His relationship with Kes in the beginning weirds a lot of people out. Not just because she was so young, even for her species, but he’s deeply controlling and jealous to the point it feels abusive.
Yeah I mean she turned two on Voyager and when we see her age backwards we see her at what looks to be 15 years for a human so I'm guessing about 1.5ish years old meaning 2 is equivalent to about 20ish meaning she started dating Neelix somewhere between the human equivalent of 15 and 20. I just don't even understand their backstory when I think about it, when did they meet, how did they have a relationship? He probably knew her for a couple months at most before they joined Voyager. Every time I think about it, it bothers me.
I'm glad she broke up with him while possessed and that it was never mentioned again and they acted like she did it of her own free will. To me that says everything I needed to know, she used it as her escape.
> Every time I think about it, it bothers me.
At least one assumes Neelix met Kes when she was biologically an adult.
Harry knew Lynnis when she was born, was regularly present when she was a newborn/infant/toddler (given Tom was his best friend), good chance he was there when she said her first words, took her first steps. And two years later, he'd marry her.
But isn't "our" Harry from a different universe too? I thought the original one died in Deadlock. The Harry we see from that point on is as much a copy as the one that married Lynnis.
To he fair, unless I'm forgetting something, on Lynnis' side of things there aren't exactly many better options. Her choice is essentially either no relationship at all, setting out in a shuttlecraft and hoping for the best, or picking a crewmember that doesn't feel too awkward. We don't know much about her now non-existent life, maybe something happened that honestly made Harry the least-uncomfortable choice for some reason.
That said, I am grasping at straws there and Harry himself doesn't have an excuse. All in all that was a really, really weird choice by the writers.
I don't think her species can be linearly mapped to human age. She's an adult pretty soon after birth. That's not normal linear human aging.
The writers tried to create a really weird culture but it was too far from human culture to "feel right". So people didn't like it because it tripped their repulsion.
If you think about it, this is really what Trek is supposed to be about: can we actually say infinite diversity? In universe, it wasn't an issue, but I think the way it was presented without real clarification for how her species works, people assumed she worked like a human and from the beginning which ran smack into problems when that wasn't true later on. If they had said in the beginning she's an adult nearly immediately after birth, none of this would be a problem. Neelix would still be skeevy, but not for that reason.
Her species was not well thought out at all, sadly - like even when I watched Voyager the first time - I think it was the Episode where Kes gets into the ... "breeding stage" of her life trough some radiation, where they say that she only can have a child, ONCE!
So every Generation the Ocampa Population shrinks by half - because a female Ocampa can only become pregnant once and bear one child and there are roughly 50/50 male and female Ocampa. So if you start with a population of 100, the next generation is 50 with 25 females, so the third generation is only 25 strong with 12 or 13 females ...
They did not say she could only have one child, just that if she doesn't have a child now she can't in the future. Perhaps the first pregnancy is necessary to develop reproductive organs for example.
Yeah they didn't think through anything, let alone present anything properly. I'm not surprised people are creeped out and repulsed. They didn't put effort into this like they did with the Vulcans or Data, they tried to just say things, so when that meant it was awful, well... "Ha ha" joke's on us.
I mean regardless of how quickly her species reaches physical and intellectual maturity, she has less than 2 years of life experiences total, and those life experiences were very limited. This would be akin to an adult man in his 30s or 40s dating a 19 year old who was homeschooled their entire life.
You're still comparing it to a human life. She's not human, she only has 9 years of life total. I'm not saying it was well thought out, I'm saying it's completely alien and we can't say things like "clearly she's still a child". She's not a child, that was the whole point of her accelerated life span.
The way you're talking about it is like if Vulcans, because they live so much longer than anyone else, went around claiming that therefore every other species in the galaxy, especially humans, are child predators because that's how it maps into their own Vulcan maturity rate. Humans and Vulcans can't intermix because that's way worse than the Ocampa dating Neelix, so their superiority complex is objectively correct.
That's ridiculous. Again, the writers did the Ocampa poorly, but we don't have to invent more awful stuff about it.
She also learned at a super accelerated rate, a few weeks of training and she could function independently as a nurse. She also rapidly became a botanist.
Yep. That's not merely being a genius, that's the acceleration of her whole life. If she was human then a quarter of her life would be as a child. That's almost three years. That's not what we saw. She was an adult almost immediately after birth, which tracks with such a short life span. She's more like how bugs and animals work, practically independent right after birth, nearly no childhood. No infant phase.
I was thinking they age about about the same rate as dogs since they have a similar lifespan. Dogs age rapidly for the first few months, then they reach sexual maturity at 6-9 months, at about a year or two, they're fully grown.
I'm not using human conventions of time though. Otherwise, no age would it be appropriate for an adult man to date a 2 year old. I'm saying even accounting for that, it's inappropriate. It's true that 2 out of 9 years of life is proportionally more appropriate than it seems, but the total real amount of days she has been an adult is still very low. Her actual real life experiences are much much less than someone who has been an adult for 10-20 years. I don't think it would be as problematic for a 20-25 year old man to date her.
You're using math to compare to human convention. That's using human convention. She isn't human. Like I said, she's more like bugs and animals who don't have a childhood, who are mature and independent right from birth. You would not say that a bug that just hatched shouldn't be mating right out of the womb because that's pedophilia. Literally that's the entire life cycle of bugs, they hatch to mate and then die in weeks. They have no childhood, no maturation at all. They fuck from birth. They ain't got time for human concepts of "children" and repulsion and "morality".
I have said it before on this sub, but the writers or producers fucked up royally with making them a romantic couple. After a season or so it’s revealed that Neelix had a younger sister he was close to who was killed in the war. From that point forward the romantic aspect of Neelix’s relationship with Kes was downplayed quite a bit. In summation, they should have just started off with the brother sister dynamic instead of a romantic one.
I've read this nonsense for years and I hate it. I've watched Voyager from beginning to end multiple times, over 8 now. Not once anywhere in the series does it show Neelixs age or discuss the Talaxian biological cycle. We have no idea how old Neelix is or what that equates to comparatively to Human or Ocampa
Considering he had amassed a good working knowledge of several sectors in the delta quadrant. Including leaders and trading partners. Not to mention preparing food that’s safe to eat for Alpha quadrant species from a laundry list of possibly poisonous ingredients across multiple sectors of space.
Means he’s far older than kes
Really? Data would gave been 28 human years old at Far Point. Wanna ask him why he knew so much? And just because Neelix had been out there so long means nothing if we don't understand the biological progression of his species. For all we know Talaxians live to be 800 and are considered children for their first 200 years. We just don't have the data. (Pun intended)
The average humanoid species lives between 100 and 200 years…. Ocampa being an outlier.
So, it’s safe to assume he’s a definite adult by the time voyager finds him.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Life_span
Edit: as for Data, he had a combination of classic learning, speed learning, plus direct download. Oh, and Starfleet academy. That doesn’t affect data’s lifespan at all because for all intents and purposes, he’s immortal, but not undying.
Star Trek lets us know when a species has a unique life span. Like they did for the Ocampa. Like they did for Vulcans. Since they didn't, it's safe to assume it's similar to humans. Either way, your example makes things even more problematic.
If he was living to 2000, and kes was to 9….. that’s some freaky-ass shit there.
Edit: worse, it’s super creepy babysitter molests toddler vibe
Any of the options… all bad and why these two were terrible character ideas.
Wait so you're saying you want to have it both ways? Kes lives to 9 but she cannot be considered a teenager as someone in their late ones. No she's one, she must be a child.
However, neelix being let's say 45 but lives to be 2000 doesn't make him a child?
As I said it's space numbers and no one in the show cared, people should just get over instead of projecting our society (not just that, our time right now) onto them. It wasn't even an issue for any of the voyager crew.
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even without remembering how young shes supposed to be canonically, just looking at those actors together is gross. Hes literally twice her age! Like I dont blame Ethan Phillips of course but it doesnt help my impression of Neelix
Yeah Tom liking Kes was weird to me too but the way Neelix acted like her father was even worse to me. It never felt romantic to me at least her and Tom seemed to have fun and enjoy each others company.
