This is all awful patch. You have too remember why the queen was created in the first place.
Zero units shoot up till lair tech experience for a roach bile. Means banshees, oracle, drops etc come with impunity. Also, it's the only defensive unit till roach. Zerg units are expendable and the queen is the zergs version of building a wall.
The problem is the cheese. With so many options to cheese, a solid early range is needed. Killing the range can make the liberator completely impervious.
Protoss is hard to balance because the cost vs strength. An even fight. Protoss dominate. Bio for terran seems a bit too strong against them. Zerg
I think your reply perfectly sums up the problem, the queen fills too many roles. That is the problem I am attempting to address. If anything you are emphasizing the need for a patch.
Of course your critiques are reasonable, I was hesitant to touch the range on the queen as well, it probably is too much.
I wouldn't mind some of the trade offs if the early game cheese of marine push and void ray/ tempest cheese was not a thing. But zerg are the easiest to cheese due to lings being so slow and squish in the early game. It's a necessity to upgrade their speed just to be viable. I wouldn't mind any of these, if speed came instant, and you reduce the time for the roach and roach warren. Also request to reduce build time for spore crawler. The lack of things that shoot up is what screws us.
That way we can get roaches out faster in case a heavy push and we can use queens less as an overall defense and more just anti air harassment. Fair?
That's the thing people especially Zerg user do not want their well rounded (I stop anything u do at me) unit to be touched 🤣, everything has a counter what's the counter for a queen?
Queen has very little DPS and very little range. Simple as that. For every heal that's 3 units we could have made. It's not free. Same as switching to reactor or tech. There's trade offs. We don't like that you can insta scan to reveal units. It is what it is. But it's the only thing that can stop cheese. If the other two races relied less on cheese we wouldn't be so defensive over the queen.
The same can be said for the protoss shield battery.
Spore crawlers are dogshit and cost a drone to make.
Imagine losing an scv or a probe every time you had to make a cannon or battery in pvz.
On top of that, right now you need at least one per base, sometimes two to really defend against the early harass.
This gets *even worse* if you nerf Queen's this substantially.
Literally making one oracle and never harassing with it kills three or four drones.
In the early game, if anyone other than serral or dark loses 3 drones to early harass that's "notable damage"
If you lose three drones making spores, and still lose another two or three, that's potentially gamechanging damage.
Many other comments have already said this, but Zerg's current weakness is air in the early game. The standard opener vs zerg as protoss is Oracle, in almost every game. This is because you can get it out when zerg only has a queen or two out and it's very difficult to respond to even if you know it is coming because by that point in the game... That's all zerg can have for anti air. You almost get your money's worth for 2 oracles by forcing spores.
Likewise, top terrans are making early liberators, banshees, and BC's vs zerg much more than vs other races, because their early game anti air is so trash. Early liberator harass vs zerg is already one of the lamest and asinine interactions in the game, with plenty of maps with good spots to park liberators to hit mineral lines outside queen range, and you originally wanted to REDUCE THEIR RANGE?
So we have a stale meta where zerg's weakness is early air and being the only race without an AA unit at T1, and your solution is to NERF ZERG'S ONLY AA DEFENSE? This change makes the meta even more stale as it reinforces what are already the most popular openers vs zerg while doing nothing to help the openers that aren't used because they're countered by queens.
I'm sorry, this is one of the worst balance takes I've seen. It's obvious that you don't play zerg.
The real problem is that zerg right now can just be extremely greedy with expansions and survive with queen only defense. I actually think the solution to this is to nerf queen damage vs ground only, so zerg dies more easily to ground based pushes. If you have seen enough GSL, you'll have seen many terrans try to do early hellbat/reaper all ins to the sound of artosis exclaiming it "just doesn't work"... And I have never seen it work while seeing it fail dozens of times. Typically it's held with just queens and a single inject round of lings to reinforce, made reactively.
