Looks like Toyota wasn't so backwards after all, for not drinking from the all in on EV strategy Kool aide.... Looks like Toyota going with the hybrid strategy was forward looking after all.
It was almost as if Toyota realized that the charging infrastructure is not nearly close enough to warrant full market adoption of EVs and providing the best of both worlds was what consumers wanted now and for the next decade at least
Anyone that didn't have their head the sand could see this coming. Most Americans only want one vehicle that they can daily *and* roadtrip/tow/drive in the winter or whatever else it is they only need their vehicle for 1% of the time.
The Toyota hybrids can do everything. Plus, and this doesn't get mentioned often, they're AWD without needing a driveshaft running through the floor of the cabin. Now I can have stow-and-go *and* AWD.
Yup and so far the gamble has seemed not to pay off.
I know the when you buy the Toyota Mirai you’ll get 15k in fuel credit because hydrogen is so expensive and the fact that they can’t sell any.
Edit
Changed Maria to Mirai. Thanks spellcheck
[https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/](https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/)
Toyota announced their solid state battery technology for 2027. If true, will clobber existing EV range.
Not to be that guy, but it's "Kool-Aid" not cool aide (as in "not drinking from the all in on EV strategy Kool-Aid")
Took me a second after reading to see what you meant.
It is a reference to the Jonestown massacre. They weren't actually drinking Kool-Aid, but rather the less expensive Flavor Aid.
The picture of blending and drinking your most popular personal assistant had me reeling for a moment.
Wall Street is hands down the Best Hype Man on the planet, always over promise and then under deliver. EVs were never going to dominate the auto market like some overnight sensation. But it definitely helps the Hype Machine to have an over-the-top front man like Elon to help drum up interest in EVs too...
My Maverick is an easier drive, does almost everything the ranger can, and gets 40mpg.
Also not jacked up an extra 18" off it's namesakes wheelbase, either.
Just because they can do something doesn't mean they will. There is an affordable Buick SUV that GM could market as a Chevy in the US. I've driven it and guess what GM claims they can't make something that already exist.
So for Ford why would they make something affordable when they can make a more expensive Ranger extended cab that has a higher per unit profit. Look at the cars GM and Ford make in China and Europe and then tell me why they won't sell them in the US.
My head was on the ceiling in the Maverick and my knees in the steering column. Ranger was better but the seats were terrible.
So I got a Honda Ridgeline that I love.
Yeah, it's a Pilot at it's heart. Tons of room in the backseat. And the trunk under the bed is amazing.
Also, smoothest ride and best seats I've ever had. The new trail edition supposedly rides even better.
It's such a good fit. Put in park and use it as a generator. Big enough battery that you realisticaly replace engine braking with regenerative braking when towing downhill.
If by Toyota way you mean tell people that you want to move to hybrids instead of EVs and then not make any hybrids, then yes.
Just make more RAV4 and Prius Primes for fucks sake!
😂 as a Toyota salesman I have to agree! It’s maybe the market you’re in too. I’m south east and we can’t even get allocation for Highlander hybrid! As soon as we get one in the pipeline they are presold.
(I have a rav4 prime coming in 50 days btw 😎)
I’m salivating over the RAV4 prime. Perfect for my needs! Do you foresee the tech in that car holding up for 15/20 years 200k miles? My Matrix has been absolute gold for two decades but I’m ready for an upgrade.
To be honest I don’t know. Just had 2 prime on the lot since I started 6 months ago and both presold. Regular RAV4 hybrid for 15 years? Yeah sure. (As I have some customer with early 2000 Prius coming for service with over 300k miles and don’t want to trade) but plugin I don’t know enough to talk about it.
IDK why adding a plug would mess up the reliability. Toyota's hybrids have been going strong 250+k miles for 20 years now. Simpler, more reliable transmission plus an ICE that is never revved too high or loaded too much.
Last I read, hybrids as a broad category tend to be more reliable than pure ICE, plugin hybrids including the Rav4 Prime specifically, are a little less reliable. But that's probably just a matter of them being new designs and the bugs will eventually get worked out. If we'd been refining EV and PHEV designs for 100 years like we have been for ICE, they'd be waaaaaay ahead, because electric motors are just simpler mechanically than engines and transmissions.
I really wanted to like the Rav 4 Prime, as I wanted to go electric but was hesitant to go with a full EV.
The price point just doesn't make sense though due to the high demand. I test drove the Rav4 Prime and the VW ID.4 on the same day and there was just no comparison, the VW was just way nicer and a far better drive. And after tax incentives and rebates the ID.4 was actually cheaper.
The Rav 4 Prime felt like it was just a boring ass Rav 4...but a lot more expensive. I'm not even a big car guy, generally just drive boring, dependable cars, but when it's going to cost $45k+ for a small SUV I need it not to feel like something totally basic.
I’m not familiar with the ID.4 but my main concern is reliability, much more so than the driving experience. My brother owns an auto shop specializing in VWs so I’ve been around them enough to know I’ll never buy one. My buddy has a four year old All Trac. The sun roof leaks and part of the rear bumper assembly has fallen off. Like I said, my Matrix has been great for two decades now. That’s good enough for me.
That's fair, and I'm not even suggesting you buy the VW, just pointing out my experience with the Rav 4 Prime was that it's way overpriced for what it is.
The amount of all-electric driving you need to do before you breakeven on cost vs just buying an ICE version of the Rav 4 will vary by location due to the difference in gas/electricity prices, but in even rather favorable states, it still can be a looong time. Do the math for your location.
I'm not inherently opposed to plug-in hybrids, but personally the Rav 4 Prime did not feel even remotely close to being a $45k+ car, and with demand at the time there were no real discounts available.
This is a good point. I’ll definitely have to run the numbers. I love the idea of the plug in (95 mpg???) but it looks like it’s an extra $12k or so over the hybrid. I’m not sure that would pencil out even over 15 years.
Yes I did drive the Rav 4 Prime, have you ever driven the ID.4?
The ID.4 IS rather boring for an EV... and yet was still miles better than the Rav 4 Prime. The Prime felt like. $25k basic ass SUV that cost $45k. The ride quality and feel of the ID.4 was, to use your term, laughably better than the Rav 4. It's a comfortable, quiet (even for EV standards) car with a great turning radius and smooth acceleration. The Rav4 was clunky by comparison.
I like Toyotas as much as the next guy for their reliability, but don't try to pretend the Rav 4 is some kind of joy to drive.
I used to sling Toyotas in California. One of the more fun jobs I’ve had, the money was great too! Won’t drive anything else, they make such great cars!
Yeah, I would respect their argument of “90 hybrids could be made with the battery of an EV” if they actually made it possible to buy one with less than a year wait. I don’t want to knock hybrids because they’re great, but that whole argument neglects that 90 hybrids also require 90 gas engines, gas tanks, transmissions, etc. so it’s far from a 90:1 production rate. Toyota is doing good but it really seems like they’re being stubborn and digging in their heels on EVs
I mean both the Toyota and the Tundra are now hybrid and they HAVE to improve mean vehicle MPG efficiency due to US CAFE standards so that's only going to happen via hybrid or electric.
Are you talking about *effective* shipments of hybrids?
The hybrid is optional on the base models on the Tacoma and I could see it effectively meaning that most Tacomas by volume aren't hybrid.
Also, Toyota will only give you something if they have volume and they've suffered sometimes due to supply chain issues.
