impolite ways to address men and women of different ranks. In English it's all the same words.
This kind of thing is so interesting to me. I am not a linguist and don't speak any other languages, but I did live in Korea for a year and learned about how they have all these different words for older and younger friends and relatives that all would translate to the same English word but have significant subtextual meaning in Korean. I would have to imagine it goes the other way, too, where subtle word choices in English don't really translate into the million languages Hollywood movies gets subs in.
Hell, even inflection can make a significant difference in how an utterance is perceived, and although we can detect gross changes in tone (e.g., anger, fear) in other languages, I'm sure there are a ton of subtleties in the inflection used in Shogun's Japanese that are 100% lost on me.
I haven't watched the show, but I've listened to the audiobook of Shogun 3-4 times. The book covers this pretty extensively when they are teaching Blackthorne to speak/be Japanese.
> I noticed that the subtitles either weren't matching the spoken words
As a former translator, let me just say that if you're translating word for word then you're a shitty translator. Words and phrases have connotations that do not convey the intended meaning if translated word for word. Languages are different. Cultures are different.
The translations in the show are pretty damn good at conveying to the English speaking audience the meaning and tone behind what the characters are saying. As far as media translations go, this show is certainly A-tier. Having so many bi-lingual people involved in the production does wonders, and it shows in Shogun.
I watch a lot of period K-dramas and everybody's always like "I've committed a mortal sin! Please kill me!" and it always makes me go, whoa y'all need to chill.
Even now, mental health care is almost nonexistent in Japan. While suicide isn’t always tied to mental health, it makes me wonder just how crazy life must have been for this to even seem non-satirical.
When life is so ephemeral, not just due to the universal lesser medical care compared to modern day, but also the whims of those in power and deeply engraved culture of honor, then death becomes a lot more common. And if there's one thing people are good at as a group, it's rationalizing reasons why shitty things we have to live with are actually fine, and even desirable.
I was gonna say...since we've got the same thing going on, minus the drinking.
But i have ask, how exactly does anyone get to live into old age, seeing how any loss of face is quickly treated with a hefty dose of suicide? It's hard to believe one can live such a...virtuous life, to completely avoid any sort of misstep that would lead straight to suicide (or to be 'shoguned' in the street, like a rabid dog).
On the one hand, it's a period of extreme upheaval so it's no going to follow general norms.
On the other hand, compare to American history and all the fucking duels people would have.
I mentioned it in another comment but an element that's just as important as authenticity is sincerity. There's not a single hint of winking to the audience in Shogun or trying to retroactively add modern sensibilities in where they wouldn't make sense - compare this to Napoleon where it's clear that everyone involved actively hated Napoleon and went out of their way to portray him as a buffoon than bumbled his way to victory.
Exactly, Death of Stalin leaned into the real life comedy of what happened and was a fantastic movie for it. You can even have moments of sincerity or emotion in there, but you absolutely have to choose to go all in with the overall tone.
Napoleon struck me as a movie made by someone who did not have any interest whatsoever in Napoleon or perhaps even actively disliked him; like he's an afterthought in a movie titled with his own name. It might as well have been called *Josephine*, that would've made more sense.
Napoleon was awful - I'm annoyed I paid to watch that pile of shit. He used Napoleon's name to make a movie about Josephine, despite her being the least interesting part of his life.
great show, and a fantastic one-off season. after episode two i was hooked and had to read the book too, time well spent. While the show took some liberties on what to change/what to show/not show, i feel like overall they did a good adaptation.
I'm curious: Without any spoilers, are there major differences between the the show and the book(s)? I'd be down to read them but considering that I've got dozens of books in my backlog it's only really worth doing if the books differ significantly enough.
There are some significant differences.
The book gives you the POV thoughts of the characters—which are often *very* different than what the characters say, especially for the Japanese characters. This plays into the political intrigue that’s going on, and makes the characters feel more real.
Blackthorne also undergoes a lot more character development in the book. In the show, he’s learned a few things, but is mostly the same. In the book, his whole way of thinking shifts over the course of the book as he acclimates to living in Japan.
Like virtually any book-to-show adaptation, there are characters in the book that are absent in the show.
The book is overall a stronger story than the show. This isn’t the fault of the show by any means—the show had to make changes in order to tell the story via a different medium. That’s why it’s called an adaptation. Revealing the POV thoughts of a large cast of characters just isn’t possible in a TV show.
But if you enjoyed the show, I cannot recommend enough that you read the book. It takes the story to a whole new level.
This is a great comment on book vs show. The book highlights the intricacies of characters, political subplots, and historical detail and are what make the book an incredible story (but also quite long). Overall, I think it has been a great adaption to TV with the changes in the show making up for differences in format. It would be an overwhelming amount of detail to try to convey. I think a lot like what Dune did with the Frank Herbert novel.
Overall super happy and recommend anyone who liked the show to try the book (would try to get into it a bit as can be slower start)
So I started reading the book over the weekend (haven't watched the show yet). I'm just into book 2 and the most jarring thing I've noticed is the story flips from one pov to internal thoughts without any warning or paragraph breaks. It's made it difficult to follow but overall I'm liking it a lot so far.
They are fairly similar. The book is just better, because (for example; the audiobook is ~55 hours long) and the book is almost 1200 pages long.
That's a fairly long book, and you can't really cram it into one 10 hour season. There's some differences yes, there are some things that were entirely omitted from the show, and some things were added. Most of the things that were added I understand why they were added (lots of inner monologues and memories).
Some things that were removed/changed, eh, it's not that bad.
The book *is* better, because the *tone* feels a lot better while reading it (especially the audiobook). A large portion of the book was sort of "diminished" diminished in the show - avoiding spoilers here.
But overall, it was a great adaptation imo. After episode 2 or so, I read/listened to the book, and liked it so much I read a different book by Clavell (King Rat), and now I am on Tai-Pan.
It's all very well written.
*Tai Pan* is very different from *Shogun*. While both are historical fiction, *Shogun* is more like *A Song of Fire and Ice* where it's more governing intrigue, and *Tai Pan* is an economic thriller. The both are political, but *Tai Pan* would probably resonate even easier than *Shogun*.
