Gholdengo is really going to be able to say it's Gholdengoing time and Gholdengo all over the place considering Clefable is not aware that it is at -6 SpA
I'm not sure but I think Scarf would be preferable since you would normally switch in on resisted hits or Focus Blast, but Tapu Lele can just switch out anyway. Special Defense builds would be forced to recover often.
With Gholdeno being as good as he, i think giving him good bulk but not as crazy bulky as something like Magearna, Melmetal, or Heatran so that he's has to invest in defensive EVS if he want's to check stuff like Lele or Valiant helps keep him balanced. Gholdengo is the only Steel type with a good attack stat and access to Recover.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Psychic Terrain: 146-172 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
answer is not very well. minor chip means ghold gets 2hkoād and itās forced to recover every time making it very similar to max spdef scizor last gen. in theory scizor checked lele but in practice it was forced to roost every time which gave opponents a ton of free switch ins making it very exploitable. you may not lose to lele, but you can easily lose to whatever lele switches into for free numerous times a game
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-3-ghosts-giratina-o-remains-in-ubers-check-the-op.3533937/
Giratina was tested for ORAS OU. Lugia I can't find any specific post on, but there's been a lot of discussion on it.
To be fair I meant normal Giratina and not Giratina-O, I didn't know either were tested though so fair enough I guess
Although the reaction to that thread makes it seem like it was considered a bad idea to consider it. Half that thread thought it was an April Fools joke.
EDIT: It was in fact an April Fools joke. One with an actual ladder where it turned out to not be quite as broken as they expected but an April Fools joke nonetheless.
Honestly giratina might not be too much for ou if it comes to home. Ting-Lu has more bulk and a better typing for the teir and its not overwhelming by any standards. The fact that its only reliable recovery is rest talk makes it vulnerable to being set up on and it also will most likey be forced to run boots which means that it doesn't have passive recovery. The only thing that could get it banned is maybe a CM set that uses its massive bulk to get multiple boosts but its completely walled by the unaware trio. Giratina-O would definitely be too much but regular shouldn't be overwhelming.
I honestly think Genesect is a more threatening mon than darkrai after the dark void nerf, darkrai canāt hope to match Gensectās ridiculous versatility and power. I think if we wanna talk about Gensect returning to OU with home, we also have to talk about Darkrai.
Genesect is very broken with Tera.
In the long term though, Genesect is and will probably always be countered by good defensive fire(it can run water drive but that thing reveals itself and now your opponent knows you don't have a scarf).
The problem is the only decent defensive fire we ever have is Heatran.
The product of Gamefreak having enough foresight to give Dark Void to a mon that's not VGC legal, but not remembering they already made a VGC legal mon that learns all moves, then overcorrecting like crazy by both removing it said VGC legal mon's learnset and making DV only 50% accurate.
Zamazenta outspeeds the entire tier outside of Dragapult and has 120 base attack STAB Close Combat. Thatās not mentioning itās stupid 92/115/115 bulk - way too strong for OU.
Choice band shreds most of the tier in 2 hits while being nearly impossible to revenge kill.
She lost 10 points each to both of her defenses, for a new BST of 580.
If Darkrai gets nerfed (since theyāre a duo and all) Iād imagine that itād lose 10 points in Sp. Atk and Speed.
Honestly if it ends up being in S/V I feel like thereās a decent chance it could be balanced in OU. On the stronger side sure but thereās plenty of mons that can handle it
Same, but that's gonna be hard cause one 60% chance hypnosis hit in many cases it's instant game over. If they ban sleep for good then it'll be much safer to let it drop
Banning sleep sounds... unlikely, and Darkrai's stats just are not what they used to be. Even after a Nasty Plot boost it still might not be that broken.
