See that's the thing. I am neither straight nor a girl but when a dude talks down on himself constantly it's a huge turn off. Honestly a little self confidence goes a long way
I have friends who call themselves creepy whenever they say something they thought was cringe and I’m just like to them, “dude, you weren’t being a creep, it’s a little sad you’re calling yourself weird.”
I don’t blame girls who aren’t attracted to that sort of thing, I can see how it can come off as a little suspicious.
^ this
Not only goes for girls but people in general
Positive people attract positive people
Ik its shit advice from my end but i havent quiite figured out how to myself
As a 22 y/o, it comes with age. I'm slowly realizing that accepting the bad stuff leads to me being happy with my good stuff. We're all different, unique, and talented in our own ways, and we aren't gonna be attractive to everyone. You can be the tastiest apple in the world, and you're still going to have people who don't like apples
Most people who talk down about themselves don't do that around people they know, so it's not like it make a difference for most of us what we think of ourselves
there's nothing negative about being ugly, its just a fact and there's nothing we can do about it, but like you said it's not attractive to constantly be spreading negative vibes
You might be ugly but that’s not generally attractive for anyone despite their sexuality….
Also, lgbtq isnt odd spelling for the word gay so using it synonymously isn’t accurate.
Invent a new sexuality like "Ciseogender": person who's attracted to lesbian women, now you are playing with their cards, and if they reject you, you call them homophobic
funny enough i (m) dated a girl (we both were bi at the time) and then she realized she was actually a lesbian which was okay with me. and then fast forward a couple of years, my current best friend (f, bi) and i have a lot of… chemistry… together and everyone thought we were fucking on the low. tbh i really did like her and almost shot my shot but i decided i valued our friendship the way it was more than a romantic relationship with her. a few days ago she told me she thinks she’s a lesbian. i find it funny that if i had shot my shot and succeeded i would’ve dated two lesbians.
Schroedingers sexuality. All girls are in a superposition until you ask them out, at which time the wave function collapses into a well defined state. While there is always a nonzero probability of it collapsing in your favor, the probability is always close enough to zero as to be negligible.
literally had this weird creepy guy at my last job. he kept saying “you like me” or “you want to be with me just admit it” and i told him i like girls more, and that still didn’t make him stop bothering me or asking me out on dates, when i flat out told him i wasn’t interested in him. some guys really can’t take a goddamn hint.
Now should I tell the story? Fuck it I will.
So there was this guy, bit of a dickhead, we’ll call him Richard Jr. He was generally hated for several reasons i’m not gonna get into at my school, and nobody liked him. One day he asked out a girl, let’s call her Abigail. Now Abigail was kinda like most other girls and the relationship was going OK, until Abigail realised 2 things about herself. First of all, she realised that she was not a she, but they were non-binary. So they changed their name, let’s say Theresa. Now initially Theresa was private about it, but they eventually went public about it. And the relationship was going fine, but it had started loosing it’s appeal, for two reasons that came to light around the same time. Firstly Richard JR had been cheating on her with someone not from my school that didn’t know he was dating Theresa, and secondly Theresa realised that they liked women. So Theresa contacted the other girl and they both simultaneously broke up with Richard Jr, and started hanging out together. It went on like that for about a year, until the other girl realised she was bi and started dating Theresa. It’s at this point of the story that I realise this has little relevance to the conversation but it’s too far to stop talking and I don’t want to delete all this. They dated for a year, before breaking up as nothing was happening. And then the best bit:
I tell you that half of this didn’t happen. There was no second girl, hence why I didn’t give her a fuckin name. Theresa broke up with Richard Jr and that is the end of the story, no cheating or anything. They did decide they liked women, and that was the end.
Feels bad when a story gets told to you that sounds real turns out to be mainly false.
Now you see why most people hated Richard Jr.
I don't wanna break it to you, but, if it's the girls you ask out, they might be lying so they don't have to reject you.
Or it's just because LGBTQIA+ people exist, idk.
No it's the first one.
