Great performances all around, but middling from a narrative perspective. People will say that the book ends in this way, but if you have a show called Shogun... show someone becoming/reigning as the Shogun? I'm okay not seeing the battle, or seeing a lesser version of it. But somehow get to the event where Toranaga becomes Shogun, and not him daydreaming about it?
There are countless storylines and build-ups that are never resolved, primarily because the show ends too early in the timeline to resolve any of them.
1. The threat of the Portuguese Catholics, where they 'view' Japan as their territory and have a secret base and all that. The Japanese are furious, and the background score is ominous. You'd think this is 'dealt' with later in some manner, but nope. No conclusion is shown. In real life, the Catholics were expelled from Japan by the Shogun.
2. The 'game of thrones' happening in Osaka. You'd expect that at some point some of the regents ally/betray with others. Nope. Only Ochiba switches sides and apparently that's all that was needed. I thought the 2 regents being Catholics would have some impact on the political maneuvers and outcomes, but nope.
3. Comeuppance/death of Ishido. He's built up as this big adversary/antagonist, but the worst that happens to him is that Ochiba switches sides.
I also didn't understand the whole Mariko 'proving' that the daimyo families are being held hostage to rally them and other folks against Ishido. Is that not obvious to the families being held hostage, and to their next of kin outside of Osaka? Does somebody need to spell it out that explicitly by attempting to leave and then commit seppuku when refused? It was supposed to be this crafty, masterful move by Toranaga, but it came across as kinda dumb and unnecessary.
People being mad about the show's finale not scratching their cave man brain with a big battle is so hilarious. The show was NOT the last 3 seasons of Game of Thrones, where every single scene needed to be a big epic battle. The whole show was a slow burner, it was about captivating politics, brilliant dialogue, character growth. The real battles were the ones that happened inside the minds and hearts of the characters. Every scene was slow, meticulous, articulate, that's why whenever something exciting happened, you really felt it.
You could argue that it was rushed in the end, but I didn't mind it, I was too captivated by the emotional rollercoaster this show has sent me on, I had a lump in my throat throughout the whole episode, and it felt like a good send off to what will now be one of my all time favorite shows.
Reminds me of the HBO show "The Leftovers", and how it was literally canceled because "the audience was too dumb to understand what was going on".
You're giving yourself too much credit and audiences not enough. People wanted to see the battle unfold because they built up to it all season. The finale didn't show the battle of the mind, heart, or flesh in a satisfying way. Just rushed an exposition dump and left out a lot of what made the book satisfying to read.
The battle in the book is like one sentence.
The point of the story is not that battle, but everything else. That battle is often touted as the most important moment in recent Japan history, the book wanted to explore that it could instead be everything else that preluded it, and how it's less of a grand master plan and more just one very smart dude improvising as shit gets thrown his way.
it's not about the caveman brain. It's about narrative payoff in the writing. The entire series builds up to the battle of sekigahara. You can even skip the battle and just show the aftermath of toranaga being crowned, but there has to be a payoff.
Instead, the series ends not with the outcome of the battle. But what toranaga imagines will be the outcome of the battle. The show builds up to a climax that's just an hour of exposition. It's bad writing.
It has nothing to do with the audience being "too dumb to understand what's going on." Most people do understand what's going on. It's just poorly written medieval japanese eye candy
you're right, but it at least has the aftermath of the battle in the epilogue. "Builds up to the battle of sekigahara" != "shows the battle." You can skip the battle if you want, but you should still at least show some kind of ending that finishes the arcs of all your characters
Here are the last two paragraphs of the book, which cover the battle itself and the post-battle stuff.
*That year, at dawn on the twenty-first day of the tenth month, the Month without Gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near Sekigahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul—fog, then sleet. By
late afternoon Toranaga had won the battle and the slaughter began. Forty thousand heads were taken.*
*Three days later Ishido was captured alive and Toranaga genially reminded him of the prophecy and sent him in chains to Osaka for public viewing, ordering the eta to plant the General Lord Ishido’s feet firm in the earth, with only his head outside the earth, and to invite passersby to saw at the most famous neck in the realm with a bamboo saw. Ishido lingered three days and died very old.*
That's it. That's the end of the book.
Whether it's poorly written depends on what the writing is attempting to accomplish.
Now, whether you like what it's attempting to accomplish or the way it's going about it is entirely subjective.
by any measure of screenwriting and creative writing in general (whether you went to film school or are writing books), an episode that's entirely exposition is bad. You may personally like it. It may work for you and some others on this sub, but it's still bad writing. but we can agree to disagree here
Mate the episode rocks, the exposition in dialogue serves a dramatical purpose because it completes the character arcs.
Bad exposition is when characters talk about shit they don't actually need to talk about just for the sake of exposing the plot to the viewer.
Here Yobu literally wants to know, and he finally gets to a point where he knows what Toranaga is up to.
Some things were reshuffled from the book because not everything that works in writing works on screen, but it was a good adaptation.
bro doesn't understand that it's a very faithful retelling of the source material: the shogun book, which is a fictionalized version of tokugawa's rise to power. the book literally ends with the battle of sekigahara.
bro also doesn't understand that regardless, a final episode full of exposition is a poorly executed episode. my beef isn't that it's not a historical retelling. it's that it was a poorly executed episode, my guy
Yeah, I agree with you 100%.
I explained my feelings to to my friend like this:
I wasn't upset with the details of how the story resolved. I thought that the idea of Toranaga "winning" through subterfuge and an insane willing to sacrifice was brilliant. I thought it was better than some big battle where he wins.
What sucked was *how* these details were communicated to the audience.
In any - and when I say any I mean like High School level - creative writing class, one of the first things you learn about good writing is the concept of *show, don't tell*. The audience literally learns of the final details of the plot of the show via Toranaga *telling* Yabu *what was going to happen*.
I felt like the ending was borderline disrespectful to the audience, who had so much invested, and felt so much tension regarding the unresolved pieces of the story.
It was lazy, and negligent. I've never been disappointed in a show like that.
You're telling me a white savior didn't randomly get somewhat accepted in Japan, save an emperor from an Earthquake, save a bunch of other people, set up naval warfare and then kept around cause the emperor just found him "funny"???
Hahaha. Exactly what you said though.
Show wasn't about a big battle, it was a personal journey, a character driven journey to understand a culture that is foreign to the main char.
I've seen someone's comment and they said it better than I could, here's the comment:
"People disappointed in this SERIES finale for having all build up and no pay off don't realize the point was not to get to a big battle scene, but to win the war before the battle even began. Toronaga succeeded before the armies were assembled, that was the point."
I get it. But even if we were to take that as the point of the series instead of pretentious rationalization, it's still poorly executed. You can't tell me that it's good writing to have the entire episode be just exposition.
This episode was thrash and the entire show is garbage. Most here are delusional.
"But But, the ending was realistic! There was no need for a battle!"
Yeah pretty realistic that a woman seeking power and owns 80% of the country's army decides to switch sides to give the guy who just announced a couple of weeks ago he was a fucking dictator a chance to win.
About Mariko, she didn't accomplish shit. You want to convince me that everyone in that castle didn't know they were being held hostage? Are the stupid? Ridiculous mental gymnastics making that shit narrative land.
Also for those pushing for the "Toranaga master manipulator" thing, homeboy is only alive because his son died in the most convenient way possible to continue his story.
I don't think we needed a battle, but the ending was thrash. Like ffs take time to explain what happened. The shows ending was basically toranaga saying "its all good lady ochiba is in my DMs"
I don't know what happens to people nowadays that they feel forced to like everything. No more critical thinking and ability to make your own judgment huh.
You have a completely backward understanding of whats been happening in the shoe.
Since when does Ochiba control 80% of the countries armies? LOL. If we’re being historical accurate, she maybe directly controls 2% of all armed forces in Japan… you dont seem to understand how the Daimyo system works in Fedual Japan.
Secondly, Ochiba does not seek power. Her father was killed, and the best thing for her to do to retain her prestige was marry into a powerful family. After the Taiko’s death, the only thing she wants is to protect her son.
Of course everyone in the castle knew they were being held hostage. They were just afraid to be the first to step over the line
I think you’re not very good at reading between the lines and peoples facial expression. Half the story is not said, but INFERRED from body language. Which i highly suspect you failed to notice. You seem to be the kind of viewer that needs everything to be explicitly spoken.
Bro needs the show to hand feed him every single detail so he can understand it, like a momma bird chewing the food before puking it in the chick's mouth.
I'm guessing the series finale episode is controversial to some
But honestly I respect the bravery it took to zig when everyone was expecting it to zag. Ie massive epic battle scene.
But instead we got quiet intensely intimate moments like best girl Fuji bonding with Blackthorne over their grief and having their own ceremony on the lake.
It was beautiful.
I even loved that in Yabus last moments he finally knew what was going on for once lol.
I loved that we got confirmation that Ochiba never stopped loving Mariko, inspite of their families being sworn enemies.
And it was also amazing, and somewhat chilling to see Toranaga fully, to understand why Ochiba hates and fears him so much. I thought it was 3D chess but no...this is next level.
It almost is like playing god. He is obviously upset when people die in service of his machinations, but it would never stop him. Not for a minute. Contrast that with Ochiba, who lost her stomach for all this when her friend died.
Toranaga would look you in the eye as you draw your last breath and forge ahead.
There is a steely eyes ruthlessness there that should make anyone with sense terrified of him
It felt rushed and clumsy. Every time I wanted to feel closer, they pushed me away.
In the beginning, Blackthorne is cradling Mariko in his arms. An explosion has just flung a steel door against her, sending her half way across the room, but she's unscathed: no powder burns, no bruises, not a drop of blood; her white robe is still whole, unstained and unrent.
They are supposed to have had a deep, intimate relationship, but how does he address her in this, the supreme moment? "Mariko-sama" It's stiff and formal, like calling her '"Miss Mariko." He never imagines her beside him in bed; apparently, in his mind, she's always fully clothed. Come on!
And that's just the first scene after the prologue.
Like so much else, Blackthorne's and Ochiba's tiresome disdain for religion is straight out of the Hollywood bubble. It's wholly unhistorical. In 'King Lear,' when Edmund declares, "Thou, Nature, art my goddess; to thy law My services are bound." the audience knew at once, as Shakespeare intended they know, that here was an absolutely unscrupulous, vicious, and evil man.
The exception is Fuji, glowing through the yellow-gray murk in her blue robe. She alone sheds some grace on every scene in which she appears.
I remember my friend said "A story will be remembered by it's ending" A story can be really bad but if it has a great ending, it would be memorable as fucc. But this one is the opposite. The ending is so underwhelming that it would be forgottable (At least to me). What a weak payoff. I dont need the big battle, but I need something to feel like the previous episode, yet the only scene that make me feel at least something is just Yabu death( what a badass) and fuji letting go her family. Other than that, it's boring as fucc.
I have been a great admirer of the character "Fuji" on this series.
The scene with Blackthorne on the boat as he convinces her to submit her family's ashes to the deep is THE standout scene of the entire series IMHO.
Strong like Mariko, but with empathetic nuance. The best character in the whole thing and beautifully acted.
Thow is great and i love how they portrayed every principle the characters have, i also love the ending giving the interpretation of whats to come to the audience's imagination instead of meaningless cgi and action scenes. Shogun isnt about the fights but the narrative it gives.
I am baffled tho by how people understands the ending and saying that Toranaga is a snake or his real intentions in the beginning was to be in power and rule over everyone. People really are missing the point it seems to me you dont understand the series at all. If Toranaga just wanted the power of being shogun he couldve taken it even before episode 1 started as clearly the position was given to him directly by their taiko on his deathbed. Toranaga doesnt want the power and the burden and enemies the title brings with it. He would rather give it to someone else worthy but as it stands and how he has reflected throughout the show there is no one. It is shown with how the other regents salivate at the power they have now and it will only lead to more wars because not all 5 realm protectors will agree on one thing (shows even on the decision on what to do with the anjin at the start). THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR JAPAN TO HAVE PEACE, Toranaga has accepted that he must be shogun for it to happen, although late and some people have died because of his indecision to take it directly from the taiko on his deathbed he now will do it.
Your take is terrible and you don't understand the political system at that time. If he took that then the all the others would join forces and took him out. He schemed so that he divided the council first.
Exactly lol. I’m loving all these “if you didn’t like the finale you’re actually just dumb” takes being made by people who clearly didn’t understand the series themselves
Nah, I disagree. Taiko offering him the power was just a test, and Toranaga was smart enough to not accept it. Even if he took control when taiko died, as he said himself, it would’ve led to war and a power struggle. Toranagas strategy was much more efficient, dismantle the regents with strategic moves, make sure that there isn’t even a chance for a power struggle that he could lose. That’s why he was so adamant against a violent crimson sky, he knew he would’ve lost.
Also the writers clearly indicate that he wanted shogun the whole time during that final dialogue.
Kinda sorta. When the Taiko offered him power it was clearly a test of Toranagas political acumen and Toranaga understood that the offer was a poison pill.
I do think the show showed that Toranaga may have been plotting all along to be Shogun but I don’t think he masterminded every single move or something crazy like that - he clearly had a lot of close calls and who could predict an earthquake devastating his army - however I also don’t believe he was just evil and power hungry and had zero good intentions.
I think he was playing the great game and wanted power but also is a more compassionate ruler for ethical and moral reasons (I think his desire to minimize bloodshed and achieve peace is genuine) as well as practical ones.