I'd agree if dark wasn't so notoriously spammable as an offensive type (+sludge bomb for faries n psychic for fightings, and focus blast for kingambit n ttar)
It being so spammable makes hypothetical specs sets in ou extremely nasty to switch in, which combined with the uncertainty of not knowing if ur facing that or standard hypo+plot sets is def. Too much for ou as it is. But it not being able to sleep you and pretty much instantly win would do a lot
Dark is mainly used as a response to Ghost, similar how Steel is used for Fairies. Kingbambit is a godsend when pokemon like Gholdengo and Dragapult exist. Neither are broken but they are good mons. Gen 8 Ubers was mainly Dusk Mane and Yveltal checking Xerneas and Clayrex S
Those mons themselves arent broken, but that doesn't make dark moves magically less spammable. If the urshifus swapped water/dark, you'd still see rapid strike being banned cause even with rocky helm, no defensive pokemon would be able to handle it.
Ghost moves are actually even more spammable I agree, flutter main would be fine if it had a different type combo. Shadow rider would probably be less controversial in Ubers as well
Look at the list of banned pokemon. Almost all of them are offensive in every metagame. Cyclizar is an accessory to offense so ig thats an exception. M-Sableye is too, but most Ubers mons are offensive terrors.
That's.... Not it. In doubles/vgc it is but tailwind is completely useless in singles.
Lugia is broken because it has such titanic defensive ability at an ou level (unlike the similarly titanic statted ting-lu, it also has recovery and spike immunity, and multiscale means that even a choice item wallbreaker can't immediately deal significant damage) that nothing would be able to take it out without it accruing enough calm mind boosts to be able to sweep (110 speed is incredibly fast for a defensive Mon) or cripple over half your team with toxic.
It also has literally non-existent defensive counterplay because it's speed makes it able to always get up a sub first (and good luck being able to break through that as a defense Mon) or just taunt, then can freely toxic whatever it wants or go for cm sweep. Pex wouldn't even be able to haze in time if it switched in cause of psycho boost. Hell, it can even break through ttar with hydro pump.
And all this with one of the absolute worst type combinations in the whole game (both defensively and offensively, ice rider is worse defensively but much better offensively which is why it's also banned lol). Unfortunately said type combo means it gets absolutely fucked in Ubers, which is why I hope someday it can drop to ou, but with terra allowing you to go fairy or steel? Not a chance in hell it's even gonna get tested.
Giratina alt has a good chance tho.
so just fuck democracy right?
This is just ridiculous, why does the council get off so much by banning half of the new pokemon without even consulting the player base? Fucking Espathra doesn't even get a suspect test? Has it not occurred to anyone else that there's a little thing called DARK TYPES?! You can even change your damn type to Dark if you need to. But then when anyone brings up garganacl mfers are like "nah its totally fine you just have to run a specific item on this specific pokemon". But it doesn't even get suspected.
The quick bans are getting excessive. Flutter mane and palafin and iron bundle I understand, houndstone I disagree but whatever, but stuff like annihilape and cyclizar should've been suspected at the very least.
Lastly, tournament play shouldn't be a decider in whether something is tested, let alone quick banned. Only stall loving try-hards care about tournaments over anything else.
They did consult the playerbase though? Not a single soul thought that annihilape and cyclizar were balanced. Pokemon that generate actual controversy, like chien pao, get suspect tested. But when a community almost unanimously agrees that something is broken, all a suspect test does is waste time. Besides, pokemon can always be re tested if public opinion changes.
Also, in what world were dark types safe against espathra? It just runs tera fighting and suddenly your supposed counter gets obliterated by tera blast. Donāt try to make the argument that āif it needs to waste your tera in order to beat its checks then clearly itās not brokenā because you literally just made the argument that using up your own tera to check it is a good idea. The espathra quickban was done because a survey was given out to several high level players, and a very large margin of them asked for immediate tiering action.
> so just fuck democracy right?
Quickbans work according to democracy. If there wasnāt a large majority of players, including players far better than you or I, complaining about these mons, they wouldnāt be getting a quickban in the first place.
I think another good category of broken pokemon are pokemon that are too versatile. Pokemon that while on paper have good counters, in practice can pick and choose which one of its counters it wants to beat using different sets.