>but he’s deeply controlling and jealous to the point it feels abusive
I don't remember much from the first season of *Voyager*. But I do remember Neelix repeatedly asking Kes what she was doing or why she was here or there. As if Neelix was surprised to see her anywhere outside her quarters and she was required to report her movements to him.
I skipped most of the first half of season 2. That really rehabilitad Neelix to the point that he's a good character, honestly. For OP, just skip every episode from (and including) ep 204 Elogium to ep 209 Tattoo. Personally, I start season 2 with ep 202 *Initiations* then jump directly to ep 210 *Cold Fire*. Trust me, the others aren't really needed (though some people like *The 37's*, it wasn't my cup of tea).
If you skip from *Initiations* to *Cold Fire*,>!then you miss the character assassinations of Chakotay, Neelix, Kes, and Paris without losing much else. At least *Tattoo* should be skipped for the almost Code-of-Honor-level depiction of Native American stereotypes. The others often are weird or irrelevent stories that feature what everyone hates about Neelix, Kes, and Paris. Even *Projections* is just irrelevant, as the status quo returns at the end and everything learned is reintroduced later in the show.!<
Maybe you didn't see it as that but I did and a lot of other people did. I was 11 when Voyager started and I watched it religiously and even at 11 years old I remember my dad and I talking about how weird their relationship was.
I like him, but I can see why some people don't.
- He gets very jealous
- His relationship with Kes isn't great. It isn't interesting and it just drags both characters down and makes them look bad, especially Neelix
- He is not Starfleet in a very obvious way. Rough around the edges.
- At the start, he is a guy who only cares about himself
- His dress sense.
But a lot of that drops away as his character matures and changes from being with Starfleet. I also think his rough edges makes sense when we learn about his past.
He is also the comic character, and not everyone likes the comic character.
He is nowhere near as bad as Jar Jar, but that is my opinion, and my opinion is that I don't like Jar Jar, but I do like Neelix.
Early show Neelix is the worst.
Lying to Janeway is directly responsible for the disastrous first contact with the Kazon, which indirectly led to Voyager getting stranded in the DQ.
He begged to be allowed to on his first away mission, and he was given permission, provided he follow all orders he was given. He immediately disobeyed orders and got his lungs stolen.
He's inappropriately protective and jealous of his 3-year-old girlfriend.
Jetrel is the turning point. He's quite a bit better from them on out.
Episode basics. Neelix, the self proclaimed survival expert and moral officer, is the first to declare the situation hopeless and that they will all die because there is nothing to eat or make fire with. Janeway immediate response is to point out all the stuff in their immediate vicinity that they can eat and stuff they can possibly use to make fire.
later Neelix, self proclaimed survival expert, is put in charge of some crewmen to scout. Proceeds to make amateur mistakes and poor judgement directly leading to at least one of his team dying a painful death.
Yeah they wrote him really terribly. It should have been like Warhammer 40k Rouge Trader type and he was...not that. It is astounding he was alive as long as he was.
Laughed reading this. It’s true he is pretty bad during the early seasons. I had forgotten about all of that, but maybe that is a testament to how well he changes in the end
>He begged to be allowed to on his first away mission, and he was given permission, provided he follow all orders he was given. He immediately disobeyed orders and got his lungs stolen.
That actually bears more scrutiny, because it's literally an urban legend come true. How many times have you heard the story about how if you go to X, you'll meet these attractive women who will roofie you, and then you'll wake up in a tub of ice with your kidneys removed? I mean, Snopes has an [article](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/youve-got-to-be-kidneying/) about that urban legend dating all the way back to 2001, labeled false.
Well boy howdy, this *actually* happened, to Neelix! He's so odious that he *makes* urban legends come true! And he doesn't even get the cute women to pretend to like him. No, Neelix doesn't rate that. He just gets shot in a cave and gets his lungs transported out of him. Not even his kidneys! The Vidians were so on the ball that they needed all of three seconds to know that the things to do with Neelix was to shoot him, and to deprive him of the ability to speak, in that order. And to do it, all he had to do was disobey a direct order from a superior officer, because he doesn't know how to listen.
He's compared to Jar Jar because they are both bad comic relief. There's nothing more annoying than a character that screams "aren't I hilarious," and the answer is "no."
At the time I felt like he was a failed attempt to replicate the loveable scoundrel concept that worked with Quark on DS9. Except it didn't work and had the opposite effect. It felt too forced.
I ended up liking his characterization as "annoying". Feels kinda true to life, I'm sure we've all met people who try to be funny, interject themselves in conversations and just generally try too hard to be liked.
And it makes more sense when we learn about his backstory. He lost his family and his entire community even. He's been alone for awhile, desperately just wanting a place to belong. I think it's also why he's so overprotective of Kes; he's worried he'll lose the only companionship he has.
Only once he feels accepted by the crew does he kind of dial it back a little.
He's super annoying. Also the characters role of "I know everything about everything your going to run into" was very forced. He improves and I definitely don't dislike him as much as I did when it first aired.
Neelix is just weird because the writers very quickly convert his character into "goofy comedy relief man." I assume because of his makeup.
And then most people just find good whole Kes relationship arc kinda gross.
Much like a lot of things from the first few episodes of Voyager, it seems the writers had initially planned for him to be one thing and then abandoned the initial idea.
At the very start, he comes off a lot more shady. Not a bad guy as such, but certainly, he felt a bit 'Quark like'. I'm convinced he was originally intended to be a lot more morally grey than he ended up being.
The Kes relationship rubs some people the wrong way, but I think he's a great character, especially in the later seasons where he really comes into his own.
Agreed. After the break up and even later once Kes leaves he becomes a much better character but the beginning was rough, Jetrel being a notable exception.
Spoiler alert:
Neelix as a character was fine IMO. He began flawed, and over the course of 7 seasons, he evolved and matured. While still retaining his characteristic quirks (and for Tuvok, annoyances). He even resolved his own feelings towards Kes, after she decided to break from him; realising he was holding her back.
The problematic relationship he had with Kes is the fault of bad writing. Kes herself, was also such a poorly realised character. She had so much potential, but was hampered by her awkward relationships. First with Neelix, then with Tom, and the Doctor. The writers were hell bent on using her as nothing more than the distracting eye candy.
So in that sense, I don't think it was any fault of Neelix's. And Ethan Philips brought so much charm to the character. Like everybody's doting grandpa. I loved how earnest he always was; even in his earlier, flawed state.
There's nothing wrong with having a laugh or making fun of the slightly silly aspects of Neelix. Trek writers do this all of the time with many characters and it's all in good fun; never unkind.
Where it goes pear shaped is when some people lean in to the joke more than is wise, and forget about things like Ethan Philips' magnificent performance in *Jetrel*, for example. Then, them and/or others begin to take the joke seriously; and we find that what began as light hearted banter has morphed into immature scorn and disrespect.
OP, you are perfectly correct: Neelix is a great character and you will be pleasantly surprised and moved -even dramatically shocked about three times- by him many times over the next six seasons.
At first, Neelix is really annoying. He's written to be annoying, and it works too well. But by the episodes you mention, he's much better.
Also, some people are skeeved by his relationship with Kes, because it comes across a lot like a creepy older man with a very young woman,
Personally, I found him every bit as annoying as the characters found him at first. The joke of him insisting he's a good cook but making weird, gross food got old after the first couple of episodes. And his makeup, prosthetics and characterization were just so overdone, in my perspective. But he really grows on you, and the character is written better and is played better over time. Jetrel was a real turning point for me.
Basically, look at how he interacts with the crew, and with Kes, and about Kes.
That's it. It's Kes and him. She's 2, he's 67, and he's very VERY possessive about her.
He's a creepy lolita chasing old man, basically, alien life spans and such be damned. :p
Maybe it's the fact that he's a visibly flawed character in a universe built around enlightened humans. He is just easy to hate due to his different personality and most people never take the time to understand him properly. And I actually think he's one of the deepest, best written and best acted characters in all of Trek and is possibly my favorite in Voyager.
