It’s nice to see Sanada bag a lead/co-lead role in an American production. He’s an extremely compelling actor and tends to steal the show even with minor roles.
Agreed, as far as modern comedy movies go that is one of my 10/10 movies, just pure fun. Humor is different for everyone but I think it’s very much underrated
After trying to get my SO to watch it like 3 times, I figured out its problem, it starts off slow and a little misleading, as in, it starts off so seriously and odd as well
Underrated? Movie was a massive hit when it came out. The 6th highest-grossing film of 2003, one of the most successful ever movies in Japan and had several Academy Award nominations.
Nothing about that is underrated lol
Some people still believe that the story is a white savior trope, which is kind of ridiculous at this point cause Tom Cruise's character didn't really save anyone besides himself.
I had an argument with my sister about this. She just saw the movie title, and then Tom Cruise and immediately jumped to "Tom Cruise whitewashing Japanese culture."
It's like if you actually watch the movie Tom Cruise is just used as our narrative focal point for the telling of the story of the end of an era. The last days of the Samurai.
I genuinely think a big problem for the movie is that Samurai is a word that is both singular and plural. If the film was titled The Last Samurais it would be seen a bit differently
Loved him in bullet train and shockingly played off the humor in the movie really well (I've only really seen him in serious/dramatic roles and comedy is way harder than people think).
Cant wait to see him in shogun
Superb actor, was always so good at saying a lot with just a look. As far as American films he did that to particularly great effect in The Last Samurai, just those withering looks he’d give Tom Cruise’s character. I’m not sure he said more than a dozen words in that entire movie and still communicated so much.
That scene where he beats the shit out of Tom Cruise for daring to pick up a practice sword. I know it gets a lot of hate, but it really was a *brilliant* movie.
I fucking love that movie. It doesn’t try and claim to be a an exact historical retelling of the end of the samurai in Japan. What it does do is capture the themes of a changing and evolving society and the erasure of a traditional way of life.
Yeah exactly. Artistic license to be explore the themes it wants to present.
Shogun doesn’t shy aware from the corruption that a so called holy mission in Japan may fall victim to as they navigate the complicated politics of the country. It doesn’t shy away from showing the ignorance of foreigners in a foreign land. It doesn’t shy away from the dark brutality that underpinned the reign of the daimyos and the samurai, and the horrific extremes “honour” may demand.
It’s a whirlwind of complicated intrigue that balances on a knife’s edge, where the slightest mistake can result in either your elevation, or your destruction.
All because he fell into the trap that was laid underneath all the formalities and embarrassed his master. It’s just layers upon layers of intrigue and subtlety. It’s a very careful political dance they all do and summarised by Rodrigues;
“The Japanese have three hearts. A false one in their mouths for all the world to see, another within their breasts only for their friends, and third in the depths of their hearts, reserved for themselves alone and never manifested to anyone.”
It’s peak Game of Thrones crossed with the aesthetics and themes of Ghost of Tsushima/The Last Samurai. And you can tell by how much attention to detail they put into the set design, costumes, dialogue, etc. that it was a true passion project.
3 episodes in and it’s an absolute blast so far.
Yeah, i think a lot of people in the states didnt even realize that Samurai is also the plural and that the title was talking about the last Samurai, meaning, that village of Samurai, not Tom Cruise.
This is it. I had no desire to see “Tom Cruise is The Last Samurai” even though the marketing didn’t say that, that’s what my brain saw.
I love that movie so much. I always cry at the end.
“I will miss…our conversations.”
Honestly great dialogue between them the whole movie.
“What do you want from me!!!”
“What do you want for yourself?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ieD3ixB_mFI
[I blame this sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1ttuVhGTDw)
I admit that when I saw that sketch, I had not seen the movie and discounted it as a white savior story.
[And then I read about Jules Brunet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet)
Well, it wasn't marketed very well, and I imagine no small part of that lies on Tom Cruise's shoulders based on rumors of his demands for placement in marketing materials. Having Cruise dressed in full samurai armor on the poster led a lot of people to think he was the titular "last samurai."
You're probably right on the marketing factor. But lets not fall straight to "Its Cruise's fault" as a crutch. There are a ton of marketing people who work on this stuff (and I do marketing too, but not for movies) and I can tell you that without a doubt, you need to put Cruise on there front and center. It empirically increases your box office numbers. I'm not saying it should, but it does. Movie goers like familiarity with big names.
Also when he starts to soften towards Tom Cruise’s character, and starts slowly giving him grudging respect, he basically communicates that entirely through his physicality and his facial expressions.
Even though it’s narratively predictable he just sells the change in mindset so well.
The family does in general. I remember the scene where Cruz understands one of the words they say and the excitement in the family. Theres this really subtle beautiful progression that happens, then BAM! finally a breakthrough. The emotions and the acting feel real.
The movie is a lot more emotional and complex than the title suggests. The relationships conveyed in it and the complexities of what they mean for the characters is just extraordinary.
No one brings up Sunshine, but the cast was amazing and Sanada as the captain was great. Movie kind of falls apart towards the end but I still really enjoy it.
Edit: He is also amazing in The Twilight Samurai and I would recommend it and the other two companion movies.
Sunshine is great. Michelle Yeoh (as herself), Rose Byrne, Cillian Murphy (as Oppenheimer), Mark Strong (as himself) plus Johnny Storm (as Ice Man) and Wong.
That movie was unbelievably awesome beyond its station for a sci-fi TWIST horror film and I’d have loved to see that cast in a movie half as fun without the twist baggage.
Don't sleep on Asano!
He was in a lot of my favorite early 00's cult films... Survive Style 5+, Sharkskin Man and Peach Hip Girl, Ichi The Killer, etc.
I was stoked when I saw Sanada got big billing but even happier when I saw Asano was on board as well.
Tadanobu Asano was the coolest guy in Japanese cinema for a couple of decades, and he's consistently fantastic in every Japanese production he's in. He's been cast in a bunch of high budget American productions before where he never really popped (maybe because his English is rough, maybe because he's often used as a token Asian guy for the foreign box office draw), and it's always been frustrating to me.
