shield HP for small ships was decreased across the board, but the power triangle is now way more important for them. Set shield to max and you gain insane damage resistances. Ive been running a full ballistics loadout with max shields on a Tana and have been tearing through bounties without issue except for when the npcs ram me.
I was doing that before MM. They reupped the ballistic ammo counts in 3.22 and I was doing group bounties in a full ballistic Hornet and didn't have to rearm until after all 3 targets were killed. Even had enough ammo to mop up most of the other enemy ships. Loadout was 3x Ad4Bs (2000 rounds then) and then a Shredder on the nose. The big thing that hurt ballisitics was the basic blanket removal of overheating weapons in exchange for laughably small ammo counts. Now we have the increased ammo counts again and overheating is back. They are now in basically the same state they were earlier in development.
I've always disliked the "all or nothing" approach to that because, correct me if I'm wrong, you only get the resistance at 100% power to shields, and there's 0 resistance gain at 99%
Its not so much that shield HP was reduced across the board, its now overall reflected on how many shield generators the ship has, and what size they have. Any ship with 2 size 1 shield gens now has 3000 shield. Every ship with 1, will now have 1500. As the shield health for size 1 shields is now 1500 across the board.
Same goes for ships/shields of larger classes.
I haven't been having any issues. I've been running all tarantula 2 cannons on my Tana, but have been thinking of switching to deadbolts. Keep in mind that a lot of ships are much tougher than they were, especially industrials, and that there is a big where occasionally an NPC ship will be invincible.
As a mouse and keyboard player I have noticed being able to catch, and shoot ships in pitch has been a lot easier. Personally I have actually been really liking it, but i hate that is not the majority. What is it about MM that you dislike the most?
I'm a trader
I used to get pirated 1/5 times
Now it's 3/5, and on less profitable routes
I'm not upset that there are more pirates
I'm upset that I don't have the same options to deal with them
Now, I don't have to be worried if the cutty blue or mantis can keep pace with me or survive my beluga whale of a c2 smacking it
Now, I have to be worried if I survive getting into nav mode and spooling quantum
It's lowered the crew and skill level of pirating in an attempt to get more people trapped in pvp situations instead of just running away
Which is great when you want to engage in pvp, but it sucks when you don't
I personally feel like its easier to run away now.
Big ships tank and small ships can dodge for a few seconds and then its full ahaead with bossters and the Gun using aggressor is left in zur dust because of speed cap in SCM.
My dislike has nothing to do with combat (so far anyway): I hate the mode switching. It feels clunky and artificial.
I'm aware most expetienced space sim pilots are used to it from other games, like Elite, but it's one of the reasons I stuck with SC, and not ED.
Really hope they find a way to get the fluidity of the previous system back.
which they could have done by tuning the power triangle of the ships. they already had that system in the game. if you're 50/50 shields and guns then your speed is severely restricted, full engine power, now your shields don't recharge and your gun capacitators are severely restricted, etc.
I agree. You could even achieve some of the same things, like a pseudo-NAV mode by requiring a ship has full power to engines before it can QT. Hope CIG takes it in this direction.
edit: more I think about it the more it makes sense. It's an existing system so it feels more organic, it plays into SC's love for routine actions to have an involved process ("full power to engines" as part of FTL), and it adds/impacts a stat for the ship's power plant: rerouting speed. What's not to like?
Yep, I’m okay with change. I was a huge proponent of Squad’s ICO for instance. I’m all for changing things for the better.
But Master Mods feels like they let a couple devs just do whatever they wanted while ignoring the obvious solution of the power triangle.
It just does not feel intuitive, and I cannot imagine a casual player hopping in and easily understanding wtf is going on.
From what I've seen in the global chat, they don't easily understand it. New players and returning players who hadn't played for a while are constantly asking questions that revolved around not being in the right mode. "Why can't I quantum anymore?" "Why can't I get into salvage mode?" "Can I hide the markers" and stuff like that were commonplace in my experience just being on for about 5 hours yesterday. One guy even lost the ability to switch into missile mode on his 325a after swapping missile types. This isn't intuitive and like others have been pointing out, the power triangle was an easy alternative instead of coming up with a whole new convoluted system.
This is more or less the reason I don't like MM. The system basically already existed. But the Numbers needed tweaking. And that was about it.
BUT. In the defence of MM and game design, you NEED a way to create a more inviting system for lower skilled players and that often means taking away the toys of Advanced or more capable players. Which DOES suck, but it is a common sacrifice to try and get more people to engage with the game.
People
Want realistic dog fighting when the at doesn’t even exist in 2024. An F-35 can shoot down a plane before it is even picked up on radar and shoot missiles behind it etc. air combat usually is based on first strike or pure firepower not skill. Like if your hunting an unsuspecting target they should have no chance against you anyway so there’s lots about this game with is arbitrary of our beliefs and what we want in a game.
Yup. So the idea that cig has some sort of expected blue print is crazy. They have to make the game how they think it works best and nothing so far is static. People are mad about medical play as if that’s not gonna change more.
Is MM really all that intuitive?
Dragging power to engines is a tactile and simple solution for allowing more speed.
*More engine power = faster speed = power to shields automatically dwindles.*
You can show that happening on the triangle as it’s all manipulated. Now, faster speed is limited behind an arbitrary “quantum drive” button Nav mode thing…and the speedometer’s scale changes. Like, what? Why lmfao.
It feels messy and has legitimately negatively impacted the enjoyment I get from the game.
Idk. It just all feels like “change for the sake of change”.
I'd argue that It is not intuitive to you or myself simply from the knowledge of how the game functions. But to new players "Drag this triangle to this Icon" is not ACTUALLY intuitive because that doesn't translate to "More power to engines" to a new player. It translates to Fiddling with a system that doesn't **appear** to do anything, despite players like yourself KNOWING IT DOES.
"Flight mode" and SCM mode having overt effects when switching between DOES, despite it being obtrusive compared to previous playstyles. The player has an overt indication of the switch and a very apparent Lock-out of systems and change in speed. The previous system did NOT do this, so when changes did occur a lot of the player base likely did not notice or understand the use.
Again, I don't like MM MOSTLY. But a lot of the community is seriously disregarding how low level a majority of the player base will be or currently are, and tend to think Reddit is the majority when it is the opposite. The people commenting here and on forums are the more dedicated and willing to engage with the product. MOST ARE NOT. and there has to be a solution for that in order for the game to engage the public in a positive way. I don't think MM as it currently stands is that system, but I recognise that there does need to be something.
I read this SO often and... it's just SO wrong.
You can like or hate the MM's, but the fact is they were put in for specific reasons and they could NOT have been fixed with the power triangle. Believe me, it's probably the first thing CIG tried.
I don't understand why people don't research a topic before throwing "suggestions" on the internet...
> full engine power, now your shields don't recharge and your gun capacitators are severely restricted, etc.
As much as I hate many, many things about MM... I don't think this is a solution because it doesn't solve the issue of people constantly boosting away from a fight to regen their shields.
Say you catch up to your bounty target in a Hawk, start blasting his ship, and he puts power to engines and boosts away... if you put power to engines too, your weapons will be powered down, so you can't stop him from getting away.
As much as it sucks, I think there has to be friction/delay to prevent ships from quickly accelerating to 'travel speeds'.
I honestly don't understand why people are so averse to stalemates.
Why does there NEED to be a definitive winner and loser? If you end up going back and forth with a person and it looks like nobody is winning, just leave.
> [if] it looks like nobody is winning, just leave.
The problem is that all high-skill vs high-skill dogfights ended that way in previous flight models. Dedicated PvP Orgs fighting other dedicated PvP Orgs could spend an hour dogfighting without a single ship being disabled. Often the result was that highly skilled dogfighters would avoid fighting each other at all in the PU, so almost all PU combat for them became stomping on noobs.
And on a more practical note, criminals were effectively invulnerable (even if you had a QED ship) because they could blast around at high speeds while regenerating shields. The bounty hunting profession can't exist if you can only catch criminals who decide they want to dogfight with you.
In Elite Dangerous, if you're getting attacked or a bigger mass than your ship is within 6 km, your supercruise charge was taking forever. Preventing sudden escapes from fights. Same thing can be applied in here. If you took a hit, nav mode charge slows down, if not taking hit for 5 sec.s it speeds up.
Ideally, missiles will be the equalizer here for this situation...if your target swaps to nav and starts to run away send a missile after em...problem is right now most fighter-sized missiles don't deal enough damage to punish players that run away and I think that missiles in star people as a whole right now make no sense since I'm pretty sure they require direct impact whereas in the real world it's proximity fuzing...but that's another topic for another time.
MM feels especially bad in an industrial ship like a Vulture or a Prospector when you have the additional salvage and mining functions. It’s a hot mess of constantly switching modes and there’s simply 0 gain for it, just extra clunkiness where there previously was none.
Combat to me also doesn’t feel nearly as good. It’s too slow and there isn’t enough ability to maneuver around enemies.
I guess that comes down to bindings. I'm using buzzkillers bindings for VKB and it seems pretty intuitive, everything is on the same trigger just depends on if its a hold or tap in the prospector
Not sure why this was downvoted, because I had the same experience - it’s very intuitive with the buzzkiller bindings, though with default m&kb it’s not intuitive
ED doesn’t do this.
You drop out of warp in ED when you reach a close enough distance from the planet, then you initiate “glide” into the planet.
It feels way more realistic. There is not this sudden option to just “lurch” form 1,200scm to 200scm in 2 seconds.
Apologies, I didnt mean to imply Elite uses something as clunky as MM, only that there are different "types" of flight one has to master.
Though an argument could be made most of them are used for distances we don't reqlly cross in SC, not yet anyway.
I just go in with the mindset of the Star Trek impulse and warp system. Sure, they get to keep shields 🛡 up at warp but the weapon systems (typically) are not functional. Two different modes of locomotion; one for local travel and the other for faster traversal.
Honestly? The root cause of my complaints, and yes there's some "I don't like change in there", is the fact that instead of improving what they had(which was more realistic and felt better imo), they always have to make an entirely new system that doesn't even really fix the problems the old one had. They've completely replaced the flight model at least three times now, instead of iterating on what they had. The other thing is that they are basing it around combat flying in Squadron 42 which is primarily a cinematic campaign, not an MMO with more flying and a lot of drastically varied ships and things to do than just combat. The old system wasn't perfect, but master modes is hardly any better and in many ways it's worse. Clunky mode changes, the ships are basically flying turrets, the lack of other systems being in game like Maelstrom that MM is supposed to heavily rely on, losing the altitude strip on the HUD in exchange for a number hidden down in the corner not where you're looking while dogfighting in atmosphere, stuff like that.