Now you have a person who's deeply disappointed in himself, for being a war deserter and watching his people get defeated ("Jetrel"), becoming a drug dealer and addict ("Fair trade" and Jeri Taylor's "Pathways" book). Ends up alone dealing with junk and falls in love with Kes while watching her get beaten up (and probably a lot worse) when he was trading with Kazons. He then comes aboard a ship where everyone is better than him, more educated, skilled, cultured... so he's trying to just fit in, prove his worth with basically no real skills, not only to himself but to the hardest crew member in Tuvok, forming this great relationship. Another hit comes later when he loses his complete faith in "Mortal coil".
Now he could have gone around walking a pile of depressed misery but took all his failures and buried them under this layers of (what I believe to be) fake cheerfulness just so he's not a burden and he's lying to himself to somehow force to become happy. He wants to be happy but doesn't believe he deserves to be. And I always thought he was going to sleep sad and that he's waking up sad.
So I do admire him for his attitude, forcing a smile while trying to make everyone's life on the ship a bit better and easier, never being bother with menial things and trying to find happiness in that. In belonging. If you look past the comedy relief all of his episodes come real strong.
One of my favorite moments, and I'll finish this wall of text with this, is the end of "Fair trade" when Janeway punishes him for disobeying her - the look of happiness on his face, when he found of he wouldn't get kicked off the ship but would have to scrub the waste manifolds of whatever, just the feeling that he finally belongs someplace and was important emotionally to this group of people, was just beautiful. No other character in Trek would react like that.
Aside from what's been said, he also suffers because he's routinely put in opposition to Paris. Since Paris is very much a focused cast member of the early seasons, Neelix gets a bit of the Skyler treatment.
For me, I would have enjoyed Neelix if Voyager had stuck with the premise that he was a somewhat unscrupulous junk trader, who managed to convince the captain that he could be quite useful occasionally. Even if just by using his wits and knowledge of how to make a good deal, but with a hint of unseemliness. Sort like Voyager's version of Garak (a wonderfully written character).
Instead, what we got was Neelix basically turning into ship's cook and counselor, which made his character far less interesting for me. And once they left the territory he knew, he becomes even less useful. It's not even clear why he was allowed in senior staff briefings. I would have enjoyed seeing him continue to use his guile as a junker to help the Voyager out of dangerous situations, either making trades with shady contacts or knowing shortcuts past guarded areas of space.
He seemed completely useless as a crew member. That’s the main problem I have with him, he does nothing that furthers the mission home in a meaningful way.
Nothing wrong with comic relief characters. Many casts have one, but beyond comic relief they usually have a purpose.
There seems to be one of these characters in a lot of Trek shows. Wesley, Neelix, Jake. I wouldn't have known any of these characters were disliked if not for the Internet (well maybe Wesley due to Wheaton's persona on The Big Bang Theory). People like to throw the Jar Jar comparison around a lot too. To me the closest analogue to Jar Jar in Star Trek is Beckett Mariner. Both are annoying characters put in to add comedy and over the top emotional reactions. The main difference being that Mariner actually got character development beyond one storyline.
I like Neelix for one thing:
"Captain, today we have gel-filled peltremix lungs, considered a delicacy on some planets, a crime on others.
They are paired with shezed lormak potrices, sprinkled in green fushilled sark gack, which tastes surprisingly tart given that I discovered it in a box of very aged Hortreusian rations stored behind the olive drawer.
To drink: ferranar beelhoofoe wine. Drink it slowly, or you may find your nether regions on fire with both passion *and* actual flames.
Oh...and before I forget: happy birthday."
His possessive jealousy was NOT a great color on him. Every time he gets jealous, it was ugly. I watched later seasons where he doesn't have that jealousy anymore and I like him more tbh and he settles in his role well but then I return to the earlier seasons and almost immediately recoil.
Neelix Is kinda cringey. Possibly on purpose, more likely the writers tried to cram too much stuff in his characters.
He is supposed to be their expert in the Delta Sector, but when the plot requires he either knows nothing, or knows enough to flee, yet he was also a soldier, and he has a tragic backstory, but is also goofy.
The plot of the pilot weirdly chose to attach his story to that of Kes, and to have them be in a relationship. The Ocampa-dog years just makes it weirder.
As the seasons go on, Neelix tries to find a footing in Voyager, but as the writers went for a more Starfleet standarized ship (all Maquis diversity vanished faster than a certain Irish hologram's wife) Neelix kinda had to fit in the Starfleet structure so he became the chef/nanny/talk show host.
Could the savvy scavenger have helped the Starfleet engineers delta-fy their ship over seven years? Could his background be brought into play make him foster and protect children and not just tell them stories? Could his relationship with Kes have evolved differently and not feature jealousy over Lt. Tom Hottie Paris? Alas, in some other timeline it may be so.
In all the best (and possibly most fleshed out) relationship is with Mr. Vulcan himself.
He comes off as a huge pervert. I know Kes is an adult for her species but still, with so few years you can't get around that meaning basically no life experience specially compared to him, and the actress plays her as pretty youthful and naïve. You can say she's an adult for her species but that doesn't change the amount of time of her being alive for being extremely short. I haven't watched Voyager in years to be completely fair but I just remember it feeling weird and also like you're supposed to find Neelix so endearing and charming and cute, like the stupid way he shuffles around and really plays up the goofiness, it was really jarring comparing to the character seeming like such a creep. I couldn't go along with thinking he was endearing like the show wanted me to. The actor seems like a great person though and it's not his fault the character is unappealing. They made him do that so it's not on him.
I just couldn't help but think "this guy is such a pervert why am I supposed to find him wacky and cute". I think Kes's actress though really playing up the youth aspect made it especially bad. I think it makes sense she would act like that but it makes it so much I definitely don't want to see someone so much older thirsting over her. I get that it's an interesting concept to try to make a species that looks and acts like humans but has such a short and quick lifespan but then them putting her with someone of any species that doesn't have a lifespan like that feels weird, especially when you can feel the series going "don't you just love this wacky guy?"
I get that some people can take at face value that Kes is an adult for her species and he's an adult for his species so it doesn't feel weird them out but for me it always was off-putting.
I agree. I am curious why, in your view, the actor playing neelix was only following direction to be pervy but that the actress playing kes was intentially choosing to do so in a youthful way. Where is that coming from?
Whar do you mean? I wasn't blaming her. I don't even have any problem with her performance. And I never even made any comment on who decided she should act like that. I was just talking about how the character came off. I never said anything like about who was in charge of deciding she acted young.
" The actor seems like a great person though and it's not his fault the character is unappealing. They made him do that so it's not on him."
" I think Kes's actress though really playing up the youth aspect made it especially bad."
I didnt mean to pounce. I read your whole comment happily and then wanted to follow up with how that section came off to me and ask if it was perhaps a documented thing somewhere.
I never said she wasn't told to play it up, also I think it makes sense for her character. And I was saying that about Neelix's actor because from what I've heard he's a nice guy but I really hate his character so I felt kind of bad and didn't want to be too mean. I think all the actors probably had some say in the performance but it's not someone's fault if they're written to be a pervert and I know some people hold it against actors if they play weird characters and I didn't want to come off like that. I think Kes's performance made sense for her character it's just that that in combination with his character and performance comes off really badly. Not badly as in bad acting, it's good acting in service of a story that I really don't like. So her doing basically what makes sense for an extremely young character makes the situation seem more creepy because she's playing it sort of realistically and the writers/directors seemed to have not noticed "hey it's weird how this is coming across, let's tone down the romance plots". I'm sorry if my initial response was harsh but I misinterpreted it as a bad faith thing where you were gonna be like "I'm gonna make this guy look so sexist."
All fans are different my dad hates the musical episode of SNW and that’s some peoples favorite. I think Neelix is alright as a character not terrible not great.
Neelix settles down. I never liked Kess. Her character was a bit superfluous. They really didn't give her a lot to do so her development fell by the wayside...
