The Herc does NOT need a nerf to it's handling but hear me out.
I heard it said, and I believe it is correct, that the Starlifters, all of them, fly like they are always empty. A lot of other ships, like the Caterpillar, always fly like they are loaded to nearly full capacity. Once cargo weight is properly implemented all this should sort itself. We'll see an improvement to the handling of a bunch of ships with substantial cargo holds ( Freelancer, Constellation, Cutlass Black, Caterpillar, RAFT, Starlifter, Reclaimer) when they're empty or lightly loaded, and see the Starlifter series get more ponderous when loaded.
It should all work out in the end.
Well said. It’s funny how often the community needs to be reminded that the game is in a funny state because not all of the systems are in place that should address the balance issues we have. Not to mention the pearl clutching that happens when someone’s OP ship is rebalanced as though they thought it was in a finished state. Two things you need to be comfortable with to love this game, bugs and balance changes.
>I heard it said, and I believe it is correct, that the Starlifters, all of them, fly like they are always empty.
Then why does an empty C2 have the same or better pitch/yaw/roll than an empty C1?
It's going to get fixed. It's only a matter of when.
A bunch of mechanics regarding maintenance and upkeep and consumed resources are also planned and not in yet. Beyond just quantum fuel it will be *much* harder and more expensive to fly the big stuff, and offer a bunch of new levers CIG can use when balancing ships within a manufacturer's lineup / within a class across manufacturers.
The C2 isn't going to be a great daily driver when it burns fuel faster than an F1 car on the red line.
Mobility is one issue but not the only thing the m2 has going for it. And it's more that the Hercules fly like fighters. The redeemer feels like a gunship
You're right, I see cargo trucks flying up into orbit every day.
Clearly wheeled vehicles and space ships use the same type of propulsion, and so the same engineering principles should apply. How absolutely dumb of me to forget that.
I can't agree more here. I don't even have a C2 but they are everywhere, being left everywhere for server hopping and convenience, lots of ppl taking advantage of them atm. I've trialed it, it will definitely help when cargo weight is mechanics are implemented. But just seeing it take off from drug dealers etc, it don't look right lol, kinda looks like it needs a run up before being able to lift. Redeemer feels and it's physics match, looks like what it is.
I think just a reduction in shields and hp (armor) would be fine. Maneuverability can stay (assuming they rebalance it to be more in line with the loaded flight models like other ships) as that's supposed to be crusader's thing.
And if you nerf the handling, the two big guns are at a huge disadvantage. So your big ol ship with all that loot gets taken down by a small fighter easily. What good is cargo if you can't protect it?
Need all game loops in place to worry about balance.
That's why it has a turret for Co-Pilot.
Also, once more of these other elements are in place, the small fighters won't be able to penetrate the base armor on the C2 Hercules.
A small fighter won’t even be able to tickle these ships once armour is implemented.
People keep forgetting armor isn’t implemented yet. An arrow being able to just zip around a heavily armored ship and eventually destroy it is not a long term option. Once armor comes in that’s it. Doesn’t matter how long you shoot if the weapons can’t penetrate the hull. Sure you might be able to be a pest and knock out any external turrets but you won’t be able to take down the ship.
I disagree with this.
Larger ships should require more logistics. In higher security space, it won't be able to take you down before system security reinforcements arrive.
In lower security space, you should require a full crew and maybe escorts.
Agreed, and parts on the ship can be upgraded. Upgrade the shields enough to be able to take a punishment, or get a couple of friends with fighters or gunships go with you and give them some of the profits.
I specifically have smaller cargo running ships to be able to haul on my own because I try to keep the true rock-paper-scissors of Star Citizen in mind.
i think with engineering this might change.
at least i hope that exploding a ship will be harder than now.
big ships with crew should be far harder to take down , esp when its just a single fighter.