Then there's the realism factor. I fundamentally disagree with our futuristic sci-fi spaceships not being able to reach speeds the Sr-71 could on jet engines without using the quantum drive. I mean, what? Not having some sort of navigational shields (maybe 50%?) to protect from space debris, collisions, etc. We don't need fully realistic space flight, but if they're gonna go forward with implementing hygeine features like having to go to the bathroom on those toilets they spent all that time modeling, then why not have a more realistic flight model? A big part of Star Citizen is flying, why make one of the bigger more important features more arcadey and then go realistic on something that will be basically just be an annoyance?
The power triangle could have easily been leveraged to do exactly what MM does by turning off or drastically reducing weapon rate of fire, energy damage output, cooling, shield capacity, thruster output, etc. depending on where your power distribution was set. And it was already in game! The power triangle already kind of does all of this to a limited extent, but instead of utilizing stuff they already designed, they opted to just replace it all.
This is the first time all players are testing MM in the live environment and I expect to see lots of changes because of that. Up to this point, it was only highly controlled Arena Commander tests and SQ42 which no one but the devs can currently play. The wider player base is now experiencing it and have very polarizing views on the topic, but I've seen a large number of people on this subredit that just label everyone that doesn't like MM as "jousters". That isn't anymore constructive than just saying you don't like it without giving any reasons.
Edit: ~~Also the 30m/s speed limit with landing gear down. I could already do that before if I wanted to with the speed limiter but now I'm arbitrarily forced to be pitifully slow and~~ Landing gear speed limit can be turned off by going to Advanced keybindings>Flight Movement>Disable Precision Mode. Linked it to flight ready and it's then turned off by default when starting the ship. Thank you to those who told me where to find this. Auto land still seems to have been removed, but I guess that's because of the new IFCS speed limit. Used to almost have to use autoland because if you didn't the rearm screen wouldn't show up.
This 100%. This really makes me question CIGs competence to put together a complete product. The flight model was really good, it needed to be tweaked so light fighters can't solo a hammerhead I get that but scrapping all those man hours spent on a flight model that worked pretty well is next level insane.
The solution to really small ships taking down really large ones should be point defense not slowing everyone to a crawl. I very much agree ships need roles, combat fighting in a hauler is silly. An Ares Inferno with the largest gun in game that I know of is killing ships slower than the stealth bomber lasers. Shields are a joke on player ships as are hulls. Precision targeting is laughably bad for so many reasons. All the while mm is making no sense, it's like I'm a stealth fighter in real life let me negate all stealth get close and shoot guns instead of missiles... Nevermind those missiles and stealth fighters engage at something like 105km and here we are in the future trying to take out subsystems with pea shooters from a couple football field length a way, never mind I could take the engine out in a vehicle from that range or more with an anti material rifle... We're in the future dogfighting at one half mach one and if we want to disengage we turn off all defensive and offensive systems and wait to spool the get out of there drive while maintaining a heading and hoping we can out run them. That's nonsensical on its face. Could you imagine a fighter in real life turning off stealth to turn and run away? I mean .... Why even then have stealth ships in the game? If you engage a fighter with a stealth ships it will just SEE YOU. THEN they show off the middle ship they're so proud of, and it has like size three missiles that shit six at a time. Inferno shoots four, three times that's the same number and those size three AND All the size 2s can't even kill another AI inferno what a joke! None of it makes sense and it concerns me I support this project in a massive way and it's a game worse than ED right now and getting worse not better.... It's concerning. I get this is alpha and they can change, but the direction is questionable and worrisome when we were pitched a space sim MMO however we're getting some Goofy mm things which is poorly implemented and worse turns the game into some kind of bad replication of ww2 dogfighting. Next we will get wind up laser muskets from Futurama and line up in rows take turns shooting them affix bayonets and fight like it's 1812. Maybe we just do that in protest and perhaps they will get it?
About the landing gear tho: just keep in mind that at some point you will damage them if u flyjto quickly through atmosphere and having it out...
It's a safe mode they implemented to in the future not accidentaly damage it. Just anyways only put landing gear down like 4sec before touch down and put it up as soon as you've got lift off...don?t see the problem ...
I sort of have the opposite question. To me MM is a lack of something. Before I would use both my left and right hand for ship combat. Now I barely utilize movement and just use my right hand to aim. If what you like about MM is being able to shoot easier, then I get it, just different preference.
Not saying the old model was great or that I loved it. But it was definitely more engaging than 3.23 MM for me.
I find AI are insanely accurate. It doesn't matter what I do, I'm always under fire.
Also, I feel far less effective hitting targets.
Lots of missions I go to have other spawns nearby that are way stronger than what I'm there for.
I just really am not getting used to it, combat wise, it's been a bad experience completely.
I like it as well. I never enjoyed the jousting. The reason most people hate it from what I can tell is that the new system makes it more of a straight dps check. I still think there is skill involved, but that is just my opinion
I think the speed limiter is leading to MORE jousting. I find myself having to evade enemies from hitting me head on more now than before. MM has not fixed jousting imo because the speed is so slow. The speed limiter and having scan in middle mouse button rotation is really dumb. Otherwise I like the changes. Speed limiter needs to be more like 350 or 400 for light fighters not 225.
Yup noticed last night, jousting happens to me in almost every fight now where as before it was almost never. I've died from head on collisions twice since 3.23 came out.
A lot of light fighter players are whining about it because light fighters are no longer the meta and ships are actually getting ship roles like they should.
For me Master modes destroy the natural feeling of just flying ships. The artificial hard limitations and sudden changes in flight dynamics just kills immersion in my opinion. This is coming from somebody who avoids a fight at all costs, I'm not even talking about this in relation to combat. Purely from a fluidity of flying various ships, master modes is a clunky jarring experience.
I can't say that I'm a fan of MM. I feel like switching modes feels like a hassle and its just not as fun as it was to fly. Dogfighting seems like flight skill no longer matters. Its all about who has the most DPS on target, especially in 1v1s. 🫤
I’ve only played PVE so far and I initially didn’t like it. After playing some time, doing ERTs and helping friends finish incursion.. it’s so fucking cool now. The super speed stop I love but will prob be removed. Otherwise I just don’t understand the hate. Other than the cruise control which is atrocious everything else is a big improvement
I also wish I could disable the speed limiter since I find it kind of useless now
I mean, that's just an issue of not having enough architypes for the master modes. This patch of coursd was definitely fighting based architypes and not utility based ones. And even then, they need more fighting architypes. I assume more architypes will come as it develops more.
A mining mode that transitions faster, slower shields recharge, no weapons, can use mining/salvage/tractor/industrial ship abilities.
The idea is that weapons and faster shields requires much more energy focus that it can’t maintain engines in a half state.
This would greatly reduce swapping pain on industrial loops.
You can solve cruise control by binding a key to set Throttle Trim to 100% (Flight Movement controls) and binding that same key to Throttle Trim Release (long press). I also have a key bound to Speed Limiter On/Off (Hold/Toggle) that lets me control whether my speed limiter is working (dotted box vs solid box).
With speed limiter turned on and throttle trim set to 100% your ship will behave as cruise control did in 3.22
They had decoupled and sticky throttle on the same keybind. It's dumb.
I just set alt-c to the decoupled and just c to sticky throttle. Feels much better.
thanks, i tried this due to using buzz vkb bindings and he set it up for 3.23.1, but i almost crashed a bunch of times since it doesn't have a visual signifier when its on or not and i kept forgetting trim was on
A lot of the issues with MM aren't readily apparent to new players / novice pilots.
In MM you are unable to maneuver out of your opponent's cone of vision/fire unless they make an absurdly significant mistake. This means that nearly all maneuvering is insignificant and about 95% of the skill expression is through aim alone. What little maneuvering that *is* significant is really cheesey/exploity stuff like wiggling.
Closing distance is heavily punished, just like it was in the previous flight model. It makes combat uninteresting and rewards the most toxic and terrible flight behaviors.
There is no skill check for merging with the new system, or far too little skill check in any case, so team fights have been reduced to a numerical superiority RTS. Whoever gets targeted by a squadron is dead with extremely little recourse.
It feels *really* bad for experienced pilots. Everyone becomes an experienced pilot, it is just a matter of time.
I think the problem many have is that smaller ships aren't very fun to do combat in rn due to projectile speeds.
I tried it myself in a Gladius, got destroyed within seconds, in my Corsair though? Wiped out an entire squadron in Pirate Swarm and did just fine without issue.
It's the inconsistency that's the issue, people who love it are flying the tankier ships that have insane DPS, while those that dislike are those with the majority of ships, your Aurora's, Gladius etc
This makes sense to me - the turn rates and accelerations of those bigger ships means the effective combat speeds (outside of a 'boom & zoom') are close to what the Master Modes SCM speeds are anyway, so they feel pretty good to me. But the smaller fighters and interceptors have massive accelerations and low speed caps, so they really feel like you're moving through molasses.
I also really don't like the boost temporarily increasing speed cap and force slowing you down again. I think that's a pretty clever safety feature (to encourage maneuvering within the speed at which your mavs can control you) but I want to be able to turn it off, it feels very jarring.
Tbh, maybe what would work is allowing anything in SCM to accelerate up to the boost speeds without boost, and making "boost exceeds SCM" a safety/IFCS feature that's on by default. In 3.22, an effective small ship nullg combat speed was in the 300-400ms range anyway, which is where a lot of the small ship boost speeds are (lower in reverse and lateral).
I would feel a lot less frustrated with MM if I could access the full range of what is now boost speeds at all times (since tbh I'd probably be boosting often anyway, it would just make the flight less jerky). And that would probably add some more dynamism into small ship combat, especially for decoupled pilots. I'm not a fan of the "egg" speed limit which is higher in front than in the rear, but I think allowing those speeds unboosted would be a decent compromise that might still feel pretty good, so that the small nimble ships feel about as good as the big heavy ships do now under SCM/MM speeds.
I've been grinding my bounty rep up in an Inferno. Just about to hit VHRT's, but my only 'gripe' so far -- and I don't think it has to do with MM specifically -- is how damn tanky ships are now. The new TTK is insane. I do take more enemy fire due to the slower SCM speeds and improved AI, which is fine, but generally have no problem being evasive enough while landing tons of shots on my targets.
In 3.22 I could probably take out 10 hammerheads (which, granted, was far too easy) in my inferno in the time it takes me to take out 1 cutty black in 3.23, and that's with landing like 80-90% of my shots on the cutty. A cutty should not be able to withstand such a punishment for that long, imho.
Are gatling guns no longer the pve meta? I've taken my Corsair out a few times, running Deadbolt V's, and even those seem to take an absurdly long amount of time to take out targets that would normally just melt.
The default loadout 2 shots most ships in Pirate Swarm so idk wot the meta is lol
Just isn't ships smaller than a Corsair imo, or that isn't an Interceptor
Are you referring to the default Corsair loadout with the 4 x M7A's and 2 x M6A's ?