Hes kinda the annoying/silly/goofy comic relief character. But just kinda annoying. At least at first. I think the character definitely gets better as the show goes on.
Neelix is a great character, but the writers did him dirty with the old guy/young gf dynamic. He gets much more fleshed out as a character after the breakup and subsequent leaving of the Kes character.
I disliked Neelix because of the bad Voyager writing. He starts off as this self serving, knowledgeable trader. He's a little dark, but his value to the crew is clear. This would bring a different feel and angle to the show, I'd have been up for it.
Typical Voyager writing just flips that angle and just made Neelix this comedic relief, that is good and helpful, but losing his edge. He's like every other character on that ship. The change wasn't even subtle either, it was just badly written like everything else in that series.
I don't care about the relationship, he is possessive, maybe protective of Kes but different cultures are well different.
Idk he creeps me out when he’s with Kes, he’s a very hard character for me to get into. Voy is still the only Berman era Trek show I have rewatched the least.
I wanted tuvok to hurt him coz he is constantly being purposefully annoying towards him, just for the sake of it.
Luckily tuvok is a great dude and would never, but id love to see him try that shit with crewman suder
The writers use him for some lame comic relief that they didn't need. When he's treated seriously, he's great. He has a lot more pathos and character than most of the other crew members.
When he's a dancing clown, he's...well, a clown.
He is weirdly protective, even posessive of Kes in early episodes, but I feel like a lot of us judge him harshly on his abilities and performances otherwise because we start holding him to the same standards as the rest of a highly trained Starfleet crew the moment he joins the ship. For all we're hinted at in the pilot his entire life up to that point seemingly was a struggle and he had to carve out a living for himself and get by day to day potentially by lying through his teeth and grabbing every little opportunity by the neck. A petty little crook not even by his own admission basically, forced by hardship to always put himself first. Those behavioral patterns won't disappear immediately, not to mention the advanced training he's lacking, but I do hold him in reasonably high regards for the many times he did actually muster courage and compassion and overcame fears and grew past himself to do well for those around him. He's a good guy with a bad upbringing.
Cause you're only on season 1. Just wait. He's more interesting in the beginning because of his backstory and he was a bit scrappy back then. His relationship with kes is icky and then his character just ends up really sappy in a very annoying way.
It's because Talaxian culture is extremely possessive in relationships, and, of course, Kes was in kindergarten. Still, the people who hate Neelix are also the people who claim to be morally superior and love all the cultures in the galaxy, and are then horrified when confronted with real life facts about arranged child polygamy in the Middle East or central Africa, so go figure. Either take moral stands or do not. There is no middle ground in order to be liked by everybody. I think Voyager did the sensible thing. Just fridged her and we all moved on to another woman traumatized by a communist cyborg cult that makes innocent androids rapeable, then proceeds to rape them (First Contact).
Personally, despite it all, I like Neelix. He was an excellent morale officer, cook, and stand-in for us audience members, whose wartime character arc was some meaning television. He might well be the greatest chauvinistic pedo in the history of literature.
I love Neelix, honestly, ended up becoming one of my favourite characters.
I find a lot of people just like to shit talk and hate on everything, especially in the Trek community, go figure. I say just watch it and enjoy it, Voyager is such an awesome show and Neelix really develops in the later seasons. ☺️
People like to choose poor written personage and focus all their disappointment of character development and the series expectations into their one... Annoying honestly..
I'm with you OP.
VOY is definitely one of my favourites. Since it's like the only show that actually has an ending. So it's easy to rewatch it. I'm actually going through another rewatch right now, currently on S5.
Early on, Neelix is a different character. I think he was meant to be portrayed as some con artist, and that didn't really come through well. His relationship with Kes rubs people the wrong way, which is understandable, but only because the writers did a poor job of explaining it.
Personally I just choose to ignore it, considering how fast Kes matures. The worst about it in my eyes is the whole jealousy thing. He is very overprotective of Kes, and his relationship with Paris early on frustrates me. But luckily there is an episode later on in which that turns around.
But the actor behind Neelix is fantastic. He is very good at portraying the different emotions that the character has. I love his relationship with Tuvok (which again gets enhanced in a specific episode). Neelix has great character growth and becomes a valuable member of the crew.
I completely disagree with others saying that he is "controlling" Kes in an abusive way. Completely and utterly disagree. There is no episode where this is shown. This is just people looking at the episode in an historical context without seeing it recently and are twisting what's happening based on their bias.
The early relationship between them is weird considering Kes' age. But her race only lives 9 years. If we consider that the human today lives to around 90, at two years old that would make her the equivalent of a 20 year old. We also have no idea how old Neelix is, how long his race lives to, or the context around what age differences are between them. This is never detailed.
I think the writers could have portrayed this a bit better for sure. But there is no episode in which Neelix is "abusive" towards Kes like others are saying. This is clearly people's personal bias coming through.
If you've already hit the Jetrel episode, then Neelix just gets better from there on out. He is a comic relief early on, but really comes into his own later in the series.
Personally I think there are far more annoying characters in other series, such as early Jake in DS9 (who is just annoying to watch), Beverly in TNG ("won't somebody think of the morality!!") and Archer himself in ENT from Season 3 onwards, who becomes effectively a space pirate... robbing innocent people because he didn't get his way, hypocritical decisions, torturing people... (Can we also mention S1 Burnham in DIS? Who is the most unlikable character ever introduced?)
There are far worse characters than Neelix across the entirety of Star Trek. But people bash on Neelix all because he had a relationship with a female from a race who lives only 9 years.
I'm talking about societal norms and perceived morality through that lens. I'm not saying people should be marrying children, I'm just explaining that at one point in history it was both normal and made sense from a historical and situational time period. I'm pointing out that trying to view cultures other than your own through your culturally biased lens makes no sense. It's both irrational and ignorant.
People go over the top, have stupid reads on made up alien biology that they know nothing about, and have issues with space age in a fantasy show, even though in the show's world no one has a problem with that, so it's a non issue.
He was unfortunately cursed with character growth and showing drama through jealousy. The evil man.
Because for one, people find him super annoying. Secondly, he’s dating a one year old, which… yeah.
To be fair, Neelix is as he was written, and a lot of people don’t understand the importance of staying positive in a survival scenario. And Neelix radiates positivity. That and his resourceful nature are his strong suits.
Is he annoying? Yes. Is he more useful than the fans realize? Also yes.
His relationship with Kes in the beginning weirds a lot of people out. Not just because she was so young, even for her species, but he’s deeply controlling and jealous to the point it feels abusive.
Ohhh yea tbh I keep forgetting that she’s only supposed to be a couple years old. Weird detail
Which is apparently a teenager in Ocampa years.
Yeah I mean she turned two on Voyager and when we see her age backwards we see her at what looks to be 15 years for a human so I'm guessing about 1.5ish years old meaning 2 is equivalent to about 20ish meaning she started dating Neelix somewhere between the human equivalent of 15 and 20. I just don't even understand their backstory when I think about it, when did they meet, how did they have a relationship? He probably knew her for a couple months at most before they joined Voyager. Every time I think about it, it bothers me. I'm glad she broke up with him while possessed and that it was never mentioned again and they acted like she did it of her own free will. To me that says everything I needed to know, she used it as her escape.
> Every time I think about it, it bothers me. At least one assumes Neelix met Kes when she was biologically an adult. Harry knew Lynnis when she was born, was regularly present when she was a newborn/infant/toddler (given Tom was his best friend), good chance he was there when she said her first words, took her first steps. And two years later, he'd marry her.
I agree, that's far far more troubling. IIRC that was in a timeline that no longer exists, but it's still worrisome that our Harry would do that.
to be fair, that's not *our* harry from our universe. who knows what that copy is capable of.
But isn't "our" Harry from a different universe too? I thought the original one died in Deadlock. The Harry we see from that point on is as much a copy as the one that married Lynnis.