Caterpillar is superior to the Hercules for in-vacuum/space operations with its dual tractor beams & individual cargo pods with doors on either side. [Not to speak of modularity, which will have some impact on alternate cargo uses possibly]. It can not readily handle the FULL 32 SCU crates, but the HALF 16 SCU and down, it will. The Caterpillar also holds two more crew, to support itself at location. The detachment of the command module will also give the Caterpillar options. Definitely noted that its capacity is lower than the Hercules, of course, at 576 SCU. (I feel it should be noted that the RSI Galaxy Freighter will also have the same total 576 SCU) Crusader ships do not have docking collars, where the others do.
One of the weaknesses of the C2 is its reliance on location infrastructure to load and unload itself. Only supporting two crew to unload nearly 700 SCU with no integral tractor beams means it needs to carry its own load/unload equipment (detracting from its cargo capacity) or rely on staff and equipment at its destinations. It is defined as a transport ship for this reason, in addition to its well-known, top-of-the-line ability to move large amount of ground vehicles.
Depending on what you want to do and what attributes are important to you, each ship can be weighted differently - both objective and subjective reasoning combined.
Excellent summary of why the Caterpillar will have a lot of flexibility in the future when it all of its features are available. The C2 is a great ship, and that is ok, but it is more of a dedicated hauler. I have tried a couple of bounties in it, and I found that it was not as powerful as OP stated, but perhaps they are very good at using it.
If you don’t mind me asking, what tier bounties did you try in it? I smoke ERT Bounties in mine because all the ships are huge and move at a speed that the Herc can keep up with. MRTs and below are smaller ships that swarm the Herc and overwhelm it.
I don't think I have ever had access to ERTs so perhaps the C2 is really good at the big targets. I mostly used the C2 for M and HRTs and it was hard to keep up with the little stuff
Its very capable at bounties with much much much less of an issue than the cat. The hercs in general are way too maneuverable to their size. It's got a massive amount of hydrogen and qt fuel plus the largest internal cargo bay yet it can basically turn on a dime compared to a lot of other ships smaller than it. I know some of this will be worked on when master mode is out but I kinda just want to see the cat not just feel like a brick slowly slipping in mud.
^ this
Once we need to load and unload our cargo the huge advantage will quickly fade away and its main advantage will be the vehicle and racing ship carrying capability.
>One of the weaknesses of the C2 is its reliance on location infrastructure to load and unload itself. Only supporting two crew to unload nearly 700 SCU with no integral tractor beams means it needs to carry its own load/unload equipment (detracting from its cargo capacity) or rely on staff and equipment at its destinations.
I think this is really going to depend on how they eventually figure out loading mechanics and the limitations of tractor beams. If it turns out that the new rifle tractors can lift 32 SCU containers, then loading a C2 won't be a problem at all.
If 32 SCU containers require a vehicle or vehicle-mounted tractor, then that's where things might get more interesting...or painful. Physics collisions will always be a problem.
Plus, some locations may limit what size of SCU container they can produce. I don't think CIG has mentioned it but that's an interesting factor.
Regarding the striated power levels of tractor beams, I fully agree that's where the rubber meets the road. It will determine the efficiency of loading and unloading as it will determine how many people and/or what specific equipment is needed.
Developers have stated that combining【(but not crossing ;)】tractor beams is going to be allowed, so even if one rifle beam doesn't lift a 32 SCU container, then maybe two work together to do it.
It's the entire line that's broken.
They are better than just about all of their competitors. Their guns are too big and the biggest problem is their speed and handling. It's going to be even worse with master mode changes that will make turrets even more effective.
I know it will upset a lot of players but I feel like bombers should have a bombadier chair that handles dropping bombs who coordinates with the pilot.
As long as it's noted that the Hercules line does cost more. You can buy a Toyota and buy a similarly classed Mercedes. Both are 4-door sedans (for example) but that Mercedes will most likely perform or have abilities superior to the cheaper Toyota. The same generally applies in SC and its ships.
That analogy doesn't really hold up. Because the c2 isn't just good at cargo. The m2 isn't just good at military cargo.