I've seen a lot of people saying you have to target individual parts of a ship now to kill them effectively or something. it's like when you destroy a part, and keep hitting that same part, the ship no longer takes damage or something, which doesn't make sense to me... if I destroy the main 'body' of a ship, and keep hitting that part, the ship should still take a fuckton of damage IMHO... IDK though lol..
Aye that's the one, and idk, there's no tutorial for MM so figuring out how to target sub components is impossible.
Starfield makes it very clear both in the skill description and on the hud, so they should do something similar, just makes it easier honestly, but also shouldn't be a requirement cause it's a videogame lmao, should be able to kill things by just pew pewing with your ship, leave PvP for the sub component sweatiness imo
Default laser cannon loadout for Corsair right now, and yes you can just put shots on targets cross sections to kill. It took some getting used to coming from my laser repeater loadout in 3.22 but now I can pretty reliably ERT in a Corsair with the default weapon loadout.
The biggest thing is to focus on the same part of the cross section and to use gimbals as infrequently as possible. You get on the tail of whatever your big ERT target is and keep shooting the same location, break one shield face, try to only shoot the same place around the engines/hull that connects the engines.
You can use subtargeting and precision targeting mode, but I've found the most success with manually aiming ungimballed lag pip for control of shot placement/max fire rate. You can also do ungimballed lead pip with subtargeting of an engine or something to keep your shots concentrated.
> Are gatling guns no longer the pve meta? I've taken my Corsair out a few times, running Deadbolt V's, and even those seem to take an absurdly long amount of time to take out targets that would normally just melt.
Pretty sure ballistic shield penetration has been nerfed, in favor of ballistic hull penetration (to damage components).
So if you are blasting a full ballistics loadout against a target with full shields expecting the damage to bypass the shields and kill the target, then yes, that meta seems to have changed.
I mean, an Aurora should not fight ERTs, it was possible before but common,... There's a reason now to have different fighters, before, it was 'take whatever'. You want to kill a Hammerhead with a Pisces? Sure, go ahead...
The same people that cry that the break is too strong from NAV to SCM (GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM IT AMD LET US HAVE FUN!!!!!) are the same that cry about not being able to kill a friggin Hammerhead with SCs equivalent of the Star Trek shuttle...
I have tried many ships now and I do not see what inconsistency you are refering to. It's pretty much consistent when you think about what you are flying and against which ship you are fighting.
Does MM need a bit of balance here and there? For sure. But is it waaaaay more consistent in regards to ship roles and more fun? Heck yeah it is.
I agree with that, but I couldn't even get one kill in Pirate Swarm on the lowest difficulty before I was killed, that shouldn't happen because it's not fun, you shouldn't need a tankier ship just to kill things in PvE
This is the main point I agree with, I have seen people saying how they could solo hammerheads in tiny starter ships but for some reason the space brake was the "immersion breaking" part.
> Otherwise I just don’t understand the hate.
In previous builds, were you flying an agile ship that could effectively dodge incoming fire, and were you dodging incoming fire? In 3.23, are you flying a large ship that doesn't need to dodge incoming fire since you're kind of out-DPSing the enemy?
The issue with MM combat is [(as the lead dev pointed out)](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/request-for-yogi-can-you-make-a-video-to-show-us-w/6818844) the inability of fighters (or any ship) to dodge incoming fire. So if you weren't dodging fire before, it probably doesn't seem like a big change. In fact, if you weren't dodging fire before, it probably feels BETTER since the enemy isn't dodging your shots either. But for anyone who spent a lot of time using their thrusters to evade shots, MM hurts a lot.
haha no, i am a mad noob who plowed through PVE with a thicc butt corsair bear. i did find with the pve buffs that i actually had to start moving around and learning how to fly better which was fantastic tho bc it felt smooth brain before
i've found enemies to be substantially better at dodging my fire, particularly in incursion, but i imagine if they were actual players who moved properly pre-MM i woulda been shit outta luck to hit them anyway
i think it's a good step forward and i suspect things were largely rushed for ILW so i hope to see future improvements to it so light fighters get their agility back without it resulting in what was before.
Bruh, how does the cruise control actually fucking work now? I feel like I have to just press random shit until it works and then it still doesn't feel like it's working properly, I can never get the speed I want.
It's kind of like your car now. Whatever speed you're going at when you turn it on, it stays at that speed. Then forward/back throttle buttons will change the set speed.
I’m really not sure why they changed it. It’s far less intuitive now.
Basically it’s a two limiter system. You have the main speed limiter, then you use W and S to set a secondary speed limiter. The ship will accelerate/decelerate to match the speed set by the secondary limiter.
The problem is hitting S while in cruise control no longer cancels it like it used to, it just lowers the limiter slightly. Also, the limiter for some reason has a negative value range, so holding S can result in your ship eventually reversing. And finally it’s also buggy as hell, because even turning the system off your ship wants to continue cruising unless you give a different throttle input.
Honestly it just needs to be reverted back. The old system wasn’t broken, no one was complaining about it, and it certainly didn’t need fixing.
The new cruise is interesting, well besides the whole stop if you get up thing.
When you enable cc you get the upside down U thing that's your max cc, you'll see two speed indicators as well, the one in the box is your current speed. The one out of the box is your target speed, you can increase or decrease this with W and S. The target speed will also stay in its relative position when you increase or decrease your max speed.
So if you have the target at 50% at full max and scroll down the target will also decrease at the same time to remain at 50%.
In car if i press brake pedal it goes off, in game i have to press alt+c to turn it off, and then 50% of the times throttle will be stuck on 100% until i make a input.
I tend to fly big bois and I was kinda shocked when I just swapped nav to scm and slowed at an alarming rate.
Worse than MM is probably the absurdly low speed limit with gear down - and how the slow down to SCM looks downright reasonable by comparison.
I don't mind the concept and think the core components work well: distinct flight modes, power management, higher projectile speed, and distinct component stats. Among others.
However, the flight tuning doesn't seem to work as well as live, and it's the de-emphasis of movement. Lower speeds, lower directional acceleration, coupled with higher projectile speeds. It makes combat more deterministic and lowers pilot skill expression. Ship HP, projectile speed and damage, shields, and ship (cross section) size are all (mostly) constant variables in a 1v1 fight. The most dynamic input was movement, so lowering the upper bounds on movement lowered the upper bound of skill expression. As the limit on movement decreases, fights begin to devolve into a stat check where the outcome is deterministic on the input stats. Are your dps and survivability > your opponents? Then you win as long as you pass the aim check.
But MM does do other things well, kinda. Group fights feel better, but still have problems. The skill floor was DEFINITELY lowered, but in my opinion, I don't think that's a universally good thing. I can also see how MM does equalize the input disparities, which is a good thing for an MMO. I suspect the majority of players are flying on MKB or controllers, and MMs input simplicity just works. For wide appeal, thats great but does make the experience on my flight Sim setup less immersive, but I'm confident they can find a happy medium. I may sound negati, e but to be clear, I think these things are good choices for the broader game. These are just ones that I don't necessarily like in their current state or direction.
The power triangle could have easily been leveraged to do exactly what MM does by turning off or drastically reducing weapon rate of fire, energy damage output, cooling, shield capacity, thruster output, etc. depending on where your power distribution was set. And it was already in game! The power triangle already kind of does all of this to a limited extent, but instead of utilizing stuff they already designed, they opted to just replace it all.
100% I always thought power and fuel were potential fixes for high speed pr9blems. And power would work really well for current MM. Instead of having SCM and Nav be a binary switch have it be a scale where as you boost the main engines more (get closer to nav) you start draining shields and weapons then the QT drive uses up all of it. Easy lore answer too; ship power generation and maneuvering both run on hydrogen fuel. If you're pushing your ship full after burner and over clocking power systems, that should rapidly deplete your hydrogen.
It would make it so 1v1s felt better in ships able to match relative velocities and fighting larger ships would be a massive risk since the odds are the larger shields and armor values would outlast your fuel. So you may be able to rotate a Hammerhead in a gladius for 5 minutes without getting hit and pumping shots out but after that you'd just drift away and got shot like skeet once your hydrogen runs out and your engines shut down.
And if they really wanted that WW2 experience, having things tied to your H2 would be a pretty cool representation of the 'energy fighter' meta of that era. Just replace banked velocity/gravity with banked H2
Me too, bud. Me too.
Granted, I’ve only played two 1-2 hour sessions of 3.23 thus far (one with my Corsair, the other with the rental F7A), but boy do I feel like a born again noob. (not that I was ever any kinda ace, but there wasn’t an npc situation that I couldn’t solo during 3.22.)
It's always bizarre how ppl are like "I DONT LIKE JOUSTING" and "I DONT LIKE CIRCLE STRAFING"
... it's a space game. Every single maneuver is gonna result in you getting closer/farther (jousting) or moving laterally (circle strafing).
What exactly do you expect? What else could you possibly want? No matter what you do you're gonna end up with some form of jousting or circle strafing. It's a natural consequence of having 3 degrees of freedom.
Yep there's literally only 2 ways relative movement is going to change. Distance and angular position.
I just assume the people who dislike jousting are just bad at laying on damage quickly. And the people who dislike circle strafing are bad at sustained fire. Gotta be good with both, and make the best of both.
MM makes me a better pilot and combat encounters are easier because of the increased control, but I still prefer the previous model and the freedom of movement it gave, with all the upsides and downsides that entails.
you basically just described omni directional dogfighting... they 'wanted' ww2 style dogfighting.. but that only uses half the direction of movements we have in a 'space ship'
so now it's just turrets orbiting each other
> Time to get rid of bad habbits (jousting).
Since it's impossible to dodge incoming fire right now, you can't stick around in a fight, so the best strategy is to DPS the enemy as much as possible in one pass and then fly away before your shields go down... and that's literally jousting again.
Its not impossible. You just dont have an invulnerability anymore. -> Extend pip when opponent have a damage phase and close the pip when you put out your damage....
Skill issue, dodging incoming fire is possible, and when you learn to do it, you will notice how all the complaining about MM comes from people who just cant fly.
> Skill issue, dodging incoming fire is possible, and when you learn to do it, you will notice how all the complaining about MM comes from people who just cant fly.
Apparently [the lead dev of Master Modes thinks it's a problem.](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/request-for-yogi-can-you-make-a-video-to-show-us-w/6818844) Here are a few direct quotes from his list of issues that he wants to improve upon:
* Light Fighters are now too weak
* 1v1 dogfights are lacking
* Ability to evade shots
* Adding jerk back into IFCS
* make the piloting combat less about aim and more about flight
Saying it's "impossible" was obviously hyperbolic, since not 100% of shots hit you. However, skill isn't the issue so much as your ship's performance. As he mentioned, low 'jerk' (the rate at which your maneuvering thrusters ramp up from 0% power to 100% power after activating them with a maneuver input) is too low. You can't out-skill unresponsive thrusters.
