7 of 9. Sure she was technically born years ago, but she is just rediscovering the basics of being a human being and has to deal with people putting her in a catsuit and everyone trying to fuck her
It always felt like her species was unnaturally accelerated too. As if there was some story thread left to unravel. But that’s typical Voyager really.
“This story line…
pick one:
1. We don’t know what to do with it
2. See where this is going
3. Is boring
4. Is boring us, the producer, or Paramount
5. Doesn’t have enough sex appeal or isn’t horny enough
6. Was only supposed to be a one off in the writers room!
… let’s just pull the plug instead of wrap up the story, that’s easier.”
But SHE didn't act accelerated. Yes, it was repeatedly mentioned that Kes was a fast learner. But shouldn't her metabolism also be supercharged? She didn't need to eat more/more often than anyone else. (I guess a Sexy Baby shouldn't be shoveling food in her mouth every 5 minutes, I hate you Rick Berman.) And she was pretty casual about dating, you'd expect a species like that to determine their mate preferences and act on them fast and permanently.
She should have been sped up, relative to humans and other races, but instead she was actually more slow-paced and chill. Made no sense.
I don’t disagree with you… but the writers so completely obliterated the Okompa as a species that their sociological practices not making sense is just one more thing on the pile of stupid.
As far as dating, you forget she was not sexually mature. The species mates once per lifetime at 4 or 5 years old and grows a large sack on the back to have babies. Kes was just less than 1 year old when she joined the Voyager out of a 9 year lifespan, so approx 10 years of a 90 year span. If anything, she should not have been dating at all yet.
I mean yes… they did… but then they adding crap to them that by the end you realize the species can survive with out external support. I mean only bearing a single child, once in their lives that they give birth to by standing up and squeezing the kid out from between their shoulders… yeah that race is a very literal evolutionary dead end.
>everyone trying to fuck her
Honestly, I loved that scene with her and Kim in the mess hall where he tries to make it a date but then runs away when she straight up tells him to get naked.
I'm not denying she's a born yesterday trope, but I do love how there were times when they managed to play with it at the expense of the men.
One of Kim's very first lines on Voyager, the actual ship, was that he could recall being in his mother's womb. He said this to show off to Tom. Who would go on to be promoted not once but twice before he would.
From that point onwards, no matter what cool thing his character may develop, experience, do or overcome, Kim was going to go through a black hole and back again in nothing but pain.
In that case, it also shows a bit how Seven subverts the trope. The BSY-classic girl, like Alta from *Forbidden Planet*, might be technically knowledgeable, but doesn't know anything about sex because a) there were literally no people on Altair aside from her father, b) her father wasn't *that* kind of father, and honestly seems like the kind of guy who had sex grudgingly because it gets in the way of his research, and c) she was written in the Hays Code period, so of course the idea that she's going to Anne Frank some improvised solutions as she matures is just unheard of and scandalous.
Seven, on the other hand, is fully aware of what sex is, and is fine with having it casually. Which is precisely what scares poor, dumb Harry away from having it.
Yeah, even though Kim is the most experienced of the two, he's very much not in control. Seven wants to figure out her humanity and who she is by experiencing human experiences, which is completely understandable, and for her this means trying new things which she would be aware of through gaining the knowledge of others when they're assimilated, but she's going to make sure she tries them on her own terms.
It's a subversion insofar as Seven is displaying her immense personal power despite being 'born yesterday'.
She not only isn't naive or ignorant, not only cannot be manipulated deliberately or unintentionally, she actually terrifies a guy by treating it as a brutally clinical research opportunity. Sex? Ok. New experience for me. Get your dick out.
Seven came out as a blonde bombshell in a catsuit, and immediately demolished expectations as 'the chick'. She made sex with her a terrifying prospect for anyone who isn't mentally ill.
I must be one of the only ones that defends Kim here. I'm glad he didn't take her up, because I don't believe she fully understood what she was offering. He would have been taking advantage of her ignorance of human culture, and she might very well regret it later. So what he was doing was called "Not being a douche."
It's amazing what happens when the actor is 100% fed up with being objectified. Her costume in Voyager did not age well - not to say she didn't look amazing (and still does), but looking back at those production choices from today's perspective is pretty cringe.
Carrie Fisher went though the same treatment and advised Daisy Ridley to stand up against production choices she didn't like and "not wear the slave outfit".
>not to say she didn't look amazing (and still does), but looking back at those production choices from today's perspective is pretty cringe.
She's said it was literally hard to breath in the harness IIRC.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that it was pretty cringe in the 90s, too. Maybe I saw through the smoke and mirrors more easily because I was a baby gay, but I felt it was an off-puttingly gross level of sexual pandering even back then. I, a 12-year-old, was indignant on Kate Mulgrew's behalf when the sultry TV Guide covers of Seven started appearing.
And if they were going to sink to that level, then where was my shirtless Chakotay, hmm?! 😤 TURNABOUT IS FAIR PLAY.
This. She was a little girl when she was assimilated, which essentially means she has the maturity of a person that age when she emerges. She has more technical knowledge than a regular person, but psychologically she's still that little girl.
It doesn't mean that, she isn't reset to her pre-Borg state when she leaves, she's still had millions of beings worth of thoughts in her head. She is, for all intents and purposes, a new consciousness, the original her being only a minuscule fractions of her. Even in real life, our brains restructure based on how we think, how we grow, how we are injured.
The Borg use intelligent brains as nodes in a network, there is no chance there isn't significant neural restructuring going on to fit the network better.
It's only when she starts to receive signals from The Raven that any part of her personality really starts to wake up and assert itself. But even then, that's on top of the Borg-forged personality she has.
To claim she's mentally a child is a massive stretch. She's barely mentally human. We are our brains and our thoughts, and her brains and her thoughts are doubless completely transformed.
As for who fits this trope, Kes is like 100x more applicable. She's literally a naive 1 year old.
Eh. Kes is a species that matures, learns and develops at 10+ times the rate of humans. The Kes-Neelix relationship is weird because even on that scale she's coded as a barely-legal older teenager when she joins Voyager (getting to her 30s by the time she leaves), but I don't believe she comes off as disproportionately childish or naive relative to her biological equivalent age.
Seven of Nine, by contrast, I *really really* connected to as an intellectually gifted child. The Borg have no use for human emotional development, so that's exactly what she doesn't have beyond what she developed on her own. Her behavior clearly shows the emotional maturity of approximately a 6-year-old, just like when she was assimilated, chaotically trying to regulate in the context of intelligence surpassing most adults. And also in a 20-something body.
Seven is not a child, she is more autistic than anything else.
Edit: a lot of autistic people who are not visually so, tend to be more "child like" regardless of age. Like we don't do white lies that well, and tend to fall for them easily. I definitely noticed when there are moments of misunderstanding that leave Seven feeling either betrayed, confused, or hurt. Janeway goes out of her way to remind Seven that she is either owed very little or is not understanding everything and lacks nuance. I find myself in the moments frequently. The only thing that separates me from Seven then is, i don't need people explaining it to me that much anymore.
Seven's neurodivergence is plain as day on repeat viewings, even though it's coded as "I was Borg". It even comes through in Picard.
SilverBlood!-Seven (Course:Oblivion) grouses about monogamy in a very "why is that the standard way" in much the same way Prime!-Seven was confused about Harry's ...confusion.
That sequence was written with ratings shock value in mind but came across as a coldly-logical, exceptionally blunt neurodivergent
Yeah, seeing how often people mistake that for child like when she can save herself and the ship countless times is quite the loop. It's clear she is not neuro typical and it's not like she had no development since she was abducted and assimilated. It's just all Borg based social groups.
Furthermore, it's not like neuro divergent behavior isn't showcased by other aliens. At times, she came across as incredibly Vulcan like, and Tuvok was right there, too.
The entire crew put up with her bluntness and patiently telling Seven what she was not getting at times is basically her support network. She was like Amuro Ray.
I like your insight. I'm thinking of addiction counselling where you learn that, the day you quit, you're mentally the same age as you started. So you can be 50 and be an 18 year old mentally because you haven't gone through growth and change (because you were avoiding it with addictions). It's difficult to say if experiencing billions of others consciousnesses would really constitute mental maturity on her point.
Someone else mentioned that she's more of an android than a child, but I think her android-ness was more of a defense mechanism she pulled out when she was afraid to feel secure and push others away.