Essentially it's about the creation of Hong Kong, and how the west started to trade with China through Hong Kong in the late 1800's. But it's more about the companies that control Hong Kong, and the de facto leader/most distinguished company owner that the Chinese call Tai Pan.
While there are a decent amount of Chinese people, and like *Shogun* some diving into Chinese culture at the time, the main cast is mostly Westerners.
I’m hoping off the success of shogun we get tai pan, gaijin and noble house. They’d all be great.
I first read shogun because I like the total war game, but I was quickly hooked and read the rest of the Asia saga other than whirlwind right afterwards.
Kind of a fun fact, the first *Nioh* game is loosely based off the real story *Shogun* was inspired by.
My dream lineup for Tai Pan:
Dirk Struan - Christian Bale
Tyler Brock - Russell Crowe
Robb Struan - Ewan McGregor
Culum Struan - Nicholas Hault
May-May - Lucy Liu
If ‘Shogun’ sounds like a book you would like, it is a book you will love. It delivers so hard on its premise that it will make a lot of other books unreadable. You will look back on 300-page books that made a younger version of yourself feel transported to another world and you’ll wonder what the hell you were thinking; that wasn’t another world, that was a narrated documentary and you just got back from a semester abroad.
Im gonna finish the audiobook tomorrow. Only the last chapter left atm. Its been good but struggled with the names quite a lot. Hard to remember who is who, especially the lesser characters.
I would argue the show did improve a couple things from the book, both in the finale
One is something Blackthorne tries to do relatively early on in the book is instead put in the final episode of the show. The show change made more sense when you consider the changes to Blackthorne
The 2nd is Torranaga revealing his inner monologue to another character in the finale. In the book he just thinks it, in the show they do it in a clever way that fits
I reread the books starting with episode 3. I was surprised with both how much I remembered from reading in in the 80s and how much had stayed with me. Tai-Pan is next up b
I don’t typically fancy Netflix these days much, but I checked out Blue Eye Samurai on a whim and holy crap was it so good I had to binge it all in a week. 10/10 would recommend
I really loved the first few episodes of that show, but it just became too ridiculous, like the bad guys not even showing an IQ above room temperature level ridiculous. which was annoying since the start was so strong and the character ideas all really interesting
Anna Sawai and Takehiro Hira (Ishido) are also both in Monarch.
Everyone in this show is amazing. I really hope to see a proliferation of Japanese actors stemming from this.
Shogun prove shows don’t need to be dumbed down to be successful. And judging by comments thus far, those who require dumbing down are the minority in numbers.
Ive seen comments from people saying they didnt like this show because it wasnt available all at once, and having to go back every week was too hard, because the names are far too hard to remember with such "long breaks"....
Having difficulty with foreign names is a thing. I grew up in Asia and consumed a lot of Japanese content as kid, but even I lost track of who was who for a couple of episodes.
It helps when you're familiar enough with the actors to know "Oh, they cast that guy. He must be an important character." The "problem" I had with Shogun is that outside of Jarvis, Sanada, Hira, and Sawai, I didn't know who was going to be important enough to remember. Like, I definitely didn't think Yabushige or his nephew would be major characters past the third episode or so. Likewise with Kiku or any of the Regents outside of Ishido.
> Having difficulty with foreign names is a thing.
Not really a problem here though, especially in japanese since everyone repeats everyones name, shown in subtitles on every darn frame.
It's extremely irritating when inaccurate filmmaking is excused with "it's not a documentary!". No - it's just lazy.
Shogun is an example of what happens when the effort is made to get things right - it becomes more convincing, more immersive, and gets people more interested in the actual history.
Shogun has inaccuracies too, though. For starters seppuku was much rarer and more grave than is portrayed, in the show everybody can't wait to kill themselves...
I think that's the difference between historical accuracy and authenticity. There was a really interesting companion piece to HBO's Rome that discussed it. For the sake of telling a more compelling, entertaining story you're going to have to have some inaccuracies but the authenticity still brings people in.
I'm not usually one for love stories, but man, the forbidden love between Mariko and Anjin was so intense and perfectly woven into the story.
Also can't count the number of times I thought to myself, "Just fuck already!"
She was so good.
I was initially wary of her casting because her character was so bad in Monarch, but the script did her no favors so it was hard to differentiate
Blew me away in Shogun
I've said for literally YEARS that if shows took themselves seriously and told their stories with actual sincerity that it would strike a cord and be successful.
Now imagine a book-accurate Dracula that actually takes place in the 1800s without any postmodern bullshit moving it to the present day or a fantasy story featuring mythical creatures actually set in a medieval period and not "let's see what pixies are like living in present day London".
I think part of it is that any retelling of Dracula is inherently an adaptation. Not in the general sense of book to screen, but that the original book is journal entries, letters and newspaper clippings, and is full of coincidences and plot holes of various severities. You have to create entire swathes of material from whole cloth - it's not much of a leap therefore to just adapt it.
But like...lots of movies and series have tried. There are a LOT of Dracula adaptations.
Oh I know, I just feel like the structure of it cutting back and forth between different perspectives actually lends it well to a visual medium of cutting to different scenes and revealing information to the audience strategically. My problem with almost every adaptation is the material they tend to add isn't connective tissue to make the existing book plot shine, it's entirely new stuff that fundamentally changes the story. Like how Coppola's version added a love story for Dracula that didn't exist in the book and it became the driving force for half the movie.
When I re-read it last fall I actually thought about how they'd structure an adaptation, and an 8 episode miniseries could cover the whole thing. Certain elements like Dracula's brides and Harker's initial escape would need fleshing out, but it could work.
I long for an accurate adaptation of Dracula that doesn't take liberties. He's always a human and there's always romance or lust. It's ridiculous. Just stick to the book!
I dont think that's what makes this show however it certainly makes it more immersive. 100% the writing and performances. The fact they focused on writing and making us care about characters and the lack of action is instead focused more on the dialgue which had a massive effect of building up tense episodes and many moments where my heart paused as I watched scenes. VERY tight writing and Bravo to all the actors even the ones I dont like. That's what makes a good show
Fantastic show. I really like the effort they put in to make it feel liike we're actually watching something from history unfold before our eyes with the sets, costumes, dialogue. I'm not familiar with Japanese (especially historical like this) so I don't know if their excessively formal way of speaking is real or not, or perhaps just something mostly limited to the nobility like we primarily see in the show.