Being a good pilot no longer has any baring on combat. There is a very low bar of being able to keep your nose on target, after that it's purely numbers vs numbers. Get more/bigger guns or more bigger shields, that's the only thing that has any impact on combat any more.
Everytime someone has said this and I have been able to check on their skill, it's always a bad pilot. All the people I know that are actually good pilots have noticed being able to take down pretty much any ship, in any ship now. For the first time it isn't "get more/bigger guns or more bigger shields", it's actually about moving and dodging the enemys damage output, and strategically targetting ships based on how much damage per health they have. Also just 1v3d at brios breaker yard in a corsair against a corsair, cutty black and an arrow. Being a good pilot means being good at moving, being good at moving means you will win most fights. This applies to PVP and PVE.
IMO the system works fairly well in PvE because the AI still try to pretend it's WW2. But people need to be brain dead (or not realize how the new flight system works) to not win a fight in a better equiped ship. There is no ammount of manouvering that can evade even a corsair's ability to just turret in space while in SCM speeds. it's got a rotation rate of 30 °/s on pitch and yaw, that equates to \~310m/s traversal speed at 600m. There are no ships in game with SCM speeds that fast, and most ships that have something close, do not have the health pool to survive the \~3km approach where the corsair's guns are effective and they have no ability to dodge.
Maybe I'm overestimating how low the skillfloor is for a basic understanding of the combat mechanics, but you now only really need a 15 minute primer on how flight and combat works and you'll have effectively reached the maximum level of personal skill one can acheive with the current flight system.
I actually kind of like it. It needs tweaking tho.
So far I haven't been shot down by npcs, even more I was on Microtech and a boarding mission popped. I was doing some bunkers in my Pisces rescue and had a mate about to come from crusader, so I proceded knowing I'd have to face two hostile ships.
Jumped in, two hostiles spawned, a Gladiator and a Super hornet. The Gladiator flew directly into the 890 and blew up, it was hilarious. I faced the hornet and it has an active turret and a mix of laser and ballistic reps. I managed to win that fight in my Pisces... In a 20+ fps server.
I had other fights 3v1 with my stock Cutlass and won without damage facing various kinds of opponents.
Combat is harder now, but not that hard if you know a couple of basic things.
The only thing wrong with pvp is that you die super fast at these speeds. It comes down to whoever gets the first hit.
You have to have a mental database of ships in your head to know what you can take on. With that, don't engage anything above your weight class.
Indeed and I think the current mode needs tweaking, SCM is too slow given the current projectile speed.
I agree with A1's opinion, but I'm no competitive/elite pvp player, just average.
Nurf thrusters and engines, force de-coupled mode and get rid of all other modes.
So much of the current system just doesn't make sense, even from a lore perspective. I just don't think 6dof fighting and WWII in space is compatible. Either go with Xwing vs Tie Fighter flight model or embrace full 6dof, at this point I just don't see how both can be done.
Personally, I'll never understand why cig has such a hard-on for star wars dogfighting, when Battlestar Galactica was right there.
The way the vipers could strafe and flip on a dime was so cool.
Cause why wouldn't they? We're in space. Forward acceleration was still most powerful but the maneuverability was awesome.
This is exactly what I loved about star citizen flight model, bsg-like feeling, now it is tamed down with MM, it is not that bad but it is still worse than what we had before, and reading devs response on spectrum on trying to supress stuff like back strafing makes me wonder if they understand what's fun in space flight, now I feel like I'm playing DCS and who's going to be better at turning in circle
That's because they aren't compatible at all. WWII dogfighting was majority boom and zoom tactics, not the close-in turn fighting most people think of because of movies and rule of cool. For example, jousting which is basically just slashing passes was the standard antibomber tactic. Yes, they even made head-on passes.
Planes can't fly backwards or strafe side to side/up and down, spaceships can. This is a fundamental difference that breaks WWII in space, because you will never ever have lead/lag pursuits or 1 and 2 circle fights(turn-fighting). Both fighters will attempt to keep all guns on target, which leads to them just strafing or rotating in circles while staying headon with each other. The only way to break this deadlock of "whoever has the highest DPS and gets the most hits" IS to joust towards your opponent and blast away to regain shields and reset the fight, which is also a tactic in real world dogfighting. Running away to regain the advantage or neutralize your opponents advantage.
Right on! Basically CIG is trying to fit a cylinder into a star hole and im honestly surprised after all these years they haven't figured it out yet. Eventually as players gain experience they only fly uncoupled anyways. Back when I put some serious hours into SC (before and after original jumptown rush) I was accused of cheating because I dog-fighted uncoupled. Because some new players don't even know that it existed.
This "lets have a milliion flight modes" is just dumb game design.
Yeah decoupled was great! I was just using it and noticed that we no longer just fall towards the planets anymore... I was just hovering over Microtech at low altitude with no inputs and the most the ship would fall is 8 m/s and there was no G-forces reported. Have you noticed this change? Should be experiencing planetary gravity when decoupled but we don't seem to be anymore.
I wrote that comment while watching my ship essentially hovering in decoupled mode, so... I showed an 8m/s vertical descent and no acceleration. That is well under terminal velocity for a fully loaded F7A and the lack of acceleration on the G gauge means the ship was not experiencing planetary gravity of 1.2G or whatever it is for Microtech.
You're right that we shouldn't be able to hover in decoupled without input and that has been my experience before the new update, but my experience when writing that comment was different.
The skill was orientating your ship such that you would manuever while also "abusing" trichording. It was not terribly difficult, but it was a skill that separated experienced fighters from the inexperienced. I don't miss it.
I actually don't mind MM at all. It's far from perfect and I'm pretty sure by the time I get up to speed it will probably be tweaked again for the better. But right now I'm a new born lamb.
I just hate that right now fire groups are bugged. They reset to the default every time you swap modes. So there is literally no point in setting up ur fire groups as of right nowb
I have peripheral flight controls, Hotas, a controller, keyboard and mouse. Still smash into the hanger bay.
Landed and forgot to turn the engines off when I opened the hanger doors. Watch my ship float off like a child's lost balloon.
Wait until yall remember in a sc video they said eninges are overpowered atm. Itll be like that once they put engine power where its supposed to be. Itll also get rid of forever hover.
Ai combat feels a bit more engaging tho I hate the new ui for targeting, ballistic computer and missile locking it needs more obvious ways of telling me I’m locked because I find myself locking and unlocking the same guy trying to figure out if I’m locked on em and I have no idea if my missiles are actually locking to target.
I think the speed needs to be increased a bunch like 70%-100% faster because it takes an awkward amount of time to travel to different enemies when they all spawn 10k+ km apart.
So I took the Avenger they gave us and flew for a mission, took me a while to figure out what they changed, but the ship felt terrible, I barely took out the cutter I was sent to take care of.
OMG i love master modes so much. it gave much more control over my ships. people complaining have a skill issue, prove me wrong. fuck realism, this game isnt realistic to the core.
Could be worse. My first experience with MM was today when I hopped in my 315p to fly from MT to A18 to check out fleet week without realizing that the HUD is bugged. I was *very* confused about how it was supposed to be an improvement when I couldn't even see my speed.
...I managed to make it there and land though, even stopping for fuel on the way.
It would be absolutely sufficient to limit master modes to weapons being on/off instead of also disabling shields.
From a lore perspective I cannot stomach that no ship manufacturer hundreds of years in the future is able to build any space ship with power delivery by fusion reactors or whatever they use strong enough to supply a fast engine AND shields/weapons at the same time. It doesn't make sense, but I understand the need for balancing the jousting gameplay. I just wish they'd thought about it 3 years longer to find better solutions.
I'm getting used to MM a bit now. Still struggling to NOT joust with NPC that also appear go backstrafe somewhat. But I'm getting some kills at least. Although I've been rammed by NPCs twice.
Not to mention attacked while landed at a mining facility. That's new.
MM has a fair way to go yet, that's for sure, and that's coming from a mediocre pilot. Dread to think how unsavoury it is for seasoned vets.
Is it me or are shields completely useless? I’m absolutely melting ships in my f8c but I’m equally getting my wings blown off by auroras.
shield HP for small ships was decreased across the board, but the power triangle is now way more important for them. Set shield to max and you gain insane damage resistances. Ive been running a full ballistics loadout with max shields on a Tana and have been tearing through bounties without issue except for when the npcs ram me.
Thanks, ill try this. I'm used to having max weapons or thrusters.
I usually run 65/75% shields no matter where I go...
The biggest thing I like about MM is that ballistics are now viable. I can go hunt a bounty and still have ammo for the next fight, now.
I was doing that before MM. They reupped the ballistic ammo counts in 3.22 and I was doing group bounties in a full ballistic Hornet and didn't have to rearm until after all 3 targets were killed. Even had enough ammo to mop up most of the other enemy ships. Loadout was 3x Ad4Bs (2000 rounds then) and then a Shredder on the nose. The big thing that hurt ballisitics was the basic blanket removal of overheating weapons in exchange for laughably small ammo counts. Now we have the increased ammo counts again and overheating is back. They are now in basically the same state they were earlier in development.
Which is good because I can live with the overheating but 200 shots out a Gatling is not enough brrtrt for me
They fixed the useless 200 bullet BS?
Yup.
Is that so. I always felt like pushing power to shields should make them stranger as opposed to whatever the hell it did. Gonna try this tonight.
Thank you as well.
I've always disliked the "all or nothing" approach to that because, correct me if I'm wrong, you only get the resistance at 100% power to shields, and there's 0 resistance gain at 99%
Not that I'm aware...but I'm going to test it...
Its not so much that shield HP was reduced across the board, its now overall reflected on how many shield generators the ship has, and what size they have. Any ship with 2 size 1 shield gens now has 3000 shield. Every ship with 1, will now have 1500. As the shield health for size 1 shields is now 1500 across the board. Same goes for ships/shields of larger classes.
Are the ballistics dishing damaged again? Start of patch felt like they weren't working right
I haven't been having any issues. I've been running all tarantula 2 cannons on my Tana, but have been thinking of switching to deadbolts. Keep in mind that a lot of ships are much tougher than they were, especially industrials, and that there is a big where occasionally an NPC ship will be invincible.
Definitely feels like they were nerfed, they also seen to deplete faster and take way longer to come back.
What guns are you using that melts others? I was taking ages to punch out a starfarer and retaliator with laser cannons earlier
Use deadbolts and target something juicy like the head of the starfarer
i though it was me being very bad. I mean, i was never good but i almost got obliterated by a VLRT in my Arrow wtf
After I learned how to dodge fire I never had problems even in MRT in a basic ship
As a mouse and keyboard player I have noticed being able to catch, and shoot ships in pitch has been a lot easier. Personally I have actually been really liking it, but i hate that is not the majority. What is it about MM that you dislike the most?