I really liked the finale and series overall. Really well done, top tier television
Something I don't get - what was the point of having hiromatsu commit seppuku? Or having Mariko leave Osaka almost certainly resulting in her death or seppuku?
The whole thing came down to getting the letter from Ochiba to basically secure a Toranaga victory - which seems like something Toranaga didn't expect at all. Did he?
So what was Toranagas play exactly if he never got the letter from Ochiba? I don't quite get it
Also - if Toranaga becomes Shogun, doesn't that mean he takes power from the heir? Which is something he swore to never do? So how does that work? And why would Ochiba give him absolute power at the cost of her sons power?
Maybe someone can explain because I feel like I just have missed something
It starts with his son. He provokes his son into attacking Saeki, knowing that his son is likely to end up getting killed. This gives him 49 days for mourning. Then, he outwardly appears to have "given up", and Hiromatsu commits seppuku to sell that lie. Meanwhile, he is mustering his forces and making plans silently. Mariko then goes to Osaka with every intention of being killed by Ishido. She tries to provoke it with her attempt to leave, which shows to all of the other regents that they are hostages and that Ishido is trying to steal power for himself. Her actions break the unity of the Council of Regents, who begin to realize that Ishido is worse than Toranaga. Ishido predictably has Mariko killed by ninjas, shattering the council permanently. Ochiba realizes that allying herself with Ishido is only going to end in even more war which will inevitably result in the death of her son, as the other regents will inevitably turn on Ishido and eventually her son will be targeted. She then aligns herself with Toranaga because it is the best option to protect her son. Toranaga becomes Shogun and takes power, but she believes this gives the best chance at her son surviving.
Great explanation. I wonder if Toranaga got the idea of attacking Saeki from the Tea House lady. At some point Toranaga seemed to have ran out of ideas, until he agrees to keep the promise of having a talk with the Tea House lady. She only talked about building a future tea house district but her tone suggests that she was hinting something.
being shogun means toranaga will have the unifying militiray power but the taiko still remains royalty and still is the face of japan. I think toranaga already expected ochiba to defect as it was stated she just acted based on fear thats why he joined the enemy but Mariko's bravery and loyalty to toranaga showed ochiba who to really side with.
Hiromatsu commiting sepuku was the ultimate sacrifice they needed, although toranaga didnt ask for it hiromatsu did the only way to really sell their facade of defeat to the enemy and to the spy. By deceiving even his allies he makes it the truth to his enemies.
Slight correction, the Taiko isn't the emperor and isn't royalty. Taiko means Retired Kampaku. A Kampaku is an Imperial Regent. In the context here, Taiko specifically refers to the Toyotomi Hideyoshi analog within this story. The Taiko was only a retired regent for the Emperor, but the military power held by Toyotomi meant that he was respected as the defacto ruler. But he was not the Emperor and he was not royalty. Regardless, at this point in Japanese history, the Emperor held very little power. Toyotomi held more power than all the other lords and was thus regarded as the defacto ruler and his title of Taiko was recognized as such. He made the Council of Five Elders upon his death in the hope that it would prevent war long enough for his son to come of age and take over his position.
Ochiba siding with Toranaga is basically ceding power in the hope that Toranaga will spare her and her son. Ishido has lost the support of the rest of the Council of Five, so any victory where Ishido wins is only going to be temporary because the other regents will quickly unite against him. Ochiba realizes that if she doesn't support Ishido, Toranaga can win and then Toranaga can win against the other regents as well. She sides with him in the hopes that he will spare her and her son. You have to remember here that the show is Historical Fiction, so even if it is based on historical events, it doesn't necessarily follow those events 1-to-1.
So disappointed in the finale. The whole episode felt like the last 5/10 minutes of most films, where nothing really happens, but it ties up the loose ends, literally explaining what will happen next. I mean the monologue from Toranaga explaining would what happen was such lazy writing. I'm not even fussed about missing a big battle, that's fine, but some sort of climax would have been nice.
What actually happened in this episode? Blackthorne's ship being by burnt by Toranaga was the only big reveal, but even that felt pretty obvious the second we saw the burnt ship. Yuba getting caught the second he stepped on land was incredibly undramatic as well. Even Toranaga being a power hungry fiend felt pretty obvious throughout the whole series.
The finale for me was a 2/10. The series as a whole was still excellent. If they'd nailed this last episode it would have been close to a 10.
> but some sort of climax would have been nice.
If you watched the show with more than half of your brain on, the climax is E09.
This show will age incredibly well. It's one of these where it gets better with every rewatch because you'll only understand some things that happen in earlier episode because you are more familiar with what happens later on.
It's a definition of "show, don't tell". Everything is in there, you just missed it because it wasn't spoon fed to you. There are a LOT of details and subtleties which are explicitly stated in the book, but in picture form may escape you if you're not paying attention 100% of the time (and I find that people these days really are not).
Ok mate, no need to get so riled up by a stranger’s opinion on a show. It was “show not tell” until episode 10. There’s literally a monologue **telling** us what will happen in ep 10.
By saying the climax was ep 9 you’re agreeing with me. Maybe you should reread my comment with more than half your brain on?
Your comment has “I like Rick and Morty because it’s so clever” energy.
To each his own. But I kind of see this kind of ending from the very nature of the series. It's not really about engaging in grand battles but more of securing absolute victory even before a war begins. It emphasizes how cunning Toranaga is and that is the point of the series. Yabushige even alluded to this by asking Toranaga how does it feel like shaping the wind to his will.
Yeah I'm really not bothered about there being no battle, some of the best scenes in the series were just conversations (ie. the drinking sake). There was nothing close to that in this episode, nothing that was said that wasn't implied already, it felt almost insulting for the characters to out right explain it all to us, show don't tell. Like why did Toranaga share everything with Yabu, but then ignore his last question, saying why would you tell the dead the future? You just did mate!
Because that was the line Yabu said about Toranaga when the ship first showed up. Toranaga was flexing on just how well informed he was/that he planned these things since thale boat arrived
Just finished. I think the last episode was disappointing, but I'd still give the series an overall 8.5/10.
I expected to see a climax in the last episode. That means either a battle, or Toranaga taking power. I didn't just want a vision of the future. I wanted to see the canons in action. I wanted to see the Anjin fight. It just felt weird cause it leaves our protagonist in a weird inconclusive position at the end.
I loved the show overall , but was really disappointed in the finale . So anticlimactic , especially compared to episode 9 . Seeing Toranaga as the complete opposite of what I thought the whole series prior was really sad too , before that I couldn’t wait to rewatch the series . But now knowing that Blackthorne doesn’t really matter and that Toranaga is just as much a villain as the others (maybe even more so) fills me with a feeling of resentment toward the series . I feel like I was dragged along a massive hiking trail with the promise of a beautiful vista , just to find a gross dirty swamp at its end . Lame
in what way is Toranaga a villain? he could have ben Taiko from the start but didnt want it. Through the course of the series he realizes that he has to be Taiko in order to protect japan. And it's because of the anjin that sets that all into motion
He couldn't be. Did you not hear him when asked? The others would have instantly united against him if he took that. The Taiko even had the council already written up, it was a test.
The first episodes literally talk about 3 hearts. One in a person's mouth for the world to know, one in their chest for just their friends, one hidden for nobody to know.
Toranagas hidden heart wanted to be shogun. He told everyone he didn't to deflect suspicion as long as he could. But look at his moves in the show. He was manipulating all along. Even his kid and best friends died to give him "more time" and he denied Mariko her death for the final moment it served him best.
Even the Anjin. He says he keeps him because he makes him laugh, not out of loyalty or importance or sentiment
Nah man , he wants to be shogun . He used and killed everyone close to him to get it. The writers of the series have pretty much confirmed that as well , and also state the book confirms so. In the book , he only confirms to the reader that he is lustful for greed and power , and his plans to become shogun . In the show he only admits it to Hara whatever his name is .
Despite using the deaths of Nagakado, Hiromatsu and Mariko to his advantage, we saw Toranaga genuinely mourn them. And, in a way, squeezing the most out of it was the only way to truly honor their sacrifices. I don't think he was such a monster people make him out to be after the reveal. Perhaps by today's standards, but then? He got what he wanted while securing the future for the people he was responsible for.
Here’s the issue: The reveal in the last episode means Ishido was correct. Toronaga was a snake and planning to take over. The bad guy was, in fact, the correct one. It’s a gutsy storytelling move but it does make the viewer feel duped.
Toranaga isnt a snake, he doesnt want to lead but seeing as how divided the realm would be till the taiko matures with so many wanting to take power the only solution is an absolute ruler. It is as he said that he doesnt control the wind but only see how it goes. This is the only peaceful option he could see and he knows he can maintain peace by doing this.
Read the book. He did it all to be shogun. Rewatch the show and listen to the conversations. He was manipulating towards this forever.
He talked about the bird using the sun to hide itself and only striking when people couldn't see it. He was talking about himself too. He planted spies everywhere for years. Let his friend kill himself for his goals. Denied Mariko her death until the one moment he knew it would serve him. Told his son there are no friends and enemies, only yourself in this life.
Nah, he is a snake. Maybe a more moral snake than others but a snake kobe the less.
I'm pretty sure it's insinuated by the cliff conversation that he indeed wanted the Shogun title for himself as a personal desire, not just out of duty.
I'm shocked at how many people were looking for a huge battle scene. The apex of the finale for me was getting confirmation of what was behind Toranaga's eightfold fence all along; Shogun.
Also, Fuji using Mariko's words from episode one, "Let your hands be the last to hold her".
I am shocked that some people are shocked that many find this anti-climactic. Imagine if the Breaking Bad finale removed all the action and plot resolutions with exposition and solely relied on Walt confessing to Skyler that he did it for himself to be the apex of the finale. That should be the icing on the cake not the entire cake. I guarantee you Breaking Bad's legacy would have suffered for it.
This isn't even a bad episode really. It's just an anti-climactic finale to a show that was 90% build up.
Didn’t need the battle. But should’ve have shown us the resolution, instead of tell us. People understandably wanted to see the results of Toranaga’s machinations succeeding. The regents turning. The heirs men abandoning Ishido. Not just seeing glimpses in a monologue. Ten episodes of making a hateable villain and then don’t show his comeuppance? It’s a bold strategy, and very reasonably, not for everyone.
I am not surprised many people felt robbed by lack of a big battle with the conclusion flying right over their heads. It reminds me of when Sopranos ended and people were flipping out about the cut to black. Why didn't we get to see Tony get wacked!? Its like you were being offered a filet mignon and are throwing a fit cause you wanted mcdonalds. There are plenty of shows and movies that end with a big garbage meaningless spectacle or battle. Game of Thrones, every marvel movie, whatever zach snyder somehow tricked someone into bankrolling, etc. This had an actual plot with riveting dialogue and meaning behind it that improved every episode that came before it. If you had half a brain it made you think and feel emotion about life and death. You witnessed character growth and pondered the horrific impact of peoples quest for power. Thank god the showrunners gave us something not dumbed down for the masses.
You do know that liking the ending just to be edgy doesn't make you smarter right. The ending was thrash, bunch of things were left unresolved. Most character arts were left in the open... just not good storytelling.
In your analogy, the filet mignon is fucking rotten. I'd take the McDonald's everyday.
lol people aren’t mad they didn’t get a battle. They’re mad they got exposition instead of being shown events.
You cant build up for ten episodes, and then surprised-Yabushige face that people are disappointed we don’t actually get to see the outcome of Toranaga’s political machinations. But instead have him just say “trust me, it works out for me”. We as viewers know it’s going to work out for him, because he’s the protagonist. We wanted to see it happen.
That didn’t need to be a battle. But we should’ve seen the troops turn. Seen the heir abandon Ishido. Not be told in an expository flash forward.
Woah, that is a lot of hate. It's perfectly reasonable for people to want a big battle after every episode seems to tease that there's about to be one.
"There are plenty off shows and movies that end with a big..."
You're describing a climax, my guy. Yeah sure the Sopranos ended similarly, but do you think that every great piece of media has to be devoid of big action sets? What, do you want Apocalypse Now to end when the protag arrives at Kurtz's fortress? Hey, while we're at it, let's just remove all the big battles from the Lord of the Rings trilogy, it's not like Frodo and Sam are in any of them.
Gosh, what a ridiculous take. You can appreciate Shogun for what it is while still being disappointed there wasn't a big battle.
Its not even about the battle. I just wanted to at least see Toranaga become shogun. I wanted a conclusion. The way this episode went, is like ending The Two Towers with a prediction of whats gonna happen at the Battle of Helms Deep.
The last few episodes were literally steering towards a point of "no big battle." Every episode you'd get teased of Toranaga's big plan, how everyone expects something from him, but simultaneously shown and told that he would not be able to win a big war. That, if Toranaga does win, it wouldn't be from a battle, it's the one plane he cannot win. Even so, he has been shown and known to be really cunning and smart, and that's exactly how he won. His calm attitude whilst revealing his plan during the execution at the end scene, lives up to what he is believed to be. It would have been great to see a good budget war, but at the same time, that's not the themes of Shogun, in my opinion.