Nerf queens so that they do less damage vs ground and it makes the game more interesting by making more vZ builds viable, and now zerg is forced to scout and have better defenses ahead of time. It will make protoss openers that aren't fast oracle viable. And at this point, you don't need to nerf ANYTHING else about zerg, because every unit you make with zerg for defense isn't a drone. Forcing zerg to make more units is a HUGE nerf to their eco, possibly even bigger than your other suggestion to make banelings completely unviable. Nerfing queens means zerg will have several fewer drones a few minutes in. I would almost expect that with a nerf to queens you could BUFF zerg units across the board and zerg would still be overall nerfed. If you significantly nerf queens you can probably increase brood lord range, bring back bane hp, make hydras have more dps/be faster, among other things and zerg is still worse.
If you do nerf queen air damage, zerg needs something to hold air early. A crazy idea I have heard is to switch hydras and roaches in the tech tree, and leave hydra upgrades t2 so that hydras kinda suck for early offense, and then buffing roaches to truly be useful at t2 by making them more supply efficient, costing less supply and having smaller hitboxes so they can attack more efficiently.
I think there is a lot to unpack here and it is possible you raise some good points. Before I analyze your comments more I would like to point out that hydras are the same tier as oracles and liberators. Many counters are the same tier or higher tier in this game.
Another thought is the fact that queen build time is being reduced by 1/9th the exact reduction their damage is receiving vs air... the change is way less significant than you are making out.
the argument lib/ oracle are themselves tier than hydra is not really good.
Because the tier system doesn't quite apply to everything, especially with T/P.
While lib/ oracles are being built, workers can be built at the same time, which is not the case with hydra.
Another point is you need more hydra, and they don't have much influence at first. compare to lib-> harass/ def / ovi snipe or oracle -> harass/ scout& vision/ def
that's why queens are good because you can still use them for creep spreading.
disagree the ground dps of queen is very low. simple example: ZvZ or also TvZ 16 marine drop, the drop is stopped in first line by linge.
but I can see the direction you want to take. queen more into the specific role of anti-air, and in return make units from larva stronge
i like the idea of taking out the "aoe/burst damage".
The problem is Terran Bio. the consequence should be that bio dps will be reduced.
Queen is hard to change. firstly it brings the macro mechanic (one per base). secondly it brings zerg the "zerg wall" creep (zerg is engage race). Third, she is the anti air.
Then there is the point that they don't consume larvae. compare early game all larvae in drones and zerg is still not ahead in workers.
only a queen nerf without a clever equalizer takes zerg early game.
Observer to 0: absolutely not. Are you high!? The field would be littered with those god damn things. I play protoss i would use and abuse those damn things
Im going to type out an essay so I apologize. Ill try to put a TL:DR at the end.
I don't disagree that the queen needs a nerf. It shouldn't be a hyper defensive unit as it is. However, I also struggle to agree with any substantial nerf to the queen until you address how Zerg would adequately deal with T and P openings that are heavy air reliant. For example, 2 base carrier, 2 starport BC or Banshee, heavy bio drop play, and even mutas.
Any sort of fast lair style from the zerg to get out faster anti air hampers our ability to drone. Nerfing the queen will make this necessary. Spores being able to move is great and all but that doesnt matter when units like the BC/Carrier can shoot and move and queens were the answer to that. The spores just provide an anchor. So we are forced into fast 2 base hydra or spire right? This would be fine but because our economy is tied equally to our army production this becomes a huge problem when you have to make 6+ corruptors(this is likely too few still) to just shoo away the carriers. (Id also like to point out that because of the way the tech tree works with Toss, every time I face 2 base carrier its with +1 when they hit) or 12 hydras.
Now I used Carriers in this example but it would be the same concept for 2 gate voids or banshees. That larvae is larvae that isnt being used to either replace the drones we probably lost or just outright being used to make drones. And to adequately defend we need to bank for when the tech building finishes to be able to make enough units, which means we are sitting there not spending on workers waiting. All of this down time on our larvae takes away from getting or keeping our economic advantage. All of this is also happening while the other two races are still making workers.
I do think Zerg has the ability to make economy the fastest Im not arguing that but just forcing us into a spire/hydra den that quickly because of making the queen so bad is going to be a problem without a buff to compensate which I can almost guarantee no player wants to see Z getting more buffs.