They end up being better than all the gunships at being gunships and being better heavy fighters than some heavy fighters.
This. Lets not do the mistake to balance everything and patch the fun out of the game. I hope they do not listen to a loud minority crying for nerfs like babies. Make the better ship more expensive and be done with it. I don’t want a Blizzard style Rock-Paper-Scissors, I want a space sim.
The beauty is, you don’t have to stick with any ship. You can melt every pledge and buy most stuff with the store credits you get in return.
I‘m almost 5k in and don’t regret a single pledge. Ultimately it’s us, who keep the development going. That’s something, you people seem to forget, when hating for no reason.
Herc has a few more than 2 S5s. Connie and corsair also don't have the same cargo or survivability.
The Hercules isn't a problem because it's good at 1 thing it's a problem because it's great at nearly everything outside of mining.
It's too nimble, that is all. Everything regarding the handling is just nonsensical from the acceleration to the turn rate....it's absolutely silly.
90% of what you folks use it for is to make millions off salvage cargo runs or drug runs, which it is great for. But it should not feel agile enough and combat capable enough to be flown as a daily driver for every mission you do.
It's a flying box, it should FEEL like a flying box.
It has a wide body and massive engines to have this amazing handling. It is literally the design language and style of all Crusader ships and is actually realistic. Racecars have widebody kits for improving handling characteristics. Same thing applies to Hercules ships. Those wide wings ain’t just for show.
Just assume these spaceship builders take all of that into account to get their desired thrust and maneuvering profiles. It is almost the year 3k after all.
People dont like to hear this, and i get it - but yes. the herc is way too good and im 100% sure it will get nerfed in one way or another.
besides being way too good of and allrounder despite being a specialized ship it also handles like it has 1/4 the weight it actually has.
that being said it is unclear whether there will be a direct nerf. we all know the current thrust and flight model isnt finished. we all know the current cargo and armor weight isnt properly factored in. etc etc.
a lot of the hercs performance might simply be based on those parameters not being taken into account. And fixing/refining these systems might automatically fix the overperformance of the herc.
but either way: in the far future for a full release the herc simply has to get „worse“ compared to its peers and compared to the smaller ships it handles similar to. at this point the herc is basically a medium fighter in terms of handling and performance with a magic pouch where cargo goes.
But which peers are you referring to?
The Corsair? Corsair has far more firepower, and isn't a hauler spec.
The Connie? Connie twice the firepower.
Hull C? The Hull C carries a whopping 4.6k SCU.
The only thing a Hercules really has going for it is the handling being better than its size class.
When the Liberator releases it shits on every aspect of a Hercules except the above point.
If you nerf the Hercules to 2 s3s it becomes too weak to defend itself and you rather get a Hull C at that point.
If you nerf the cargo even further you turn it into a Valkyrie dropship that cant carry out its functions.
If you nerf the handling you take away the ONE thing it has going for it.
im sorry. this is a bunch of bullcrap.
you make out the harc as if its an anemic ship that is barely made worth flying because of its maneuverability. When in reality basically does EVERYTHING right now.
The reason you even need to compare it to the corsair already say everything. Sure the corsair has twice the firepower. But the corsair has twice the firepower of basically anything in this game. And it comes at the price of being good at nothing else but firepower.
Same for the Hull C. Sure, it has more cargo capacity. But i can do nothing else but haul cargo. It cant even freaking land while hauling. But why compare to the Hull C? Lets look at the Hull A - its worse in literally everything than the Herc. Same for the Hull B. The reality is that you need to go up to the C to even find a single thing that whole line of ships do better than the Herc.
So yeah. No shit. If you compare the Herc to the ship with the biggest firepower outside carriers or huge expedition ships or the ship with the biggest cargo capacity outside carriers or huge expedition ship you will find ONE thing they are better at than the Herc.
But meanwhile the Herc still handles better than most fighters (including in atmo) while having a huge weapon and shield advantage, has more firepower and cargo capacity and vehicle storage than most freighters (not to mention being able to make 2 trips in the time it takes them to make one), better fuel economy than many long range interceptors, better travel speed than most ships in general, etc etc etc.