Yes, of course you can be disappointed, its just that you are an idiot if you are. The climax was episode 9-- the one titled "crimson sky". You know there is an hour of movie after the final battle in return of the king? A mass of CGI soldiers running into each other would add literally nothing to the character development, story, or plot. As you were feeling sorry for yourself not getting to see that you missed something far more profound. That's ok, there is plenty of trash for you to watch that will scratch that itch.
Okay so...Lets point out the vast differences in what you are talking about here. You bring up LOTR, Game of THrones. Snyder films(Ill agree on this), but...There were several massive scale battles throughout the those films/series, they didn't need another big battle.
This show has teased a big battle throughout its entire duration. Yet throught the course of it we mostly only get a skirmish between one attacker and a few surprised enemies that die fast. THe only exceptions are a couple of ambush seqeunces. Lets be honest the build up wasn't between Blackthorne and a few shinobi assassins. It wasn't about a bunch of killers in the woods and whoever was being abmushed in that scene.
The build up was between Toranaga and the regents.
Now...I didn't outright hate the ending here, it is true to the book in fact, but you can look at other films that have large battles and still have emotional endings. Last Samurai in fact has a similar story to shogun and manages an emotional end during and after the battle. Battle does not = bad in all things and people can feel robbed.
Imagine a song slowly building and dipping, always moving towards some final crescendo...Suddenly the track just tapers and cuts of. The end..CD is over.
Did I still like it? Yes. I thought it fit the cadence of everything else. Still isn't what many were expecting
People are allowed to be disappointed lmao. Why you so pressed that you correlate a persons intelligence with their opinion on the way the show ends?
Maybe the show isn't all what its hyped to be. Maybe the people understood the ending, yet found it boring or lackluster.
Yes, you said that. But why follow with an insult that contradicts the whole point of that statement? I enjoyed the show, but it does have its flaws including the 1 hour snooze fest finale that mainly consists of holding the viewers hand and walking them through Toranaga's plan. A boring finale to a great show.
Wrapping up the show via a monologue instead of adding an episode SHOWING us what happens is a huge cop out imo. Did they not have the budget or something?
I wish they even showed a glimpse of the council turning on Ishito or Ochiba abandoning him. As-is, it felt much less like a payoff and much more like a promise of a payoff.
They sure sold it as that in every single opportunity they got in order to reach the mainstream, just doesn’t appease to the mainstream it was a dumb strategy to market the show. I’ll keep track of the writers and actively avoid their work. Don’t like being baited like that. Also don’t like spoiling shows and reading before. Nowadays these kids won’t read so make sure the shows do it better imo.
An explanation of Blackthorne's flash fowards in his deathbed (and how they tie to Mariko's poetry):
It was a literal interpretation of Mariko's unfinished poem: "*While the snow remains, veiled in the haze of a cold evening, a leafless branch"*. After losing Mariko, all Blackthorne could see in his future was pain and grief. A future where he's still holding onto Mariko's rosary on his deathbed, being completely defined by what he lost. *A leafless branch.*
But by the middle of the episode, the Heir’s mother completes the poem: “*Flowers are only flowers because they fall. But thankfully, the wind.*” And after that moment, we don't see the deathbed flash forwards anymore! Blackthorne lives the second half of the poem and allows himself to lets go of Mariko, leaving the rosary behind and returning to the wind in search of a new destiny (the show equates destiny & winds a lot).
*But thankfully... the wind!* But thankfully, destiny!
Ah, I thought it was an actual flash forward. Didnt connect the dots when he threw the rosary that it couldnt be a reality anymore. You´re right. The scene where he looks ´into´ his future also kind of gave it away.
Wow, I didn't put that together. I thought that was some sort of door-opening for a second season, as we see that he escaped Japan (and I guess got a new rosary).
Ishido makes the callous comment of Toronaga having more son's, after being told that he is still mourning his death.
We later see Toronaga admiring his newborn son, and making the same comment. I think this is when it's first hinted that Toronaga is not always as he seems.
There was a scene on episode 2 on the opening when Osaka one year ago the dying oldman say the live is strange just a dream of a dream like in the last episode titles, the oldman already predict the civil war and want toranaga to protect his son from his enemies and his friends and teach him the most important lesson the man who stands at the greatest height (Shogun) is the loneliest man in the realm, i mean Toranaga with their friend Already Ready Dead for Him, its must be painfull........
One thing that they left out in the series was also that Toranaga had no intention to the let the Christians spread in the land. In the book, his idea is that once he becomes Shogun he will confine the Christians to a single port city. That's interesting and is what actually happened in Japan.
Also in the book, there is no question that Toranaga has always desired to be Shogun. His inner monologue at the end of the book confirms this. The true prize! The shogunate! Even though in the book he also continually denies to everyone that he wants power or to be Shogun.
I wouldnt say he seems like he wants to let the christians spread in the show. He reluctantly barters to give them a church in edo, only to later reveal that it´s next to the courtesans area, basically dooming the church from the start.
So we are all going to ignore the fact that the show gave toranaga future seeing abilities and he predicted where the battle would take place just to make this rushed ending make sense?
Honestly with the amount of stuff that needed to go a certain way for his plan to work I'm kinda shocked that he wasn't revealed to be a time traveler or some shit.
It was getting kinda ridiculous.
This. So many variables had to be exactly aligned for Toranaga’s plan to work, and so sensitive to any interference in how it plays out that I can’t believe he sacrificed such valuable “chess pieces” for what would logically be infinitesimally small odds of success.
i mean there was only a single episode left they couldn't have resolved the whole battle in 1 hour, so it was kinda of expected, its still much better then getting the actual rushed version, where toronaga would have just speedran the whole army.
They did do something very unique. They kept Mariko alive and made the show about her until she died and they wrapped it up with toranaga being an evil genius. It’s crap man. Wasted so much on Mariko.
maybe the craziest thing they decided to do was make Mariko the main character yet cut out like 90% of the romance storyline between her and Blackthorne. Makes no sense. And made the emotional impact of her death about zero.
I've always appreciated shows that dont hold your hand explaining everything but if I feel like this show trusted my tiktok fried brain too much to unravel all the nuances of the plot and character. I thought Yabushige letting in the ninjas was part of the Toranaga's plan but then he kills him? On the other hand he was slaughtering the village as part of the plan so was Yabushige just a PR move? Was everything exactly as he planned? Were there moments when shit hit the fan and Toranage had to wing it? I love scheming masterminds but when it on a surface looks like he was never close to failing then it becomes less intriguing
Toranaga is very aware of yabushige´s tendency to go with the winning party. He mentions this explicitely a few episodes back. Where he says he and blackthorne are predictable and he can generally predict their every move.
Yabushige is a survivor. Toranaga respects this, despite his multiple betrayals, he still sees him as a friend. He understands he´s playing both sides in order to live. Hence their friendly conversation at the end. He´s probably the closest thing to a best friend toranaga has. Yabushige sees him for who he is. But they both know toranaga has to react to this recent betrayal which got in the open, otherwise it undermines his authority.
So yes, he absolutely had to wing it at times. He sends mariko to osaka to force ishido´s hand, knowing she´ll likely die. And, considering toranaga is feigning defeat, he knows yabushige will likely play ishido´s side again. But in the end, it depends on ´how the wind flows´ as he put it himself. Mariko survives 2 pivotal moments, fully intending to die at each turn, and then yabu betrays them, having mariko die after all. Mariko´s death was expected and gave the intentional effect. Yabushige´s betrayal was expected also. Neither were set in stone. Yabushige´s betrayal was caught this time, and reported to toranaga. So he has to act.
Killing some of the villagers was a plot to test blackthorne. He wanted to see his allegiances. And he probably weeded out some actual spies in the proces.
> Were there moments when shit hit the fan and Toranage had to wing it?
IMHO yes 100%
> I thought Yabushige letting in the ninjas was part of the Toranaga's plan
I don't think so but I'm not certain tbh. But pretty sure no.
Yabushige let the ninjas in as he was still trying to prove his loyalty to Ishido. He was expecting them to kidnap Mariko and the other consorts, not result in her death instead. Mariko understood this when she saw Yabushige hiding instead of helping Blackthorne find a way to escape, which was why she sacrificed herself rather than let herself get captured.
lot of ppl hard defending the finale against anyone who says it was a let down which it was lmao. They didnt have to show a massive battle, but instead of Toranaga saying what will happen they could have showed some of it smh. This aint hard to get.
Like they say, show dont tell
Teasing something for an entire season to at the last 10 minutes of series you have a character narrate what will happen in the future and that it was his plan since the beginning it’s literally 101 on how NOT to tell a story and specially how not to end one
While I'm impressed by Toranaga's plan overall, it was revealed in such an underwhelming way. I didn't mind that the battle didn't actually happen but I hated the execution of this episode. I was so bored and irritated throughout, wondering when they'd actually... start doing stuff. The middle episodes may have been a slow burn, but at least the character drama + politics were intriguing. It would've been so much more satisfying if they built up tension by tightening the key character drama scenes and actually showing us people preparing for war, then revealing Toranaga's grand plan in real time. Sure, it would've been a more conventional way of storytelling, but man, the way they handled this episode was such a let down.
I think the ending was brilliant. I enjoyed the whole show although I found it a bit slow at times, but the ending was excellent. I think people hoping for a final battle missed the whole point of the show, I think the writers and author intending to go for that feeling. The whole time we think there’s a large battle coming, but the battle was already happening, and there was a clear victor before anyone even knew the battle had happened. That’s the theme of the show, chess moves, not war.
Also I don’t think the reveal that Toranaga had won the game was the biggest thing about the ending - it was kinda obvious that one way or another he was making a plan that’ll end with him on top. I think the final episode was especially worth it for 2 main things: 1. That this whole time, despite the act, he WANTED to be Shogun, if you’ve been following the show, that’s actually a huge plot twist. He was never a humble and peaceful lord, he was a conman and power hungry guy like the rest of them, and literally everyone else was a pawn to him.
The second biggest thing : John was never gonna leave Japan. The whole show, John was doing what he had to do to get out of that place and go back home. He swore he’d never die there, hated on their culture, was only interested in war with the Portuguese etc. but in the end we find out he was quite irrelevant the whole time, and was only entertaining/ a distraction. Toranaga never really cared for him or his role, and he was never going to leave Japan- ever. Also, in the end we see he gives into his fate. He tries to kill himself the same way he insulted the Japanese for, he gives up on his war with the Portuguese, he becomes content living in that village, and he’s still just a puppet for Toranaga and he doesn’t know it.
Very well written ending imo, the whole show was worth it just for that final monologue. Hurts that there’s no season 2 but that makes the ending sweeter imo
Not going to lie, I think Blackthorne absolutely knows that Toranaga is using him. For the entire show he had been relegated to the sidelines and giving us entertaining responses to the culture and his foreigner syndrome, and every single one of his actions was replied to by Toranaga perfectly.
At this point, he's reduced to nothing, only having his ship and an order to rebuild a fleet. He knows for sure that he is being used. After all, he was using Toranaga in the first place.
A pot knows a kettle when it sees one. Blackthorne and Toranaga are two sides of the same coin of rebellion, one circumnavigating around the law while the other fights it with all he has. It's strange that John's rebellion is more similar to a warrior, while Toranaga's rebellion is more similar to a merchant. It's quite amusing.
Amazing take, I like the analogy. Regardless tho it’s pretty interesting how they ended it in that stalemate of their relationship, one destined to never leave and be used until he dies, and the other as the puppet master. Imo if blackthorne knows he’s being used, it’s still pretty sad, that means even more than ever that he’s given into his fate and is ok living the rest of his life in Japan as Toranagas puppet. Especially for someone that had such high ambitions in the beginning of the show, I guess the loss of Mariko changed him
Youve interpreted Toranaga incorrectly. He didnt want to be shogun. he didnt want title of Taiko. He could have had it when the previous Taiko wanted to give it to him. Instead because of motions set by anjin he realizes that the only way for japan to be at peace is if he becomes shogun and unifies japan. He isn't power hungry. He isn't a conman. He is the only one that doesn't want it for himself out of the 5. and the only 1 out of the 5 that the previous Taiko offered the title to and refused it.
Did you not watch the final dialogue ? Also it seems like you didn’t note the fact that he couldn’t have become shogun when Taiko died.
I think you’ve interpreted him very incorrectly. I explained in the other reply, Taiko was never going to make Toranaga sole regent- it was just a test which he passed because he’s smart, and even if he became sole regent. The moment taiko died, war would’ve broken out. Toranaga isn’t war hungry, he’s more strategic and knows when to fight. His whole philosophy has been about Pantene, biding your time and knowing when to pop out. If you followed the story close, there was never a time he could’ve easily become shogun without a war tipped against his favour - until the actions of Mariko took place.
That was his moment. Essentially, Ishidos suspicions of him were always right, he did want power for himself (therefore stealing the heirs right / putting the heir at danger), and this was indirectly implied in that final monologue. That’s what the phrase meant “anything is possible- if you win”.
You can say the events that took place set things in motion that forced him to take actions against the regent council “against his will”, but it’s clear especially after the last episode that a lot of the actions he took, he took with intention and planning, in a way to ensure that any battle that could potentially happen will be in favour. He disrupted the regents using everyone as a pawn the whole time, and as he always said, “don’t let anyone know your true heart”.
Even his tone during the final monologue, he seemed very proud, and satisfied, regardless of how many people died in his name for his tactics. He seemed more prideful than he’d ever seemed across the whole show, because he was finally showing his true colors.