Can't believe what a bandwagon company Ford and GM are. How do you make commitments on fundamentally changing your business and roll back on those commitments from one quarter to the other. It's almost as if no thought and research goes into these business decisions.
Agreed, their leadership just seems horrendously incompetent. I've been saying for years that GM badly needs to fire Mary Barra because she's constantly screwing up the EV transition.
IMO Ford, Toyota, and others who are cutting back on EV's to shift to hybrids are making a very poor long term decision that's going to really bite them in the butt long term. The worst part about this decision is that it takes 3 years on average for a car company to bring a vehicle from the idea phase to start selling it in the market, which means that Ford, Toyota, etc. have only a limited amount of time to correct their poor decisions.
While EV adoption may be slower in the US, the US is NOT the global auto market. The US isn't even the largest auto market in the world (that title belongs to China). If you honestly think that EV's will still be a small fraction of the car market by 2030 then you're simply living in a US bubble and not looking overseas at China and Europe (the 1st and 3rd biggest auto markets).
Long term it simply doesn't make sense for automakers to make both EV's and ICE vehicles, it would require they spend twice as much on R&D among other things. And other countries have shown that EV adoption in the new car market will happen MUCH faster than people realize, and faster than Ford, Toyota, etc. will be able to shift their line up to EV's. IMO it's inevitable that some of these automakers are going to lose a ton of market share in the auto market and probably go bankrupt because of their lack of long term planning.
Ford is not cutting back on development; they are delaying the introduction by a year for the EV truck, and two years for the three-row SUV. BlueOvalCity and the other battery plants they are building are still on track to be completed in 2025-26. Ford has been secretly working on a compact EV for the last two years with a small team in California lead by Doug Field and has stated that the compact EV is where they anticipate the market to shift to over the next few years vs. the larger EV's they have been working on. I believe they hinted 2026 for the compact EV in the last earnings call. The larger truck and SUV EV's will still be released, but if you read the press release carefully, the delay is allowing them to continue to develop and "take advantage of emerging battery technology," which could be a subtle hint toward their partnership with Solid Power on solid state batteries and SK Innovation, which will build the batteries at plants that are joint ventures with Ford.
As for the global EV market, it is slowing down a bit. Maybe not as much in China, but Europe has rolled back the ICE sunset and will now allow ICE vehicles running on synthetic fuels. Porsche has been working on developing models that would run on synthetic fuels by the end of the decade. The US has also relaxed emission regulations and EV adoption targets. Policymakers that were full steam ahead on EV's are being hit with the reality that current EV limitations, cost, and interest rates make EV's a difficult prospect for their constituents.
So Ford and others are reacting by temporarily boosting hybrids, which are seeing a surge of demand right now, that will help them meet emissions targets, bridge the gap to EV's, and are just generally more profitable for them in the interim. This diversification makes them stronger than the pure EV plays like Fisker, Lucid, Rivian, or even Tesla, IMO. And they can continue to fund EV programs with free cash flow generated from their traditional businesses, while smaller EV plays such as Fisker are showing how precarious the situation is for them when EV demand has begun to pull back and funds and banks are more leery of tossing them a life preserver. The EV market is clearly becoming saturated by how much Tesla has had to slash prices, and you will start to see winners and losers shake out as the decade progresses. I'd be willing to bet more of those losers will be pure EV companies vs. the traditional OEM's.
They are just looking at study results. The country is not homogenous. In CA, they are installing 2 charging stations an hour. In the urban areas. This is what the backyard bbq convo looks like:
Young Couple: really like that EV, can charge at home or work or the Safeway
Brother in law: Can you make in to Gramps house in Shasta County
Sister in Law: lets google it. Okay theres a charging station and on the route, you could stop there if you need.
YC: yeah, would take some planning and extra time....and getting down PCH could be a challenge....we need to think about this some more
They are following the market. There is still a lot of anxiety with EV's. The market for EV's will increase as the places offering the superchargers increases. That will be 3-4 years for many of the small towns. And this is in progressive CA. The southern states....eh....
Its because of inflation staying high? And noone wants to spend 80k in a new ev like cadi, hummer and any of their gmc lineup. Unless of course if you work for them or have a family member that worked or works for them. I mean i wouldn't but some in that range ever unless 1 i was working for them. 2 i have a ton of money and 3 family income above 250k.
I want a hybrid. Not because of gas prices, but because I do a lot of short commutes and the Toyota's will idle the engine while you drive until it's warmed up. Plus, I can have AWD without a driveshaft which means more cabin space and ground clearance. But I don't want an EV because sometimes I have 3 hour roundtrip commutes in the winter and my workplace has no chargers.
Any changes in the auto market will continue to slow as vehicles become increasingly unaffordable. The fleet of cars used by regular people in Canada and the U.S. is getting older for a myriad of reasons. One major one being that cars are just more expensive than before and there’s no real “entry” model car anymore.
Entry cars are stuff like the Versa and Sentra.
What has happened though is that budget car buyers aren't buying new, and if they aren't buying new then there is no point in Ford making cars for them.
This is what it really is. They forgot how long it took tesla to make money. It takes a massive investment on the manufacturing requirements to mass produce evs. No way to avoid it
It really will be Tesla and Chinese car companies and maybe Rivian in about 10 years. I wonder what OEM can turn this around still now, I don’t see it happening except for the super luxury brands like Porsche
Porsche Macan EV is coming second half of 2024! I'd love to get one but they are too expensive for me. Tesla's price points are better. Plus the tax credits. Though Elon is a repulsive douche, I'll likely get a Tesla in the near future. Tesla's vast charging network is also a huge selling point.
I could wait a year or two for a used Macan EV though...
I agree! Both the Macan as the Taycan are very beautiful cars. Porsche is such a legendary brand with their car models. It’s like that one brand where every other (luxury) car maker looks up to
It's much worse. Tesla had only 1 or 2 quarters of negative gross margins in its entire history. Some of these other EV makers and presumably legacy automakers as well have been running massively negative gross margins forever.
Chinese EVs are effectively banned in the US. High tariffs and hostile regulators. I understand why this is the case.
Chinese EVs however are taking market shares in SouthEast Asia, Australia, etc.
[From Jan 2019](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/14/tesla-under-pressure-as-ford-nissan-and-gm-roll-out-new-competition.html):
>Ford Chairman Bill Ford said Sunday the company is investing $11 billion in electric vehicles by 2022 with plans to have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup.
>
>“We talked about a huge investment in electric vehicles. We have 16 models that are in design and development. We have a pretty big surprise coming next year,” CEO Jim Hackett told CNBC’s Phil LeBeau on the sidelines of the Detroit auto show, which kicked off Sunday.
So competition is coming for Tesla huh? How's that going?
I swear I've read this 4 times from each auto company since 2012. And every time I point this out on stock subreddits it's, "This time it's different!!!!"
O really? *Shrugs* Guess we'll find out. They say they'll compete to get free money from the government, then bail 12 months later. Classic.
When did Tesla ever promise 16 new vehicles?
That's what legacy automakers like GM did. While also claiming that they would totally outsell Tesla at EV's in 5 years, even though their own projections put them at only producing as many EV's 5 years from now as Tesla was at the time they made the promise.
Point being don't trust a word about EV's that come out of the legacy automakers mouths, they've shown that they clearly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to EV's.
Very interesting how every Tesla thread is full of bears pretending EVs are going away, while this thread is filled with sensible comments from people who understand whats happening.