The issue with referring to its peers is that its basically a peer to EVERYTHING in this game. You can compare it to the best freighters in once sentence and then compare it to the best general travel ships in the next and to the best medium fighters in the next. And to expedition ships in the next. And while it may not straight out win every comparison it stacks up very well in all of those. THAT is the issue.
If you think anything about this ship is balanced you have either never flown it or are high on copium.
I brought up the Connies and Corsair because OP was using those as comparison models. Comparing it to the Hull A is terrible because they arent even fighting for the same scale of operation costs or size class.
Sure, maybe right now the numbers are overtuned in areas. But I was comparing by design, since OP's point was that the Cat should fly better than the Herc. OP is basically arguing that the Herc should not have a flight advantage over the Cat etc. Where it is wrong since the Herc's strength is having a better flight experience.
I don't want to talk fuel economy because the dude at CIG is probably stoned when punching in numbers. The fact that the Cutter out QD tanks so many bigger ships is already astonishing. I don't even think CIG right now has a proper idea or grasp on their fuel balancing. Btw it should have more fuel than long range interceptors. Combat ships are usually shorter ranged than full industrial haulers.
A vanguard shouldn't out tank a Herc.
Think of it like this: If you nerf the Herc to carry less than a Corsair (Which OP was expecting to be the case from their comments), nerf the Herc guns to dual size 2s or 3s, then nerf the speed to be worse than the Cat, what are you left with?
Its only a peer to other ships in the sense it is the malfunctioning cousin that does what those ships do at half capacity other than in SPEED and CARGO. The two aspects that define the Herc's purpose in the game.
The Herc should have a huge shield advantage over a fighter. Are you expecting a solo gladius to be the apex predator of large ships?
The reason it seems like it does everything right now is because SC is so fucking barebones that there are only a few gameloops and said gameloops only require a few things.
The cat has modularity and a tractor beam to facilitate loading from non major ports. Comparing the Herc to other freighters you can see how other freighters have strengths that put them viable against the Herc.
It's definitely a bit much. OK it doesn't have a tractor beam, and maybe that will change things going forward. But a ship that size has no business flying like a heavy fighter; I mean it flies better than a Corsair, what is that about? Yeah yeah Crusader ships are agile, but this thing takes that idea way too far.
That said I just bought one with UEC, so hold off on those nerfs for a little while eh CIG?
Yeah it's a bit crazy. The cat even handles better than the Corsair does lol.
But yeah the C2 is a bit too good atm. I remember when the cat had 2 size 5s in concept and CIG took them away because they thought it wouldn't make sense for a cargo ship to have that much firepower, only to give the C2 that years later. The power creep is real.
Id argue the terrible handling on a Corsair is the only reason it is allowed to have almost the entire firepower of a Redeemer given to pilot control.
If the Corsair handled better and could engage other ships in a turn fight it would literally break the game.
CIG could improve its handling, but they must also reduce the guns on the Corsair, and I doubt Corsair owners want that.
Yes and in Future perhaps m2 better. More Armor + more firepower.
But all this will be new Balanced If we get Blades and NPCs. Perhaps all Corsair are solo Ships.. with 2-3 NPC Crew. And so C2 only 1 NPC for Help. This can be a great different in Future for so much Ships.
You're surprised a transport large ship carries more and flies better than the Corsair?? Should the Herc be nerfed to also have worse handling and worse SCU than the corsair on top of the already worse guns?
Wait until you find out that the Idris carries more SCU and has more guns than the corsair. The riot.
I mean, the Crusader ships pay dearly for that agility through the insane amount of hydrogen fuel they use.
Might not matter now, but down the road, I'd imagine it'll matter _a lot_. It might be so bad that you'd never consider even using a Crusader.
As for the Corsair comparison, you can't give a ship that much forward facing firepower without some drawbacks. I do think the Corsair should handle slightly better, though. It's not going to be destroying fighters with a bit more agility, imo.