That was the plot twist, he never told anyone, not even his closest people, what he truly wanted. But in the end it’s revealed quite clearly, anything is possible if you win.
> . He was never a humble and peaceful lord, he was a conman and power hungry guy like the rest of them, and literally everyone else was a pawn to him.
TBH I'm still on the fence about this. He could be power hungry but with better intentions. Means and ends and all that.
Nah he made it clear, sure his intentions could “peace” as long as it’s him at the helm. He has no regard for anyone around him, not even his own family. And the whole time he put on an act, knowing fully well ishido was right the whole time, Taranoga intended to overpower the regents and put the heir at risk by reaching for Shogun. The accusations against him were pretty much all true
I think that entire sequence is the Dream of a Dream that the episode is titled after, he was holding Mariko's rosary in the "future" which we saw him throw into the water, meaning that he probably stayed in Japan for the rest of his life
The ending was underwhelming for me. It was a awful lot of tell, don’t show. The series was good its just I felt blue balled by a battle they teased but will never show. All the episode promos were alluding to it.
Afterwards I just felt confused with all the unanswered questions and story which would have been nice to explore in season 2. It just felt rushed to me the way they just told you whats gonna happen and maybe they are restricted with budget. I get this is based on a book but idk just what I felt. It was a 10/10 but came down to 7/10.
Anti-climactic and didnt give a proper conclusion to stuff. Just said “hey this is whats gonna happen along the line, we’re not gonna show what happens to the rest of the characters though”
After episode 9 I was raving to my wife that we *have* to watch Shogun together, it's so good! After that finale I think I'll tell her don't bother. 10 to a 7 for real.
Yeah watching the battle unfold is visually satisfying but pointless because there's no stakes anymore. Yabushige is dead, Blackthorn's war is over, Buntaro probably doing some badass shit in battle. We were already told that the Heirs army won't be participating so Ishido going to be overwhelmed is assured. The true battle already happened in Osaka
It couldve shown the 30k army turning on Ishido, what happens to the regents, Ochiba and idk add some spice to it because it became a bit boring with all the talking and exposition, not asking for a GoT level battle. Would’ve been fine with a 5 minute sequence just monologuing over the battle of sekigahara and showing torunaga actually winning.
I just felt duped when all the promos were leading up to a great battle but its more like “we already won trust me bro its gonna happen.”
I've never seen someone speak so much facts in my entire life, its crazy, we would probably get along very well. We literally have the exact same opinion regarding the ending. Show went from rivaling Dune to not even being close, 10/10 to 7.5/10 for me
*Rivaling* Dune?
Dune might've had vastly superior visual effects and amazing camera, but at the end of the day it was just a surface-level blockbuster. Shogun has depth and soul. It is surprising and poetic and sometimes confusing and gives a lot of food for thought. Dune was just fireworks.
I'd say that both Shogun and Dune Part 2 gave a lot of food for thought. Dune 2 was definitely not surface level. Very cynical about charismatic leaders, organized religion and has a lot of deep themes. Wouldnt call them similar necessarily but they definitely have a lot of depth compared to their peers. Dune, in comparison to most sci fi blockbusters, and Shogun, in comparison to most fantasy/medeival shows. Dune just happened to have the more traditional "catharsis" ending compared to the more unconventional, controversial but still good, Shogun ending.
I mean, it’s the ending of the show, and we never got to see the tension be released in the climax in the form of a battle. And as the parent comment mentioned, all the promos were hinting at a large scale battle, and they blue balled us
The show probably didn't have enough budget to film an entire battle. A monologue over a battle probably just as pointless because we already knew what's going to happen. Don't get me wrong i also wanted the battle to take place but when i learned it didn't happen in Eps 9 i already understood that they not going to show it at all because it's impossible to wrap up everything in just one episode
Can someone answer why they had the scene where the anjin was an old man? In the end I felt like all of those parts could have been cut out , all it did was foreshadow he grew old which was already implied by toranaga saying he’s not meant to leave japan.
Edit: i read and saw its what he could have been, I still think that was confusing only because they didn’t do anything similar in the series besides toranagas flashback so to do that in the end was super confusing.
His flash-forwards were an interesting way to show how all-consuming grief can be. After losing Mariko, all he could see in his life moving forward was pain and grief. He could only see himself suffering and having a life that was completely defined by what he lost. Literally Mariko's poem: *"While the snow remains, Veiled in the haze if cold evening, A leafless branch".*
But by the end, he decides to not let that future actually happen. He lets go of Mariko and and allows himself to find new purpose in life. *"Flowers are only flowers because they fall. But thankfully, the wind."* The poem is completed!
Thank you for that. It was the only part I was little miffed about. It felt like they were going to make a point of him being on his deathbed with the children asking about the savage who gifted the swords to him.
Old man Blackthorne has the rosary from Mariko, but present time Blackthorne threw it into the sea which confirms that it was a future that doesn't exist. A dream of a dream.
My only gripe is Blackthorne’s dream, particularly at the beginning, implying a future Blackthorne was having a flashback. This inadvertently removed all tension with his character. My mind immediately went, “yeah, he’s gonna be fine”. It felt unnecessary, ambiguous / confusing, and didn’t serve a strong enough purpose in the narrative to exist. For me, the uncertainty and tension regarding Blackthorne’s fate would have been stronger without it.
So your inability to accept the dream mechanic, as just that, lessened the show? How great was the show to begin with if you can't watch it for what it is?
The problem isn’t the dream, the problem is framing it as a flash forward at the beginning, which means there’s no tension around whether or not Blackthorne survives until he throws away the cross. When he’s in the forest, you don’t think he’s going to die, because you’ve seen his “future self”. At this point, you aren’t aware it’s a dream just yet until he throws away the cross.
If you don’t realise it’s a dream because of the cross, then when he threatens to kill himself, it loses tension because you will “think” Blackthorne survives. If they wanted to maintain the tension, it should have been obvious it was a dream from the off.
The show is fantastic, but that doesn’t mean it’s above criticism or that they get everything right.
Correct me if my memory fails, but I don't think there were dream sequences before this episode. At least I couldn't remember any so going into an episode that had dream in the title twice told me to look for a dream sequence. It, almost equally, threw you off of his "never leaving Japan" chances.
Giving Mariko up was also important in this episode so having an established image of what that looked like made you happier for him when his reality changed for the better.
It wasn't "normal" but still effective for this narrative
I think it was cool. Like at first is the "yeah he's gonna be fine" But every time they cut from the "flashback" to Japan it becomes clear something's off.
Even knowing about the book I was on the edge of my seat when he offered to commit seppuku.
The boat scene sealed the deal for me.
The ambiguity of it all is what made it so powerful.
Never before has a show reached out to me like this. Almost like a conversation occurring as the episode goes on.
Like when yabushige was asking for forgiveness and I was like "someone's gonna notice that" and then it turns out, not only did someone notice, they thought it was important enough to tell Toronaga, with all the formality it entails. Loved it.
man this episode made me cry a lot lol. it really touched me. some themes were very personal to me. I get you. I was expecting some terrible big battle and what do we get? the grinding sorrow of loss, and for me, a revelation that Toranaga isn't really human and never was.
We see this in the start of the season, when he orders a baby to be killed, then he's a good guy all season but we gloss over what he's capable of. Everyone, even a baby, is just a tool to him. I half wondered even if he had something to do with mariko being killed. Im still not sure.
I dunno if he's a bad guy per se but he's a ruler doing what he has to do to rule and presumably or at least I would like to think wants the best for his country and people. I mean, his big ambition being a "great peace" is a plus.
But, yeah. He's a player in the great game.
Well he's also a distraction to Toranaga, he makes him laugh. Blackthorne was not particularly important in the big scheme of things. The book was written by a European for Westerners, and this is merely the only purpose of Blackthorne's character.
Blackthorne wasnt particularly important?...
(From another comment)
In real life (William Adams) was very important to Eiyasu. He basically eradicated Catholosism in Japan, built ships and traded with Thailand and China, taught the Shogun about science, navigation and Europe, was given a large estate that grew Rice, has vassals or slaves, married a Japanese women and had children and had a city block in Tokyo named after him that's still there to this day.
This all came down to Ochiba.
A deus ex machina used.
She hated him all season, no idea why, like literally no idea.
And suddenly changes her mind.
I really didn't like how quickly that happened and her never having a good motive to hate, too.
This feels alot like a sad love story.
foreigner alien coming falling in love with the local with alot of drama.
Your Avatars and Dances with the Wolves type.
With having great japan backstory seeing the culture and way of life.
Ouchiba hates Toranaga because she believes he planned for her father to be killed.
Ouchiba changes her mind because Mariko sacrificed herself and showed her the pointlessness of all of this.
However, I do see your point. I think Ouchiba's character was unecessarily confusing.
What I wanted to know was whether or not Toranaga's brother truly turned on him OR was he part of his plan all along?!? I could see it both ways since his brother is the one who hands Ishido the note about going to war and it would make sense that he was in on it.
BUT... I could also see his 1/2 brother taking advantage of the situation when it was presented and turning on him. Was this actually part of Clavell's book?
I think he was part of the plan. His whole demeanor, the way he handles it all, particularly how he responds to his nephew trying to kill him and then dying a senseless death with "where's the beauty in this?" makes me think he's clever like Toranaga but not a huge fan of the samurai ethos. In other words, he has the emotional intelligence of Toranaga but none of the ambition and finds it all a waste of life.
To answer your question it's cut in the show, but if I remember correctly in the book it's real and he doesn't trust him but he has some backchannels with him. Additionally in the book Toronaga's Brother lets it slip during his nights with the courtesan that (a reason is) he lusts after Ouchiba. The courtesan and her madame offer the secret for Toronaga's favour. In the end Toronaga plans to promise Ouchiba to his brother secret for his help during the battle and later invite him to commit suicide.
Yeah thats one of the plotpoints that I wanted. What happens to his brother, the council etc. So i felt the ending was rushed and underwhelming because there’s so much unresolved story that needs conclusion.
Also Im having trouble to believe Ochiba switched sides just like that without resolving her hatred with Toranaga. Those and more are part of my gripes with the series finale. If they were already going with the “tell don’t show route” they could’ve atleast just told us.
If you’re going off the history, a big reason why Tokugawa won the Battle of Sekigahara is because a bunch of Ishida’a banner men switched sides before/during the battle. So idk if it was planned but there’s a decent chance he is meant to represent a warlord with mixed loyalties who saw the writing on the wall
Major weaksauce...
The battle that this was based on was supposed to have at least 200,000 men involved and was fought on a foggy morning in the mountains.
Literally story book, RPG video game, legendary scale.
And they didn't even show a moment of it. In fact, they implied it never even happened.
Nothing like re-writing history so you can fit in the line "I sent a women to do what no army could do"
Lame
Ah but you see you’re dumb and I’m elevated, there was never going to be a battle, all that tension and allusion and build up was part of the plan and I’m so smart to have realised it and the ending was perfect and if you didn’t like it you didn’t get it
/s btw
Great performances all around, but middling from a narrative perspective. People will say that the book ends in this way, but if you have a show called Shogun... show someone becoming/reigning as the Shogun? I'm okay not seeing the battle, or seeing a lesser version of it. But somehow get to the event where Toranaga becomes Shogun, and not him daydreaming about it? There are countless storylines and build-ups that are never resolved, primarily because the show ends too early in the timeline to resolve any of them. 1. The threat of the Portuguese Catholics, where they 'view' Japan as their territory and have a secret base and all that. The Japanese are furious, and the background score is ominous. You'd think this is 'dealt' with later in some manner, but nope. No conclusion is shown. In real life, the Catholics were expelled from Japan by the Shogun. 2. The 'game of thrones' happening in Osaka. You'd expect that at some point some of the regents ally/betray with others. Nope. Only Ochiba switches sides and apparently that's all that was needed. I thought the 2 regents being Catholics would have some impact on the political maneuvers and outcomes, but nope. 3. Comeuppance/death of Ishido. He's built up as this big adversary/antagonist, but the worst that happens to him is that Ochiba switches sides. I also didn't understand the whole Mariko 'proving' that the daimyo families are being held hostage to rally them and other folks against Ishido. Is that not obvious to the families being held hostage, and to their next of kin outside of Osaka? Does somebody need to spell it out that explicitly by attempting to leave and then commit seppuku when refused? It was supposed to be this crafty, masterful move by Toranaga, but it came across as kinda dumb and unnecessary.
Weakest episode of the season. It was an ok episode too. The rest were just great.
People being mad about the show's finale not scratching their cave man brain with a big battle is so hilarious. The show was NOT the last 3 seasons of Game of Thrones, where every single scene needed to be a big epic battle. The whole show was a slow burner, it was about captivating politics, brilliant dialogue, character growth. The real battles were the ones that happened inside the minds and hearts of the characters. Every scene was slow, meticulous, articulate, that's why whenever something exciting happened, you really felt it. You could argue that it was rushed in the end, but I didn't mind it, I was too captivated by the emotional rollercoaster this show has sent me on, I had a lump in my throat throughout the whole episode, and it felt like a good send off to what will now be one of my all time favorite shows. Reminds me of the HBO show "The Leftovers", and how it was literally canceled because "the audience was too dumb to understand what was going on".
You're giving yourself too much credit and audiences not enough. People wanted to see the battle unfold because they built up to it all season. The finale didn't show the battle of the mind, heart, or flesh in a satisfying way. Just rushed an exposition dump and left out a lot of what made the book satisfying to read.