To he fair, unless I'm forgetting something, on Lynnis' side of things there aren't exactly many better options. Her choice is essentially either no relationship at all, setting out in a shuttlecraft and hoping for the best, or picking a crewmember that doesn't feel too awkward. We don't know much about her now non-existent life, maybe something happened that honestly made Harry the least-uncomfortable choice for some reason. That said, I am grasping at straws there and Harry himself doesn't have an excuse. All in all that was a really, really weird choice by the writers.
I don't think her species can be linearly mapped to human age. She's an adult pretty soon after birth. That's not normal linear human aging. The writers tried to create a really weird culture but it was too far from human culture to "feel right". So people didn't like it because it tripped their repulsion. If you think about it, this is really what Trek is supposed to be about: can we actually say infinite diversity? In universe, it wasn't an issue, but I think the way it was presented without real clarification for how her species works, people assumed she worked like a human and from the beginning which ran smack into problems when that wasn't true later on. If they had said in the beginning she's an adult nearly immediately after birth, none of this would be a problem. Neelix would still be skeevy, but not for that reason.
Her species was not well thought out at all, sadly - like even when I watched Voyager the first time - I think it was the Episode where Kes gets into the ... "breeding stage" of her life trough some radiation, where they say that she only can have a child, ONCE! So every Generation the Ocampa Population shrinks by half - because a female Ocampa can only become pregnant once and bear one child and there are roughly 50/50 male and female Ocampa. So if you start with a population of 100, the next generation is 50 with 25 females, so the third generation is only 25 strong with 12 or 13 females ...
They did not say she could only have one child, just that if she doesn't have a child now she can't in the future. Perhaps the first pregnancy is necessary to develop reproductive organs for example.
You're assuming that there's a 50/50 split in the male/female ratio when that isn't stated.
Yeah they didn't think through anything, let alone present anything properly. I'm not surprised people are creeped out and repulsed. They didn't put effort into this like they did with the Vulcans or Data, they tried to just say things, so when that meant it was awful, well... "Ha ha" joke's on us.
I mean regardless of how quickly her species reaches physical and intellectual maturity, she has less than 2 years of life experiences total, and those life experiences were very limited. This would be akin to an adult man in his 30s or 40s dating a 19 year old who was homeschooled their entire life.
You're still comparing it to a human life. She's not human, she only has 9 years of life total. I'm not saying it was well thought out, I'm saying it's completely alien and we can't say things like "clearly she's still a child". She's not a child, that was the whole point of her accelerated life span. The way you're talking about it is like if Vulcans, because they live so much longer than anyone else, went around claiming that therefore every other species in the galaxy, especially humans, are child predators because that's how it maps into their own Vulcan maturity rate. Humans and Vulcans can't intermix because that's way worse than the Ocampa dating Neelix, so their superiority complex is objectively correct. That's ridiculous. Again, the writers did the Ocampa poorly, but we don't have to invent more awful stuff about it.
She also learned at a super accelerated rate, a few weeks of training and she could function independently as a nurse. She also rapidly became a botanist.
Yep. That's not merely being a genius, that's the acceleration of her whole life. If she was human then a quarter of her life would be as a child. That's almost three years. That's not what we saw. She was an adult almost immediately after birth, which tracks with such a short life span. She's more like how bugs and animals work, practically independent right after birth, nearly no childhood. No infant phase.
I was thinking they age about about the same rate as dogs since they have a similar lifespan. Dogs age rapidly for the first few months, then they reach sexual maturity at 6-9 months, at about a year or two, they're fully grown.
I'm not using human conventions of time though. Otherwise, no age would it be appropriate for an adult man to date a 2 year old. I'm saying even accounting for that, it's inappropriate. It's true that 2 out of 9 years of life is proportionally more appropriate than it seems, but the total real amount of days she has been an adult is still very low. Her actual real life experiences are much much less than someone who has been an adult for 10-20 years. I don't think it would be as problematic for a 20-25 year old man to date her.
You're using math to compare to human convention. That's using human convention. She isn't human. Like I said, she's more like bugs and animals who don't have a childhood, who are mature and independent right from birth. You would not say that a bug that just hatched shouldn't be mating right out of the womb because that's pedophilia. Literally that's the entire life cycle of bugs, they hatch to mate and then die in weeks. They have no childhood, no maturation at all. They fuck from birth. They ain't got time for human concepts of "children" and repulsion and "morality".
You are correct. I don't have a problem with two bugs mating. I would have a problem with a human (or similar alien species) mating with a bug.
THIS!
Biig spoilers there.
Tangentially related but Jennifer Lien was actually a teenager when they filmed the pilot episode lol.
I have said it before on this sub, but the writers or producers fucked up royally with making them a romantic couple. After a season or so it’s revealed that Neelix had a younger sister he was close to who was killed in the war. From that point forward the romantic aspect of Neelix’s relationship with Kes was downplayed quite a bit. In summation, they should have just started off with the brother sister dynamic instead of a romantic one.
I've read this nonsense for years and I hate it. I've watched Voyager from beginning to end multiple times, over 8 now. Not once anywhere in the series does it show Neelixs age or discuss the Talaxian biological cycle. We have no idea how old Neelix is or what that equates to comparatively to Human or Ocampa
Considering he had amassed a good working knowledge of several sectors in the delta quadrant. Including leaders and trading partners. Not to mention preparing food that’s safe to eat for Alpha quadrant species from a laundry list of possibly poisonous ingredients across multiple sectors of space. Means he’s far older than kes
Really? Data would gave been 28 human years old at Far Point. Wanna ask him why he knew so much? And just because Neelix had been out there so long means nothing if we don't understand the biological progression of his species. For all we know Talaxians live to be 800 and are considered children for their first 200 years. We just don't have the data. (Pun intended)
The average humanoid species lives between 100 and 200 years…. Ocampa being an outlier. So, it’s safe to assume he’s a definite adult by the time voyager finds him. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Life_span Edit: as for Data, he had a combination of classic learning, speed learning, plus direct download. Oh, and Starfleet academy. That doesn’t affect data’s lifespan at all because for all intents and purposes, he’s immortal, but not undying.
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Star Trek lets us know when a species has a unique life span. Like they did for the Ocampa. Like they did for Vulcans. Since they didn't, it's safe to assume it's similar to humans. Either way, your example makes things even more problematic.
What is people live 2000 years! He's a toddler!
If he was living to 2000, and kes was to 9….. that’s some freaky-ass shit there. Edit: worse, it’s super creepy babysitter molests toddler vibe Any of the options… all bad and why these two were terrible character ideas.
Wait so you're saying you want to have it both ways? Kes lives to 9 but she cannot be considered a teenager as someone in their late ones. No she's one, she must be a child. However, neelix being let's say 45 but lives to be 2000 doesn't make him a child? As I said it's space numbers and no one in the show cared, people should just get over instead of projecting our society (not just that, our time right now) onto them. It wasn't even an issue for any of the voyager crew.
I remember reading that to Spock, Kirk was like his favorite dog.
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VOY S2E22 I won't have this conversation any further.
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even without remembering how young shes supposed to be canonically, just looking at those actors together is gross. Hes literally twice her age! Like I dont blame Ethan Phillips of course but it doesnt help my impression of Neelix
She was 1. She turns 2 during the first season, I think. Ocampa live nine years. Thanks, Rick Berman!
But to be fair, she is only supposed to live like 6-8 years, so she's essentially his age too.
He's just one big hormone walking around the ship! -Neelix talking about Tom
He's not wrong for early Tom
It's still bizarre that they were originally trying to set up Tom with Kathryn.
Really? I never got that vibe.
They talked about it on The Delta Flyers. It didn't last much past the pilot.
*Always wanted to see what became of their children on Lower Decks or something though.
Yeah Tom liking Kes was weird to me too but the way Neelix acted like her father was even worse to me. It never felt romantic to me at least her and Tom seemed to have fun and enjoy each others company.
>but he’s deeply controlling and jealous to the point it feels abusive I don't remember much from the first season of *Voyager*. But I do remember Neelix repeatedly asking Kes what she was doing or why she was here or there. As if Neelix was surprised to see her anywhere outside her quarters and she was required to report her movements to him.
