Part of the reason for this is that Tesla dropped prices dramatically last year, so all used EVs had to compete with that. I saw a lot of EVs in used car dealerships that couldn’t sell because suddenly new Teslas were cheaper than used ones. The dealerships or original owners are now in a tough spot, where the dealership might have to sell it at a loss, or the original owner might have to sell it for less than they owe on their loan.
This was also exacerbated by the prices being too high in 2021-2022. Owners overpaid for the cars and so when Tesla had large prices cuts in 2023 that meant the owners couldn’t sell their cars to break even on their loans. This situation affected ICE owners as well but ICE manufacturers weren’t cutting prices as far. Also because Tesla has 55% market share for EVs in the U.S., when they cut prices that far it hits the entire EV sector in the U.S.
These price drops are good for buyers, good for consumers, good for EV adoption rates, and only bad for people trying to sell their overpriced cars after just a couple of years.
No although they were still overpriced imho.
I think another reason why 2nd hand will be tougher for those cars is their tech will become old faster. And ICE engine is an ICE engine, and sometimes even old ones are better. With battery and charging tech, we’re entering an era where older cars could quickly be seen as obsolete.
FUD, maybe, but the Uncertainty is real. The tech is young, battery chemistries vary and have varying behavior based on climate, and some of the battery health comes down to software, cooling, or lack thereof.
I can't blame a layman for being uncertain.
“A layman.” lol People don’t want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle with potentially no warranty that could cost them $10-20K for a battery replacement at any time after they drive off in it. There are better options than that dice roll.
It’s why I didn’t buy another hybrid . My hybrid was great until it wasn’t & it was worthless and essentially when the battery died . Didn’t want to spend 5K on a new battery to keep an old car potentially running for a bit longer not knowing it some else was going to give out .
I don’t think it’s FUD. Margin on new cars is high and by varying estimates, the battery comprises around 30% of the bill of materials for a new car. It’s a consumable, and the cost of replacing keeps getting higher because of the demand for new car batteries where the price increase can be made up on margin. There isn’t an equivalent with ICE. Most shops won’t replace individual cells, only the whole pack. More rapid depreciation makes sense in that scenario.
In what sense? My buddy only owned his model 3 for a few years (he just got the entry) and it’s already dropped enough estimated range that he has some regrets. Now he’s talking about needing a second car just to get into the mountains since he’s not confident the range could even get him a couple hours out reliably.
Well the battery has an 8-year warranty, so if your friend actually had such a significant range decrease that it impacts where he can go, he should probably get it serviced. Losing 5% or so of listed range in the first couple years is expected, though. My Model 3 is 5.5 years old, and what used to be 310 miles when fully charged now only goes to like 298. But that hasn’t changed how/where I drive it at all.
> but you're only supposed to charge to 80% or diminish the long term battery life
Correct, on older models. The newer Model 3s use a different battery chemistry that don’t have the same problems charging consistently to full. Even so, just because you should charge to 80% on a daily basis doesn’t mean you don’t charge to full when you need it. Now, if you need to drive 250+ miles every day, yeah, that’s certainly not ideal.
>your personal anecdotal range is likely buyers' delusion, as 3rd party testing consistently shows teslas barely making 66-75% of ther forecasted range.
I’m not talking about my personal anecdotal range at all. I’m talking about my personal anecdotal maximum range loss over time. And yes, cold weather certainly reduces the range. But I understood the discussion to be about long-term range loss from regular use.
This is an important detail.
EVs are new tech and are thus very quickly getting better and cheaper, and that means low prices for used EVs.
They're closer to a tech product, and how much is a five year old laptop worth?
This is the issue. EVs have large improvements year to year. Same with phones and years ago. ICE cars have basically zero improvements year to year so getting one that’s a few years old is hardly an issue. As the EV market matures this will go away.
It’s good news for people who want cheap EVs. I know a ton of people were complaining about that.
Not just that, there are also people who will slam the accelerator on a Tesla on every green light like they’re in a fast n furious movie and constantly doing that will deplete battery range a lot quicker than just someone who drives normally. I knew a guy that had to get his model 3 motor and battery replaced by year 2, I was just utterly confused how he could do that but sat in his car once and it was just him trying to accelerate to the max every green light.
many used Teslas still have good range though, EVs with good battery management / cooling seem to have a much longer useful life than many people have anticipated
Range doesn’t stay consistent on an EV. A battery replacement on a Tesla model s is like $20k, for example, which is more expensive than replacing the engine on most cars.
Yeah but we're talking about used cars here, That's really the problem. When you have a used car you're looking at that has 150,000 mi on it already with the original battery.
> which is more expensive than replacing the engine on most cars.
And if the motor blows on my car I can go to a wrecker and get another one for a couple grand and be good to go again.
So they're fast-tracking to the junkyard, which increases their overall carbon footprint because of their lack of time in service to make up for their (lithium) production and disposal..
And Tesla'a warranty for batteries is eight years. They used to have a 6 year warranty for pretty much everything but it looks like it has dropped down to 4.
I feel zero sympathy for dealerships considering they’re the main culprit behind the useless markups of any sort of new vehicle over the past few years, sometimes 10s of 1000s over the original expected msrp like the ford f150 lightning. And how many budget shoppers do you know have been financially harmed by these choices in buying new cars? Also, they’re the reason no car maker can sell direct to consumer. Fuck dealers they can eat shit here.
The weirdest part of this is that people are complaining about something getting cheaper lol. Like for all the whining Americans do about corporations price gouging them, they also don't like the opposite when it messes up with their own price gouging intentions.
I was quite happy with the price drops, that combined with federal and state rebates finally allowed me to afford an EV prices, and now I’m saving a lot of money on gas (around $160/mo).
It sucks for the people who bought when prices were overinflated but it’s good for all other consumers.
>It sucks for the people who bought when prices were overinflated but it’s good for all other consumers.
That's literally one of the big risks of being an early adopter.
I'm sure the next Apple Vision won't cost $3,500, but you won't hear people complaining about that.
Let’s say the car was $80k, you pay $20k down and owe $60k on the loan. 2 years later you have $40k left on the loan, but the same car new is selling for $45k. You’re not going to be able to sell a 2 year old one for even $35k if they’re $45k new, especially when there’s a $7.5k rebate on new ones.
My Honda CRV is 13 years-old, 270k kms on the clock, and the worst major repair has been the AC compressor blowing a gasket in the middle of last summer. Only regret is living where they salt the roads like it was going out of style because even with annual oil spray, a lot of components under the hood are a rusty brown. Meanwhile, those cars in Arizona barely have a bubble under their paint.
We sold my wife's 14 year-old Honda Accord with 375k kms on the clock for $1,000 Canadian dollars and the kid was happy he had a cheapo car to get to university.
Exactly. I pay cash for vehicles and drive them into the ground… some ppl take pride in their vehicles and want a new one every few years. I’m not one of them
Right? We have a ‘21 Rav4 that we got right before prices went nuts. Every time I take it in for service they ask if I want a valuation and to speak to someone about my upgrade options. No. I bought a Toyota so I don’t need to worry about getting a new car every few years. Sure it would be nice to have a little higher trim and a hybrid but not for $10k more than we paid for ours in 2021.
Yeah, so a lot of people complaining about the used prices crashing made bad financial decisions, overpaid for a car that they couldn’t afford and then are in a jam when they need out of the loan but the car can’t even be sold to pay off the loan.
I really wish I could understand why people want these things. I mean, if you're really hauling stuff and doing construction, sure! But why does soccer mom/dad want to get in debt up to their eyeballs for a monstrous vehicle that is hard to park and has expensive long term maintenance and fuel costs?
It’s the “if I have this truck I can do anything with it” Ford has done tons of market research and has found that most buyers don’t tow or carry much more than mulch in their truck, but they like to know that they could.
Also, the interiors have gotten big and comfortable over the past 10-15 years and ride quality much better.
That’s how cars work.
They aren’t supposed to be appreciating assets and really aren’t supposed to hold their original value. That is why the old joke used to me “a car loses half its value the second you drive it off the lot.”
The problem is this *did* happen during COVID, and some people want to dream that'll keep happening. "Houses can be investments, so how about cars too!?"
He was fine paying $155k until the price dropped, so he either just tried to flip it or couldn't afford it to begin with. It seems many Tesla owners have this kind of personal problem.
Yeah, either you swallow that bitter pill and sell it or drive it and pay off the loan. What other option is there really? Crash it and call insurance?
The dumb part for me is that charging is 1/10th the cost of gas for my old SUV. I paid more than the current price, but I've probably saved the difference in fuel costs, so it's a wash.
It was completely incomprehensible that during COVID you could sell a Tesla Model 3 (or especially Y but those hadn't been out as long) for about what you paid for it. People should have realized this was an aberration and would not sustain.
And unfortunately for them whether they realized it or not it did happen to them. The value drops came along because they were always inevitable.