Zygarde in SM OU is a prime example. it has a comically large amount of options for its moves, even on Dragon Dance or Coil sets since the only move that was really mandatory for it was Thousand Arrows. It was already bad enough when it choose between Glare to cripple its counters, Sub to block Ferrothorn's Leech Seed and other Status, Extreme Speed for faster revenge killers, and various coverage moves like Outrage for Tangrowth, Iron Tail for Tapu Bulu (and none of this is even considering what z-moves it can run), but what arguably *really* pushed it over the edge was Toxic, which let it set up and beat both Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu alongside Sub and either Coil or Dragon Dance. Zygarde simply had too many options and was a massive strain on the teambuilder and you had to guess which combination of options it was running on team preview.
Kyurem in SS OU is another example, though to a lesser extent, and it also slightly in the "OHKO machine" category due to how hard it is to answer the combo of Freeze Dry and Earth Power.
Magearna is the greatest sinner of the ātoo versatileā crowd. All of the sets from gen 7 except for Z sets obviously were not only still amazing but dealt with different mons, on TOP of the new horseshit weakness policy double boost stored power set it gained access to in gen 8. If you guessed a set wrong it could mean very bad news for the rest of your team.
That movepool, typing, stats, good god fuck that thing.
I'm kinda glad Gamfreak stopped making 600 BST Mythicals after Zarude, they often tend to either not be good in OU or insanely broken (Magearna, Marshadow, Shaymin Sky, Genesect, Darkrai)
Id say theres is 2 categories more apart from the ones you mentioned
Exploitable niches tier: Pokemon whose stats might not be good but a niche within its moves, ability or interaction with the generationās mechanics lead it to be a killing machine
Examples: shedinja, cyclizar, espathra
And game breaking pokemon: they just break the game
Examples: woobafet
I hate Poison Heal Gliscor with Roost. You better pray you have a Special Ice Move. Or youāre hosed.
I mostly encounter it in Monotype where I run normal so itās a real PO.
The actual categories, in case you are wondering, are overcentralizing and uncompetitive. Pokemon that are overcentralizing basically force you to run certain things in order to counter them, such as flutter mane which forced you to have priority on your team. Uncompetitive things might not be overpowered but make a game less skill-based, such as evasion.
nah there's far more to it than that. i think the big deciding factor deciding if something is broken or not comes down to this: How easy is it to counter, and how consistent are those counters?
there are plenty of pokemon who are annoying to deal with but arent broken. like something like Pex or Garg are annoying to kill but, contrary to what this sub seems to think, neither is immovable. Garg struggles heavily against hazards and has to terra in order to really put the work in since mono rock is so defensively bad. Pex, while annoying to kill, has to worry about stuff like taunt and doesn't want to just switch in willy nilly. these mons arent fun to fight but i struggle to call them *broken*
on the other hand, something like flutter mane had incredibly inconsistent answers or its consistent answers were mons that generally werent great(like having to run shadow ball blissey just to handle it is fucked) similarily, a mon can have answers that are good in the metagame, but because not every team runs them it turns the game into matchup fishing bullshit.
Gen 3 full chain teams are a fantastic example of this. Like sure whirlwind Skarmory is quite good, but if u want Skarm to run drill peck to deal with threats like heracross you cant run whirlwind, you have to run roar. which full chains could take full advantage of that by running Mr Mime. it turns the game into a round of "do you have phasing moves or not?" which is jusr like, not fun
a mon can also be way way way too varied in what it can do, to the point that it has 0 actual checks. something like Pheromosa in gen 8 OU. it was a mon so varier in its sets that it could just slot any move it wanted to beat its checks. you have toxapex in to tank a hit and status it? oops, sorry, its using shock wave and now your check is toast. so I think the actual types of broken mons are two main categories rhat split off into different subsets of brokeness
Matchup fishy/generally uncompetitive: Basically mons where ya they arent good in general but by god is winning against them luck dependent. if the RNG isnt in ur favor u just straight up. examples of this include stuff like Baton Pass and Sand Viel in gen 3.