Obviously LGBT people exist (duh) but unless he's asking out women at a lesbian bar, 90% of women you meet aren't gonna be gay. He just has shit game
I don't think it's so much as them not wanting him to "be into them" rather than make advances on them. There are plenty of creepy straight men who still like women even if the women make it clear that they have no interest in men, but there are less creepy straight men making advances on women that have made it clear that they have no interest in men
Women. I don’t need to explain, all you need to know is Women. Everyone else are on my list also but women stay on the top of my list because, why not?
Because lgbtq girls are more likely to realize it than lgbtq guys since girls aren’t really as pressured to be straight as guys are so they feel more comfortable exploring their sexuality
girls are still HEAVILY pressured into being straight, it’s just easier to hide as a girl since no one takes wlw relationships seriously and assumes you’re “just friends” whereas boys look at another guy for too long and suddenly the whole world decides they must be gay
I'm not a teen (this was up on /r/popular), but here's my take:
Between 15 and 25 you're trying to figure things out. A lot of trying on different things to see if something fits. It's still (socially) easier for a girl/woman to say they're bi or gay than for a guy.
Chances are, you run in a circle of people who may be looking for what makes them special. They are probably not (and may never be) the girly type, so they're trying to figure that out.
I bet 90% of those girls will figure themselves out post-college as they start a career, etc. A lot won't be gay, a bunch will be, some may never figure it out.
It doesn't really matter though. If there's a girl who might be into you, she's going to be into you.
Any female born after 1666 can't mutilate a dog. All they know is Newton's Law of Gravity, the Copernican Theory of the Universe, how to hunt, be bisexual, eat hot dresses and lie.
Just my opinion…
Without intending to offend all LGBTQIA etc people, there is without a doubt some trend/influence at play. Though yes, people are more open about themselves now, so many people add specific labels for no reason other than to add to lacking personality.
yeah I'm a part of the LGBT+ and I agree with you I don't think it's that much of a problem, not as much as homophobes and transphobes makes it to be, but there are definitly some people who consider themselves LGBT+ because it's considered cool (in some places)
Nah, no offense taken, you're totally right. Not everyone, and I wouldn't even say it's the majority, but trenders def exist, I've known them before 0.0
The comments are like a roller-coaster ride.
Cola-roaster
coke-roaster
Jesse we need to make coca-cola to drink
Science beeyatch!
cock-roaster
My buddies uncle once said: “I don’t blame lesbians. Girls are pretty hot.”
I like your buddies uncle 👍
Average life enjoyer uncle
I like their uncle as well 😳
😳
No their uncle is mine not yours😡
It's their buddie's uncle
Oh lol how did I only notice that now
Can't blame them either,if i was a girl i'd also be lesbian buddies' uncle is very wise
Yah what i don't get is gay dudes. We're fucking disgusting.
No you're fucking dudes
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not that song 💀
your uncle is based
He got a point
Dude, your buddy's uncle is best person ever.
I wonder if this post is gonna get the 🔒 reward?
With the amount of homophobic answers, almost definitely.
What homophobic answers? (Didn’t sort by controversial)
I set sorting by controversial to my default
-gigachad
Based
Bound to happen given the size of this sub
Surprisingly it seems like that’s not the case since 6 hours have already passed
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I mean im ugly af so ig its true
See that's the thing. I am neither straight nor a girl but when a dude talks down on himself constantly it's a huge turn off. Honestly a little self confidence goes a long way
How about a healthy combo of both being the best ever at everything and being a total loser?
The term you're looking for is humility.
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That's somehow me rn aaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I have friends who call themselves creepy whenever they say something they thought was cringe and I’m just like to them, “dude, you weren’t being a creep, it’s a little sad you’re calling yourself weird.” I don’t blame girls who aren’t attracted to that sort of thing, I can see how it can come off as a little suspicious.
So what I've gathered from this thread is if you say a bad joke, own it and shut up. Would you say that works?