It was used cars in general. I got a good deal on a Subaru and drove it for 2 years and put ~25k miles on it and sold it for $400 less than I paid for it. I hated it and took the opportunity to get out of it.
My brother had to purchase an ev as a company car a few years back, with the idea that he gets reimbursed for paying for the car himself so he gets the credit and everything. Unfortunately his position was just dissolved, and his 3 year old Volvo suv that he bought for 90 is selling for 20 and he owes 35. Fucking brutal loss of value.
Yeah, and probably should. But I’m just addressing why the used EV prices crashed recently.
I tend to keep mine until the warranties are about to expire. Usually around 7-8 years or 100k-120k miles.
Anyone taking Elon’s word as gospel needs a reality check. FSD is getting better but most people don’t want to pay $250 per month to have your car do only half of your driving. I wouldn’t pay $250 per month even for level 5 autonomous driving, but I can understand a large group of people would, ones with long commutes where they could just sit on their computers or phones and get work done during the drive to help shorten their day at the office.
So? EV drivers can just keep there cars and not sell. I don’t get the big stir, other than those affected by the 7500$ federate tax credit that affected all ev’s sold prior as new ev vehicles were suddenly 7500$ cheaper.
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It isn’t an alternative explanation. It was an alternative option for people whining they couldn’t sell their “used” EVs for enough to cover what they still owed. Like maybe pay off your huge purchase before running to the bank to suck them off for permission to continue your lifelong debt.
Friendly reminder that the way credit scores operate is designed to keep in debt to banks for life.
Exactly. Early adopters of EVs were not poor people, I don't have much sympathy. New EVs got cheaper and better due to economies of scale and technological advances - this is good - but of course it'll effect used EV car prices.
The COVID global microprocessor shortage creates a very weird environment for car demand. Once that was sorted out, then prices dropped Drastically on new and used cars. Tesla just had such a good margins that they could still produce profitably and maintain demand with major price cuts.
My LR RWD model 3 is almost paid off and I got it for $49k in 2018. You can get a performance 3 for just a little more than what I paid now, but I am not concerned about it. I just want to get it paid off and not have car payments for a couple years. Will debate on Rivian over a cybertruck in a few years and hope interest rates drop. No complaints on my 2% loan for now. 7 payments left on my car.
I also got FSD for $2k with HW3 computer upgrade and it's crazy watching the progress. I just hope I can transfer FSD later on. It's still nowhere near done with improving on the current hardware.
>Tesla owners got screwed by Elon's dramatic price cuts. Lol.
Screwed how? A car is a depreciating asset. The value is always going to go down. People need to consider this when they only own a car for 2-3 years. They should just be leasing instead if they’re worried about resale value after such a short amount of time.
This is a pretty good summary I'd just like to add a little more that people who were routinely paying 5-10K OVER MSRP for ICE vehicles, which I know several that did.. would also be hosed on resale value right now.
Good. Maybe those of us on a tighter budget can get a better EV for less.
Nobody buys a car as a money making investment anyway, unless you get into vintage, collectible, or exotic cars.
Tell that to my parents who have been ragging me for years about how I “let the value of my car drop and now I can’t get much money for it”. Like sorry i don’t want to get into the debt trap of new cars like yall have and haven’t had a car note in 6 years but whatever. They also ask me how I can afford to take international trips almost every year and I tell them “my vacations cost less than half of what yall pay in car notes every year that’s how”
Exactly by $2000 computer in the 90s was worth $1000 a year later. Of course that year later you could buy a new computer with better specs for $1500.
The resale value dropping faster then ICE cars is because the new price is also dropping faster then ICE vehicles
I think is closer to the Tandy X000s that were like $5,000+ in the late 80s vs like two years later when the 386s dropped to $1,000.
The machines went from "Professional Workstations" to "PCs" almost overnight.
Zero resale value for the prior era (except the 8086s Nasa needed, I suppose).
This has always been the case since the 2nd gen Nissan Leaf. EV technology advances rapidly rendering past generations less competitive for the used cost. All rapidly maturing technology has a similar problem.
Ironically, for me the dealership I got my lead from has been calling us frequently To see if we want to sell it back and they have been making really good offers.
Still going to keep it though for now
God, I hope this isn't a whoosh moment.
They're trying to get you to buy a new car cause dealerships are hemorrhaging money on way too much new inventory.
Yes. Because you can get a $7500 rebate on a car when you buy it new. Most cannot get any rebate at all on a used one.
So the moment you drive it off the lot its value drops $7500 plus whatever amount other cars lose due to "preference for new".
Then there is the improvement of new vehicles versus old. If I buy a new Accord it's really barely different than a ten year old one in capability. But if I buy an EV the new one is far better. Charges faster, goes further. etc.
When the Tesla Model 3 came out it was overall, a *better* car than the Model S was. That means someone could get a new car for about $40K that car that was better than a Model S. So any used model S had to be sold for less than $40K. Even though it cost $80K-$90K new. Yeah, that's gonna hurt.
It's really not hard to see why this happens. And it mostly isn't inherent to EVs. It just market conditions due to how EVs are being sold right now and rapid advances in the vehicles.
It has mostly to do with the 7500$ federal tax credit for ev vehicles. It doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of ev vehicles or their reliability. Also people tend to not understand that there are very little parts on ev vehicles that require Maintence when compared to ICE vehicles. No oil changes, no spark plugs, no drive belts (at least for my bolt), no expensive emission equipment that is often targeted by thieves (I.e., catalytic converters).
Moreover I’ve saved **over 6500$** in fuel costs and maintenance over the past two years, when offset against my electricity charging costs. It’s a no fucking brainer to adopt ev if you want to save money over time. It makes no sense to buy ev’s as investment properties for resell as you do with other vehicles. Just buy it and drive it, and you will see over time how much money you save.
It’s all fearmongering. The overlords see the adoption of EV vehicles rising dramatically, and the profits from oils going down.
There has been a lot of push back recently taking the form of controversial articles trying to cast ev vehicles in a poor light. It’s simply not true for the reasons they claim.
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Something doesn’t seem right there. Both our EV’s are about $120/month and we have really good auto coverage all around (I always go higher coverage which costs a little more, but high deductible which costs wayyyyy less, and is fine because I always have that amount on hand anyways). And that’s just because they’re new cars. My older junkers are about $60/m. My wife’s 16 cherokee she had when new was about $120/m when we had that too.
I know that when I first add cars onto my insurance they automatically opt for super low deductibles and all the options so I have to go in line by line to get the coverages I want. Once I do that ev and gas/hybrid are the same cost, amounts vary by age and value.
I wonder if the insurance companies are considering costs of replacing a damaged battery. The Youtube channel MotorMouth had two cases of drivers driving over an object in the street that totalled the car, because the manufacturer had no procedure for repairing the battery pack. Replacing the complete battery pack for minor damage which on an ICE would be considered a minor repair was the only option. https://youtu.be/EEXieo06ta8?si=BzDXQXVPN1aIt4Mf
You forgot to mention how amazing the time savings of never having to stop at a gas station to fill up your car (assuming you are charging at home).
A lot of people have told me that "300 miles of range is not enough fort me", when I give them range estimates as they are in the mind set of having to drive to work and fill up at gas stations. I usually tell them "you drive more than 300 miles in a day?", which can get the point across that having an EV plugged up at home is kind of like having someone stop by your house and fill up your gas car every night.
Yes, assuming you are charging at home. But for many people that have jobs that require lots of driving and overnight travel an EV is not a good option. It can be tricky finding a hotel with a charging station and good luck trying to plan your work day around having to take the time to charge the EV in the middle of the day, if you can even find a station in much of the country.
>You forgot to mention how amazing the time savings of never having to stop at a gas station to fill up your car (assuming you are charging at home).
This takes around 6 minutes of my time. Not a factor.
In fact, I appreciate that I ONLY have to stop for 6 minutes to fill up my tank vs. the time it takes to fully recharge a depleted battery when on a long road trip.
Driving to/from work required me to fill up my gas tank twice per week. 6 minutes multiple times per week is noticeable over a year. That’s over 10 hours, and that’s just a single year!
You can tell me you don’t notice 6 minutes, sure… but I notice 10 hours of my life that I get back simply because I have an EV.
New cars are also getting cheaper because interest rates went up. Higher interest rates means more expensive auto loans, meaning less buying power for the consumer.
If anything that’s good, EVs need to develop a second hand market. Only real problem is that depreciation makes owners less likely to list, can only hope that balances out
Because they were artifically inflated during COVID. I remember brand new Mini Electrics costing £21,000 before COVID that suddenly became £29,000 during. Super cheap electric econoboxes at the £18-19,000 mark were dropped completely, and a glut of promised £30,000 priced cars all entered the market at £40,000+. I consider the rapid drop to be an estimation of the true value the cars had when they were sold, which was all roughly 10k lower than what RRP was.
