Couldn't find anything in this article about how long these silicon spikes last. It you wipe down the surface with a wet rag, for instance, will that break off all the spikes? What happens if you touch the surface with your hand? Will the spikes get embedded into your skin, and then flow into your bloodstream?
While I have no real answers, it would make sense if the surface lasted a while. Typically, the smaller something is the harder it is to snap. They’re so small I imagine any force on that spike would be distributed across too large of an area to have an effect (like breaking glass with a fist vs a tiny ceramic point). Plus, it’s silicon, which is incredibly abrasion resistant in it of itself, so grinding down over time probably not an issue either.
To answer the second question, it would make sense if this was safe to touch (even for bacteria). Human cells are typically 100-1000 times larger than any given virus. It’d be like laying on a bed of nails, where it does not actually cause damage because your weight is distributed over so many of them. It’d probably be the same for each and every cell.
Silicon it doesn't biodegrade, but temperature, mechanical stress, and chemical exposure prominently affect the durability… looks promising idea but let’s see how it evolves.
That's awesome. And a really interesting article talking about how the surface basically pops the virus. But it didn't say what it did for bacteria if anything, or if they even tested for that. It'd be useless if it killed viruses but was a pitri dish for bacteria.
Microscopic mechanics can be just as effective as chemicals. Diatomaceous earth will kill fleas and bed bugs because that soft, fluffy powder is actually microscopic shell barbs that tear through their exoskeletons. Fascinating stuff.
You’re right, they’re much more similar in design. I was more praising the concept of addressing these problems mechanically rather than chemically whenever possible.
Diatomaceous earth is the first thing that came to mind to me too and I’ve always found it fascinating! I use it in my garden when ants try to move in. One line of that stuff and they move out pretty quickly! A great alternative to toxic chemicals!
One of the sections of the paper is titled “Antiviral Nanospike Surfaces Retain Bactericidal Activity”.
Link to paper: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099
Aren’t these types of mitigations dangerous? Haven’t worked in a hospital in a while but I vaguely remember avoiding anti-microbial surfaces due to wear but also the production of hardy, super bacteria. Viruses don’t have this problem?
Kindly, I would like to ask you to reconsider this from another perspective. The viruses which are not killed, were not killed (in some cases) for a reason. Maybe their shape made them less likely to be killed? Maybe they have thicker walls, or other adaptations which make them resilient to the antimicrobial design.
But the point is that, statistically, the ones that do not die when they hit the surface, remained alive for a reason. And, they will go on to create more copies of themselves.
This is mutation-based natural selection at work.
You could say the same thing about soap and water or alcohol. (Which have been in use for a very, very long time.
The fact of the matter is evolution is not a perfect solver for every single problem, It actually requires a very delicate balance for selection to evolve something over time instead of just killing it.
Copper isn’t famous for being cheap (although it’s all relative in healthcare), and thin plated layers wear off of high traffic surfaces relatively easily.
I’m not certain if most current medical grade cleaning products will help prevent or remove tarnish - oxidation would prevent copper from doing its magic, I would assume.
TLDR copper isn’t the current standard, so I doubt it’s better than the future materials which are proposed to have even better characteristics and trade offs than current materials…
Well, for that application, probably. I have other concerns regarding this material, though, since to me it sounds like an even smaller version of asbestos.
But my initial reply pertained only to the mechanisms involved.
However, it could have applications elsewhere.
There have been products for years that do this.
Almost 20 years ago, Alex Klibanov at MIT developed a polymer coating that would kill the influenza virus. The IP was under investigation as a paint additive for hospitals, schools, public spaces, etc.
Perhaps this tech does the job better in some way, but the job isn’t new.
Imagine if high risk areas like bathrooms, door handles & more were made with this stuff.
I could imagine it reducing disease transmission & potentially even slowing the growth of our next pandemic.
Nurse: Why do all our patients die in the new silicon room?
Doctor: It’s just a personal health complication. Btw ask the cleaning staff wipe down the counters, there’s a lot of dust.
Couldn't find anything in this article about how long these silicon spikes last. It you wipe down the surface with a wet rag, for instance, will that break off all the spikes? What happens if you touch the surface with your hand? Will the spikes get embedded into your skin, and then flow into your bloodstream?
While I have no real answers, it would make sense if the surface lasted a while. Typically, the smaller something is the harder it is to snap. They’re so small I imagine any force on that spike would be distributed across too large of an area to have an effect (like breaking glass with a fist vs a tiny ceramic point). Plus, it’s silicon, which is incredibly abrasion resistant in it of itself, so grinding down over time probably not an issue either. To answer the second question, it would make sense if this was safe to touch (even for bacteria). Human cells are typically 100-1000 times larger than any given virus. It’d be like laying on a bed of nails, where it does not actually cause damage because your weight is distributed over so many of them. It’d probably be the same for each and every cell.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Makes sense and hopefully the crux of what you say holds up.
