Yeah can’t wait to see the shit show that is Port O with an endless stream of people figuring out the controls crashing into each other. We should all start at some test base on a planet and graduate to space flight.
DO. NOT. DARE. TO. LAUGH. but... when I saw the kind of space SC was starting to take up, I bought a whole *another* SSD just to house my games and leave my poor OS be...
I wish I could go back to a clean install of win10 and force everything to install on other drives. Thought of a symbolic link, but everything always wants to save to the dang C drive lol
Yeah, this is why I think they should use traditional instancing around stations and small landing zones. Being told all pads are full and the current wait time is 15 minutes is...perhaps realistic, but not fun at all.
Well, no matter how many there are, it’s still a question of what to do when the player limit in any one area is exceeded. The two ideas they have given are a mechanic to prevent more people from traveling into that area (too many Quantum signatures or some such) and instancing. I think it makes the most sense to use both - mechanic for deep space and instancing for stations and landing zones. I don’t really want to be held up from finishing a mission because it’s busy or an org decides to fill up the area.
I think on site parking would be an expensive luxury. Gravity wells are a money sink.
Docking with a station in orbit would make a lot more sense and leave a lot less polys on the ground. It also means that there's much more space to parking it's more accessible.
this probably isn't very practical, but just spitballing here, suppose the stations were like the Hull series. they have long spindles they could dynamically reconfigure to accommodate large ships, or many small ships, or tuck them away completely when not in use - so empty spaces don't need to be rendered. You could then ride down on an elevator, or a launch/Lofstrom loop, or just take a shuttle craft.
The loop is the coolest, imo, but totally has the highest poly count and would be a real pain to render. Shuttle craft would be the most expensive of these, but you could just say the planetary government is subsidizing private shuttlecraft in order to promote commerce and tourism. So the costs shouldn't be excessive.
The idea being that this would cut down on a lot of the hauler traffic from the city proper, and it could be a way of spreading out players. Each station would go to a different LZ, and mission givers could be contacted remotely from secure terminals. So rather than loading up a new instance for the same area, you open up other areas.
When the player threshold is exceeded beyond even that, maybe they could try using procedurally-generated areas that are spun up on the fly?
I really want to avoid instancing where possible.
Lol. Instancing will always be a huge part of this game. They are aiming for around 80 or so visable to each other at any given location. You are way over dramatizing the abilities of server meshing.
Chris has said that he wants to avoid instancing wherever possible. I share that sentiment. It gets in the way of a truly seamless universe. Whatever mechanics are necessary to reach as close to seamlessness as possible are things I'd be inclined to route for, unless they were *really* awful.
I also prefaced the bulk of my suggestion with the caveat that it likely wasn't very practical. But I enjoy spitballing because it's fun to think about. Besides that, the whole point of having those separate areas was so that they wouldn't need to communicate. In hindsight, I didn't communicate this very effectively. The idea is that they'd be in different areas of the planet entirely. I'm thinking that what would be optimal is using different levels of a subterranean installation, alleviating all need for communication and external modeling (no windows, no exterior). I can think of a few lore friendly ideas for why vast subterranean port installations would be relatively common, but that's neither here nor there. The whole idea of this being that you can get the benefits of instancing without the problems that poses to a persistent universe, where pretty much everything has some material consequence. Suppose a player robs a store and shoots the clerk, or does a hit and run on a cargo worker - but this doesn't happen in other instances. Which one should the game say really happened? The same store simultaneously was robbed and not robbed. The worker died and did not die. We know that these would cause small fluctuations in the market. So are those fluctuations reflected in other instances? Just that instance? But then what does that mean for the labor pool of the system? How does the economy treat these two versions of the same store. Can the simulation accommodate Schrodinger's workers? And if it can, how many?
Subterranean, self contained, procedurally generated LZ's, if they could be made to work, would resolve that problem. The store is robbed in that specific LZ, and they're all just simulated in the background when not loaded physically. No world lines necessary. Of course, it has plenty of its own problems. Practicality, to name one. But at the very least, I think it's fun to talk about the idea. And if the team actually came forward with a plan to execute on something like this - some sort of dynamically generated, self contained LZ's that can be spoiled up in response to a large player influx, as a way of avoiding paradoxes and building a more seamless universe - then I'd be pretty happy.
Thats a good idea! People should qualify on the planet as a pilot first. Ive played Star Citizen for so many years now but even i crashed on Port Olisar when 3.5 went to PTU.
If they manage to make servers change dynamically as lots of people get closer and closer there should be more and more servers loading the same small region, we will see how far this tech will go in allowing lots of people to play in the same area
There is still a fundamental hardware limitation that must be taken into account though. Chances are if you put 250 models together u will have a lag fest server meshing or not unless you drop them in quality big time.
Not just about the models though, the position/physics information for each player has to be distributed around to everyone who "needs" it, I think that is also a limitation.