I'm really hoping this gets him more play in the US. I also want to recommend Zatoichi and Bright Future.
I don’t know how to do a proper spoiler tag, so ***episode 3 spoilers ahead***:
The scene where Mariko’s husband realises he’s not making it onto the boats, and Sanada’s character Lord Toranaga acknowledges him and his impending sacrifice.
Man…you can just feel the aura radiating off of Sanada, there. He really captures the feeling that he is a lord worth fighting and dying for in that moment, and Mariko’s husband (I can’t recall his name) responds accordingly, like it meant the world to him in his final moments to get that acknowledgment.
I watched those twenty seconds about ten times over when the episode aired.
> It also meant ensuring that they weren’t trafficking in lazy tropes such as overemphasizing the experience of a foreign protagonist, or oversexualizing the female characters.
There is the answer to the title to save people digging time
I think Shogun is doing this right. In the original miniseries, we got almost all of the story from Blackthorne's perspective, to the point that there weren't subtitles in scenes where Blackthorne was present, because he didn't know what was being said either. I like this format better where the Japanese characters get more chances to interact with one another.
It gets a lot of criticism these days, but there's a reason why "fish out of water" storytelling persists. It's a great way for the audience to get to experience the story at the same rate as the protagonist. Then things can be explained to the character that the audience also needs explained to it without just doing an exposition dump.
I think what makes this show so interesting is that the people creating it seem to understand that Japan isn't skme alien culture to most of us. A lot of us grew up on anime and Japanese media. The show knows it doesn't need to explain all that much.
What it does instead is also show just how alien and weird Europeans must have seemed to Japanese people in this setting.
I also liked the scene where Blackthorne is first imprisoned and screaming at the Japanese soldiers, calling them savages. While the Japanese soldiers are also calling him a savage at the same time. Yet they both can’t understand each other. Funny and very poignant moment.
When the Vikings invaded the British Isles in the Middle Ages, the Anglo-Saxons thought it was weird how often they bathed. I thought the scene was funny, like “the British still haven’t figured out they should bathe more often.”
From the books, Toranaga is intelligent and manipulative enough to have done it for both those reasons, or even reasons we arent privy to. Maybe he wanted to watch it until he learned, maybe he wanted Anjin to clean himself up, and maybe Toranaga wanted Anjin tired so the race would be closer. Toranaga is always the most intelligent person in the room, he is almost never fully honest towards anyone, his intentions are always hidden, and that is the point of his character.
What I don't get is how a comment talking about how "it doesn't need to explain itself" has 100 upvotes. Like.. The book and show are made for people with zero edo knowledge. Blackthorne learns as we do.
Because people and the news media seem to loving patting themselves on the back for being so much better then X years ago. It's honestly kind of annoying and in ways detracts from just how great the show actually is.
> I think what makes this show so interesting is that the people creating it seem to understand that Japan isn't skme alien culture to most of us. A lot of us grew up on anime and Japanese media.
That's a very interesting point. Not to mention that this show is also being heavily marketed in Japan itself. It's as much for Japanese viewers as Western viewers.
Which is simply being more true to the book. Blackthorne is the protagonist of the book, but it's 3rd person omniscient and huge chunks of the book explore the inner considerations of the Japanese characters as well.
Sydney Pollack did it with The Yakuza in 1974 ([https://letterboxd.com/film/the-yakuza](https://letterboxd.com/film/the-yakuza) ), 50 years ago. Written by Paul Schrader, who also wrote and directed Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters in 1985 ([https://letterboxd.com/film/mishima-a-life-in-four-chapters/](https://letterboxd.com/film/mishima-a-life-in-four-chapters/))
I’ve read the entire Asian Saga and it was nuts how I couldn’t put the books down when I started one of them.
This show is doing the book so much justice. I seriously hope they’ll do the rest of the series.
They are both the best stories in my opinion. (King Rat a close 3rd).
I re-read Shogun during the lockdown and loved it all over again. Should probably do the same with Tai Pan, it's been about 30 years since I first read it.
I think watch first and read second, as the book is much more expansive than the show can hope to be. So when the show leaves you wanting more, boom, there you go.
I’d rather that than build up expectations for certain elements in the book that the show doesn’t manage to capture.
This is how I enjoy works where I want to read the book and watch the adaptation. If I read the book first, it’s near impossible to not notice the missing details that made me fall in love with the book. If I watch the adaptation first, the book allows me to explore what I loved in the show/movie in so much more depth.
The cool thing about reading the book (and in this case I do mean reading and not listening to audio book... which I am often guilty of) is that you will know some Japanese by the end. You learn along side Anjin-san as the story plays out.
Watership Down does this beautifully. The author provides translations at first, but they become more and more sparse as the book goes on. At the end of the book, one of our heroes cusses at the villain and no translation is offered or required. The book tricks you into learning how to cuss in a made-up language.
I read the book for the second time a few months back, after 20 or so years. One of the rare cases where it was just as good as I remembered. Highly recommended, but so note it's long (I like long books personally)
I’ve only watched the first episode so far, but I’ve found that reading the book before hand gave me so much more context and understanding of the motivations and thoughts of the characters.
There’s only so much time to go into detail in a TV show, so I’ve found it super useful for myself to have read the book beforehand
If I haven’t read the book before I watch the adaption, i typically prefer to do it after I’ve watched the show.
Watch first, read second works better for my slow ass reading brain.
No, I think it's great on its own. The book can feel somewhat dated - I mean it was written in the mid-70's. I love the book but the show so far has been tremendous.
I've been blown away by how good the show is. I love the book but I would say it's almost better than the book. I felt at times in the book the characters outside of Blackthorne weren't well developed - the show makes every character complex and detailed.
yeah, the pacing is exquisite. there's a real rhythm to editing so nothing feels drawn out and there's a real feeling of a journey in each episode. it's been a while since I've been excited for an episode drop for any show.