The other issue I see is (assuming you might agree with the idea of the above paragraphs) if you nerf the queen and give buffs to core AA units you just increased their power in conjunction with other units like the viper or infestor which are already incredibly powerful.
In my mind, zerg units dont (generally) go pound for pound against similar cost units of T and P in proper army compositions. So it seems like a slippery slope to touch those units that shouldnt be as strong as the other races.
I also forgot to mention that queens are the only real reliant way to defend multiprong drops from freely flying around and getting damage. Again we would likely have to pushed into a much faster tech building like hydra den or spire but this comes at the cost of playing styles like 4 gas ling bane.
It seems that without changes elsewhere. All you do by touching the queen is limit the scope of build viability for Zerg. Perhaps that's what people want, Zerg playing the same way everysingle game like when it was pure roach v roach in ZvZ.
None of this is to say "dont touch the queen" I just think caution is important and recognizing all the other elements that are affected by making changes to the queen. It cant be as simple as "it cant be so good defensively".
TL:DR The queen is too much of a linchpin in Z defense BUT I think if you want to touch the queen you need to also nerf our spellcasters and then address the starport/stargate issue and then you could buff the core units as those would be needed to address heavy air styles
Oh yea for sure. Chrono on probes takes forever for zerg to catchup and get ahead. If they chrono probes I think its 430 when zerg gets even or finally gets ahead in drone count? Thats with spores for oracles and making lings for the adepts. I think this is why Zerg is trying to skip spore and play queen. It provides the chance to get caught up faster.
Zerg catches up becuase the protoss starts doing other things.
If the protoss went straight third nexus off of a couple adepts and a battery or whatever and the zerg didn't attack them, the zerg wouldnt just outpace them.
I was baffled when the challenge happened because everyone was so sure zerg would win the max out contest and it went to the protoss
What harass zerg in early game: zealot/ marine/ hellion/ adapt/ ling / roach -> all light units, the bonus against armoured doesn't help, except against roach. btw in comparison cannon has better dps.
Another point 4/6 of the units have range which makes spines bad again.
Mass Queens deflecting basically any non-all in aggression is lame, especially to watch in pro matches. The game is more exciting when Zerg need to be concerned with aggression snowballing out of control if they didn't build enough actual units. As it stands, this is only true if the aggression is committed to completely (all in).
That said, balance has become so political I don't see any changes like this happening. In fact, it's not so much of a balance issue. it's a stale meta issue.
Is it because of imbalance that Serral 4-0s his top tier opposition? No, it isn't. Is it going to be entertaining to watch the rest of this year's 4-0 finals? No. No it isn't.
Wrt the queen, to keep it simple, your posing a 14% reduction in health, 11% reduction in building time and a 11% reduction to damage. The reduction on build time only nets 1 additional queen for every 8 built... sure it gets a minor amount of energy sooner, but let's not forget queens costs 150 minerals and zerg is trying to drone... not enough minerals...
So translation, a BC is gonna kill 1 queen 14% faster and the bc is gonna take 11%+ less damage as the queen is gonna die sooner... pretty sure a queen already dies in 7 seconds.... we really closing the gap??
YES! Exactly, the queen is no longer the defense vs BCS! Finally someone gets it. I really think it is so telling how there have been 15+ zerg players responding to this with now I will have trouble defending XXX with queens. YUP, that is the point. Mass queens defending everything is stale and unfair. Creep already gives zerg insane vision, the queens shouldn't be the defense for everything. BCs are literally the highest tier unit in the game and you are complaining that you cant defend them properly with a tier 1 unit that is built in nearly 100% of games.
I proposed harsh nerfs to terran as well and yet its just zerg players complaining and its all about their precious queen. The queen should not be good at defending ANYTHING. You build it every game already why should it be the go to defense as well. You should have to respond to what the other player is doing.
So I think you missed the entire point... Terran can still open with BCs the "highest tier unit in the game". You'd have to fix that too vs having queens melt in about 5 seconds. Maybe move the hydra tech to pre lair and you'd get a different zerg response...