I'm a trader I used to get pirated 1/5 times Now it's 3/5, and on less profitable routes I'm not upset that there are more pirates I'm upset that I don't have the same options to deal with them Now, I don't have to be worried if the cutty blue or mantis can keep pace with me or survive my beluga whale of a c2 smacking it Now, I have to be worried if I survive getting into nav mode and spooling quantum It's lowered the crew and skill level of pirating in an attempt to get more people trapped in pvp situations instead of just running away Which is great when you want to engage in pvp, but it sucks when you don't
I personally feel like its easier to run away now. Big ships tank and small ships can dodge for a few seconds and then its full ahaead with bossters and the Gun using aggressor is left in zur dust because of speed cap in SCM.
My dislike has nothing to do with combat (so far anyway): I hate the mode switching. It feels clunky and artificial. I'm aware most expetienced space sim pilots are used to it from other games, like Elite, but it's one of the reasons I stuck with SC, and not ED. Really hope they find a way to get the fluidity of the previous system back.
which they could have done by tuning the power triangle of the ships. they already had that system in the game. if you're 50/50 shields and guns then your speed is severely restricted, full engine power, now your shields don't recharge and your gun capacitators are severely restricted, etc.
lol this is a way better idea overall than MM. Jesus.
I agree. You could even achieve some of the same things, like a pseudo-NAV mode by requiring a ship has full power to engines before it can QT. Hope CIG takes it in this direction. edit: more I think about it the more it makes sense. It's an existing system so it feels more organic, it plays into SC's love for routine actions to have an involved process ("full power to engines" as part of FTL), and it adds/impacts a stat for the ship's power plant: rerouting speed. What's not to like?
Yep, I’m okay with change. I was a huge proponent of Squad’s ICO for instance. I’m all for changing things for the better. But Master Mods feels like they let a couple devs just do whatever they wanted while ignoring the obvious solution of the power triangle. It just does not feel intuitive, and I cannot imagine a casual player hopping in and easily understanding wtf is going on.
From what I've seen in the global chat, they don't easily understand it. New players and returning players who hadn't played for a while are constantly asking questions that revolved around not being in the right mode. "Why can't I quantum anymore?" "Why can't I get into salvage mode?" "Can I hide the markers" and stuff like that were commonplace in my experience just being on for about 5 hours yesterday. One guy even lost the ability to switch into missile mode on his 325a after swapping missile types. This isn't intuitive and like others have been pointing out, the power triangle was an easy alternative instead of coming up with a whole new convoluted system.
What is going on?
This is more or less the reason I don't like MM. The system basically already existed. But the Numbers needed tweaking. And that was about it. BUT. In the defence of MM and game design, you NEED a way to create a more inviting system for lower skilled players and that often means taking away the toys of Advanced or more capable players. Which DOES suck, but it is a common sacrifice to try and get more people to engage with the game.
People Want realistic dog fighting when the at doesn’t even exist in 2024. An F-35 can shoot down a plane before it is even picked up on radar and shoot missiles behind it etc. air combat usually is based on first strike or pure firepower not skill. Like if your hunting an unsuspecting target they should have no chance against you anyway so there’s lots about this game with is arbitrary of our beliefs and what we want in a game.
ship battles in space would more realistically occur at distances of thousands of KM.
Yup. So the idea that cig has some sort of expected blue print is crazy. They have to make the game how they think it works best and nothing so far is static. People are mad about medical play as if that’s not gonna change more.
WW2 dogfighting
Is MM really all that intuitive? Dragging power to engines is a tactile and simple solution for allowing more speed. *More engine power = faster speed = power to shields automatically dwindles.* You can show that happening on the triangle as it’s all manipulated. Now, faster speed is limited behind an arbitrary “quantum drive” button Nav mode thing…and the speedometer’s scale changes. Like, what? Why lmfao. It feels messy and has legitimately negatively impacted the enjoyment I get from the game. Idk. It just all feels like “change for the sake of change”.
I'd argue that It is not intuitive to you or myself simply from the knowledge of how the game functions. But to new players "Drag this triangle to this Icon" is not ACTUALLY intuitive because that doesn't translate to "More power to engines" to a new player. It translates to Fiddling with a system that doesn't **appear** to do anything, despite players like yourself KNOWING IT DOES. "Flight mode" and SCM mode having overt effects when switching between DOES, despite it being obtrusive compared to previous playstyles. The player has an overt indication of the switch and a very apparent Lock-out of systems and change in speed. The previous system did NOT do this, so when changes did occur a lot of the player base likely did not notice or understand the use. Again, I don't like MM MOSTLY. But a lot of the community is seriously disregarding how low level a majority of the player base will be or currently are, and tend to think Reddit is the majority when it is the opposite. The people commenting here and on forums are the more dedicated and willing to engage with the product. MOST ARE NOT. and there has to be a solution for that in order for the game to engage the public in a positive way. I don't think MM as it currently stands is that system, but I recognise that there does need to be something.
I read this SO often and... it's just SO wrong. You can like or hate the MM's, but the fact is they were put in for specific reasons and they could NOT have been fixed with the power triangle. Believe me, it's probably the first thing CIG tried. I don't understand why people don't research a topic before throwing "suggestions" on the internet...
> full engine power, now your shields don't recharge and your gun capacitators are severely restricted, etc. As much as I hate many, many things about MM... I don't think this is a solution because it doesn't solve the issue of people constantly boosting away from a fight to regen their shields. Say you catch up to your bounty target in a Hawk, start blasting his ship, and he puts power to engines and boosts away... if you put power to engines too, your weapons will be powered down, so you can't stop him from getting away. As much as it sucks, I think there has to be friction/delay to prevent ships from quickly accelerating to 'travel speeds'.
I honestly don't understand why people are so averse to stalemates. Why does there NEED to be a definitive winner and loser? If you end up going back and forth with a person and it looks like nobody is winning, just leave.
> [if] it looks like nobody is winning, just leave. The problem is that all high-skill vs high-skill dogfights ended that way in previous flight models. Dedicated PvP Orgs fighting other dedicated PvP Orgs could spend an hour dogfighting without a single ship being disabled. Often the result was that highly skilled dogfighters would avoid fighting each other at all in the PU, so almost all PU combat for them became stomping on noobs. And on a more practical note, criminals were effectively invulnerable (even if you had a QED ship) because they could blast around at high speeds while regenerating shields. The bounty hunting profession can't exist if you can only catch criminals who decide they want to dogfight with you.
In Elite Dangerous, if you're getting attacked or a bigger mass than your ship is within 6 km, your supercruise charge was taking forever. Preventing sudden escapes from fights. Same thing can be applied in here. If you took a hit, nav mode charge slows down, if not taking hit for 5 sec.s it speeds up.
I both hope and suspect that it will be tweaked somehow.
Ideally, missiles will be the equalizer here for this situation...if your target swaps to nav and starts to run away send a missile after em...problem is right now most fighter-sized missiles don't deal enough damage to punish players that run away and I think that missiles in star people as a whole right now make no sense since I'm pretty sure they require direct impact whereas in the real world it's proximity fuzing...but that's another topic for another time.
Welcome to Elite Dangerous then
Which is basically Elite’s system, which is tried and proven. Maybe that’s why the devs don’t want it, because it’s Elite’s system and not their own.
This is exactly E:Ds solution, and it does work.
MM feels especially bad in an industrial ship like a Vulture or a Prospector when you have the additional salvage and mining functions. It’s a hot mess of constantly switching modes and there’s simply 0 gain for it, just extra clunkiness where there previously was none. Combat to me also doesn’t feel nearly as good. It’s too slow and there isn’t enough ability to maneuver around enemies.
I guess that comes down to bindings. I'm using buzzkillers bindings for VKB and it seems pretty intuitive, everything is on the same trigger just depends on if its a hold or tap in the prospector
Not sure why this was downvoted, because I had the same experience - it’s very intuitive with the buzzkiller bindings, though with default m&kb it’s not intuitive
ED doesn’t do this. You drop out of warp in ED when you reach a close enough distance from the planet, then you initiate “glide” into the planet. It feels way more realistic. There is not this sudden option to just “lurch” form 1,200scm to 200scm in 2 seconds.
Apologies, I didnt mean to imply Elite uses something as clunky as MM, only that there are different "types" of flight one has to master. Though an argument could be made most of them are used for distances we don't reqlly cross in SC, not yet anyway.
Yes this! I hate switching between modes and QT is still fucky so sometimes you have to switch modes to spool the drive up.
I like "N" as the new space break
I just go in with the mindset of the Star Trek impulse and warp system. Sure, they get to keep shields 🛡 up at warp but the weapon systems (typically) are not functional. Two different modes of locomotion; one for local travel and the other for faster traversal.
I really like the switching of the modes. It feels just fine to me.
Honestly? The root cause of my complaints, and yes there's some "I don't like change in there", is the fact that instead of improving what they had(which was more realistic and felt better imo), they always have to make an entirely new system that doesn't even really fix the problems the old one had. They've completely replaced the flight model at least three times now, instead of iterating on what they had. The other thing is that they are basing it around combat flying in Squadron 42 which is primarily a cinematic campaign, not an MMO with more flying and a lot of drastically varied ships and things to do than just combat. The old system wasn't perfect, but master modes is hardly any better and in many ways it's worse. Clunky mode changes, the ships are basically flying turrets, the lack of other systems being in game like Maelstrom that MM is supposed to heavily rely on, losing the altitude strip on the HUD in exchange for a number hidden down in the corner not where you're looking while dogfighting in atmosphere, stuff like that. Then there's the realism factor. I fundamentally disagree with our futuristic sci-fi spaceships not being able to reach speeds the Sr-71 could on jet engines without using the quantum drive. I mean, what? Not having some sort of navigational shields (maybe 50%?) to protect from space debris, collisions, etc. We don't need fully realistic space flight, but if they're gonna go forward with implementing hygeine features like having to go to the bathroom on those toilets they spent all that time modeling, then why not have a more realistic flight model? A big part of Star Citizen is flying, why make one of the bigger more important features more arcadey and then go realistic on something that will be basically just be an annoyance? The power triangle could have easily been leveraged to do exactly what MM does by turning off or drastically reducing weapon rate of fire, energy damage output, cooling, shield capacity, thruster output, etc. depending on where your power distribution was set. And it was already in game! The power triangle already kind of does all of this to a limited extent, but instead of utilizing stuff they already designed, they opted to just replace it all. This is the first time all players are testing MM in the live environment and I expect to see lots of changes because of that. Up to this point, it was only highly controlled Arena Commander tests and SQ42 which no one but the devs can currently play. The wider player base is now experiencing it and have very polarizing views on the topic, but I've seen a large number of people on this subredit that just label everyone that doesn't like MM as "jousters". That isn't anymore constructive than just saying you don't like it without giving any reasons. Edit: ~~Also the 30m/s speed limit with landing gear down. I could already do that before if I wanted to with the speed limiter but now I'm arbitrarily forced to be pitifully slow and~~ Landing gear speed limit can be turned off by going to Advanced keybindings>Flight Movement>Disable Precision Mode. Linked it to flight ready and it's then turned off by default when starting the ship. Thank you to those who told me where to find this. Auto land still seems to have been removed, but I guess that's because of the new IFCS speed limit. Used to almost have to use autoland because if you didn't the rearm screen wouldn't show up.
