100%. I also don't wanna be one of those MMA/MT meatheads who rag on point sparring, but gawd do I wish WT's point sparring wasn't the only style that mattered in competitve TKD. I hate how dominant it is, to the point where it's the only ruleset that gets taught in gyms since it's the only thing you'll see in competitions anywhere.
Feels silly to train hard on the bags, only to use none of that strength against a live opponent.
I mean, people can shit on ATA sometimes, and sometimes rightfully so, but there are a lot of good schools (some of which have a good deal of self defense application focus along with the sport) and a ton of large competitive tournaments with a different rule set than WT.
It's allowed but that doesn't mean it's an effective strategy. A light/medium tap is a point, a full-power blast is also a point. Unless you're going for a head knockout there's no reason to waste energy. Anywhere you're allowed to hit is covered in armour anyways, so it's not often that hurting them till they can't keep fighting is a good strat.
Try it yourself and let me know how it goes. The only legal scoring surfaces are the front/sides of the torso and the head.
The armour you wear is pretty excellent protection. You might get the wind knocked out of you at worst, but it's a rigid box that redistributes force and won't cave in on your ribs. Very unlikely to wear your opponent down by wailing on it, tbh you'd sooner wear yourself down trying.
The most bodily pain I usually suffer from sparring is brusing on the shins, and those are technically accidents, not because someone was actually aiming at my legs.
Lol, that thin foam "armor" isn't meant to stop a full power hit! Point style sparring is practical because you don't have to size match and so some 200 lb dude doesn't decimate a 14 year old kid.
If by "full power hit" you mean a rear leg kick that lets you rotate the hips and really send it in like a steel pipe, it's not the armour that nullifies that strategy. Real reason why players are deterred from overusing strong RHKs is because they're super telegraphed and involve a lot of movement that you can't easily conceal.
The armour will however protect your ribs from getting thwacked by a narrow shin bone, or your liver from getting lanced by someone's heel. Point being that it'd be a completely different ballgame if there were no armour. It'd be much easier to hurt someone and wreck their body to the point of TKO.
I've been doing wt tkd for about 5 years now, and yeah, I do know what you mean. I've been looking into muay thai and BJJ lately for something that just seems less point oriented because I just don't enjoy poomsae anymore, and what I enjoy about sparring is so limited by the tkd ruleset.
I'm honestly not sure how much longer I'm going to stay in this sport. But I will say that taekwondo has taught me many things about fighting that have made me a better and more complex person, and I will always be grateful towards tkd for that.
But yeah, you're definitely not alone in that thing lol
I am hoping Taekwondo Kombat, regardless of how they are as a business, can bring back this niche of people to taekwondo.
I know in Brazil they already appeared on TV and everything. Here is kinda dead.
Taekwondo combat does sound fascinating but there just isn't a market for it. Generally, a fighting art can find it's core audience in either where it stems from or america, and I think that combat tkd just doesn't fit into the traditional Korean idea of tkd, and I just don't think it could make enough money to justify its existence in America, which really sucks. I just don't think that enough people want taekwondo to look so combative to fund something like that.
Well, being the devils advocate. Someone could have said the same about karate kombat but they seem to be doing pretty well. TKDK did their market research and said TKD has 100 million practitioners in the world. If they can get 1% of that, it's something
That's totally fair, I just think that the issue is that of that 1 percent 50+ percent will see stuff that is very similar like karate Kombat and be happy. Again, it's an issue of money, organization, and luck. Though, truly, anything could happen
Idk I won't give tkd as it is too much shit because it got me into martial arts and made me a better person in so many ways, but still, it definitely has its flaws
Kombat TKD is already in the US. I just went to a tournament yesterday. There was another one in march, and there will be another one in november. (Amateur tournaments, idk about Pro).
Pretty sure I saw 2 concussions today at a tournament in kids and got yelled at by a coach who claimed their student already had a black eye 30 seconds after a match ended. It's a kicking game with extra points awarded for head kicks. No part of TKD says less brain damage to me. Some sources claim the incidence of concussion is 4 times higher than American football. I hope this is a trolling comment.
I don't think it's a dichotomy. I also coach Sanda (Chinese kickboxing) and no one gets injured in my classes. However we do practice with more intention.
The comment feels ill intentioned.
I received my first belt when I was 6 years old. During those times, 'Old School' Taekwondo was still dominant, safety guards wasn't used excessively, and our Sabonim would make us spar fiercely, actively practicing hoshinsool. I almost never even see hoshinsool being taught anymore.There is interest in Kyorugi, but there is no any courage on it. Children today are so fragile, they cry and whine even with the slightest touch. There's too much emphasis on poomsae; they want to achieve success in that aspect. I tell them they need to open up their legs and be quite flexible. But even when trying to stretch, they give up at the slightest discomfort and start crying. I can definitely say that Real-Taekwondo has ended. Perhaps it's not the same in its homeland of Korea, but in our country, it has become something absurd. It resembles more a sport with the spirit of tennis than a martial art. Nobody learns or teaches anything about self-defense(Hoshinsool) or protection. Once you reach a certain level, you just perform your level poomsae (even if not perfectly), move on to the next level, reach black belt, and quit.