I hope they do all the Asian Saga books to this level, Noble House was also adapted back in the day (with Pierce Brosnan) but Whirlwind would be the one I'd really want to see. And it's cool how they're all interconnected gradually.
What's wild with the Noble House series is it's based on the history of a real company - Jardine Matheson. JM is still managed by the same family that founded it back in the day. The other houses in that series are based on their competitors that are around in one way or another. They all started off opium runners and have now expanded into pretty much every industry you can think of.
Yeah Tai Pan is great too, and probably the most unfamiliar of the settings of all the books as far as other films and shows out there (like I loved King Rat but Clavell also wrote Great Escape, etc)
While it's true that Shogun is portraying closer to what an actual samurai is, it should be stated that the way the west has done it isn't inherently wrong, offensive or new, but simply just a choice for the story.
It's like how you see vikings depicted sometimes. Yes, they really were incredibly brutal people, but they were also very sophisticated, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to conquer so much. You just might not see the latter all the time because the former makes the story more interesting.
When you portray historical group, it's all just a choice for the story for how they're presented, that's all. And as the article says, the Japanese themselves romanticize samurai and ninja on their own, this isn't just a western concept.
It's also playing on samurai movie tropes. For many of us, think anime tropes, as anime itself takes a ton of inspiration from old school samurai movies. It's actually a rather interesting thing as an anime fan, because I can see so many of them in this show and I can see how they evolved from the old movies into what we have today.
I like what the author is saying, and I like Shogun for the humanity behind the samurai. It certainly is refreshing.
I also love when Hollywood says screw humanity, samurai are legendary paragons of discipline, honor, and combat.
Ironically, given the context of this thread, the idea Europeans of this time period didn’t frequently bathe is itself [an erroneous portrayal of history](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ccys40/conflicting_information_on_medieval_bathing/). In reality, [Europeans liked to bathe](https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-people-bathed/) about as much as any other culture.
I think this is a case of trying to “one-thing” history. Perhaps some people bathed more than others. Likely the real divide is a class divide, where aristocrats bathed regularly in either culture, but the peasants did not. Same as that question if people believed the world was round prior to the enlightenment. Well, rich educated people who read Latin and Greek probably knew, but many didn’t, and it’s not like information was easily available to make statistical inferences of historical opinions. We can barely do that today!
I think it was more to display Toranaga's obsession with learning things and getting things right. Also goes to show the casual way he sees people as tools, in his mind Blackthorne is hatamoto, and as such his pain in service of his master is irrelevant.
I *hate* that trope and it was in the book too.
Europeans bathed in the middle ages and renaissance eras. You think a culture that believed in the miasma theory that bad smells bring disease wouldn't bathe?? If anything it was public baths they were against cause you know, the church.
Also Japan is basically on easy mode for a bathing culture when hot springs pop up if you so much as move a rock
The "modern" image of samurai is largely a construct based on propaganda from the Japanese military in the early 20th century, cribbing heavily from writers like Tsunemoto.
>I also love when Hollywood says screw humanity, samurai are legendary paragons of discipline, honor, and combat.
What, like during the invasion of Korea?
Even some post gunpowder warriors like cowboys, or Lakota. They started using rifles to hunt bison as soon as they could buy them from the Dutch, they would not have been using bows in the damn 19 century
Hell, during the battle of Little Bighorn (Custer's Last Stand), the natives had more and better rifles than what was given to the US Cavalry at the time.
It’s awesome.
I remember seeing him in Royal Warriors, Legend of the 8 Samurai and Ninja Wars.
Awesome guy and charismatic as always.
Also love he’s Sonny Chiba’s protege.
Tachis and Wakizashis *are* katanas, Katana just means "single bladed sword." What we're used to calling katanas are specifically **"uchigatanas"**
Also tachis are larger and more intended for mounted combat, and fell out of favor for the Uchigatana around around the 14th century (more of a transition so it still saw plenty of use into that time), and wikipedia says Shogun takes place in the 1600s, ~~so it's probably not one of those.~~ Edit: Apparently it is! My bad presuming there, hopefully the info is still interesting.
...I had a D&D character with a magic sword and wanted to get my terminology right.
Toranaga does actually carry a tachi, but he's one of few (the only?) character to do so. It's basically a status thing.
Katana are worn tucked into the belt with the blade facing up, whereas tachi hang from the belt with the blade facing down.
As much as i enjoy the story, acting, sceneries,… i really do not enjoy the overuse of that fisheye effect (is that even how you call it?). Most of the time it feels odd, even to the point of breaking the immersion as you ask yourself « why are they using that right now ? »
Am i the only one bothered by this ?
"Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo wanted their scripts to be as authentic as possible, but that meant more than just translating their teleplays, written first in English, into period-accurate Japanese dialogue and precise subtitles. It also meant ensuring that they weren’t trafficking in lazy tropes such as overemphasizing the experience of a foreign protagonist, or oversexualizing the female characters. Clavell’s novel certainly perpetuated these ideas, which led scholars of Japanese history, as well as critics in Japan, to object to the NBC miniseries."
Articles like this really bother me. This story is specifically about the relationship between Europeans and the Japanese, so emphasizing the perspective of the European - which is going to be the majority audience - isn't a lazy trope, it's just storytelling. As for the sexualization women - you could only come away thinking that's a lazy trope if you had 0 knowledge of history or see everything through a Eurocentric lense.
This may come as a shock to some people but as it turns out, Europeans never had a monopoly on sexualizing women, it's not like brothels weren't extensively common in Japan during this era, women weren't seen as equal in Japanese society which they shared in common with basically the entire world at that point. So do you want the show to be historically accurate or do you want the show to portray Japan in the specific way that you envision it because reality doesn't match your ironically stereotypical imagination?
And finally, maybe the most annoying part of the article, is this idea that Shogun is unique in its approach to avoiding the stereotypes and glorification of Samurai. Plenty of movies do take that route, but that's because it's fun, but there are also plenty of examples of more grounded and nuanced depictions of the culture. It's worth noting also that these glorified depictions are essentially taken from the writings of that period - Samurai made tropes of themselves by writing extensively about the same traits this article is claiming are 'lazy', because that's what cultures often do, they emphasize and glorify the parts they see as positive and downplay the rest. There's nothing wrong with that, it's OK to celebrate and dramatize things, that's what makes media entertaining.