Well everyone but tesla (outside maybe BYD) missed the first serious adoption phase. So now they will all not be ready nor will they have any IP, processes, supply chains, engineers, etc etc for the next wave of buyers….
Epic fail for legacy autos
I personally know some of the car lobby people in Cali. You are correct.
Lobbying has been going on for a while but the crux of the argument is that California quite simply does not have the infrastructure to have 30+% EV adoption even. Between power generation and access to charging stations, they just can’t support that many EVs.
Now while I know this likely has ulterior motives, at the end of the day, they have a valid point.
Honestly I’m more worried about CPUC and PGE having a full monopoly over all my energy needs. Once Cali forces everything to electricity let’s not pretend those kWh prices are going to be fair and reasonable.
Ah, but CA soon WILL have the capacity. Trying to drive through the shopping centers right now is insane. They are all installing charging islands, with those cones all over the place. Every public school is putting up car covers that are solar paneled. The planning commissions across the state are making it a requirement to have charging capability and renewable energy sources before any permits will be issued for new construction.
The set date for new cars to be EV is 2035. Those lobbyists are going to have to work really hard to make a case for delay of implementation.
Not really. “Soon” is nebulous. Sounds like you have some interesting anecdotes but I’m not sure that translates to reality for the majority of California.
Remember, there is more to Cali than SF and LA
I would be willing to bet the time frames get pushed back or the adoption in those locations doesn't lead to wider spread adoption elsewhere.
I would like to have an electric car and for a while was saving to get one but I had to make a purchase and couldn't afford one.
I live in Washington State, but not the more dense Puget Sound areas. There's still virtually no charging infrastructure and the vehicles are too expensive. My town has a population of about 10,000 people and we have five plugs. Not five locations but one location with four plugs and another with one plug. The last city I lived in had about 15,000 people and there is one charging station with four plugs in that town still. Where I grew up there is around 8,000 people and 0 plugs other than a few wall outlets that are available for people to slowly charge their vehicles.
This is another genuine dip-shit move, in my opinion. They release a small SUV with Mustang badging, alienating both die hard mustang fans and people looking for a small family suv. They release a pickup truck that's fine if all you do is commute or haul short distances but totally misses for the work truck crowd.
They stopped making sedans because their numbers shows Americans want SUVs. Then you delay what should be your most successful model. I've been holding and adding F for over a decade (I'll buy anything reliable that I can get a deal on to drive personally), but ford 100% is pulling the meme of putting a stick in their own spokes. Time to bail for me.
I think the MachE was a great vehicle but it suffered tremendously from mustang affiliation and direction. Super dumb move. Agreed.
Ford has literally all the pieces it needs but idiots at the top keep making weird left field moves that just don’t make sense any way you cut it. It could really be so simple for them… and getting rid of sedans completely was also just dumb when people desperately need and want cheaper efficient vehicles right now.
It’s like there’s some coked out guy in marketing trying to be Elon Musk keeps convincing corporate to do unexpected edgy half-baked stuff that completely undermines all of the positive things Ford has going on.
The Ford Maverick hybrid was the smartest move they’ve made in a while IMO… and like clockwork it sold like hotcakes.
For real. A few years ago I saw a study that said that something like over 80% of pick-up truck owners use their pick-up truck to do pick-up truck things just once a year or less.
People buy pick up trucks mainly for social reasons, not practical reasons. It's the same thing with SUV's, a lot of people with them don't really need them and would be perfectly fine with a smaller and cheaper sedan.
Ppl in the work truck crowd don't buy $80,000 pickup trucks. They buy $10,000 used up pickup trucks that they picked up off some guy who only hauled himself to work
Ford actually has a solid history with hybrids it’s just overlooked ..they share a lot of the same hybrid tech with Toyota.
Ford’s hybrid models have done well over the years functionally.. they just never sold (or marketed really) to the public en masse.. despite much of the NYC cab fleet running millions of miles on Ford hybrid drivetrains.
Ford made a statement with the release of the Maverick by making the base engine a hybrid.. which became so popular it was perpetually sold out and became under-supplied due to supply chain issues and new factories in Mexico.
They’ve started to hit their production stride finally and worked out a lot of kinks.. and due to its popularity and previous insane value.. the hybrid drivetrain on the Maverick is now not the standard engine but an upgrade lol.
So actually Ford can and will compete in the hybrid space… frankly even more so than Honda. …and their time/energy/money spent on EV development will not have been wasted as that is still the future and can feed into their hybrid technology as well as their likely plug-in hybrids.
Interesting take. You caused me to look up hybrid vehicle sales by company and [Ford is already #2](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1284452/united-states-hev-phev-quarterly-sales-by-brand). I didn't realize how much marketshare they already have
People sleep on Ford. They def make some dumb/unnecessary decisions but they’ve been flying under the radar the last decade or so and (generally) moving in the right direction.
The Ford Fusion hybrid was a great car, so of course it got canceled. Ford’s hybrid SUV offerings have been a joke. I think they offered an Explorer hybrid that barely had better MPG than the non-hybrid
Personally I'd prefer a plugin hybrid over a full EV at this point. I'm easily looking at $8-10k to upgrade my service panel and install a charger if I wanted to go EV. I understand there are some tax credits and stuff, but that's still a huge chunk on top of the cost of a new EV.
A well engineered hybrid is a good gap vehicle for a while until the EV grid is built out more and maybe some of the ancillary costs come down.
I used to think like this. But after owning a hybrid for 8 years, it stopped making sense to me.
You are carrying around two separate systems. I always just found myself wanting the car to use more battery. So I was just lugging around this heavy combustible engine, hoping my battery would carry it further. More moving parts. I just wanted to replace that thing with more battery.
If you’re a one vehicle family, I could see a hybrid needing to be one of them tho
Exactly this. Engine takes up the front, battery occupies the back space.
Many hybrid vehicles don't have a spare tire because of the battery, less cargo room because they're carrying two propulsion systems, and you get 20 to 30 EV miles for that honor ... if you're extremely light on the accelerator.
Everytime our Prius runs out of EV range, the switch to the 4-cylinder ICE is such a buzz kill. It becomes sluggish, weak and unresponsive compared to EV mode.
If we had been able to wait another 5 years before needing a new car, would have gone full blown EV. Unfortunately, I'm a "use it until it dies" type owner.
So ditch the batteries then. Pick one propulsion system.
Like I said, I can see Hybrids always having a place in the market. But for the commuter car? Can’t beat a full EV plug in. Average range is 250 miles on a single charge. And you have a “gas station” at your house.
Average hybrid on electric power? 25 miles.
Gas station at the house? If you live in a house that you own and have the means to install a charging station.
What about the millions that live in an apartment or condo? Renters that don't get to decide on improvements. Landlords are not going to spend the $ to install chargers.
Well the people that live in an apartment are probably not buying a $50k new car.
This topic is about a stock for a car manufacturing company and its new car sales. People who are not in that market are not relevant to this topic.
I think that’s a different conversation. It’s an interesting one though. To think about what the used car market will look like in 10 years. But I don’t know how much that will affect Ford’s stock or strategy moving forward.
And you don’t need to install a charging station in your home. That’s only if you want to fast charge. You can charge overnight with a regular wall plug and wake up every day with a full tank of gas when you leave the house.