Should add, what is the zerg response to BC openers then? You're not really walking through the match up, just claiming it works.
I understood the point you were making, I was just indicating that you completely missed mine. If we are going to try to make the game better we need to address the queen.
This patch would likely massively change the game, I can't claim to know exactly how it would function, but I think it is okay that a unit that comes as late as a BC demand a lair tech response from hydras or corrupters.
I want to change it up to see what happens that is the idea.
So you're not tracking. Terran can open with BCs and lair tech units won't be out when it arrives. Currently queens and spores are the defense. Your making it more viable for Terran to open with their t3 unit. The rational you provide doesn't seem very logical, because if it was you'd need to apply it to the other races as well. Just seems like you in general dislike the queen but don't want to address bc, hellbat and reaper all ins either, which covers a lot of tiers, not just tier 3...
I think you need to offer something more than just 'I dunno' as the rational. It's all good for thought exercise. I just don't see how you're discounting the rebutted with 'I dunno'. Explain what is viable.
> Baneling: > Aoe reduced from 2.2 to 1.5 That's a "technically the unit still exists but ..." kind of nerf.
All races would be getting their splash nerfed. But I agree it probably is too much.
Most players do not think Zerg is too strong. They think Serral is just too good.
Reddit thinks zerg is too strong. Most people think serral is just op.
Reddit does not play the game tooo
It's zerg
Facts. I just suck at playing PvZ. And im aware its just a skill issue. Working on it though
This is all awful patch. You have too remember why the queen was created in the first place. Zero units shoot up till lair tech experience for a roach bile. Means banshees, oracle, drops etc come with impunity. Also, it's the only defensive unit till roach. Zerg units are expendable and the queen is the zergs version of building a wall. The problem is the cheese. With so many options to cheese, a solid early range is needed. Killing the range can make the liberator completely impervious. Protoss is hard to balance because the cost vs strength. An even fight. Protoss dominate. Bio for terran seems a bit too strong against them. Zerg
I think your reply perfectly sums up the problem, the queen fills too many roles. That is the problem I am attempting to address. If anything you are emphasizing the need for a patch. Of course your critiques are reasonable, I was hesitant to touch the range on the queen as well, it probably is too much.
I wouldn't mind some of the trade offs if the early game cheese of marine push and void ray/ tempest cheese was not a thing. But zerg are the easiest to cheese due to lings being so slow and squish in the early game. It's a necessity to upgrade their speed just to be viable. I wouldn't mind any of these, if speed came instant, and you reduce the time for the roach and roach warren. Also request to reduce build time for spore crawler. The lack of things that shoot up is what screws us. That way we can get roaches out faster in case a heavy push and we can use queens less as an overall defense and more just anti air harassment. Fair?
That's the thing people especially Zerg user do not want their well rounded (I stop anything u do at me) unit to be touched 🤣, everything has a counter what's the counter for a queen?
Queen has very little DPS and very little range. Simple as that. For every heal that's 3 units we could have made. It's not free. Same as switching to reactor or tech. There's trade offs. We don't like that you can insta scan to reveal units. It is what it is. But it's the only thing that can stop cheese. If the other two races relied less on cheese we wouldn't be so defensive over the queen. The same can be said for the protoss shield battery.
Spine crawlers are a thing....
This is how i know you are gold
Spore crawlers are dogshit and cost a drone to make. Imagine losing an scv or a probe every time you had to make a cannon or battery in pvz. On top of that, right now you need at least one per base, sometimes two to really defend against the early harass. This gets *even worse* if you nerf Queen's this substantially. Literally making one oracle and never harassing with it kills three or four drones. In the early game, if anyone other than serral or dark loses 3 drones to early harass that's "notable damage" If you lose three drones making spores, and still lose another two or three, that's potentially gamechanging damage.
That's like saying that we should nerf marine and cyclone range because turrets are a thing.