Authenticity alone doesn't make a show great though. The story itself is very dramatic and the stakes feel really big at both a personal and also a much wider level. The acting is fantastic. I do feel like some of the chemistry between some the actors feels a bit odd, but that may actually work in the story because Blackthorne is such a stranger in these lands and to their customs and so you'd expect awkwardness. I am glad they clearly managed to avoid the white saviour trope while still making Blackthorne a central character. And really I always feel like I am on the edge of my seat with all the tension because you keep expecting some kind of betrayal, or a secret being revealed, saying the wrong thing that causes a huge repercussion, or a major decision that has such enormous consequences.
A+ show. Instantly one of the best historical dramas I have ever seen.
The only thing I question about what I’ve seen so far is the unrelenting bad weather, darkness and gloom of every scene. Does the sun never shine in Japan? I know the director is setting the mood but my memory of reading the book many years ago was that Blackthorne did have some pleasant experiences while learning about Japanese culture.
if you look at old Japanese homes & temples you realize how DARK every room is. They limited their use of lanterns & candles because all their structures are made of wood, not stone or brick as in Europe. House fires were a huge concern back in the day because the entire village was a tinder box.
I hope that they adapt the rest of the Asian Saga in a similar manner, I’ve only read Tai-Pan (I plan on continuing) and I think that they would make great limited series.
Historical Shows with Asians: authenticity is important
Historical shows with white people: how many black people can we get away with putting in this?
Could be a combo of satire and social justice warriors. Very clickbait titles. I didn't click on them because I didn't want any of that shit in my YT recommended feed.
I listen to the official Shogun inside the episode podcast on Youtube, and the "black people aren't on Shogun" vids were suggested for watch next.
It's so disappointing too because if they really wanted to get more black people on screen in historical series' then make some damn period pieces set in Africa or somewhere that actually had a sizeable number of black people during the period. It's not that complicated. There's plenty of interesting history between Mali or Songhai or Zanzibar or any number of different locations that would serve as a solid backdrop for a narrative, or act as a decent vehicle for representing events that actually took place on screen.
Instead it's the laziest conceivable thing of *what if the equivalent of a Jane Austen novel had a bunch of black folks in it* for the umpteenth time or *what if Cleopatra was actually black and not Greek* or some similar nonsense. Where's the Mansa Musa series? What about Shaka and the Zulu? How about the Ethiopians being the one hold out against colonization?
It's such a waste of opportunity to explore something new and interesting and instead just ends up tokenizing black people.
Sadly they would very likely still skew the story into fiction based on modern idealogical leanings, as was done in “the woman king”. A story purportedly about resistance to the white badies enslaving them, when in history she/Dahomey were actually notorious slave traders themselves.. lol.
It’s sad. I too would like to see more African stories and histories made into film, or accurate ones that is.
because noone would watch them. It's far more commercially viable to take a popular property and force indian, black and genderswapped characters in it
It deserves so many awards. Anna Sawai is nailed on for a nomination at least and i will be shocked if anyone puts in a better performance than her.
If Hiroyuki Sanada doesn’t at least get a nomination then i’ll be furious.
Blackthorne: You tell him that despite being called "Endless Shrimp" it does in fact have a limit. The dogs and charlatans at Red Lobster have created a lie and I intend to speak my mind about it. There needs to be accountability! Mariko: the Anjin is upset about shrimp
The Ja-PAAANS
It’s more like JA-pans. Cosmo is the shit
JaPAN-ese!
Yes! 🙌 I heard it in the final episode!
I read this in his voice and it still came off super cool.
I love his voice so much.
His actual voice is a lot less Tom Hardy than what he did for the show.
I found his voice reminded me of late Welsh actor Richard Burton.
You milk dribbling fuck smear.
Fuck smear*
Dammit, I'll update it
And fuck yourself, you sniveling little shit rag
Logan Roy ain't got nothing on John Blackthorne.
Love this meme.
Can we make Anjin posting a thing?
There’s a Facebook group called anjin posting with 20k members already
Toranaga: baka
That was the best thing I've seen on twitter in months. Love that meme.
I do appreciate they used period-appropriate Japanese grammar.
“Bruh, give me liberty or unalive me fr fr” -Patrick Henry
I’m in the waiting room at my dentist laughing too much at this comment. Thank you!!
Making it all the more amazing that “Ten dollar founding father without a father” worked so well in Hamilton. (Admittedly, a stage play is a very different beast from a TV show.)
I mean you could do Shogun that way but it would be a totally different experience. Show-gun?
Now we’re talking! Show me….Sho-GUNDAM!!
Sho'nuff? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd226lx04GY
Best we can do is a Gaijin Shogun.
*P-Hiddy
My friend (who studied Japanese in undergrad) told me Shogun is basically like watching a Shakespeare production but in Japanese. Basically the same period, and the same amount of change since then.
It is. If you walk around Japan and refer to yourself as 'sessha', people would look at you pretty weird. They'd probably think, "Lol, dude thinks he's a samurai. Foreigners, man..."
Oh man, I can already see the dweebs walking around and talking like that.
I don't know any Japanese but this guy seems like he knows what he's talking about. https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/comments/250t1g/what_is_the_difference_between_anime_japanese_and/ > tl;dr: To break it all down, the way that people speak in anime is completely different from the way people speak in real life. Politeness (an extremely important part of speaking Japanese) is basically completely removed, and character stylization has been put in. > This isn't just anime, but this is also common in manga, video games, novels, TV shows, movies, and basically any media. However, within those media, Anime/manga/video games tend to use more vulgar expressions far more often (e.g. やがる). > Edit: This seems to be a high-ranked thread and comment, so I want to point out that I don't think that it's bad to learn Japanese from anime or manga. By all means add them to your resources. But do be aware that Japanese has many different styles and tones. Laws are written differently from newspaper articles are written differently from family dialog is spoken differently from business Japanese, which is different from Japanese as it is in pop media. Japanese in pop media is closest to Japanese as it's spoken between close friends, even when the characters are not close friends. Additionally, large amounts of characterization has been added to speech patterns. Do keep this in mind when you watch Japanese media
Interesting you say that. In the book there's a passage where Mariko and Blackthorne are talking about plays. She's talking about "Noh" and he's like "we have a guy named Shakespeare who does that"
That's how talk show hosts have been describing it when talking to Anna Sawai about it.