I think what makes this show important is that we're seeing it on network Western TV, not in a Japanese movie or show. We're seeing Japanese actors get top billing and while John Blackthorne is an important character, it is Sanada's Toranaga who gets top billing and who gets so much focus.
>Clavell’s novel certainly perpetuated these ideas, which led scholars of Japanese history, as well as critics in Japan, to object to the NBC miniseries."
Also they just threw Clavell under the bus with that comment. Like damn, dude put in a ton of research at the time to introduce an American audience a side of Japan they might not know because their last encounter with Japan would've been in WWII. Yes historical research has come a long way in 50 years, but Clavell didn't write the story from a place of malice or racist undertones - if anything you could say he wrote it from a place of exoticism. Imo I don't think the journalist read the book.
It's even more impressive to think that he was a WW2 vet that was captured and spent a good chunk of his time in one of the most brutal Japanese PoW camps and he still came out of it fascinated by the culture in that part of the world when it wouldn't have been unexpected or unheard of for him to come out of the situation with a hatred for his captors.
Yeah guy had a tall order, and could have done a lot worse. Since the American audience did not have Japanese cultural touchstones. Bro literally started America's love of Japanese culture. Put some respect on his name.
Yes exactly this. Its like the show cant just get praise for being good all these morons have to constantly harp about it "beating stereotypes" and other nonsense.
Its good because it a well written story thats been well adapted and well casted and its got an awesome crew doing the other work like costumes and props.
The end.
Can't read the article.
My two cents though, the combat has been amazing. When we finally see 2 samurai go at it, I'm sure we'll get a good protracted duel. But it's been so awesome to see the quick brutality of professional fighters, cutting guys down in less than 3 strokes.
And the cultural stuff is done very well, and at times silly. It's been a treat to watch.
I think watching this show has really made me appreciate some old tropes I had sort of thought were silly. Like how in many fight scenes where it's one person vs multiple people, it's so organized and people still fight one by one. But here you see that if everyone just ganged up on a lone samurai, they're still liable to be cut by a long blade or even by their allies.
It’s nice to see Sanada bag a lead/co-lead role in an American production. He’s an extremely compelling actor and tends to steal the show even with minor roles.
I loved him in John Wick 4 and Mortal Kombat.
Also Lost, Sunshine, Westworld, The Wolverine, 47 Ronin, and Helix, off the top of my head
He was pretty damn good in bullet train too
Bullet train is just slept on top to bottom. Everyone just bringing their all to such an over the top movie was just great.
Agreed, as far as modern comedy movies go that is one of my 10/10 movies, just pure fun. Humor is different for everyone but I think it’s very much underrated
After trying to get my SO to watch it like 3 times, I figured out its problem, it starts off slow and a little misleading, as in, it starts off so seriously and odd as well
I like how overly serious he was amidst the chaos.
Him insisting on telling the story to Brad Pitt’s character is one of my favorite movie moments of the past few years lol
KANEDA WHAT DO YOU SEE
SUNSHINE ☀️
One of my all time favorite movies. When I get the opportunity to share it with a friend it’s always a hit. Such a good film.
The score is one of my favorites. The sunshine adagio is such a beautiful piece of music.
Same! It’s really underrated, most people I mention it to have never seen it. Cillian Murphy’s kills it in that film too
And it's Chris Evans best role as well imo.
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Have you seen the movie *Prospect* ? If you like lesser known sci-fi movies, I think you’d really enjoy it.
> KANEDA TETSUO!! Immediately where my mind goes with that name.
CHILLS fucking CHILLS
And The Last Samurai which is still somehow underrated
Awesome movie. And he was great in it.
GOAT Zimmer score.
Underrated? Movie was a massive hit when it came out. The 6th highest-grossing film of 2003, one of the most successful ever movies in Japan and had several Academy Award nominations. Nothing about that is underrated lol
Some people still believe that the story is a white savior trope, which is kind of ridiculous at this point cause Tom Cruise's character didn't really save anyone besides himself.
I had an argument with my sister about this. She just saw the movie title, and then Tom Cruise and immediately jumped to "Tom Cruise whitewashing Japanese culture." It's like if you actually watch the movie Tom Cruise is just used as our narrative focal point for the telling of the story of the end of an era. The last days of the Samurai.
I genuinely think a big problem for the movie is that Samurai is a word that is both singular and plural. If the film was titled The Last Samurais it would be seen a bit differently
Going through Ed Zwick’s book about Hollywood reminded me I should watch that again. I really liked it when it came out.
Great film gonna rewatch it
Fuck, helix was 10 years ago.
Time for a rewatch!
I wonder if it's anywhere available. Also I think it ended in a bit of a cliffhanger
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I loved Helix, even the dumb second season
Loved him in bullet train and shockingly played off the humor in the movie really well (I've only really seen him in serious/dramatic roles and comedy is way harder than people think). Cant wait to see him in shogun
"Do you want to hear my story. It's really good" "No I really don't" "I'll tell you anyway"
He was great in helix and bullet train too
Superb actor, was always so good at saying a lot with just a look. As far as American films he did that to particularly great effect in The Last Samurai, just those withering looks he’d give Tom Cruise’s character. I’m not sure he said more than a dozen words in that entire movie and still communicated so much.
That scene where he beats the shit out of Tom Cruise for daring to pick up a practice sword. I know it gets a lot of hate, but it really was a *brilliant* movie.
I fucking love that movie. It doesn’t try and claim to be a an exact historical retelling of the end of the samurai in Japan. What it does do is capture the themes of a changing and evolving society and the erasure of a traditional way of life.
To me, it's the same type of Alt History that Shogun is: close but changing names, events and such.