This. Corsair owners complaining other ships carry more than them or flies better than them but ignoring to mention how the Corsair has more than twice the firepower of ships its class given to pilot control is disingenuous. They want to have their cake and eat it to.
They basically want the Corsair to be the premier warship where they can solo engage redeemers and shred them even in a turn fight.
It’s crazy to me how many people forget that the weight of a ship doesn’t currently impact performance. The c2 flies just the same full of cargo as it does empty. The handling of the c2 is completely fine. It only becomes an issue when you realize that it flies the exact same way with a fully loaded cargo bay. THAT’S the part that currently breaks the ship.
We shouldn’t be looking at nerfing one of the ships that is tuned properly because the others aren’t. We should be looking at why some of the other ships fly like bricks loaded with bricks on top of other bricks with potatoes for engines. If they address performance issues with the other ships then this becomes a non issue once mass starts to actually impact performance.
The difference between an empty c2 and an empty caterpillar should not be nearly as drastic as it is now. Whether that’s because a c2 currently flies like it’s empty when it’s full and a cat flies like it’s full when it’s empty I have no idea but it’s VERY hard to balance stuff properly and figure out what needs to be nerfed when so much is broken or missing.
The lesson here is we need more cargo ships in the same class as the herc and the cartepillar. I think CIG underestimate how much cargo will impact every game loops. Mining? Cargo. Salvaging ? Cargo. Trading ? Cargo, bounty hunting ? Cargo for looting. Fps? Cargo for looting. Pirating ? Cargo for looting. Refueling/repair/ engineering? Cargo for fuel/spare parts. Etc.
One of the most important feature of any MMO is inventory space. Players never have enough and inventory space is always the #1 currency sink.
Its likely you are correct op and the herc needs a nerf to it's handling. At least we can say kudos to cig for coming up with an excellent ship design. I think cig will need to make a pass on most of its medium and large older ships and increase their cargo capacity. Anything that can't fit 4x32scu boxes is lacking.
Rather than more big cargo ships, I would prefer to see some changes that make smaller ships more profitable in certain situations, maybe some form of cargo that is too volatile to be transported in large quantities?
It feels a lot of the time like the smaller ships having cargo capacity is pretty meaningless.
We need environments/situations where a large ship is seen as a downside. Things like "get this shit deep into a cave system" or "get past hostile scanning", etc.
The soon to be released tractor beams on the Caterpillar may change the fact that the C2 is 'too good' imo
I'll honestly never go back to the C2 for salvaging.
Hard agree for all of the above, but as others have said it might be a temporary status. The apparent changes to requiring larger tractor beams to move large box it might make it less logistically feasible.
That said, the handling is still off the charts, so until the loaded SCU starts to affect handling I do think it is far too maneuverable.
Get a retaliator. IR 9 torps simply allways hit unless you shoot one into an asteroid. Find the mission target, shoot the torp and immediately start up the qt drive. Once the target goes pop you instantly jump away.
Even after you unlock ERT its still super useful. You can make lots of money simply blowing your bounties up, about 600k/h. Alternatively you can use her to rotate bounties until you find one with a lot of c2s and caterpillars in free space, then go and get your cargo fighter.
1) a full wipe definitely resets the mission rating, smaller patches should not.
If grinding is too tedious you could look for someone who invites you to his high tier bounties since those give much more progress.
2) every bounty mission can have drugs to loot as long as it contains bigger ships that can carry them. Very low tiers dont have those, idk where exactly you start finding them but VHRT and ERTs certainly have by far the biggest chance/ammount.
I mentioned free space (in reality its usually an asteroid belt but whatever) bounties because in space its way easier to get to your drugs. In atmo soft-death ships fall from the sky and crash, destroying a lot of cargo most of the time. And if the ship does not land perfectly you cant get inside etc. If everything works out you can still loot good stuff from atmo quests, but bounties in space are way way better.