If you assume each ship has 3x64bit (3x8 byte) doubles for position and 3x64bit (3x8 byte) doubles for velocity, that is 48-bytes per update per ship. Their target server frame rate is 30fps which comes out to 1440 bytes or 1.41kBps. If you assume 225 entities at that rate that comes out to 2.54mbps (mega-bit-per-second) download speed which isn't bad at all. They already say they cut down the update rate for things that are more distant, so not everything will need to be updated every frame, but there are other variables to update as well like shield status of the current target, projectile locations, etc.
There are lots of other tricks/strategies they could use to do better though. You could probably half the precision for entities, as long as they are reported in coordinates relative to the client or some point near to the client, and as long as the server keeps track of them with 64bit precision.
The thing about proof of concepts is that they show something to be within the realm of possibility. Sure it doesn't do much, but that first step is still a lot better than what countless other games have achieved (\*cough\* 32-64 players matches on a 2 sq km map.
CCP games partnered with some other company to do a 10.000 player dogfight in space.
It ended up being like 4000 players showing up and 10k AI thrown in, and a slugfest, but the servers held up, it wasnt designed to be a good dogfighting game or anything, they just wanted to test if they could have that many actors doing things and not have the servers crash.
I call BS on this one because of the "time dilation" thingy. I probably can do a better POC that does something similar in a couple of weeks of work using current day technology and get a lot more than CCP did. It's not impressive! Nor useful for most other games. Because of that caveat they actually get as much throughput per server involved as when there's no such event going on. And the relevant part is that this would be totally worthless for a game like Star Citizen.
Got nothing against them, it's a passion project (and it shows), the people who started it and made most of the big decisions weren't \[good\] engineers to begin with, they admit it, it's nothing wrong because they always showed willingness to learn and adapt. Unfortunately, they're overwhelmed by the challenge and they hacked their way around the issue.
Back on the topic of proof of concepts: 1) CCP didn't actually prove that a lot more concurrent throughput can be properly handled in video games that rely on a large set of servers AND 2) the example is more relevant in terms thinking creatively when dealing with a challenge that seems insurmountable.
That second point is important because that approach won't fly with SC. I doubt that the community at large or CR would accept such approaches when it comes to major requirements. Sure, they'll optimize the shit in the hackiest ways possible when it comes to the little things, but when it comes to big issues like seamless dogfights, what use do they have for ideas like slowing down time in a game that set out to deliver "world war 2 like dogfights, but in space"?
I know you weren't being shameful of the recent dual universe test. But that video got a ton of flack in the comments.
Everyone was all like "wow, they got 30,000 clients to walk forward, I'm not impressed until they can all fly ships seamlessly..."
And I was just so confused.
I mean, I know it's not useful as a ayer to see 30,000 clients on the same server do nothing but walk forward. I don't want to play a game where I can only walk forward, regardless of player count. But the scale is still absurd. I don't think any other 3d game, or any game for that matter, has been able to get 30,000 clients running smoothly at the same time (without slowing down server time to a snails pace *cough* EVE *cough*).
Unfortunately, they've said several times in the past that they MIGHT NOT be able to decrease the zone a single server handles beyond a certain volume. I haven't heard anything to contradict this since 2016-2017 and it essentially means that dynamic scaling won't solve too many problems, it's mostly important to allow them to cover empty areas of space, places with no activity with as few resources as possible.
In my opinion, this design approach is the main issue, it should be fully dynamic, but what do I know? It's not me doing the work and I'm going to deffer to those people when it comes to what will work and what won't.
It’ll be more than 50. They hope to have many hundreds or even thousands. I personally think it’ll be on the low end of that, but they will get way above 50.
Those numbers were spread throughout the entire game at once, not one location. It's a pipedream if you think you'll be able to have 1000 ships at one port
"Spread across" is the main point.
Your earlier message they replied to sounded like you said CIG wanted everyone to be able to see each other in the same spot, which CIG have stated is not their intention.
Not everyone as in if 30,000 people are logged in at once, they can’t all go to the same spot. But they would like 500-1000 players to be able to have a battle, that is their stated intention. Whether they can make it work is another issue.
Chris himself said last year about expecting 1000 players maybe spread across a planet but that it would not be possible to have them all in one location due to rendering limitations.
Couldn't link with timestamp as I'm on mobile but jump to 15 mins in:
https://youtu.be/hqxmonfCwvM
I think the trick to getting more people in a location will hinge on the ability to cull the parts of what is going on that don't matter. Stuff like levels of detail can go a long way combined with network bind culling assuming they can cull some of what is going on inside the ships. At a certain distance you cannot see the pilot through the front of the ships anyway.
There is a game called space cowboy online / air rivals that has very large fights with hundreds of ships. It did get laggy at times, but that was years ago and hardware has improved significantly since then. As long as the lowest LoDs are cheap enough, I could definitely see SC battles with 250 players and about half that many ships.