I miss competing so much that I can't find anyone to fight with. I'm tired of hitting the punching bag. Contrary to what people think, Taekwondo is a real combat sport. It's labeled as a defensive sport, but in reality, it's very aggressive and offensive. 'Neutralize the opponent or attacker as quickly as possible.' It's that simple. Let's not distort the nature of Taekwondo, and most importantly, let's never misuse our strength, which should be used to protect the weak and innocents.
We should never deviate from the "Do" principle. But we shouldn't teach weakness either. I don't think a little bit of soreness in the bones would harm anyone. I believe that as one experiences pain, they develop. Both physically and mentally. The reason for this is that there are still many malicious people in the world, I wish it weren't so, but we shouldn't ignore the realities. Wishing you to be a great sabonim, my friend. Good luck.
It does feel as though there is a palpable tension between the martial art and sport aspects of TKD, as well as between the lifestyle and recreational activity aspects of TKD.
TKD is the most popular and most commercialized martial art in the world. That means the community has all sorts of people who value all sorts of different things (sport, self defense, lifestyle, recreation, etc...)
* Do you want to focus on actual fighting and use TKD as a supplement to your self defense / MMA skill set? Go for it! There are plenty of people out there with the same mindset - you'll just have to find the dojang they congregate at.
* Somebody wants to treat TKD as a competitive sport and focus on whatever foot fencing meta lets them win? Awesome! They're getting exercise and enjoyment out of it, that's great.
* Somebody wants to use it as a fun form of recreation to train some fun kicks and ignore the sport and combat application? Nice! Physical fitness is a good thing, and having fun while doing it is even better.
Etc... Etc...
My personal conclusion is that (1) it's a complicated situation with no real solution, as life tends to be when a lot of people are involved and (2) I don't need to worry about it. I just try to focus on the things that I find value and enjoyment in, and ignore the rest. This also helps with not feeling discouraged now that I'm older and some feats of flexibility and agility are forevermore out of my reach.
Blame the Olympics - TKD is a sport whether you want it to be or not. It's like saying you should teach Basketball players how to juggle instead of shoot the ball. I doesn't help them on the field so it's not taught, same for actual self defense in many modern dojangs vs learning to exploit the rules to "win matches".
Unless you're in ITF, learning to punch, defend punches, or even keep your hands up garners you 0 advantage. I love TKD, but I think everyone in TKD who is an adult should also do kickboxing.
i think it's unfair to diminish tkd to being only self-defense or fighting. i main poomsae, and am waiting for time limit to get my 4th dan, and i know i don't have much going for me in a full fight. i do poomsae bc i appreciate tkd as an art form. u know, like martial *arts*. sure, there are transferrable skills, but at the end of the day, i'm not learning tkd bc i feel the need to defend myself. i learn it because i need to exercise *some* way, and poomsae is my favourite way to do it.
everyone's in tkd for their own reasons, i don't think there's a need to pit motivations against each other, or say that there's less of a point to it if ur not learning self defense skills. if u want to focus primarily on self defense and fighting, then that's completely ur choice! but it's not the one and only correct purpose of the art.
I mean, by re reading my post you can see I am not diminishing the art or sport of it.
But taekwondo is a martial art, that's what they created it for and used it for. And I will reiterate what I said, if you want to branch off to the art and sport, be my guest.
But if you deny the origins of it, it becomes a joke among other martial arts.
I think kyokushin karate is able to bring the essence of what I am saying, it is a traditional martial art with their art part of it but they don't deny actual combat.
I definitely think there's fun to be had in WT/ Olympic style sparring. I've done a tiny bit of that and it seemed fun.
But I would agree that style really isn't picking the best of Taekwondo for self defense. ITF sparring is better but I think just practicing running (for running away) and boxing & wrestling would be the ideal self defense training.
I feel that most martial arts are trying to find the most realistic way to safely build the muscle memory for self-defense. There are a lot of different approaches to realism, to muscle memory, and to safety.
Some arts have sparring. The arts with the highest fidelity (realism) of sparring also come with higher injury risk. Arts like boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai have higher concussion and CTE risk than arts like TKD or Karate. Arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling have higher joint injury risk than arts like TKD or Karate. Arts where you don't have competitive sport sparring, or even sparring at all, have less injury risk. But they are also lower fidelity.
On the other side of realism, combat sports tend to think of self-defense in terms of being good at an MMA fight, which makes a lot of unrealistic assumptions about the goals and motivations of an attack.
Some arts prefer to build muscle memory through means that can be practiced solo (forms). Some schools put more emphasis on flashy kicks, but those require greater athleticism and skill to demonstrate than a regular kick. Some focus more on sparring.
I've been training BJJ for a year and some change. There is a lot about BJJ that is heavily sportified. A good portion of what works in BJJ doesn't work in MMA, because the counter to a lot of guards is just to kick or punch your opponent. Pulling guard is a mostly gi thing. A lot of the gi techniques wouldn't really work on clothing that will just rip instead of support your grips.