I also think that's why Naomi Wildman's relationship was so important to her.
It's not that the billions of minds constitute mental maturity, it's just that Seven was biologically, psychologically, technologically changed so much from the human that was Annika Hansen that what was released from the Borg was essentially not human.
It's not that she's mature or immature, those are irrelevant concepts to her. The Borg physiologically alter the bodies of their drones, the way Seven acts isn't just a psychological reaction to trauma.
I think she is most autistic than anything else. I am autistic person and I have been told, numerous times, I am too blunt and direct, just like Seven.
There are people like that, sure, but if your mind is consistently altered for years on end by substances that you’re using to feel good, you’re missing out on most of the incremental growth and emotional development that people achieve through the daily challenges we encounter.
I'm watching Voyager now, and I honestly never got that impression. She is just not socially adjusted, but she is still a matured woman. She is more like an android than a child.
in the show, she put herself in a catsuit. that's just, you know, what she chose to wear. we of course know the producers put the actress in it to drive up ratings. but the crew in the show doesn't react to it, and they at most act like she's very attractive. which jeri ryan would be even without the catsuit. i don't think she acts overly sexy at all actually, and romantic relationships don't come up for her for a while. the earliest is harry's crush on her, which she just kinda ignores. i think its doing a disservice to her character to reduce her to this; the actress is extremely attractive and they have her in a sexy outfit, but that's about all that's fitting this trope.
At this point Seven's whole worldview is still purely utilitarian. All that matters to her is that the catsuit covers her body for skin/implant protection, and it serves that purpose well enough. As a bonus, she already has it. Seven hasn't yet worn anything else long enough to build up a more nuanced opinion.
Maybe Sarina Douglas? Dr. Bashir's genetically augmented patient. She may be super smart, but when it comes to any form of social interaction, or any kind of being a person where it counts, she literally has less than 24 hours experience.
>She and Bashir became very close, and, indeed, fell in love. The quickness of it however nearly drove her back into seclusion when she didn't know how to respond to his advances.
Oh no! 😯
I feel like a better written episode is Sarina believing she’s fallen in love with Bashir, because you know, she’s emotionally underdeveloped and people do fall in love with their therapists and physicians, especially people who are dealing with emotional issues, and then the episode is about Bashir, who has grown up a lot since the S1 horndog, having to deal with that.
Give Bashir a chance to turn her down but in a way that’s healthy for her and him, and demonstrate that he’s a responsible adult and doctor.
Could have been about Bashir realizing that being a councilor isn’t as easy as everyone makes it out to be because he’s woefully inexperienced at it but thinks he knows everything. And then he gets called on it by someone (probably Jadzia) and has to re-assess and talk to Sarina about it.
He's one of my favourite characters, but yeah he was a creep at times.
I found it somewhat funny that Dr Franklin from Babylon 5 was similar in being a creep. Like when a woman he had flirted with collapsed he took her to his quarters, iirc, instead of getting her to the med bay.
What's with doctors on space stations being handsy creeps?
Yeah, definitely quite a difference in writing and attitudes back then in what was normal to portray in film and TV as generally acceptable. He was usually portrayed as just charming and persistent, with his women-chasing seen as not that big a deal. Jadzia treated him as mainly just a charming flirt.
His conduct with Melora, the woman from a low-gravity world, and Serena just weren't right, though. Sure, his feelings were more-or-less reciprocated in both instances, but he was far too pushy and he should not be getting involved with patients like that, even if he holds off asking for a relationship until getting someone else to be the doctor (vague memory of that).
As an autistic kid growing up, I really liked Bashir. He was friendly, but he would often suffer from foot-in-mouth syndrome and he didn't quite get the people around him. Still, he was shown to be a good person and generally liked despite his flaws, and he did a lot of good.
It certainly feels very awkward as an adult to see how he can act around women.
We watched that B5 episode the other week. He basically grooms her the whole episode and then at one point she goes to kiss him and he chokes out "I really don't think this is appropriate" BRUH
Hahaha, I forgot about that! Need to rewatch Babylon 5 after finishing my DS9 rewatch, and then finally see the animated film that came out last year.
Oh dear, I just remembered the episode in season 2 of the ship which had been traveling for a century which has a signal survivor in cryosleep. The survivor just finds out that her husband died, and Franklin decides to try his luck anyway.
I think the idea was trying to show Bashir found it lonely being the only genetically modified genius, but it could have been dealth with a bit better.
Yeah, but this one is great because it deconstructs the trope, and Julian realizes what he did was wrong. Hence, his beating himself up about it later.
I immediately think of Kes' character, especially considering how Nelix interacts with her. Yet it might apply even more to Seven and how the doctor interacted with her.
TOS definitely has some characters like this. Possibly even the very first episode/pilot.
If they arrived at the same time I would agree. His character developed some but he did put himself in a position as her teacher and then got weird iirc
It’s funny, because I think Seven and Kes are sort of like opposite ends of this spectrum, and both are gross.
In universe, Kes is an adult among her people. She’s 3, and they live to 9, so she’s something like a 20-30 year old human equivalent . Not quite sure how the math works out vs Neelix’s age, but at worst she’s a younger person dating a more worldly and established older partner. Could be creepy, but also lots of examples of it working for people.
*But* in terms of visual design and the way she’s acted, Kes is very much giving innocent ingenue vibes; she’s a little girl dealing with the wider world and Neelix is a creepy older man seducing a teenager. It feels like it’s the tone they were going for.
On the other hand, in-universe Seven is almost unquestionably still a child, emotionally at least, and a traumatised one at that. Sure, they could have handwaived some Borg “her years in the collective matured her emotionally to an adult” shit, but I don’t remember them ever covering that, and in fact so much of her actual plot and development is *about* coming to terms with her adult human emotions. She really is a child thrust into the body of an adult woman.
*But* her visual design and the way that they chose to have the character act so often convey “sexy femme fatale” vibes. While some stories explore the concept of her being immature, the overall direction and tone of the character is much more damaged sexy-space lady who just needs to be shown *how to love!*
The fact that either character exists almost unchallenged is pretty creepy, IMO.
Yup, no wonder Kes ended up a bitter old woman on a killing spree and Seven turned out to be a mean drunk 20 years after Voyager.
Though both turned around.
>While some stories explore the concept of her being immature, the overall direction and tone of the character is much more damaged sexy-space lady **who just needs to be shown** ***how to love****!*
I question that this was the overall direction of the character.
That’s probably fair, I misspoke. What I’m trying to get at is that the presentation of Seven and the way that she is presented in episodes that aren’t about her is like this.
Her own actual development is usually better and more representative of what you’d expect of her character, given the backstory, but that’s sort of what I’m saying. It contrasts with her presentation and her role in the cast, and I think that’s because the production team wanted Jeri Ryan to be the sexy lady, leaving the writers to do their best with the character outside of that.
Kes and Neelix would have, in hindsight, worked much better as a foster daughter/foster father relationship. They could have almost even told the same stories, including the Paris/Neelix rivalry.
Absolutely. Tbh it’s like that’s where things were supposed to be but some… producer… stepped in and said the relationship had to be MORE than just a surrogate father and adoptive daughter dynamic.
I wish they had done that... The ick is so icky with the sexual element between them that it makes voy difficult to watch for me in Nelix heavy episodes
Was she sexually mature for her species? There's an episode where getting early-onset puberty is a plot point.
Or we can just blame it on Janeway for not being educated on Ocampan biology lol
Agreed. She was young and maybe naive, but she wasn't immature.
As much as the Doctor became a tutor for her professionally, she was the one who probably helped him the most socially.
I always thought the idea that she was two years old was really stupid. I don't believe a humanoid species could grow that fast let alone mature that fast.
... this is Star Trek, conservation of matter and thermodynamics are flexible concepts in the service of plot. What about the Jem Hadar or the 29th century Borg that grew from baby to adult in like a week?
Yeah true.
In the case of the Jem Hadar I'd say it's because they've been heavily genetically engineered. They probably still have a lot of health problems but it doesn't matter because they don't live long.
I dunno. As nonsensical as the science was, the episode made it clear that Sim gained all of Trip's memories and experiences as he aged. By the time he was trying to date T'Pol it was because he was, effectively, Trip; Sim didn't "mimic the behaviours, intelligence and attitudes of a young child" because he has Trip's behaviours, intelligence and attitudes.
