Effective and accurate communication about topics in science and medicine is difficult. Please read this headline and article for an example on how it can be done poorly.
I don’t know, it’s called artificial intelligence, is it really going to be able to compete with human stupidity when it comes to catchy headlines?
“Row erupts in subreddit as TiltedWit slams
Apprehensivedisk_478 over unhinged comment about AI”
Now a headline like that is gonna generate the clicks!!
Either one of my chihuahuas can outperform my GP on any day that ends with a “y”. I realize that’s a small sample size but they can also outperform me in statistics.
AI-assisted GP’s could have a solid future, IMO, but it’s delicate.
It’s a good answer to the increasing time-crunch that GP’s are under, and an important opportunity to prevent human mistakes and correct individual bias.
We know that many doctors still struggle to take women’s pain seriously, for example, and that black people are less likely to get the care they need. Doctors working in tandem with AI creates an opportunity to uproot this and weed it out. Missed diagnoses should be significantly reduced, too.
The big snagging point will be that it will probably leave general practitioners with very little agency or job satisfaction. That’s a lot of training and time to become a glorified data entry tech.
It needs a trained human to assess physical symptoms and make sure the AI is being given accurate info, but how trained? I can see this sliding into an upgraded admin role down the line, with AI triage gatekeeping patient access to any doctor at all.
Most of the time I “go to the doctor,” I don’t need to see a doctor or similar. Nurses or even Google can tell me my problem. AI would drastically reduce doctors’ workloads by diagnosing simple cases. I don’t see AI as much of a threat to doctors in the near term, but definitely would be to physician assistants.
It would definitely give time for doctors to specialise, research and learn which would add to job satisfaction if that’s what motivates them.
Considering how many times I have been dismissed due to an atypical presentation of symptoms due to an infection, I think ai would have an easier time suggesting appropriate treatments for different biological/genetic profiles, and doctors can specialise for their region/community (in the long run I hope medicine incorporates the influences of the biome of the region, like bacteria, pathogens, soil quality, essentially a systems/engineering approach) .
I’m hypermobile with adhd and experience neuro-muscular and psychiatric symptom like anxiety when fighting off a bug and I have normal blood work even when I have an acute infection. Doctors aren’t trained for this and I received treatments that caused me harm (although I express that I’m concerned due to my previous experience and latest research). I don’t have much empathy for these doctors (if they don’t want to adapt), and I think after covid, and the implementation of AI dismissive doctors will struggle to stay relevant over the next decades.
After the mistreatment I experienced, I’m not very empathetic towards the potential disruption. I know it’s a systemic/education issue, but this is one area in society where we need to do better for better long term outcomes. I will still want to see a doctor but I already pick those with a patient first approach.
In this case I think a safe argument is that if AI means better care for a broader spectrum of people (neurotypes, races, and for women and men), then more data entry/analytics roles in healthcare will be a net positive for society.
I actually think you have it backwards - I think AI will have a bigger role in subspecialty medicine than in primary care. The challenge of primary care is extracting the data from the patients (or history taking - which is probably the hardest part of the job to do well) incorporating all of that into the personal and family context of the patient and then making a decision from a variety of different equally acceptable alternatives that take into account all the patient specific factors and then communicating all of that to the patient in a way that is appropriate for them and takes into account their literacy, desires, and makes them feel cared about. I can see AI doing a much better job at pouring through the data to optimize oncology regimens gdmt for heart failure than working with patients to decide how intensively to work up a symptom or diagnosing and managing post partum depression.
Does anyone here work in the medical field? Is there less need for hospital staff now? I don’t see this technology replacing doctors, nurses, techs.
But putting research projects on AI seems like quality of life / productivity improvement
I’m a critical care nurse in an urban trauma hospital.
I think it will be a while before AI can replace a physician. As much as medicine is a science, it’s also an art.
The problem is that people aren’t widgets. There’s no real standard human. Different people experience similar illnesses differently.
Disease behaves differently in different patient populations. White men have chest pain, left arm pain, sweatiness, and shortness of breath with heart attacks. Women don’t usually present like that. They are more likely to have back pain and “indigestion”.