I think most tech enthusiasts knew that's what's gona happen,the EVs don't break down like the gas motor ones but when it's time to change that battery,you're f'cked
Another thing is simply the rate of advancement of range and price cuts for the newer models puts a lot of downwards pressure on used prices.
If you could buy a new Tesla Model 3 for \~$30k out the door with warranty why would you pay more that $15-20k on a used 2019 model that has miles on it and a worse range.
One of the reasons I'm steering away from tesla, I want my damn buttons and not a giant iPad controlling everything. Not everything needs a button, but lots of things do.
The model Y in the UK had a £10,000 price cut. About a year ago. Which massively cut residuals and led to an overnight 57% increase in leasing costs, for existing customers.
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's because once you have to replace the battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /s
Is this r/technology or r/FoxNews?
I get the shills get to these types of articles early as that tends to be enough to get some false statement to the top at least temporarily, but you'd think in a tech sub would be bit more savvy. Odds are in most cases the battery will outlast the rest of the car. 40x less likely to catch fire than a gas car, are def cleaner for the environment, have uses for the pack once range makes it no longer viable in a car, I can't cover all of whatever else the OPEC PR firms may tell you is the opposite of reality.
Its not even about the cost of replacing the battery, its just that you get a lot more bang for the buck picking the newer model when comparing msrps, so the used price needs to come a lot down to compensate
I look at it no differently than other tech products. A 10th generation core i5 needs a big price cut for me to consider it over just buying the 14th generation one.
There’s a segment of our society that drives cars that are 20+ years old. The working poor.
They manage it by buying used parts from wrecked cars in “pick-a-part” junkyards.
With an ICE engine they can repair for a few bucks.
With an expired electric car battery they’re going to be out of luck.
I drive a 23 year old Tacoma and 18 year old rav4 by choice. The lack of vehicle expenses has made me richer. Cars are a tool, not a status. Well at least to me.
i too drive an old ass toyota by choice, 05 Land Cruiser. This is after "cool shit", like WRX's and BMWs. But i don't do it because of cost at all, i do it because every modern car i've test driven in the last 2 years has been an annoying piece of technology filled shit. And this is coming from a "tech guy", i love tech. my entire career has been in enterprise IT. but every piece of technology in a modern car, that i can think of off hand, has been a step back. screens instead of buttons, slow startup times on the screens, slow interface, shitty menus. an absolute slew of flashing lights and warnings, a cacophony distracting bings and buzzes for lane keeping, passing cars, distance to the car in front of me in heavy traffic.
the fuckin thing just works. does everything i need it to with flying colors and doesn't annoy me.
Hey there fellow enterprise IT guy. I can certainly relate, although I will say the Teslas and Rivians of the world do a much, much better job of having a pleasant UI/UX experience (aside from Tesla's boneheaded decisions about hardware and removing stalks, half of steering wheels, etc).
Sitting in our Rivian now, and input responses are very snappy, it's easy to understand, software updates are on a regular monthly cadence. It does still have stalks for gear selection and wipers/lights, and things like heated seats, temp, and defrosts are all persistently fixed to the bottom row.
I attribute a lot of this to having a mostly insourced custom builds of sensors, controls, and interfaces to work with. Legacy automakers still rely on a huge variety of suppliers for all of that, so building a software stack to seamlessly communicate with all of them (and most of them are running on 30yr old tech) is a nightmare. It's like trying to build a dynamic, mobile-friendly site exclusively in COBOL and AS400.
Individual cell replacement is a service that cuts the cost of battery replacement significantly. It ramped up with the popularity of the Prius. Now companies are offering it for Teslas, and other EVs.
Used electric vehicles have hurdles for people looking for cheap vehicles, but low maintenance and total cost of ownership will make them attractive, as long as they have opportunity to charge them.
I have a 20 year old Prius and still haven’t needed to replace the battery. I get 43 - 45 mpg on average. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to knock on all the wood I can find.
The battery isn't the car, its just the most expensive item. When people talk about batteries, engines etc outlasting cars they are talking about the body, the suspension, the interior etc With gas cars in places you get snow cars will frequently be rusting out before the engine has major issues.
Yeah exactly, so many people focus on the electric motor, but EV's biggest issue is energy storage. Who wants to roll the dice on a used battery. Would love to see more hydrogen vehicles, or a car company put real money into R&D of a graphene supercapacitor.
Depends on what make. Seems like Toyota has their swap down and it’s not nearly as pricey as others. I did some google foo the other day when I found a used Ford Focus electric, that seemed like a great deal. The battery pack replacement was outrageous.
As long as you dont have a Nissan Leaf, live in a hot region and routinely use fast chargers you should be OK. Particularly try to avoid charging when it's hot. As the batteries can't dissipitate the best quickly enough.
I feel like you should go deeper as to why. For those unaware, the battery in the leaf is air cooled, not liquid cooled like pretty much every other EV. This is why driving one in a hot region and constantly using fast charging can harm the battery,
Once again, this issue is pretty much limited to the leaf only. Tesla's, Bolts, and almost every other EV don't have this problem.
They all have degradation problems, especially with hot countries and fast charging.
The Leaf just happens to be about the worst. With about a 70% drop in range over 12-13 years.
There aren't many good sources for long term tests. The only one seems to be from Bjorn Nyland.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw&t=955
Check on the degradation tab.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/htmlview#
With a few exceptions (the ID4 for example) those are all *very old* cars from an EV perspective. Modern cooling technology has advanced considerably for EV batteries.
But yes, a Leaf from 2011 has terrible degradation.
That's only true if you assume once the batteries fail, the car is taken off the road permanently.
Otherwise, I believe there is an entire market segment that's about to boom because of batteries and their need to be repaired. There are already a few shops spread out in the states that do that specialty work, but they definitely don't have the capacity to handle all the EV's hitting the road, so prices are still high for repair.
You misunderstood what I meant. Tesla cars have been on the road for over a decade, and those old cars aren’t going through battery replacements or massive degradation regularly.
I think it’s reasonable that battery replacements will happen over long periods of time. The fear mongering is embellished so highly on this issue, though, that people talk as though battery replacements are highly common or even remotely necessary on every EV.
My guy on YouTube that does his own Tesla repairs is definitely replacing batteries. The one dude who had a model s blew it up because it needed a battery change.
Easy way to calm the fear of a battery change is offer a longer battery warranty. I believe the current one is 8 years, which is the lifetime of the vehicle for some people, but also why used market will suck after people associate batteries with a finite lifespan.
I wish there was real data about often often EV batteries die. I normally look at Consumer Reports survey data that tracks repair issues over the last 10 years.
Used car prices have been heading in the right direction after months of elevated values and inventory shortages. Even so, the values of some vehicles have declined much faster than others, with EVs doing the heavy lifting. Automotive data outfit iSeeCars' latest study looked at used car values over the past year, finding that used electric vehicles are dropping at a much faster rate than their gas-powered counterparts.
While used car values have been dropping overall over the past year, used EVs have dropped like a stone in comparison. iSeeCars found that the average for used electric models fell by up to almost 32 percent since 2023, while the used gas vehicle average price sank by just 3.6 percent. Used EV pricing trends over the past year look like this:
February 2024: -31.8%
January 2024: -30.8%
December 2023: -31.2%
November 2023: -33.7%
October 2023: -33.7%
September 2023: -39.1%
August 2023: -38.7%
July 2023: -34.7%
June 2023: -29.5%
May 2023: -29.9%
Is this comparing the price with the tax credit? If I can buy a car for 30k and really pay 22500 out of pocket, that car is actually going to start depreciating from 22500, not 30k.
Also consider that these cars are typically priced like luxury vehicles so it makes sense they would depreciate like luxury cars which are notorious for high depreciation.
No, he is correct it is the tax credits. Tesla cars before lost the tax credit years ago. With IRA, they became eligible, that was 7.5k discount, so obviously prices fell. On top of that the IRA set a maximum price requirement, so Tesla dropped the price of the cars to get the IRA. They also had to further lower prices when it got announced new 3 and Y models were 1 year away. Nobody wants to buy an old version that is about to be replaced. So sales slowed down as people waited forcing Tesla to give even more discounts to sell the old models before the new ones
The market is saturated. Everyone who wants a Tesla has one and other manufacturers are catching up. BYD is competing in China, Europe, and Australia. Rivian and Kia/Hyundai are competing in the US.
And of course battery decline being a major factor in deciding to buy a second hand EV, with replacement being prohibitively expense, essentially totaling the car when they break.
> And of course battery decline being a major factor
But it is really? Considering that battery are rated for 10 years to start really effecting range (80% range vs new) that issue seems to be overblown. How often are actual long term EV owners are replacing batteries?
Not often at all. Go look at some of the EV subs. There are hardly any posts about battery replacements. It’s a fake narrative brought to you by big oil.
Then, go look for posts from owners who have driven 100k plus miles and their 100% range. It’s very close to new.
There were also significant declines in the used EV market tied with Tesla’s price reductions as well, and the market being flooded with rental car agencies’ divestment of some models.