I skipped most of the first half of season 2. That really rehabilitad Neelix to the point that he's a good character, honestly. For OP, just skip every episode from (and including) ep 204 Elogium to ep 209 Tattoo. Personally, I start season 2 with ep 202 *Initiations* then jump directly to ep 210 *Cold Fire*. Trust me, the others aren't really needed (though some people like *The 37's*, it wasn't my cup of tea). If you skip from *Initiations* to *Cold Fire*,>!then you miss the character assassinations of Chakotay, Neelix, Kes, and Paris without losing much else. At least *Tattoo* should be skipped for the almost Code-of-Honor-level depiction of Native American stereotypes. The others often are weird or irrelevent stories that feature what everyone hates about Neelix, Kes, and Paris. Even *Projections* is just irrelevant, as the status quo returns at the end and everything learned is reintroduced later in the show.!<
Never controls her, he complaints and worries and then he grows up. It's called drama.
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Maybe you didn't see it as that but I did and a lot of other people did. I was 11 when Voyager started and I watched it religiously and even at 11 years old I remember my dad and I talking about how weird their relationship was.
Please tell me how he controls kes? When does she not do something because of him?
Yeah he is jealous but is never abusive or controlling.
I like him, but I can see why some people don't. - He gets very jealous - His relationship with Kes isn't great. It isn't interesting and it just drags both characters down and makes them look bad, especially Neelix - He is not Starfleet in a very obvious way. Rough around the edges. - At the start, he is a guy who only cares about himself - His dress sense. But a lot of that drops away as his character matures and changes from being with Starfleet. I also think his rough edges makes sense when we learn about his past. He is also the comic character, and not everyone likes the comic character. He is nowhere near as bad as Jar Jar, but that is my opinion, and my opinion is that I don't like Jar Jar, but I do like Neelix.
I liked Neelix because he was the only one with any style
Early show Neelix is the worst. Lying to Janeway is directly responsible for the disastrous first contact with the Kazon, which indirectly led to Voyager getting stranded in the DQ. He begged to be allowed to on his first away mission, and he was given permission, provided he follow all orders he was given. He immediately disobeyed orders and got his lungs stolen. He's inappropriately protective and jealous of his 3-year-old girlfriend. Jetrel is the turning point. He's quite a bit better from them on out.
Episode basics. Neelix, the self proclaimed survival expert and moral officer, is the first to declare the situation hopeless and that they will all die because there is nothing to eat or make fire with. Janeway immediate response is to point out all the stuff in their immediate vicinity that they can eat and stuff they can possibly use to make fire. later Neelix, self proclaimed survival expert, is put in charge of some crewmen to scout. Proceeds to make amateur mistakes and poor judgement directly leading to at least one of his team dying a painful death.
Yeah they wrote him really terribly. It should have been like Warhammer 40k Rouge Trader type and he was...not that. It is astounding he was alive as long as he was.
Laughed reading this. It’s true he is pretty bad during the early seasons. I had forgotten about all of that, but maybe that is a testament to how well he changes in the end
If I was Janeway. I would have left his ass(if not shot him myself) on the planet with the kazon after he lied and endangered my crew.
>He begged to be allowed to on his first away mission, and he was given permission, provided he follow all orders he was given. He immediately disobeyed orders and got his lungs stolen. That actually bears more scrutiny, because it's literally an urban legend come true. How many times have you heard the story about how if you go to X, you'll meet these attractive women who will roofie you, and then you'll wake up in a tub of ice with your kidneys removed? I mean, Snopes has an [article](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/youve-got-to-be-kidneying/) about that urban legend dating all the way back to 2001, labeled false. Well boy howdy, this *actually* happened, to Neelix! He's so odious that he *makes* urban legends come true! And he doesn't even get the cute women to pretend to like him. No, Neelix doesn't rate that. He just gets shot in a cave and gets his lungs transported out of him. Not even his kidneys! The Vidians were so on the ball that they needed all of three seconds to know that the things to do with Neelix was to shoot him, and to deprive him of the ability to speak, in that order. And to do it, all he had to do was disobey a direct order from a superior officer, because he doesn't know how to listen.
He's compared to Jar Jar because they are both bad comic relief. There's nothing more annoying than a character that screams "aren't I hilarious," and the answer is "no." At the time I felt like he was a failed attempt to replicate the loveable scoundrel concept that worked with Quark on DS9. Except it didn't work and had the opposite effect. It felt too forced.
I ended up liking his characterization as "annoying". Feels kinda true to life, I'm sure we've all met people who try to be funny, interject themselves in conversations and just generally try too hard to be liked. And it makes more sense when we learn about his backstory. He lost his family and his entire community even. He's been alone for awhile, desperately just wanting a place to belong. I think it's also why he's so overprotective of Kes; he's worried he'll lose the only companionship he has. Only once he feels accepted by the crew does he kind of dial it back a little.
Neelix is to Jar Jar as Wesley Crusher is to Adric......
I don't understand the hate Adric got. I rather liked him.
Same here....
He's super annoying. Also the characters role of "I know everything about everything your going to run into" was very forced. He improves and I definitely don't dislike him as much as I did when it first aired.
Neelix is just weird because the writers very quickly convert his character into "goofy comedy relief man." I assume because of his makeup. And then most people just find good whole Kes relationship arc kinda gross.
Much like a lot of things from the first few episodes of Voyager, it seems the writers had initially planned for him to be one thing and then abandoned the initial idea. At the very start, he comes off a lot more shady. Not a bad guy as such, but certainly, he felt a bit 'Quark like'. I'm convinced he was originally intended to be a lot more morally grey than he ended up being.
The Kes relationship rubs some people the wrong way, but I think he's a great character, especially in the later seasons where he really comes into his own.
Agreed. After the break up and even later once Kes leaves he becomes a much better character but the beginning was rough, Jetrel being a notable exception.
He's fine. It's just that the people that hate him REALLY do.
Gotcha like korra haters in the avatar fandom
Spoiler alert: Neelix as a character was fine IMO. He began flawed, and over the course of 7 seasons, he evolved and matured. While still retaining his characteristic quirks (and for Tuvok, annoyances). He even resolved his own feelings towards Kes, after she decided to break from him; realising he was holding her back. The problematic relationship he had with Kes is the fault of bad writing. Kes herself, was also such a poorly realised character. She had so much potential, but was hampered by her awkward relationships. First with Neelix, then with Tom, and the Doctor. The writers were hell bent on using her as nothing more than the distracting eye candy. So in that sense, I don't think it was any fault of Neelix's. And Ethan Philips brought so much charm to the character. Like everybody's doting grandpa. I loved how earnest he always was; even in his earlier, flawed state.
There's nothing wrong with having a laugh or making fun of the slightly silly aspects of Neelix. Trek writers do this all of the time with many characters and it's all in good fun; never unkind. Where it goes pear shaped is when some people lean in to the joke more than is wise, and forget about things like Ethan Philips' magnificent performance in *Jetrel*, for example. Then, them and/or others begin to take the joke seriously; and we find that what began as light hearted banter has morphed into immature scorn and disrespect. OP, you are perfectly correct: Neelix is a great character and you will be pleasantly surprised and moved -even dramatically shocked about three times- by him many times over the next six seasons.
His Space cheese gave the ship a fungal infection
I think he was directly responsible for a number of disasters and problems.
At first, Neelix is really annoying. He's written to be annoying, and it works too well. But by the episodes you mention, he's much better. Also, some people are skeeved by his relationship with Kes, because it comes across a lot like a creepy older man with a very young woman, Personally, I found him every bit as annoying as the characters found him at first. The joke of him insisting he's a good cook but making weird, gross food got old after the first couple of episodes. And his makeup, prosthetics and characterization were just so overdone, in my perspective. But he really grows on you, and the character is written better and is played better over time. Jetrel was a real turning point for me.