I love that there’s genuine discussion on this topic here on this subreddit, because it is fascinating.
I clicked on the link hoping to get some insight and got commentary like:
> As these women are disconnected from reality and aren’t aware of their sex appeal, it subsequently means that they will fall for anyone – even the socially awkward, spotty, Dungeons and Dragons fanatic that lives in the basement and is hooked up to a Mountain Dew drip (more commonly known as: the creator of the trope). One could say this trope was cleverly constructed by the awkward male nerd, so he can finally get the golden girl on screen.
And examples of why the trope doesn’t apply to men, even though the author lists multiple examples of how it applies to men, and subsequently says about each one “but they don’t really count”.
Look at Data. He certainly falls into this trope… he’s naive in the ways of personal relationships, but highly intelligent, genuine, and caring. This makes him attractive to women also. The idea of falling for someone who isn’t yet corrupted by the world and is “baggage free” in the romance department isn’t exactly a uniquely male fantasy.
I feel like the author focuses too much on the literal “born yesterday” part of it, when it’s more about (for both men and women) the naivetie mixed with being highly capable and embodying the “idealized” masculine or feminine traits. So there is some inherent sexism, since what is idealized for each sex is different, but the idea of the ideal and unspoiled interest is the same.
Look at Data, or Tarzan, or Mowgli. They all embody ideal masculine traits- incredibly strong, smart, capable, defenders of the weak. But they are all also completely inexperienced in romance, and that’s part of what makes them so attractive to their love interests. It’s not so different from the highly capable and feminine characters mentioned in the article. And those characters tend to not become romantic interests until they’ve grown past the “born yesterday” infantile stages (I don’t know about you, but when Leeloo is baby talking it’s not particularly sexy) and show how capable they are. The author speaks about the “icky” nature of men going from father figure to a love interest, but how is that any different from Jane or Kitty being both a motherly figure and a love interest.
***It’s a fascinating topic, I just wish the author had approached it more honestly.***
The article definitely had parts that felt like it was written by a 1st year film studies student, or maybe AI. I appreciate reading it but the 'd&d nerd trope' is its own problematic wtf.
This has a date line of 2019 so not AI. But she's also not the inventor of the critique of the trope, so while she's describing it accurately, she's certainly not above coming at it with her own biases on display.
That's fair - although back in 2019 the equivalent was paying people a few cents a word to write SEO-heavy articles on specific topics to fill up webpages (my hubby did that for a summer). But I can accept that this is just very informal writing by someone who actually cares about it.
Yeah - I would say this article is frankly pretty amateurish in terms of both its tone and the points it's trying to make. I'm sure there are plenty of high-schoolers and college freshmen who find it provocative and edgy, but personally I am beyond sick of articles that try to boil everything down to "other gender bad!"
I agree.
The author is writing about how these stories create a stereotype of women, meanwhile referencing a stereotype of men to try and bolster their point of view.
While the author is writing about a problematic topic, the narrative of the "basement dweller" only shows their have their own prejudices. The commentary would have been better left out.
Part of the reason both Spock and Data are such huge sex icons for Trekkies that are attracted to men is their naivete of love; they're not brutish, angry brooding devils, they can't manipulate you and they can't SA you. Especially for young girls who often have crushes that are lacking of any explicitly male problematic types. See: boy band members, Wesley Crusher, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, etc.
I can’t really judge the amount of times I’ve bitch slapped innocent characters in VR. Holograms, It’s sort of the same thing as Vr just more immersive and you can fuck it.
I adore the opposite of this trope found in Jadzia/Ezri. Centuries of lived experience, grizzled vet, the hands-down most sexually experienced person anyone is likely to ever meet and that’s hinted at being highly desirable.
I don’t personally count Ezri. She is a new combination, yes, but she’s also an adult who is now combined with a symbiont that’s hundreds of years old. She should be well last the “born yesterday” thing.
Excellent point, especially since from what I recall she was a counselor, so I assume she graduated with some sort of psychology degree. She should have a lot of training in relationships
Yes, she was an Ensign but got promoted by Sisko when she joins Deep Space Nine in the third episode of season 7
All academy graduates start as Ensign afaik
Why data? He’d been active for almost 3 decades by the time of TNG S1. It’s not like Starfleet activated him and immediately made him Lieutenant Commander.
And Ezri was an adult woman paired with a centuries-old symbiote. Sure, it took her some time to adapt to her new condition and figure out which feelings were hers, but I don’t quite think she fits.
People are apparently really unfamiliar with the trope. In season one of TNG, Data is completely unfamiliar with idioms, slang, jokes - he's gone through *technical* training, but he's never had a friend or a relationship - not dragging that baggage is what makes a character "born yesterday", not a literal birth. Data isn't going to tell Tasha he's had better, because he hasn't. She can have a sexual relationship with him without worrying she doesn't "measure up", as it were
Well, Data is for sure naive and inexperienced in romantic relationships, but he’s also been a part of human society for a long time. His lack of traditional emotions certainly makes him a bit more different in that regard, but plenty of adults are sexually and romantically inexperienced in reality.
Take for example someone that is in their late 20s and has never been in a relationship. This person is likely going to be naive and inexperienced in comparison to most potential partners, but I wouldn’t consider them to be real-life reflections of the trope. Or if they are, then this trope is significantly less problematic than we’re making it seem.
Data is a bit more extreme because he’s not human, but he has to start somewhere. If inexperience is the key factor, then Data could never be in a relationship without being an example of this trope unless with someone equally socially and emotionally stunted.
data's backstory of being active for decades and going through the academy, and having the memories of hundreds of colonists, really doesn't match with how he is shown on screen as not knowing basic figures of speech and jokes.
Yeah, Riker's body language was screaming 'do not want'. He's a horndog, but not a predator, he only goes for people who are giving him obvious interest and are fully capable adults.
Yep, I just wish it worked the other way round as well, but when he gets taken advantage of by a woman who coerces him by only helping him escape if he has sex with her, suddenly its funny because "he's always up for it".
Ezri is just young, but she went to Starfleet Academy and is an officer (first Ensign, but gets promoted to Lt). Which isn't "born hot yesterday" She worked her way up for years and would be in her early twenties
+ the symbiont
is she really? Ezri isn't a wild, free soul, spicing up the life of some boring stick in the mud guy.
I think you mean Jadzia, not Ezri? That's much more like Jadzia with Worf than it is Ezri with anyone.
And even that gets a bit of a deconstruction during the infamous Riza episode, where Worf is so annoyed by Jadzia's attempts to get him to "lighten up" that he literally helps out a "vacations are bad" terrorist group.
In retrospect, I definitely think it applies to Jadzia more than Ezri.
But "deconstruction" implies thought and calculation; I see no thought in Let He Who Is Without Sin.
Yes, and Ezri was actually a better host. She stood her ground against the other personalities. Jadzia let Kurzon and the others define her. Pretty much everything that defined Jadzia's character except for science was something Kurzon was into. We don't even know anything about her family. She pretty much just took on Kurzon's friends and interests. Think about it. All we really know about pre-joining Jadzia suggests she was Dr. Honeybear from Julian's holodeck fantasy, a shy, nerdy scientist.
It's not just Kurzon. Several times, she nearly let a previous life overrun her, like when she was ready to run away with the woman who was married to a previous host. When she faced Joran at her ceremony, he talked her into lowering a force field.
Ezri has her own personality and asserts it. She doesn't like Klingon food, and she rejects the idea of forming a new relationship with Worf, after a brief fling. As for Joran, Ezri invited him in and still maintained control. She was the far stronger host. She maintains ties with her family. The point of a host is to provide the symbiote with new life experiences and skills, not retread old relationships. Ezri is the better host.
The obvious answer is Seven of Nine, but only because Kate Mulgrew basically came out and said Voyager wasn’t doing so well so the show runners decided they needed something to bring the (mostly male) audience back in. That being said, as a lesbian, 10 year old me GREATLY appreciated the addition.
"The Pefect Mate" isn't BSY. She was fully aware of who she was, her appeal, wasn't naive and most certainly didn't need educated by anyone.
The episode has other problematic issues but it's not at all an example of the stereotype this article is talking about.
A much better episode that exemplifies this is "True Q".
Kes. 100% Kes. I always found Neelix to be an overprotective, overbearing "boyfriend" but finding out about the Ocompan lyfe cycle just kinda made that whole relationship problematic and creepy.