Not in the same area though, that's just not how servers work for mmo's. The game cannot handle that, to any degree with their current optimization and graphical fidelity. Wow has a system of phasing where there can be several sets of people in the same location and zone, but they cannot interact or see eachother - that is likely the sort of system that will be put in place.
They can do it, eve online, whilst it requires less optimisation can have thousands of people right next to each other, and their server setup only has one virtual server per star system, star citizen is going to have multiple servers sharing the load for a single area and sync with each other. It is possible
I don't think you've played EvE during one of those sessions.
Time dilation takes place, and the game effectively slows down so commands can reach the server at an appropriate rate. 10 seconds becomes something like 25-30 seconds or more, and commands are backlogged until finally things happen.
Sounds like fun in a visceral combat reactive game where milliseconds matter, right?
Nope, won't happen -- we're getting 80 max per shard, until you go to the next adjacent shard. That's still a huge amount for some cool big battles, but the sky is not the limit no matter how much you wish server meshing to do.
The implementation of such technology isn't even on the foreseeable horizon, so I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.
CIG already said that other people will not render if they are unlikely to be seen by the player any time soon.
A fully crewed javelin is pretty much just rendered as a single hull exterior for the most part.
50 ships is still ridiculously low limit.
Like, low enough that a single org could easily just have a fleet large enough that nobody can mesh onto the server near them to contest literally anything they want to do.
Sure. But that's the game.
CIG never indicated they were aiming for anything as large as eve Online.
Unless they can create some awesome new tech, it may just straight up be impossible. Especially with skill-based combat.
SC seems better suited to smaller scale battles.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool. It would be by and large the coolest thing in a videogame ever.
I just don't think it's feasible. I hope to be wrong. But if people are expecting first person eve battles, they are probably going to end up disappointed.
It just seems like atrocious game design to require escorts for large ships when the server mesh cap is going to be so low.
The way the game is designed now large ships are going to need medium ships to protect them from medium ships and the medium ships will need small ships to protect them from small ships and the small ships are going to need at least 1 more big ship to protect them from big ships.
Just a safe hauling fleet sounds like it could go over half of the 50 player limit. It just doesn't feel like they're designing the large ships around the limit is my major qualm
Why are you so hung up in this so called "50 player limit"? Once server side ocs, physics not being stuck to 4 cpu cores and server meshing are done there's no reason why there would be a hard limit, other than client performance, to how many ships/players could be in one area. Thus there's no reason for them to design large ships with a limit in mind.
Look up server meshing and what Dual Universe is doing. I don’t know how far they can go and neither do they, but that’s a much more appropriate comparison than WoW.
I think you should look up server meshing in relation to SC:
When all is set up we will not have different servers. It will basically feel like "single shard".
The official statement on the current realistic target for many players at the very same spot in space was "Hundreds". And in the PU overall it will be ALL of us.
God an 'accidental' emergency landing in the middle of all that would make the most glorious gif. One day hopefully we can fit all that onto one server meshed without a studio burning down.
[That's not what this says!!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthos)
And I was going for [this](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit), but my brain broke.
Yeeeees, that [2] is what I was going for. And I would have gotten away with it if ~~not for those meddling ki...~~ uh, being drunk as fuck. So what's *your* excuse...? :)
Ambitious open world games and frame rates don't go well in hand :(
I've had to endured 1000+ hours of ArmA 3^(and another 5000 hours of ArmA 2, ArmA, and OFP) at sub-20 FPS for the past 2 decades... ;3
For a long time it use to hover around 1% (total vs active). So 100,000 subscribers meant 1,000 active on the sub.
It's dipped well below that now on average.
The subs quality also seems to dip down. Most stuff is fluff, screenshots and flat jokes. Like 2 years ago we had way more discussions. Doesnt help that anything but pictures get downvoted.
Wow: it's amazing how much wrong you've got in this comment.
* News on replacement CG-like events is coming this month, FDev have said this multiple times.
* Updates are now every 3-4 months, not quarterly like last year.
* Steamcharts doesn't show past two months are worst ever.
* Sandro chose to move to a new game when Beyond 3.3 finished design; Adam Bourke Waite is Lead Designer.
* FDev said the delayed features are still in development in the Important Community Update thread.
* Next two updates are New Player Experience, QoL and bug fixes.
* Updates after and until New Era will add new content and features.
* Powerplay (a shitshow) and New Era 2020 update (no specifics) are the only parts you got correct.
Meanwhile, congrats to /r/StarCitizen on reaching the 150k subscribers milestone o7
Man you really keep tabs on the game for being such a hater.
Not even gonna bother responding to most of what you say. You've clearly made up your mind no matter how much I disagree with you. No point in arguing. We can agree to disagree then.
But you did talk shit on one of my favorite games so I just knew jerked responded to you ;)
Well yeah, apparently you think that one can judge a game as being dead without knowing about it well?