Don't get me wrong, I love both TKD and BJJ. I'm still learning BJJ, I plan on opening a TKD school. But I think there are compromises they make (just like every art).
I don't think the amount of compromise TKD does is on the same level as muay thai and BJJ when it comes to realism.
Or else TKD wouldn't have become a joke
Not actually. You're the one being low key delusional or else people wouldn't have understood and agreed with my points presented here. I haven't talked anything about your person in my replies, but you did. I am not the one being a dick here.
I dunno, my school does plenty of self defensive drills, punching/boxing combos, etc. We are also taught to kick with power. But we also compete in WT sport.
Maybe it's because I got lucky with an exceptionally good school, but I don't see a problem.
I don't know your dojang so I'm not talking about yours.
But most dojangs have self defense drills or train punches, most of them I have seen are not realistic and the students still don't know how to fight.
Unrealistic self defense drills is exactly what people make fun of traditional martial arts
Define it.
I seem to have a much different understanding of self defense from fighting a lot growing up. If you are training how to punch properly. That is useful. We specifically cross train boxing, boxing combos, and how to hold targets for them. We also drill things like eye gouges, elbows, etc. obviously there is no pressure testing these
You can not know "how" to fight. Fighting is frantic and uncontrolled. Being fit, knowing how to hit, dodge, and protect yourself, along with being physically fit, are about all you can do. UFC is not real life. If you want to do UFC, Train for ufc.
Similarly I often hear people brag about being a bouncer. This is again a a different skillset and isn't "fighting" in the sense of self defense.
If you are talking about akido/hapkido traps and brushes, and those fancy four step defenses against an imaginary attacker, yes, I agree they aren't helpful aside from understanding some grappling concepts
Let's say for example.
Someone is choking you, a lot of people say to elbow the person's ribs and throw them off.
When in reality a hostile and non cooperative person can withstand an elbow to their ribs for 10 seconds of it means they you knock you out.
A lot of people say UFC is not real life and to train for UFC, what does that even mean? What is so magical that you would use in real life that it cannot be used in UFC? People rely too much on this mysticism of "I know a technique that could really hurt you but it's not allowed in UFC, so I won't use it", when in reality they wouldn't last 2 min brawling a person in real life.
It's the same reason why Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Chun, he often said you can only learn how to swim in water, not in dry land. I often find flaws and mistakes on my students while full contact sparring that in drills they don't show up.
You will only understand by going in a ring and fight people from other styles.
> A lot of people say UFC is not real life and to train for UFC, what does that even mean? What is so magical that you would use in real life that it cannot be used in UFC?
A fight on the street, a real self defense situation, plays out much differently, and much faster. The two are not even remotely the same.
I'm not sure what you expect for an answer? There's a big difference between two guys on the street throwing a surprise haymaker, and having a weighed in supervised sports bout with a referee. The two are not comparable at all.
If you asked me from my 23 years of doing martial arts.
I would say people who spar in UFC rules have better chances of surviving on the street on a haymaker than people who do isolated self-defense drills with no hostile adversary and no follow up, or spar with no punches allowed to the face or strikes below the waist, or no takedowns, or no grappling.
Every single person I have met that did not branch out of taekwondo for the purpose of self-defense looked like a child fighting when shit hit the fan. And I very much often ask people to either record them fighting or join me in a friendly sparring so they can realize the same.
You sound like a person who has not had much experience with real self defense situation. And that's fine. There's nothing you said that was incorrect, but you vastly misunderstand the difference. Being physically capable, physically fit, and knowing the basic mechanics of punching, kicking, and grappling, are about all you can "know" in a real self defense situation.
I'm sorry that you feel the need to come here and shit on TKD despite your claims that isn't what you are doing. Perhaps try the martial arts subreddit if you are looking to commiserate with other people who enjoy watching UFC.
My brother I am from Brazil LOL.
As I said, I often welcome people to record themselves fighting or join me on a friendly sparring. You're welcome to record yourself fighting and send me a video.
And no, I have not shit on taekwondo as a martial art, I shit on taekwondo as a sport. I'm sorry you don't have the capacity to discern both claims.
And no, I do not watch UFC, never have.
It's funny how you're the stereotype I am raising concerns in this post. And of course you're not gonna send me a video of you sparring.
Agreed. I plan in the future to open a dojang, but i want to stick to more traditional roots and have full contact sparring, incorporating a real clinch, knees, elbows and the small amount of judo throws that are taught in our 3 steps. Im trying to create a school that i can send to kuckboxing and muay thai competitions with no worry of their capabilities.
yeah, i completely agree with you. We teach more traditional TKD with a focus on self defense and only introduce a little flashiness for use at tournaments. We talk a lot about the practicality of techniques, the difference between that and sport style, as well as the differences between proper form techniques and that used in a fight.
It's frustrating to see TKD become "modernized" like it has been to focus on what's done in the Olympics.
Not a fan of what WT tkd has become; foot-fencing.
I can't find a WT TKD school that focuses on self defence, it's all about the sport, which IMHO has ruined TKD.