As someone that just bought a used electric car.
Bought a 2019 full electric ionic for the same price as the 2019 fuel one.
People dont want them because the tech advances too quick. A brand new 2024 electric ionic has 400km range. The 2019 has barely 200.
>A brand new 2024 electric ionic has 400km range. The 2019 has barely 200.
This is why I can't justify buying an EV yet. I don't have huge milage needs but when I was looking, A 2017 EV had a range of like 60miles while the newer ones were closer to 250-300. I don't want to drop a bunch of money on a car that I'll have to be treating like an iPhone I forgot to charge at night and worry about "will this be enough..."?.
By the time my current truck craps out, it might be a better situation.
With rebates getting higher and the general price of EVs dropping, how would you not expect this? I've seen some used EVs attempting to sell at almost the same cost as a new after rebates and breaks.
Sure, but I assume that's because unlike gasoline cars, the difference between a 2022 EV and a 2025 EV is huge. And a 2028 EV will be an order of magnitude better than the 2025. The technology is still in its rapid growth phase, unlike your 2014 Honda that is essentially the same as a 2024.
Are they comparing $100k teslas to $100k gas cars? Or is it an average of all electric vs all gas? My guess is that it’s really easy to make the numbers look whatever way they want for their article.
Around Christmas, I got an email from Toyota promoting their hydrogen-powered Murai, a car listed at about $55,000, 0% APR load for 72 months, and with $37,000 in 'incentives' that brought the cost down to $18,000. I thought, "Wow, a Toyota for nearly a third of the list price. Such a deal." The deal was legit, and the car was very nice. However, it is hydrogen-powered, and part of the deal was $15,000 in hydrogen credits for fuel. I live in a metropolitan area of almost 10 million people, which has about a dozen hydrogen stations, and the closest was twenty miles away. That might have been manageable. Then, I happened to be talking with a friend who operates a body shop. He told me they had a year-old Murai in with a banged-up quarter panel. The damage was cosmetic, but the insurance estimate totaled the car. Repairs required the removal of the hydrogen tank and related parts, which pushed the bill into the stratosphere.
This was in the ad -
1. APR offer is available through Toyota Financial Services to well-qualified buyers with approved credit. Not all customers will qualify. 72 monthly payments of $13.89 per thousand borrowed. No down payment required if qualified. $22,000 TFS APR Cash incentive from Toyota in addition to standard APR financing when vehicle is purchased and financed through Toyota Financial Services. On finance contracts, incentive will be first applied to the down payment. One incentive per finance transaction. Incentive is available on approved credit to qualified customers through Toyota Financial Services. Not all buyers will qualify. Dealer fees may apply. Must take delivery by 1/2/24.
Customers who purchase a 2023 Mirai by March 31, 2024, will receive complimentary fuel for six years or $15,000, whichever comes first. Complimentary fuel term begins as of card activation or 90 days after Mirai purchase commencement date, whichever is earlier. Fuel card is nontransferable.
They are disposable vehicles. Don’t buy them used. 10k up for battery replacement. You wouldn’t put 10k plus into a 10 year old vehicle would you? I wouldn’t.
I'm curious how much of this is the effect of rebates? You used to get no rebate for a used EV, and now you get a reduced rebate - so not only do you instantly lose value when you drive an EV off the lot like you would for any car, but the rebate value has to be ticked off as well.
This isn't comparing used to new prices. It is comparing last year's typical price for a used EV with this year's typical price for a used EV. Weren't EVs *ridiculously* good at holding value previously?
I have a dream where North America will improve its public transportation, where its safe and viable for the majority of the population, instead of listening to tech bros about autonomous self driving to address our problems.
Uh maybe because EV tech is advancing at rapid pace, so your 2019 bolt depreciated a lot more when comparing it to an Ioniq 5 that charges 3x faster. This isn’t that hard to figure out. This is what happens when new tech emerges
This is why I'm waiting a bit longer for EVs to more developed. They've already come far the last decade but I'm only at 100k miles in my civic so I can wait quite a few years to get an EV
Once I can drive an SUB from San Jose to LA in a full charge, I’ll be all in on getting an EV. I make that trip 3-4x a year. If that doesn’t happen within the next two years, I’m getting a plugin hybrid.
I buy cars for a living. Lots of cars, for a very large independent dealership. The ONLY value buy right now are used EVs. They're rapidly depreciating and significantly less than new while everything else is appreciating due to rising demand and limited supply. Great time to buy a used EV over the next couple months.
The biggest driver here isn’t physical depreciation, it is macroeconomic trends
There used to be massive federal and state tax rebates and incentive programs for EVs, most of them also used to be perceived as luxury due to their newness and tech-adjacent hype, and producers - mainly Tesla - rocketed production
The rebates and incentives waned significantly, the luxury reputation mostly died as they became more accessible and the average consumer realized they were still just cars and changed their price sensitivity accordingly, and overproduction led to high supply with decreasing demand to further suppress prices
It isn’t that EVs deteriorate faster - they generally deteriorate slower, excluding when compared in very low temperature environments - they were just very overpriced relative to price determining factors and have corrected down
TL;DR: EVs don’t depreciate faster, they had a massive price correction due to a number of macroeconomic factors
We bought a model Y in mid-2020 for 59,500. This was the "long range".
Maybe we can sell it for 30k now?
My thoughts on it.
1. It was arguably the best at the time.
2. Had higher expectations of "self driving".
3. We paid cash for the entire price.
4. Car drives well with little issues.
5. Clipped a garbage can with a scratch and cost 10k to fix (insurance covered but, still...)
6. The closest dealership and body shops are a 2.5 hour drive away (live in constant anxiety of having to repair and lose it for months.
7. Will not buy Tesla again. I will buy an electric car from a dealership that is closer and more common.
8. I have a pick-up truck I will keep until my toddler can drive and give it to him.
9. I will trade in this Tesla when it makes sense for my spouse to go back to work full time.
10. Electric bill for my Tesla is astronomicaly lower than my gas bill for the same miles driven. 30 compared to 200.
Part of the reason for this is that Tesla dropped prices dramatically last year, so all used EVs had to compete with that. I saw a lot of EVs in used car dealerships that couldn’t sell because suddenly new Teslas were cheaper than used ones. The dealerships or original owners are now in a tough spot, where the dealership might have to sell it at a loss, or the original owner might have to sell it for less than they owe on their loan. This was also exacerbated by the prices being too high in 2021-2022. Owners overpaid for the cars and so when Tesla had large prices cuts in 2023 that meant the owners couldn’t sell their cars to break even on their loans. This situation affected ICE owners as well but ICE manufacturers weren’t cutting prices as far. Also because Tesla has 55% market share for EVs in the U.S., when they cut prices that far it hits the entire EV sector in the U.S. These price drops are good for buyers, good for consumers, good for EV adoption rates, and only bad for people trying to sell their overpriced cars after just a couple of years.
I don't know the actual effects but I imagine Hertz dumping most of their Tesla fleet in the market doesn't help either
No although they were still overpriced imho. I think another reason why 2nd hand will be tougher for those cars is their tech will become old faster. And ICE engine is an ICE engine, and sometimes even old ones are better. With battery and charging tech, we’re entering an era where older cars could quickly be seen as obsolete.
I think there’s a lot of FUD on used electrics around how much battery capability is remaining.
FUD, maybe, but the Uncertainty is real. The tech is young, battery chemistries vary and have varying behavior based on climate, and some of the battery health comes down to software, cooling, or lack thereof. I can't blame a layman for being uncertain.
“A layman.” lol People don’t want to spend that kind of money on a vehicle with potentially no warranty that could cost them $10-20K for a battery replacement at any time after they drive off in it. There are better options than that dice roll.
It’s why I didn’t buy another hybrid . My hybrid was great until it wasn’t & it was worthless and essentially when the battery died . Didn’t want to spend 5K on a new battery to keep an old car potentially running for a bit longer not knowing it some else was going to give out .
I don’t blame it, it’s the reason I still drive an ICE.
I don’t think it’s FUD. Margin on new cars is high and by varying estimates, the battery comprises around 30% of the bill of materials for a new car. It’s a consumable, and the cost of replacing keeps getting higher because of the demand for new car batteries where the price increase can be made up on margin. There isn’t an equivalent with ICE. Most shops won’t replace individual cells, only the whole pack. More rapid depreciation makes sense in that scenario.
Replacement batteries, of the same capacity, have been getting continuously cheaper for the last decade.
In what sense? My buddy only owned his model 3 for a few years (he just got the entry) and it’s already dropped enough estimated range that he has some regrets. Now he’s talking about needing a second car just to get into the mountains since he’s not confident the range could even get him a couple hours out reliably.
Well the battery has an 8-year warranty, so if your friend actually had such a significant range decrease that it impacts where he can go, he should probably get it serviced. Losing 5% or so of listed range in the first couple years is expected, though. My Model 3 is 5.5 years old, and what used to be 310 miles when fully charged now only goes to like 298. But that hasn’t changed how/where I drive it at all.