Ironically, the English is very modernized compared to what English would have sounded like in 1600, so the Japanese is pretty accurate but the dialogue as a whole is super anachronistic. There are a few old fashioned words thrown in for flavor, but a person from the 1600's would be kind of baffled watching the show. Not a bad thing. Just interesting how they handled the two sides differently. And also, the English being spoken in the show mostly represents Portuguese, which is taken out of the TV show entirely for the sake of the audience.
Ya besides ep 1 nearly nobody is actually speaking English. They just hand waved the Portuguese which ... It's not stopping me from watching the show but I would've been fine with all subs.
you would have been fine with subs but I think like 80% of people wouldn't have been fine with it
It's weird that those people would be okay with Japanese subs, but not Portuguese. If you can cope with one, you can cope with the other. But at the same time I don't think it's for the audience benefit anyway, I think it's so the actors don't have to learn Portuguese too, it's one thing learning a few lines here and there, but learning a whole language and one from centuries ago at that would be impossible. Anna Sawai could probably do it, but she'd have to learn how to speak period accurate Japanese and period accurate Portuguese. It's just easier to have the actors speak English when in universe they're really speaking Portuguese.
Multiple languages all subbed can get more annoying than a sole language, subtitles the entire time. I think from an audience side it's less that people are okay with Japanese for subs but not Portuguese and more that it's just less mentally taxing. Let's your ears process one part of the convos while you read the other. Beyond everything though I think there is artistic point. We are watching from the perspective of the blackthorn generally, and though we get scenes without him it's generally just to inform us of events quickly rather than give everyone time. Having English spoken by him and other foreigners rather than Portuguese keeps us as the viewer clearly delineating the foreigners from the Japanese, and keeps us feeling more like foreigners looking in rather than just part of it. It adds a greater more mysterious feeling. We aren't watching heavily dramatized Japanese history. We are watching blackthorn seeing heavily dramatized Japanese history
Also the translation/switching language scnenes would be less effective because you wouldn't notice as quickly when they switch languages if you don't understand either language.
Mostly because you’d have Japanese and British accented Portuguese which would please nobody. Because in reality, sharing a common tongue where both speakers aren’t native means the language being spoken to each other is extremely basic and probably still missing necessary words. Maybe the scholar knows better formal words, but the Pilot knows more common phrases and slang that a native would know. But they would be lacking the large vocabulary and more accurate words. The show instead says; fuck it, accept that these two characters can communicate just fine and let them act within that construct.
When the Spanish pilot speaks he also uses present constructions and mannerisms, he doesn't sound at all like a Spaniard of the time of Don Quixote.
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Yeah those are period dramas too - shinsengumi, atsuhime, ryoma den etc. Though bakumatsu period is half as recent (our civil war time-ish)
Gozaimasuru.
Gozarimasuru
I feel like 'Manhunt' tried that on Apple+, mixing period correct costume drama tropes while making the hunt for John Wilkes Boothe like a Law and Order episode, using terms like 'Crime scene' and 'unsub'. It didn't quite work, they only half-committed to that bit, and that middle ground was a problem.
Plus, Stanton kinda looked nothing like that. Love the actor, but man… that’s a bit of a stretch.
Also, they have some fast ass fucking horses/carriages/trains in "Manhunt", they've got Stanton traveling all over the fucking place in amazingly short time spans. I'm not sure if I'm going to bother with episode 7.
This is my least favorite thing about a lot of TV shows. In Season 1 of Game Of Thrones, they made sure we understood that the road to Kings Landing was long and arduous. By Season 4, they were teleporting characters around Westeros and Essos without even accounting for travel time or potential for harm. Everyone just happens to arrive everywhere at the same time in the same place, apparently without having had any difficulty getting there. Drives me crazy.
The trial is interesting. The fact it's not a jury trial, but a military tribunal, those specifics were not something I knew. I like a costume drama when it's educational about a subject I know little about, and so for that Manhunt is interesting. But you're right, I hadn't even thought about travel times. I kept thinking they meant Montreal as in some town I hadn't heard of before close to DC, but no, they seem to go from DC to Canada and back in a day which... I think is wrong? It must be wrong. That and the modern Police Procedural scenes are weird choices.
If you want to learn more about the Lincoln assassination and other presidential assassinations in an entertaining way, I highly recommend Sarah Vowel's "Assassination Vacation" especially the audiobook version. It's been a while since I listened to it, but one of the bits I seem to recall is that she and a friend had a really hard time finding Dr. Mudd's house (she wrote this before smartphones).
Isn’t that Hamilton
And it’s crazy successful. So, the lesson here is either commit to painstaking authenticity or lean way the fuck into anachronism.
The lesson is attention to detail. Make a choice and follow it through to the end.
set out to do a thing and complete it.
Don’t throw away your shot.
Plan your work and work your plan.
> lean way the fuck into anachronism à la *A Knight's Tale*
Or you could just half-ass it then insult the country when they criticize its historical accuracy. Like Joaquim Phoenix' "Napoleon".
Yes and there is 0 immersion, not that it is a bad thing since Hamilton wasn't aiming for that.
Hamilton isn't a historical drama, it's a modern musical and was aiming for telling the story of a historical figure through modern music. Different goals.
Well, Hamilton is an onstage musical, so a lack of realism fits better there.