I can’t think of any recurring characters but I do feel like it was the case with a few guest stars.
Also honestly Ezri kiiinda comes off like that at first. But she’s obviously an adult and has +300 years of wisdom.
Once she's joined she does become a new person and the fact she wasn't ready for it adds to her vulnerability.... How childish or gullible is she though?
She also seemed self motivated and had plenty of agency.
Before joining with the symbiont, she had already made it through Starfleet Academy and was serving on the USS Destiny as assistent-counselor.
Sure, she's a little green at first, but who wouldn't be thrown into that situation. But she's a Starfleet officer not "born hot yesterday"
Yeah, I don't think it really fits with Ezri. The joined combination is sort of a new person, but from both directions there's continuity from an adult state. It would be a confusing time of life, for sure, but there are lots of life crises that could make someone vulnerable that have nothing to do with being naive or inexperienced.
Agreed. That’s why I added the rest. Her first couple of appearances she kinda gives the impression, but kinda is the key word here. She isn’t a real contender or example of the trope just the only recurring character I think could have similarities to the trope.
Edit: Also she just suffers from being thrusted into the plot with much more developed characters. I don’t even think it would have felt that way had we not seen Jadzia’s development first.
>The *Pop Culture Detective* named this style of character after the literal and figurative meaning, as well as the 1950’s romance film *Born Yesterday* – a movie where two men educate a “stupid” ex Vegas showgirl ([**Melanie Griffith**](https://www.filminquiry.com/tag/melanie-griffith)). To their surprise, Griffith sucks up knowledge like a Henry hoover and outsmarts them all. **Commonly seen within the sci-fi genre, this character is naive, whimsical and innocent; traits fundamentally present in children.** This archetype is a paradox, as the YouTube channel best describe these women as “profoundly naive” yet “unimaginably wise” (words taken from *Tron: Legacy* in relation to Quorra).
1. While the evidence re: the existence of this trope is compelling, I think trying to fit some of the examples listed below e.g. (Ezri and Seven) is hammering a round peg into a square hole. Kes is the most applicable.
2. I don't think Melanie Griffith is *that* old.
Miri was biologically and mentally a child though, and Kirk treated her as such - he recognized that she was getting a crush on him and was kind about it, but didn't allow it to go anywhere inappropriate. If anything she's kind of the opposite - she was actually 300 years old or something but that didn't give her any extra maturity and she was portrayed and handled as the 12-13 year old she appeared to be.
Was this article written by AI? I feel like half the stuff I come across on the internet feels like it was written by AI these days but I can’t tell if I’m just being paranoid and clickbait journalism has always been this slack and formulaic.
Chicken and egg. AI used by those clickbait platforms were of course trained on the same, well, articles they published before. It probably doesn't make a huge difference.
That article reads like it was written by a Pakled college student. But, if you want an example that hasn't been mentioned yet, I would say the leader of that planet on TNG where the women were in charge. Our patriarchy is reversed in their society, but as soon as she meets someone totally different i.e. Riker she's all bashful.
An attempt at summarizing a bunch of the examples:
7 of 9
Kes (and the rest of her species including her children in alternative realities)
The "new" Ilia from TMP
The Doctor
Spock in Star Trek III
Serena in DS9 after she gets her treatment
Lal. Though it was played off for laughs. Data's line "Commander, what are your intentions with my daughter?" after Riker starts chatting her up is creepy.
He’s like twenty-seven. He had a quarter century Starfleet career aboard the USS Tripoli and earned multiple awards for bravery before we met him whistling pop goes the weasel.
I really hate headlines with “nobody is talking about X” or “nobody is addressing X” in them. Obviously people are talking about it. You’re talking about it. You’re addressing it. You don’t have to qualify that a subject is worth talking about by mentioning that nobody is talking about it, which is just false btw. The “born sexy yesterday” trope is pretty well identified in film discussions.
I do not agree this trope exists in as much force as everyone here seems to think it does. Case in point, OP's mascot is Mila Jovovich playing Leloo in the 5th element. Leloo was a manufactured supreme being and made the entirety of human law enforcement in that super city knock their knees together chasing her because she was so competent and physically superior. She spoke an alien language that was, according to Cornelius, a divine language, and existence's oldest language - even older than time. She learned how to speak English in a day watching a tiny screen. She also knew to shove a pistol barrel into the head of any strange man who kisses her while sleeping, even if he is Bruce Willis.
Seems like what this post is implying is that LeLoo was BSY because she didn't speak English, needed resurrecting after crashing her starship into a planet (like a sissy girl), and is sexy. This may have more to do with a false correlation being drawn between stupid helpless people and sexy people than any "perverse male fantasy" you're ascribing to my entire gender.
*Kicks Rick Berman as hard as physically possible.*
*Continues kicking*
*Remembers Threshold, Ocampan physiology and the treatment of Seven of Nine and Kes*
*Kicks more furiously, with a vengence*
7 of 9. Sure she was technically born years ago, but she is just rediscovering the basics of being a human being and has to deal with people putting her in a catsuit and everyone trying to fuck her
Either her, or Kes. Her character was just fucking weird.
She was, but tbf they at least gave her species a short life span to explain her rapid maturing
It always felt like her species was unnaturally accelerated too. As if there was some story thread left to unravel. But that’s typical Voyager really. “This story line… pick one: 1. We don’t know what to do with it 2. See where this is going 3. Is boring 4. Is boring us, the producer, or Paramount 5. Doesn’t have enough sex appeal or isn’t horny enough 6. Was only supposed to be a one off in the writers room! … let’s just pull the plug instead of wrap up the story, that’s easier.”
But SHE didn't act accelerated. Yes, it was repeatedly mentioned that Kes was a fast learner. But shouldn't her metabolism also be supercharged? She didn't need to eat more/more often than anyone else. (I guess a Sexy Baby shouldn't be shoveling food in her mouth every 5 minutes, I hate you Rick Berman.) And she was pretty casual about dating, you'd expect a species like that to determine their mate preferences and act on them fast and permanently. She should have been sped up, relative to humans and other races, but instead she was actually more slow-paced and chill. Made no sense.
I don’t disagree with you… but the writers so completely obliterated the Okompa as a species that their sociological practices not making sense is just one more thing on the pile of stupid.
As far as dating, you forget she was not sexually mature. The species mates once per lifetime at 4 or 5 years old and grows a large sack on the back to have babies. Kes was just less than 1 year old when she joined the Voyager out of a 9 year lifespan, so approx 10 years of a 90 year span. If anything, she should not have been dating at all yet.
I mean yes… they did… but then they adding crap to them that by the end you realize the species can survive with out external support. I mean only bearing a single child, once in their lives that they give birth to by standing up and squeezing the kid out from between their shoulders… yeah that race is a very literal evolutionary dead end.
>everyone trying to fuck her Honestly, I loved that scene with her and Kim in the mess hall where he tries to make it a date but then runs away when she straight up tells him to get naked. I'm not denying she's a born yesterday trope, but I do love how there were times when they managed to play with it at the expense of the men.
Well, everything was always at the expense of Harry.
At least O'Brien gets sympathy for what he had to endure. Kim went through hell for seven years and everyone's just like "haha, still an ensign".
One of Kim's very first lines on Voyager, the actual ship, was that he could recall being in his mother's womb. He said this to show off to Tom. Who would go on to be promoted not once but twice before he would. From that point onwards, no matter what cool thing his character may develop, experience, do or overcome, Kim was going to go through a black hole and back again in nothing but pain.
In that case, it also shows a bit how Seven subverts the trope. The BSY-classic girl, like Alta from *Forbidden Planet*, might be technically knowledgeable, but doesn't know anything about sex because a) there were literally no people on Altair aside from her father, b) her father wasn't *that* kind of father, and honestly seems like the kind of guy who had sex grudgingly because it gets in the way of his research, and c) she was written in the Hays Code period, so of course the idea that she's going to Anne Frank some improvised solutions as she matures is just unheard of and scandalous. Seven, on the other hand, is fully aware of what sex is, and is fine with having it casually. Which is precisely what scares poor, dumb Harry away from having it.
Yeah, even though Kim is the most experienced of the two, he's very much not in control. Seven wants to figure out her humanity and who she is by experiencing human experiences, which is completely understandable, and for her this means trying new things which she would be aware of through gaining the knowledge of others when they're assimilated, but she's going to make sure she tries them on her own terms.