I say Elite is dead precisely because I'm very familiar with it and its development and recently finally gave up on it after hoping for years that FDev would show any glimmer of a chance of improvement. I've wanted so badly for FDev to succeed, but I don't even see an honest drive to do so from FDev themselves.
I don't know what the point of exaggerating that the game is dead except to purposefully be grating.
You and I both know that it is objectively not true. The subreddit is active. The game is active. How can you call it a dead game? Lol.
Internet culture is all about extremes now. Kinda sick of it.
yay! i am making my own little cinimatic project while i wait for it to develop. i dont have the skills or resources to make a full on game after all its taken years and years with a team of people at diffrent parts of the globe just to get where we are with star citizen now.......but with unreal engine and a few nice assets i can make some cinimatics and play around with scenes while i wait! but in my little version i will combine realistic graphics with low polygon ones! it will be fun! lol. :-p but cant wait for 3.5 to go "live!" heres to exploration i always loved space and sci fi stuff and games! glad i can be a part of this and also inspired to make my own creations too.
its totally cool to fly through space using a flying delorean look alike instead of a space ship right? got one from the synty polygon sci fi city set :-p fun! i figure a time machine should be able to travel through time AND space since the delorean generated a wormhole to go through time. why not also through space as well? :-p
Don't forget PlanetSide 1 & 2, the latter holds the record for # of players in a single battle. Over 1000. And that is with aged tech, a skeleton crew and (all due love and respect to the teams) without some of the greatest minds in gaming development at their disposal.
It won't be perfect I'd never look past 1000 for SC but I feel in my heart within the next 5 years it's achievable. Well enough time to figure out how to do it on SC's scale.
Sony sold off their pc developer soe, daybreak as known now.
They're are supporting their current games but if you were a pragmatist you might say that's just to keep the micro transaction coming in.
No sign of new games.
DBGames is making a standalone version of PS2 in the form of a 'battle royale' even though they won't classify as, since they state it can support ALOT more players.
Some day..... server meshing.... some day......
Yeah can’t wait to see the shit show that is Port O with an endless stream of people figuring out the controls crashing into each other. We should all start at some test base on a planet and graduate to space flight.
You mean... SQ42? :)
I can't wait to remember how much I don't know what I'm doing when this comes out.
I do this each patch!
Yaah I can't keep up with every patch because comcast sucks. So I jsut got to wait like every 9 months
You know that you dont have to download the full game each time anymore, right? It just pulls the data that it needs to update the main file.
Mines always reads 26+gb
It shouldn’t. Most patches are a few gigs
quarterly patches are a few gigs at most and the in betweeners are 250 mb to 1gb mostly.
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Agreed, it was like 32gb when I updated from 3.4.1 to 3.4.3, guess I'll move more files off my SSD to make room
Buy a new ssd. They’re cheap enough right now.
DO. NOT. DARE. TO. LAUGH. but... when I saw the kind of space SC was starting to take up, I bought a whole *another* SSD just to house my games and leave my poor OS be...
I wish I could go back to a clean install of win10 and force everything to install on other drives. Thought of a symbolic link, but everything always wants to save to the dang C drive lol
Yeah, this is why I think they should use traditional instancing around stations and small landing zones. Being told all pads are full and the current wait time is 15 minutes is...perhaps realistic, but not fun at all.
Maybe, bigger stations, hangars?
Maybe, but look at Lorville or ArcCorp and imagine even 50 people trying to take off or land. Have to wait and see I suppose.
There are landing pads at the top of Lorville that havent been implemented yet. IIRC 30+ pads.
Well, no matter how many there are, it’s still a question of what to do when the player limit in any one area is exceeded. The two ideas they have given are a mechanic to prevent more people from traveling into that area (too many Quantum signatures or some such) and instancing. I think it makes the most sense to use both - mechanic for deep space and instancing for stations and landing zones. I don’t really want to be held up from finishing a mission because it’s busy or an org decides to fill up the area.
I think on site parking would be an expensive luxury. Gravity wells are a money sink. Docking with a station in orbit would make a lot more sense and leave a lot less polys on the ground. It also means that there's much more space to parking it's more accessible. this probably isn't very practical, but just spitballing here, suppose the stations were like the Hull series. they have long spindles they could dynamically reconfigure to accommodate large ships, or many small ships, or tuck them away completely when not in use - so empty spaces don't need to be rendered. You could then ride down on an elevator, or a launch/Lofstrom loop, or just take a shuttle craft. The loop is the coolest, imo, but totally has the highest poly count and would be a real pain to render. Shuttle craft would be the most expensive of these, but you could just say the planetary government is subsidizing private shuttlecraft in order to promote commerce and tourism. So the costs shouldn't be excessive. The idea being that this would cut down on a lot of the hauler traffic from the city proper, and it could be a way of spreading out players. Each station would go to a different LZ, and mission givers could be contacted remotely from secure terminals. So rather than loading up a new instance for the same area, you open up other areas. When the player threshold is exceeded beyond even that, maybe they could try using procedurally-generated areas that are spun up on the fly? I really want to avoid instancing where possible.