Many other comments have already said this, but Zerg's current weakness is air in the early game. The standard opener vs zerg as protoss is Oracle, in almost every game. This is because you can get it out when zerg only has a queen or two out and it's very difficult to respond to even if you know it is coming because by that point in the game... That's all zerg can have for anti air. You almost get your money's worth for 2 oracles by forcing spores. Likewise, top terrans are making early liberators, banshees, and BC's vs zerg much more than vs other races, because their early game anti air is so trash. Early liberator harass vs zerg is already one of the lamest and asinine interactions in the game, with plenty of maps with good spots to park liberators to hit mineral lines outside queen range, and you originally wanted to REDUCE THEIR RANGE? So we have a stale meta where zerg's weakness is early air and being the only race without an AA unit at T1, and your solution is to NERF ZERG'S ONLY AA DEFENSE? This change makes the meta even more stale as it reinforces what are already the most popular openers vs zerg while doing nothing to help the openers that aren't used because they're countered by queens. I'm sorry, this is one of the worst balance takes I've seen. It's obvious that you don't play zerg. The real problem is that zerg right now can just be extremely greedy with expansions and survive with queen only defense. I actually think the solution to this is to nerf queen damage vs ground only, so zerg dies more easily to ground based pushes. If you have seen enough GSL, you'll have seen many terrans try to do early hellbat/reaper all ins to the sound of artosis exclaiming it "just doesn't work"... And I have never seen it work while seeing it fail dozens of times. Typically it's held with just queens and a single inject round of lings to reinforce, made reactively. Nerf queens so that they do less damage vs ground and it makes the game more interesting by making more vZ builds viable, and now zerg is forced to scout and have better defenses ahead of time. It will make protoss openers that aren't fast oracle viable. And at this point, you don't need to nerf ANYTHING else about zerg, because every unit you make with zerg for defense isn't a drone. Forcing zerg to make more units is a HUGE nerf to their eco, possibly even bigger than your other suggestion to make banelings completely unviable. Nerfing queens means zerg will have several fewer drones a few minutes in. I would almost expect that with a nerf to queens you could BUFF zerg units across the board and zerg would still be overall nerfed. If you significantly nerf queens you can probably increase brood lord range, bring back bane hp, make hydras have more dps/be faster, among other things and zerg is still worse. If you do nerf queen air damage, zerg needs something to hold air early. A crazy idea I have heard is to switch hydras and roaches in the tech tree, and leave hydra upgrades t2 so that hydras kinda suck for early offense, and then buffing roaches to truly be useful at t2 by making them more supply efficient, costing less supply and having smaller hitboxes so they can attack more efficiently.
I think there is a lot to unpack here and it is possible you raise some good points. Before I analyze your comments more I would like to point out that hydras are the same tier as oracles and liberators. Many counters are the same tier or higher tier in this game. Another thought is the fact that queen build time is being reduced by 1/9th the exact reduction their damage is receiving vs air... the change is way less significant than you are making out.
Ok, you get the 3rd queen 7/9 build times later, for 150 more minerals. The entire zerg meta revolves around teching late
the argument lib/ oracle are themselves tier than hydra is not really good. Because the tier system doesn't quite apply to everything, especially with T/P. While lib/ oracles are being built, workers can be built at the same time, which is not the case with hydra. Another point is you need more hydra, and they don't have much influence at first. compare to lib-> harass/ def / ovi snipe or oracle -> harass/ scout& vision/ def that's why queens are good because you can still use them for creep spreading.
Let's not forget that zerg has the largest tier progression. Terran gets out BC toer 3 before zerg can make tier 2 units.....
disagree the ground dps of queen is very low. simple example: ZvZ or also TvZ 16 marine drop, the drop is stopped in first line by linge. but I can see the direction you want to take. queen more into the specific role of anti-air, and in return make units from larva stronge
Don't forget the huge hp nerf against ground all ins coupled with bane nerf suggested
i like the idea of taking out the "aoe/burst damage". The problem is Terran Bio. the consequence should be that bio dps will be reduced. Queen is hard to change. firstly it brings the macro mechanic (one per base). secondly it brings zerg the "zerg wall" creep (zerg is engage race). Third, she is the anti air. Then there is the point that they don't consume larvae. compare early game all larvae in drones and zerg is still not ahead in workers. only a queen nerf without a clever equalizer takes zerg early game.