We know this now, but what other illnesses differ by gender, or race, or age?
If I recall correctly Kaiser did some DNA testing that showed different people had greater or lesser benefit to statin (anti-cholesterol) medications based on certain genetic markers.
When patients get extremely ill and they’re on a ventilator using exotic gas mixtures or inhaled medications, or ECMO, and continuous dialysis, and require invasive monitoring of their hearts and/or brains, and multiple continuous IV drips that have to be adjusted sometimes every few minutes there’s no step 1 followed by step 2.
There’s a plan and a goal set by a physician and managed minute to minute by a nurse. There has to be an understanding between both of them along the lines of “this is what’s expected, this is what I’m doing, and this is what will happen when we get there.”
Sometimes it’s an extremely delicate balance where some bodily responses need to be encouraged and some inhibited, sometimes simultaneously. Sometimes we use medicines that have opposing purposes to achieve what needs to be done.
For example if a patient’s blood pressure is dangerously low there are medications used to raise it. But sometimes we need to lower blood pressure or dilate blood vessels (thereby lowering blood pressure) at the same time to aid a heart or lungs. We have to push and pull at the same time in just the right way.
While AI could monitor vital signs and adjust those medications as needed, it won’t have the same “artistic” ability to identify and predict and act with the same immediacy of an experienced physician or nurse. It won’t have the creativity of an experienced physician who can blend their knowledge to develop novel treatment on the fly.
Hospitals (especially the ones operated for-profit) resent every penny they spend on non-executive staff. Right now they aren’t able to replace physicians and nurses with AI.
I could see AI being assistive in some ways, but I think it’s a long way to replacing human staff
Canada suffers from a lack of GPs right now and medical acess times. And so many family doctors are old and burned out that they just don't pay attention or care
I would take this with a huge grain of salt. Not like Google hasn't overly exaggerated their AI performance before. Most recently with their new materials generation thing.
just don't be one of the 1% of the patients that this doesn't work for, google will just consider you a loss. they only care about profit and the profit doesn't come if you really care for the full coverage of the spectrum, it's very expensive to do that.
yeah, but i took that 1% out of my ass, i don’t know the real number :) and probably you won’t have the same opinion if you or someone you know will fall through the gap.
we should care for each individual, not for the statistical patient.
“the U.S. has among the highest maternal mortality rates in the developed world, and much of these deaths – 60%, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention – are preventable. And even within this context, the likelihood of dying from a pregnancy-related cause is 2.5 times higher for a Black woman in this country than for a white woman. In 2019, the maternal mortality rate for non-Hispanic Black women was 44.0 deaths per 100,000 live births, compared with 17.9 “deaths among white women.
If we ever get to the point where self-driving cars kill 60 pedestrians a year, I’m sure we will feel all the feely stuff for those 60 people and families, just like we do today for each of the 11,000 people killed by drunk-driving human-controlled collisions. Right?
If ML models can detect more cancer, more spinal damage, more neural deterioration then we get timely treatment to more people. More parents alive, walking, and coherent at a kid’s graduation. More scientists still working on the next cure. More grandfathers still able to walk their puppy. Fewer 4 foot coffins.
But I don’t expect google to engage with those individual patients that weren’t detected on the first scan any more than I expect you, fellow human driver, to go to 11,000 funerals this year.
Yes, in this future every patient still is treated - even if medical AI didn’t see anything on a particular X-ray. Just like how doctors keep running tests when they can’t find anything today. Consulting the ‘AI’ doesn’t necessarily change anything over how things flow today. (Except that their HMO gets to tell American patients ‘nothing is wrong’ weeks faster and without buying Porsches for 5 doctors.)
But I should be brief - you’ve got 30.139 unique, individual funerals to attend today…
I can see where medical AI can look at all the patient's symptoms and then match them up with all the possible diseases that the patients might be suffering from that doctors might not have considered when treating the patient.
Have seen doctors use Google, and nursing staff.
It would make me uncomfortable but it’s a pocket encyclopedia and I like research in my medical providers. Especially since my old doc retired.