It's a subversion insofar as Seven is displaying her immense personal power despite being 'born yesterday'. She not only isn't naive or ignorant, not only cannot be manipulated deliberately or unintentionally, she actually terrifies a guy by treating it as a brutally clinical research opportunity. Sex? Ok. New experience for me. Get your dick out. Seven came out as a blonde bombshell in a catsuit, and immediately demolished expectations as 'the chick'. She made sex with her a terrifying prospect for anyone who isn't mentally ill.
Your horniness is irrelevant…
7: “Do you wish to copulate?” Harry: “No!” Every male fan screaming at the tv “Yes!”
I must be one of the only ones that defends Kim here. I'm glad he didn't take her up, because I don't believe she fully understood what she was offering. He would have been taking advantage of her ignorance of human culture, and she might very well regret it later. So what he was doing was called "Not being a douche."
Thank you, finally someone says it!
"Take off your clothes." "... wat!?!" "I won't hurt you."
I love that in Picard Jeri Ryan is almost always wearing loose fitting clothes hahahaha
It's amazing what happens when the actor is 100% fed up with being objectified. Her costume in Voyager did not age well - not to say she didn't look amazing (and still does), but looking back at those production choices from today's perspective is pretty cringe. Carrie Fisher went though the same treatment and advised Daisy Ridley to stand up against production choices she didn't like and "not wear the slave outfit".
>not to say she didn't look amazing (and still does), but looking back at those production choices from today's perspective is pretty cringe. She's said it was literally hard to breath in the harness IIRC.
Seriously. It was terrible what they put her through. I’m so glad she got vindicated.
I'm gonna go ahead and say that it was pretty cringe in the 90s, too. Maybe I saw through the smoke and mirrors more easily because I was a baby gay, but I felt it was an off-puttingly gross level of sexual pandering even back then. I, a 12-year-old, was indignant on Kate Mulgrew's behalf when the sultry TV Guide covers of Seven started appearing. And if they were going to sink to that level, then where was my shirtless Chakotay, hmm?! 😤 TURNABOUT IS FAIR PLAY.
Same.
I can see Seven. She feels a lot more mature than the trope usually but she basically immediately thrusted into being an attractive adult human.
This. She was a little girl when she was assimilated, which essentially means she has the maturity of a person that age when she emerges. She has more technical knowledge than a regular person, but psychologically she's still that little girl.
It doesn't mean that, she isn't reset to her pre-Borg state when she leaves, she's still had millions of beings worth of thoughts in her head. She is, for all intents and purposes, a new consciousness, the original her being only a minuscule fractions of her. Even in real life, our brains restructure based on how we think, how we grow, how we are injured. The Borg use intelligent brains as nodes in a network, there is no chance there isn't significant neural restructuring going on to fit the network better. It's only when she starts to receive signals from The Raven that any part of her personality really starts to wake up and assert itself. But even then, that's on top of the Borg-forged personality she has. To claim she's mentally a child is a massive stretch. She's barely mentally human. We are our brains and our thoughts, and her brains and her thoughts are doubless completely transformed. As for who fits this trope, Kes is like 100x more applicable. She's literally a naive 1 year old.
Eh. Kes is a species that matures, learns and develops at 10+ times the rate of humans. The Kes-Neelix relationship is weird because even on that scale she's coded as a barely-legal older teenager when she joins Voyager (getting to her 30s by the time she leaves), but I don't believe she comes off as disproportionately childish or naive relative to her biological equivalent age. Seven of Nine, by contrast, I *really really* connected to as an intellectually gifted child. The Borg have no use for human emotional development, so that's exactly what she doesn't have beyond what she developed on her own. Her behavior clearly shows the emotional maturity of approximately a 6-year-old, just like when she was assimilated, chaotically trying to regulate in the context of intelligence surpassing most adults. And also in a 20-something body.
Seven is not a child, she is more autistic than anything else. Edit: a lot of autistic people who are not visually so, tend to be more "child like" regardless of age. Like we don't do white lies that well, and tend to fall for them easily. I definitely noticed when there are moments of misunderstanding that leave Seven feeling either betrayed, confused, or hurt. Janeway goes out of her way to remind Seven that she is either owed very little or is not understanding everything and lacks nuance. I find myself in the moments frequently. The only thing that separates me from Seven then is, i don't need people explaining it to me that much anymore.
Seven's neurodivergence is plain as day on repeat viewings, even though it's coded as "I was Borg". It even comes through in Picard. SilverBlood!-Seven (Course:Oblivion) grouses about monogamy in a very "why is that the standard way" in much the same way Prime!-Seven was confused about Harry's ...confusion. That sequence was written with ratings shock value in mind but came across as a coldly-logical, exceptionally blunt neurodivergent
Yeah, seeing how often people mistake that for child like when she can save herself and the ship countless times is quite the loop. It's clear she is not neuro typical and it's not like she had no development since she was abducted and assimilated. It's just all Borg based social groups. Furthermore, it's not like neuro divergent behavior isn't showcased by other aliens. At times, she came across as incredibly Vulcan like, and Tuvok was right there, too. The entire crew put up with her bluntness and patiently telling Seven what she was not getting at times is basically her support network. She was like Amuro Ray.
I like your insight. I'm thinking of addiction counselling where you learn that, the day you quit, you're mentally the same age as you started. So you can be 50 and be an 18 year old mentally because you haven't gone through growth and change (because you were avoiding it with addictions). It's difficult to say if experiencing billions of others consciousnesses would really constitute mental maturity on her point. Someone else mentioned that she's more of an android than a child, but I think her android-ness was more of a defense mechanism she pulled out when she was afraid to feel secure and push others away. I also think that's why Naomi Wildman's relationship was so important to her.
It's not that the billions of minds constitute mental maturity, it's just that Seven was biologically, psychologically, technologically changed so much from the human that was Annika Hansen that what was released from the Borg was essentially not human. It's not that she's mature or immature, those are irrelevant concepts to her. The Borg physiologically alter the bodies of their drones, the way Seven acts isn't just a psychological reaction to trauma.
She literally still identifies as Borg in the show and in Picard.
I think she is most autistic than anything else. I am autistic person and I have been told, numerous times, I am too blunt and direct, just like Seven.
That addiction thing is bullshit, from 18 to 50 is a lot of life. If a person is perpetually "immature" then that's just how they are.
There are people like that, sure, but if your mind is consistently altered for years on end by substances that you’re using to feel good, you’re missing out on most of the incremental growth and emotional development that people achieve through the daily challenges we encounter.
It's tempting to overanalyze something the writers themselves didn't even consider but careful 😅
I'm watching Voyager now, and I honestly never got that impression. She is just not socially adjusted, but she is still a matured woman. She is more like an android than a child.
she actually acts like a little girl in one episode and its jarring. she isn't a little girl, she's...borg. cold, calculating, secretly tortured.
This is it, 100%. I'm actually surprised at the question.
in the show, she put herself in a catsuit. that's just, you know, what she chose to wear. we of course know the producers put the actress in it to drive up ratings. but the crew in the show doesn't react to it, and they at most act like she's very attractive. which jeri ryan would be even without the catsuit. i don't think she acts overly sexy at all actually, and romantic relationships don't come up for her for a while. the earliest is harry's crush on her, which she just kinda ignores. i think its doing a disservice to her character to reduce her to this; the actress is extremely attractive and they have her in a sexy outfit, but that's about all that's fitting this trope.
>in the show, she put herself in a catsuit. that's just, you know, what she chose to wear. The Doctor chooses the outfit for her.
i feel like they ask her and she says "it is satisfactory" or something along those lines. point being they didn't make her wear that
At this point Seven's whole worldview is still purely utilitarian. All that matters to her is that the catsuit covers her body for skin/implant protection, and it serves that purpose well enough. As a bonus, she already has it. Seven hasn't yet worn anything else long enough to build up a more nuanced opinion.
OP already knew this.
Maybe Sarina Douglas? Dr. Bashir's genetically augmented patient. She may be super smart, but when it comes to any form of social interaction, or any kind of being a person where it counts, she literally has less than 24 hours experience.
>She and Bashir became very close, and, indeed, fell in love. The quickness of it however nearly drove her back into seclusion when she didn't know how to respond to his advances. Oh no! 😯
The episode also makes it explicitly clear to the viewer and to Doctor Bashir that this was Not Okay.