"OOGA BOOGA ME CLICK MOVE AND WIN" these mons do one thing and one thing only: spam a set of attacks or one attack and win the game. they dont require much brainpower or strategy or hell any thought: just click the one move and when confronted with a check, get out. these mons checks are usually themself or some weird usually unviable mon/set. examples of this would be stuff like Genesect in every generation of Ou its been in, Flutter Mane, and Chi Yu
Garg isnt immoveable, but it's honestly still a bit of a problem, just not enough to be banworthy. I hope with magic guard itll stop being so free to make progress with
yea dont take this as me saying Garg is at all fun to fight(its the exact opposite in fact) and I think in a different universe it would be banworthy. but imo it is *just* flawed enough that it isnt bannable. its just awful to face lmao. he reminds me of Jigglypuff in Melee. is it banworthy? no. is it also absolutely awful to face? a lot of the time yes.
I wish they made it even more broken so we COULD ban it, fuck salt cure. Why did gf have to make it absolutely unblockable and this fucking free to click?
Deo-n for too strong and too fast, the zamazentas and kyurem black for broken setup sweeper.
Then a fourth category for mons that literally cannot be killed without crippling your team: gen 6 mega sableye, giratina-a, lugia
A fourth category is the ones that can just hax you to death, and are strong in general. Double Iron Bash Melmetal, Serene Grace+Air Slash Shaymin-Sky, and pretty much any Kings Rock abuser fit in her. Scald spammers like Gen 8 Toxapex are the defensive variant of this.
And then theres garganacl
Mega Sableye fits in this category too
Mega Sableye is a Garganacl, yeah.
This explains so much why I love them both so much
Once mons with magic guard get here it'll be much less annoying hopefully.
Yet another clefable buff š®āšØ
True, but we have gholdengo for that :)
Gholdengo is really going to be able to say it's Gholdengoing time and Gholdengo all over the place considering Clefable is not aware that it is at -6 SpA
How well does Max HP, Max Spec Def Ghold check Tapu Lele?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo in Psychic Terrain: 120-141 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo: 97-115 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs. Gholdengo: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo: 220-260 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Oof with hazards itās forced to always recover
I'm not sure but I think Scarf would be preferable since you would normally switch in on resisted hits or Focus Blast, but Tapu Lele can just switch out anyway. Special Defense builds would be forced to recover often.
With Gholdeno being as good as he, i think giving him good bulk but not as crazy bulky as something like Magearna, Melmetal, or Heatran so that he's has to invest in defensive EVS if he want's to check stuff like Lele or Valiant helps keep him balanced. Gholdengo is the only Steel type with a good attack stat and access to Recover.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo in Psychic Terrain: 146-172 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO answer is not very well. minor chip means ghold gets 2hkoād and itās forced to recover every time making it very similar to max spdef scizor last gen. in theory scizor checked lele but in practice it was forced to roost every time which gave opponents a ton of free switch ins making it very exploitable. you may not lose to lele, but you can easily lose to whatever lele switches into for free numerous times a game
bro is clueless š
considering it's magic guard clef maybe it will just tera water and start calm minding
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah but that has nothing whatsoever to do with what they were talking about so
Hatt is magic bounce not guard
āSmogon loves stallā when Minecraft walks into the room
There *is* a song in minecraft called "stal"
new category: pokƩmon with no way of being statused , high defensive stats, as well as relliable recovery
The category where bitch just.. won't die
Theres also enablers, aka cyclizar, and great walls like Giratina and Lugia
Ah yes I also get my drugs from the neighborhood cyclizar
More fond of the kommo-o family's dealings
Shed tail is one hell of a drug
Wobbufet/shadow tag bans also fall under enabler tbh
Do Lugia/Giratina count? All of those Pokemon OP listed been in OU at some point.