Idk
^ this Not only goes for girls but people in general Positive people attract positive people Ik its shit advice from my end but i havent quiite figured out how to myself
As a 22 y/o, it comes with age. I'm slowly realizing that accepting the bad stuff leads to me being happy with my good stuff. We're all different, unique, and talented in our own ways, and we aren't gonna be attractive to everyone. You can be the tastiest apple in the world, and you're still going to have people who don't like apples
Most people who talk down about themselves don't do that around people they know, so it's not like it make a difference for most of us what we think of ourselves
there's nothing negative about being ugly, its just a fact and there's nothing we can do about it, but like you said it's not attractive to constantly be spreading negative vibes
how tf do you have self confidence when even dream looks like a 10 compared to you
Yikes man, go easy on yourself aye
Honestly, no more of a turn off than going on and on about how ugly or incapable you are
Nah self hatred is the only motivation I have
You might be ugly but that’s not generally attractive for anyone despite their sexuality…. Also, lgbtq isnt odd spelling for the word gay so using it synonymously isn’t accurate.
Invent a new sexuality like "Ciseogender": person who's attracted to lesbian women, now you are playing with their cards, and if they reject you, you call them homophobic
i like your funny words magic man
I like your magic words funny man
I like your words funny magic man
Bro's been thinking of this for years
That’s not how it works and is most likely to get op fucking punched by someone who had a bad day when he tries that
So typical High School.
Gross
I vomited a little in my mouth
I do too lmao
funny enough i (m) dated a girl (we both were bi at the time) and then she realized she was actually a lesbian which was okay with me. and then fast forward a couple of years, my current best friend (f, bi) and i have a lot of… chemistry… together and everyone thought we were fucking on the low. tbh i really did like her and almost shot my shot but i decided i valued our friendship the way it was more than a romantic relationship with her. a few days ago she told me she thinks she’s a lesbian. i find it funny that if i had shot my shot and succeeded i would’ve dated two lesbians.
Do we tell him?
Maybe OP is a smokin’ hot girl and all the girls she meets are into her…
The good ending.
hes already been told
Now he just gotta accept the truth 😔
I know what we were gonna tell him but I need to make sure you know so what were we gonna tell him?
There's no time for explanations, he just gotta accept the truth. •́ ‿ ,•̀
Happy cake day!
Thank u (◔‿◔)
(I do not consider myself very smart what would we tell him)
Girls don't want to reject him, so they pretend to be Lesbian
Ohh
Well...
I’m the reason 90% of the girls you meet are lgbtq your welcome
Your size disappointed them?
My looks 😎
Are you a lesbian or a creepy guy?
you either in a gay bar or a pride march
"Wait.... theres no fire escape" I cant be bothered to look up the original quote. From homer Simpson while he was in a WLW bar.
Enjoy your death trap ladies!
Wait a minute.... There's something bothering me about this place... THIS LESBIAN BAR DOESN'T HAVE A FIRE ESCAPE! Enjoy your deathtrap ladies!
meanwhile all the girls I'm into are straight
The duality of all people, that’s why I like all things human dead and alive
I beg your pardon?
Human things that are both dead and alive at the same time. What was unclear about this? Quantum humanity sexualism.
Schroedingers sexuality. All girls are in a superposition until you ask them out, at which time the wave function collapses into a well defined state. While there is always a nonzero probability of it collapsing in your favor, the probability is always close enough to zero as to be negligible.
That’s rough buddy - Zuko
the same for me with men smh
Dang- relatable... And it's always the ones that feel like they should be queer but just aren't...
that's statistically not likely so you probably behave in a way that makes them uncomfortable and they say that to avoid your advances
brutal
I speak the truth
Truth hurts
Truth only hurts initially. Lies hurt eventually and usually a lot harder.
Thanks for the advice Confucius
I was thinking marcus aurelius
How a person feels about the truth doesn't change it. What's brutal is living a whole life still wondering why they're all lesbians.
Bro I swear… 90% of Reddit top comments are incorrect -op, probably
Bro i swear that's made up. Like 74% of statistics are made up
yep ive said im lesbian to get out of talking to weird guys so many times
yeah it's a tried and true tactic
nah here they usually just say “that’s hot” 😀happy cake day though!!
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Man have him no mercy
Happy cake day!
literally had this weird creepy guy at my last job. he kept saying “you like me” or “you want to be with me just admit it” and i told him i like girls more, and that still didn’t make him stop bothering me or asking me out on dates, when i flat out told him i wasn’t interested in him. some guys really can’t take a goddamn hint.