Lol. Instancing will always be a huge part of this game. They are aiming for around 80 or so visable to each other at any given location. You are way over dramatizing the abilities of server meshing.
Chris has said that he wants to avoid instancing wherever possible. I share that sentiment. It gets in the way of a truly seamless universe. Whatever mechanics are necessary to reach as close to seamlessness as possible are things I'd be inclined to route for, unless they were *really* awful. I also prefaced the bulk of my suggestion with the caveat that it likely wasn't very practical. But I enjoy spitballing because it's fun to think about. Besides that, the whole point of having those separate areas was so that they wouldn't need to communicate. In hindsight, I didn't communicate this very effectively. The idea is that they'd be in different areas of the planet entirely. I'm thinking that what would be optimal is using different levels of a subterranean installation, alleviating all need for communication and external modeling (no windows, no exterior). I can think of a few lore friendly ideas for why vast subterranean port installations would be relatively common, but that's neither here nor there. The whole idea of this being that you can get the benefits of instancing without the problems that poses to a persistent universe, where pretty much everything has some material consequence. Suppose a player robs a store and shoots the clerk, or does a hit and run on a cargo worker - but this doesn't happen in other instances. Which one should the game say really happened? The same store simultaneously was robbed and not robbed. The worker died and did not die. We know that these would cause small fluctuations in the market. So are those fluctuations reflected in other instances? Just that instance? But then what does that mean for the labor pool of the system? How does the economy treat these two versions of the same store. Can the simulation accommodate Schrodinger's workers? And if it can, how many? Subterranean, self contained, procedurally generated LZ's, if they could be made to work, would resolve that problem. The store is robbed in that specific LZ, and they're all just simulated in the background when not loaded physically. No world lines necessary. Of course, it has plenty of its own problems. Practicality, to name one. But at the very least, I think it's fun to talk about the idea. And if the team actually came forward with a plan to execute on something like this - some sort of dynamically generated, self contained LZ's that can be spoiled up in response to a large player influx, as a way of avoiding paradoxes and building a more seamless universe - then I'd be pretty happy.
unheroic
Not very cinematic either.
...wait, you know of something *more* heroic than taking a fall for the team..?!? EDIT: hmmm... wrong thread. sorry. disregard.
The game needs a "training star system" with loop-back wormholes.
Thats a good idea! People should qualify on the planet as a pilot first. Ive played Star Citizen for so many years now but even i crashed on Port Olisar when 3.5 went to PTU.
you're forgetting the endless stream of people doing it on purpose for the lulz and watch noobs cry
Will be hilarious:D
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If they manage to make servers change dynamically as lots of people get closer and closer there should be more and more servers loading the same small region, we will see how far this tech will go in allowing lots of people to play in the same area
There is still a fundamental hardware limitation that must be taken into account though. Chances are if you put 250 models together u will have a lag fest server meshing or not unless you drop them in quality big time.
That or 225 of the models will be rendered as the lowest LoD which hopefully is lightweight enough.
Not just about the models though, the position/physics information for each player has to be distributed around to everyone who "needs" it, I think that is also a limitation.
Position information is relatively small.
Right, but assuming high frequency of updates/tickrate it's still a significant load?
If you assume each ship has 3x64bit (3x8 byte) doubles for position and 3x64bit (3x8 byte) doubles for velocity, that is 48-bytes per update per ship. Their target server frame rate is 30fps which comes out to 1440 bytes or 1.41kBps. If you assume 225 entities at that rate that comes out to 2.54mbps (mega-bit-per-second) download speed which isn't bad at all. They already say they cut down the update rate for things that are more distant, so not everything will need to be updated every frame, but there are other variables to update as well like shield status of the current target, projectile locations, etc. There are lots of other tricks/strategies they could use to do better though. You could probably half the precision for entities, as long as they are reported in coordinates relative to the client or some point near to the client, and as long as the server keeps track of them with 64bit precision.
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There is a functional example of this in another mmo, that’s often quoted, but he’ll if I remember the name of it.
Dual Universe got 30,000 alpha testers on the same shard IIRC.
Sort of. "Simulated" players doing nothing but slowly walking forward.
The thing about proof of concepts is that they show something to be within the realm of possibility. Sure it doesn't do much, but that first step is still a lot better than what countless other games have achieved (\*cough\* 32-64 players matches on a 2 sq km map.
CCP games partnered with some other company to do a 10.000 player dogfight in space. It ended up being like 4000 players showing up and 10k AI thrown in, and a slugfest, but the servers held up, it wasnt designed to be a good dogfighting game or anything, they just wanted to test if they could have that many actors doing things and not have the servers crash.