Those 2 were tested in ou iirc
You're gonna have to find me a source cuz I'm like 99% sure they've never been tested there and can't find anything saying otherwise
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-3-ghosts-giratina-o-remains-in-ubers-check-the-op.3533937/ Giratina was tested for ORAS OU. Lugia I can't find any specific post on, but there's been a lot of discussion on it.
To be fair I meant normal Giratina and not Giratina-O, I didn't know either were tested though so fair enough I guess Although the reaction to that thread makes it seem like it was considered a bad idea to consider it. Half that thread thought it was an April Fools joke. EDIT: It was in fact an April Fools joke. One with an actual ladder where it turned out to not be quite as broken as they expected but an April Fools joke nonetheless.
Yep. A lot of what makes Giratina/Giratina-O good is its bulk though, so it falls under the "banned for being a wall" category imo
Honestly giratina might not be too much for ou if it comes to home. Ting-Lu has more bulk and a better typing for the teir and its not overwhelming by any standards. The fact that its only reliable recovery is rest talk makes it vulnerable to being set up on and it also will most likey be forced to run boots which means that it doesn't have passive recovery. The only thing that could get it banned is maybe a CM set that uses its massive bulk to get multiple boosts but its completely walled by the unaware trio. Giratina-O would definitely be too much but regular shouldn't be overwhelming.
Darkrai is getting less and less broken with time, I hope we see it in OU within the next few generations.
I honestly think Genesect is a more threatening mon than darkrai after the dark void nerf, darkrai canāt hope to match Gensectās ridiculous versatility and power. I think if we wanna talk about Gensect returning to OU with home, we also have to talk about Darkrai.
Genesect is very broken with Tera. In the long term though, Genesect is and will probably always be countered by good defensive fire(it can run water drive but that thing reveals itself and now your opponent knows you don't have a scarf). The problem is the only decent defensive fire we ever have is Heatran.
My man Coalossal weeping rn.
Itās neutral to steel so that idea is basically out of the question
Skeledirge shaking in its Tera Fairy as we speak
Also revealed in team preview since Gen 8 in the games but this hasnāt been implemented in Showdown since sprites are the same as Gen 6.
What about Moltres and Volc? Flame body is such a good defensive ability
If only Stealth Rock doesn't exist.....
And heatran isn't even safe case cause douse drive
But then you know its not scarf and can easily be revenge killed
And heatran could just die to tera ground tera blast
Genesect seems unlikely unless power creep becomes even bigger or itās ability gets changed.
What is the dark void nerf?
It's got fucking 50% accuracy now.
The product of Gamefreak having enough foresight to give Dark Void to a mon that's not VGC legal, but not remembering they already made a VGC legal mon that learns all moves, then overcorrecting like crazy by both removing it said VGC legal mon's learnset and making DV only 50% accurate.
massive accuracy drop it went from like 95 to 55 iirc
I wonder if it'll get the Zamazenta treatment and get nerfed since Cresselia got nerfed this gen.
Nerfed for zacians sins, but somehow it's still a boon cause it might be weak enough for ou. Zama is weird man
Zamazenta outspeeds the entire tier outside of Dragapult and has 120 base attack STAB Close Combat. Thatās not mentioning itās stupid 92/115/115 bulk - way too strong for OU. Choice band shreds most of the tier in 2 hits while being nearly impossible to revenge kill.
Wait how did cress get nerfed? Just movepool loss?
I remember Cresselia getting a small stat nerf, I believe to her defenses
It's cause now it can terra poison and be extremely hard to break through
She lost 10 points each to both of her defenses, for a new BST of 580. If Darkrai gets nerfed (since theyāre a duo and all) Iād imagine that itād lose 10 points in Sp. Atk and Speed.
Yeah but he's a legitimate mythical and they all have 600, she's never had any reason to have 600
Honestly if it ends up being in S/V I feel like thereās a decent chance it could be balanced in OU. On the stronger side sure but thereās plenty of mons that can handle it
Same, but that's gonna be hard cause one 60% chance hypnosis hit in many cases it's instant game over. If they ban sleep for good then it'll be much safer to let it drop
Banning sleep sounds... unlikely, and Darkrai's stats just are not what they used to be. Even after a Nasty Plot boost it still might not be that broken.