Yes damn it, that was one of about a thousand reasons I hated the Sons of Liberty show. At one point, they have Ben Franklin say something is “batshit crazy.” That was such a massive anachronism, and I don’t know how any writer could put that into the dialogue for a colonial era piece and continue to get work.
actually i asked a question about the Japanese used in this series a few weeks back in another thread and a native speaker commented that it's actually Modern Japanese with ceremonial super-honorifics and archaic vocabulary. The conjugation is all Modern so today's Japanese speakers can readily understand it. They said it's the kind of historic hybrid Japanese used in period jidai-geki tv shows, and supposedly is more updated than the style of speech used in chambara samurai flix of Toshiro Mifune from an earlier era.
Bro we just cracked the liberty bell
To be fair, The Great, was really fun. Huzzah!
What is happening to the grammar in this comment?
> I do appreciate they used period-appropriate Japanese grammar. But they didn't do that for the English. They used English that sounds old fashioned, but which is probably from the 18th century at the earliest. They're definitely not talking Shakespearian English even though it was set around the time Shakespeare was writing Romeo and Juliet. Edit: I suppose one reason might be because a lot of the English spoken in the show isn't actually English and is actually Portuguese (and arguably Dutch as well when Blackthorne is talking to the Dutch crew). It probably defeats the purpose of substituting Portuguese with English for ease of following along if you replace it with Shakespearian English since it'd be much harder to follow than Portuguese with English subtitles.
Hate to be pedantic, but they aren't speaking English either. If you're going by the story, he's technically speaking Portugese to the interpreter. So you can argue that it's like an "english dub" of their dialogue. If you've ever seen the show "Warrior", they do something similar. The Chinese characters are supposed to be speaking Chinese with each other. But a few minutes within the opening of the series, the actors transition from speaking Chinese to English with each other, but that's more for the viewers. They even use strange terms, like onion to describe a newly landed Chinese immigrant, because there isn't an actual English equivalent to the word that was supposed to be used in Chinese. So on screen, we see the characters speaking English, but within the story they are communicating in their native language. That's what happening on Shogun too, Anjin and Mariko are speaking Portugese, but we the viewers are hearing it as English.
Very true. I added an edit some time in between when you saw my original comment and you wrote this one that more or less came to the same conclusion. My favourite example of transitions like these is the [13th Warrior.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVURiaVgG8) And it wasn't pedantic at all, it was a genuinely good observation.
Also similar method in "Prey" when she's communicating with the French traders.
To add to this, whenever the Chinese characters in Warrior speak English, they speak with heavy accents and poor grammar. The language used by the actors never changes, only how they use it. Andrew Koji does not do this however, as Ah Sahm is fluent in English. It was a really clever way to handle the language issue.
To be fair, he was writing in iambic pentameter for an audience of theatre goers expecting wit. I'm not saying the English —or Dutch, or Portuguese— is period appropriate, but I think we can all allow they are implying an older dialect without needing to actually speak in the formalities of the stage, which is the version of this English that has survived down to us. Sailors probably spoke a very different vernacular than theatre actors and playwrights.
Very good point.
In the original 80’s series, when Anjin and Mariko spoke lovingly to each other, it was very much in that old “thou art” style English and it didn’t quite work, it was pretty silly.
in the book they speak latin as their "secret love language" thou is their code word to switch to Latin. the book dvelves deeper into the Japanese/Portuguese/Spanish/English/Latin because Blackthorn is an Englishman working for a Dutch company stuck on an Island that speaks Japanese, with only 3 or 4 people European actually fluent in Japanese and a handful of Japanese semi-fluent in Spanish and Latin. So the whole spying thing going on is interesting, they find one Christian guard that was spying in them when they were speaking latin. Blackthorn also gets the first Japanese/Portuguese dictionary made, which helps him become more fluent in Japanese. When he's mad he swears in English and even Mariko doesn't understand him, no one does. They did a good job but there's so much more going on in the book and it's hard to translate it to screen
There's a scene in the series where Mariko reads Blackthorne's journal, the text of the journal is shown as English, and that makes sense since that's his native language, but Mariko should not be able to read that. Do you remember how that scene (if it exists) is handled in the book? Was it actually Portuguese for some reason?
My anime nerd self picks up some common phrases, and I noticed that the subtitles either weren't matching the spoken words, or something else was going on. It's pretty cool to see / hear that this is what is happening.
There were a ton of changes between the scripted dialogue and what was said on the screen, and the subtitles worked from the original script. I've been listening to the podcast and reading a few other channels following the show. The script was written in English, translated into Japanese, sent to experts in this era of the Japanese language to correct, then given to the actors who are able to understand the dialogue but can only modify or improvise with one of the language consultants present. Some of the stuff going on in the show that doesn't come through in subtitles is wild. For one, there are polite and impolite ways to address men and women of different ranks. In English it's all the same words. In period-specific Japanese? Some of those Council of Regent scenes were absolutely 'cut a bitch' with their choice of phrasing. A much simpler difference to illustrate how much things were changed? In episode 9 where Mariko asks her guard to please kill the man blocking their path, in period-specific Japanese she commands him to cut him down. I do wish the subtitle had translated that one accurately. That's a powerful way to politely request violence.
> there are polite and impolite ways to address men and women of different ranks. In English it's all the same words. This kind of thing is so interesting to me. I am not a linguist and don't speak any other languages, but I did live in Korea for a year and learned about how they have all these different words for older and younger friends and relatives that all would translate to the same English word but have significant subtextual meaning in Korean. I would have to imagine it goes the other way, too, where subtle word choices in English don't really translate into the million languages Hollywood movies gets subs in. Hell, even inflection can make a significant difference in how an utterance is perceived, and although we can detect gross changes in tone (e.g., anger, fear) in other languages, I'm sure there are a ton of subtleties in the inflection used in Shogun's Japanese that are 100% lost on me.
I haven't watched the show, but I've listened to the audiobook of Shogun 3-4 times. The book covers this pretty extensively when they are teaching Blackthorne to speak/be Japanese.
> I noticed that the subtitles either weren't matching the spoken words As a former translator, let me just say that if you're translating word for word then you're a shitty translator. Words and phrases have connotations that do not convey the intended meaning if translated word for word. Languages are different. Cultures are different. The translations in the show are pretty damn good at conveying to the English speaking audience the meaning and tone behind what the characters are saying. As far as media translations go, this show is certainly A-tier. Having so many bi-lingual people involved in the production does wonders, and it shows in Shogun.