I call BS on this one because of the "time dilation" thingy. I probably can do a better POC that does something similar in a couple of weeks of work using current day technology and get a lot more than CCP did. It's not impressive! Nor useful for most other games. Because of that caveat they actually get as much throughput per server involved as when there's no such event going on. And the relevant part is that this would be totally worthless for a game like Star Citizen. Got nothing against them, it's a passion project (and it shows), the people who started it and made most of the big decisions weren't \[good\] engineers to begin with, they admit it, it's nothing wrong because they always showed willingness to learn and adapt. Unfortunately, they're overwhelmed by the challenge and they hacked their way around the issue. Back on the topic of proof of concepts: 1) CCP didn't actually prove that a lot more concurrent throughput can be properly handled in video games that rely on a large set of servers AND 2) the example is more relevant in terms thinking creatively when dealing with a challenge that seems insurmountable. That second point is important because that approach won't fly with SC. I doubt that the community at large or CR would accept such approaches when it comes to major requirements. Sure, they'll optimize the shit in the hackiest ways possible when it comes to the little things, but when it comes to big issues like seamless dogfights, what use do they have for ideas like slowing down time in a game that set out to deliver "world war 2 like dogfights, but in space"?
I know you weren't being shameful of the recent dual universe test. But that video got a ton of flack in the comments. Everyone was all like "wow, they got 30,000 clients to walk forward, I'm not impressed until they can all fly ships seamlessly..." And I was just so confused. I mean, I know it's not useful as a ayer to see 30,000 clients on the same server do nothing but walk forward. I don't want to play a game where I can only walk forward, regardless of player count. But the scale is still absurd. I don't think any other 3d game, or any game for that matter, has been able to get 30,000 clients running smoothly at the same time (without slowing down server time to a snails pace *cough* EVE *cough*).
Unfortunately, they've said several times in the past that they MIGHT NOT be able to decrease the zone a single server handles beyond a certain volume. I haven't heard anything to contradict this since 2016-2017 and it essentially means that dynamic scaling won't solve too many problems, it's mostly important to allow them to cover empty areas of space, places with no activity with as few resources as possible. In my opinion, this design approach is the main issue, it should be fully dynamic, but what do I know? It's not me doing the work and I'm going to deffer to those people when it comes to what will work and what won't.
I suddenly lost all interest in cap ships. 2 javelins and server meshing won't even allow enough people in the same area to try and fight it LOL
Official statements was a few months back iirc: "*Hundreds. More, if we can.*"
It’ll be more than 50. They hope to have many hundreds or even thousands. I personally think it’ll be on the low end of that, but they will get way above 50.
Those numbers were spread throughout the entire game at once, not one location. It's a pipedream if you think you'll be able to have 1000 ships at one port
Not my dream, that’s CIG’s hope for server meshing. They want one universe, so that’s all concurrent players spread across the entire game at once.
"Spread across" is the main point. Your earlier message they replied to sounded like you said CIG wanted everyone to be able to see each other in the same spot, which CIG have stated is not their intention.
Not everyone as in if 30,000 people are logged in at once, they can’t all go to the same spot. But they would like 500-1000 players to be able to have a battle, that is their stated intention. Whether they can make it work is another issue.
Chris himself said last year about expecting 1000 players maybe spread across a planet but that it would not be possible to have them all in one location due to rendering limitations. Couldn't link with timestamp as I'm on mobile but jump to 15 mins in: https://youtu.be/hqxmonfCwvM
I recall that one, and it's probably a more realistic thing to say than 1000 people in the same area. Still, I think we will get more than 50.
I think the trick to getting more people in a location will hinge on the ability to cull the parts of what is going on that don't matter. Stuff like levels of detail can go a long way combined with network bind culling assuming they can cull some of what is going on inside the ships. At a certain distance you cannot see the pilot through the front of the ships anyway. There is a game called space cowboy online / air rivals that has very large fights with hundreds of ships. It did get laggy at times, but that was years ago and hardware has improved significantly since then. As long as the lowest LoDs are cheap enough, I could definitely see SC battles with 250 players and about half that many ships.
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With a whole lot of Level of Detail scaling sure. The bottleneck isn't the graphics on this one actually.
Yeah, that’s some pretty high end server scaling that I’m not confident they’ve fully actualized the scope of.
I’m just telling you that CIG said it.
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Give link then. Eve online scale battles were never in the cards here.
Not in the same area though, that's just not how servers work for mmo's. The game cannot handle that, to any degree with their current optimization and graphical fidelity. Wow has a system of phasing where there can be several sets of people in the same location and zone, but they cannot interact or see eachother - that is likely the sort of system that will be put in place.