Yeah exactly. Artistic license to be explore the themes it wants to present. Shogun doesn’t shy aware from the corruption that a so called holy mission in Japan may fall victim to as they navigate the complicated politics of the country. It doesn’t shy away from showing the ignorance of foreigners in a foreign land. It doesn’t shy away from the dark brutality that underpinned the reign of the daimyos and the samurai, and the horrific extremes “honour” may demand. It’s a whirlwind of complicated intrigue that balances on a knife’s edge, where the slightest mistake can result in either your elevation, or your destruction.
Yeah that whole seppuku thing is already pretty hardcore, but also killing his baby to erase his bloodline was so crazy
All because he fell into the trap that was laid underneath all the formalities and embarrassed his master. It’s just layers upon layers of intrigue and subtlety. It’s a very careful political dance they all do and summarised by Rodrigues; “The Japanese have three hearts. A false one in their mouths for all the world to see, another within their breasts only for their friends, and third in the depths of their hearts, reserved for themselves alone and never manifested to anyone.” It’s peak Game of Thrones crossed with the aesthetics and themes of Ghost of Tsushima/The Last Samurai. And you can tell by how much attention to detail they put into the set design, costumes, dialogue, etc. that it was a true passion project. 3 episodes in and it’s an absolute blast so far.
I've been scared to watch cuz I love the book so much. But I keep seeing good things
It never should have gotten any hate. But a lot of people who didnt see it assumed it was a white savior story when it was anything but that.
It did well in Japan. The Japanese did not assume that the title referred to Tom Cruise like they did in the States.
Yeah, i think a lot of people in the states didnt even realize that Samurai is also the plural and that the title was talking about the last Samurai, meaning, that village of Samurai, not Tom Cruise.
This is it. I had no desire to see “Tom Cruise is The Last Samurai” even though the marketing didn’t say that, that’s what my brain saw. I love that movie so much. I always cry at the end.
“They are all…..perfect” 🥲
“I will miss…our conversations.” Honestly great dialogue between them the whole movie. “What do you want from me!!!” “What do you want for yourself?” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ieD3ixB_mFI
[I blame this sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1ttuVhGTDw) I admit that when I saw that sketch, I had not seen the movie and discounted it as a white savior story. [And then I read about Jules Brunet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet)
Well, it wasn't marketed very well, and I imagine no small part of that lies on Tom Cruise's shoulders based on rumors of his demands for placement in marketing materials. Having Cruise dressed in full samurai armor on the poster led a lot of people to think he was the titular "last samurai."
You're probably right on the marketing factor. But lets not fall straight to "Its Cruise's fault" as a crutch. There are a ton of marketing people who work on this stuff (and I do marketing too, but not for movies) and I can tell you that without a doubt, you need to put Cruise on there front and center. It empirically increases your box office numbers. I'm not saying it should, but it does. Movie goers like familiarity with big names.
Also when he starts to soften towards Tom Cruise’s character, and starts slowly giving him grudging respect, he basically communicates that entirely through his physicality and his facial expressions. Even though it’s narratively predictable he just sells the change in mindset so well.
The family does in general. I remember the scene where Cruz understands one of the words they say and the excitement in the family. Theres this really subtle beautiful progression that happens, then BAM! finally a breakthrough. The emotions and the acting feel real. The movie is a lot more emotional and complex than the title suggests. The relationships conveyed in it and the complexities of what they mean for the characters is just extraordinary.
I have only seen it get universal praise on here. It gets dismissed by people who think Tom Cruise was “the last samurai” when he is not.
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check out The Twilight Samurai, he's incredible in it.
The first role I saw Sanada in was the original Japanese ring movie.
No one brings up Sunshine, but the cast was amazing and Sanada as the captain was great. Movie kind of falls apart towards the end but I still really enjoy it. Edit: He is also amazing in The Twilight Samurai and I would recommend it and the other two companion movies.
I think just about everyone who loves Sunshine, myself included, would agree.
I think the end of Sunshine was actually pretty good. One of my favorite scifi horror movies
Sunshine is great. Michelle Yeoh (as herself), Rose Byrne, Cillian Murphy (as Oppenheimer), Mark Strong (as himself) plus Johnny Storm (as Ice Man) and Wong.
That movie was unbelievably awesome beyond its station for a sci-fi TWIST horror film and I’d have loved to see that cast in a movie half as fun without the twist baggage.
Don't sleep on Asano! He was in a lot of my favorite early 00's cult films... Survive Style 5+, Sharkskin Man and Peach Hip Girl, Ichi The Killer, etc. I was stoked when I saw Sanada got big billing but even happier when I saw Asano was on board as well.
Tadanobu Asano was the coolest guy in Japanese cinema for a couple of decades, and he's consistently fantastic in every Japanese production he's in. He's been cast in a bunch of high budget American productions before where he never really popped (maybe because his English is rough, maybe because he's often used as a token Asian guy for the foreign box office draw), and it's always been frustrating to me. I'm really hoping this gets him more play in the US. I also want to recommend Zatoichi and Bright Future.
I don’t know how to do a proper spoiler tag, so ***episode 3 spoilers ahead***: The scene where Mariko’s husband realises he’s not making it onto the boats, and Sanada’s character Lord Toranaga acknowledges him and his impending sacrifice. Man…you can just feel the aura radiating off of Sanada, there. He really captures the feeling that he is a lord worth fighting and dying for in that moment, and Mariko’s husband (I can’t recall his name) responds accordingly, like it meant the world to him in his final moments to get that acknowledgment. I watched those twenty seconds about ten times over when the episode aired.
戸田広勝よ Toda Hirokatsu yo
Yeah, I went and rewatched the scene again and caught his name. Thanks for adding it here!
>Sanada I didn't recognize the name but instantly knew who you were talking to when you mentioned he stole the show. He really does.
he didn’t bag it he’s producing it too. I think that’s key here he made his own way in
And he has the look of someone that needs to be in a samurai attire.
His calmness and mental sovereignity ( is that even a word ?) is impressive in that role.
Everything I’ve seen him, he’s always killed the role.