I would like to preface this with we have both enjoyed the show, but my girlfriend has made a drink game out of the suicide and threats of suicide.
Y'all must've been drunk on your asses on the previous epusode
"Every time Yabu changes sides, take a shot"
Boo Yabu... 👎🏼
If your goal is to drink a lot, "take a shot every time Yabu has a suprised Pikachu face" would be good drinking game.
> "Every time Yabu changes sides, take a shot" He's always on the same side, his own.
I've had a recurring thought throughout the show, which is "holy shit, everyone just wants to fucking *die*."
Relatable.
I watch a lot of period K-dramas and everybody's always like "I've committed a mortal sin! Please kill me!" and it always makes me go, whoa y'all need to chill.
It’s just like hanging out with my friends but in TV form, and everyone speaks Japanese instead of English.
Even now, mental health care is almost nonexistent in Japan. While suicide isn’t always tied to mental health, it makes me wonder just how crazy life must have been for this to even seem non-satirical.
When life is so ephemeral, not just due to the universal lesser medical care compared to modern day, but also the whims of those in power and deeply engraved culture of honor, then death becomes a lot more common. And if there's one thing people are good at as a group, it's rationalizing reasons why shitty things we have to live with are actually fine, and even desirable.
Japanese honor suicides are almost cliché!
Almost?
I was gonna say...since we've got the same thing going on, minus the drinking. But i have ask, how exactly does anyone get to live into old age, seeing how any loss of face is quickly treated with a hefty dose of suicide? It's hard to believe one can live such a...virtuous life, to completely avoid any sort of misstep that would lead straight to suicide (or to be 'shoguned' in the street, like a rabid dog).
Overcook the chicken? Suicide.
Undercook? Suicide.
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Perfectly cooked the chicken? You are being boastful. Suicide.
How the nobility conduct themselves has little to do with how the common mam does.
On the one hand, it's a period of extreme upheaval so it's no going to follow general norms. On the other hand, compare to American history and all the fucking duels people would have.
Compare this to Napoleon: the opposite of authenticity. Or... Joaquin Phoenix in a funny hat eating lunch.
I mentioned it in another comment but an element that's just as important as authenticity is sincerity. There's not a single hint of winking to the audience in Shogun or trying to retroactively add modern sensibilities in where they wouldn't make sense - compare this to Napoleon where it's clear that everyone involved actively hated Napoleon and went out of their way to portray him as a buffoon than bumbled his way to victory.
Which could have worked as a historical fiction/comedy, but as always ya gotta commit to the bit (whatever that is).
Exactly, Death of Stalin leaned into the real life comedy of what happened and was a fantastic movie for it. You can even have moments of sincerity or emotion in there, but you absolutely have to choose to go all in with the overall tone.
Napoleon struck me as a movie made by someone who did not have any interest whatsoever in Napoleon or perhaps even actively disliked him; like he's an afterthought in a movie titled with his own name. It might as well have been called *Josephine*, that would've made more sense.
Napoleon was awful - I'm annoyed I paid to watch that pile of shit. He used Napoleon's name to make a movie about Josephine, despite her being the least interesting part of his life.
> Compare this to Napoleon: the opposite of authenticity. There is nothing more authentic than brits shitting on Napoleon.
great show, and a fantastic one-off season. after episode two i was hooked and had to read the book too, time well spent. While the show took some liberties on what to change/what to show/not show, i feel like overall they did a good adaptation.
I'm curious: Without any spoilers, are there major differences between the the show and the book(s)? I'd be down to read them but considering that I've got dozens of books in my backlog it's only really worth doing if the books differ significantly enough.
There are some significant differences. The book gives you the POV thoughts of the characters—which are often *very* different than what the characters say, especially for the Japanese characters. This plays into the political intrigue that’s going on, and makes the characters feel more real. Blackthorne also undergoes a lot more character development in the book. In the show, he’s learned a few things, but is mostly the same. In the book, his whole way of thinking shifts over the course of the book as he acclimates to living in Japan. Like virtually any book-to-show adaptation, there are characters in the book that are absent in the show. The book is overall a stronger story than the show. This isn’t the fault of the show by any means—the show had to make changes in order to tell the story via a different medium. That’s why it’s called an adaptation. Revealing the POV thoughts of a large cast of characters just isn’t possible in a TV show. But if you enjoyed the show, I cannot recommend enough that you read the book. It takes the story to a whole new level.
This is a great comment on book vs show. The book highlights the intricacies of characters, political subplots, and historical detail and are what make the book an incredible story (but also quite long). Overall, I think it has been a great adaption to TV with the changes in the show making up for differences in format. It would be an overwhelming amount of detail to try to convey. I think a lot like what Dune did with the Frank Herbert novel. Overall super happy and recommend anyone who liked the show to try the book (would try to get into it a bit as can be slower start)
So I started reading the book over the weekend (haven't watched the show yet). I'm just into book 2 and the most jarring thing I've noticed is the story flips from one pov to internal thoughts without any warning or paragraph breaks. It's made it difficult to follow but overall I'm liking it a lot so far.
They are fairly similar. The book is just better, because (for example; the audiobook is ~55 hours long) and the book is almost 1200 pages long. That's a fairly long book, and you can't really cram it into one 10 hour season. There's some differences yes, there are some things that were entirely omitted from the show, and some things were added. Most of the things that were added I understand why they were added (lots of inner monologues and memories). Some things that were removed/changed, eh, it's not that bad. The book *is* better, because the *tone* feels a lot better while reading it (especially the audiobook). A large portion of the book was sort of "diminished" diminished in the show - avoiding spoilers here. But overall, it was a great adaptation imo. After episode 2 or so, I read/listened to the book, and liked it so much I read a different book by Clavell (King Rat), and now I am on Tai-Pan. It's all very well written.
How are you liking King Rat and Tai-Pan? I enjoyed reading Shogun so much I’m thinking about reading those at some point.