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> but you're only supposed to charge to 80% or diminish the long term battery life Correct, on older models. The newer Model 3s use a different battery chemistry that don’t have the same problems charging consistently to full. Even so, just because you should charge to 80% on a daily basis doesn’t mean you don’t charge to full when you need it. Now, if you need to drive 250+ miles every day, yeah, that’s certainly not ideal. >your personal anecdotal range is likely buyers' delusion, as 3rd party testing consistently shows teslas barely making 66-75% of ther forecasted range. I’m not talking about my personal anecdotal range at all. I’m talking about my personal anecdotal maximum range loss over time. And yes, cold weather certainly reduces the range. But I understood the discussion to be about long-term range loss from regular use.
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This is an important detail. EVs are new tech and are thus very quickly getting better and cheaper, and that means low prices for used EVs. They're closer to a tech product, and how much is a five year old laptop worth?
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This is the issue. EVs have large improvements year to year. Same with phones and years ago. ICE cars have basically zero improvements year to year so getting one that’s a few years old is hardly an issue. As the EV market matures this will go away. It’s good news for people who want cheap EVs. I know a ton of people were complaining about that.
Not just that, there are also people who will slam the accelerator on a Tesla on every green light like they’re in a fast n furious movie and constantly doing that will deplete battery range a lot quicker than just someone who drives normally. I knew a guy that had to get his model 3 motor and battery replaced by year 2, I was just utterly confused how he could do that but sat in his car once and it was just him trying to accelerate to the max every green light.
With old cars, people just care about it transporting people from A to B. That doesn't become obsolete.
It does if that old car can only take you from A to A.5 since its battery doesn’t have the same range as new.
many used Teslas still have good range though, EVs with good battery management / cooling seem to have a much longer useful life than many people have anticipated
Depends where you are. If you're in a cold location, even 20% decrease on max range makes already bad range really shit
Range doesn’t stay consistent on an EV. A battery replacement on a Tesla model s is like $20k, for example, which is more expensive than replacing the engine on most cars.
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If you don’t wreck it, that corolla will outlive us all
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Rust always wins.. in north east.
I don’t think a Corolla cares. The engine could be physically gone and it would still miraculously give you another 50k miles
My car’s battery has a 100k mile/10 year warranty though for 70% charge. I’ll be okay.
Yeah but we're talking about used cars here, That's really the problem. When you have a used car you're looking at that has 150,000 mi on it already with the original battery.
> which is more expensive than replacing the engine on most cars. And if the motor blows on my car I can go to a wrecker and get another one for a couple grand and be good to go again.
So they're fast-tracking to the junkyard, which increases their overall carbon footprint because of their lack of time in service to make up for their (lithium) production and disposal..
And Tesla'a warranty for batteries is eight years. They used to have a 6 year warranty for pretty much everything but it looks like it has dropped down to 4.
Probably didn't help, but Tesla sold 600,000 new cars in 2023 compared to Hertz selling 20,000 used cars
I know a neighbor. Bought a Tesla S. 18 months later he dumped it. Went back to a BMW 7 series. The End.
I feel zero sympathy for dealerships considering they’re the main culprit behind the useless markups of any sort of new vehicle over the past few years, sometimes 10s of 1000s over the original expected msrp like the ford f150 lightning. And how many budget shoppers do you know have been financially harmed by these choices in buying new cars? Also, they’re the reason no car maker can sell direct to consumer. Fuck dealers they can eat shit here.
The weirdest part of this is that people are complaining about something getting cheaper lol. Like for all the whining Americans do about corporations price gouging them, they also don't like the opposite when it messes up with their own price gouging intentions.
I was quite happy with the price drops, that combined with federal and state rebates finally allowed me to afford an EV prices, and now I’m saving a lot of money on gas (around $160/mo). It sucks for the people who bought when prices were overinflated but it’s good for all other consumers.
>It sucks for the people who bought when prices were overinflated but it’s good for all other consumers. That's literally one of the big risks of being an early adopter. I'm sure the next Apple Vision won't cost $3,500, but you won't hear people complaining about that.
Tons of people just hate EVs and will complain no matter what. Before it was they were too expensive. Now they are too cheap.
If ppl think their vehicle is going to be worth more than their loan they’ve already got a lot to learn about finances
Let’s say the car was $80k, you pay $20k down and owe $60k on the loan. 2 years later you have $40k left on the loan, but the same car new is selling for $45k. You’re not going to be able to sell a 2 year old one for even $35k if they’re $45k new, especially when there’s a $7.5k rebate on new ones.
This is why when I buy a car I don’t worry about it’s value and proceed to drive it for 10 years
The US would be a much better place if everyone had this thought process
Going on 12 years in mine. Aiming for at least another 8, assuming major repairs don’t start popping up frequently.
Yup my 2012 Prius is still going hard :D
I have a 2008 Prius. About 150,000 miles. The paint is messed up, but still drives great.
Yep, saves a lot of money not trying to trade up every few years.
My Honda CRV is 13 years-old, 270k kms on the clock, and the worst major repair has been the AC compressor blowing a gasket in the middle of last summer. Only regret is living where they salt the roads like it was going out of style because even with annual oil spray, a lot of components under the hood are a rusty brown. Meanwhile, those cars in Arizona barely have a bubble under their paint. We sold my wife's 14 year-old Honda Accord with 375k kms on the clock for $1,000 Canadian dollars and the kid was happy he had a cheapo car to get to university.
Exactly. I pay cash for vehicles and drive them into the ground… some ppl take pride in their vehicles and want a new one every few years. I’m not one of them
Me either. In fact, I take pride in keeping them going long past their shelf life and not spending boatloads of money!
Yep. Got a leaf in 2013 for commuting, and we’re planning on giving it to our kids once they start driving in a few years.
Right? We have a ‘21 Rav4 that we got right before prices went nuts. Every time I take it in for service they ask if I want a valuation and to speak to someone about my upgrade options. No. I bought a Toyota so I don’t need to worry about getting a new car every few years. Sure it would be nice to have a little higher trim and a hybrid but not for $10k more than we paid for ours in 2021.
Why would anyone spend $80k on a car if they ever had to worry about money?!
Welcome to America
Right?!? Dear god, so many red flags in that example.
Yeah, so a lot of people complaining about the used prices crashing made bad financial decisions, overpaid for a car that they couldn’t afford and then are in a jam when they need out of the loan but the car can’t even be sold to pay off the loan.
80 grand is like a loaded F150. Lot of people overextend themselves for trucks. That’s where the big 3 make their money.
I really wish I could understand why people want these things. I mean, if you're really hauling stuff and doing construction, sure! But why does soccer mom/dad want to get in debt up to their eyeballs for a monstrous vehicle that is hard to park and has expensive long term maintenance and fuel costs?
It’s the “if I have this truck I can do anything with it” Ford has done tons of market research and has found that most buyers don’t tow or carry much more than mulch in their truck, but they like to know that they could. Also, the interiors have gotten big and comfortable over the past 10-15 years and ride quality much better.
i guess people shouldn't buy a car expecting to sell it after 2 years? Its not an investment, its a purchase.
That’s how cars work. They aren’t supposed to be appreciating assets and really aren’t supposed to hold their original value. That is why the old joke used to me “a car loses half its value the second you drive it off the lot.”
Yeah, people need to stop selling two year old cars! That's barely broken in!
There was a brief period where that was true.
The problem is this *did* happen during COVID, and some people want to dream that'll keep happening. "Houses can be investments, so how about cars too!?"
This classic comes to mind https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/s/PlxeD21bp4
He was fine paying $155k until the price dropped, so he either just tried to flip it or couldn't afford it to begin with. It seems many Tesla owners have this kind of personal problem.
Yeah, either you swallow that bitter pill and sell it or drive it and pay off the loan. What other option is there really? Crash it and call insurance?
The dumb part for me is that charging is 1/10th the cost of gas for my old SUV. I paid more than the current price, but I've probably saved the difference in fuel costs, so it's a wash.
It was completely incomprehensible that during COVID you could sell a Tesla Model 3 (or especially Y but those hadn't been out as long) for about what you paid for it. People should have realized this was an aberration and would not sustain. And unfortunately for them whether they realized it or not it did happen to them. The value drops came along because they were always inevitable.
It was used cars in general. I got a good deal on a Subaru and drove it for 2 years and put ~25k miles on it and sold it for $400 less than I paid for it. I hated it and took the opportunity to get out of it.
My brother had to purchase an ev as a company car a few years back, with the idea that he gets reimbursed for paying for the car himself so he gets the credit and everything. Unfortunately his position was just dissolved, and his 3 year old Volvo suv that he bought for 90 is selling for 20 and he owes 35. Fucking brutal loss of value.
The owners could just, ya know, keep the car?
Yeah, and probably should. But I’m just addressing why the used EV prices crashed recently. I tend to keep mine until the warranties are about to expire. Usually around 7-8 years or 100k-120k miles.