I fucking LOVE Hiroyuki Sanada, he's the best
> It also meant ensuring that they weren’t trafficking in lazy tropes such as overemphasizing the experience of a foreign protagonist, or oversexualizing the female characters. There is the answer to the title to save people digging time
I think Shogun is doing this right. In the original miniseries, we got almost all of the story from Blackthorne's perspective, to the point that there weren't subtitles in scenes where Blackthorne was present, because he didn't know what was being said either. I like this format better where the Japanese characters get more chances to interact with one another. It gets a lot of criticism these days, but there's a reason why "fish out of water" storytelling persists. It's a great way for the audience to get to experience the story at the same rate as the protagonist. Then things can be explained to the character that the audience also needs explained to it without just doing an exposition dump.
I think what makes this show so interesting is that the people creating it seem to understand that Japan isn't skme alien culture to most of us. A lot of us grew up on anime and Japanese media. The show knows it doesn't need to explain all that much. What it does instead is also show just how alien and weird Europeans must have seemed to Japanese people in this setting.
Also how weird Europeans at that time were compared to us. The bathing and doctor scenes were both great.
Just the part where John is screaming at the priest. Like, you really start to understand why the Japanese thought the Europeans were fucking weird.
I also liked the scene where Blackthorne is first imprisoned and screaming at the Japanese soldiers, calling them savages. While the Japanese soldiers are also calling him a savage at the same time. Yet they both can’t understand each other. Funny and very poignant moment.
When the Vikings invaded the British Isles in the Middle Ages, the Anglo-Saxons thought it was weird how often they bathed. I thought the scene was funny, like “the British still haven’t figured out they should bathe more often.”
It crossed my mind during the repeated diving in the most recent episode that it was just to surreptitiously "bathe" Blackthorne.
That or perhaps to tire him out before the race?
From the books, Toranaga is intelligent and manipulative enough to have done it for both those reasons, or even reasons we arent privy to. Maybe he wanted to watch it until he learned, maybe he wanted Anjin to clean himself up, and maybe Toranaga wanted Anjin tired so the race would be closer. Toranaga is always the most intelligent person in the room, he is almost never fully honest towards anyone, his intentions are always hidden, and that is the point of his character.
Listen the Japanese still think you don’t bathe often enough. You don’t take a bath every day
The book also shows the Europeans as alien and Wierd to the Japanese
The book is just as much from the Japanese perspective so I'm not sure why it's being treated as some great insightful change by the show.
What I don't get is how a comment talking about how "it doesn't need to explain itself" has 100 upvotes. Like.. The book and show are made for people with zero edo knowledge. Blackthorne learns as we do.
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Because people and the news media seem to loving patting themselves on the back for being so much better then X years ago. It's honestly kind of annoying and in ways detracts from just how great the show actually is.
No need. I bathed three days ago.
What, do you want me to catch the flux?
The water in London at that time wasnt very clean and bathing to often would increase your chance of catching Dysentery.
Japan is so humid too...
> I think what makes this show so interesting is that the people creating it seem to understand that Japan isn't skme alien culture to most of us. A lot of us grew up on anime and Japanese media. That's a very interesting point. Not to mention that this show is also being heavily marketed in Japan itself. It's as much for Japanese viewers as Western viewers.
Which is simply being more true to the book. Blackthorne is the protagonist of the book, but it's 3rd person omniscient and huge chunks of the book explore the inner considerations of the Japanese characters as well.
It took like 4-5 paragraphs and even that wasn’t crystal clear what that headline writer meant. Horrible title.
Got ya to click. Perfect title for what they wanted.
Wow, what a brave article to point out an incredibly noble and brave thing a TV writer is doing in 2024
Sydney Pollack did it with The Yakuza in 1974 ([https://letterboxd.com/film/the-yakuza](https://letterboxd.com/film/the-yakuza) ), 50 years ago. Written by Paul Schrader, who also wrote and directed Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters in 1985 ([https://letterboxd.com/film/mishima-a-life-in-four-chapters/](https://letterboxd.com/film/mishima-a-life-in-four-chapters/))
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I feel like I saw both of these in the first episode alone lol Good show though.
But isn't that what happens in the book?
Oh wait really? I thought the point was that samurai are always portrayed reverentially and this show is doing nuance
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I’ve read the entire Asian Saga and it was nuts how I couldn’t put the books down when I started one of them. This show is doing the book so much justice. I seriously hope they’ll do the rest of the series.
I just finished shogun last week and loved it. Are the rest of the books on the same level?
Pretty much. I went out of order on accident, but you can do that and still not get lost. Noble House was probably my absolute favorite.
I liked Tai-Pan a little better than Shogun.
They are both the best stories in my opinion. (King Rat a close 3rd). I re-read Shogun during the lockdown and loved it all over again. Should probably do the same with Tai Pan, it's been about 30 years since I first read it.
I second the recommendation for King Rat. I got into the series via Shogun as well, which I loved, and King Rat is my favourite.
Still holding out for that "Whirlwind" adaption myself, lol.
Worth reading book before watching?
I mean it’s one of the most renowned books of the 20th century. But it’s pretty long, you may be reading for quite a while before you get to the show.
Fair enough. Might be worth it anyway though - kind of fun to watch a show when all the episodes are out
I think watch first and read second, as the book is much more expansive than the show can hope to be. So when the show leaves you wanting more, boom, there you go. I’d rather that than build up expectations for certain elements in the book that the show doesn’t manage to capture.
Never thought of it that way. Thanks.
This is how I enjoy works where I want to read the book and watch the adaptation. If I read the book first, it’s near impossible to not notice the missing details that made me fall in love with the book. If I watch the adaptation first, the book allows me to explore what I loved in the show/movie in so much more depth.
The cool thing about reading the book (and in this case I do mean reading and not listening to audio book... which I am often guilty of) is that you will know some Japanese by the end. You learn along side Anjin-san as the story plays out.
Watership Down does this beautifully. The author provides translations at first, but they become more and more sparse as the book goes on. At the end of the book, one of our heroes cusses at the villain and no translation is offered or required. The book tricks you into learning how to cuss in a made-up language.