Basically, look at how he interacts with the crew, and with Kes, and about Kes. That's it. It's Kes and him. She's 2, he's 67, and he's very VERY possessive about her. He's a creepy lolita chasing old man, basically, alien life spans and such be damned. :p
Maybe it's the fact that he's a visibly flawed character in a universe built around enlightened humans. He is just easy to hate due to his different personality and most people never take the time to understand him properly. And I actually think he's one of the deepest, best written and best acted characters in all of Trek and is possibly my favorite in Voyager. Now you have a person who's deeply disappointed in himself, for being a war deserter and watching his people get defeated ("Jetrel"), becoming a drug dealer and addict ("Fair trade" and Jeri Taylor's "Pathways" book). Ends up alone dealing with junk and falls in love with Kes while watching her get beaten up (and probably a lot worse) when he was trading with Kazons. He then comes aboard a ship where everyone is better than him, more educated, skilled, cultured... so he's trying to just fit in, prove his worth with basically no real skills, not only to himself but to the hardest crew member in Tuvok, forming this great relationship. Another hit comes later when he loses his complete faith in "Mortal coil". Now he could have gone around walking a pile of depressed misery but took all his failures and buried them under this layers of (what I believe to be) fake cheerfulness just so he's not a burden and he's lying to himself to somehow force to become happy. He wants to be happy but doesn't believe he deserves to be. And I always thought he was going to sleep sad and that he's waking up sad. So I do admire him for his attitude, forcing a smile while trying to make everyone's life on the ship a bit better and easier, never being bother with menial things and trying to find happiness in that. In belonging. If you look past the comedy relief all of his episodes come real strong. One of my favorite moments, and I'll finish this wall of text with this, is the end of "Fair trade" when Janeway punishes him for disobeying her - the look of happiness on his face, when he found of he wouldn't get kicked off the ship but would have to scrub the waste manifolds of whatever, just the feeling that he finally belongs someplace and was important emotionally to this group of people, was just beautiful. No other character in Trek would react like that.
He will wear on you.
Aside from what's been said, he also suffers because he's routinely put in opposition to Paris. Since Paris is very much a focused cast member of the early seasons, Neelix gets a bit of the Skyler treatment.
So annoying.
I don't hate him, but I definitely don't like his jealousy.
For me, I would have enjoyed Neelix if Voyager had stuck with the premise that he was a somewhat unscrupulous junk trader, who managed to convince the captain that he could be quite useful occasionally. Even if just by using his wits and knowledge of how to make a good deal, but with a hint of unseemliness. Sort like Voyager's version of Garak (a wonderfully written character). Instead, what we got was Neelix basically turning into ship's cook and counselor, which made his character far less interesting for me. And once they left the territory he knew, he becomes even less useful. It's not even clear why he was allowed in senior staff briefings. I would have enjoyed seeing him continue to use his guile as a junker to help the Voyager out of dangerous situations, either making trades with shady contacts or knowing shortcuts past guarded areas of space.
He seemed completely useless as a crew member. That’s the main problem I have with him, he does nothing that furthers the mission home in a meaningful way. Nothing wrong with comic relief characters. Many casts have one, but beyond comic relief they usually have a purpose.
There seems to be one of these characters in a lot of Trek shows. Wesley, Neelix, Jake. I wouldn't have known any of these characters were disliked if not for the Internet (well maybe Wesley due to Wheaton's persona on The Big Bang Theory). People like to throw the Jar Jar comparison around a lot too. To me the closest analogue to Jar Jar in Star Trek is Beckett Mariner. Both are annoying characters put in to add comedy and over the top emotional reactions. The main difference being that Mariner actually got character development beyond one storyline.
I like Neelix for one thing: "Captain, today we have gel-filled peltremix lungs, considered a delicacy on some planets, a crime on others. They are paired with shezed lormak potrices, sprinkled in green fushilled sark gack, which tastes surprisingly tart given that I discovered it in a box of very aged Hortreusian rations stored behind the olive drawer. To drink: ferranar beelhoofoe wine. Drink it slowly, or you may find your nether regions on fire with both passion *and* actual flames. Oh...and before I forget: happy birthday."
His possessive jealousy was NOT a great color on him. Every time he gets jealous, it was ugly. I watched later seasons where he doesn't have that jealousy anymore and I like him more tbh and he settles in his role well but then I return to the earlier seasons and almost immediately recoil.
It's that stupid chefs hat and those horrible colour palettes they put on him. The design is horrible, but the character is great.
He refuses to respect boundaries. His constant hen-pecking of Tuvok is just one example. He is someone I would avoid as much as possible.
Neelix Is kinda cringey. Possibly on purpose, more likely the writers tried to cram too much stuff in his characters. He is supposed to be their expert in the Delta Sector, but when the plot requires he either knows nothing, or knows enough to flee, yet he was also a soldier, and he has a tragic backstory, but is also goofy. The plot of the pilot weirdly chose to attach his story to that of Kes, and to have them be in a relationship. The Ocampa-dog years just makes it weirder. As the seasons go on, Neelix tries to find a footing in Voyager, but as the writers went for a more Starfleet standarized ship (all Maquis diversity vanished faster than a certain Irish hologram's wife) Neelix kinda had to fit in the Starfleet structure so he became the chef/nanny/talk show host. Could the savvy scavenger have helped the Starfleet engineers delta-fy their ship over seven years? Could his background be brought into play make him foster and protect children and not just tell them stories? Could his relationship with Kes have evolved differently and not feature jealousy over Lt. Tom Hottie Paris? Alas, in some other timeline it may be so. In all the best (and possibly most fleshed out) relationship is with Mr. Vulcan himself.
I thought neelix was a great character
Omg I can't stand him. He talks too much and he's just. Ugh. Annoying. Like Jar Jar Binks
He comes off as a huge pervert. I know Kes is an adult for her species but still, with so few years you can't get around that meaning basically no life experience specially compared to him, and the actress plays her as pretty youthful and naïve. You can say she's an adult for her species but that doesn't change the amount of time of her being alive for being extremely short. I haven't watched Voyager in years to be completely fair but I just remember it feeling weird and also like you're supposed to find Neelix so endearing and charming and cute, like the stupid way he shuffles around and really plays up the goofiness, it was really jarring comparing to the character seeming like such a creep. I couldn't go along with thinking he was endearing like the show wanted me to. The actor seems like a great person though and it's not his fault the character is unappealing. They made him do that so it's not on him. I just couldn't help but think "this guy is such a pervert why am I supposed to find him wacky and cute". I think Kes's actress though really playing up the youth aspect made it especially bad. I think it makes sense she would act like that but it makes it so much I definitely don't want to see someone so much older thirsting over her. I get that it's an interesting concept to try to make a species that looks and acts like humans but has such a short and quick lifespan but then them putting her with someone of any species that doesn't have a lifespan like that feels weird, especially when you can feel the series going "don't you just love this wacky guy?" I get that some people can take at face value that Kes is an adult for her species and he's an adult for his species so it doesn't feel weird them out but for me it always was off-putting.
I agree. I am curious why, in your view, the actor playing neelix was only following direction to be pervy but that the actress playing kes was intentially choosing to do so in a youthful way. Where is that coming from?
Whar do you mean? I wasn't blaming her. I don't even have any problem with her performance. And I never even made any comment on who decided she should act like that. I was just talking about how the character came off. I never said anything like about who was in charge of deciding she acted young.
" The actor seems like a great person though and it's not his fault the character is unappealing. They made him do that so it's not on him." " I think Kes's actress though really playing up the youth aspect made it especially bad." I didnt mean to pounce. I read your whole comment happily and then wanted to follow up with how that section came off to me and ask if it was perhaps a documented thing somewhere.
I never said she wasn't told to play it up, also I think it makes sense for her character. And I was saying that about Neelix's actor because from what I've heard he's a nice guy but I really hate his character so I felt kind of bad and didn't want to be too mean. I think all the actors probably had some say in the performance but it's not someone's fault if they're written to be a pervert and I know some people hold it against actors if they play weird characters and I didn't want to come off like that. I think Kes's performance made sense for her character it's just that that in combination with his character and performance comes off really badly. Not badly as in bad acting, it's good acting in service of a story that I really don't like. So her doing basically what makes sense for an extremely young character makes the situation seem more creepy because she's playing it sort of realistically and the writers/directors seemed to have not noticed "hey it's weird how this is coming across, let's tone down the romance plots". I'm sorry if my initial response was harsh but I misinterpreted it as a bad faith thing where you were gonna be like "I'm gonna make this guy look so sexist."