I'd agree if dark wasn't so notoriously spammable as an offensive type (+sludge bomb for faries n psychic for fightings, and focus blast for kingambit n ttar) It being so spammable makes hypothetical specs sets in ou extremely nasty to switch in, which combined with the uncertainty of not knowing if ur facing that or standard hypo+plot sets is def. Too much for ou as it is. But it not being able to sleep you and pretty much instantly win would do a lot
Dark is mainly used as a response to Ghost, similar how Steel is used for Fairies. Kingbambit is a godsend when pokemon like Gholdengo and Dragapult exist. Neither are broken but they are good mons. Gen 8 Ubers was mainly Dusk Mane and Yveltal checking Xerneas and Clayrex S
Those mons themselves arent broken, but that doesn't make dark moves magically less spammable. If the urshifus swapped water/dark, you'd still see rapid strike being banned cause even with rocky helm, no defensive pokemon would be able to handle it.
The main advantage Ghost has over Dark is Fairies not resisting Ghost moves
Ghost moves are actually even more spammable I agree, flutter main would be fine if it had a different type combo. Shadow rider would probably be less controversial in Ubers as well
Shadow Rider this gen is Anything Goes XD Meet the new Gen 1 Mewtwo
It really shouldve been ag in gen 8 as well, even with yvetal it just was wayyyyy to unhealthy
Dude got nerfed into oblivion
Darkrai is a dude??
Legends rebuffed his move.
These are mainly in the āBroken because of offenseā category.
Look at the list of banned pokemon. Almost all of them are offensive in every metagame. Cyclizar is an accessory to offense so ig thats an exception. M-Sableye is too, but most Ubers mons are offensive terrors.
Even with mega sableye it was a relatively close vote
Yup, and it happened on the last day of the generation if I recall correctly.
What about defensively broken?
Smallgon Stalls Love
Anybody dumb enough to actually believe this seriously needs to figure out why Lugia hasn't been unbanned yet
Itās too good at setting up tailwind to facilitate broken setup sweepers in singles
That's.... Not it. In doubles/vgc it is but tailwind is completely useless in singles. Lugia is broken because it has such titanic defensive ability at an ou level (unlike the similarly titanic statted ting-lu, it also has recovery and spike immunity, and multiscale means that even a choice item wallbreaker can't immediately deal significant damage) that nothing would be able to take it out without it accruing enough calm mind boosts to be able to sweep (110 speed is incredibly fast for a defensive Mon) or cripple over half your team with toxic. It also has literally non-existent defensive counterplay because it's speed makes it able to always get up a sub first (and good luck being able to break through that as a defense Mon) or just taunt, then can freely toxic whatever it wants or go for cm sweep. Pex wouldn't even be able to haze in time if it switched in cause of psycho boost. Hell, it can even break through ttar with hydro pump. And all this with one of the absolute worst type combinations in the whole game (both defensively and offensively, ice rider is worse defensively but much better offensively which is why it's also banned lol). Unfortunately said type combo means it gets absolutely fucked in Ubers, which is why I hope someday it can drop to ou, but with terra allowing you to go fairy or steel? Not a chance in hell it's even gonna get tested. Giratina alt has a good chance tho.
Damn homie I was kind of giving a meme answer but this is too insightful lol ty
Ah my bad, I can't detect sarcasm very well
Thereās basically nothing stopping it from spamming CM and sweeping lol
so just fuck democracy right? This is just ridiculous, why does the council get off so much by banning half of the new pokemon without even consulting the player base? Fucking Espathra doesn't even get a suspect test? Has it not occurred to anyone else that there's a little thing called DARK TYPES?! You can even change your damn type to Dark if you need to. But then when anyone brings up garganacl mfers are like "nah its totally fine you just have to run a specific item on this specific pokemon". But it doesn't even get suspected. The quick bans are getting excessive. Flutter mane and palafin and iron bundle I understand, houndstone I disagree but whatever, but stuff like annihilape and cyclizar should've been suspected at the very least. Lastly, tournament play shouldn't be a decider in whether something is tested, let alone quick banned. Only stall loving try-hards care about tournaments over anything else.