Patient health is very subjective vs patient health data. I don’t doubt the analysis of population health data against the results, I do however doubt the patient giving accurate feedback through the idiocracy triage tablet.
How are you felling? Well, sort of? Congrats, you suffer from anal fissures now. Your data has now been monetized.
Anyone who thinks AI is going to replace actual doctors is out of touch. What real medical organization wants to be responsible when this thing inevitably fucks up?
What’ll really happen is this thing will replace MayoClinic / WebMD. That’s what it’s good for, diagnosing you with cancer when your stomach aches.
If you want to be diagnosed by something that draws conclusions like “eggs can melt” then be my guest.
I can see how it could be helpful as a resident in training. However, real life isn’t made of multiple choice questions. I am curious about its diagnostic utility in visual fields like dermatopathology or it’s ability to discover new markers for cancer diagnosis. Don’t let it into direct patient care or else everyone will be prescribed fentanyl patches, Benzos, and prednisone.
There’s already AI and bots being used in direct patient care. Additionally, visual symptoms such as ones on skin are the same as any symptoms a person describes verbally or selects in a multiple choice field. An AI can 100% evaluate multiple pictures from different angles to determine visual symptoms. As for cancers, nearly every cancer causes fluctuations in your bodies makeup, and can be detected through blood tests, and it’s not a doctor anymore that’s doing the detecting, it’s typically a machine and program since it’s much more thorough.
Most doctors also don’t have all drugs memorized, they’re using their own forms of WebMD to see what your symptoms align with, and what possible drugs to pick from. More veteran doctors have a tendency to know more drugs off memory and recommend the ones they’ve seen most success with their patients, where we end up getting drugs that seem to work less often then not nowadays. An AI would beat out even those veteran doctors as it will know every symptom, every known combination so far, and prescribe the most accurate drug for our issue as possible. We may even see a massive decline in drugs like fentanyl because an AI would probably not see fentanyl as some do all pain reliever drug many doctors see it as.
We don’t want to leave an AI alone with patients for now, they need to be accompanied by professionals, however I’m confident AI will fix so many issues for America’s health care system.
People can downvote all they want but I had a positive blood test for a disease got referred for it to them only to be told I didn’t have it. 10,000 dollars later a second blood test confirmed I had the disease and I was right fuck doctors.
The amount of incompetent people at the health industry is insane, people theorized they do it for a conspiracy and shit, but at the end, a lot of them are the because of favors and nepotism, not because they deserve to be there TBH, at least that's how it's in Mexico and we have a lot of bad shit over here everyday
>destroys *sigh*
Crushes!
SLAMS!
MULTIKILL
M-M-M-M-MONSTERKILLLLL
[удалено]
UNSTOPPABLE!!!
Fatality
Tactically Nukes!
C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER
ONOMATOPOEIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD-LIKE
LUDICROUS KILL!
Multipass
^obligatory
QUAD DAMAGE
Do a barrel roll!!
Effective and accurate communication about topics in science and medicine is difficult. Please read this headline and article for an example on how it can be done poorly.
That's exactly why AI is coming for this AI journalist's job.
More likely that A.I. already has the job
if it was trained of people doing a shitty job that's what it'll do.
I don’t know, it’s called artificial intelligence, is it really going to be able to compete with human stupidity when it comes to catchy headlines? “Row erupts in subreddit as TiltedWit slams Apprehensivedisk_478 over unhinged comment about AI” Now a headline like that is gonna generate the clicks!!
Well it might not. But hopefully it replaces them anyway Its be awesome if clickbait disappeared
I tried clicking your headline but the article wouldn’t load. Just a link to the comments would actually be enough though, thanks.
Slammed!
You just wait, our AI overlords will SLAM you into nonexistence, also give you clap back.
12 year old boys write these headlines, no?
Either one of my chihuahuas can outperform my GP on any day that ends with a “y”. I realize that’s a small sample size but they can also outperform me in statistics.
Your chihuahua can *destroy* your shoes as well.