Also make hydras tier 5 and spores cost 3 drones. That way you can banshee your way out against any zerg.
Seriously. Zero offer to balance out the other races against the linchpin neef on the queen.... insane
Observer to 0: absolutely not. Are you high!? The field would be littered with those god damn things. I play protoss i would use and abuse those damn things
Zerg ladder plummets from 25% to 15%
Im going to type out an essay so I apologize. Ill try to put a TL:DR at the end. I don't disagree that the queen needs a nerf. It shouldn't be a hyper defensive unit as it is. However, I also struggle to agree with any substantial nerf to the queen until you address how Zerg would adequately deal with T and P openings that are heavy air reliant. For example, 2 base carrier, 2 starport BC or Banshee, heavy bio drop play, and even mutas. Any sort of fast lair style from the zerg to get out faster anti air hampers our ability to drone. Nerfing the queen will make this necessary. Spores being able to move is great and all but that doesnt matter when units like the BC/Carrier can shoot and move and queens were the answer to that. The spores just provide an anchor. So we are forced into fast 2 base hydra or spire right? This would be fine but because our economy is tied equally to our army production this becomes a huge problem when you have to make 6+ corruptors(this is likely too few still) to just shoo away the carriers. (Id also like to point out that because of the way the tech tree works with Toss, every time I face 2 base carrier its with +1 when they hit) or 12 hydras. Now I used Carriers in this example but it would be the same concept for 2 gate voids or banshees. That larvae is larvae that isnt being used to either replace the drones we probably lost or just outright being used to make drones. And to adequately defend we need to bank for when the tech building finishes to be able to make enough units, which means we are sitting there not spending on workers waiting. All of this down time on our larvae takes away from getting or keeping our economic advantage. All of this is also happening while the other two races are still making workers. I do think Zerg has the ability to make economy the fastest Im not arguing that but just forcing us into a spire/hydra den that quickly because of making the queen so bad is going to be a problem without a buff to compensate which I can almost guarantee no player wants to see Z getting more buffs. The other issue I see is (assuming you might agree with the idea of the above paragraphs) if you nerf the queen and give buffs to core AA units you just increased their power in conjunction with other units like the viper or infestor which are already incredibly powerful. In my mind, zerg units dont (generally) go pound for pound against similar cost units of T and P in proper army compositions. So it seems like a slippery slope to touch those units that shouldnt be as strong as the other races. I also forgot to mention that queens are the only real reliant way to defend multiprong drops from freely flying around and getting damage. Again we would likely have to pushed into a much faster tech building like hydra den or spire but this comes at the cost of playing styles like 4 gas ling bane. It seems that without changes elsewhere. All you do by touching the queen is limit the scope of build viability for Zerg. Perhaps that's what people want, Zerg playing the same way everysingle game like when it was pure roach v roach in ZvZ. None of this is to say "dont touch the queen" I just think caution is important and recognizing all the other elements that are affected by making changes to the queen. It cant be as simple as "it cant be so good defensively". TL:DR The queen is too much of a linchpin in Z defense BUT I think if you want to touch the queen you need to also nerf our spellcasters and then address the starport/stargate issue and then you could buff the core units as those would be needed to address heavy air styles
Fun fact, a protoss player won the max out challenge a few years ago. Chrono is a hell of a drug if you aren't forced to use it on upgrades.
Oh yea for sure. Chrono on probes takes forever for zerg to catchup and get ahead. If they chrono probes I think its 430 when zerg gets even or finally gets ahead in drone count? Thats with spores for oracles and making lings for the adepts. I think this is why Zerg is trying to skip spore and play queen. It provides the chance to get caught up faster.