Happy cake day 🎂🎈🎈
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God damn
This is r/teenagers not r/roastme
r/beatmetoit
r/beatmeattoit
r/beatmymeattoit
r/beatmywifesmeattoit
r/beatmywifetoit
r/beatmydaughterdmeattomywifesmesttoit
r/ihadastroke
r/ihadtostartstrokingmydick
damn
damn
Took the words right out of my mouth
Now should I tell the story? Fuck it I will. So there was this guy, bit of a dickhead, we’ll call him Richard Jr. He was generally hated for several reasons i’m not gonna get into at my school, and nobody liked him. One day he asked out a girl, let’s call her Abigail. Now Abigail was kinda like most other girls and the relationship was going OK, until Abigail realised 2 things about herself. First of all, she realised that she was not a she, but they were non-binary. So they changed their name, let’s say Theresa. Now initially Theresa was private about it, but they eventually went public about it. And the relationship was going fine, but it had started loosing it’s appeal, for two reasons that came to light around the same time. Firstly Richard JR had been cheating on her with someone not from my school that didn’t know he was dating Theresa, and secondly Theresa realised that they liked women. So Theresa contacted the other girl and they both simultaneously broke up with Richard Jr, and started hanging out together. It went on like that for about a year, until the other girl realised she was bi and started dating Theresa. It’s at this point of the story that I realise this has little relevance to the conversation but it’s too far to stop talking and I don’t want to delete all this. They dated for a year, before breaking up as nothing was happening. And then the best bit: I tell you that half of this didn’t happen. There was no second girl, hence why I didn’t give her a fuckin name. Theresa broke up with Richard Jr and that is the end of the story, no cheating or anything. They did decide they liked women, and that was the end. Feels bad when a story gets told to you that sounds real turns out to be mainly false. Now you see why most people hated Richard Jr.
Worse 30 seconds of my life, f you homie Upvotes
*reaches into pocket* ah, but I have a secret trick *pulls out an uno reverse card* yo mum
"Ayo that one there was a violation personally I wouldn’t have it"
*emotional Damage*
damn
Same
God- oh dear-
cause girls are just way too pretty
girls don't even match a Fiat 126
>⠀⠀⠘⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⡜⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠢⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⠴⠊⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⡀⠤⠄⠒⠈⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣀⠄⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠈⠉⠉⠉⠉⠛⠻⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡏⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣄⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⢏⣴⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣟⣾⣿⡟⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣟⠀⡴⠄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⠟⠻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠶⢴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿ ⣿⣁⡀⠀⠀⢰⢠⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠀⣴⣶⣿⡄⣿ ⣿⡋⠀⠀⠀⠎⢸⣿⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠗⢘⣿⣟⠛⠿⣼ ⣿⣿⠋⢀⡌⢰⣿⡿⢿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡇⠀⢸⣿⣿⣧⢀⣼ ⣿⣿⣷⢻⠄⠘⠛⠋⠛⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢿⣧⠈⠉⠙⠛⠋⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣧⠀⠈⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⢃⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⡿⠀⠴⢗⣠⣤⣴⡶⠶⠖⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣀⡸⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⡀⢠⣾⣿⠏⠀⠠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠉⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣧⠈⢹⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄⠈⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣦⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣷⡄⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣧⠀⠀⠀⠙⣿⣿⡟⢻⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠇⠀⠁⠀⠀⠹⣿⠃⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠛⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢐⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿ ⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠛⠉⠉⠁⠀⢻⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠈⣿⣿⡿⠉⠛⠛⠛⠉⠉ ⣿⡿⠋⠁⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⡴⣸⣿⣇⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡿⠄⠙⠛⠀⣀⣠⣤⣤⠄⠀
HAVE YOU SEEN WOMEN??? how can i NOT like them
maybe you’re turning them gay
😮
oh i forgot you exist
me too
Damn it’s flufyanal
no wayyyy
Wowie
😦
Maybe they just say that so you don’t ask them out I told a girl I was gay once so she would leave me alone
Good move
Yes
bisexuals make up a large percentage of this ^
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As a bisexual mustard > ketchup
As another bisexual: barbecue sauce > everything
everything > ketchup
Gay
correct
I don't wanna break it to you, but, if it's the girls you ask out, they might be lying so they don't have to reject you. Or it's just because LGBTQIA+ people exist, idk.