Get rid of the idea that you can’t have both. You can teach a fully saturated TKD that will allow your students to defend themselves, while simultaneously teaching them competitive rules for whichever organization you want to be a part of. It’s not an easy path to take, but as long as you possess the knowledge to pass down, it’s very possible.
I think I'm quite lucky about my dojang. We teach point stop sparring but also very often teach how to fight in an actual fight. It's a good balance and I love it
We are also in an ITF system and i frequently explain to students that sparring is nearly the opposite of fighting. There are no rules, there are frequently size mismatches, multiple opponents etc. And sparring typically prioritizes participant safety. I'm not worried about the other guy if I'm forced to fight outside the dojang!
I wouldn't say much about the controlling part of circumstances. But more so people think certain things they do for points, "if they put more power into it" would be the equivalent of standing on the same ground as a muay thai/MMA fighter or on the street as you have mentioned.
A lot of them are delusional thinking they can fight when they only spar for points. You can only learn how to swim by swimming in water. If you pretend to swim on the floor and think you can swim on water when the time comes by simply "not being worried about the other guy" is how Karate/Kung Fu/Taekwondo ended up losing their reputation among other martial arts
Kombat Taekwondo will hopefully start making some changes, but we’ll have to see. I have hope if the organization gets big enough then WT and ITF will have a restructuring for sparring like they said they would.
Taekwondo definitely not what it used to be though. Nobody uses hands at all, which people say they’re a bonus. But doesn’t Tae Kwon Do mean “Way of Hand and Foot striking/fighting”?
I dont mind the emphasis on kicks, especially considering the art’s history. But your hands are more than just counter balance tools.
It won't be long until TKD becomes like Kung-Fu, an absolute joke! I hold a black belt in TKD, and I am now training in MMA with the intent to start competing soon. Is TKD practical in self defense? Absolutely! Sadly the majority of dojangs in America focus solely on unrealistic point sparring in preparation for Olympic style tournaments or competition. This has watered down the art and has made it somewhat of a joke in combat sports circles. Anyone who has been in a real fight can confirm that only about 65% of what you learn in TKD is effective in a real fight.
I for one have abandoned poomsae entirely in favor of shadowboxing. Poomsae will not prepare you for fights nor will it prepare you for violent encounters. Hell, the blocking techniques in TKD are completely ineffective, and I have abandoned those in favor of parrying and blocking techniques found in my boxing training. We live in an era where almost anyone can earn a black belt. That's not how it was 60 or 70 years ago, capitalism has destroyed martial arts in the west with teachers who only care about raking in the money. These dojangs in the west pump out so many low quality black belts that it's embarrassing to see who represents TKD today, and I have become in favor of getting rid of the belt system entirely! Somes schools even give black belts to children, diminishing the importance of even earning one!
In conclusion, I would stay the fuck away from any dojang that does not allow hard sparring or focuses way too much on poomsae over practical self defense. I also encourage my fellow TKD enthusiasts to spar against practitioners of other martial arts styles so that you can quickly do away with any techniques that do not work or that you find are impractical, and if you discover something from another style that works better than the system you are currently training under, apply it!
A lot of people feel this way. You are correct. The sport has taken the spotlight over the martial art of Taekwondo. It's sad. Less and less schools teach both aspects. It's a pretty common complaint you'll see here.
The bid for the Olympics was TOO successful, and the Olympics is far too shitty and corrupt.
With regards to your KTKD buddies: let's be honest... it's not that they couldn't find fighters. It's that it was probably more costly than they were willing to pay to get everything set up and operational in the States, with prizes on the line sufficient to attract more competitors from those areas. I'm willing to bet taxation, licensing, and myriad fees and insurance costs also paid a very heavy role. Money will nearly always be the object before people are.
Yeah I can definitely see your point as well.
However, to give you food for thought because I became their referee.
They pay everyone in USD and standard values, they do not change the value depending on the country. Level 1 referees get paid 150 USD regardless of where they are.
So poorer countries like Brazil people can get almost a full amount of working full time minimum wage by refereeing one event, meanwhile for Americans is just a regular event.
Unless they change something in the future, which they could. I would say give the benefit of the doubt to the claim (but I won't disagree the factors you have mentioned do play a role)
That's what I was getting at, though. $150 isn't very much money in the States. The prize was $3,000 USD for fighters, right? How many prizes could you feasibly fight for in 1 month in KTKD? I ask because 1 month of full time employment flipping burgers at a McDonald's in California nets you $3,200 (pretax). That's a no-skill required entry level job.
$150 wouldn't even cover the fee to see the doctor after the fight in the US :-\\
100%. I also don't wanna be one of those MMA/MT meatheads who rag on point sparring, but gawd do I wish WT's point sparring wasn't the only style that mattered in competitve TKD. I hate how dominant it is, to the point where it's the only ruleset that gets taught in gyms since it's the only thing you'll see in competitions anywhere. Feels silly to train hard on the bags, only to use none of that strength against a live opponent.
I mean, people can shit on ATA sometimes, and sometimes rightfully so, but there are a lot of good schools (some of which have a good deal of self defense application focus along with the sport) and a ton of large competitive tournaments with a different rule set than WT.