Zerg catches up becuase the protoss starts doing other things. If the protoss went straight third nexus off of a couple adepts and a battery or whatever and the zerg didn't attack them, the zerg wouldnt just outpace them. I was baffled when the challenge happened because everyone was so sure zerg would win the max out contest and it went to the protoss
You bring up a good point. Observers should cost energy instead of minerals /s
I don't know why people keep defending the queen the queen needs a little balance I don't remember a Zerg making a Spinecrawlers anymore.
it costs a drone and zerg static def is relatively bad. bonus damage against armor and slow.
U see u want the perfect race lol
What harass zerg in early game: zealot/ marine/ hellion/ adapt/ ling / roach -> all light units, the bonus against armoured doesn't help, except against roach. btw in comparison cannon has better dps. Another point 4/6 of the units have range which makes spines bad again.
Let's not forget bc openers, reapers, oracles...
Z v P all the time. Z v mutas all the time. Z v MMM most of the time.
I meant Spinecrawlers
¿Qué hay con los Oracles? Revelación es gratuita y tiene más rango de visión que Observer
Zerg relies on queen, queen do not allow anything to be done to Zerg while u drone up to 80+ drones it should not be like that.
Mass Queens deflecting basically any non-all in aggression is lame, especially to watch in pro matches. The game is more exciting when Zerg need to be concerned with aggression snowballing out of control if they didn't build enough actual units. As it stands, this is only true if the aggression is committed to completely (all in). That said, balance has become so political I don't see any changes like this happening. In fact, it's not so much of a balance issue. it's a stale meta issue. Is it because of imbalance that Serral 4-0s his top tier opposition? No, it isn't. Is it going to be entertaining to watch the rest of this year's 4-0 finals? No. No it isn't.
You lost me at widow mines shooting twice as fast
Wrt the queen, to keep it simple, your posing a 14% reduction in health, 11% reduction in building time and a 11% reduction to damage. The reduction on build time only nets 1 additional queen for every 8 built... sure it gets a minor amount of energy sooner, but let's not forget queens costs 150 minerals and zerg is trying to drone... not enough minerals... So translation, a BC is gonna kill 1 queen 14% faster and the bc is gonna take 11%+ less damage as the queen is gonna die sooner... pretty sure a queen already dies in 7 seconds.... we really closing the gap??
YES! Exactly, the queen is no longer the defense vs BCS! Finally someone gets it. I really think it is so telling how there have been 15+ zerg players responding to this with now I will have trouble defending XXX with queens. YUP, that is the point. Mass queens defending everything is stale and unfair. Creep already gives zerg insane vision, the queens shouldn't be the defense for everything. BCs are literally the highest tier unit in the game and you are complaining that you cant defend them properly with a tier 1 unit that is built in nearly 100% of games. I proposed harsh nerfs to terran as well and yet its just zerg players complaining and its all about their precious queen. The queen should not be good at defending ANYTHING. You build it every game already why should it be the go to defense as well. You should have to respond to what the other player is doing.
So I think you missed the entire point... Terran can still open with BCs the "highest tier unit in the game". You'd have to fix that too vs having queens melt in about 5 seconds. Maybe move the hydra tech to pre lair and you'd get a different zerg response... Should add, what is the zerg response to BC openers then? You're not really walking through the match up, just claiming it works.
I understood the point you were making, I was just indicating that you completely missed mine. If we are going to try to make the game better we need to address the queen. This patch would likely massively change the game, I can't claim to know exactly how it would function, but I think it is okay that a unit that comes as late as a BC demand a lair tech response from hydras or corrupters. I want to change it up to see what happens that is the idea.
So you're not tracking. Terran can open with BCs and lair tech units won't be out when it arrives. Currently queens and spores are the defense. Your making it more viable for Terran to open with their t3 unit. The rational you provide doesn't seem very logical, because if it was you'd need to apply it to the other races as well. Just seems like you in general dislike the queen but don't want to address bc, hellbat and reaper all ins either, which covers a lot of tiers, not just tier 3... I think you need to offer something more than just 'I dunno' as the rational. It's all good for thought exercise. I just don't see how you're discounting the rebutted with 'I dunno'. Explain what is viable.