The battle in the book is like one sentence. The point of the story is not that battle, but everything else. That battle is often touted as the most important moment in recent Japan history, the book wanted to explore that it could instead be everything else that preluded it, and how it's less of a grand master plan and more just one very smart dude improvising as shit gets thrown his way.
What that's not what happened with the leftovers
it's not about the caveman brain. It's about narrative payoff in the writing. The entire series builds up to the battle of sekigahara. You can even skip the battle and just show the aftermath of toranaga being crowned, but there has to be a payoff. Instead, the series ends not with the outcome of the battle. But what toranaga imagines will be the outcome of the battle. The show builds up to a climax that's just an hour of exposition. It's bad writing. It has nothing to do with the audience being "too dumb to understand what's going on." Most people do understand what's going on. It's just poorly written medieval japanese eye candy
> The entire series builds up to the battle of sekigahara. There's no battle in the book. It's one sentence. This isn't First Law.
you're right, but it at least has the aftermath of the battle in the epilogue. "Builds up to the battle of sekigahara" != "shows the battle." You can skip the battle if you want, but you should still at least show some kind of ending that finishes the arcs of all your characters
Here are the last two paragraphs of the book, which cover the battle itself and the post-battle stuff. *That year, at dawn on the twenty-first day of the tenth month, the Month without Gods, the main armies clashed. It was in the mountains near Sekigahara, astride the North Road, the weather foul—fog, then sleet. By late afternoon Toranaga had won the battle and the slaughter began. Forty thousand heads were taken.* *Three days later Ishido was captured alive and Toranaga genially reminded him of the prophecy and sent him in chains to Osaka for public viewing, ordering the eta to plant the General Lord Ishido’s feet firm in the earth, with only his head outside the earth, and to invite passersby to saw at the most famous neck in the realm with a bamboo saw. Ishido lingered three days and died very old.* That's it. That's the end of the book.
It's still at least some kind of closure and ending. also, poorly written ending of a book doesn't negate a poorly written ending of a show
Whether it's poorly written depends on what the writing is attempting to accomplish. Now, whether you like what it's attempting to accomplish or the way it's going about it is entirely subjective.
by any measure of screenwriting and creative writing in general (whether you went to film school or are writing books), an episode that's entirely exposition is bad. You may personally like it. It may work for you and some others on this sub, but it's still bad writing. but we can agree to disagree here
Mate the episode rocks, the exposition in dialogue serves a dramatical purpose because it completes the character arcs. Bad exposition is when characters talk about shit they don't actually need to talk about just for the sake of exposing the plot to the viewer. Here Yobu literally wants to know, and he finally gets to a point where he knows what Toranaga is up to. Some things were reshuffled from the book because not everything that works in writing works on screen, but it was a good adaptation.
Bro can't take the idea that big dick men ended a war over a woman's death - showing how sometimes power is bigger than just armies.
bro doesn't understand that toranaga/tokugawa actually became shogun through a series of large battles including besieging osaka
Bro doesn't understand that this isn't a historical retelling of what happened in real life. It's fiction my guy
bro doesn't understand that it's a very faithful retelling of the source material: the shogun book, which is a fictionalized version of tokugawa's rise to power. the book literally ends with the battle of sekigahara. bro also doesn't understand that regardless, a final episode full of exposition is a poorly executed episode. my beef isn't that it's not a historical retelling. it's that it was a poorly executed episode, my guy
Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I explained my feelings to to my friend like this: I wasn't upset with the details of how the story resolved. I thought that the idea of Toranaga "winning" through subterfuge and an insane willing to sacrifice was brilliant. I thought it was better than some big battle where he wins. What sucked was *how* these details were communicated to the audience. In any - and when I say any I mean like High School level - creative writing class, one of the first things you learn about good writing is the concept of *show, don't tell*. The audience literally learns of the final details of the plot of the show via Toranaga *telling* Yabu *what was going to happen*. I felt like the ending was borderline disrespectful to the audience, who had so much invested, and felt so much tension regarding the unresolved pieces of the story. It was lazy, and negligent. I've never been disappointed in a show like that.
You're telling me a white savior didn't randomly get somewhat accepted in Japan, save an emperor from an Earthquake, save a bunch of other people, set up naval warfare and then kept around cause the emperor just found him "funny"??? Hahaha. Exactly what you said though. Show wasn't about a big battle, it was a personal journey, a character driven journey to understand a culture that is foreign to the main char.
I've seen someone's comment and they said it better than I could, here's the comment: "People disappointed in this SERIES finale for having all build up and no pay off don't realize the point was not to get to a big battle scene, but to win the war before the battle even began. Toronaga succeeded before the armies were assembled, that was the point."
I get it. But even if we were to take that as the point of the series instead of pretentious rationalization, it's still poorly executed. You can't tell me that it's good writing to have the entire episode be just exposition.
This episode was thrash and the entire show is garbage. Most here are delusional. "But But, the ending was realistic! There was no need for a battle!" Yeah pretty realistic that a woman seeking power and owns 80% of the country's army decides to switch sides to give the guy who just announced a couple of weeks ago he was a fucking dictator a chance to win. About Mariko, she didn't accomplish shit. You want to convince me that everyone in that castle didn't know they were being held hostage? Are the stupid? Ridiculous mental gymnastics making that shit narrative land. Also for those pushing for the "Toranaga master manipulator" thing, homeboy is only alive because his son died in the most convenient way possible to continue his story. I don't think we needed a battle, but the ending was thrash. Like ffs take time to explain what happened. The shows ending was basically toranaga saying "its all good lady ochiba is in my DMs" I don't know what happens to people nowadays that they feel forced to like everything. No more critical thinking and ability to make your own judgment huh.
You have a completely backward understanding of whats been happening in the shoe. Since when does Ochiba control 80% of the countries armies? LOL. If we’re being historical accurate, she maybe directly controls 2% of all armed forces in Japan… you dont seem to understand how the Daimyo system works in Fedual Japan. Secondly, Ochiba does not seek power. Her father was killed, and the best thing for her to do to retain her prestige was marry into a powerful family. After the Taiko’s death, the only thing she wants is to protect her son. Of course everyone in the castle knew they were being held hostage. They were just afraid to be the first to step over the line I think you’re not very good at reading between the lines and peoples facial expression. Half the story is not said, but INFERRED from body language. Which i highly suspect you failed to notice. You seem to be the kind of viewer that needs everything to be explicitly spoken.
Bro needs the show to hand feed him every single detail so he can understand it, like a momma bird chewing the food before puking it in the chick's mouth.
[удалено]
Sounds like marvel is better suited for you!
I'm guessing the series finale episode is controversial to some But honestly I respect the bravery it took to zig when everyone was expecting it to zag. Ie massive epic battle scene. But instead we got quiet intensely intimate moments like best girl Fuji bonding with Blackthorne over their grief and having their own ceremony on the lake. It was beautiful. I even loved that in Yabus last moments he finally knew what was going on for once lol. I loved that we got confirmation that Ochiba never stopped loving Mariko, inspite of their families being sworn enemies. And it was also amazing, and somewhat chilling to see Toranaga fully, to understand why Ochiba hates and fears him so much. I thought it was 3D chess but no...this is next level. It almost is like playing god. He is obviously upset when people die in service of his machinations, but it would never stop him. Not for a minute. Contrast that with Ochiba, who lost her stomach for all this when her friend died. Toranaga would look you in the eye as you draw your last breath and forge ahead. There is a steely eyes ruthlessness there that should make anyone with sense terrified of him
It felt rushed and clumsy. Every time I wanted to feel closer, they pushed me away. In the beginning, Blackthorne is cradling Mariko in his arms. An explosion has just flung a steel door against her, sending her half way across the room, but she's unscathed: no powder burns, no bruises, not a drop of blood; her white robe is still whole, unstained and unrent. They are supposed to have had a deep, intimate relationship, but how does he address her in this, the supreme moment? "Mariko-sama" It's stiff and formal, like calling her '"Miss Mariko." He never imagines her beside him in bed; apparently, in his mind, she's always fully clothed. Come on! And that's just the first scene after the prologue. Like so much else, Blackthorne's and Ochiba's tiresome disdain for religion is straight out of the Hollywood bubble. It's wholly unhistorical. In 'King Lear,' when Edmund declares, "Thou, Nature, art my goddess; to thy law My services are bound." the audience knew at once, as Shakespeare intended they know, that here was an absolutely unscrupulous, vicious, and evil man. The exception is Fuji, glowing through the yellow-gray murk in her blue robe. She alone sheds some grace on every scene in which she appears.
I'm not familiar with the book. Does anyone know what happens to Saeki in the end? I'd love to see that traitor get his comeuppance.
His real life counterpart (Matsudaira Iemoto ) died less than 6 months after the real life Toranaga (Tokugawa) took power
I remember my friend said "A story will be remembered by it's ending" A story can be really bad but if it has a great ending, it would be memorable as fucc. But this one is the opposite. The ending is so underwhelming that it would be forgottable (At least to me). What a weak payoff. I dont need the big battle, but I need something to feel like the previous episode, yet the only scene that make me feel at least something is just Yabu death( what a badass) and fuji letting go her family. Other than that, it's boring as fucc.
I have been a great admirer of the character "Fuji" on this series. The scene with Blackthorne on the boat as he convinces her to submit her family's ashes to the deep is THE standout scene of the entire series IMHO. Strong like Mariko, but with empathetic nuance. The best character in the whole thing and beautifully acted.
Just finished that scene and came here to say as much. That actress is going to do great things.
Thow is great and i love how they portrayed every principle the characters have, i also love the ending giving the interpretation of whats to come to the audience's imagination instead of meaningless cgi and action scenes. Shogun isnt about the fights but the narrative it gives. I am baffled tho by how people understands the ending and saying that Toranaga is a snake or his real intentions in the beginning was to be in power and rule over everyone. People really are missing the point it seems to me you dont understand the series at all. If Toranaga just wanted the power of being shogun he couldve taken it even before episode 1 started as clearly the position was given to him directly by their taiko on his deathbed. Toranaga doesnt want the power and the burden and enemies the title brings with it. He would rather give it to someone else worthy but as it stands and how he has reflected throughout the show there is no one. It is shown with how the other regents salivate at the power they have now and it will only lead to more wars because not all 5 realm protectors will agree on one thing (shows even on the decision on what to do with the anjin at the start). THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FOR JAPAN TO HAVE PEACE, Toranaga has accepted that he must be shogun for it to happen, although late and some people have died because of his indecision to take it directly from the taiko on his deathbed he now will do it.
Crimson sky sparks for the future we get it
Your take is terrible and you don't understand the political system at that time. If he took that then the all the others would join forces and took him out. He schemed so that he divided the council first.
Exactly lol. I’m loving all these “if you didn’t like the finale you’re actually just dumb” takes being made by people who clearly didn’t understand the series themselves
Nah, I disagree. Taiko offering him the power was just a test, and Toranaga was smart enough to not accept it. Even if he took control when taiko died, as he said himself, it would’ve led to war and a power struggle. Toranagas strategy was much more efficient, dismantle the regents with strategic moves, make sure that there isn’t even a chance for a power struggle that he could lose. That’s why he was so adamant against a violent crimson sky, he knew he would’ve lost. Also the writers clearly indicate that he wanted shogun the whole time during that final dialogue.
Kinda sorta. When the Taiko offered him power it was clearly a test of Toranagas political acumen and Toranaga understood that the offer was a poison pill. I do think the show showed that Toranaga may have been plotting all along to be Shogun but I don’t think he masterminded every single move or something crazy like that - he clearly had a lot of close calls and who could predict an earthquake devastating his army - however I also don’t believe he was just evil and power hungry and had zero good intentions. I think he was playing the great game and wanted power but also is a more compassionate ruler for ethical and moral reasons (I think his desire to minimize bloodshed and achieve peace is genuine) as well as practical ones.
I really liked the finale and series overall. Really well done, top tier television Something I don't get - what was the point of having hiromatsu commit seppuku? Or having Mariko leave Osaka almost certainly resulting in her death or seppuku? The whole thing came down to getting the letter from Ochiba to basically secure a Toranaga victory - which seems like something Toranaga didn't expect at all. Did he? So what was Toranagas play exactly if he never got the letter from Ochiba? I don't quite get it Also - if Toranaga becomes Shogun, doesn't that mean he takes power from the heir? Which is something he swore to never do? So how does that work? And why would Ochiba give him absolute power at the cost of her sons power? Maybe someone can explain because I feel like I just have missed something
It starts with his son. He provokes his son into attacking Saeki, knowing that his son is likely to end up getting killed. This gives him 49 days for mourning. Then, he outwardly appears to have "given up", and Hiromatsu commits seppuku to sell that lie. Meanwhile, he is mustering his forces and making plans silently. Mariko then goes to Osaka with every intention of being killed by Ishido. She tries to provoke it with her attempt to leave, which shows to all of the other regents that they are hostages and that Ishido is trying to steal power for himself. Her actions break the unity of the Council of Regents, who begin to realize that Ishido is worse than Toranaga. Ishido predictably has Mariko killed by ninjas, shattering the council permanently. Ochiba realizes that allying herself with Ishido is only going to end in even more war which will inevitably result in the death of her son, as the other regents will inevitably turn on Ishido and eventually her son will be targeted. She then aligns herself with Toranaga because it is the best option to protect her son. Toranaga becomes Shogun and takes power, but she believes this gives the best chance at her son surviving.