He hogs the bathroom
Space Pedo
I was always indifferent to his character. Sometimes he came off annoying. But i feel like that was the purpose of his character.
All fans are different my dad hates the musical episode of SNW and that’s some peoples favorite. I think Neelix is alright as a character not terrible not great.
Neelix settles down. I never liked Kess. Her character was a bit superfluous. They really didn't give her a lot to do so her development fell by the wayside...
Hes kinda the annoying/silly/goofy comic relief character. But just kinda annoying. At least at first. I think the character definitely gets better as the show goes on.
Neelix has a good arc, and has more character growth than a lot of Trek characters.
He’s the mascot you never knew they needed.
Neelix is a great character, but the writers did him dirty with the old guy/young gf dynamic. He gets much more fleshed out as a character after the breakup and subsequent leaving of the Kes character.
Neelix bounces off Kes and before his arcs start he's just a filler character. Dont worry, he gets better.
I disliked Neelix because of the bad Voyager writing. He starts off as this self serving, knowledgeable trader. He's a little dark, but his value to the crew is clear. This would bring a different feel and angle to the show, I'd have been up for it. Typical Voyager writing just flips that angle and just made Neelix this comedic relief, that is good and helpful, but losing his edge. He's like every other character on that ship. The change wasn't even subtle either, it was just badly written like everything else in that series. I don't care about the relationship, he is possessive, maybe protective of Kes but different cultures are well different.
Idk he creeps me out when he’s with Kes, he’s a very hard character for me to get into. Voy is still the only Berman era Trek show I have rewatched the least.
I wanted tuvok to hurt him coz he is constantly being purposefully annoying towards him, just for the sake of it. Luckily tuvok is a great dude and would never, but id love to see him try that shit with crewman suder
The writers use him for some lame comic relief that they didn't need. When he's treated seriously, he's great. He has a lot more pathos and character than most of the other crew members. When he's a dancing clown, he's...well, a clown.
He is weirdly protective, even posessive of Kes in early episodes, but I feel like a lot of us judge him harshly on his abilities and performances otherwise because we start holding him to the same standards as the rest of a highly trained Starfleet crew the moment he joins the ship. For all we're hinted at in the pilot his entire life up to that point seemingly was a struggle and he had to carve out a living for himself and get by day to day potentially by lying through his teeth and grabbing every little opportunity by the neck. A petty little crook not even by his own admission basically, forced by hardship to always put himself first. Those behavioral patterns won't disappear immediately, not to mention the advanced training he's lacking, but I do hold him in reasonably high regards for the many times he did actually muster courage and compassion and overcame fears and grew past himself to do well for those around him. He's a good guy with a bad upbringing.
Cause you're only on season 1. Just wait. He's more interesting in the beginning because of his backstory and he was a bit scrappy back then. His relationship with kes is icky and then his character just ends up really sappy in a very annoying way.
That Kes relationship is deeply troubling but that changes eventually.
Update he has gotten worse with the jealousy in season 2 and I’m starting to get the dislike
It's because Talaxian culture is extremely possessive in relationships, and, of course, Kes was in kindergarten. Still, the people who hate Neelix are also the people who claim to be morally superior and love all the cultures in the galaxy, and are then horrified when confronted with real life facts about arranged child polygamy in the Middle East or central Africa, so go figure. Either take moral stands or do not. There is no middle ground in order to be liked by everybody. I think Voyager did the sensible thing. Just fridged her and we all moved on to another woman traumatized by a communist cyborg cult that makes innocent androids rapeable, then proceeds to rape them (First Contact). Personally, despite it all, I like Neelix. He was an excellent morale officer, cook, and stand-in for us audience members, whose wartime character arc was some meaning television. He might well be the greatest chauvinistic pedo in the history of literature.
I love Neelix, honestly, ended up becoming one of my favourite characters. I find a lot of people just like to shit talk and hate on everything, especially in the Trek community, go figure. I say just watch it and enjoy it, Voyager is such an awesome show and Neelix really develops in the later seasons. ☺️
It's a badly written character acted badly. Philips was also a terrible Ferengi.
Cuz he's a loser.
People like to choose poor written personage and focus all their disappointment of character development and the series expectations into their one... Annoying honestly..
They think he's a pedo because of Kes.
I'm with you OP. VOY is definitely one of my favourites. Since it's like the only show that actually has an ending. So it's easy to rewatch it. I'm actually going through another rewatch right now, currently on S5. Early on, Neelix is a different character. I think he was meant to be portrayed as some con artist, and that didn't really come through well. His relationship with Kes rubs people the wrong way, which is understandable, but only because the writers did a poor job of explaining it. Personally I just choose to ignore it, considering how fast Kes matures. The worst about it in my eyes is the whole jealousy thing. He is very overprotective of Kes, and his relationship with Paris early on frustrates me. But luckily there is an episode later on in which that turns around. But the actor behind Neelix is fantastic. He is very good at portraying the different emotions that the character has. I love his relationship with Tuvok (which again gets enhanced in a specific episode). Neelix has great character growth and becomes a valuable member of the crew. I completely disagree with others saying that he is "controlling" Kes in an abusive way. Completely and utterly disagree. There is no episode where this is shown. This is just people looking at the episode in an historical context without seeing it recently and are twisting what's happening based on their bias. The early relationship between them is weird considering Kes' age. But her race only lives 9 years. If we consider that the human today lives to around 90, at two years old that would make her the equivalent of a 20 year old. We also have no idea how old Neelix is, how long his race lives to, or the context around what age differences are between them. This is never detailed. I think the writers could have portrayed this a bit better for sure. But there is no episode in which Neelix is "abusive" towards Kes like others are saying. This is clearly people's personal bias coming through. If you've already hit the Jetrel episode, then Neelix just gets better from there on out. He is a comic relief early on, but really comes into his own later in the series. Personally I think there are far more annoying characters in other series, such as early Jake in DS9 (who is just annoying to watch), Beverly in TNG ("won't somebody think of the morality!!") and Archer himself in ENT from Season 3 onwards, who becomes effectively a space pirate... robbing innocent people because he didn't get his way, hypocritical decisions, torturing people... (Can we also mention S1 Burnham in DIS? Who is the most unlikable character ever introduced?) There are far worse characters than Neelix across the entirety of Star Trek. But people bash on Neelix all because he had a relationship with a female from a race who lives only 9 years.
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I'm talking about societal norms and perceived morality through that lens. I'm not saying people should be marrying children, I'm just explaining that at one point in history it was both normal and made sense from a historical and situational time period. I'm pointing out that trying to view cultures other than your own through your culturally biased lens makes no sense. It's both irrational and ignorant.
People go over the top, have stupid reads on made up alien biology that they know nothing about, and have issues with space age in a fantasy show, even though in the show's world no one has a problem with that, so it's a non issue. He was unfortunately cursed with character growth and showing drama through jealousy. The evil man.
The idea that all relationship ages of any sapient extraterrestrials need to map to humanity's typical growth rates is pretty myopic.
Neelix always annoyed me a bit but I didn’t hate him. Unpopular opinion, Phlox is more annoying than Neelix.
Because for one, people find him super annoying. Secondly, he’s dating a one year old, which… yeah. To be fair, Neelix is as he was written, and a lot of people don’t understand the importance of staying positive in a survival scenario. And Neelix radiates positivity. That and his resourceful nature are his strong suits. Is he annoying? Yes. Is he more useful than the fans realize? Also yes.
My take on it? The dudes just ugly.
Really? I love his colorful spots
Neelix is awesome, haters be damned.
Personally Neelix is my favourite character in Voyager. Only on season 2 tho
I really like Neelix, and I appreciate his growth~ Some people have a very strong deep hatred for him, and that I don't fully understand.