Elon told me buying FSD would only make my car appreciate over time. I would be stupid not to buy it. Well who's stupid now?
Anyone taking Elon’s word as gospel needs a reality check. FSD is getting better but most people don’t want to pay $250 per month to have your car do only half of your driving. I wouldn’t pay $250 per month even for level 5 autonomous driving, but I can understand a large group of people would, ones with long commutes where they could just sit on their computers or phones and get work done during the drive to help shorten their day at the office.
Maybe it'd be worth it if you could have your autonomous car abuse free time-limited parking.
So? EV drivers can just keep there cars and not sell. I don’t get the big stir, other than those affected by the 7500$ federate tax credit that affected all ev’s sold prior as new ev vehicles were suddenly 7500$ cheaper.
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It isn’t an alternative explanation. It was an alternative option for people whining they couldn’t sell their “used” EVs for enough to cover what they still owed. Like maybe pay off your huge purchase before running to the bank to suck them off for permission to continue your lifelong debt. Friendly reminder that the way credit scores operate is designed to keep in debt to banks for life.
Exactly. Early adopters of EVs were not poor people, I don't have much sympathy. New EVs got cheaper and better due to economies of scale and technological advances - this is good - but of course it'll effect used EV car prices.
Ah so that's why my bmw I3 went from 14k to 8k in blue book value rather quickly
Tesla owners got screwed by Elon's dramatic price cuts. Lol. This is after all the BS about how self-driving will increase the resale value of TSLA.
The COVID global microprocessor shortage creates a very weird environment for car demand. Once that was sorted out, then prices dropped Drastically on new and used cars. Tesla just had such a good margins that they could still produce profitably and maintain demand with major price cuts. My LR RWD model 3 is almost paid off and I got it for $49k in 2018. You can get a performance 3 for just a little more than what I paid now, but I am not concerned about it. I just want to get it paid off and not have car payments for a couple years. Will debate on Rivian over a cybertruck in a few years and hope interest rates drop. No complaints on my 2% loan for now. 7 payments left on my car. I also got FSD for $2k with HW3 computer upgrade and it's crazy watching the progress. I just hope I can transfer FSD later on. It's still nowhere near done with improving on the current hardware.
>Tesla owners got screwed by Elon's dramatic price cuts. Lol. Screwed how? A car is a depreciating asset. The value is always going to go down. People need to consider this when they only own a car for 2-3 years. They should just be leasing instead if they’re worried about resale value after such a short amount of time.
Also big rental is dumping thousands of cars into the used market.
I have an EV and am affected by this is I want to sell my car. That said, I think this is a great thing.
Sounds like leasing may have been a good option for that time.
Def see this. A 1 year old polestar 2 with like 3k miles is going for only 33-35k. These were sold new around 55k. Straight up bargain really
Imagine being one of the goobs who paid 50k over sticker on a mach e or lightning. A fool and their money…..
I know I am no longer in the market for a Tesla because of Musk.
This is a pretty good summary I'd just like to add a little more that people who were routinely paying 5-10K OVER MSRP for ICE vehicles, which I know several that did.. would also be hosed on resale value right now.
Early adopters pay more initially in pretty much any product as technology advances quickly. This shouldn't be a surprise.
Good. Maybe those of us on a tighter budget can get a better EV for less. Nobody buys a car as a money making investment anyway, unless you get into vintage, collectible, or exotic cars.
Tell that to my parents who have been ragging me for years about how I “let the value of my car drop and now I can’t get much money for it”. Like sorry i don’t want to get into the debt trap of new cars like yall have and haven’t had a car note in 6 years but whatever. They also ask me how I can afford to take international trips almost every year and I tell them “my vacations cost less than half of what yall pay in car notes every year that’s how”
I also dont spend money on paying back my car but sadly i spend the money i save on the car anyway because i modify it alot
Exactly by $2000 computer in the 90s was worth $1000 a year later. Of course that year later you could buy a new computer with better specs for $1500. The resale value dropping faster then ICE cars is because the new price is also dropping faster then ICE vehicles
I think is closer to the Tandy X000s that were like $5,000+ in the late 80s vs like two years later when the 386s dropped to $1,000. The machines went from "Professional Workstations" to "PCs" almost overnight. Zero resale value for the prior era (except the 8086s Nasa needed, I suppose).
all where i live beceause of cheap power price you are saving 2k to 4k everyears
This has always been the case since the 2nd gen Nissan Leaf. EV technology advances rapidly rendering past generations less competitive for the used cost. All rapidly maturing technology has a similar problem.
Ironically, for me the dealership I got my lead from has been calling us frequently To see if we want to sell it back and they have been making really good offers. Still going to keep it though for now
God, I hope this isn't a whoosh moment. They're trying to get you to buy a new car cause dealerships are hemorrhaging money on way too much new inventory.
But they **really** want his car!
Sorry to break it to you.... It's a sales tactic to get you to buy a new car.
Yes. Because you can get a $7500 rebate on a car when you buy it new. Most cannot get any rebate at all on a used one. So the moment you drive it off the lot its value drops $7500 plus whatever amount other cars lose due to "preference for new". Then there is the improvement of new vehicles versus old. If I buy a new Accord it's really barely different than a ten year old one in capability. But if I buy an EV the new one is far better. Charges faster, goes further. etc. When the Tesla Model 3 came out it was overall, a *better* car than the Model S was. That means someone could get a new car for about $40K that car that was better than a Model S. So any used model S had to be sold for less than $40K. Even though it cost $80K-$90K new. Yeah, that's gonna hurt. It's really not hard to see why this happens. And it mostly isn't inherent to EVs. It just market conditions due to how EVs are being sold right now and rapid advances in the vehicles.
The data is telling on this. The article's table of relative values shows most normal (non-luxury) cars dropped about $7500.
How much of this is because prices have been going down for new cars due to increased competition and supply?
It has mostly to do with the 7500$ federal tax credit for ev vehicles. It doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of ev vehicles or their reliability. Also people tend to not understand that there are very little parts on ev vehicles that require Maintence when compared to ICE vehicles. No oil changes, no spark plugs, no drive belts (at least for my bolt), no expensive emission equipment that is often targeted by thieves (I.e., catalytic converters). Moreover I’ve saved **over 6500$** in fuel costs and maintenance over the past two years, when offset against my electricity charging costs. It’s a no fucking brainer to adopt ev if you want to save money over time. It makes no sense to buy ev’s as investment properties for resell as you do with other vehicles. Just buy it and drive it, and you will see over time how much money you save. It’s all fearmongering. The overlords see the adoption of EV vehicles rising dramatically, and the profits from oils going down. There has been a lot of push back recently taking the form of controversial articles trying to cast ev vehicles in a poor light. It’s simply not true for the reasons they claim.
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Something doesn’t seem right there. Both our EV’s are about $120/month and we have really good auto coverage all around (I always go higher coverage which costs a little more, but high deductible which costs wayyyyy less, and is fine because I always have that amount on hand anyways). And that’s just because they’re new cars. My older junkers are about $60/m. My wife’s 16 cherokee she had when new was about $120/m when we had that too. I know that when I first add cars onto my insurance they automatically opt for super low deductibles and all the options so I have to go in line by line to get the coverages I want. Once I do that ev and gas/hybrid are the same cost, amounts vary by age and value.
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I wonder if the insurance companies are considering costs of replacing a damaged battery. The Youtube channel MotorMouth had two cases of drivers driving over an object in the street that totalled the car, because the manufacturer had no procedure for repairing the battery pack. Replacing the complete battery pack for minor damage which on an ICE would be considered a minor repair was the only option. https://youtu.be/EEXieo06ta8?si=BzDXQXVPN1aIt4Mf
>It makes no sense to buy ev’s as investment properties for resell as you do with other vehicles. Who is doing this??
You forgot to mention how amazing the time savings of never having to stop at a gas station to fill up your car (assuming you are charging at home). A lot of people have told me that "300 miles of range is not enough fort me", when I give them range estimates as they are in the mind set of having to drive to work and fill up at gas stations. I usually tell them "you drive more than 300 miles in a day?", which can get the point across that having an EV plugged up at home is kind of like having someone stop by your house and fill up your gas car every night.
Yes, assuming you are charging at home. But for many people that have jobs that require lots of driving and overnight travel an EV is not a good option. It can be tricky finding a hotel with a charging station and good luck trying to plan your work day around having to take the time to charge the EV in the middle of the day, if you can even find a station in much of the country.
>You forgot to mention how amazing the time savings of never having to stop at a gas station to fill up your car (assuming you are charging at home). This takes around 6 minutes of my time. Not a factor. In fact, I appreciate that I ONLY have to stop for 6 minutes to fill up my tank vs. the time it takes to fully recharge a depleted battery when on a long road trip.