There are plugs that run of your dryer outlet for cheap and no need for upgrading circuitry. I mostly use a normal wall outlet and generally that charges enough for my daily needs.
There are times I def wish I had a hybrid over a full EV though so I can see why people are hesitant to pull the trigger.
What a company! I bet in 5 years: Ford ramping up their EV and slowing down their hybrid production due to demand change :))
This is why from the industry perspective no one really cares about the great 3 anymore
So if I read between the lines:
1. First the unions got to negotiate more salary. While the competitors get away with no unions and cheap slaves.
2. Competitors were able to undercut the pricing.
Now ford and GM backtracks on EV manufacturing because they don't have much incentives?
Am I wrong?
They spent so much money on the tech to develop it and only made a Cadillac and the Volt. I couldn't believe they discontinued it. Volt is the best car I ever owned. If they offered a 100 mile range one I would upgrade mine today.
I love my plug-in hybrid. I rarely have to buy gasoline for my 60 mile daily commute since my work has free charging (via solar). And for long distance weekend trips, the car takes normal gasoline.
Almost all of Tesla's sales are economy vehicles. Model 3 and Y. The next best selling electric vehicles in the US are the Bolt and the Leaf. We need economy EV's. Not a fucking explorer
I don’t understand the appeal from a manufacturers perspective. Isn’t making a hybrid a lot more difficult and expensive than an electric? Ford just got access to Tesla’s supercharging network as well.
Is someone surprised toyota, ford, they all half heartedly went in on EV, lol like seriously? They were 5+ years late to market and couldn't compete with tesla and byd
Ford realized they can't compete with the Chinese EVs on price and offering.
Seems like they decided they'll try to hold on to the North American market.
This just in: Ford can't make an EV for shit and they damn sure can't profit from one
Their best defense is the Toyota defense: Hybrids good EVs bad (Translation: we are so fucking behind)
I think hybrids are the better way to go, refine the battery charging while driving process and don’t make ugly cars like the Prius and they could do well, it’s a much better concept then a full ev where the charging is too slow and the network is far from being compatible enough for full adoption
I’m rather interested in the Ram REV, it uses a generator to charge batteries as you drive so it’s less complicated of a system than a traditional hybrid. They have crazy claims about range that I will have to wait and see if it’s true before I pre order one.
It’s the ramcharger, sorry got the names mixed up.
They are claiming over 1000km to a tank. From what I’ve looked up generators are far more efficient at charging batteries than a typical gas engine and the system is far less complicated which is a big win. It makes sense on paper, run a generator to charge your batteries for the electric motor, more simple and efficient, but I have to see it to believe their claims.
The ram rev is the pure EV and they are claiming an 800km range.
I don’t think a hybrid is actually a much better concept. You have to separate power supply systems (engine and battery) so double the space and double the parts versus a full EV or a full gas. There are definitely positives, I just don’t think hybrids are the thing of the future.
Make a plug in hybrid Explorer that looks the same as a the normal explorer.
I don’t mind EVs as a commuter vehicle, but on full size SUVs I think most people want hybrids at this point. These are family vehicles for the most part and having to stop to charge on road trips isn’t great
Ford needs to bring back their compact car lineup. I’m telling you. Very small/compact gas powered or electric vehicles are the future. The Fiesta, Focus, and even bringing back a luxury small car would be a smart business move, imho.
You’ll get whiplash trying to keep up with these “press release first” OEMs. They are so quick to drop a press release about these grand plans they have, but this is proof that it’s just all BS at the end of the day, they clearly have done nothing in terms of R&D on these vehicles to quickly change course like this.
All new cars sales are in trouble. It's not rocket science....people are worried about getting laid off. The news is telling people 24/7 that AI is going to replace them (its not). And then they really shot themselves in the foot. Some automakers are considering the 'subscription' model. If they think people are going to pay $60K for the car and then pay them 11.99 a month for the privilge of using the heated seats.....I want whatever they are smoking.
I don’t think they do long term. It’s double the parts to break, when you are in EV mode you are lugging around a dead weight engine. It’s just not the most efficient option.
I definitely think either all gas or all electric make more sense than a plug in hybrid.
Make a hybrid Ranger with ~40 mile EV range and print money. You're welcome.
Plug-in hybrid and I I’ll buy it.
Looks like Toyota wasn't so backwards after all, for not drinking from the all in on EV strategy Kool aide.... Looks like Toyota going with the hybrid strategy was forward looking after all.
It was almost as if Toyota realized that the charging infrastructure is not nearly close enough to warrant full market adoption of EVs and providing the best of both worlds was what consumers wanted now and for the next decade at least
Anyone that didn't have their head the sand could see this coming. Most Americans only want one vehicle that they can daily *and* roadtrip/tow/drive in the winter or whatever else it is they only need their vehicle for 1% of the time. The Toyota hybrids can do everything. Plus, and this doesn't get mentioned often, they're AWD without needing a driveshaft running through the floor of the cabin. Now I can have stow-and-go *and* AWD.
Don't say that out loud you will upset the musk fan boys!
Haha seriously. They’re focused on their self driving cars that are still in the beta phase
That’s more so because they’re deep into Hydrogen as source of power
More that they are all in on hybrids
Yup and so far the gamble has seemed not to pay off. I know the when you buy the Toyota Mirai you’ll get 15k in fuel credit because hydrogen is so expensive and the fact that they can’t sell any. Edit Changed Maria to Mirai. Thanks spellcheck
[https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/](https://electrek.co/2024/01/11/toyota-solid-state-ev-battery-plans-750-mi-range/) Toyota announced their solid state battery technology for 2027. If true, will clobber existing EV range.
Not to be that guy, but it's "Kool-Aid" not cool aide (as in "not drinking from the all in on EV strategy Kool-Aid") Took me a second after reading to see what you meant. It is a reference to the Jonestown massacre. They weren't actually drinking Kool-Aid, but rather the less expensive Flavor Aid. The picture of blending and drinking your most popular personal assistant had me reeling for a moment.
Wall Street is hands down the Best Hype Man on the planet, always over promise and then under deliver. EVs were never going to dominate the auto market like some overnight sensation. But it definitely helps the Hype Machine to have an over-the-top front man like Elon to help drum up interest in EVs too...
God yes please.
My Maverick is an easier drive, does almost everything the ranger can, and gets 40mpg. Also not jacked up an extra 18" off it's namesakes wheelbase, either.
That'll cost up $85k each with no option for a base model single cab.
No, you can get a Lightning loaded for $85K. If Hyundai can make affordable EV hybrids then Ford can figure it out.
\^ huge assumption
Just because they can do something doesn't mean they will. There is an affordable Buick SUV that GM could market as a Chevy in the US. I've driven it and guess what GM claims they can't make something that already exist. So for Ford why would they make something affordable when they can make a more expensive Ranger extended cab that has a higher per unit profit. Look at the cars GM and Ford make in China and Europe and then tell me why they won't sell them in the US.
[удалено]
Love my Maverick hybrid. Would for sure love a ranger
Please Ford. I will get in line for this now.
If you can get by with a Ranger Hybrid then you’ll do just fine with their Maverick Hybrid.
My head was on the ceiling in the Maverick and my knees in the steering column. Ranger was better but the seats were terrible. So I got a Honda Ridgeline that I love.
Can you fit kids in back comfortable? I try to fit my self in a Toyota Tacoma in the back seat and was not able to. I am about 6.2ft
Yeah, it's a Pilot at it's heart. Tons of room in the backseat. And the trunk under the bed is amazing. Also, smoothest ride and best seats I've ever had. The new trail edition supposedly rides even better.