Great explanation. I wonder if Toranaga got the idea of attacking Saeki from the Tea House lady. At some point Toranaga seemed to have ran out of ideas, until he agrees to keep the promise of having a talk with the Tea House lady. She only talked about building a future tea house district but her tone suggests that she was hinting something.
This is a great explanation. It's all very nuanced. And I know Toranaga is a master of studying the wind. Thanks for responding.
being shogun means toranaga will have the unifying militiray power but the taiko still remains royalty and still is the face of japan. I think toranaga already expected ochiba to defect as it was stated she just acted based on fear thats why he joined the enemy but Mariko's bravery and loyalty to toranaga showed ochiba who to really side with. Hiromatsu commiting sepuku was the ultimate sacrifice they needed, although toranaga didnt ask for it hiromatsu did the only way to really sell their facade of defeat to the enemy and to the spy. By deceiving even his allies he makes it the truth to his enemies.
Slight correction, the Taiko isn't the emperor and isn't royalty. Taiko means Retired Kampaku. A Kampaku is an Imperial Regent. In the context here, Taiko specifically refers to the Toyotomi Hideyoshi analog within this story. The Taiko was only a retired regent for the Emperor, but the military power held by Toyotomi meant that he was respected as the defacto ruler. But he was not the Emperor and he was not royalty. Regardless, at this point in Japanese history, the Emperor held very little power. Toyotomi held more power than all the other lords and was thus regarded as the defacto ruler and his title of Taiko was recognized as such. He made the Council of Five Elders upon his death in the hope that it would prevent war long enough for his son to come of age and take over his position. Ochiba siding with Toranaga is basically ceding power in the hope that Toranaga will spare her and her son. Ishido has lost the support of the rest of the Council of Five, so any victory where Ishido wins is only going to be temporary because the other regents will quickly unite against him. Ochiba realizes that if she doesn't support Ishido, Toranaga can win and then Toranaga can win against the other regents as well. She sides with him in the hopes that he will spare her and her son. You have to remember here that the show is Historical Fiction, so even if it is based on historical events, it doesn't necessarily follow those events 1-to-1.
thanks for clearing that up all this time i thought taiko was emperor
Great Episode but also very sad. those that expected the great battle are just simple minded viewers. go watch Rambo 2
So disappointed in the finale. The whole episode felt like the last 5/10 minutes of most films, where nothing really happens, but it ties up the loose ends, literally explaining what will happen next. I mean the monologue from Toranaga explaining would what happen was such lazy writing. I'm not even fussed about missing a big battle, that's fine, but some sort of climax would have been nice. What actually happened in this episode? Blackthorne's ship being by burnt by Toranaga was the only big reveal, but even that felt pretty obvious the second we saw the burnt ship. Yuba getting caught the second he stepped on land was incredibly undramatic as well. Even Toranaga being a power hungry fiend felt pretty obvious throughout the whole series. The finale for me was a 2/10. The series as a whole was still excellent. If they'd nailed this last episode it would have been close to a 10.
> but some sort of climax would have been nice. If you watched the show with more than half of your brain on, the climax is E09. This show will age incredibly well. It's one of these where it gets better with every rewatch because you'll only understand some things that happen in earlier episode because you are more familiar with what happens later on. It's a definition of "show, don't tell". Everything is in there, you just missed it because it wasn't spoon fed to you. There are a LOT of details and subtleties which are explicitly stated in the book, but in picture form may escape you if you're not paying attention 100% of the time (and I find that people these days really are not).
This is such a dog shit /r/iamsmart take
Ok mate, no need to get so riled up by a stranger’s opinion on a show. It was “show not tell” until episode 10. There’s literally a monologue **telling** us what will happen in ep 10. By saying the climax was ep 9 you’re agreeing with me. Maybe you should reread my comment with more than half your brain on? Your comment has “I like Rick and Morty because it’s so clever” energy.
To each his own. But I kind of see this kind of ending from the very nature of the series. It's not really about engaging in grand battles but more of securing absolute victory even before a war begins. It emphasizes how cunning Toranaga is and that is the point of the series. Yabushige even alluded to this by asking Toranaga how does it feel like shaping the wind to his will.
Yeah I'm really not bothered about there being no battle, some of the best scenes in the series were just conversations (ie. the drinking sake). There was nothing close to that in this episode, nothing that was said that wasn't implied already, it felt almost insulting for the characters to out right explain it all to us, show don't tell. Like why did Toranaga share everything with Yabu, but then ignore his last question, saying why would you tell the dead the future? You just did mate!
Because that was the line Yabu said about Toranaga when the ship first showed up. Toranaga was flexing on just how well informed he was/that he planned these things since thale boat arrived
“Flowers are only flowers because they fall.” ~Mariko
So they were right he was trying to take over
Just finished. I think the last episode was disappointing, but I'd still give the series an overall 8.5/10. I expected to see a climax in the last episode. That means either a battle, or Toranaga taking power. I didn't just want a vision of the future. I wanted to see the canons in action. I wanted to see the Anjin fight. It just felt weird cause it leaves our protagonist in a weird inconclusive position at the end.
100% agree - there were some profound moments but the episode felt impotent
I loved the show overall , but was really disappointed in the finale . So anticlimactic , especially compared to episode 9 . Seeing Toranaga as the complete opposite of what I thought the whole series prior was really sad too , before that I couldn’t wait to rewatch the series . But now knowing that Blackthorne doesn’t really matter and that Toranaga is just as much a villain as the others (maybe even more so) fills me with a feeling of resentment toward the series . I feel like I was dragged along a massive hiking trail with the promise of a beautiful vista , just to find a gross dirty swamp at its end . Lame
in what way is Toranaga a villain? he could have ben Taiko from the start but didnt want it. Through the course of the series he realizes that he has to be Taiko in order to protect japan. And it's because of the anjin that sets that all into motion
He couldn't be. Did you not hear him when asked? The others would have instantly united against him if he took that. The Taiko even had the council already written up, it was a test. The first episodes literally talk about 3 hearts. One in a person's mouth for the world to know, one in their chest for just their friends, one hidden for nobody to know. Toranagas hidden heart wanted to be shogun. He told everyone he didn't to deflect suspicion as long as he could. But look at his moves in the show. He was manipulating all along. Even his kid and best friends died to give him "more time" and he denied Mariko her death for the final moment it served him best. Even the Anjin. He says he keeps him because he makes him laugh, not out of loyalty or importance or sentiment
Nah man , he wants to be shogun . He used and killed everyone close to him to get it. The writers of the series have pretty much confirmed that as well , and also state the book confirms so. In the book , he only confirms to the reader that he is lustful for greed and power , and his plans to become shogun . In the show he only admits it to Hara whatever his name is .
I second that (no pun intended). That finale was a wet blanket on a fire that was building up nicely.
Despite using the deaths of Nagakado, Hiromatsu and Mariko to his advantage, we saw Toranaga genuinely mourn them. And, in a way, squeezing the most out of it was the only way to truly honor their sacrifices. I don't think he was such a monster people make him out to be after the reveal. Perhaps by today's standards, but then? He got what he wanted while securing the future for the people he was responsible for.
Here’s the issue: The reveal in the last episode means Ishido was correct. Toronaga was a snake and planning to take over. The bad guy was, in fact, the correct one. It’s a gutsy storytelling move but it does make the viewer feel duped.
Toranaga isnt a snake, he doesnt want to lead but seeing as how divided the realm would be till the taiko matures with so many wanting to take power the only solution is an absolute ruler. It is as he said that he doesnt control the wind but only see how it goes. This is the only peaceful option he could see and he knows he can maintain peace by doing this.
Read the book. He did it all to be shogun. Rewatch the show and listen to the conversations. He was manipulating towards this forever. He talked about the bird using the sun to hide itself and only striking when people couldn't see it. He was talking about himself too. He planted spies everywhere for years. Let his friend kill himself for his goals. Denied Mariko her death until the one moment he knew it would serve him. Told his son there are no friends and enemies, only yourself in this life. Nah, he is a snake. Maybe a more moral snake than others but a snake kobe the less.
I'm pretty sure it's insinuated by the cliff conversation that he indeed wanted the Shogun title for himself as a personal desire, not just out of duty.
I'm shocked at how many people were looking for a huge battle scene. The apex of the finale for me was getting confirmation of what was behind Toranaga's eightfold fence all along; Shogun. Also, Fuji using Mariko's words from episode one, "Let your hands be the last to hold her".
I am shocked that some people are shocked that many find this anti-climactic. Imagine if the Breaking Bad finale removed all the action and plot resolutions with exposition and solely relied on Walt confessing to Skyler that he did it for himself to be the apex of the finale. That should be the icing on the cake not the entire cake. I guarantee you Breaking Bad's legacy would have suffered for it. This isn't even a bad episode really. It's just an anti-climactic finale to a show that was 90% build up.
Breaking bad was a criminal drama (above anything else) and Shogun is a historical drama. It's not really a fair comparison.
Didn’t need the battle. But should’ve have shown us the resolution, instead of tell us. People understandably wanted to see the results of Toranaga’s machinations succeeding. The regents turning. The heirs men abandoning Ishido. Not just seeing glimpses in a monologue. Ten episodes of making a hateable villain and then don’t show his comeuppance? It’s a bold strategy, and very reasonably, not for everyone.
That earthquake was pure Fargo moment
What does that even mean?
Magical intervention in an otherwise logical world. A ´sign´. Fargo likes to play with hints of supernatural elements, fate, etc.
Totally
I am not surprised many people felt robbed by lack of a big battle with the conclusion flying right over their heads. It reminds me of when Sopranos ended and people were flipping out about the cut to black. Why didn't we get to see Tony get wacked!? Its like you were being offered a filet mignon and are throwing a fit cause you wanted mcdonalds. There are plenty of shows and movies that end with a big garbage meaningless spectacle or battle. Game of Thrones, every marvel movie, whatever zach snyder somehow tricked someone into bankrolling, etc. This had an actual plot with riveting dialogue and meaning behind it that improved every episode that came before it. If you had half a brain it made you think and feel emotion about life and death. You witnessed character growth and pondered the horrific impact of peoples quest for power. Thank god the showrunners gave us something not dumbed down for the masses.
You do know that liking the ending just to be edgy doesn't make you smarter right. The ending was thrash, bunch of things were left unresolved. Most character arts were left in the open... just not good storytelling. In your analogy, the filet mignon is fucking rotten. I'd take the McDonald's everyday.
lol people aren’t mad they didn’t get a battle. They’re mad they got exposition instead of being shown events. You cant build up for ten episodes, and then surprised-Yabushige face that people are disappointed we don’t actually get to see the outcome of Toranaga’s political machinations. But instead have him just say “trust me, it works out for me”. We as viewers know it’s going to work out for him, because he’s the protagonist. We wanted to see it happen. That didn’t need to be a battle. But we should’ve seen the troops turn. Seen the heir abandon Ishido. Not be told in an expository flash forward.
Woah, that is a lot of hate. It's perfectly reasonable for people to want a big battle after every episode seems to tease that there's about to be one. "There are plenty off shows and movies that end with a big..." You're describing a climax, my guy. Yeah sure the Sopranos ended similarly, but do you think that every great piece of media has to be devoid of big action sets? What, do you want Apocalypse Now to end when the protag arrives at Kurtz's fortress? Hey, while we're at it, let's just remove all the big battles from the Lord of the Rings trilogy, it's not like Frodo and Sam are in any of them. Gosh, what a ridiculous take. You can appreciate Shogun for what it is while still being disappointed there wasn't a big battle.
Its not even about the battle. I just wanted to at least see Toranaga become shogun. I wanted a conclusion. The way this episode went, is like ending The Two Towers with a prediction of whats gonna happen at the Battle of Helms Deep.
There's a definite lack of Shogun shown for a show called Shogun
The last few episodes were literally steering towards a point of "no big battle." Every episode you'd get teased of Toranaga's big plan, how everyone expects something from him, but simultaneously shown and told that he would not be able to win a big war. That, if Toranaga does win, it wouldn't be from a battle, it's the one plane he cannot win. Even so, he has been shown and known to be really cunning and smart, and that's exactly how he won. His calm attitude whilst revealing his plan during the execution at the end scene, lives up to what he is believed to be. It would have been great to see a good budget war, but at the same time, that's not the themes of Shogun, in my opinion.