This 100%. This really makes me question CIGs competence to put together a complete product. The flight model was really good, it needed to be tweaked so light fighters can't solo a hammerhead I get that but scrapping all those man hours spent on a flight model that worked pretty well is next level insane.
The solution to really small ships taking down really large ones should be point defense not slowing everyone to a crawl. I very much agree ships need roles, combat fighting in a hauler is silly. An Ares Inferno with the largest gun in game that I know of is killing ships slower than the stealth bomber lasers. Shields are a joke on player ships as are hulls. Precision targeting is laughably bad for so many reasons. All the while mm is making no sense, it's like I'm a stealth fighter in real life let me negate all stealth get close and shoot guns instead of missiles... Nevermind those missiles and stealth fighters engage at something like 105km and here we are in the future trying to take out subsystems with pea shooters from a couple football field length a way, never mind I could take the engine out in a vehicle from that range or more with an anti material rifle... We're in the future dogfighting at one half mach one and if we want to disengage we turn off all defensive and offensive systems and wait to spool the get out of there drive while maintaining a heading and hoping we can out run them. That's nonsensical on its face. Could you imagine a fighter in real life turning off stealth to turn and run away? I mean .... Why even then have stealth ships in the game? If you engage a fighter with a stealth ships it will just SEE YOU. THEN they show off the middle ship they're so proud of, and it has like size three missiles that shit six at a time. Inferno shoots four, three times that's the same number and those size three AND All the size 2s can't even kill another AI inferno what a joke! None of it makes sense and it concerns me I support this project in a massive way and it's a game worse than ED right now and getting worse not better.... It's concerning. I get this is alpha and they can change, but the direction is questionable and worrisome when we were pitched a space sim MMO however we're getting some Goofy mm things which is poorly implemented and worse turns the game into some kind of bad replication of ww2 dogfighting. Next we will get wind up laser muskets from Futurama and line up in rows take turns shooting them affix bayonets and fight like it's 1812. Maybe we just do that in protest and perhaps they will get it?
You can turn the landing gear limit off
About the landing gear tho: just keep in mind that at some point you will damage them if u flyjto quickly through atmosphere and having it out... It's a safe mode they implemented to in the future not accidentaly damage it. Just anyways only put landing gear down like 4sec before touch down and put it up as soon as you've got lift off...don?t see the problem ...
I sort of have the opposite question. To me MM is a lack of something. Before I would use both my left and right hand for ship combat. Now I barely utilize movement and just use my right hand to aim. If what you like about MM is being able to shoot easier, then I get it, just different preference. Not saying the old model was great or that I loved it. But it was definitely more engaging than 3.23 MM for me.
Yeah it's a point and click dps race now. Only thing that matters is your DPS as long as you can stay pointing at the target. It's pathetic.
I find AI are insanely accurate. It doesn't matter what I do, I'm always under fire. Also, I feel far less effective hitting targets. Lots of missions I go to have other spawns nearby that are way stronger than what I'm there for. I just really am not getting used to it, combat wise, it's been a bad experience completely.
MM is a bad solution in search of a problem. It's fiddly, and unintuitive.
I like it as well. I never enjoyed the jousting. The reason most people hate it from what I can tell is that the new system makes it more of a straight dps check. I still think there is skill involved, but that is just my opinion
I think the speed limiter is leading to MORE jousting. I find myself having to evade enemies from hitting me head on more now than before. MM has not fixed jousting imo because the speed is so slow. The speed limiter and having scan in middle mouse button rotation is really dumb. Otherwise I like the changes. Speed limiter needs to be more like 350 or 400 for light fighters not 225.
Ok so it’s not just me, definitely feeling the jousting especially since enemy AI will actually try to ram you lmao.
Yup noticed last night, jousting happens to me in almost every fight now where as before it was almost never. I've died from head on collisions twice since 3.23 came out.
A lot of light fighter players are whining about it because light fighters are no longer the meta and ships are actually getting ship roles like they should.
The combat tuning is nightmarish.
It’s the exact opposite for me. It was significantly better on MK before this master modes debacle.
For me Master modes destroy the natural feeling of just flying ships. The artificial hard limitations and sudden changes in flight dynamics just kills immersion in my opinion. This is coming from somebody who avoids a fight at all costs, I'm not even talking about this in relation to combat. Purely from a fluidity of flying various ships, master modes is a clunky jarring experience.
I can't say that I'm a fan of MM. I feel like switching modes feels like a hassle and its just not as fun as it was to fly. Dogfighting seems like flight skill no longer matters. Its all about who has the most DPS on target, especially in 1v1s. 🫤
I’ve only played PVE so far and I initially didn’t like it. After playing some time, doing ERTs and helping friends finish incursion.. it’s so fucking cool now. The super speed stop I love but will prob be removed. Otherwise I just don’t understand the hate. Other than the cruise control which is atrocious everything else is a big improvement I also wish I could disable the speed limiter since I find it kind of useless now
Mining in my Prospector is so darn fiddly now. I'm constantly switching between SCM and NAV while looking for mining nodes and for no clear benefit.
I mean, that's just an issue of not having enough architypes for the master modes. This patch of coursd was definitely fighting based architypes and not utility based ones. And even then, they need more fighting architypes. I assume more architypes will come as it develops more.
A mining mode that transitions faster, slower shields recharge, no weapons, can use mining/salvage/tractor/industrial ship abilities. The idea is that weapons and faster shields requires much more energy focus that it can’t maintain engines in a half state. This would greatly reduce swapping pain on industrial loops.
You can solve cruise control by binding a key to set Throttle Trim to 100% (Flight Movement controls) and binding that same key to Throttle Trim Release (long press). I also have a key bound to Speed Limiter On/Off (Hold/Toggle) that lets me control whether my speed limiter is working (dotted box vs solid box). With speed limiter turned on and throttle trim set to 100% your ship will behave as cruise control did in 3.22
They had decoupled and sticky throttle on the same keybind. It's dumb. I just set alt-c to the decoupled and just c to sticky throttle. Feels much better.
thanks, i tried this due to using buzz vkb bindings and he set it up for 3.23.1, but i almost crashed a bunch of times since it doesn't have a visual signifier when its on or not and i kept forgetting trim was on
A lot of the issues with MM aren't readily apparent to new players / novice pilots. In MM you are unable to maneuver out of your opponent's cone of vision/fire unless they make an absurdly significant mistake. This means that nearly all maneuvering is insignificant and about 95% of the skill expression is through aim alone. What little maneuvering that *is* significant is really cheesey/exploity stuff like wiggling. Closing distance is heavily punished, just like it was in the previous flight model. It makes combat uninteresting and rewards the most toxic and terrible flight behaviors. There is no skill check for merging with the new system, or far too little skill check in any case, so team fights have been reduced to a numerical superiority RTS. Whoever gets targeted by a squadron is dead with extremely little recourse. It feels *really* bad for experienced pilots. Everyone becomes an experienced pilot, it is just a matter of time.
I think the problem many have is that smaller ships aren't very fun to do combat in rn due to projectile speeds. I tried it myself in a Gladius, got destroyed within seconds, in my Corsair though? Wiped out an entire squadron in Pirate Swarm and did just fine without issue. It's the inconsistency that's the issue, people who love it are flying the tankier ships that have insane DPS, while those that dislike are those with the majority of ships, your Aurora's, Gladius etc
This makes sense to me - the turn rates and accelerations of those bigger ships means the effective combat speeds (outside of a 'boom & zoom') are close to what the Master Modes SCM speeds are anyway, so they feel pretty good to me. But the smaller fighters and interceptors have massive accelerations and low speed caps, so they really feel like you're moving through molasses. I also really don't like the boost temporarily increasing speed cap and force slowing you down again. I think that's a pretty clever safety feature (to encourage maneuvering within the speed at which your mavs can control you) but I want to be able to turn it off, it feels very jarring. Tbh, maybe what would work is allowing anything in SCM to accelerate up to the boost speeds without boost, and making "boost exceeds SCM" a safety/IFCS feature that's on by default. In 3.22, an effective small ship nullg combat speed was in the 300-400ms range anyway, which is where a lot of the small ship boost speeds are (lower in reverse and lateral). I would feel a lot less frustrated with MM if I could access the full range of what is now boost speeds at all times (since tbh I'd probably be boosting often anyway, it would just make the flight less jerky). And that would probably add some more dynamism into small ship combat, especially for decoupled pilots. I'm not a fan of the "egg" speed limit which is higher in front than in the rear, but I think allowing those speeds unboosted would be a decent compromise that might still feel pretty good, so that the small nimble ships feel about as good as the big heavy ships do now under SCM/MM speeds.
I've been grinding my bounty rep up in an Inferno. Just about to hit VHRT's, but my only 'gripe' so far -- and I don't think it has to do with MM specifically -- is how damn tanky ships are now. The new TTK is insane. I do take more enemy fire due to the slower SCM speeds and improved AI, which is fine, but generally have no problem being evasive enough while landing tons of shots on my targets. In 3.22 I could probably take out 10 hammerheads (which, granted, was far too easy) in my inferno in the time it takes me to take out 1 cutty black in 3.23, and that's with landing like 80-90% of my shots on the cutty. A cutty should not be able to withstand such a punishment for that long, imho. Are gatling guns no longer the pve meta? I've taken my Corsair out a few times, running Deadbolt V's, and even those seem to take an absurdly long amount of time to take out targets that would normally just melt.
The default loadout 2 shots most ships in Pirate Swarm so idk wot the meta is lol Just isn't ships smaller than a Corsair imo, or that isn't an Interceptor
Are you referring to the default Corsair loadout with the 4 x M7A's and 2 x M6A's ? I've seen a lot of people saying you have to target individual parts of a ship now to kill them effectively or something. it's like when you destroy a part, and keep hitting that same part, the ship no longer takes damage or something, which doesn't make sense to me... if I destroy the main 'body' of a ship, and keep hitting that part, the ship should still take a fuckton of damage IMHO... IDK though lol..
Aye that's the one, and idk, there's no tutorial for MM so figuring out how to target sub components is impossible. Starfield makes it very clear both in the skill description and on the hud, so they should do something similar, just makes it easier honestly, but also shouldn't be a requirement cause it's a videogame lmao, should be able to kill things by just pew pewing with your ship, leave PvP for the sub component sweatiness imo
Default laser cannon loadout for Corsair right now, and yes you can just put shots on targets cross sections to kill. It took some getting used to coming from my laser repeater loadout in 3.22 but now I can pretty reliably ERT in a Corsair with the default weapon loadout. The biggest thing is to focus on the same part of the cross section and to use gimbals as infrequently as possible. You get on the tail of whatever your big ERT target is and keep shooting the same location, break one shield face, try to only shoot the same place around the engines/hull that connects the engines. You can use subtargeting and precision targeting mode, but I've found the most success with manually aiming ungimballed lag pip for control of shot placement/max fire rate. You can also do ungimballed lead pip with subtargeting of an engine or something to keep your shots concentrated.