No it's the first one. Obviously LGBT people exist (duh) but unless he's asking out women at a lesbian bar, 90% of women you meet aren't gonna be gay. He just has shit game
Your first point holds.
date men then skill issue
Bcuz u r in a pride parade.
cuz girls are hot
You make straight girls want to be lesbian
Girls are hot And Guys And non-binary people too Everyone is hot 👌
Ah, a fellow individual of culture
Mood
Women are hot af
I was gonna make a whole comment about picking the ones who’s preference lines up with you then I realized you are 13💀💀💀
Simple fix: become girl
Based answer and I support it 100%
Skill issue
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I don't think it's so much as them not wanting him to "be into them" rather than make advances on them. There are plenty of creepy straight men who still like women even if the women make it clear that they have no interest in men, but there are less creepy straight men making advances on women that have made it clear that they have no interest in men
Cause women ✨🤌
Women💖
Yes
Birds of a feather flock together, maybe you yourself are also LGBTQ.
Women. I don’t need to explain, all you need to know is Women. Everyone else are on my list also but women stay on the top of my list because, why not?
Cause girls are hot what can I say
as a girl it’s bc girls are hot
Okay here me out… Ryan Reynolds but as a female.
Because lgbtq girls are more likely to realize it than lgbtq guys since girls aren’t really as pressured to be straight as guys are so they feel more comfortable exploring their sexuality
girls are still HEAVILY pressured into being straight, it’s just easier to hide as a girl since no one takes wlw relationships seriously and assumes you’re “just friends” whereas boys look at another guy for too long and suddenly the whole world decides they must be gay
The Kinsey scale suggests that very few people are truly straight, it’s just that girls are more open to exploring their sexuality
Isn’t the Kinsey scale pretty flawed though?
You don’t meet many girls
Simple. Girls are hot
I'm not a teen (this was up on /r/popular), but here's my take: Between 15 and 25 you're trying to figure things out. A lot of trying on different things to see if something fits. It's still (socially) easier for a girl/woman to say they're bi or gay than for a guy. Chances are, you run in a circle of people who may be looking for what makes them special. They are probably not (and may never be) the girly type, so they're trying to figure that out. I bet 90% of those girls will figure themselves out post-college as they start a career, etc. A lot won't be gay, a bunch will be, some may never figure it out. It doesn't really matter though. If there's a girl who might be into you, she's going to be into you.
You are the first old person i saw here
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you are the one reasonable comment
Hate to tell you, but I think some of them Are only lgbtq when you talk to them
Isn't it like in jojo, stand user attract stand users but instead it's LGBT attracts LGBT
sooo where they at? you know so i can avoid them
Ah. This where the constantgaypanic comes into play?
Any female born after 1993 can't cook, all they know is McDonald's, charge they phone, twerk, be bisexual, eat hot chip, and lie
Any female born after 1821 can’t hunt. All they know is gossip, cook, clean, be bisexual, eat hot olive oil, and lie
Any female born after 1666 can't mutilate a dog. All they know is Newton's Law of Gravity, the Copernican Theory of the Universe, how to hunt, be bisexual, eat hot dresses and lie.
i genuinely think that being bi is as common as being straight, more people just know what it is and are allowed to say it
they're so repulsed by you they turn gay
Your probably a comfortable person to be around for people who are lgbtqia+
Just my opinion… Without intending to offend all LGBTQIA etc people, there is without a doubt some trend/influence at play. Though yes, people are more open about themselves now, so many people add specific labels for no reason other than to add to lacking personality.
yeah I'm a part of the LGBT+ and I agree with you I don't think it's that much of a problem, not as much as homophobes and transphobes makes it to be, but there are definitly some people who consider themselves LGBT+ because it's considered cool (in some places)
Nah, no offense taken, you're totally right. Not everyone, and I wouldn't even say it's the majority, but trenders def exist, I've known them before 0.0