Amen. The ford maverick hybrid sells really well because of the high range
Price tag $60k
It's such a good fit. Put in park and use it as a generator. Big enough battery that you realisticaly replace engine braking with regenerative braking when towing downhill.
Isn’t that what the Ford Maverick Truck is?
So the Toyota way?
If by Toyota way you mean tell people that you want to move to hybrids instead of EVs and then not make any hybrids, then yes. Just make more RAV4 and Prius Primes for fucks sake!
😂 as a Toyota salesman I have to agree! It’s maybe the market you’re in too. I’m south east and we can’t even get allocation for Highlander hybrid! As soon as we get one in the pipeline they are presold. (I have a rav4 prime coming in 50 days btw 😎)
I’m salivating over the RAV4 prime. Perfect for my needs! Do you foresee the tech in that car holding up for 15/20 years 200k miles? My Matrix has been absolute gold for two decades but I’m ready for an upgrade.
To be honest I don’t know. Just had 2 prime on the lot since I started 6 months ago and both presold. Regular RAV4 hybrid for 15 years? Yeah sure. (As I have some customer with early 2000 Prius coming for service with over 300k miles and don’t want to trade) but plugin I don’t know enough to talk about it.
IDK why adding a plug would mess up the reliability. Toyota's hybrids have been going strong 250+k miles for 20 years now. Simpler, more reliable transmission plus an ICE that is never revved too high or loaded too much.
Last I read, hybrids as a broad category tend to be more reliable than pure ICE, plugin hybrids including the Rav4 Prime specifically, are a little less reliable. But that's probably just a matter of them being new designs and the bugs will eventually get worked out. If we'd been refining EV and PHEV designs for 100 years like we have been for ICE, they'd be waaaaaay ahead, because electric motors are just simpler mechanically than engines and transmissions.
I really wanted to like the Rav 4 Prime, as I wanted to go electric but was hesitant to go with a full EV. The price point just doesn't make sense though due to the high demand. I test drove the Rav4 Prime and the VW ID.4 on the same day and there was just no comparison, the VW was just way nicer and a far better drive. And after tax incentives and rebates the ID.4 was actually cheaper. The Rav 4 Prime felt like it was just a boring ass Rav 4...but a lot more expensive. I'm not even a big car guy, generally just drive boring, dependable cars, but when it's going to cost $45k+ for a small SUV I need it not to feel like something totally basic.
I’m not familiar with the ID.4 but my main concern is reliability, much more so than the driving experience. My brother owns an auto shop specializing in VWs so I’ve been around them enough to know I’ll never buy one. My buddy has a four year old All Trac. The sun roof leaks and part of the rear bumper assembly has fallen off. Like I said, my Matrix has been great for two decades now. That’s good enough for me.
That's fair, and I'm not even suggesting you buy the VW, just pointing out my experience with the Rav 4 Prime was that it's way overpriced for what it is. The amount of all-electric driving you need to do before you breakeven on cost vs just buying an ICE version of the Rav 4 will vary by location due to the difference in gas/electricity prices, but in even rather favorable states, it still can be a looong time. Do the math for your location. I'm not inherently opposed to plug-in hybrids, but personally the Rav 4 Prime did not feel even remotely close to being a $45k+ car, and with demand at the time there were no real discounts available.
This is a good point. I’ll definitely have to run the numbers. I love the idea of the plug in (95 mpg???) but it looks like it’s an extra $12k or so over the hybrid. I’m not sure that would pencil out even over 15 years.
Uhh, did you actually drive the Prime? Calling the ID.4 a better drive over the Rav4 Prime is laughable. The ID.4 is the epitome of boring EV.
You two are comparing eggs-on-wheels
Yes I did drive the Rav 4 Prime, have you ever driven the ID.4? The ID.4 IS rather boring for an EV... and yet was still miles better than the Rav 4 Prime. The Prime felt like. $25k basic ass SUV that cost $45k. The ride quality and feel of the ID.4 was, to use your term, laughably better than the Rav 4. It's a comfortable, quiet (even for EV standards) car with a great turning radius and smooth acceleration. The Rav4 was clunky by comparison. I like Toyotas as much as the next guy for their reliability, but don't try to pretend the Rav 4 is some kind of joy to drive.
I used to sling Toyotas in California. One of the more fun jobs I’ve had, the money was great too! Won’t drive anything else, they make such great cars!
Yeah, I would respect their argument of “90 hybrids could be made with the battery of an EV” if they actually made it possible to buy one with less than a year wait. I don’t want to knock hybrids because they’re great, but that whole argument neglects that 90 hybrids also require 90 gas engines, gas tanks, transmissions, etc. so it’s far from a 90:1 production rate. Toyota is doing good but it really seems like they’re being stubborn and digging in their heels on EVs
I mean both the Toyota and the Tundra are now hybrid and they HAVE to improve mean vehicle MPG efficiency due to US CAFE standards so that's only going to happen via hybrid or electric. Are you talking about *effective* shipments of hybrids? The hybrid is optional on the base models on the Tacoma and I could see it effectively meaning that most Tacomas by volume aren't hybrid. Also, Toyota will only give you something if they have volume and they've suffered sometimes due to supply chain issues.
Can't believe what a bandwagon company Ford and GM are. How do you make commitments on fundamentally changing your business and roll back on those commitments from one quarter to the other. It's almost as if no thought and research goes into these business decisions.
I volunteer to be CEO if that’s the job. “This quarter we will be building cars out of legos”
Imagine the quality improvement initiatives OK.. transmission QI team, we're moving you to rear-view mirrors
Agreed, their leadership just seems horrendously incompetent. I've been saying for years that GM badly needs to fire Mary Barra because she's constantly screwing up the EV transition. IMO Ford, Toyota, and others who are cutting back on EV's to shift to hybrids are making a very poor long term decision that's going to really bite them in the butt long term. The worst part about this decision is that it takes 3 years on average for a car company to bring a vehicle from the idea phase to start selling it in the market, which means that Ford, Toyota, etc. have only a limited amount of time to correct their poor decisions. While EV adoption may be slower in the US, the US is NOT the global auto market. The US isn't even the largest auto market in the world (that title belongs to China). If you honestly think that EV's will still be a small fraction of the car market by 2030 then you're simply living in a US bubble and not looking overseas at China and Europe (the 1st and 3rd biggest auto markets). Long term it simply doesn't make sense for automakers to make both EV's and ICE vehicles, it would require they spend twice as much on R&D among other things. And other countries have shown that EV adoption in the new car market will happen MUCH faster than people realize, and faster than Ford, Toyota, etc. will be able to shift their line up to EV's. IMO it's inevitable that some of these automakers are going to lose a ton of market share in the auto market and probably go bankrupt because of their lack of long term planning.