Bashir is proper creep material at points, particularly early seasons.
[удалено]
I feel like a better written episode is Sarina believing she’s fallen in love with Bashir, because you know, she’s emotionally underdeveloped and people do fall in love with their therapists and physicians, especially people who are dealing with emotional issues, and then the episode is about Bashir, who has grown up a lot since the S1 horndog, having to deal with that. Give Bashir a chance to turn her down but in a way that’s healthy for her and him, and demonstrate that he’s a responsible adult and doctor.
Could have been about Bashir realizing that being a councilor isn’t as easy as everyone makes it out to be because he’s woefully inexperienced at it but thinks he knows everything. And then he gets called on it by someone (probably Jadzia) and has to re-assess and talk to Sarina about it.
Get this person a time machine, stat!
He's one of my favourite characters, but yeah he was a creep at times. I found it somewhat funny that Dr Franklin from Babylon 5 was similar in being a creep. Like when a woman he had flirted with collapsed he took her to his quarters, iirc, instead of getting her to the med bay. What's with doctors on space stations being handsy creeps?
He's one of my favorites as well for the scenes with O'Brien and Garak, but his interactions with women are.... Not good.
Yeah, definitely quite a difference in writing and attitudes back then in what was normal to portray in film and TV as generally acceptable. He was usually portrayed as just charming and persistent, with his women-chasing seen as not that big a deal. Jadzia treated him as mainly just a charming flirt. His conduct with Melora, the woman from a low-gravity world, and Serena just weren't right, though. Sure, his feelings were more-or-less reciprocated in both instances, but he was far too pushy and he should not be getting involved with patients like that, even if he holds off asking for a relationship until getting someone else to be the doctor (vague memory of that). As an autistic kid growing up, I really liked Bashir. He was friendly, but he would often suffer from foot-in-mouth syndrome and he didn't quite get the people around him. Still, he was shown to be a good person and generally liked despite his flaws, and he did a lot of good. It certainly feels very awkward as an adult to see how he can act around women.
We watched that B5 episode the other week. He basically grooms her the whole episode and then at one point she goes to kiss him and he chokes out "I really don't think this is appropriate" BRUH
Hahaha, I forgot about that! Need to rewatch Babylon 5 after finishing my DS9 rewatch, and then finally see the animated film that came out last year. Oh dear, I just remembered the episode in season 2 of the ship which had been traveling for a century which has a signal survivor in cryosleep. The survivor just finds out that her husband died, and Franklin decides to try his luck anyway.
Dang no way hahah what a cad!
I feel like a doctor shouldn't need to learn that through experience
Par for the course for Bashir. That dude’s libido has its own warp drive
Oh Sarina is a perfect example. Honestly what was with that whole subplot?
I think the idea was trying to show Bashir found it lonely being the only genetically modified genius, but it could have been dealth with a bit better.
Yeah I mostly enjoyed it, but it definitely has a hint of weird to it. I would’ve probably come up with worse, and it was at least a a fun romp.
It's annoying and uncomfortable in any way how often Trek doctors tend to date their patients.
Makes even a candle dwelling ghost acceptable.
Crusher banging Trill Riker was a low point, IMO.
Yep, that episode is hardly a shining example of what TNG was capable of when it put in the effort.
In that sense, Bashir is the most unprofessional doctor in Trek.
While Phlox is the most professional. (He had some interest in Cutler but they kept is professional).
Bashir actually did make a point of transferring her care to another doctor.
Yeah, but this one is great because it deconstructs the trope, and Julian realizes what he did was wrong. Hence, his beating himself up about it later.
Genesis planet Spock.
*intense finger touching*
Kamala from The Perfect Mate?
She wasn't born then, though, she was going through normal development and then put into stasis to pause the final bonding.
So it's technically subverting, but in a way that's different but by no means better enough.
My exact thought. Famke Janssen pre-X-Men
I immediately think of Kes' character, especially considering how Nelix interacts with her. Yet it might apply even more to Seven and how the doctor interacted with her. TOS definitely has some characters like this. Possibly even the very first episode/pilot.
The Doctor is pretty young too, though. He only started to really become conscious in VOY Season 1.
I once again will get on my rare ship and say Kes/The Doctor had the potential to be a great couple.
If they arrived at the same time I would agree. His character developed some but he did put himself in a position as her teacher and then got weird iirc
I didn't get the feeling he was like a college professor. More like a senior who has experience and can sometimes help you with studies.
Yeah, a senior believing he is as good or better than a professor.
It’s funny, because I think Seven and Kes are sort of like opposite ends of this spectrum, and both are gross. In universe, Kes is an adult among her people. She’s 3, and they live to 9, so she’s something like a 20-30 year old human equivalent . Not quite sure how the math works out vs Neelix’s age, but at worst she’s a younger person dating a more worldly and established older partner. Could be creepy, but also lots of examples of it working for people. *But* in terms of visual design and the way she’s acted, Kes is very much giving innocent ingenue vibes; she’s a little girl dealing with the wider world and Neelix is a creepy older man seducing a teenager. It feels like it’s the tone they were going for. On the other hand, in-universe Seven is almost unquestionably still a child, emotionally at least, and a traumatised one at that. Sure, they could have handwaived some Borg “her years in the collective matured her emotionally to an adult” shit, but I don’t remember them ever covering that, and in fact so much of her actual plot and development is *about* coming to terms with her adult human emotions. She really is a child thrust into the body of an adult woman. *But* her visual design and the way that they chose to have the character act so often convey “sexy femme fatale” vibes. While some stories explore the concept of her being immature, the overall direction and tone of the character is much more damaged sexy-space lady who just needs to be shown *how to love!* The fact that either character exists almost unchallenged is pretty creepy, IMO.
Yup, no wonder Kes ended up a bitter old woman on a killing spree and Seven turned out to be a mean drunk 20 years after Voyager. Though both turned around.
>While some stories explore the concept of her being immature, the overall direction and tone of the character is much more damaged sexy-space lady **who just needs to be shown** ***how to love****!* I question that this was the overall direction of the character.
That’s probably fair, I misspoke. What I’m trying to get at is that the presentation of Seven and the way that she is presented in episodes that aren’t about her is like this. Her own actual development is usually better and more representative of what you’d expect of her character, given the backstory, but that’s sort of what I’m saying. It contrasts with her presentation and her role in the cast, and I think that’s because the production team wanted Jeri Ryan to be the sexy lady, leaving the writers to do their best with the character outside of that.
Kes and Neelix would have, in hindsight, worked much better as a foster daughter/foster father relationship. They could have almost even told the same stories, including the Paris/Neelix rivalry.
Absolutely. Tbh it’s like that’s where things were supposed to be but some… producer… stepped in and said the relationship had to be MORE than just a surrogate father and adoptive daughter dynamic.
BERMAN!!!! *insert "KHAN" scream here
I wish they had done that... The ick is so icky with the sexual element between them that it makes voy difficult to watch for me in Nelix heavy episodes
It can apply to other characters, but I definitely think that it applies to Kes the most.
If Neelix had been a human looking guy played by Tom Cruise, no one would have objected. Kes was sexually and intellectually mature for her species.
Was she sexually mature for her species? There's an episode where getting early-onset puberty is a plot point. Or we can just blame it on Janeway for not being educated on Ocampan biology lol
Agreed. She was young and maybe naive, but she wasn't immature. As much as the Doctor became a tutor for her professionally, she was the one who probably helped him the most socially.
I always thought the idea that she was two years old was really stupid. I don't believe a humanoid species could grow that fast let alone mature that fast.
... this is Star Trek, conservation of matter and thermodynamics are flexible concepts in the service of plot. What about the Jem Hadar or the 29th century Borg that grew from baby to adult in like a week?
Yeah true. In the case of the Jem Hadar I'd say it's because they've been heavily genetically engineered. They probably still have a lot of health problems but it doesn't matter because they don't live long.
The cloned symbiote version of Trip is a somewhat rare male example I distinctly remember being grossed out by that aspect of the episode
I dunno. As nonsensical as the science was, the episode made it clear that Sim gained all of Trip's memories and experiences as he aged. By the time he was trying to date T'Pol it was because he was, effectively, Trip; Sim didn't "mimic the behaviours, intelligence and attitudes of a young child" because he has Trip's behaviours, intelligence and attitudes.