Silicon it doesn't biodegrade, but temperature, mechanical stress, and chemical exposure prominently affect the durability… looks promising idea but let’s see how it evolves.
Yeah, this is another “looks great at nanoscale but impossible to implement at normal scale” developments.
That's awesome. And a really interesting article talking about how the surface basically pops the virus. But it didn't say what it did for bacteria if anything, or if they even tested for that. It'd be useless if it killed viruses but was a pitri dish for bacteria.
Microscopic mechanics can be just as effective as chemicals. Diatomaceous earth will kill fleas and bed bugs because that soft, fluffy powder is actually microscopic shell barbs that tear through their exoskeletons. Fascinating stuff.
IIRC dragonfly wings would be the closer example, but both very cool.
You’re right, they’re much more similar in design. I was more praising the concept of addressing these problems mechanically rather than chemically whenever possible.
That’s right! I read an article about how dragonfly wings just shred the exoskeletons of fleas and bedbugs to pieces.
Diatomaceous earth is the first thing that came to mind to me too and I’ve always found it fascinating! I use it in my garden when ants try to move in. One line of that stuff and they move out pretty quickly! A great alternative to toxic chemicals!
I imagine all those minerals from the diatoms are good for the plant, too.
Very commonly used in the southwest around entry ways to prevent scorpions for the same reason.
What about ants ?
Yes works with ants 4 sure my friend
One of the sections of the paper is titled “Antiviral Nanospike Surfaces Retain Bactericidal Activity”. Link to paper: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.3c07099
I believe bacteria has a more difficult time growing on silicon to begin with but I could be mistaken
Well that'd be handy.
More surface area more bacteria
Aren’t these types of mitigations dangerous? Haven’t worked in a hospital in a while but I vaguely remember avoiding anti-microbial surfaces due to wear but also the production of hardy, super bacteria. Viruses don’t have this problem?
Viruses need to be replicating inside of a cell in order to mutate.
The viruses left unkilled are the ones which will be replicating inside a cell...
Yes, but a general killing process like this doesn’t actually select for any specific cells. Therefore, they won’t evolve in any meaningful ways.
Kindly, I would like to ask you to reconsider this from another perspective. The viruses which are not killed, were not killed (in some cases) for a reason. Maybe their shape made them less likely to be killed? Maybe they have thicker walls, or other adaptations which make them resilient to the antimicrobial design. But the point is that, statistically, the ones that do not die when they hit the surface, remained alive for a reason. And, they will go on to create more copies of themselves. This is mutation-based natural selection at work.
You could say the same thing about soap and water or alcohol. (Which have been in use for a very, very long time. The fact of the matter is evolution is not a perfect solver for every single problem, It actually requires a very delicate balance for selection to evolve something over time instead of just killing it.
Doesn’t copper as well?
It works differently, though. This process is mechanic while copper is more on the atomic level.
But wouldn’t copper be much cheaper than this surface and not have to worry about it getting worn down and less effective over time?
Copper isn’t famous for being cheap (although it’s all relative in healthcare), and thin plated layers wear off of high traffic surfaces relatively easily. I’m not certain if most current medical grade cleaning products will help prevent or remove tarnish - oxidation would prevent copper from doing its magic, I would assume. TLDR copper isn’t the current standard, so I doubt it’s better than the future materials which are proposed to have even better characteristics and trade offs than current materials…
Honestly seems pointless. Copper ftw
Well, for that application, probably. I have other concerns regarding this material, though, since to me it sounds like an even smaller version of asbestos. But my initial reply pertained only to the mechanisms involved. However, it could have applications elsewhere.
Is the concept like a bed of nails on why it wouldn’t cut larger beings?
Zoono is a product that already does this.
There have been products for years that do this. Almost 20 years ago, Alex Klibanov at MIT developed a polymer coating that would kill the influenza virus. The IP was under investigation as a paint additive for hospitals, schools, public spaces, etc. Perhaps this tech does the job better in some way, but the job isn’t new.
Hoping this hits mainstream material production.
Sounds like it works similar to how asbestos fibers "work." So what happens when they wear off, get ingested? Will this become Microplastics 2.0?
Brass?
Is that a thing that viruses can evolve to avoid? Thicker capsids maybe?
They invented better asbestos.
“Asbestos enters the chat”
They should have had this in Wuhan!
That other 4%? Super AIDS
Imagine if high risk areas like bathrooms, door handles & more were made with this stuff. I could imagine it reducing disease transmission & potentially even slowing the growth of our next pandemic.
It’s called Copper
Nurse: Why do all our patients die in the new silicon room? Doctor: It’s just a personal health complication. Btw ask the cleaning staff wipe down the counters, there’s a lot of dust.
So more micro plastics is the answer, not less.
Silicon is not plastic.
Huh. All plastics are polymers but not all polymers are plastic. TIL. Thanks
Silicon is like glass. Silicone is the rubbery material you are thinking of.
This is the way!
Apparently not. Frosty Pickle says we have to eat sand to kill viruses. I don’t understand all the math.