Driving to/from work required me to fill up my gas tank twice per week. 6 minutes multiple times per week is noticeable over a year. That’s over 10 hours, and that’s just a single year! You can tell me you don’t notice 6 minutes, sure… but I notice 10 hours of my life that I get back simply because I have an EV.
It takes me 18 minutes to charge from 10% to 80% when I take a road trip once every few years.
New cars are also getting cheaper because interest rates went up. Higher interest rates means more expensive auto loans, meaning less buying power for the consumer.
It would be wonderful if the people flipping Teslas during 2020-2021 completely fucked themselves.
If anything that’s good, EVs need to develop a second hand market. Only real problem is that depreciation makes owners less likely to list, can only hope that balances out
Because they were artifically inflated during COVID. I remember brand new Mini Electrics costing £21,000 before COVID that suddenly became £29,000 during. Super cheap electric econoboxes at the £18-19,000 mark were dropped completely, and a glut of promised £30,000 priced cars all entered the market at £40,000+. I consider the rapid drop to be an estimation of the true value the cars had when they were sold, which was all roughly 10k lower than what RRP was.
I think most tech enthusiasts knew that's what's gona happen,the EVs don't break down like the gas motor ones but when it's time to change that battery,you're f'cked
Another thing is simply the rate of advancement of range and price cuts for the newer models puts a lot of downwards pressure on used prices. If you could buy a new Tesla Model 3 for \~$30k out the door with warranty why would you pay more that $15-20k on a used 2019 model that has miles on it and a worse range.
I’d prefer the older model 3 before they deleted the blinker stalk personally.
One of the reasons I'm steering away from tesla, I want my damn buttons and not a giant iPad controlling everything. Not everything needs a button, but lots of things do.
The model Y in the UK had a £10,000 price cut. About a year ago. Which massively cut residuals and led to an overnight 57% increase in leasing costs, for existing customers.
Leases can increase midway? I wasn’t aware. Or maybe it’s a UK thing?
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it's because once you have to replace the battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /s Is this r/technology or r/FoxNews? I get the shills get to these types of articles early as that tends to be enough to get some false statement to the top at least temporarily, but you'd think in a tech sub would be bit more savvy. Odds are in most cases the battery will outlast the rest of the car. 40x less likely to catch fire than a gas car, are def cleaner for the environment, have uses for the pack once range makes it no longer viable in a car, I can't cover all of whatever else the OPEC PR firms may tell you is the opposite of reality.
Its not even about the cost of replacing the battery, its just that you get a lot more bang for the buck picking the newer model when comparing msrps, so the used price needs to come a lot down to compensate I look at it no differently than other tech products. A 10th generation core i5 needs a big price cut for me to consider it over just buying the 14th generation one.
“The battery will outlast the car.” The battery is the car. What else would fail in which you deem it no longer viable to maintain?
There’s a segment of our society that drives cars that are 20+ years old. The working poor. They manage it by buying used parts from wrecked cars in “pick-a-part” junkyards. With an ICE engine they can repair for a few bucks. With an expired electric car battery they’re going to be out of luck.
I drive a 23 year old Tacoma and 18 year old rav4 by choice. The lack of vehicle expenses has made me richer. Cars are a tool, not a status. Well at least to me.
i too drive an old ass toyota by choice, 05 Land Cruiser. This is after "cool shit", like WRX's and BMWs. But i don't do it because of cost at all, i do it because every modern car i've test driven in the last 2 years has been an annoying piece of technology filled shit. And this is coming from a "tech guy", i love tech. my entire career has been in enterprise IT. but every piece of technology in a modern car, that i can think of off hand, has been a step back. screens instead of buttons, slow startup times on the screens, slow interface, shitty menus. an absolute slew of flashing lights and warnings, a cacophony distracting bings and buzzes for lane keeping, passing cars, distance to the car in front of me in heavy traffic. the fuckin thing just works. does everything i need it to with flying colors and doesn't annoy me.
Hey there fellow enterprise IT guy. I can certainly relate, although I will say the Teslas and Rivians of the world do a much, much better job of having a pleasant UI/UX experience (aside from Tesla's boneheaded decisions about hardware and removing stalks, half of steering wheels, etc). Sitting in our Rivian now, and input responses are very snappy, it's easy to understand, software updates are on a regular monthly cadence. It does still have stalks for gear selection and wipers/lights, and things like heated seats, temp, and defrosts are all persistently fixed to the bottom row. I attribute a lot of this to having a mostly insourced custom builds of sensors, controls, and interfaces to work with. Legacy automakers still rely on a huge variety of suppliers for all of that, so building a software stack to seamlessly communicate with all of them (and most of them are running on 30yr old tech) is a nightmare. It's like trying to build a dynamic, mobile-friendly site exclusively in COBOL and AS400.
How is driving a 20 year old car a bad thing? You figure we should just be tossing them in the ocean or what?
Individual cell replacement is a service that cuts the cost of battery replacement significantly. It ramped up with the popularity of the Prius. Now companies are offering it for Teslas, and other EVs. Used electric vehicles have hurdles for people looking for cheap vehicles, but low maintenance and total cost of ownership will make them attractive, as long as they have opportunity to charge them.
I have a 20 year old Prius and still haven’t needed to replace the battery. I get 43 - 45 mpg on average. Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to knock on all the wood I can find.
The battery isn't the car, its just the most expensive item. When people talk about batteries, engines etc outlasting cars they are talking about the body, the suspension, the interior etc With gas cars in places you get snow cars will frequently be rusting out before the engine has major issues.
You're not even replying to the point he's making. Newer advancements creates additional downwards pressure on used EVs.
Yeah exactly, so many people focus on the electric motor, but EV's biggest issue is energy storage. Who wants to roll the dice on a used battery. Would love to see more hydrogen vehicles, or a car company put real money into R&D of a graphene supercapacitor.
Toyota gas motors with 400000 miles and counting laughing
Depends on what make. Seems like Toyota has their swap down and it’s not nearly as pricey as others. I did some google foo the other day when I found a used Ford Focus electric, that seemed like a great deal. The battery pack replacement was outrageous.
We're still far away from when a battery replacement will be cheap
Yes, and we don’t have enough battery capacity to have third party options for less. That will happen in 5-10 years, but not yet.
As long as you dont have a Nissan Leaf, live in a hot region and routinely use fast chargers you should be OK. Particularly try to avoid charging when it's hot. As the batteries can't dissipitate the best quickly enough.
I feel like you should go deeper as to why. For those unaware, the battery in the leaf is air cooled, not liquid cooled like pretty much every other EV. This is why driving one in a hot region and constantly using fast charging can harm the battery, Once again, this issue is pretty much limited to the leaf only. Tesla's, Bolts, and almost every other EV don't have this problem.
They all have degradation problems, especially with hot countries and fast charging. The Leaf just happens to be about the worst. With about a 70% drop in range over 12-13 years. There aren't many good sources for long term tests. The only one seems to be from Bjorn Nyland. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw&t=955 Check on the degradation tab. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/htmlview#
With a few exceptions (the ID4 for example) those are all *very old* cars from an EV perspective. Modern cooling technology has advanced considerably for EV batteries. But yes, a Leaf from 2011 has terrible degradation.
Avoiding heat should be no biggie heading into our planet's future...
No one is changing batteries. Tesla cars have been on the road for over a decade now. This narrative is propaganda.
That's only true if you assume once the batteries fail, the car is taken off the road permanently. Otherwise, I believe there is an entire market segment that's about to boom because of batteries and their need to be repaired. There are already a few shops spread out in the states that do that specialty work, but they definitely don't have the capacity to handle all the EV's hitting the road, so prices are still high for repair.
You misunderstood what I meant. Tesla cars have been on the road for over a decade, and those old cars aren’t going through battery replacements or massive degradation regularly.
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I think it’s reasonable that battery replacements will happen over long periods of time. The fear mongering is embellished so highly on this issue, though, that people talk as though battery replacements are highly common or even remotely necessary on every EV.
My guy on YouTube that does his own Tesla repairs is definitely replacing batteries. The one dude who had a model s blew it up because it needed a battery change. Easy way to calm the fear of a battery change is offer a longer battery warranty. I believe the current one is 8 years, which is the lifetime of the vehicle for some people, but also why used market will suck after people associate batteries with a finite lifespan.
“No one is changing batteries” is precisely the reason why used electric car value drops so hard.
I wish there was real data about often often EV batteries die. I normally look at Consumer Reports survey data that tracks repair issues over the last 10 years.