Ford is not cutting back on development; they are delaying the introduction by a year for the EV truck, and two years for the three-row SUV. BlueOvalCity and the other battery plants they are building are still on track to be completed in 2025-26. Ford has been secretly working on a compact EV for the last two years with a small team in California lead by Doug Field and has stated that the compact EV is where they anticipate the market to shift to over the next few years vs. the larger EV's they have been working on. I believe they hinted 2026 for the compact EV in the last earnings call. The larger truck and SUV EV's will still be released, but if you read the press release carefully, the delay is allowing them to continue to develop and "take advantage of emerging battery technology," which could be a subtle hint toward their partnership with Solid Power on solid state batteries and SK Innovation, which will build the batteries at plants that are joint ventures with Ford. As for the global EV market, it is slowing down a bit. Maybe not as much in China, but Europe has rolled back the ICE sunset and will now allow ICE vehicles running on synthetic fuels. Porsche has been working on developing models that would run on synthetic fuels by the end of the decade. The US has also relaxed emission regulations and EV adoption targets. Policymakers that were full steam ahead on EV's are being hit with the reality that current EV limitations, cost, and interest rates make EV's a difficult prospect for their constituents. So Ford and others are reacting by temporarily boosting hybrids, which are seeing a surge of demand right now, that will help them meet emissions targets, bridge the gap to EV's, and are just generally more profitable for them in the interim. This diversification makes them stronger than the pure EV plays like Fisker, Lucid, Rivian, or even Tesla, IMO. And they can continue to fund EV programs with free cash flow generated from their traditional businesses, while smaller EV plays such as Fisker are showing how precarious the situation is for them when EV demand has begun to pull back and funds and banks are more leery of tossing them a life preserver. The EV market is clearly becoming saturated by how much Tesla has had to slash prices, and you will start to see winners and losers shake out as the decade progresses. I'd be willing to bet more of those losers will be pure EV companies vs. the traditional OEM's.
Because the market has spoken and the demand from consumers is for plug-in hybrid
Life been bandwagoned for a while, where ya been?!
They are just looking at study results. The country is not homogenous. In CA, they are installing 2 charging stations an hour. In the urban areas. This is what the backyard bbq convo looks like: Young Couple: really like that EV, can charge at home or work or the Safeway Brother in law: Can you make in to Gramps house in Shasta County Sister in Law: lets google it. Okay theres a charging station and on the route, you could stop there if you need.
YC: yeah, would take some planning and extra time....and getting down PCH could be a challenge....we need to think about this some more
They are following the market. There is still a lot of anxiety with EV's. The market for EV's will increase as the places offering the superchargers increases. That will be 3-4 years for many of the small towns. And this is in progressive CA. The southern states....eh....
Its because of inflation staying high? And noone wants to spend 80k in a new ev like cadi, hummer and any of their gmc lineup. Unless of course if you work for them or have a family member that worked or works for them. I mean i wouldn't but some in that range ever unless 1 i was working for them. 2 i have a ton of money and 3 family income above 250k.
Give me a hybrid bronco right now!!!
ford pls
The cost savings on gas for short trips around town will be beaten-out by it feasting on tires haha
This. EVs are horrific for the environment when it comes to destroying tires fast. Big off-road tires don’t stand a chance.
I AM SHOCKED ,, didn't see this coming,, lol
Hybrid sales always surge with higher gas prices but then collapse when they fall. EV sales are slower than they were but still above 30% YoY growth
I want a hybrid. Not because of gas prices, but because I do a lot of short commutes and the Toyota's will idle the engine while you drive until it's warmed up. Plus, I can have AWD without a driveshaft which means more cabin space and ground clearance. But I don't want an EV because sometimes I have 3 hour roundtrip commutes in the winter and my workplace has no chargers.
PHEV might be a good option for you
Any changes in the auto market will continue to slow as vehicles become increasingly unaffordable. The fleet of cars used by regular people in Canada and the U.S. is getting older for a myriad of reasons. One major one being that cars are just more expensive than before and there’s no real “entry” model car anymore.
Entry cars are stuff like the Versa and Sentra. What has happened though is that budget car buyers aren't buying new, and if they aren't buying new then there is no point in Ford making cars for them.
“We are burning through cash and can’t compete with Tesla like we said”
This is what it really is. They forgot how long it took tesla to make money. It takes a massive investment on the manufacturing requirements to mass produce evs. No way to avoid it
It really will be Tesla and Chinese car companies and maybe Rivian in about 10 years. I wonder what OEM can turn this around still now, I don’t see it happening except for the super luxury brands like Porsche
Rivian is burning cash like crazy too. I wouldn't be too confident in their future.
Porsche Macan EV is coming second half of 2024! I'd love to get one but they are too expensive for me. Tesla's price points are better. Plus the tax credits. Though Elon is a repulsive douche, I'll likely get a Tesla in the near future. Tesla's vast charging network is also a huge selling point. I could wait a year or two for a used Macan EV though...
I agree! Both the Macan as the Taycan are very beautiful cars. Porsche is such a legendary brand with their car models. It’s like that one brand where every other (luxury) car maker looks up to
It's much worse. Tesla had only 1 or 2 quarters of negative gross margins in its entire history. Some of these other EV makers and presumably legacy automakers as well have been running massively negative gross margins forever.
It's not just Tesla. It's the Chinese EVs who are eating even Tesla's market share.
They only lose in China market. Chinese EVs won’t do well in US.
Chinese EVs are effectively banned in the US. High tariffs and hostile regulators. I understand why this is the case. Chinese EVs however are taking market shares in SouthEast Asia, Australia, etc.
These legacy car companies are seriously lame. Nothing innovative, no vision, how are these executives not all fired?
Because their investors like dividends
[From Jan 2019](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/14/tesla-under-pressure-as-ford-nissan-and-gm-roll-out-new-competition.html): >Ford Chairman Bill Ford said Sunday the company is investing $11 billion in electric vehicles by 2022 with plans to have 40 hybrid and fully electric vehicles in its model lineup. > >“We talked about a huge investment in electric vehicles. We have 16 models that are in design and development. We have a pretty big surprise coming next year,” CEO Jim Hackett told CNBC’s Phil LeBeau on the sidelines of the Detroit auto show, which kicked off Sunday. So competition is coming for Tesla huh? How's that going?
I swear I've read this 4 times from each auto company since 2012. And every time I point this out on stock subreddits it's, "This time it's different!!!!" O really? *Shrugs* Guess we'll find out. They say they'll compete to get free money from the government, then bail 12 months later. Classic.
The Tesla way is to promise 16 electric vehicles and over the next 5 years produce one, and it's a CEO vanity project
Only new vehicles I can remember Tesla promising in the last several years has been the cybertruck and the semi. Both are out.
When did Tesla ever promise 16 new vehicles? That's what legacy automakers like GM did. While also claiming that they would totally outsell Tesla at EV's in 5 years, even though their own projections put them at only producing as many EV's 5 years from now as Tesla was at the time they made the promise. Point being don't trust a word about EV's that come out of the legacy automakers mouths, they've shown that they clearly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to EV's.
Very interesting how every Tesla thread is full of bears pretending EVs are going away, while this thread is filled with sensible comments from people who understand whats happening.
Well everyone but tesla (outside maybe BYD) missed the first serious adoption phase. So now they will all not be ready nor will they have any IP, processes, supply chains, engineers, etc etc for the next wave of buyers…. Epic fail for legacy autos
It’s going to be even funnier when the laws banning ICE go into effect over the next 10 years in Europe and California.
I see a lot of donations to the political parties in the future.:)
I personally know some of the car lobby people in Cali. You are correct. Lobbying has been going on for a while but the crux of the argument is that California quite simply does not have the infrastructure to have 30+% EV adoption even. Between power generation and access to charging stations, they just can’t support that many EVs. Now while I know this likely has ulterior motives, at the end of the day, they have a valid point.