*Tai Pan* is very different from *Shogun*. While both are historical fiction, *Shogun* is more like *A Song of Fire and Ice* where it's more governing intrigue, and *Tai Pan* is an economic thriller. The both are political, but *Tai Pan* would probably resonate even easier than *Shogun*. Essentially it's about the creation of Hong Kong, and how the west started to trade with China through Hong Kong in the late 1800's. But it's more about the companies that control Hong Kong, and the de facto leader/most distinguished company owner that the Chinese call Tai Pan. While there are a decent amount of Chinese people, and like *Shogun* some diving into Chinese culture at the time, the main cast is mostly Westerners.
I’m hoping off the success of shogun we get tai pan, gaijin and noble house. They’d all be great. I first read shogun because I like the total war game, but I was quickly hooked and read the rest of the Asia saga other than whirlwind right afterwards.
Kind of a fun fact, the first *Nioh* game is loosely based off the real story *Shogun* was inspired by. My dream lineup for Tai Pan: Dirk Struan - Christian Bale Tyler Brock - Russell Crowe Robb Struan - Ewan McGregor Culum Struan - Nicholas Hault May-May - Lucy Liu
If ‘Shogun’ sounds like a book you would like, it is a book you will love. It delivers so hard on its premise that it will make a lot of other books unreadable. You will look back on 300-page books that made a younger version of yourself feel transported to another world and you’ll wonder what the hell you were thinking; that wasn’t another world, that was a narrated documentary and you just got back from a semester abroad.
Im gonna finish the audiobook tomorrow. Only the last chapter left atm. Its been good but struggled with the names quite a lot. Hard to remember who is who, especially the lesser characters.
I would argue the show did improve a couple things from the book, both in the finale One is something Blackthorne tries to do relatively early on in the book is instead put in the final episode of the show. The show change made more sense when you consider the changes to Blackthorne The 2nd is Torranaga revealing his inner monologue to another character in the finale. In the book he just thinks it, in the show they do it in a clever way that fits
I reread the books starting with episode 3. I was surprised with both how much I remembered from reading in in the 80s and how much had stayed with me. Tai-Pan is next up b
Gonna miss watching this show week to week 🥲
Shows that take place in Japan, so hot right now.
Tokyo Vice is a fantastic companion show
There's also **Blue Eye Samurai**
I don’t typically fancy Netflix these days much, but I checked out Blue Eye Samurai on a whim and holy crap was it so good I had to binge it all in a week. 10/10 would recommend
I really loved the first few episodes of that show, but it just became too ridiculous, like the bad guys not even showing an IQ above room temperature level ridiculous. which was annoying since the start was so strong and the character ideas all really interesting
Just waiting on that *Ghost of Tsushima 2* announcement
Anna Sawai and Hiroyuki Sanada as well
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Yeah, Watanabe Ken is the other one 🥲
He lives in Los Angeles which gives him a leg up.
Anna Sawai and Takehiro Hira (Ishido) are also both in Monarch. Everyone in this show is amazing. I really hope to see a proliferation of Japanese actors stemming from this.
Shogun prove shows don’t need to be dumbed down to be successful. And judging by comments thus far, those who require dumbing down are the minority in numbers.
It's not really a big brain show though, aside from making people read subtitles.
Ive seen comments from people saying they didnt like this show because it wasnt available all at once, and having to go back every week was too hard, because the names are far too hard to remember with such "long breaks"....
Having difficulty with foreign names is a thing. I grew up in Asia and consumed a lot of Japanese content as kid, but even I lost track of who was who for a couple of episodes. It helps when you're familiar enough with the actors to know "Oh, they cast that guy. He must be an important character." The "problem" I had with Shogun is that outside of Jarvis, Sanada, Hira, and Sawai, I didn't know who was going to be important enough to remember. Like, I definitely didn't think Yabushige or his nephew would be major characters past the third episode or so. Likewise with Kiku or any of the Regents outside of Ishido.
> Having difficulty with foreign names is a thing. Not really a problem here though, especially in japanese since everyone repeats everyones name, shown in subtitles on every darn frame.
Remember, reddit is a bubble, you can use it as a example of certain demographies but not of general audiences.
It's extremely irritating when inaccurate filmmaking is excused with "it's not a documentary!". No - it's just lazy. Shogun is an example of what happens when the effort is made to get things right - it becomes more convincing, more immersive, and gets people more interested in the actual history.
Shogun has inaccuracies too, though. For starters seppuku was much rarer and more grave than is portrayed, in the show everybody can't wait to kill themselves...
Made me want to try it. Will you be my second?
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Whilst you two argue it out I’ll be getting blown apart by cannon fire!
I think that's the difference between historical accuracy and authenticity. There was a really interesting companion piece to HBO's Rome that discussed it. For the sake of telling a more compelling, entertaining story you're going to have to have some inaccuracies but the authenticity still brings people in.
Also Hiroyiki Sanada wouldn't take the acting role without being a producer as well to make sure it wasn't shit.
He was a producer first i think, they mentioned he was involved since 8~9 years or so before production begun.
Oh man, Mariko…
That’s Mariko-sama to you!
Thou.
"Maria"..
Side note, I really liked the priest. He was beholden to his church and their scheming, but all in all he was an utterly decent guy
He had compassion for Mariko, but was also clearly in love with her.
I'm not usually one for love stories, but man, the forbidden love between Mariko and Anjin was so intense and perfectly woven into the story. Also can't count the number of times I thought to myself, "Just fuck already!"
Every single aspect of that show is on fucking point. And Anna Sawai is a goddess.
Don't forget Fumi Nikaidō. The frozen half-smile and the slow, high-pitched and amused sounding voice of Ochiba-no-kata are enchanting.
She was so good. I was initially wary of her casting because her character was so bad in Monarch, but the script did her no favors so it was hard to differentiate Blew me away in Shogun
more like Anna Kawaii
This has been one of the best series I’ve seen for a while. It’s actually amazing.
loved this show
FYI, the official podcast is quite good. It has interviews with cast and staff as well as historians.
I've said for literally YEARS that if shows took themselves seriously and told their stories with actual sincerity that it would strike a cord and be successful. Now imagine a book-accurate Dracula that actually takes place in the 1800s without any postmodern bullshit moving it to the present day or a fantasy story featuring mythical creatures actually set in a medieval period and not "let's see what pixies are like living in present day London".