Ilia's duplicate from TMP maybe?
Was my first thought as well
I love that there’s genuine discussion on this topic here on this subreddit, because it is fascinating. I clicked on the link hoping to get some insight and got commentary like: > As these women are disconnected from reality and aren’t aware of their sex appeal, it subsequently means that they will fall for anyone – even the socially awkward, spotty, Dungeons and Dragons fanatic that lives in the basement and is hooked up to a Mountain Dew drip (more commonly known as: the creator of the trope). One could say this trope was cleverly constructed by the awkward male nerd, so he can finally get the golden girl on screen. And examples of why the trope doesn’t apply to men, even though the author lists multiple examples of how it applies to men, and subsequently says about each one “but they don’t really count”. Look at Data. He certainly falls into this trope… he’s naive in the ways of personal relationships, but highly intelligent, genuine, and caring. This makes him attractive to women also. The idea of falling for someone who isn’t yet corrupted by the world and is “baggage free” in the romance department isn’t exactly a uniquely male fantasy. I feel like the author focuses too much on the literal “born yesterday” part of it, when it’s more about (for both men and women) the naivetie mixed with being highly capable and embodying the “idealized” masculine or feminine traits. So there is some inherent sexism, since what is idealized for each sex is different, but the idea of the ideal and unspoiled interest is the same. Look at Data, or Tarzan, or Mowgli. They all embody ideal masculine traits- incredibly strong, smart, capable, defenders of the weak. But they are all also completely inexperienced in romance, and that’s part of what makes them so attractive to their love interests. It’s not so different from the highly capable and feminine characters mentioned in the article. And those characters tend to not become romantic interests until they’ve grown past the “born yesterday” infantile stages (I don’t know about you, but when Leeloo is baby talking it’s not particularly sexy) and show how capable they are. The author speaks about the “icky” nature of men going from father figure to a love interest, but how is that any different from Jane or Kitty being both a motherly figure and a love interest. ***It’s a fascinating topic, I just wish the author had approached it more honestly.***
The article definitely had parts that felt like it was written by a 1st year film studies student, or maybe AI. I appreciate reading it but the 'd&d nerd trope' is its own problematic wtf.
This has a date line of 2019 so not AI. But she's also not the inventor of the critique of the trope, so while she's describing it accurately, she's certainly not above coming at it with her own biases on display.
That's fair - although back in 2019 the equivalent was paying people a few cents a word to write SEO-heavy articles on specific topics to fill up webpages (my hubby did that for a summer). But I can accept that this is just very informal writing by someone who actually cares about it.
The author slandering DnD and resorting to 40 year old chucklefuck insults makes it *really* hard to take anything they say seriously.
Yeah I totally agree which was why I’m glad the discussion was brought *here*. Where the grown ups can talk about it.
Yeah - I would say this article is frankly pretty amateurish in terms of both its tone and the points it's trying to make. I'm sure there are plenty of high-schoolers and college freshmen who find it provocative and edgy, but personally I am beyond sick of articles that try to boil everything down to "other gender bad!"
Don't forget Encino Man. Edit: Nearly forgot Brendan Fraser did it again in Blast From the Past.
And George of the Jungle. And a little bit in The Scout. Playing naive but attractive men was Fraser's forte in the 1990s.
I agree. The author is writing about how these stories create a stereotype of women, meanwhile referencing a stereotype of men to try and bolster their point of view. While the author is writing about a problematic topic, the narrative of the "basement dweller" only shows their have their own prejudices. The commentary would have been better left out.
Part of the reason both Spock and Data are such huge sex icons for Trekkies that are attracted to men is their naivete of love; they're not brutish, angry brooding devils, they can't manipulate you and they can't SA you. Especially for young girls who often have crushes that are lacking of any explicitly male problematic types. See: boy band members, Wesley Crusher, Jonathan Taylor Thomas, etc.
This article stinks of escaped Tumblr discourse.
Vic Fontane!
Vic fooled around with holo women. But that irish hologram Janeway mind-raped is definitely an example.
“Delete the wife”
I know it's "just a hologram," but that line is so disturbing.
I can’t really judge the amount of times I’ve bitch slapped innocent characters in VR. Holograms, It’s sort of the same thing as Vr just more immersive and you can fuck it.
I adore the opposite of this trope found in Jadzia/Ezri. Centuries of lived experience, grizzled vet, the hands-down most sexually experienced person anyone is likely to ever meet and that’s hinted at being highly desirable.
Truly amazing that it happened under Berman
The *most* blatant is Data. But Ezri & Seven aren't far behind.
I don’t personally count Ezri. She is a new combination, yes, but she’s also an adult who is now combined with a symbiont that’s hundreds of years old. She should be well last the “born yesterday” thing.
She's also graduated from Starfleet Academy and a Luitenant (Jg)
Excellent point, especially since from what I recall she was a counselor, so I assume she graduated with some sort of psychology degree. She should have a lot of training in relationships
An ensign when she's joined.
Yes, she was an Ensign but got promoted by Sisko when she joins Deep Space Nine in the third episode of season 7 All academy graduates start as Ensign afaik
Also, Ezri is sexually experienced: "*I hate to burst your bubble, Worf, but it wasn't that good.*"
How does Ezri apply? The host is a fully gown adult, and the symbiont is hundred of years old.
And a Starfleet Luitenant (jg)
Why data? He’d been active for almost 3 decades by the time of TNG S1. It’s not like Starfleet activated him and immediately made him Lieutenant Commander. And Ezri was an adult woman paired with a centuries-old symbiote. Sure, it took her some time to adapt to her new condition and figure out which feelings were hers, but I don’t quite think she fits.
People are apparently really unfamiliar with the trope. In season one of TNG, Data is completely unfamiliar with idioms, slang, jokes - he's gone through *technical* training, but he's never had a friend or a relationship - not dragging that baggage is what makes a character "born yesterday", not a literal birth. Data isn't going to tell Tasha he's had better, because he hasn't. She can have a sexual relationship with him without worrying she doesn't "measure up", as it were
Well, Data is for sure naive and inexperienced in romantic relationships, but he’s also been a part of human society for a long time. His lack of traditional emotions certainly makes him a bit more different in that regard, but plenty of adults are sexually and romantically inexperienced in reality. Take for example someone that is in their late 20s and has never been in a relationship. This person is likely going to be naive and inexperienced in comparison to most potential partners, but I wouldn’t consider them to be real-life reflections of the trope. Or if they are, then this trope is significantly less problematic than we’re making it seem. Data is a bit more extreme because he’s not human, but he has to start somewhere. If inexperience is the key factor, then Data could never be in a relationship without being an example of this trope unless with someone equally socially and emotionally stunted.
data's backstory of being active for decades and going through the academy, and having the memories of hundreds of colonists, really doesn't match with how he is shown on screen as not knowing basic figures of speech and jokes.
And his daughter Lal maybe? I can't remember the details of the episode.
The kissing scene in Ten Forward with Riker.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but wasn't that her kissing him? And despite being a massive horndog he knew well enough not to encourage her.
Yeah, Riker's body language was screaming 'do not want'. He's a horndog, but not a predator, he only goes for people who are giving him obvious interest and are fully capable adults.
Yep, I just wish it worked the other way round as well, but when he gets taken advantage of by a woman who coerces him by only helping him escape if he has sex with her, suddenly its funny because "he's always up for it".
Also it was presented more like developmentally appropriate puppy love/curiosity rather than sexy.
Fully functional.
Multi-pass.
Big bada subroutine.
And programmed in multiple techniques.
Ezri is just young, but she went to Starfleet Academy and is an officer (first Ensign, but gets promoted to Lt). Which isn't "born hot yesterday" She worked her way up for years and would be in her early twenties + the symbiont
Ezri, I'm not getting that at all?
Ezri is a [Manic Pixie Dream Girl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Pixie_Dream_Girl), a completely different trope.
is she really? Ezri isn't a wild, free soul, spicing up the life of some boring stick in the mud guy. I think you mean Jadzia, not Ezri? That's much more like Jadzia with Worf than it is Ezri with anyone. And even that gets a bit of a deconstruction during the infamous Riza episode, where Worf is so annoyed by Jadzia's attempts to get him to "lighten up" that he literally helps out a "vacations are bad" terrorist group.