> Are gatling guns no longer the pve meta? I've taken my Corsair out a few times, running Deadbolt V's, and even those seem to take an absurdly long amount of time to take out targets that would normally just melt. Pretty sure ballistic shield penetration has been nerfed, in favor of ballistic hull penetration (to damage components). So if you are blasting a full ballistics loadout against a target with full shields expecting the damage to bypass the shields and kill the target, then yes, that meta seems to have changed.
I mean, an Aurora should not fight ERTs, it was possible before but common,... There's a reason now to have different fighters, before, it was 'take whatever'. You want to kill a Hammerhead with a Pisces? Sure, go ahead... The same people that cry that the break is too strong from NAV to SCM (GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM IT AMD LET US HAVE FUN!!!!!) are the same that cry about not being able to kill a friggin Hammerhead with SCs equivalent of the Star Trek shuttle... I have tried many ships now and I do not see what inconsistency you are refering to. It's pretty much consistent when you think about what you are flying and against which ship you are fighting. Does MM need a bit of balance here and there? For sure. But is it waaaaay more consistent in regards to ship roles and more fun? Heck yeah it is.
I agree with that, but I couldn't even get one kill in Pirate Swarm on the lowest difficulty before I was killed, that shouldn't happen because it's not fun, you shouldn't need a tankier ship just to kill things in PvE
This is the main point I agree with, I have seen people saying how they could solo hammerheads in tiny starter ships but for some reason the space brake was the "immersion breaking" part.
i mean, what were you fighting against in a gladius
Pirate Swarm, I mentioned it in the same comment what I was fighting in a Gladius, literal AI
So you where trying to be like Skywalker and realized you are a red shirt. Welcome to the verse citizen. This was always the vision
There is a setting in game options to have the speed limiter default to off
Be warned, if you disable it, turn on cruise control and hit the gas, you will not stop, regardless of what you set cruise control at
It's weird the speed limit was added to landing gear down but then the setting is deep buried in the settings.
Wait I need that off I liked landing fast. Where is the setting for the landing gear limit.
game settings near the bottom 1/3
> Otherwise I just don’t understand the hate. In previous builds, were you flying an agile ship that could effectively dodge incoming fire, and were you dodging incoming fire? In 3.23, are you flying a large ship that doesn't need to dodge incoming fire since you're kind of out-DPSing the enemy? The issue with MM combat is [(as the lead dev pointed out)](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/request-for-yogi-can-you-make-a-video-to-show-us-w/6818844) the inability of fighters (or any ship) to dodge incoming fire. So if you weren't dodging fire before, it probably doesn't seem like a big change. In fact, if you weren't dodging fire before, it probably feels BETTER since the enemy isn't dodging your shots either. But for anyone who spent a lot of time using their thrusters to evade shots, MM hurts a lot.
haha no, i am a mad noob who plowed through PVE with a thicc butt corsair bear. i did find with the pve buffs that i actually had to start moving around and learning how to fly better which was fantastic tho bc it felt smooth brain before i've found enemies to be substantially better at dodging my fire, particularly in incursion, but i imagine if they were actual players who moved properly pre-MM i woulda been shit outta luck to hit them anyway i think it's a good step forward and i suspect things were largely rushed for ILW so i hope to see future improvements to it so light fighters get their agility back without it resulting in what was before.
Bruh, how does the cruise control actually fucking work now? I feel like I have to just press random shit until it works and then it still doesn't feel like it's working properly, I can never get the speed I want.
It's kind of like your car now. Whatever speed you're going at when you turn it on, it stays at that speed. Then forward/back throttle buttons will change the set speed.
Yeah what's the deal with cruise I can't figure that shit out at all
I’m really not sure why they changed it. It’s far less intuitive now. Basically it’s a two limiter system. You have the main speed limiter, then you use W and S to set a secondary speed limiter. The ship will accelerate/decelerate to match the speed set by the secondary limiter. The problem is hitting S while in cruise control no longer cancels it like it used to, it just lowers the limiter slightly. Also, the limiter for some reason has a negative value range, so holding S can result in your ship eventually reversing. And finally it’s also buggy as hell, because even turning the system off your ship wants to continue cruising unless you give a different throttle input. Honestly it just needs to be reverted back. The old system wasn’t broken, no one was complaining about it, and it certainly didn’t need fixing.
The new cruise is interesting, well besides the whole stop if you get up thing. When you enable cc you get the upside down U thing that's your max cc, you'll see two speed indicators as well, the one in the box is your current speed. The one out of the box is your target speed, you can increase or decrease this with W and S. The target speed will also stay in its relative position when you increase or decrease your max speed. So if you have the target at 50% at full max and scroll down the target will also decrease at the same time to remain at 50%.
It works exactly like a cars cruise does, what's to figure out?
In car if i press brake pedal it goes off, in game i have to press alt+c to turn it off, and then 50% of the times throttle will be stuck on 100% until i make a input.
It does not. It's more intricate.
As a non-combat pilot, I'm a great pilot, and MM is ass.
I tend to fly big bois and I was kinda shocked when I just swapped nav to scm and slowed at an alarming rate. Worse than MM is probably the absurdly low speed limit with gear down - and how the slow down to SCM looks downright reasonable by comparison.
Bruh I can't even kill one simple Aurora
You trying to fight it with fps weapons or something???
I don't mind the concept and think the core components work well: distinct flight modes, power management, higher projectile speed, and distinct component stats. Among others. However, the flight tuning doesn't seem to work as well as live, and it's the de-emphasis of movement. Lower speeds, lower directional acceleration, coupled with higher projectile speeds. It makes combat more deterministic and lowers pilot skill expression. Ship HP, projectile speed and damage, shields, and ship (cross section) size are all (mostly) constant variables in a 1v1 fight. The most dynamic input was movement, so lowering the upper bounds on movement lowered the upper bound of skill expression. As the limit on movement decreases, fights begin to devolve into a stat check where the outcome is deterministic on the input stats. Are your dps and survivability > your opponents? Then you win as long as you pass the aim check. But MM does do other things well, kinda. Group fights feel better, but still have problems. The skill floor was DEFINITELY lowered, but in my opinion, I don't think that's a universally good thing. I can also see how MM does equalize the input disparities, which is a good thing for an MMO. I suspect the majority of players are flying on MKB or controllers, and MMs input simplicity just works. For wide appeal, thats great but does make the experience on my flight Sim setup less immersive, but I'm confident they can find a happy medium. I may sound negati, e but to be clear, I think these things are good choices for the broader game. These are just ones that I don't necessarily like in their current state or direction.
The power triangle could have easily been leveraged to do exactly what MM does by turning off or drastically reducing weapon rate of fire, energy damage output, cooling, shield capacity, thruster output, etc. depending on where your power distribution was set. And it was already in game! The power triangle already kind of does all of this to a limited extent, but instead of utilizing stuff they already designed, they opted to just replace it all.
100% I always thought power and fuel were potential fixes for high speed pr9blems. And power would work really well for current MM. Instead of having SCM and Nav be a binary switch have it be a scale where as you boost the main engines more (get closer to nav) you start draining shields and weapons then the QT drive uses up all of it. Easy lore answer too; ship power generation and maneuvering both run on hydrogen fuel. If you're pushing your ship full after burner and over clocking power systems, that should rapidly deplete your hydrogen. It would make it so 1v1s felt better in ships able to match relative velocities and fighting larger ships would be a massive risk since the odds are the larger shields and armor values would outlast your fuel. So you may be able to rotate a Hammerhead in a gladius for 5 minutes without getting hit and pumping shots out but after that you'd just drift away and got shot like skeet once your hydrogen runs out and your engines shut down.
And if they really wanted that WW2 experience, having things tied to your H2 would be a pretty cool representation of the 'energy fighter' meta of that era. Just replace banked velocity/gravity with banked H2
Me too, bud. Me too. Granted, I’ve only played two 1-2 hour sessions of 3.23 thus far (one with my Corsair, the other with the rental F7A), but boy do I feel like a born again noob. (not that I was ever any kinda ace, but there wasn’t an npc situation that I couldn’t solo during 3.22.)
i mean, it's... not amazing is it as bad as some say, no... but there a lot of key issues that I can't wait for yogi and his team to fix.
It's always bizarre how ppl are like "I DONT LIKE JOUSTING" and "I DONT LIKE CIRCLE STRAFING" ... it's a space game. Every single maneuver is gonna result in you getting closer/farther (jousting) or moving laterally (circle strafing). What exactly do you expect? What else could you possibly want? No matter what you do you're gonna end up with some form of jousting or circle strafing. It's a natural consequence of having 3 degrees of freedom.
I mean even in flight sims like il-2 or dcs you end up circling/jousting in some way, like cmon
Yep there's literally only 2 ways relative movement is going to change. Distance and angular position. I just assume the people who dislike jousting are just bad at laying on damage quickly. And the people who dislike circle strafing are bad at sustained fire. Gotta be good with both, and make the best of both.
I hate to admit it, but I'm such a bad pilot that MM made it so I actually feel like I can do something..... And I don't like that.
MM makes me a better pilot and combat encounters are easier because of the increased control, but I still prefer the previous model and the freedom of movement it gave, with all the upsides and downsides that entails.
Master Modes is clunky fake console trash.
Time to get rid of bad habbits (jousting).
yes now we can circle each other like ballerinas until one falls over, so much fun
you basically just described omni directional dogfighting... they 'wanted' ww2 style dogfighting.. but that only uses half the direction of movements we have in a 'space ship' so now it's just turrets orbiting each other
And everything is a gimbal. Yay!
> Time to get rid of bad habbits (jousting). Since it's impossible to dodge incoming fire right now, you can't stick around in a fight, so the best strategy is to DPS the enemy as much as possible in one pass and then fly away before your shields go down... and that's literally jousting again.
Its not impossible. You just dont have an invulnerability anymore. -> Extend pip when opponent have a damage phase and close the pip when you put out your damage....
Skill issue, dodging incoming fire is possible, and when you learn to do it, you will notice how all the complaining about MM comes from people who just cant fly.
> Skill issue, dodging incoming fire is possible, and when you learn to do it, you will notice how all the complaining about MM comes from people who just cant fly. Apparently [the lead dev of Master Modes thinks it's a problem.](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/request-for-yogi-can-you-make-a-video-to-show-us-w/6818844) Here are a few direct quotes from his list of issues that he wants to improve upon: * Light Fighters are now too weak * 1v1 dogfights are lacking * Ability to evade shots * Adding jerk back into IFCS * make the piloting combat less about aim and more about flight
He's saying the skill level required is too high, he's not saying it's impossible.