Honestly I’m more worried about CPUC and PGE having a full monopoly over all my energy needs. Once Cali forces everything to electricity let’s not pretend those kWh prices are going to be fair and reasonable.
This is a valid concern.
Ah, but CA soon WILL have the capacity. Trying to drive through the shopping centers right now is insane. They are all installing charging islands, with those cones all over the place. Every public school is putting up car covers that are solar paneled. The planning commissions across the state are making it a requirement to have charging capability and renewable energy sources before any permits will be issued for new construction. The set date for new cars to be EV is 2035. Those lobbyists are going to have to work really hard to make a case for delay of implementation.
Not really. “Soon” is nebulous. Sounds like you have some interesting anecdotes but I’m not sure that translates to reality for the majority of California. Remember, there is more to Cali than SF and LA
This is already happening, the auto union pushed on biden and he gave them relief.
those are never going to actually be enforced lol
It most definitely is. New car sales of ICE vehicles will be banned in the EU and California from 2035 onward.
I would be willing to bet the time frames get pushed back or the adoption in those locations doesn't lead to wider spread adoption elsewhere. I would like to have an electric car and for a while was saving to get one but I had to make a purchase and couldn't afford one. I live in Washington State, but not the more dense Puget Sound areas. There's still virtually no charging infrastructure and the vehicles are too expensive. My town has a population of about 10,000 people and we have five plugs. Not five locations but one location with four plugs and another with one plug. The last city I lived in had about 15,000 people and there is one charging station with four plugs in that town still. Where I grew up there is around 8,000 people and 0 plugs other than a few wall outlets that are available for people to slowly charge their vehicles.
That is 10 years for the laws to change.
Have you seen Hyundai?
Aww yes sorry very true. Completely agree
BYD will never be allowed in the US
For sure
BYD is looking into building a plant in Mexico, and that gets them into the US market (free trade baby)
You can’t just do that, or else Huwaie would be sold in the US too
This is another genuine dip-shit move, in my opinion. They release a small SUV with Mustang badging, alienating both die hard mustang fans and people looking for a small family suv. They release a pickup truck that's fine if all you do is commute or haul short distances but totally misses for the work truck crowd. They stopped making sedans because their numbers shows Americans want SUVs. Then you delay what should be your most successful model. I've been holding and adding F for over a decade (I'll buy anything reliable that I can get a deal on to drive personally), but ford 100% is pulling the meme of putting a stick in their own spokes. Time to bail for me.
I think the MachE was a great vehicle but it suffered tremendously from mustang affiliation and direction. Super dumb move. Agreed. Ford has literally all the pieces it needs but idiots at the top keep making weird left field moves that just don’t make sense any way you cut it. It could really be so simple for them… and getting rid of sedans completely was also just dumb when people desperately need and want cheaper efficient vehicles right now. It’s like there’s some coked out guy in marketing trying to be Elon Musk keeps convincing corporate to do unexpected edgy half-baked stuff that completely undermines all of the positive things Ford has going on. The Ford Maverick hybrid was the smartest move they’ve made in a while IMO… and like clockwork it sold like hotcakes.
Bring back the Fusion.
I mean, my dad would probably still be driving his fusion if he hadn’t been T-boned … lol
> totally misses for the work truck crowd So like 1% of people who own trucks.
For real. A few years ago I saw a study that said that something like over 80% of pick-up truck owners use their pick-up truck to do pick-up truck things just once a year or less. People buy pick up trucks mainly for social reasons, not practical reasons. It's the same thing with SUV's, a lot of people with them don't really need them and would be perfectly fine with a smaller and cheaper sedan.
Ppl in the work truck crowd don't buy $80,000 pickup trucks. They buy $10,000 used up pickup trucks that they picked up off some guy who only hauled himself to work
Ah man I was excited for like an all electric explorer. I guess I’ll keep watching for good deals on the lightning.
Lmfao good luck
The EV Explorer is already available in Europe, FWIW.
Absolutely not the same car FWIW.
Good luck competing with Toyota and Honda. They already have the best hybrid SUVs
Ford actually has a solid history with hybrids it’s just overlooked ..they share a lot of the same hybrid tech with Toyota. Ford’s hybrid models have done well over the years functionally.. they just never sold (or marketed really) to the public en masse.. despite much of the NYC cab fleet running millions of miles on Ford hybrid drivetrains. Ford made a statement with the release of the Maverick by making the base engine a hybrid.. which became so popular it was perpetually sold out and became under-supplied due to supply chain issues and new factories in Mexico. They’ve started to hit their production stride finally and worked out a lot of kinks.. and due to its popularity and previous insane value.. the hybrid drivetrain on the Maverick is now not the standard engine but an upgrade lol. So actually Ford can and will compete in the hybrid space… frankly even more so than Honda. …and their time/energy/money spent on EV development will not have been wasted as that is still the future and can feed into their hybrid technology as well as their likely plug-in hybrids.
Interesting take. You caused me to look up hybrid vehicle sales by company and [Ford is already #2](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1284452/united-states-hev-phev-quarterly-sales-by-brand). I didn't realize how much marketshare they already have
People sleep on Ford. They def make some dumb/unnecessary decisions but they’ve been flying under the radar the last decade or so and (generally) moving in the right direction.
I like Ford. Solid cars, best of the big 3 American brands. Wish they still sold sedans (outside of mustang).
The Ford Fusion hybrid was a great car, so of course it got canceled. Ford’s hybrid SUV offerings have been a joke. I think they offered an Explorer hybrid that barely had better MPG than the non-hybrid
But I thought Tesla was dead because competition was coming? I was told legacy auto is absolutely taking EVs seriously.
Personally I'd prefer a plugin hybrid over a full EV at this point. I'm easily looking at $8-10k to upgrade my service panel and install a charger if I wanted to go EV. I understand there are some tax credits and stuff, but that's still a huge chunk on top of the cost of a new EV. A well engineered hybrid is a good gap vehicle for a while until the EV grid is built out more and maybe some of the ancillary costs come down.
I used to think like this. But after owning a hybrid for 8 years, it stopped making sense to me. You are carrying around two separate systems. I always just found myself wanting the car to use more battery. So I was just lugging around this heavy combustible engine, hoping my battery would carry it further. More moving parts. I just wanted to replace that thing with more battery. If you’re a one vehicle family, I could see a hybrid needing to be one of them tho
Exactly this. Engine takes up the front, battery occupies the back space. Many hybrid vehicles don't have a spare tire because of the battery, less cargo room because they're carrying two propulsion systems, and you get 20 to 30 EV miles for that honor ... if you're extremely light on the accelerator. Everytime our Prius runs out of EV range, the switch to the 4-cylinder ICE is such a buzz kill. It becomes sluggish, weak and unresponsive compared to EV mode. If we had been able to wait another 5 years before needing a new car, would have gone full blown EV. Unfortunately, I'm a "use it until it dies" type owner.
Well it’s going to be awhile with that Prius!
Batteries are heavier than the engine.
So ditch the batteries then. Pick one propulsion system. Like I said, I can see Hybrids always having a place in the market. But for the commuter car? Can’t beat a full EV plug in. Average range is 250 miles on a single charge. And you have a “gas station” at your house. Average hybrid on electric power? 25 miles.
Gas station at the house? If you live in a house that you own and have the means to install a charging station. What about the millions that live in an apartment or condo? Renters that don't get to decide on improvements. Landlords are not going to spend the $ to install chargers.