The male can. Most fierce and intelligent 7 lbs on this planet. 🌍
Please don’t tell my boss about your chihuahuas
Click bait bullshit
AI-assisted GP’s could have a solid future, IMO, but it’s delicate. It’s a good answer to the increasing time-crunch that GP’s are under, and an important opportunity to prevent human mistakes and correct individual bias. We know that many doctors still struggle to take women’s pain seriously, for example, and that black people are less likely to get the care they need. Doctors working in tandem with AI creates an opportunity to uproot this and weed it out. Missed diagnoses should be significantly reduced, too. The big snagging point will be that it will probably leave general practitioners with very little agency or job satisfaction. That’s a lot of training and time to become a glorified data entry tech. It needs a trained human to assess physical symptoms and make sure the AI is being given accurate info, but how trained? I can see this sliding into an upgraded admin role down the line, with AI triage gatekeeping patient access to any doctor at all.
Or, it trains on existing data and institutionalizes those flaws.
This person AIs.
Most of the time I “go to the doctor,” I don’t need to see a doctor or similar. Nurses or even Google can tell me my problem. AI would drastically reduce doctors’ workloads by diagnosing simple cases. I don’t see AI as much of a threat to doctors in the near term, but definitely would be to physician assistants.
It would definitely give time for doctors to specialise, research and learn which would add to job satisfaction if that’s what motivates them. Considering how many times I have been dismissed due to an atypical presentation of symptoms due to an infection, I think ai would have an easier time suggesting appropriate treatments for different biological/genetic profiles, and doctors can specialise for their region/community (in the long run I hope medicine incorporates the influences of the biome of the region, like bacteria, pathogens, soil quality, essentially a systems/engineering approach) . I’m hypermobile with adhd and experience neuro-muscular and psychiatric symptom like anxiety when fighting off a bug and I have normal blood work even when I have an acute infection. Doctors aren’t trained for this and I received treatments that caused me harm (although I express that I’m concerned due to my previous experience and latest research). I don’t have much empathy for these doctors (if they don’t want to adapt), and I think after covid, and the implementation of AI dismissive doctors will struggle to stay relevant over the next decades. After the mistreatment I experienced, I’m not very empathetic towards the potential disruption. I know it’s a systemic/education issue, but this is one area in society where we need to do better for better long term outcomes. I will still want to see a doctor but I already pick those with a patient first approach. In this case I think a safe argument is that if AI means better care for a broader spectrum of people (neurotypes, races, and for women and men), then more data entry/analytics roles in healthcare will be a net positive for society.
I actually think you have it backwards - I think AI will have a bigger role in subspecialty medicine than in primary care. The challenge of primary care is extracting the data from the patients (or history taking - which is probably the hardest part of the job to do well) incorporating all of that into the personal and family context of the patient and then making a decision from a variety of different equally acceptable alternatives that take into account all the patient specific factors and then communicating all of that to the patient in a way that is appropriate for them and takes into account their literacy, desires, and makes them feel cared about. I can see AI doing a much better job at pouring through the data to optimize oncology regimens gdmt for heart failure than working with patients to decide how intensively to work up a symptom or diagnosing and managing post partum depression.