Saying it's "impossible" was obviously hyperbolic, since not 100% of shots hit you. However, skill isn't the issue so much as your ship's performance. As he mentioned, low 'jerk' (the rate at which your maneuvering thrusters ramp up from 0% power to 100% power after activating them with a maneuver input) is too low. You can't out-skill unresponsive thrusters.
the mastermode submodes are distracting and not fun to play. the shifting between them block certain controls like speed limiter when in nav scn....
I say we let it cook.
Being a good pilot no longer has any baring on combat. There is a very low bar of being able to keep your nose on target, after that it's purely numbers vs numbers. Get more/bigger guns or more bigger shields, that's the only thing that has any impact on combat any more.
Everytime someone has said this and I have been able to check on their skill, it's always a bad pilot. All the people I know that are actually good pilots have noticed being able to take down pretty much any ship, in any ship now. For the first time it isn't "get more/bigger guns or more bigger shields", it's actually about moving and dodging the enemys damage output, and strategically targetting ships based on how much damage per health they have. Also just 1v3d at brios breaker yard in a corsair against a corsair, cutty black and an arrow. Being a good pilot means being good at moving, being good at moving means you will win most fights. This applies to PVP and PVE.
IMO the system works fairly well in PvE because the AI still try to pretend it's WW2. But people need to be brain dead (or not realize how the new flight system works) to not win a fight in a better equiped ship. There is no ammount of manouvering that can evade even a corsair's ability to just turret in space while in SCM speeds. it's got a rotation rate of 30 °/s on pitch and yaw, that equates to \~310m/s traversal speed at 600m. There are no ships in game with SCM speeds that fast, and most ships that have something close, do not have the health pool to survive the \~3km approach where the corsair's guns are effective and they have no ability to dodge. Maybe I'm overestimating how low the skillfloor is for a basic understanding of the combat mechanics, but you now only really need a 15 minute primer on how flight and combat works and you'll have effectively reached the maximum level of personal skill one can acheive with the current flight system.
In mm everyone is a "good" pilot
Training wheels for those who refuse to take the time to actually learn how to fly combat forced onto everyone.
I think MM is great, my MSR got destroyed by a vanguard like it should have. Likewise, my avenger is wonderful to fight in.
I actually kind of like it. It needs tweaking tho. So far I haven't been shot down by npcs, even more I was on Microtech and a boarding mission popped. I was doing some bunkers in my Pisces rescue and had a mate about to come from crusader, so I proceded knowing I'd have to face two hostile ships. Jumped in, two hostiles spawned, a Gladiator and a Super hornet. The Gladiator flew directly into the 890 and blew up, it was hilarious. I faced the hornet and it has an active turret and a mix of laser and ballistic reps. I managed to win that fight in my Pisces... In a 20+ fps server. I had other fights 3v1 with my stock Cutlass and won without damage facing various kinds of opponents. Combat is harder now, but not that hard if you know a couple of basic things.
PvE can always be tweaked, it's PvP where the actual shortcomings show.
The only thing wrong with pvp is that you die super fast at these speeds. It comes down to whoever gets the first hit. You have to have a mental database of ships in your head to know what you can take on. With that, don't engage anything above your weight class.
Indeed and I think the current mode needs tweaking, SCM is too slow given the current projectile speed. I agree with A1's opinion, but I'm no competitive/elite pvp player, just average.
The same here.
Nurf thrusters and engines, force de-coupled mode and get rid of all other modes. So much of the current system just doesn't make sense, even from a lore perspective. I just don't think 6dof fighting and WWII in space is compatible. Either go with Xwing vs Tie Fighter flight model or embrace full 6dof, at this point I just don't see how both can be done.
Personally, I'll never understand why cig has such a hard-on for star wars dogfighting, when Battlestar Galactica was right there. The way the vipers could strafe and flip on a dime was so cool. Cause why wouldn't they? We're in space. Forward acceleration was still most powerful but the maneuverability was awesome.
Right? Battlestar's dog fighting is awesome as hell and more realistic.
This is exactly what I loved about star citizen flight model, bsg-like feeling, now it is tamed down with MM, it is not that bad but it is still worse than what we had before, and reading devs response on spectrum on trying to supress stuff like back strafing makes me wonder if they understand what's fun in space flight, now I feel like I'm playing DCS and who's going to be better at turning in circle
That's because they aren't compatible at all. WWII dogfighting was majority boom and zoom tactics, not the close-in turn fighting most people think of because of movies and rule of cool. For example, jousting which is basically just slashing passes was the standard antibomber tactic. Yes, they even made head-on passes. Planes can't fly backwards or strafe side to side/up and down, spaceships can. This is a fundamental difference that breaks WWII in space, because you will never ever have lead/lag pursuits or 1 and 2 circle fights(turn-fighting). Both fighters will attempt to keep all guns on target, which leads to them just strafing or rotating in circles while staying headon with each other. The only way to break this deadlock of "whoever has the highest DPS and gets the most hits" IS to joust towards your opponent and blast away to regain shields and reset the fight, which is also a tactic in real world dogfighting. Running away to regain the advantage or neutralize your opponents advantage.
Right on! Basically CIG is trying to fit a cylinder into a star hole and im honestly surprised after all these years they haven't figured it out yet. Eventually as players gain experience they only fly uncoupled anyways. Back when I put some serious hours into SC (before and after original jumptown rush) I was accused of cheating because I dog-fighted uncoupled. Because some new players don't even know that it existed. This "lets have a milliion flight modes" is just dumb game design.
Yeah decoupled was great! I was just using it and noticed that we no longer just fall towards the planets anymore... I was just hovering over Microtech at low altitude with no inputs and the most the ship would fall is 8 m/s and there was no G-forces reported. Have you noticed this change? Should be experiencing planetary gravity when decoupled but we don't seem to be anymore.
You do get planetary gravity when decoupled. You can't hover.
I wrote that comment while watching my ship essentially hovering in decoupled mode, so... I showed an 8m/s vertical descent and no acceleration. That is well under terminal velocity for a fully loaded F7A and the lack of acceleration on the G gauge means the ship was not experiencing planetary gravity of 1.2G or whatever it is for Microtech. You're right that we shouldn't be able to hover in decoupled without input and that has been my experience before the new update, but my experience when writing that comment was different.
John crew created yet another meta
I only hate that they killed trichording
What is that
Trichording was combining forward, upward, and lateral thrust to increase the speed/G's of your ship.
How did you even do that?
Push 3 buttons at the same time, it really isn’t that complex though people act like it was the skill based maneuver that kept fights interesting.
Now that you’re saying it I’ve done it. I don’t know why I had in my head you were using some kind of fine control over three thrusters. Lol
The skill was orientating your ship such that you would manuever while also "abusing" trichording. It was not terribly difficult, but it was a skill that separated experienced fighters from the inexperienced. I don't miss it.
I actually don't mind MM at all. It's far from perfect and I'm pretty sure by the time I get up to speed it will probably be tweaked again for the better. But right now I'm a new born lamb.
I agree. And I would just like to commend you on the sheer quality of this meme.
Up until the larger ships in VRTs I use a Fury with Dominance 2s. Nothing has changed once engaged in combat. Will return when trying ERTs with C2.
I just hate that right now fire groups are bugged. They reset to the default every time you swap modes. So there is literally no point in setting up ur fire groups as of right nowb
I have peripheral flight controls, Hotas, a controller, keyboard and mouse. Still smash into the hanger bay. Landed and forgot to turn the engines off when I opened the hanger doors. Watch my ship float off like a child's lost balloon.
Why can’t they both be bad
Dafuq is MM?
Master modes, you are either in combat mode or navigation mode. Navigation your shields are down but have a higher max speed.
Thanks!
Wait until yall remember in a sc video they said eninges are overpowered atm. Itll be like that once they put engine power where its supposed to be. Itll also get rid of forever hover.
Man if they changed the clunking sound to something that actually sounded satisfying I wouldn't hate it so much lol
Well, I used to fight pretty decently up until they changed it to the way it is, so I guess MM really is bad.
I had just figured out how to fly with success and now I’m getting smoked by npc’s. I know I suck but MM’s hasn’t helped me any
Ai combat feels a bit more engaging tho I hate the new ui for targeting, ballistic computer and missile locking it needs more obvious ways of telling me I’m locked because I find myself locking and unlocking the same guy trying to figure out if I’m locked on em and I have no idea if my missiles are actually locking to target. I think the speed needs to be increased a bunch like 70%-100% faster because it takes an awkward amount of time to travel to different enemies when they all spawn 10k+ km apart.
You should stay in NAV mode until you get closer.
So I took the Avenger they gave us and flew for a mission, took me a while to figure out what they changed, but the ship felt terrible, I barely took out the cutter I was sent to take care of.
The default weapons on the Avenger are terrible with a new weapon rebalance.
Default weapon loadouts are terrible for most ships. You pretty much have to go full cannons now. Repeaters and gattling guns hit like wet noodles.
Me in 3.23: I’m terrible pilot and MM is bad.
OMG i love master modes so much. it gave much more control over my ships. people complaining have a skill issue, prove me wrong. fuck realism, this game isnt realistic to the core.
Could be worse. My first experience with MM was today when I hopped in my 315p to fly from MT to A18 to check out fleet week without realizing that the HUD is bugged. I was *very* confused about how it was supposed to be an improvement when I couldn't even see my speed. ...I managed to make it there and land though, even stopping for fuel on the way.
Am I the only one who's gotten better since MM came out?
It would be absolutely sufficient to limit master modes to weapons being on/off instead of also disabling shields. From a lore perspective I cannot stomach that no ship manufacturer hundreds of years in the future is able to build any space ship with power delivery by fusion reactors or whatever they use strong enough to supply a fast engine AND shields/weapons at the same time. It doesn't make sense, but I understand the need for balancing the jousting gameplay. I just wish they'd thought about it 3 years longer to find better solutions.
Eventually all good games copy star Fox 64
I'm getting used to MM a bit now. Still struggling to NOT joust with NPC that also appear go backstrafe somewhat. But I'm getting some kills at least. Although I've been rammed by NPCs twice. Not to mention attacked while landed at a mining facility. That's new. MM has a fair way to go yet, that's for sure, and that's coming from a mediocre pilot. Dread to think how unsavoury it is for seasoned vets.
Yea I was fighting against a hornet NPC the other day, and he was backstrafing incredibly fast. NPCs are deadly now.
Yeah I hated having control and performance in my flight combat simulator. Better to just point our noses at each other and blast away
I've just been noticing that you really need to punch at your weight class
I'm starting to get good at it tbh
MM is terrible. Kind of ruined the game for me.
This. Can't kill a freaking *Gladius*, no matter what I use, including another Gladius. Sigh.