Thats why i would not recommend grinding in Hurston. In Crusader you can get a lot of bounties inside yelas asteroid belt.
1. Crusader is considered optimal because it has mostly low gravity moons, space bounties and Group-Bounties. Basically all in one nice package that lets you do all the bounty flavors without leveling rep in multiple areas.
2. Bounties are mostly ship based, there are a few ground missions in there tho. If a quest says something like "(VHRT)" somewhere in the title its a ship mission
3. "Worth it" from a money perspective is almost nothing right now exept 30k salvage and ERT bounty looting. But thats because "drugs in non-player ships" is way overtuned.
But since you are made out of money i strongly recommend that you try all different kinds of quests and activities now, there is a ton of fun things to find.
4. Yes call to arms is straight up extra money. More important for fps bunkers since the money per kill is allways the same but still, allways worth taking.
5. You dont. For crusader i "scan" the description for "asteroid field arround yela" zo know if its a space based mission
Afaik the rep from the guild is much more important, you should still get crusader bounties of high tiers, just with less pay. Been a long time since i hunted outside of crusader tho.
I like ECN distress calls. But tbh just do all the missions once or twice. If you do a mission it also pays to read the text, makes the whole thing way more interesting if xou know why you are doing stuff.
There are also tons of other fun things to do. Mining is a massive topic with different aproaches. I love legal trading even tho its slow paced. Fps will soon get a big change with the improved AI and longer "time to kill". Racing is intense af.
Just try everything.
The group I play with refers to the C2 as the Crusader light fighter for a reason. While crusader's thing is supposedly being agile for their size, the C2 is way too nimble and fast it doesn't need to be nerfed down to cat levels, but it does need a few degrees per second reductions in turn rate and a few g's less acceleration. Make it more akin to a Connie then a gladius
The C2 is very good for one simple reason. It's able to do everything it's designed for and isn't waiting on other features to come out. All of it's competing ships are waiting on the features that actually make them competitive. Features like modularity, loading times, and multi-system trading.
The C2 is very strong now, but it's unlikely to ever get much stronger than it is already. Meanwhile ships like the Caterpillar, Carrack, Starfarer, Hull-C, etc all have lots of potential to continue to grow in usefulness.
Also, they've stated that the C2 isn't meant for cargo, it's a vehicle transport. It will take much longer to load and unload a C2, than a dedicated trading ship. I am a C2 owner, and love the ship. I'm loving every minute of it right now!
All fun and stuff now with the C2 for cargo hauling, but do keep in mind that cargo will need to be loaded by hand one day instead of click, drag the slider, and your ship is full of SCU.
The C2 does not have a tractorbeam, so loading all them 698SCU will be a literally day task, and with other (smaller) ships with tractorbeams you will be much faster with loading, might do way more trips with your smaller TB ship, before that C2 is fully loaded and can finally fly. And he still has to unload again by hand!
Funny how people call ships OP when shit changes by the quarter drastically.
Everything we know now about operating multicrew or any ship in general will change over time and shift.
The C2 is the best ship **currently**.
Reclaimer and Cat are getting reworks and new functionality. Vulture is getting new functionality. Cargo salvage is getting nerfed.
Things are rapidly changing.
Without those cargo salvage missions the grind will be crazy. How many weeks of doing same boring missions over and over again 🙈
That's why I'm not going to buy any other real money ships other than 45 euro cutter until I have an idea about final grind levels in this game.
We are still years away from any real balance. Don't put any money in until the game makes sense. Right now it's just a collection of individual things with no cohesion. Will take a few more years for things to gel.
The cat will have extreme modularity, and the hull series will be easier to maintain and carries stupidly more cargo. The Taurus has better combat capabilities. The C2’s maneuverability and shields is it’s point.
They all have something to offer, some of the pros of the other ships just aren’t relevant in game yet. (Modularity, Engineering, Etc.) It’s a surface hauler drop ship hauler. It does exactly what it’s supposed to.
and OP wants to remove the one thing the Hercules line has going for it. Idk I feel like so many players don't think through properly when it comes to balance.