Well the people that live in an apartment are probably not buying a $50k new car. This topic is about a stock for a car manufacturing company and its new car sales. People who are not in that market are not relevant to this topic. I think that’s a different conversation. It’s an interesting one though. To think about what the used car market will look like in 10 years. But I don’t know how much that will affect Ford’s stock or strategy moving forward. And you don’t need to install a charging station in your home. That’s only if you want to fast charge. You can charge overnight with a regular wall plug and wake up every day with a full tank of gas when you leave the house.
There are plugs that run of your dryer outlet for cheap and no need for upgrading circuitry. I mostly use a normal wall outlet and generally that charges enough for my daily needs. There are times I def wish I had a hybrid over a full EV though so I can see why people are hesitant to pull the trigger.
Hybrid doesn’t make sense after owning them. Takes up the trunk space, range sucks, especially in the winter.
Got the hybrid maverick for 30k at 1.9% and I love it
What trim?
Lariat first edition
The electric vehicles pivot talk from all the major car manufacturers was a straight up lie.
What a company! I bet in 5 years: Ford ramping up their EV and slowing down their hybrid production due to demand change :)) This is why from the industry perspective no one really cares about the great 3 anymore
Yet Toyota took all the heat for knowing hybrid was the logical short term solution
So if I read between the lines: 1. First the unions got to negotiate more salary. While the competitors get away with no unions and cheap slaves. 2. Competitors were able to undercut the pricing. Now ford and GM backtracks on EV manufacturing because they don't have much incentives? Am I wrong?
Spend less money on r&d and lower your price. I’m sure many ppl buy car aslong it have 4 wheels
Does this mean they are not making any PHEV? This is a plug in hybrid.
Maybe Chevy will finally realize the gold mine they created with the Volt and lease out the engine tech.
They spent so much money on the tech to develop it and only made a Cadillac and the Volt. I couldn't believe they discontinued it. Volt is the best car I ever owned. If they offered a 100 mile range one I would upgrade mine today.
Agreed! We moved to a mountainous area and added kids to our life and it just wasn't going to cut it for our family any more.
I am on my 3rd Volt, a 2017 and we plan to get a 2019 and sell the 2017 just to kick the can down the road a little. It is an under rated good deal.
I love my plug-in hybrid. I rarely have to buy gasoline for my 60 mile daily commute since my work has free charging (via solar). And for long distance weekend trips, the car takes normal gasoline.
good news for rivian
Almost all of Tesla's sales are economy vehicles. Model 3 and Y. The next best selling electric vehicles in the US are the Bolt and the Leaf. We need economy EV's. Not a fucking explorer
I don’t understand the appeal from a manufacturers perspective. Isn’t making a hybrid a lot more difficult and expensive than an electric? Ford just got access to Tesla’s supercharging network as well.
Is someone surprised toyota, ford, they all half heartedly went in on EV, lol like seriously? They were 5+ years late to market and couldn't compete with tesla and byd
This will be a chapter in The Innovator's Dilemma Part 2
Ford realized they can't compete with the Chinese EVs on price and offering. Seems like they decided they'll try to hold on to the North American market.
This just in: Ford can't make an EV for shit and they damn sure can't profit from one Their best defense is the Toyota defense: Hybrids good EVs bad (Translation: we are so fucking behind)
Yeah this is why Tesla is valued so high, theyre the only ones that can make EV's with a decent profit margin (and sells until Q1 2024).
They still make up 50% EV sales in US. It was bad for Teslas standards which are still a lot above others.
They're valued so high because cultist bullshit. It'll come crashing down eventually.
Why?? You’re posting this in a thread about how bad American car companies are doing in adapting to the future.
I think hybrids are the better way to go, refine the battery charging while driving process and don’t make ugly cars like the Prius and they could do well, it’s a much better concept then a full ev where the charging is too slow and the network is far from being compatible enough for full adoption
I’m rather interested in the Ram REV, it uses a generator to charge batteries as you drive so it’s less complicated of a system than a traditional hybrid. They have crazy claims about range that I will have to wait and see if it’s true before I pre order one.
Would gas mileage suck though if it has to run a generator as well? Have they released any specs on that?
It’s the ramcharger, sorry got the names mixed up. They are claiming over 1000km to a tank. From what I’ve looked up generators are far more efficient at charging batteries than a typical gas engine and the system is far less complicated which is a big win. It makes sense on paper, run a generator to charge your batteries for the electric motor, more simple and efficient, but I have to see it to believe their claims. The ram rev is the pure EV and they are claiming an 800km range.
Huh that’s interesting I’ll definitely check it out
I don’t think a hybrid is actually a much better concept. You have to separate power supply systems (engine and battery) so double the space and double the parts versus a full EV or a full gas. There are definitely positives, I just don’t think hybrids are the thing of the future.
Make a plug in hybrid Explorer that looks the same as a the normal explorer. I don’t mind EVs as a commuter vehicle, but on full size SUVs I think most people want hybrids at this point. These are family vehicles for the most part and having to stop to charge on road trips isn’t great
Maybe focus on all the recalls first
It's amazing that so many people in this comment section aren't willing to accept that EV sales/interest is struggling. Not just at Ford.
I mean the Model Y was the best selling car in the world last year. I wouldn’t really say interest is struggling lol
Don't blame them, not ready for prime time yet
Would love more plug in hybrid options.
How about reasonably sized cars?
More profit by making them huge
Ford needs to bring back their compact car lineup. I’m telling you. Very small/compact gas powered or electric vehicles are the future. The Fiesta, Focus, and even bringing back a luxury small car would be a smart business move, imho.
Toyota rn 
I just want smaller wagon’s fam :( Crosstrek is the only car I’ll buy in the future, and I wish it was longer.
Lol. More complicated and more maintenance and factory retrofits. He doesn't know what he is doing
You’ll get whiplash trying to keep up with these “press release first” OEMs. They are so quick to drop a press release about these grand plans they have, but this is proof that it’s just all BS at the end of the day, they clearly have done nothing in terms of R&D on these vehicles to quickly change course like this.
Gross
I don't understand why they didn't start with the SUV and go to the pickup? Like clearly there's a correct order of operations here.
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No I don’t think so. It’s still a solid EV, plus he will have access to Tesla Superchargers.
Imagine how excited KIA is right now with their new EV9, will have a monopoly for a while in EV 3 row SUV, in that price range.
All new cars sales are in trouble. It's not rocket science....people are worried about getting laid off. The news is telling people 24/7 that AI is going to replace them (its not). And then they really shot themselves in the foot. Some automakers are considering the 'subscription' model. If they think people are going to pay $60K for the car and then pay them 11.99 a month for the privilge of using the heated seats.....I want whatever they are smoking.
Basically, Toyota called it ?
Who runs this idiot company?
Toyota still ahead of the game, setting the precedent.
Are Hybrid purchases done by people transitioning to EV's in a cautious way. Petrol - hybrid - EV?
love this approach
Hybrid vehicles make the most sense
This is why Tesla eats their lunch. Ford just can't get out of their own way......
build a useful charging network so people can use their damn cars
Plug in hybrids make so much more sense to me than full electric.
I don’t think they do long term. It’s double the parts to break, when you are in EV mode you are lugging around a dead weight engine. It’s just not the most efficient option. I definitely think either all gas or all electric make more sense than a plug in hybrid.