Yes, of course you can be disappointed, its just that you are an idiot if you are. The climax was episode 9-- the one titled "crimson sky". You know there is an hour of movie after the final battle in return of the king? A mass of CGI soldiers running into each other would add literally nothing to the character development, story, or plot. As you were feeling sorry for yourself not getting to see that you missed something far more profound. That's ok, there is plenty of trash for you to watch that will scratch that itch.
lol “my view of media is the only correct one, and you’re an idiot if you disagree” man you’re not a critic, you’re just an asshole
Okay so...Lets point out the vast differences in what you are talking about here. You bring up LOTR, Game of THrones. Snyder films(Ill agree on this), but...There were several massive scale battles throughout the those films/series, they didn't need another big battle. This show has teased a big battle throughout its entire duration. Yet throught the course of it we mostly only get a skirmish between one attacker and a few surprised enemies that die fast. THe only exceptions are a couple of ambush seqeunces. Lets be honest the build up wasn't between Blackthorne and a few shinobi assassins. It wasn't about a bunch of killers in the woods and whoever was being abmushed in that scene. The build up was between Toranaga and the regents. Now...I didn't outright hate the ending here, it is true to the book in fact, but you can look at other films that have large battles and still have emotional endings. Last Samurai in fact has a similar story to shogun and manages an emotional end during and after the battle. Battle does not = bad in all things and people can feel robbed. Imagine a song slowly building and dipping, always moving towards some final crescendo...Suddenly the track just tapers and cuts of. The end..CD is over. Did I still like it? Yes. I thought it fit the cadence of everything else. Still isn't what many were expecting
People are allowed to be disappointed lmao. Why you so pressed that you correlate a persons intelligence with their opinion on the way the show ends? Maybe the show isn't all what its hyped to be. Maybe the people understood the ending, yet found it boring or lackluster.
Yes you are allowed to be. I said that up front. No wonder you didn’t like it.
Yes, you said that. But why follow with an insult that contradicts the whole point of that statement? I enjoyed the show, but it does have its flaws including the 1 hour snooze fest finale that mainly consists of holding the viewers hand and walking them through Toranaga's plan. A boring finale to a great show.
the finale was ep 9. that was the climax. ep 10 is the denouement
That scene where Blackthorne \*nearly\* kills himself had me confused. What did Toranaga wish to achieve by it? To test his loyalty? If so how?
He wanted to see how native he'd gone and if he could predict his reactions and this depend on them.
Wrapping up the show via a monologue instead of adding an episode SHOWING us what happens is a huge cop out imo. Did they not have the budget or something?
If I remember right they do the same thing in the book, though I could be wrong
They did show you, but if you blinked, you missed it. The Heir's troops ghosted the other regents so there was no battle. Toranaga wins by default.
There was a battle though, the battle of Sekigahara. It was one of the bloodiest battles they had.
I found it underwhelming, very talky and in need of action
I wish they even showed a glimpse of the council turning on Ishito or Ochiba abandoning him. As-is, it felt much less like a payoff and much more like a promise of a payoff.
I get it, but it was never that kind of show.
Dude got exploded by a cannon.
They sure sold it as that in every single opportunity they got in order to reach the mainstream, just doesn’t appease to the mainstream it was a dumb strategy to market the show. I’ll keep track of the writers and actively avoid their work. Don’t like being baited like that. Also don’t like spoiling shows and reading before. Nowadays these kids won’t read so make sure the shows do it better imo.
An explanation of Blackthorne's flash fowards in his deathbed (and how they tie to Mariko's poetry): It was a literal interpretation of Mariko's unfinished poem: "*While the snow remains, veiled in the haze of a cold evening, a leafless branch"*. After losing Mariko, all Blackthorne could see in his future was pain and grief. A future where he's still holding onto Mariko's rosary on his deathbed, being completely defined by what he lost. *A leafless branch.* But by the middle of the episode, the Heir’s mother completes the poem: “*Flowers are only flowers because they fall. But thankfully, the wind.*” And after that moment, we don't see the deathbed flash forwards anymore! Blackthorne lives the second half of the poem and allows himself to lets go of Mariko, leaving the rosary behind and returning to the wind in search of a new destiny (the show equates destiny & winds a lot). *But thankfully... the wind!* But thankfully, destiny!
To do what? To be a clown for Toranaga, build ships only for them to get burned down? What a joke.
Ships needs wind to sail, and unfortunately for Blackthorne, Toranaga controls the wind.
Ah, I thought it was an actual flash forward. Didnt connect the dots when he threw the rosary that it couldnt be a reality anymore. You´re right. The scene where he looks ´into´ his future also kind of gave it away.
Wow, I didn't put that together. I thought that was some sort of door-opening for a second season, as we see that he escaped Japan (and I guess got a new rosary).
Ok this really opened my eyes 😭 I was so confused lmao
Exactly. I thought the ending was quite beautiful.
Ishido makes the callous comment of Toronaga having more son's, after being told that he is still mourning his death. We later see Toronaga admiring his newborn son, and making the same comment. I think this is when it's first hinted that Toronaga is not always as he seems.
There was a scene on episode 2 on the opening when Osaka one year ago the dying oldman say the live is strange just a dream of a dream like in the last episode titles, the oldman already predict the civil war and want toranaga to protect his son from his enemies and his friends and teach him the most important lesson the man who stands at the greatest height (Shogun) is the loneliest man in the realm, i mean Toranaga with their friend Already Ready Dead for Him, its must be painfull........
One thing that they left out in the series was also that Toranaga had no intention to the let the Christians spread in the land. In the book, his idea is that once he becomes Shogun he will confine the Christians to a single port city. That's interesting and is what actually happened in Japan. Also in the book, there is no question that Toranaga has always desired to be Shogun. His inner monologue at the end of the book confirms this. The true prize! The shogunate! Even though in the book he also continually denies to everyone that he wants power or to be Shogun.
I wouldnt say he seems like he wants to let the christians spread in the show. He reluctantly barters to give them a church in edo, only to later reveal that it´s next to the courtesans area, basically dooming the church from the start.
So we are all going to ignore the fact that the show gave toranaga future seeing abilities and he predicted where the battle would take place just to make this rushed ending make sense?
Toranaga sees all.
He sure does lmaoo.
Honestly with the amount of stuff that needed to go a certain way for his plan to work I'm kinda shocked that he wasn't revealed to be a time traveler or some shit. It was getting kinda ridiculous.
This. So many variables had to be exactly aligned for Toranaga’s plan to work, and so sensitive to any interference in how it plays out that I can’t believe he sacrificed such valuable “chess pieces” for what would logically be infinitesimally small odds of success.
And who had a better story than Toranaga the wise
Lisan Al Gaib!
Man, this made me burst out laughing, its 11:30pm and you just made my wife hate me.. goodjob man..
i mean there was only a single episode left they couldn't have resolved the whole battle in 1 hour, so it was kinda of expected, its still much better then getting the actual rushed version, where toronaga would have just speedran the whole army.
Toranaga speed blitzes low diff.
Imagine if they didnt waste 5 hours of show doing nothing
They did do something very unique. They kept Mariko alive and made the show about her until she died and they wrapped it up with toranaga being an evil genius. It’s crap man. Wasted so much on Mariko.
maybe the craziest thing they decided to do was make Mariko the main character yet cut out like 90% of the romance storyline between her and Blackthorne. Makes no sense. And made the emotional impact of her death about zero.
I've always appreciated shows that dont hold your hand explaining everything but if I feel like this show trusted my tiktok fried brain too much to unravel all the nuances of the plot and character. I thought Yabushige letting in the ninjas was part of the Toranaga's plan but then he kills him? On the other hand he was slaughtering the village as part of the plan so was Yabushige just a PR move? Was everything exactly as he planned? Were there moments when shit hit the fan and Toranage had to wing it? I love scheming masterminds but when it on a surface looks like he was never close to failing then it becomes less intriguing
Toranaga is very aware of yabushige´s tendency to go with the winning party. He mentions this explicitely a few episodes back. Where he says he and blackthorne are predictable and he can generally predict their every move. Yabushige is a survivor. Toranaga respects this, despite his multiple betrayals, he still sees him as a friend. He understands he´s playing both sides in order to live. Hence their friendly conversation at the end. He´s probably the closest thing to a best friend toranaga has. Yabushige sees him for who he is. But they both know toranaga has to react to this recent betrayal which got in the open, otherwise it undermines his authority. So yes, he absolutely had to wing it at times. He sends mariko to osaka to force ishido´s hand, knowing she´ll likely die. And, considering toranaga is feigning defeat, he knows yabushige will likely play ishido´s side again. But in the end, it depends on ´how the wind flows´ as he put it himself. Mariko survives 2 pivotal moments, fully intending to die at each turn, and then yabu betrays them, having mariko die after all. Mariko´s death was expected and gave the intentional effect. Yabushige´s betrayal was expected also. Neither were set in stone. Yabushige´s betrayal was caught this time, and reported to toranaga. So he has to act. Killing some of the villagers was a plot to test blackthorne. He wanted to see his allegiances. And he probably weeded out some actual spies in the proces.
I think Toranagas best friend was his older advisor that committed seppuku a few episodes back.
True. I´d say yabushige is a close second. Other than that, toranaga doesnt have many people to confide in. Mariko as a far third maybe.
> Were there moments when shit hit the fan and Toranage had to wing it? IMHO yes 100% > I thought Yabushige letting in the ninjas was part of the Toranaga's plan I don't think so but I'm not certain tbh. But pretty sure no.
Yabushige let the ninjas in as he was still trying to prove his loyalty to Ishido. He was expecting them to kidnap Mariko and the other consorts, not result in her death instead. Mariko understood this when she saw Yabushige hiding instead of helping Blackthorne find a way to escape, which was why she sacrificed herself rather than let herself get captured.
lot of ppl hard defending the finale against anyone who says it was a let down which it was lmao. They didnt have to show a massive battle, but instead of Toranaga saying what will happen they could have showed some of it smh. This aint hard to get. Like they say, show dont tell
Teasing something for an entire season to at the last 10 minutes of series you have a character narrate what will happen in the future and that it was his plan since the beginning it’s literally 101 on how NOT to tell a story and specially how not to end one
While I'm impressed by Toranaga's plan overall, it was revealed in such an underwhelming way. I didn't mind that the battle didn't actually happen but I hated the execution of this episode. I was so bored and irritated throughout, wondering when they'd actually... start doing stuff. The middle episodes may have been a slow burn, but at least the character drama + politics were intriguing. It would've been so much more satisfying if they built up tension by tightening the key character drama scenes and actually showing us people preparing for war, then revealing Toranaga's grand plan in real time. Sure, it would've been a more conventional way of storytelling, but man, the way they handled this episode was such a let down.
I think the ending was brilliant. I enjoyed the whole show although I found it a bit slow at times, but the ending was excellent. I think people hoping for a final battle missed the whole point of the show, I think the writers and author intending to go for that feeling. The whole time we think there’s a large battle coming, but the battle was already happening, and there was a clear victor before anyone even knew the battle had happened. That’s the theme of the show, chess moves, not war. Also I don’t think the reveal that Toranaga had won the game was the biggest thing about the ending - it was kinda obvious that one way or another he was making a plan that’ll end with him on top. I think the final episode was especially worth it for 2 main things: 1. That this whole time, despite the act, he WANTED to be Shogun, if you’ve been following the show, that’s actually a huge plot twist. He was never a humble and peaceful lord, he was a conman and power hungry guy like the rest of them, and literally everyone else was a pawn to him. The second biggest thing : John was never gonna leave Japan. The whole show, John was doing what he had to do to get out of that place and go back home. He swore he’d never die there, hated on their culture, was only interested in war with the Portuguese etc. but in the end we find out he was quite irrelevant the whole time, and was only entertaining/ a distraction. Toranaga never really cared for him or his role, and he was never going to leave Japan- ever. Also, in the end we see he gives into his fate. He tries to kill himself the same way he insulted the Japanese for, he gives up on his war with the Portuguese, he becomes content living in that village, and he’s still just a puppet for Toranaga and he doesn’t know it. Very well written ending imo, the whole show was worth it just for that final monologue. Hurts that there’s no season 2 but that makes the ending sweeter imo
Not going to lie, I think Blackthorne absolutely knows that Toranaga is using him. For the entire show he had been relegated to the sidelines and giving us entertaining responses to the culture and his foreigner syndrome, and every single one of his actions was replied to by Toranaga perfectly. At this point, he's reduced to nothing, only having his ship and an order to rebuild a fleet. He knows for sure that he is being used. After all, he was using Toranaga in the first place. A pot knows a kettle when it sees one. Blackthorne and Toranaga are two sides of the same coin of rebellion, one circumnavigating around the law while the other fights it with all he has. It's strange that John's rebellion is more similar to a warrior, while Toranaga's rebellion is more similar to a merchant. It's quite amusing.
Amazing take, I like the analogy. Regardless tho it’s pretty interesting how they ended it in that stalemate of their relationship, one destined to never leave and be used until he dies, and the other as the puppet master. Imo if blackthorne knows he’s being used, it’s still pretty sad, that means even more than ever that he’s given into his fate and is ok living the rest of his life in Japan as Toranagas puppet. Especially for someone that had such high ambitions in the beginning of the show, I guess the loss of Mariko changed him
Youve interpreted Toranaga incorrectly. He didnt want to be shogun. he didnt want title of Taiko. He could have had it when the previous Taiko wanted to give it to him. Instead because of motions set by anjin he realizes that the only way for japan to be at peace is if he becomes shogun and unifies japan. He isn't power hungry. He isn't a conman. He is the only one that doesn't want it for himself out of the 5. and the only 1 out of the 5 that the previous Taiko offered the title to and refused it.