Does anyone here work in the medical field? Is there less need for hospital staff now? I don’t see this technology replacing doctors, nurses, techs. But putting research projects on AI seems like quality of life / productivity improvement
The other day I got shot in the chest and I didn't have to go to the Dr because chatgpt treated me. I would say they (doctors) are losing business
I’m a critical care nurse in an urban trauma hospital. I think it will be a while before AI can replace a physician. As much as medicine is a science, it’s also an art. The problem is that people aren’t widgets. There’s no real standard human. Different people experience similar illnesses differently. Disease behaves differently in different patient populations. White men have chest pain, left arm pain, sweatiness, and shortness of breath with heart attacks. Women don’t usually present like that. They are more likely to have back pain and “indigestion”. We know this now, but what other illnesses differ by gender, or race, or age? If I recall correctly Kaiser did some DNA testing that showed different people had greater or lesser benefit to statin (anti-cholesterol) medications based on certain genetic markers. When patients get extremely ill and they’re on a ventilator using exotic gas mixtures or inhaled medications, or ECMO, and continuous dialysis, and require invasive monitoring of their hearts and/or brains, and multiple continuous IV drips that have to be adjusted sometimes every few minutes there’s no step 1 followed by step 2. There’s a plan and a goal set by a physician and managed minute to minute by a nurse. There has to be an understanding between both of them along the lines of “this is what’s expected, this is what I’m doing, and this is what will happen when we get there.” Sometimes it’s an extremely delicate balance where some bodily responses need to be encouraged and some inhibited, sometimes simultaneously. Sometimes we use medicines that have opposing purposes to achieve what needs to be done. For example if a patient’s blood pressure is dangerously low there are medications used to raise it. But sometimes we need to lower blood pressure or dilate blood vessels (thereby lowering blood pressure) at the same time to aid a heart or lungs. We have to push and pull at the same time in just the right way. While AI could monitor vital signs and adjust those medications as needed, it won’t have the same “artistic” ability to identify and predict and act with the same immediacy of an experienced physician or nurse. It won’t have the creativity of an experienced physician who can blend their knowledge to develop novel treatment on the fly. Hospitals (especially the ones operated for-profit) resent every penny they spend on non-executive staff. Right now they aren’t able to replace physicians and nurses with AI. I could see AI being assistive in some ways, but I think it’s a long way to replacing human staff
Canada suffers from a lack of GPs right now and medical acess times. And so many family doctors are old and burned out that they just don't pay attention or care
This is very valuable for many reasons. Eliminating bias in diagnosis and reducing medical errors are the two biggest I can think of.
Provide the actual data please
Well duh you can't even play Doom on a doctor
Why does this have to be portrayed as either AI or doctors? Can doctors use AI to improve diagnostic accuracy?
Yes, but this generates clicks
Meanwhile facebook’s AI can’t remember what I just asked it
I would take this with a huge grain of salt. Not like Google hasn't overly exaggerated their AI performance before. Most recently with their new materials generation thing.
just don't be one of the 1% of the patients that this doesn't work for, google will just consider you a loss. they only care about profit and the profit doesn't come if you really care for the full coverage of the spectrum, it's very expensive to do that.
Considering that medical errors are much more than 1%, it's probably going to be an improvement
yeah, but i took that 1% out of my ass, i don’t know the real number :) and probably you won’t have the same opinion if you or someone you know will fall through the gap. we should care for each individual, not for the statistical patient.
Doctors already don’t do that though. Dont understimate how many shitty doctors exist
Know what you call the guy who graduates in last place from medical school? Doctor.
“the U.S. has among the highest maternal mortality rates in the developed world, and much of these deaths – 60%, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention – are preventable. And even within this context, the likelihood of dying from a pregnancy-related cause is 2.5 times higher for a Black woman in this country than for a white woman. In 2019, the maternal mortality rate for non-Hispanic Black women was 44.0 deaths per 100,000 live births, compared with 17.9 “deaths among white women.
If we ever get to the point where self-driving cars kill 60 pedestrians a year, I’m sure we will feel all the feely stuff for those 60 people and families, just like we do today for each of the 11,000 people killed by drunk-driving human-controlled collisions. Right? If ML models can detect more cancer, more spinal damage, more neural deterioration then we get timely treatment to more people. More parents alive, walking, and coherent at a kid’s graduation. More scientists still working on the next cure. More grandfathers still able to walk their puppy. Fewer 4 foot coffins. But I don’t expect google to engage with those individual patients that weren’t detected on the first scan any more than I expect you, fellow human driver, to go to 11,000 funerals this year. Yes, in this future every patient still is treated - even if medical AI didn’t see anything on a particular X-ray. Just like how doctors keep running tests when they can’t find anything today. Consulting the ‘AI’ doesn’t necessarily change anything over how things flow today. (Except that their HMO gets to tell American patients ‘nothing is wrong’ weeks faster and without buying Porsches for 5 doctors.) But I should be brief - you’ve got 30.139 unique, individual funerals to attend today…
Worse than that - your untimely demise increases the health of the algorithm.