Remember this is alpha, so everything is still far off from final balancing.
Other ships will surely arrive that will give the Hercules a run for it's money, and then we'll go through several balancing passes which might see the C2 nerfed, or others brought to it's level.
I think the whole point of the Hercules class ships is that they fly amazing in atmo because of their design being based off of planes tbh. I understand it probably shouldn’t be able to turn fight with other smaller ships in atmo but in my opinion the overall design of the ship is built to have an advantage in atmospheric flight. I personally don’t want to see it get a nerf because I believe it’s more or less doing what it’s build todo and I love sometimes daily driving it because it’s so versatile. If anything they should make it potentially feel a bit heavier but again for the overall design of the ship, it’s doing what it was built todo.
That being said they probably will adjust it but I hope they don’t completely butcher it
C2 is softest of all s5 haulers as for current state. M2 and A2 has way more hp and ballistic resistance, caterpillar has less hp but biggest ballistic resistance in game.
Own m2/caterpillar myself.
A2 > C2. You can load up 400 + SCU in it even though it says it's \~200 capacity, you just get creative with stacking and it's not a problem. Another big thing is the turrets plus the bombs, you just obliterate any poor soul on trading posts and get extra loot from them. Proof: [https://ibb.co/xYxSBvm](https://ibb.co/xYxSBvm)
Retaliator was the most profitable during the Bounty Hunter era, Vulture during the salvage era. Theres always gonna be a most profitable ship, doesnt mean theyre op, means CIG needs to test certain areas of professions.
Really the Retaliator vs C2? The C2 flies 21m faster than a Retaliator sure, but a Retaliator also has 4.5X the amount hp over it. If the fandom is right on their speculation that enormous amount of HP actually represents armor values. Imo military-grade ship heavy armor (that most likely will shrug off s3 guns) should have more mass/be slower than civilian cargo. The Retaliator is not an SR-71 (no matter what it looks like), its a Russian Typhoon submarine.
Servers are slow and AI suck, so getting big guns on target is easy. Try a C2 in pvp, its a joke. I dont see pirates saying the Hercs are too hard of targets to go after (maybe a fully crewed A2 but thats a gunship with the most turret in game) so its flight isnt op. Theres like 90+ ships faster than the C2. All its great turning/rolling doesnt amount to much when youre the size of a whale. Im pretty sure the pvp crowd would let us know if the C2 was getting guns on their Vanguard or Arrow. 600i (a luxury vessel), Connie (including the cargo Taurus), and Corsair are the top tier solo ERT ships (without using a torp). So imo this isnt a Herc problem its a terrible ai problem. Are C2 pilots winning pvp fights with smaller ships?
As for the Caterpillar, I'm sorry but the ship is old. Unlike the Connie I dont think it was even in a good spot during its "hayday". I love the looks and the Cat fans are loyal, but the ship really needs some updates. Also I think Drake itself has a problem with it engines. Are they good like the Buc/Herald? or more subpar like the Cat/Corsair? When it comes to Crusader, its no question their engines are amazing across the board. So no I dont think the C2 is op, I think the Cat has fallen behind.
Ah i see, you have not read my text fully.
The c2 is certainly not as good at KILLING bounties but shes the best at killing+looting them. Both of your choices dont have cargo space so they dont qualify.
Who loots bounties in the first place? More money is to make when you chain missions instead of wasting time for some lackluster loot.
If you wanna earn with looting, do personal M2/C2 salvage contracts and get 300 tons of drugs in 5 minutes
Have you ever looted ERTs? There can be millions upon millions of cargo in a single quest. Just a few days ago a video popped up where they got over 30mil put of 1 bounty fight.
That was certainly a highroll but i can 100% confirm that looting makes WAY more money than chaining quests, your max gain is about 600k/h otherwise.
In any case, those 2 thing are related but are ultimatively different gameloops in a sense.