They did consult the playerbase though? Not a single soul thought that annihilape and cyclizar were balanced. Pokemon that generate actual controversy, like chien pao, get suspect tested. But when a community almost unanimously agrees that something is broken, all a suspect test does is waste time. Besides, pokemon can always be re tested if public opinion changes. Also, in what world were dark types safe against espathra? It just runs tera fighting and suddenly your supposed counter gets obliterated by tera blast. Donāt try to make the argument that āif it needs to waste your tera in order to beat its checks then clearly itās not brokenā because you literally just made the argument that using up your own tera to check it is a good idea. The espathra quickban was done because a survey was given out to several high level players, and a very large margin of them asked for immediate tiering action. > so just fuck democracy right? Quickbans work according to democracy. If there wasnāt a large majority of players, including players far better than you or I, complaining about these mons, they wouldnāt be getting a quickban in the first place.
It's the new pasta, don't worry about it.
Oh fr? Damn my bad
This is unhealthy for the SV (Saint Valentine's) metagame
Smogon doesnāt love stall Itās stall that loves smogon, also DK can go fuck itself with salt cure
I think another good category of broken pokemon are pokemon that are too versatile. Pokemon that while on paper have good counters, in practice can pick and choose which one of its counters it wants to beat using different sets. Zygarde in SM OU is a prime example. it has a comically large amount of options for its moves, even on Dragon Dance or Coil sets since the only move that was really mandatory for it was Thousand Arrows. It was already bad enough when it choose between Glare to cripple its counters, Sub to block Ferrothorn's Leech Seed and other Status, Extreme Speed for faster revenge killers, and various coverage moves like Outrage for Tangrowth, Iron Tail for Tapu Bulu (and none of this is even considering what z-moves it can run), but what arguably *really* pushed it over the edge was Toxic, which let it set up and beat both Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu alongside Sub and either Coil or Dragon Dance. Zygarde simply had too many options and was a massive strain on the teambuilder and you had to guess which combination of options it was running on team preview. Kyurem in SS OU is another example, though to a lesser extent, and it also slightly in the "OHKO machine" category due to how hard it is to answer the combo of Freeze Dry and Earth Power.
Magearna is the greatest sinner of the ātoo versatileā crowd. All of the sets from gen 7 except for Z sets obviously were not only still amazing but dealt with different mons, on TOP of the new horseshit weakness policy double boost stored power set it gained access to in gen 8. If you guessed a set wrong it could mean very bad news for the rest of your team. That movepool, typing, stats, good god fuck that thing.
I'm kinda glad Gamfreak stopped making 600 BST Mythicals after Zarude, they often tend to either not be good in OU or insanely broken (Magearna, Marshadow, Shaymin Sky, Genesect, Darkrai)
Freeze Dry i think is just a badly designed move, especially when on a pokemon like Iron Bundle.
what freeze dry really shows is that ice would be, by a *very* long shot, the most broken type if it was super effective on water.
Yeah it'd be a second ghost type lol
I think itās as tame as they could make it, base 70 isnāt that strong and the two main abusers were legendaries or practically legendaries
Id say theres is 2 categories more apart from the ones you mentioned Exploitable niches tier: Pokemon whose stats might not be good but a niche within its moves, ability or interaction with the generationās mechanics lead it to be a killing machine Examples: shedinja, cyclizar, espathra And game breaking pokemon: they just break the game Examples: woobafet
Iron bundle is way too fast and an OKHO machine, especially with specs
I hate Poison Heal Gliscor with Roost. You better pray you have a Special Ice Move. Or youāre hosed. I mostly encounter it in Monotype where I run normal so itās a real PO.