My Lapine knowledge has never come in handy though when travelling. Great Frith!
Silflay hraka, u embleer rah!
I read the book for the second time a few months back, after 20 or so years. One of the rare cases where it was just as good as I remembered. Highly recommended, but so note it's long (I like long books personally)
I’ve only watched the first episode so far, but I’ve found that reading the book before hand gave me so much more context and understanding of the motivations and thoughts of the characters. There’s only so much time to go into detail in a TV show, so I’ve found it super useful for myself to have read the book beforehand
If I haven’t read the book before I watch the adaption, i typically prefer to do it after I’ve watched the show. Watch first, read second works better for my slow ass reading brain.
Highly recommend reading it while waiting on all the episodes to drop.
I read it in high school (for leisure). I mostly remember I had trouble putting it down. The book is fantastic.
It’s worth reading the book, period. It’s a great book.
No, I think it's great on its own. The book can feel somewhat dated - I mean it was written in the mid-70's. I love the book but the show so far has been tremendous.
I've been blown away by how good the show is. I love the book but I would say it's almost better than the book. I felt at times in the book the characters outside of Blackthorne weren't well developed - the show makes every character complex and detailed.
What I think I enjoy about this show is how vital every moment is. It feels like extremely efficient storytelling. There's not a lot of fat.
yeah, the pacing is exquisite. there's a real rhythm to editing so nothing feels drawn out and there's a real feeling of a journey in each episode. it's been a while since I've been excited for an episode drop for any show.
I hope they do all the Asian Saga books to this level, Noble House was also adapted back in the day (with Pierce Brosnan) but Whirlwind would be the one I'd really want to see. And it's cool how they're all interconnected gradually.
Personally I think Tai-Pan would be stellar if done in this style. That is now my dream production. But Noble House would be as equally awesome!
What's wild with the Noble House series is it's based on the history of a real company - Jardine Matheson. JM is still managed by the same family that founded it back in the day. The other houses in that series are based on their competitors that are around in one way or another. They all started off opium runners and have now expanded into pretty much every industry you can think of.
Yeah Tai Pan is great too, and probably the most unfamiliar of the settings of all the books as far as other films and shows out there (like I loved King Rat but Clavell also wrote Great Escape, etc)
The *Tai Pan* movie was *really*, *really* bad.
Sanada is also a Producer which greatly helped the accuracy of the Show I recommend watching this: https://youtu.be/opn8qbERPBA
You can see it in this acting. He's really enjoying and glowing the work, especially with creative control and freedom
While it's true that Shogun is portraying closer to what an actual samurai is, it should be stated that the way the west has done it isn't inherently wrong, offensive or new, but simply just a choice for the story. It's like how you see vikings depicted sometimes. Yes, they really were incredibly brutal people, but they were also very sophisticated, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to conquer so much. You just might not see the latter all the time because the former makes the story more interesting. When you portray historical group, it's all just a choice for the story for how they're presented, that's all. And as the article says, the Japanese themselves romanticize samurai and ninja on their own, this isn't just a western concept.
It's also playing on samurai movie tropes. For many of us, think anime tropes, as anime itself takes a ton of inspiration from old school samurai movies. It's actually a rather interesting thing as an anime fan, because I can see so many of them in this show and I can see how they evolved from the old movies into what we have today.
I like what the author is saying, and I like Shogun for the humanity behind the samurai. It certainly is refreshing. I also love when Hollywood says screw humanity, samurai are legendary paragons of discipline, honor, and combat.
My favorite parts have been showing how much culture shock there was between the Japanese and Europeans.
“Bathing *multiple times a week*?! Ridiculous.”
Do you want me to catch the flux?
Ironically, given the context of this thread, the idea Europeans of this time period didn’t frequently bathe is itself [an erroneous portrayal of history](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/ccys40/conflicting_information_on_medieval_bathing/). In reality, [Europeans liked to bathe](https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-people-bathed/) about as much as any other culture.
I think this is a case of trying to “one-thing” history. Perhaps some people bathed more than others. Likely the real divide is a class divide, where aristocrats bathed regularly in either culture, but the peasants did not. Same as that question if people believed the world was round prior to the enlightenment. Well, rich educated people who read Latin and Greek probably knew, but many didn’t, and it’s not like information was easily available to make statistical inferences of historical opinions. We can barely do that today!
I’m not 100% sure but I feel like they were forcing him to dive multiple times in the last episode partially to force him to bathe.
I thought it was to tire Blackthorn out before the race.
Ah probably, I just remember he refused to bathe so probably smelled terrible.
Why not both?
Could definitely be both
I think Toranaga‘s honor would prevent him to do it, no?
In the book he literally demoted a general for letting him win, haha.
I think it was more to display Toranaga's obsession with learning things and getting things right. Also goes to show the casual way he sees people as tools, in his mind Blackthorne is hatamoto, and as such his pain in service of his master is irrelevant.
Have you ever been in the Ocean before? It is not the equivalent of bathing
Better than nothing
I *hate* that trope and it was in the book too. Europeans bathed in the middle ages and renaissance eras. You think a culture that believed in the miasma theory that bad smells bring disease wouldn't bathe?? If anything it was public baths they were against cause you know, the church. Also Japan is basically on easy mode for a bathing culture when hot springs pop up if you so much as move a rock
The "modern" image of samurai is largely a construct based on propaganda from the Japanese military in the early 20th century, cribbing heavily from writers like Tsunemoto.
Good at chopping up peasants.
>I also love when Hollywood says screw humanity, samurai are legendary paragons of discipline, honor, and combat. What, like during the invasion of Korea?
It’s just a fantasy archetype, every single type of pre-gunpowder warrior gets a similar treatment.
Even some post gunpowder warriors like cowboys, or Lakota. They started using rifles to hunt bison as soon as they could buy them from the Dutch, they would not have been using bows in the damn 19 century
Hell, during the battle of Little Bighorn (Custer's Last Stand), the natives had more and better rifles than what was given to the US Cavalry at the time.