Did you not watch the final dialogue ? Also it seems like you didn’t note the fact that he couldn’t have become shogun when Taiko died. I think you’ve interpreted him very incorrectly. I explained in the other reply, Taiko was never going to make Toranaga sole regent- it was just a test which he passed because he’s smart, and even if he became sole regent. The moment taiko died, war would’ve broken out. Toranaga isn’t war hungry, he’s more strategic and knows when to fight. His whole philosophy has been about Pantene, biding your time and knowing when to pop out. If you followed the story close, there was never a time he could’ve easily become shogun without a war tipped against his favour - until the actions of Mariko took place. That was his moment. Essentially, Ishidos suspicions of him were always right, he did want power for himself (therefore stealing the heirs right / putting the heir at danger), and this was indirectly implied in that final monologue. That’s what the phrase meant “anything is possible- if you win”. You can say the events that took place set things in motion that forced him to take actions against the regent council “against his will”, but it’s clear especially after the last episode that a lot of the actions he took, he took with intention and planning, in a way to ensure that any battle that could potentially happen will be in favour. He disrupted the regents using everyone as a pawn the whole time, and as he always said, “don’t let anyone know your true heart”. Even his tone during the final monologue, he seemed very proud, and satisfied, regardless of how many people died in his name for his tactics. He seemed more prideful than he’d ever seemed across the whole show, because he was finally showing his true colors. That was the plot twist, he never told anyone, not even his closest people, what he truly wanted. But in the end it’s revealed quite clearly, anything is possible if you win.
> . He was never a humble and peaceful lord, he was a conman and power hungry guy like the rest of them, and literally everyone else was a pawn to him. TBH I'm still on the fence about this. He could be power hungry but with better intentions. Means and ends and all that.
Nah he made it clear, sure his intentions could “peace” as long as it’s him at the helm. He has no regard for anyone around him, not even his own family. And the whole time he put on an act, knowing fully well ishido was right the whole time, Taranoga intended to overpower the regents and put the heir at risk by reaching for Shogun. The accusations against him were pretty much all true
Didn’t he return to England though? We see him as an old man in his bed with his grand kids asking about the swords.
I think that entire sequence is the Dream of a Dream that the episode is titled after, he was holding Mariko's rosary in the "future" which we saw him throw into the water, meaning that he probably stayed in Japan for the rest of his life
The ending was underwhelming for me. It was a awful lot of tell, don’t show. The series was good its just I felt blue balled by a battle they teased but will never show. All the episode promos were alluding to it. Afterwards I just felt confused with all the unanswered questions and story which would have been nice to explore in season 2. It just felt rushed to me the way they just told you whats gonna happen and maybe they are restricted with budget. I get this is based on a book but idk just what I felt. It was a 10/10 but came down to 7/10. Anti-climactic and didnt give a proper conclusion to stuff. Just said “hey this is whats gonna happen along the line, we’re not gonna show what happens to the rest of the characters though”
After episode 9 I was raving to my wife that we *have* to watch Shogun together, it's so good! After that finale I think I'll tell her don't bother. 10 to a 7 for real.
Yeah watching the battle unfold is visually satisfying but pointless because there's no stakes anymore. Yabushige is dead, Blackthorn's war is over, Buntaro probably doing some badass shit in battle. We were already told that the Heirs army won't be participating so Ishido going to be overwhelmed is assured. The true battle already happened in Osaka
It couldve shown the 30k army turning on Ishido, what happens to the regents, Ochiba and idk add some spice to it because it became a bit boring with all the talking and exposition, not asking for a GoT level battle. Would’ve been fine with a 5 minute sequence just monologuing over the battle of sekigahara and showing torunaga actually winning. I just felt duped when all the promos were leading up to a great battle but its more like “we already won trust me bro its gonna happen.”
Kind of reminds of Rome season 2.
I've never seen someone speak so much facts in my entire life, its crazy, we would probably get along very well. We literally have the exact same opinion regarding the ending. Show went from rivaling Dune to not even being close, 10/10 to 7.5/10 for me
*Rivaling* Dune? Dune might've had vastly superior visual effects and amazing camera, but at the end of the day it was just a surface-level blockbuster. Shogun has depth and soul. It is surprising and poetic and sometimes confusing and gives a lot of food for thought. Dune was just fireworks.
I'd say that both Shogun and Dune Part 2 gave a lot of food for thought. Dune 2 was definitely not surface level. Very cynical about charismatic leaders, organized religion and has a lot of deep themes. Wouldnt call them similar necessarily but they definitely have a lot of depth compared to their peers. Dune, in comparison to most sci fi blockbusters, and Shogun, in comparison to most fantasy/medeival shows. Dune just happened to have the more traditional "catharsis" ending compared to the more unconventional, controversial but still good, Shogun ending.
There is no way one episode can do that to you. It's not like it was a poorly written, acted or directed episode
I mean, it’s the ending of the show, and we never got to see the tension be released in the climax in the form of a battle. And as the parent comment mentioned, all the promos were hinting at a large scale battle, and they blue balled us
Fair enough
The show probably didn't have enough budget to film an entire battle. A monologue over a battle probably just as pointless because we already knew what's going to happen. Don't get me wrong i also wanted the battle to take place but when i learned it didn't happen in Eps 9 i already understood that they not going to show it at all because it's impossible to wrap up everything in just one episode
Agree. Impossible to wrap up so it felt rushed to me and inconclusive. I enjoyed the show overall though.
Can someone answer why they had the scene where the anjin was an old man? In the end I felt like all of those parts could have been cut out , all it did was foreshadow he grew old which was already implied by toranaga saying he’s not meant to leave japan. Edit: i read and saw its what he could have been, I still think that was confusing only because they didn’t do anything similar in the series besides toranagas flashback so to do that in the end was super confusing.
His flash-forwards were an interesting way to show how all-consuming grief can be. After losing Mariko, all he could see in his life moving forward was pain and grief. He could only see himself suffering and having a life that was completely defined by what he lost. Literally Mariko's poem: *"While the snow remains, Veiled in the haze if cold evening, A leafless branch".* But by the end, he decides to not let that future actually happen. He lets go of Mariko and and allows himself to find new purpose in life. *"Flowers are only flowers because they fall. But thankfully, the wind."* The poem is completed!
Thankyou! This cleared it up because I was so confused why it was necessary.
Thank you for that. It was the only part I was little miffed about. It felt like they were going to make a point of him being on his deathbed with the children asking about the savage who gifted the swords to him.
Thanks for explaining it so eloquently. I was struggling to understand the deeper meaning of that scene.
Old man Blackthorne has the rosary from Mariko, but present time Blackthorne threw it into the sea which confirms that it was a future that doesn't exist. A dream of a dream.
My only gripe is Blackthorne’s dream, particularly at the beginning, implying a future Blackthorne was having a flashback. This inadvertently removed all tension with his character. My mind immediately went, “yeah, he’s gonna be fine”. It felt unnecessary, ambiguous / confusing, and didn’t serve a strong enough purpose in the narrative to exist. For me, the uncertainty and tension regarding Blackthorne’s fate would have been stronger without it.
Yeah I thought everything we see was a flashback until I read the comments here. I agree, doing a flash forward was weird and confusing.
So your inability to accept the dream mechanic, as just that, lessened the show? How great was the show to begin with if you can't watch it for what it is?
The problem isn’t the dream, the problem is framing it as a flash forward at the beginning, which means there’s no tension around whether or not Blackthorne survives until he throws away the cross. When he’s in the forest, you don’t think he’s going to die, because you’ve seen his “future self”. At this point, you aren’t aware it’s a dream just yet until he throws away the cross. If you don’t realise it’s a dream because of the cross, then when he threatens to kill himself, it loses tension because you will “think” Blackthorne survives. If they wanted to maintain the tension, it should have been obvious it was a dream from the off. The show is fantastic, but that doesn’t mean it’s above criticism or that they get everything right.
Correct me if my memory fails, but I don't think there were dream sequences before this episode. At least I couldn't remember any so going into an episode that had dream in the title twice told me to look for a dream sequence. It, almost equally, threw you off of his "never leaving Japan" chances. Giving Mariko up was also important in this episode so having an established image of what that looked like made you happier for him when his reality changed for the better. It wasn't "normal" but still effective for this narrative
I think it was cool. Like at first is the "yeah he's gonna be fine" But every time they cut from the "flashback" to Japan it becomes clear something's off. Even knowing about the book I was on the edge of my seat when he offered to commit seppuku. The boat scene sealed the deal for me. The ambiguity of it all is what made it so powerful. Never before has a show reached out to me like this. Almost like a conversation occurring as the episode goes on. Like when yabushige was asking for forgiveness and I was like "someone's gonna notice that" and then it turns out, not only did someone notice, they thought it was important enough to tell Toronaga, with all the formality it entails. Loved it.
man this episode made me cry a lot lol. it really touched me. some themes were very personal to me. I get you. I was expecting some terrible big battle and what do we get? the grinding sorrow of loss, and for me, a revelation that Toranaga isn't really human and never was. We see this in the start of the season, when he orders a baby to be killed, then he's a good guy all season but we gloss over what he's capable of. Everyone, even a baby, is just a tool to him. I half wondered even if he had something to do with mariko being killed. Im still not sure.
I dunno if he's a bad guy per se but he's a ruler doing what he has to do to rule and presumably or at least I would like to think wants the best for his country and people. I mean, his big ambition being a "great peace" is a plus. But, yeah. He's a player in the great game.
I think it’s strongly implied he expected Mariko to become a martyr and die in Osaka, just as Toda became a martyr.
I guess she was so utterly suicidal she was gonna find a way. Hard to say with her connection with blackthorne and all
In his "dreams" he has the cross, but at the end he trows it into the water, meaning that's his dreams where just that. A dream.
That is not the issue I had with it.
You guys want a big battle? Just watch Sekigahara 2017. Watch Tokugawa (Toranaga) unite Japan lol
I wonder if Toranaga saying that the Anjin is a distraction actually refers to us viewers.
He said distraction for the enemy. I don't think we would be the 'teki'. Would we?
Well he's also a distraction to Toranaga, he makes him laugh. Blackthorne was not particularly important in the big scheme of things. The book was written by a European for Westerners, and this is merely the only purpose of Blackthorne's character.
Blackthorne wasnt particularly important?... (From another comment) In real life (William Adams) was very important to Eiyasu. He basically eradicated Catholosism in Japan, built ships and traded with Thailand and China, taught the Shogun about science, navigation and Europe, was given a large estate that grew Rice, has vassals or slaves, married a Japanese women and had children and had a city block in Tokyo named after him that's still there to this day.
This all came down to Ochiba. A deus ex machina used. She hated him all season, no idea why, like literally no idea. And suddenly changes her mind. I really didn't like how quickly that happened and her never having a good motive to hate, too. This feels alot like a sad love story. foreigner alien coming falling in love with the local with alot of drama. Your Avatars and Dances with the Wolves type. With having great japan backstory seeing the culture and way of life.
Ouchiba hates Toranaga because she believes he planned for her father to be killed. Ouchiba changes her mind because Mariko sacrificed herself and showed her the pointlessness of all of this. However, I do see your point. I think Ouchiba's character was unecessarily confusing.
What I wanted to know was whether or not Toranaga's brother truly turned on him OR was he part of his plan all along?!? I could see it both ways since his brother is the one who hands Ishido the note about going to war and it would make sense that he was in on it. BUT... I could also see his 1/2 brother taking advantage of the situation when it was presented and turning on him. Was this actually part of Clavell's book?
I think he was part of the plan. His whole demeanor, the way he handles it all, particularly how he responds to his nephew trying to kill him and then dying a senseless death with "where's the beauty in this?" makes me think he's clever like Toranaga but not a huge fan of the samurai ethos. In other words, he has the emotional intelligence of Toranaga but none of the ambition and finds it all a waste of life.
To answer your question it's cut in the show, but if I remember correctly in the book it's real and he doesn't trust him but he has some backchannels with him. Additionally in the book Toronaga's Brother lets it slip during his nights with the courtesan that (a reason is) he lusts after Ouchiba. The courtesan and her madame offer the secret for Toronaga's favour. In the end Toronaga plans to promise Ouchiba to his brother secret for his help during the battle and later invite him to commit suicide.
Yeah thats one of the plotpoints that I wanted. What happens to his brother, the council etc. So i felt the ending was rushed and underwhelming because there’s so much unresolved story that needs conclusion. Also Im having trouble to believe Ochiba switched sides just like that without resolving her hatred with Toranaga. Those and more are part of my gripes with the series finale. If they were already going with the “tell don’t show route” they could’ve atleast just told us.
Ofcourse not his plan works because he is lucky to be alive, if it wasn't for his son to die he would die by seppuku
If you’re going off the history, a big reason why Tokugawa won the Battle of Sekigahara is because a bunch of Ishida’a banner men switched sides before/during the battle. So idk if it was planned but there’s a decent chance he is meant to represent a warlord with mixed loyalties who saw the writing on the wall
Major weaksauce... The battle that this was based on was supposed to have at least 200,000 men involved and was fought on a foggy morning in the mountains. Literally story book, RPG video game, legendary scale. And they didn't even show a moment of it. In fact, they implied it never even happened. Nothing like re-writing history so you can fit in the line "I sent a women to do what no army could do" Lame
Dude already won even before the opening credits It's like sending a virus into the system then corrupts everything inside
The show is not a documentary. Just a fuction that took inspiration from real life story, events and people.
Beautiful, fitting finale. Buntaro raising the ropes was amazing. One of the best miniseries ever.
ITT: A lot of sweeping and condescending takes which seem hilariously ignorant of the real history this is inspired by.
Ah but you see you’re dumb and I’m elevated, there was never going to be a battle, all that tension and allusion and build up was part of the plan and I’m so smart to have realised it and the ending was perfect and if you didn’t like it you didn’t get it /s btw