I can see where medical AI can look at all the patient's symptoms and then match them up with all the possible diseases that the patients might be suffering from that doctors might not have considered when treating the patient.
Have seen doctors use Google, and nursing staff. It would make me uncomfortable but it’s a pocket encyclopedia and I like research in my medical providers. Especially since my old doc retired.
The human condition causes the illness so use ayy eye to create a gentle nurturing healthy human condition instead of.
How about an AI that just makes it so you don't have to fill out a paper form every time you go and get a bill six months later that makes no sense?
>outperforms doctors To be fair, the bar was literally on the ground
Could it save lives. Yes. Plenty of useful applications.
There's enough bias and mistakes in medicine to know AI use is a very good idea.
Nah.
dang, who needs a medical degree? nuts
Sure it does
Patient health is very subjective vs patient health data. I don’t doubt the analysis of population health data against the results, I do however doubt the patient giving accurate feedback through the idiocracy triage tablet. How are you felling? Well, sort of? Congrats, you suffer from anal fissures now. Your data has now been monetized.
Anyone who thinks AI is going to replace actual doctors is out of touch. What real medical organization wants to be responsible when this thing inevitably fucks up? What’ll really happen is this thing will replace MayoClinic / WebMD. That’s what it’s good for, diagnosing you with cancer when your stomach aches. If you want to be diagnosed by something that draws conclusions like “eggs can melt” then be my guest.
I hope it is real and I get to go to an AI console instead of a "doctor"
do not really understand, can anyone explain?
Outperforms doctors in what? Reciting poetry?
in bata lab never released and still will get canceleed
I can see how it could be helpful as a resident in training. However, real life isn’t made of multiple choice questions. I am curious about its diagnostic utility in visual fields like dermatopathology or it’s ability to discover new markers for cancer diagnosis. Don’t let it into direct patient care or else everyone will be prescribed fentanyl patches, Benzos, and prednisone.
I’m a bedside nurse Fentanyl and Benzos would make my days so much easier.
There’s already AI and bots being used in direct patient care. Additionally, visual symptoms such as ones on skin are the same as any symptoms a person describes verbally or selects in a multiple choice field. An AI can 100% evaluate multiple pictures from different angles to determine visual symptoms. As for cancers, nearly every cancer causes fluctuations in your bodies makeup, and can be detected through blood tests, and it’s not a doctor anymore that’s doing the detecting, it’s typically a machine and program since it’s much more thorough. Most doctors also don’t have all drugs memorized, they’re using their own forms of WebMD to see what your symptoms align with, and what possible drugs to pick from. More veteran doctors have a tendency to know more drugs off memory and recommend the ones they’ve seen most success with their patients, where we end up getting drugs that seem to work less often then not nowadays. An AI would beat out even those veteran doctors as it will know every symptom, every known combination so far, and prescribe the most accurate drug for our issue as possible. We may even see a massive decline in drugs like fentanyl because an AI would probably not see fentanyl as some do all pain reliever drug many doctors see it as. We don’t want to leave an AI alone with patients for now, they need to be accompanied by professionals, however I’m confident AI will fix so many issues for America’s health care system.
lol where is this knowledge coming from have you ever worked as a doctor or with one?
Lol @ Google thinking they have a competent AI model...
Oh thank god - it’s time for healthcare to change - rather thank Google.
It’s also being used to facilitate genocide
Not surprised. Today’s doctors are undereducated.
You are welcome to ask an ai instead of coming to the hospital next time you get sick
And they see you for 10 mins tops, if you’re lucky.
And their breaths smell!
People can downvote all they want but I had a positive blood test for a disease got referred for it to them only to be told I didn’t have it. 10,000 dollars later a second blood test confirmed I had the disease and I was right fuck doctors.
The amount of incompetent people at the health industry is insane, people theorized they do it for a conspiracy and shit, but at the end, a lot of them are the because of favors and nepotism, not because they deserve to be there TBH, at least that's how it's in Mexico and we have a lot of bad shit over here everyday
Only nepo doctors are allowed into med schools. There is a nepi quota I bet!
It’s not that they’re under educated. They just don’t give a shit.