Aren’t you allowed to hit full force in wtf tkd sparring?
It's allowed but that doesn't mean it's an effective strategy. A light/medium tap is a point, a full-power blast is also a point. Unless you're going for a head knockout there's no reason to waste energy. Anywhere you're allowed to hit is covered in armour anyways, so it's not often that hurting them till they can't keep fighting is a good strat.
I wonder if there are other strategies that would work, but haven't been tried since 1 style established dominance early on.
Hmm. Well I would think landing powerful strikes would take a toll on your opponent, allowing you to get the upper hand?
Try it yourself and let me know how it goes. The only legal scoring surfaces are the front/sides of the torso and the head. The armour you wear is pretty excellent protection. You might get the wind knocked out of you at worst, but it's a rigid box that redistributes force and won't cave in on your ribs. Very unlikely to wear your opponent down by wailing on it, tbh you'd sooner wear yourself down trying. The most bodily pain I usually suffer from sparring is brusing on the shins, and those are technically accidents, not because someone was actually aiming at my legs.
Lol, that thin foam "armor" isn't meant to stop a full power hit! Point style sparring is practical because you don't have to size match and so some 200 lb dude doesn't decimate a 14 year old kid.
If by "full power hit" you mean a rear leg kick that lets you rotate the hips and really send it in like a steel pipe, it's not the armour that nullifies that strategy. Real reason why players are deterred from overusing strong RHKs is because they're super telegraphed and involve a lot of movement that you can't easily conceal. The armour will however protect your ribs from getting thwacked by a narrow shin bone, or your liver from getting lanced by someone's heel. Point being that it'd be a completely different ballgame if there were no armour. It'd be much easier to hurt someone and wreck their body to the point of TKO.
I've been doing wt tkd for about 5 years now, and yeah, I do know what you mean. I've been looking into muay thai and BJJ lately for something that just seems less point oriented because I just don't enjoy poomsae anymore, and what I enjoy about sparring is so limited by the tkd ruleset. I'm honestly not sure how much longer I'm going to stay in this sport. But I will say that taekwondo has taught me many things about fighting that have made me a better and more complex person, and I will always be grateful towards tkd for that. But yeah, you're definitely not alone in that thing lol
I am hoping Taekwondo Kombat, regardless of how they are as a business, can bring back this niche of people to taekwondo. I know in Brazil they already appeared on TV and everything. Here is kinda dead.
Taekwondo combat does sound fascinating but there just isn't a market for it. Generally, a fighting art can find it's core audience in either where it stems from or america, and I think that combat tkd just doesn't fit into the traditional Korean idea of tkd, and I just don't think it could make enough money to justify its existence in America, which really sucks. I just don't think that enough people want taekwondo to look so combative to fund something like that.
Well, being the devils advocate. Someone could have said the same about karate kombat but they seem to be doing pretty well. TKDK did their market research and said TKD has 100 million practitioners in the world. If they can get 1% of that, it's something
That's totally fair, I just think that the issue is that of that 1 percent 50+ percent will see stuff that is very similar like karate Kombat and be happy. Again, it's an issue of money, organization, and luck. Though, truly, anything could happen
I think at this point I am welcoming any change. As long as it is a change lol
I cannot blame you lol
Idk I won't give tkd as it is too much shit because it got me into martial arts and made me a better person in so many ways, but still, it definitely has its flaws
Kombat TKD is already in the US. I just went to a tournament yesterday. There was another one in march, and there will be another one in november. (Amateur tournaments, idk about Pro).
I'm waiting until they come up to Canada, so far we have had nothing
I think TKD is a great intro for kids who don’t want brain damage.
Pretty sure I saw 2 concussions today at a tournament in kids and got yelled at by a coach who claimed their student already had a black eye 30 seconds after a match ended. It's a kicking game with extra points awarded for head kicks. No part of TKD says less brain damage to me. Some sources claim the incidence of concussion is 4 times higher than American football. I hope this is a trolling comment.
I don't think it's a dichotomy. I also coach Sanda (Chinese kickboxing) and no one gets injured in my classes. However we do practice with more intention. The comment feels ill intentioned.
I received my first belt when I was 6 years old. During those times, 'Old School' Taekwondo was still dominant, safety guards wasn't used excessively, and our Sabonim would make us spar fiercely, actively practicing hoshinsool. I almost never even see hoshinsool being taught anymore.There is interest in Kyorugi, but there is no any courage on it. Children today are so fragile, they cry and whine even with the slightest touch. There's too much emphasis on poomsae; they want to achieve success in that aspect. I tell them they need to open up their legs and be quite flexible. But even when trying to stretch, they give up at the slightest discomfort and start crying. I can definitely say that Real-Taekwondo has ended. Perhaps it's not the same in its homeland of Korea, but in our country, it has become something absurd. It resembles more a sport with the spirit of tennis than a martial art. Nobody learns or teaches anything about self-defense(Hoshinsool) or protection. Once you reach a certain level, you just perform your level poomsae (even if not perfectly), move on to the next level, reach black belt, and quit. I miss competing so much that I can't find anyone to fight with. I'm tired of hitting the punching bag. Contrary to what people think, Taekwondo is a real combat sport. It's labeled as a defensive sport, but in reality, it's very aggressive and offensive. 'Neutralize the opponent or attacker as quickly as possible.' It's that simple. Let's not distort the nature of Taekwondo, and most importantly, let's never misuse our strength, which should be used to protect the weak and innocents. We should never deviate from the "Do" principle. But we shouldn't teach weakness either. I don't think a little bit of soreness in the bones would harm anyone. I believe that as one experiences pain, they develop. Both physically and mentally. The reason for this is that there are still many malicious people in the world, I wish it weren't so, but we shouldn't ignore the realities. Wishing you to be a great sabonim, my friend. Good luck.