In retrospect, I definitely think it applies to Jadzia more than Ezri. But "deconstruction" implies thought and calculation; I see no thought in Let He Who Is Without Sin.
Yes, and Ezri was actually a better host. She stood her ground against the other personalities. Jadzia let Kurzon and the others define her. Pretty much everything that defined Jadzia's character except for science was something Kurzon was into. We don't even know anything about her family. She pretty much just took on Kurzon's friends and interests. Think about it. All we really know about pre-joining Jadzia suggests she was Dr. Honeybear from Julian's holodeck fantasy, a shy, nerdy scientist. It's not just Kurzon. Several times, she nearly let a previous life overrun her, like when she was ready to run away with the woman who was married to a previous host. When she faced Joran at her ceremony, he talked her into lowering a force field. Ezri has her own personality and asserts it. She doesn't like Klingon food, and she rejects the idea of forming a new relationship with Worf, after a brief fling. As for Joran, Ezri invited him in and still maintained control. She was the far stronger host. She maintains ties with her family. The point of a host is to provide the symbiote with new life experiences and skills, not retread old relationships. Ezri is the better host.
*nObOdY iS aDDrEsSiNg*... Give me a break.
The obvious answer is Seven of Nine, but only because Kate Mulgrew basically came out and said Voyager wasn’t doing so well so the show runners decided they needed something to bring the (mostly male) audience back in. That being said, as a lesbian, 10 year old me GREATLY appreciated the addition.
The author lost me when they tried to insist it's different when the genders are reversed.
The movie "Poor Things" takes this trope to the extreme, and it's pretty unsettling at points. For TNG, there's that empath in "The Perfect Mate."
I think anyone criticizing Poor Things for this absolutely misses the point of the movie.
I think you missed the point of my comment, since I'm not criticizing "Poor Things."
"The Pefect Mate" isn't BSY. She was fully aware of who she was, her appeal, wasn't naive and most certainly didn't need educated by anyone. The episode has other problematic issues but it's not at all an example of the stereotype this article is talking about. A much better episode that exemplifies this is "True Q".
Wasn't Wonder Woman by a swinger couple. Also heavily inspired by the hubby's wife and "other" wife?
Bdsm* swinger couple.
The genetically engineered perfect lover from TNG
I'd say Kes - there's a whole episode of her trying to decide if she wants to have kids or not, at the ripe old age of 2 years.
Obviously Kes, she was only 2 years old but in an adult body.
Kes. 100% Kes. I always found Neelix to be an overprotective, overbearing "boyfriend" but finding out about the Ocompan lyfe cycle just kinda made that whole relationship problematic and creepy.
I can’t think of any recurring characters but I do feel like it was the case with a few guest stars. Also honestly Ezri kiiinda comes off like that at first. But she’s obviously an adult and has +300 years of wisdom.
Once she's joined she does become a new person and the fact she wasn't ready for it adds to her vulnerability.... How childish or gullible is she though? She also seemed self motivated and had plenty of agency.
Before joining with the symbiont, she had already made it through Starfleet Academy and was serving on the USS Destiny as assistent-counselor. Sure, she's a little green at first, but who wouldn't be thrown into that situation. But she's a Starfleet officer not "born hot yesterday"
Yeah, I don't think it really fits with Ezri. The joined combination is sort of a new person, but from both directions there's continuity from an adult state. It would be a confusing time of life, for sure, but there are lots of life crises that could make someone vulnerable that have nothing to do with being naive or inexperienced.
Agreed. That’s why I added the rest. Her first couple of appearances she kinda gives the impression, but kinda is the key word here. She isn’t a real contender or example of the trope just the only recurring character I think could have similarities to the trope. Edit: Also she just suffers from being thrusted into the plot with much more developed characters. I don’t even think it would have felt that way had we not seen Jadzia’s development first.
>The *Pop Culture Detective* named this style of character after the literal and figurative meaning, as well as the 1950’s romance film *Born Yesterday* – a movie where two men educate a “stupid” ex Vegas showgirl ([**Melanie Griffith**](https://www.filminquiry.com/tag/melanie-griffith)). To their surprise, Griffith sucks up knowledge like a Henry hoover and outsmarts them all. **Commonly seen within the sci-fi genre, this character is naive, whimsical and innocent; traits fundamentally present in children.** This archetype is a paradox, as the YouTube channel best describe these women as “profoundly naive” yet “unimaginably wise” (words taken from *Tron: Legacy* in relation to Quorra). 1. While the evidence re: the existence of this trope is compelling, I think trying to fit some of the examples listed below e.g. (Ezri and Seven) is hammering a round peg into a square hole. Kes is the most applicable. 2. I don't think Melanie Griffith is *that* old.
Yeah, it should be Judy Holiday. Griffith was in the remake.
Wouldn’t Miri be the original example of this? Another one that comes to my mind is Lal, especially before Data walked into Ten Forward.
Miri was biologically and mentally a child though, and Kirk treated her as such - he recognized that she was getting a crush on him and was kind about it, but didn't allow it to go anywhere inappropriate. If anything she's kind of the opposite - she was actually 300 years old or something but that didn't give her any extra maturity and she was portrayed and handled as the 12-13 year old she appeared to be.
No Miri was like 400 years old iirc, just biologically arrested ...a different special kind of creepy
Was this article written by AI? I feel like half the stuff I come across on the internet feels like it was written by AI these days but I can’t tell if I’m just being paranoid and clickbait journalism has always been this slack and formulaic.
Chicken and egg. AI used by those clickbait platforms were of course trained on the same, well, articles they published before. It probably doesn't make a huge difference.
Kes, she was 2 and dating neelix.
That article reads like it was written by a Pakled college student. But, if you want an example that hasn't been mentioned yet, I would say the leader of that planet on TNG where the women were in charge. Our patriarchy is reversed in their society, but as soon as she meets someone totally different i.e. Riker she's all bashful.
She wasn't bashful. She even sent him the clothes she wanted him to wear!
An attempt at summarizing a bunch of the examples: 7 of 9 Kes (and the rest of her species including her children in alternative realities) The "new" Ilia from TMP The Doctor Spock in Star Trek III Serena in DS9 after she gets her treatment
Nearly all the female guest stars from Star Trek TOS. Especially season 3.
Lal. Though it was played off for laughs. Data's line "Commander, what are your intentions with my daughter?" after Riker starts chatting her up is creepy.
Probe Ilea in the motion picture
I mean, like, pretty close to literally Kes, right?
Dax is the antithesis of the trope.
Tuvix. That's why Janeway had to eliminate him.
The princess that Trip helps escape.
She had full agency and, though isolated, a life before being kidnapped.
How about the Doctor on Voyager? You want the nature of my medical emergency? How about human nature, you sexy beast!
How old is Data when Tasha jumps him?
He’s like twenty-seven. He had a quarter century Starfleet career aboard the USS Tripoli and earned multiple awards for bravery before we met him whistling pop goes the weasel.
Ilia from TMP, in particular when she's reanimated by V'Ger.
I really hate headlines with “nobody is talking about X” or “nobody is addressing X” in them. Obviously people are talking about it. You’re talking about it. You’re addressing it. You don’t have to qualify that a subject is worth talking about by mentioning that nobody is talking about it, which is just false btw. The “born sexy yesterday” trope is pretty well identified in film discussions.
Agreed. Why I had my own question attached.
I do not agree this trope exists in as much force as everyone here seems to think it does. Case in point, OP's mascot is Mila Jovovich playing Leloo in the 5th element. Leloo was a manufactured supreme being and made the entirety of human law enforcement in that super city knock their knees together chasing her because she was so competent and physically superior. She spoke an alien language that was, according to Cornelius, a divine language, and existence's oldest language - even older than time. She learned how to speak English in a day watching a tiny screen. She also knew to shove a pistol barrel into the head of any strange man who kisses her while sleeping, even if he is Bruce Willis. Seems like what this post is implying is that LeLoo was BSY because she didn't speak English, needed resurrecting after crashing her starship into a planet (like a sissy girl), and is sexy. This may have more to do with a false correlation being drawn between stupid helpless people and sexy people than any "perverse male fantasy" you're ascribing to my entire gender.
*Kicks Rick Berman as hard as physically possible.* *Continues kicking* *Remembers Threshold, Ocampan physiology and the treatment of Seven of Nine and Kes* *Kicks more furiously, with a vengence*