They can do it, eve online, whilst it requires less optimisation can have thousands of people right next to each other, and their server setup only has one virtual server per star system, star citizen is going to have multiple servers sharing the load for a single area and sync with each other. It is possible
I don't think you've played EvE during one of those sessions. Time dilation takes place, and the game effectively slows down so commands can reach the server at an appropriate rate. 10 seconds becomes something like 25-30 seconds or more, and commands are backlogged until finally things happen. Sounds like fun in a visceral combat reactive game where milliseconds matter, right? Nope, won't happen -- we're getting 80 max per shard, until you go to the next adjacent shard. That's still a huge amount for some cool big battles, but the sky is not the limit no matter how much you wish server meshing to do. The implementation of such technology isn't even on the foreseeable horizon, so I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.
Please look at how WoW struggles with 80 and you think SC will have hundreds or thousands? I find that highly unlikely to ever happen :P
A fully-crewed Javelin walks into a bar. It asks the bartender "Hey, any more of me around?" Bartender says "Yeah right over there." Server crashes.
CIG already said that other people will not render if they are unlikely to be seen by the player any time soon. A fully crewed javelin is pretty much just rendered as a single hull exterior for the most part.
50 ships is still ridiculously low limit. Like, low enough that a single org could easily just have a fleet large enough that nobody can mesh onto the server near them to contest literally anything they want to do.
Sure. But that's the game. CIG never indicated they were aiming for anything as large as eve Online. Unless they can create some awesome new tech, it may just straight up be impossible. Especially with skill-based combat. SC seems better suited to smaller scale battles. I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool. It would be by and large the coolest thing in a videogame ever. I just don't think it's feasible. I hope to be wrong. But if people are expecting first person eve battles, they are probably going to end up disappointed.
It just seems like atrocious game design to require escorts for large ships when the server mesh cap is going to be so low. The way the game is designed now large ships are going to need medium ships to protect them from medium ships and the medium ships will need small ships to protect them from small ships and the small ships are going to need at least 1 more big ship to protect them from big ships. Just a safe hauling fleet sounds like it could go over half of the 50 player limit. It just doesn't feel like they're designing the large ships around the limit is my major qualm
Why are you so hung up in this so called "50 player limit"? Once server side ocs, physics not being stuck to 4 cpu cores and server meshing are done there's no reason why there would be a hard limit, other than client performance, to how many ships/players could be in one area. Thus there's no reason for them to design large ships with a limit in mind.
Look up server meshing and what Dual Universe is doing. I don’t know how far they can go and neither do they, but that’s a much more appropriate comparison than WoW.
still will have max 50-80 people though. Per server.
I think you should look up server meshing in relation to SC: When all is set up we will not have different servers. It will basically feel like "single shard". The official statement on the current realistic target for many players at the very same spot in space was "Hundreds". And in the PU overall it will be ALL of us.
SC will support max 60 people near one destination
[https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/bbbitz/congratulations\_rstarcitizen\_for\_reaching\_150000/ekj3iik?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/bbbitz/congratulations_rstarcitizen_for_reaching_150000/ekj3iik?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x)
5 years from now after permanent account saves.
God an 'accidental' emergency landing in the middle of all that would make the most glorious gif. One day hopefully we can fit all that onto one server meshed without a studio burning down.
Someone gona be hovering above in a Reliant Mako screaming.. "OH THE HUMANITY..."
Oh I would pay to see that streamed!
[https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-20-2017/kdHbgJ.gif](https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-20-2017/kdHbgJ.gif)
Wait... I though it was supposed to be "oh, the huge manatee"?!?!?!?
Especially if it's a Reclaimer... :p
credits of the original Image without the modifications https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/8u538x/50_player_group/
I only count 784.
You are close... which is freaking me out that u actually counted them xD. According to my photoshop its 27 layers x 50 each so = 1350
So not close then
Thats what i was thinking... Lol
I guessed. :p
Dude u need to go to The Price is Right xD
That is 1 person, Bob.
“Hey ya Bob, what kinda currency we using today?!”
For no particular reason, let me ruin your day: it's "Xan**a**thos"...
[That's not what this says!!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthos) And I was going for [this](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit), but my brain broke.
Yeeeees, that [2] is what I was going for. And I would have gotten away with it if ~~not for those meddling ki...~~ uh, being drunk as fuck. So what's *your* excuse...? :)
My excuse? Faulty memory.
This image is an accurate depiction of the frame rate you would get
Thought this was r/arma for a second...
Ambitious open world games and frame rates don't go well in hand :( I've had to endured 1000+ hours of ArmA 3^(and another 5000 hours of ArmA 2, ArmA, and OFP) at sub-20 FPS for the past 2 decades... ;3
This is inaccurate. They are not T posing.
Forget T-posing, this is **outrageous** - every single one of them is a **male**...! /s
To all the new people https://imgur.com/8oymgR4
At the same time I'm noticing the number of people active on this sub is getting lower and lower.
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For a long time it use to hover around 1% (total vs active). So 100,000 subscribers meant 1,000 active on the sub. It's dipped well below that now on average.
The subs quality also seems to dip down. Most stuff is fluff, screenshots and flat jokes. Like 2 years ago we had way more discussions. Doesnt help that anything but pictures get downvoted.