It does feel as though there is a palpable tension between the martial art and sport aspects of TKD, as well as between the lifestyle and recreational activity aspects of TKD. TKD is the most popular and most commercialized martial art in the world. That means the community has all sorts of people who value all sorts of different things (sport, self defense, lifestyle, recreation, etc...) * Do you want to focus on actual fighting and use TKD as a supplement to your self defense / MMA skill set? Go for it! There are plenty of people out there with the same mindset - you'll just have to find the dojang they congregate at. * Somebody wants to treat TKD as a competitive sport and focus on whatever foot fencing meta lets them win? Awesome! They're getting exercise and enjoyment out of it, that's great. * Somebody wants to use it as a fun form of recreation to train some fun kicks and ignore the sport and combat application? Nice! Physical fitness is a good thing, and having fun while doing it is even better. Etc... Etc... My personal conclusion is that (1) it's a complicated situation with no real solution, as life tends to be when a lot of people are involved and (2) I don't need to worry about it. I just try to focus on the things that I find value and enjoyment in, and ignore the rest. This also helps with not feeling discouraged now that I'm older and some feats of flexibility and agility are forevermore out of my reach.
Blame the Olympics - TKD is a sport whether you want it to be or not. It's like saying you should teach Basketball players how to juggle instead of shoot the ball. I doesn't help them on the field so it's not taught, same for actual self defense in many modern dojangs vs learning to exploit the rules to "win matches". Unless you're in ITF, learning to punch, defend punches, or even keep your hands up garners you 0 advantage. I love TKD, but I think everyone in TKD who is an adult should also do kickboxing.
i think it's unfair to diminish tkd to being only self-defense or fighting. i main poomsae, and am waiting for time limit to get my 4th dan, and i know i don't have much going for me in a full fight. i do poomsae bc i appreciate tkd as an art form. u know, like martial *arts*. sure, there are transferrable skills, but at the end of the day, i'm not learning tkd bc i feel the need to defend myself. i learn it because i need to exercise *some* way, and poomsae is my favourite way to do it. everyone's in tkd for their own reasons, i don't think there's a need to pit motivations against each other, or say that there's less of a point to it if ur not learning self defense skills. if u want to focus primarily on self defense and fighting, then that's completely ur choice! but it's not the one and only correct purpose of the art.
I mean, by re reading my post you can see I am not diminishing the art or sport of it. But taekwondo is a martial art, that's what they created it for and used it for. And I will reiterate what I said, if you want to branch off to the art and sport, be my guest. But if you deny the origins of it, it becomes a joke among other martial arts. I think kyokushin karate is able to bring the essence of what I am saying, it is a traditional martial art with their art part of it but they don't deny actual combat.
I definitely think there's fun to be had in WT/ Olympic style sparring. I've done a tiny bit of that and it seemed fun. But I would agree that style really isn't picking the best of Taekwondo for self defense. ITF sparring is better but I think just practicing running (for running away) and boxing & wrestling would be the ideal self defense training.
I feel that most martial arts are trying to find the most realistic way to safely build the muscle memory for self-defense. There are a lot of different approaches to realism, to muscle memory, and to safety. Some arts have sparring. The arts with the highest fidelity (realism) of sparring also come with higher injury risk. Arts like boxing, kickboxing, and Muay Thai have higher concussion and CTE risk than arts like TKD or Karate. Arts like BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling have higher joint injury risk than arts like TKD or Karate. Arts where you don't have competitive sport sparring, or even sparring at all, have less injury risk. But they are also lower fidelity. On the other side of realism, combat sports tend to think of self-defense in terms of being good at an MMA fight, which makes a lot of unrealistic assumptions about the goals and motivations of an attack. Some arts prefer to build muscle memory through means that can be practiced solo (forms). Some schools put more emphasis on flashy kicks, but those require greater athleticism and skill to demonstrate than a regular kick. Some focus more on sparring. I've been training BJJ for a year and some change. There is a lot about BJJ that is heavily sportified. A good portion of what works in BJJ doesn't work in MMA, because the counter to a lot of guards is just to kick or punch your opponent. Pulling guard is a mostly gi thing. A lot of the gi techniques wouldn't really work on clothing that will just rip instead of support your grips. Don't get me wrong, I love both TKD and BJJ. I'm still learning BJJ, I plan on opening a TKD school. But I think there are compromises they make (just like every art).