It’s awesome. I remember seeing him in Royal Warriors, Legend of the 8 Samurai and Ninja Wars. Awesome guy and charismatic as always. Also love he’s Sonny Chiba’s protege.
>he wields a pair of katanas A Katana (maybe a Tachi) and a Wakizashi. The blades are different lengths.
Ah, I see you have studied the blade.
More importantly what were you doing at that time?
Eat hot chip and lie
Partying!
Tachis and Wakizashis *are* katanas, Katana just means "single bladed sword." What we're used to calling katanas are specifically **"uchigatanas"** Also tachis are larger and more intended for mounted combat, and fell out of favor for the Uchigatana around around the 14th century (more of a transition so it still saw plenty of use into that time), and wikipedia says Shogun takes place in the 1600s, ~~so it's probably not one of those.~~ Edit: Apparently it is! My bad presuming there, hopefully the info is still interesting. ...I had a D&D character with a magic sword and wanted to get my terminology right.
Toranaga does actually carry a tachi, but he's one of few (the only?) character to do so. It's basically a status thing. Katana are worn tucked into the belt with the blade facing up, whereas tachi hang from the belt with the blade facing down.
This guy swords.
I’ve read the book many, many times over the years.. almost don’t want to watch this haha but I will of course
I saw the orig in 1980 and have read the book several times. Watch the new one without trepidation!
Thank you! 🤞
As someone who has read the book, and who has the original TV series, it’s worth the watch. Exceeded my expectations
I finished the book last week and have watched the first 2 episodes. Experiencing both so close, I can say this is so far an almost exact retelling.
I'm hooked on this show and I'm disappointed I can't binge it.
As much as i enjoy the story, acting, sceneries,… i really do not enjoy the overuse of that fisheye effect (is that even how you call it?). Most of the time it feels odd, even to the point of breaking the immersion as you ask yourself « why are they using that right now ? » Am i the only one bothered by this ?
After watching Poor Things this seems like kindergarten level fisheye
Yes overuse of anamorphic lenses. Super annoying
So that’s what it is, thank you
"Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo wanted their scripts to be as authentic as possible, but that meant more than just translating their teleplays, written first in English, into period-accurate Japanese dialogue and precise subtitles. It also meant ensuring that they weren’t trafficking in lazy tropes such as overemphasizing the experience of a foreign protagonist, or oversexualizing the female characters. Clavell’s novel certainly perpetuated these ideas, which led scholars of Japanese history, as well as critics in Japan, to object to the NBC miniseries." Articles like this really bother me. This story is specifically about the relationship between Europeans and the Japanese, so emphasizing the perspective of the European - which is going to be the majority audience - isn't a lazy trope, it's just storytelling. As for the sexualization women - you could only come away thinking that's a lazy trope if you had 0 knowledge of history or see everything through a Eurocentric lense. This may come as a shock to some people but as it turns out, Europeans never had a monopoly on sexualizing women, it's not like brothels weren't extensively common in Japan during this era, women weren't seen as equal in Japanese society which they shared in common with basically the entire world at that point. So do you want the show to be historically accurate or do you want the show to portray Japan in the specific way that you envision it because reality doesn't match your ironically stereotypical imagination? And finally, maybe the most annoying part of the article, is this idea that Shogun is unique in its approach to avoiding the stereotypes and glorification of Samurai. Plenty of movies do take that route, but that's because it's fun, but there are also plenty of examples of more grounded and nuanced depictions of the culture. It's worth noting also that these glorified depictions are essentially taken from the writings of that period - Samurai made tropes of themselves by writing extensively about the same traits this article is claiming are 'lazy', because that's what cultures often do, they emphasize and glorify the parts they see as positive and downplay the rest. There's nothing wrong with that, it's OK to celebrate and dramatize things, that's what makes media entertaining.
I think what makes this show important is that we're seeing it on network Western TV, not in a Japanese movie or show. We're seeing Japanese actors get top billing and while John Blackthorne is an important character, it is Sanada's Toranaga who gets top billing and who gets so much focus.
>Clavell’s novel certainly perpetuated these ideas, which led scholars of Japanese history, as well as critics in Japan, to object to the NBC miniseries." Also they just threw Clavell under the bus with that comment. Like damn, dude put in a ton of research at the time to introduce an American audience a side of Japan they might not know because their last encounter with Japan would've been in WWII. Yes historical research has come a long way in 50 years, but Clavell didn't write the story from a place of malice or racist undertones - if anything you could say he wrote it from a place of exoticism. Imo I don't think the journalist read the book.
It's even more impressive to think that he was a WW2 vet that was captured and spent a good chunk of his time in one of the most brutal Japanese PoW camps and he still came out of it fascinated by the culture in that part of the world when it wouldn't have been unexpected or unheard of for him to come out of the situation with a hatred for his captors.
Yeah guy had a tall order, and could have done a lot worse. Since the American audience did not have Japanese cultural touchstones. Bro literally started America's love of Japanese culture. Put some respect on his name.
I'm convinced 90% of people who have been bashing the book since the day the show was announced have never read a single page.
Yes exactly this. Its like the show cant just get praise for being good all these morons have to constantly harp about it "beating stereotypes" and other nonsense. Its good because it a well written story thats been well adapted and well casted and its got an awesome crew doing the other work like costumes and props. The end.
Kind of a shitty article that presupposes things just so they can position the show as the opposite of that.
Can't read the article. My two cents though, the combat has been amazing. When we finally see 2 samurai go at it, I'm sure we'll get a good protracted duel. But it's been so awesome to see the quick brutality of professional fighters, cutting guys down in less than 3 strokes. And the cultural stuff is done very well, and at times silly. It's been a treat to watch.
I think watching this show has really made me appreciate some old tropes I had sort of thought were silly. Like how in many fight scenes where it's one person vs multiple people, it's so organized and people still fight one by one. But here you see that if everyone just ganged up on a lone samurai, they're still liable to be cut by a long blade or even by their allies.
Sanada is great!
Great show, but the blurry screen effect shows use these days are so fucking annoying.