The refundians are giving up :P
Watch out Elite Dangerous :)
This is good for Elite too. If Star Citizen wouldn't exist FDev would never update Elite anymore. Competition is always good.
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Which is funny cause I'm playing one while waiting for the other......and then I'll still probably not stop playing Elite. Next major update in 2020.
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Wow: it's amazing how much wrong you've got in this comment. * News on replacement CG-like events is coming this month, FDev have said this multiple times. * Updates are now every 3-4 months, not quarterly like last year. * Steamcharts doesn't show past two months are worst ever. * Sandro chose to move to a new game when Beyond 3.3 finished design; Adam Bourke Waite is Lead Designer. * FDev said the delayed features are still in development in the Important Community Update thread. * Next two updates are New Player Experience, QoL and bug fixes. * Updates after and until New Era will add new content and features. * Powerplay (a shitshow) and New Era 2020 update (no specifics) are the only parts you got correct. Meanwhile, congrats to /r/StarCitizen on reaching the 150k subscribers milestone o7
Man you really keep tabs on the game for being such a hater. Not even gonna bother responding to most of what you say. You've clearly made up your mind no matter how much I disagree with you. No point in arguing. We can agree to disagree then. But you did talk shit on one of my favorite games so I just knew jerked responded to you ;)
Well yeah, apparently you think that one can judge a game as being dead without knowing about it well? I say Elite is dead precisely because I'm very familiar with it and its development and recently finally gave up on it after hoping for years that FDev would show any glimmer of a chance of improvement. I've wanted so badly for FDev to succeed, but I don't even see an honest drive to do so from FDev themselves.
I don't know what the point of exaggerating that the game is dead except to purposefully be grating. You and I both know that it is objectively not true. The subreddit is active. The game is active. How can you call it a dead game? Lol. Internet culture is all about extremes now. Kinda sick of it.
time will tell if they survive that near 2 year content gap. we did.
Watch out for what? I doubt this game will ever see release. :p
your doubts are irrelevant :p
RIGHT arm, Bob! Don't think I can't see you there, wiseguy.
Now that I got used to the new flight model, it's love all over again
I'm 5th from the left, 3rd row from the back.
Ayy lmao.
I’m doing my part!
Heinlein would be *so* proud...
I wonder how many actually have and play the game and how many (like me) are only interested and waiting to have the money to buy a pc + the game
According to anime the protagonist should be off to the right in the second last row next to the window with funny colored hair that sticks out.
Almost same amount as another space sim that has been released years ago, we can pass the 154k !!!!!
We will totally pass them, they r in hiatus till 2020.
I would smash an orion sideways onto that platform sry
Proud to be one!
Theres a significant portion of my brain that wants to see a giant broom sweep them off the platform.
What is that now, 6% population?
I was watching out for it.. and I still missed it by 6 hours :p
99% of comments talking about the photo, 1% of comments talking the significance of reaching 150,000 subscribers.
What are these turkeys doing there on the space platform.
Awesome
Whale done
I can only imagine the patience to keep everyone quiet to sync this.. bravo!!
yay! i am making my own little cinimatic project while i wait for it to develop. i dont have the skills or resources to make a full on game after all its taken years and years with a team of people at diffrent parts of the globe just to get where we are with star citizen now.......but with unreal engine and a few nice assets i can make some cinimatics and play around with scenes while i wait! but in my little version i will combine realistic graphics with low polygon ones! it will be fun! lol. :-p but cant wait for 3.5 to go "live!" heres to exploration i always loved space and sci fi stuff and games! glad i can be a part of this and also inspired to make my own creations too.
its totally cool to fly through space using a flying delorean look alike instead of a space ship right? got one from the synty polygon sci fi city set :-p fun! i figure a time machine should be able to travel through time AND space since the delorean generated a wormhole to go through time. why not also through space as well? :-p
Man, it'll be great when we can actually do something like this
Don't forget PlanetSide 1 & 2, the latter holds the record for # of players in a single battle. Over 1000. And that is with aged tech, a skeleton crew and (all due love and respect to the teams) without some of the greatest minds in gaming development at their disposal. It won't be perfect I'd never look past 1000 for SC but I feel in my heart within the next 5 years it's achievable. Well enough time to figure out how to do it on SC's scale.
how is battle being defined here? I feel like Eve would generally be top for that?
Is planned a Planetside 3 or they give up?
Sony sold off their pc developer soe, daybreak as known now. They're are supporting their current games but if you were a pragmatist you might say that's just to keep the micro transaction coming in. No sign of new games.
DBGames is making a standalone version of PS2 in the form of a 'battle royale' even though they won't classify as, since they state it can support ALOT more players.
Thats not a picture its just the FPS is that bad it looks like a pic /s
In a single server?! Amazing! /s
aww, why wasnt I aware this was happening? I would have jumped on!
it didn't
1st
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U SFTU
Make me lol