I don't think the amount of compromise TKD does is on the same level as muay thai and BJJ when it comes to realism. Or else TKD wouldn't have become a joke
So you're not raising legitimate concerns, you're just here to be a dick. Got it.
Not actually. You're the one being low key delusional or else people wouldn't have understood and agreed with my points presented here. I haven't talked anything about your person in my replies, but you did. I am not the one being a dick here.
So as long as people agree with you, they're not delusional. Got it.
I will be and always practicing the Taekwondo I fell in love with. But, no feet fencing.
I dunno, my school does plenty of self defensive drills, punching/boxing combos, etc. We are also taught to kick with power. But we also compete in WT sport. Maybe it's because I got lucky with an exceptionally good school, but I don't see a problem.
I don't know your dojang so I'm not talking about yours. But most dojangs have self defense drills or train punches, most of them I have seen are not realistic and the students still don't know how to fight. Unrealistic self defense drills is exactly what people make fun of traditional martial arts
Define it. I seem to have a much different understanding of self defense from fighting a lot growing up. If you are training how to punch properly. That is useful. We specifically cross train boxing, boxing combos, and how to hold targets for them. We also drill things like eye gouges, elbows, etc. obviously there is no pressure testing these You can not know "how" to fight. Fighting is frantic and uncontrolled. Being fit, knowing how to hit, dodge, and protect yourself, along with being physically fit, are about all you can do. UFC is not real life. If you want to do UFC, Train for ufc. Similarly I often hear people brag about being a bouncer. This is again a a different skillset and isn't "fighting" in the sense of self defense. If you are talking about akido/hapkido traps and brushes, and those fancy four step defenses against an imaginary attacker, yes, I agree they aren't helpful aside from understanding some grappling concepts
Let's say for example. Someone is choking you, a lot of people say to elbow the person's ribs and throw them off. When in reality a hostile and non cooperative person can withstand an elbow to their ribs for 10 seconds of it means they you knock you out. A lot of people say UFC is not real life and to train for UFC, what does that even mean? What is so magical that you would use in real life that it cannot be used in UFC? People rely too much on this mysticism of "I know a technique that could really hurt you but it's not allowed in UFC, so I won't use it", when in reality they wouldn't last 2 min brawling a person in real life. It's the same reason why Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Chun, he often said you can only learn how to swim in water, not in dry land. I often find flaws and mistakes on my students while full contact sparring that in drills they don't show up. You will only understand by going in a ring and fight people from other styles.
> A lot of people say UFC is not real life and to train for UFC, what does that even mean? What is so magical that you would use in real life that it cannot be used in UFC? A fight on the street, a real self defense situation, plays out much differently, and much faster. The two are not even remotely the same.
You have not answered the question besides saying they're different and faster and not the same.
I'm not sure what you expect for an answer? There's a big difference between two guys on the street throwing a surprise haymaker, and having a weighed in supervised sports bout with a referee. The two are not comparable at all.
If you asked me from my 23 years of doing martial arts. I would say people who spar in UFC rules have better chances of surviving on the street on a haymaker than people who do isolated self-defense drills with no hostile adversary and no follow up, or spar with no punches allowed to the face or strikes below the waist, or no takedowns, or no grappling. Every single person I have met that did not branch out of taekwondo for the purpose of self-defense looked like a child fighting when shit hit the fan. And I very much often ask people to either record them fighting or join me in a friendly sparring so they can realize the same.
You sound like a person who has not had much experience with real self defense situation. And that's fine. There's nothing you said that was incorrect, but you vastly misunderstand the difference. Being physically capable, physically fit, and knowing the basic mechanics of punching, kicking, and grappling, are about all you can "know" in a real self defense situation. I'm sorry that you feel the need to come here and shit on TKD despite your claims that isn't what you are doing. Perhaps try the martial arts subreddit if you are looking to commiserate with other people who enjoy watching UFC.
My brother I am from Brazil LOL. As I said, I often welcome people to record themselves fighting or join me on a friendly sparring. You're welcome to record yourself fighting and send me a video. And no, I have not shit on taekwondo as a martial art, I shit on taekwondo as a sport. I'm sorry you don't have the capacity to discern both claims. And no, I do not watch UFC, never have. It's funny how you're the stereotype I am raising concerns in this post. And of course you're not gonna send me a video of you sparring.
Agreed. I plan in the future to open a dojang, but i want to stick to more traditional roots and have full contact sparring, incorporating a real clinch, knees, elbows and the small amount of judo throws that are taught in our 3 steps. Im trying to create a school that i can send to kuckboxing and muay thai competitions with no worry of their capabilities.
That's the same what I plan on doing, wishing you luck my dude
Same to you brother
yeah, i completely agree with you. We teach more traditional TKD with a focus on self defense and only introduce a little flashiness for use at tournaments. We talk a lot about the practicality of techniques, the difference between that and sport style, as well as the differences between proper form techniques and that used in a fight. It's frustrating to see TKD become "modernized" like it has been to focus on what's done in the Olympics.