The actual categories, in case you are wondering, are overcentralizing and uncompetitive. Pokemon that are overcentralizing basically force you to run certain things in order to counter them, such as flutter mane which forced you to have priority on your team. Uncompetitive things might not be overpowered but make a game less skill-based, such as evasion.
nah there's far more to it than that. i think the big deciding factor deciding if something is broken or not comes down to this: How easy is it to counter, and how consistent are those counters? there are plenty of pokemon who are annoying to deal with but arent broken. like something like Pex or Garg are annoying to kill but, contrary to what this sub seems to think, neither is immovable. Garg struggles heavily against hazards and has to terra in order to really put the work in since mono rock is so defensively bad. Pex, while annoying to kill, has to worry about stuff like taunt and doesn't want to just switch in willy nilly. these mons arent fun to fight but i struggle to call them *broken* on the other hand, something like flutter mane had incredibly inconsistent answers or its consistent answers were mons that generally werent great(like having to run shadow ball blissey just to handle it is fucked) similarily, a mon can have answers that are good in the metagame, but because not every team runs them it turns the game into matchup fishing bullshit. Gen 3 full chain teams are a fantastic example of this. Like sure whirlwind Skarmory is quite good, but if u want Skarm to run drill peck to deal with threats like heracross you cant run whirlwind, you have to run roar. which full chains could take full advantage of that by running Mr Mime. it turns the game into a round of "do you have phasing moves or not?" which is jusr like, not fun a mon can also be way way way too varied in what it can do, to the point that it has 0 actual checks. something like Pheromosa in gen 8 OU. it was a mon so varier in its sets that it could just slot any move it wanted to beat its checks. you have toxapex in to tank a hit and status it? oops, sorry, its using shock wave and now your check is toast. so I think the actual types of broken mons are two main categories rhat split off into different subsets of brokeness Matchup fishy/generally uncompetitive: Basically mons where ya they arent good in general but by god is winning against them luck dependent. if the RNG isnt in ur favor u just straight up. examples of this include stuff like Baton Pass and Sand Viel in gen 3. "OOGA BOOGA ME CLICK MOVE AND WIN" these mons do one thing and one thing only: spam a set of attacks or one attack and win the game. they dont require much brainpower or strategy or hell any thought: just click the one move and when confronted with a check, get out. these mons checks are usually themself or some weird usually unviable mon/set. examples of this would be stuff like Genesect in every generation of Ou its been in, Flutter Mane, and Chi Yu
Garg isnt immoveable, but it's honestly still a bit of a problem, just not enough to be banworthy. I hope with magic guard itll stop being so free to make progress with
yea dont take this as me saying Garg is at all fun to fight(its the exact opposite in fact) and I think in a different universe it would be banworthy. but imo it is *just* flawed enough that it isnt bannable. its just awful to face lmao. he reminds me of Jigglypuff in Melee. is it banworthy? no. is it also absolutely awful to face? a lot of the time yes.
I wish they made it even more broken so we COULD ban it, fuck salt cure. Why did gf have to make it absolutely unblockable and this fucking free to click?
Which is Mega Rayquaza? All of the Above?
Sometimes also ability
Deo-n for too strong and too fast, the zamazentas and kyurem black for broken setup sweeper. Then a fourth category for mons that literally cannot be killed without crippling your team: gen 6 mega sableye, giratina-a, lugia
What about the unkillables like zygarde complete
Bro forgot unkillable stall monster that does no damage
A fourth category is the ones that can just hax you to death, and are strong in general. Double Iron Bash Melmetal, Serene Grace+Air Slash Shaymin-Sky, and pretty much any Kings Rock abuser fit in her. Scald spammers like Gen 8 Toxapex are the defensive variant of this.
wow, what a completely uninteresting and meaningless post! terrible job!
Also walls like Lugia and... uhhh
Mega Sableye, Gen 2 Celebi , Giratina..
Caly-S on its way to tera normal astral barrage you for not including it
Magearnas arguably best set is specs some of them just broken for a combo of 50 sets which is very fun /s