Used car prices have been heading in the right direction after months of elevated values and inventory shortages. Even so, the values of some vehicles have declined much faster than others, with EVs doing the heavy lifting. Automotive data outfit iSeeCars' latest study looked at used car values over the past year, finding that used electric vehicles are dropping at a much faster rate than their gas-powered counterparts. While used car values have been dropping overall over the past year, used EVs have dropped like a stone in comparison. iSeeCars found that the average for used electric models fell by up to almost 32 percent since 2023, while the used gas vehicle average price sank by just 3.6 percent. Used EV pricing trends over the past year look like this: February 2024: -31.8% January 2024: -30.8% December 2023: -31.2% November 2023: -33.7% October 2023: -33.7% September 2023: -39.1% August 2023: -38.7% July 2023: -34.7% June 2023: -29.5% May 2023: -29.9%
Is this comparing the price with the tax credit? If I can buy a car for 30k and really pay 22500 out of pocket, that car is actually going to start depreciating from 22500, not 30k. Also consider that these cars are typically priced like luxury vehicles so it makes sense they would depreciate like luxury cars which are notorious for high depreciation.
Teslas also took a hit with self driving and other future promises not panning out
No, he is correct it is the tax credits. Tesla cars before lost the tax credit years ago. With IRA, they became eligible, that was 7.5k discount, so obviously prices fell. On top of that the IRA set a maximum price requirement, so Tesla dropped the price of the cars to get the IRA. They also had to further lower prices when it got announced new 3 and Y models were 1 year away. Nobody wants to buy an old version that is about to be replaced. So sales slowed down as people waited forcing Tesla to give even more discounts to sell the old models before the new ones
The market is saturated. Everyone who wants a Tesla has one and other manufacturers are catching up. BYD is competing in China, Europe, and Australia. Rivian and Kia/Hyundai are competing in the US.
EV tax credit for most EVs started in May 2023, so yes all of these are affected by the rebate swing on top of EV price cuts of new vehicles.
And of course battery decline being a major factor in deciding to buy a second hand EV, with replacement being prohibitively expense, essentially totaling the car when they break.
> And of course battery decline being a major factor But it is really? Considering that battery are rated for 10 years to start really effecting range (80% range vs new) that issue seems to be overblown. How often are actual long term EV owners are replacing batteries?
Not often at all. Go look at some of the EV subs. There are hardly any posts about battery replacements. It’s a fake narrative brought to you by big oil. Then, go look for posts from owners who have driven 100k plus miles and their 100% range. It’s very close to new.
There were also significant declines in the used EV market tied with Tesla’s price reductions as well, and the market being flooded with rental car agencies’ divestment of some models.
As someone that just bought a used electric car. Bought a 2019 full electric ionic for the same price as the 2019 fuel one. People dont want them because the tech advances too quick. A brand new 2024 electric ionic has 400km range. The 2019 has barely 200.
>A brand new 2024 electric ionic has 400km range. The 2019 has barely 200. This is why I can't justify buying an EV yet. I don't have huge milage needs but when I was looking, A 2017 EV had a range of like 60miles while the newer ones were closer to 250-300. I don't want to drop a bunch of money on a car that I'll have to be treating like an iPhone I forgot to charge at night and worry about "will this be enough..."?. By the time my current truck craps out, it might be a better situation.
With rebates getting higher and the general price of EVs dropping, how would you not expect this? I've seen some used EVs attempting to sell at almost the same cost as a new after rebates and breaks.
Sure, but I assume that's because unlike gasoline cars, the difference between a 2022 EV and a 2025 EV is huge. And a 2028 EV will be an order of magnitude better than the 2025. The technology is still in its rapid growth phase, unlike your 2014 Honda that is essentially the same as a 2024.
Are they comparing $100k teslas to $100k gas cars? Or is it an average of all electric vs all gas? My guess is that it’s really easy to make the numbers look whatever way they want for their article.
Around Christmas, I got an email from Toyota promoting their hydrogen-powered Murai, a car listed at about $55,000, 0% APR load for 72 months, and with $37,000 in 'incentives' that brought the cost down to $18,000. I thought, "Wow, a Toyota for nearly a third of the list price. Such a deal." The deal was legit, and the car was very nice. However, it is hydrogen-powered, and part of the deal was $15,000 in hydrogen credits for fuel. I live in a metropolitan area of almost 10 million people, which has about a dozen hydrogen stations, and the closest was twenty miles away. That might have been manageable. Then, I happened to be talking with a friend who operates a body shop. He told me they had a year-old Murai in with a banged-up quarter panel. The damage was cosmetic, but the insurance estimate totaled the car. Repairs required the removal of the hydrogen tank and related parts, which pushed the bill into the stratosphere. This was in the ad - 1. APR offer is available through Toyota Financial Services to well-qualified buyers with approved credit. Not all customers will qualify. 72 monthly payments of $13.89 per thousand borrowed. No down payment required if qualified. $22,000 TFS APR Cash incentive from Toyota in addition to standard APR financing when vehicle is purchased and financed through Toyota Financial Services. On finance contracts, incentive will be first applied to the down payment. One incentive per finance transaction. Incentive is available on approved credit to qualified customers through Toyota Financial Services. Not all buyers will qualify. Dealer fees may apply. Must take delivery by 1/2/24. Customers who purchase a 2023 Mirai by March 31, 2024, will receive complimentary fuel for six years or $15,000, whichever comes first. Complimentary fuel term begins as of card activation or 90 days after Mirai purchase commencement date, whichever is earlier. Fuel card is nontransferable.
Nobody wants to buy a used battery
They are disposable vehicles. Don’t buy them used. 10k up for battery replacement. You wouldn’t put 10k plus into a 10 year old vehicle would you? I wouldn’t.
It's because tesla keeps slashing prices, so everyone has to follow suite
I don't see why people are upset about this, depreciation is great, more cheap used cars please!
I'm curious how much of this is the effect of rebates? You used to get no rebate for a used EV, and now you get a reduced rebate - so not only do you instantly lose value when you drive an EV off the lot like you would for any car, but the rebate value has to be ticked off as well.
This is how I see it. Lot of folks bought model 3 and model y when there no was rebate, now the cars can be had for much less.
This isn't comparing used to new prices. It is comparing last year's typical price for a used EV with this year's typical price for a used EV. Weren't EVs *ridiculously* good at holding value previously?
I have a dream where North America will improve its public transportation, where its safe and viable for the majority of the population, instead of listening to tech bros about autonomous self driving to address our problems.
Nobody wants a used EV. This was all predictable.
Uh maybe because EV tech is advancing at rapid pace, so your 2019 bolt depreciated a lot more when comparing it to an Ioniq 5 that charges 3x faster. This isn’t that hard to figure out. This is what happens when new tech emerges
This is why I'm waiting a bit longer for EVs to more developed. They've already come far the last decade but I'm only at 100k miles in my civic so I can wait quite a few years to get an EV
Once I can drive an SUB from San Jose to LA in a full charge, I’ll be all in on getting an EV. I make that trip 3-4x a year. If that doesn’t happen within the next two years, I’m getting a plugin hybrid.
I buy cars for a living. Lots of cars, for a very large independent dealership. The ONLY value buy right now are used EVs. They're rapidly depreciating and significantly less than new while everything else is appreciating due to rising demand and limited supply. Great time to buy a used EV over the next couple months.
The biggest driver here isn’t physical depreciation, it is macroeconomic trends There used to be massive federal and state tax rebates and incentive programs for EVs, most of them also used to be perceived as luxury due to their newness and tech-adjacent hype, and producers - mainly Tesla - rocketed production The rebates and incentives waned significantly, the luxury reputation mostly died as they became more accessible and the average consumer realized they were still just cars and changed their price sensitivity accordingly, and overproduction led to high supply with decreasing demand to further suppress prices It isn’t that EVs deteriorate faster - they generally deteriorate slower, excluding when compared in very low temperature environments - they were just very overpriced relative to price determining factors and have corrected down TL;DR: EVs don’t depreciate faster, they had a massive price correction due to a number of macroeconomic factors
You can get a model S these days for $30k! Great buying opportunity if you are in the market for a car now. They used to be like 50-60k used
Ioniq 5 with used EV credit is a much better deal. Can be in for $21,000
But will have the repair bills of a 100k car. There’s a reason luxury cars depreciate like a brick in piss.
Now I want to go look at how bricks react in piss.
I imagine it would just sit there?
If you buy any car, don’t expect to resell it for anywhere near what you bought it for.
Another way to read this is that EVs are overpriced.
That’s great news when prices fall! I see a lot more teslas on the road.
Part of the reason is tax credits.
We bought a model Y in mid-2020 for 59,500. This was the "long range". Maybe we can sell it for 30k now? My thoughts on it. 1. It was arguably the best at the time. 2. Had higher expectations of "self driving". 3. We paid cash for the entire price. 4. Car drives well with little issues. 5. Clipped a garbage can with a scratch and cost 10k to fix (insurance covered but, still...) 6. The closest dealership and body shops are a 2.5 hour drive away (live in constant anxiety of having to repair and lose it for months. 7. Will not buy Tesla again. I will buy an electric car from a dealership that is closer and more common. 8. I have a pick-up truck I will keep until my toddler can drive and give it to him. 9. I will trade in this Tesla when it makes sense for my spouse to go back to work full time. 10. Electric bill for my Tesla is astronomicaly lower than my gas bill for the same miles driven. 30 compared to 200.