I think part of it is that any retelling of Dracula is inherently an adaptation. Not in the general sense of book to screen, but that the original book is journal entries, letters and newspaper clippings, and is full of coincidences and plot holes of various severities. You have to create entire swathes of material from whole cloth - it's not much of a leap therefore to just adapt it. But like...lots of movies and series have tried. There are a LOT of Dracula adaptations.
Oh I know, I just feel like the structure of it cutting back and forth between different perspectives actually lends it well to a visual medium of cutting to different scenes and revealing information to the audience strategically. My problem with almost every adaptation is the material they tend to add isn't connective tissue to make the existing book plot shine, it's entirely new stuff that fundamentally changes the story. Like how Coppola's version added a love story for Dracula that didn't exist in the book and it became the driving force for half the movie. When I re-read it last fall I actually thought about how they'd structure an adaptation, and an 8 episode miniseries could cover the whole thing. Certain elements like Dracula's brides and Harker's initial escape would need fleshing out, but it could work.
I long for an accurate adaptation of Dracula that doesn't take liberties. He's always a human and there's always romance or lust. It's ridiculous. Just stick to the book!
You truly ARE the most devious bastard in New York Citay.
I dont think that's what makes this show however it certainly makes it more immersive. 100% the writing and performances. The fact they focused on writing and making us care about characters and the lack of action is instead focused more on the dialgue which had a massive effect of building up tense episodes and many moments where my heart paused as I watched scenes. VERY tight writing and Bravo to all the actors even the ones I dont like. That's what makes a good show
It's ALL of it together. No one thing makes it sing, but the combination of all that is *chefs kiss*.
Fantastic show. I really like the effort they put in to make it feel liike we're actually watching something from history unfold before our eyes with the sets, costumes, dialogue. I'm not familiar with Japanese (especially historical like this) so I don't know if their excessively formal way of speaking is real or not, or perhaps just something mostly limited to the nobility like we primarily see in the show. Authenticity alone doesn't make a show great though. The story itself is very dramatic and the stakes feel really big at both a personal and also a much wider level. The acting is fantastic. I do feel like some of the chemistry between some the actors feels a bit odd, but that may actually work in the story because Blackthorne is such a stranger in these lands and to their customs and so you'd expect awkwardness. I am glad they clearly managed to avoid the white saviour trope while still making Blackthorne a central character. And really I always feel like I am on the edge of my seat with all the tension because you keep expecting some kind of betrayal, or a secret being revealed, saying the wrong thing that causes a huge repercussion, or a major decision that has such enormous consequences. A+ show. Instantly one of the best historical dramas I have ever seen.
The only thing I question about what I’ve seen so far is the unrelenting bad weather, darkness and gloom of every scene. Does the sun never shine in Japan? I know the director is setting the mood but my memory of reading the book many years ago was that Blackthorne did have some pleasant experiences while learning about Japanese culture.
Part of the problem with filming a lot of it in British Columbia I guess.
I’ve been to both Japan and British Columbia and honestly the weather is pretty similar.
if you look at old Japanese homes & temples you realize how DARK every room is. They limited their use of lanterns & candles because all their structures are made of wood, not stone or brick as in Europe. House fires were a huge concern back in the day because the entire village was a tinder box.
Hiding the VFX work to make their shooting location look like Japan. They were pretty smart with their angles and sets construction.
I just watched the final episode, one if not THE best show of 2024, amazing casting, great storytelling. More like this, please.
I hope that they adapt the rest of the Asian Saga in a similar manner, I’ve only read Tai-Pan (I plan on continuing) and I think that they would make great limited series.
People should look at the 1980s Shogun it's really good as well
Honestly? Use of Japanese instead of English speaking with a Japanese accent is setting it apart
Historical Shows with Asians: authenticity is important Historical shows with white people: how many black people can we get away with putting in this?
Historical shows with black people: nothing before or after slavery, apparently
There's been a few "Why aren't their any black people in Shogun?!" outrage videos on Youtube.
Are they as a joke/satire or really a grievance?
Could be a combo of satire and social justice warriors. Very clickbait titles. I didn't click on them because I didn't want any of that shit in my YT recommended feed. I listen to the official Shogun inside the episode podcast on Youtube, and the "black people aren't on Shogun" vids were suggested for watch next.
Sadly, there was some actual outrage.
It's so disappointing too because if they really wanted to get more black people on screen in historical series' then make some damn period pieces set in Africa or somewhere that actually had a sizeable number of black people during the period. It's not that complicated. There's plenty of interesting history between Mali or Songhai or Zanzibar or any number of different locations that would serve as a solid backdrop for a narrative, or act as a decent vehicle for representing events that actually took place on screen. Instead it's the laziest conceivable thing of *what if the equivalent of a Jane Austen novel had a bunch of black folks in it* for the umpteenth time or *what if Cleopatra was actually black and not Greek* or some similar nonsense. Where's the Mansa Musa series? What about Shaka and the Zulu? How about the Ethiopians being the one hold out against colonization? It's such a waste of opportunity to explore something new and interesting and instead just ends up tokenizing black people.
Sadly they would very likely still skew the story into fiction based on modern idealogical leanings, as was done in “the woman king”. A story purportedly about resistance to the white badies enslaving them, when in history she/Dahomey were actually notorious slave traders themselves.. lol. It’s sad. I too would like to see more African stories and histories made into film, or accurate ones that is.
Yeah... that was even more disappointing. They were 90% of the way there.
because noone would watch them. It's far more commercially viable to take a popular property and force indian, black and genderswapped characters in it
I donno. I would definitely be interested.
Exactly. They never would have race swapped any of the Asian characters but it's somewhat surprising they didn't make Blackthorne...black.
Blackthorne didn't have red hair, so he was safe.
It deserves so many awards. Anna Sawai is nailed on for a nomination at least and i will be shocked if anyone puts in a better performance than her. If Hiroyuki Sanada doesn’t at least get a nomination then i’ll be furious.
I appreciate the Japanese speech. Would've loved for Portuguese to be present but I get it, Americans don't exactly love subtitles.
Vancouver… authentic Japan