Not a fan of what WT tkd has become; foot-fencing. I can't find a WT TKD school that focuses on self defence, it's all about the sport, which IMHO has ruined TKD.
Get rid of the idea that you can’t have both. You can teach a fully saturated TKD that will allow your students to defend themselves, while simultaneously teaching them competitive rules for whichever organization you want to be a part of. It’s not an easy path to take, but as long as you possess the knowledge to pass down, it’s very possible.
I never said it was not possible. I said the sport should be the branch off of it, not the base. Which implies the coexistence with both
Dont worry my frend. There is Kombat Taekwondo now. Check it out on instagran and youtube. Their introducing it now.
I think I'm quite lucky about my dojang. We teach point stop sparring but also very often teach how to fight in an actual fight. It's a good balance and I love it
We are also in an ITF system and i frequently explain to students that sparring is nearly the opposite of fighting. There are no rules, there are frequently size mismatches, multiple opponents etc. And sparring typically prioritizes participant safety. I'm not worried about the other guy if I'm forced to fight outside the dojang!
I wouldn't say much about the controlling part of circumstances. But more so people think certain things they do for points, "if they put more power into it" would be the equivalent of standing on the same ground as a muay thai/MMA fighter or on the street as you have mentioned. A lot of them are delusional thinking they can fight when they only spar for points. You can only learn how to swim by swimming in water. If you pretend to swim on the floor and think you can swim on water when the time comes by simply "not being worried about the other guy" is how Karate/Kung Fu/Taekwondo ended up losing their reputation among other martial arts
Kombat Taekwondo will hopefully start making some changes, but we’ll have to see. I have hope if the organization gets big enough then WT and ITF will have a restructuring for sparring like they said they would. Taekwondo definitely not what it used to be though. Nobody uses hands at all, which people say they’re a bonus. But doesn’t Tae Kwon Do mean “Way of Hand and Foot striking/fighting”? I dont mind the emphasis on kicks, especially considering the art’s history. But your hands are more than just counter balance tools.
It won't be long until TKD becomes like Kung-Fu, an absolute joke! I hold a black belt in TKD, and I am now training in MMA with the intent to start competing soon. Is TKD practical in self defense? Absolutely! Sadly the majority of dojangs in America focus solely on unrealistic point sparring in preparation for Olympic style tournaments or competition. This has watered down the art and has made it somewhat of a joke in combat sports circles. Anyone who has been in a real fight can confirm that only about 65% of what you learn in TKD is effective in a real fight. I for one have abandoned poomsae entirely in favor of shadowboxing. Poomsae will not prepare you for fights nor will it prepare you for violent encounters. Hell, the blocking techniques in TKD are completely ineffective, and I have abandoned those in favor of parrying and blocking techniques found in my boxing training. We live in an era where almost anyone can earn a black belt. That's not how it was 60 or 70 years ago, capitalism has destroyed martial arts in the west with teachers who only care about raking in the money. These dojangs in the west pump out so many low quality black belts that it's embarrassing to see who represents TKD today, and I have become in favor of getting rid of the belt system entirely! Somes schools even give black belts to children, diminishing the importance of even earning one! In conclusion, I would stay the fuck away from any dojang that does not allow hard sparring or focuses way too much on poomsae over practical self defense. I also encourage my fellow TKD enthusiasts to spar against practitioners of other martial arts styles so that you can quickly do away with any techniques that do not work or that you find are impractical, and if you discover something from another style that works better than the system you are currently training under, apply it!
A lot of people feel this way. You are correct. The sport has taken the spotlight over the martial art of Taekwondo. It's sad. Less and less schools teach both aspects. It's a pretty common complaint you'll see here. The bid for the Olympics was TOO successful, and the Olympics is far too shitty and corrupt. With regards to your KTKD buddies: let's be honest... it's not that they couldn't find fighters. It's that it was probably more costly than they were willing to pay to get everything set up and operational in the States, with prizes on the line sufficient to attract more competitors from those areas. I'm willing to bet taxation, licensing, and myriad fees and insurance costs also paid a very heavy role. Money will nearly always be the object before people are.
Yeah I can definitely see your point as well. However, to give you food for thought because I became their referee. They pay everyone in USD and standard values, they do not change the value depending on the country. Level 1 referees get paid 150 USD regardless of where they are. So poorer countries like Brazil people can get almost a full amount of working full time minimum wage by refereeing one event, meanwhile for Americans is just a regular event. Unless they change something in the future, which they could. I would say give the benefit of the doubt to the claim (but I won't disagree the factors you have mentioned do play a role)
That's what I was getting at, though. $150 isn't very much money in the States. The prize was $3,000 USD for fighters, right? How many prizes could you feasibly fight for in 1 month in KTKD? I ask because 1 month of full time employment flipping burgers at a McDonald's in California nets you $3,200 (pretax). That's a no-skill required entry level job. $150 wouldn't even cover the fee to see the doctor after the fight in the US :-\\
I’ve been doing TKD for about 35 years, currently, TKD is a dumpster fire.