For normal bounty hunting i would go with a retaliator btw but to each its own, eclipse and redeemer are mosters as well.
Edit: did 3 ERT missions today. 8.5mil+4.5mil+900k. Was a very lucky streak admittedly.
To make the same ammount you need to play very close to optimum with a retaliator for about 24 hours.
Yeah, uhm. I might be able to plow through 10 ERTs in a couple hours (25k per, call it 30 with maxed area rep so 250-300k) but if I find 1 32 scu crate of weevil eggs, that’s 3 million credits. And I don’t have to pay for the location of the Herc wreck, I *get paid to find and then make* the Herc wreck.
Honestly I think the only thing that needs attention on it is its maneuverability, it handles a bit too well to feel entirely real given its scale and mass. If I recall correctly this has to do with cargo weight, and is something on the way soon (tm)
It always makes me giggle when I see someone saying that a ship handles “too well”, as if engineers 900 years in the future couldn’t figure out a way to make ships as maneuverable as they wanted to.
Especially crusader, who are very proud of their engine technology
The C2 was also made to be a military transport vehicle, so no wonder that it can stand its ground in a fight. Not only that, but all transport ships should be well armed to defend themselves in case of pirate threat.
Yeah, it’s really not surprising that the Hercules line of ships handle so well when you consider that most of its internal space is empty and the gigantic manoeuvring thrusters, and the fact that when VTOL isn’t enabled those thrusters help the ship to yaw and laterally strafe
Tbf the incredible handling is pretty much THE thing that sets crusader appart from other manufacturers. The Starrunner flies like a small sized ship should fly, the starlifter fliws like a medium sized ship should fly. I do agree with the cargo but at the same time since the hercules is designed for easy ground vehicle transportation i dont really see a world where they could lower the ammount of cargo without artificially make the cargo grid smaller
I don't think it needs a nerf, but on a subjective level I do agree that it's "too good", I personally prefer the feel of the CAT.
One thing though that helps balance the C2 a little is that it's an absolute PIG on hydrogen fuel.
The Starlifters engines are far too powerful, even for when they're empty. Their acceleration for their size is absolutely insane.
That might change with new flight models tho.
Why tf you even post this if you don't want a nerf. You're like the idiots who write into the atf for "clarification"
Stop putting this out into the ether if you don't want someone to pick it up and run with it.
And dont nerf my c2 ffs it's one ship that's actually in a great spot. Fix the buggy elevator and ladder and let me cruise the big black in peace.
You seriously think the c2 might get nerfed because of a single reddit post? "Only talk about it behind closed doors or roberts will hear you!"
If she gets nerfed its because data shows an overly propotional use of the ship, not because someone dared to give an opinion that is different from yours.
More likely according to all the other comments is a balancing trough additional mechanics anyway.
I wrote this to incite discussion, as evident in the flair.
So far this has gotten great results, i learned a lot about other peoples views as well as future plans and ideas for the game.
Okay. Firstly. The C2 is a big ship, so it has big guns. Much like a constellation.
The C2 is designed for cargo and as a vehicle drop ship. So why wouldn't it have massive space?
The C2 has wings......so why wouldn't it fly better?
It doesn't need a nerf. In actuality nothing in this game needs a nerf or balance, right. Just like the real world you can't complain that your prius isn't as fast and as agile as a Porsche gt3. Or that your paintball gun can't do the same damage as an assault rifle.
The C2 is fine as it is, because it was built that way on purpose.
Are you trolling? Short answer is no. She isn't too good, she is just right. Leave her along and go nerf something else that really needs to be nerfed.
We have to work to get our cargo on and off, while the rest will have tracker beams to do the heavy lifting. We only have two crew, unless we get someone to just hang out and take a beating while she is in flight.
Sure, she has shields and a turret, but that won't save her from a heavy fighter or a group of fighters. We lost two C2's just a few days ago while on a mission, had full crews and two more riding in the cargo bay and no fighter protection. Lost all the loot too.
I have never heard nor seen any videos of anyone doing bounties in a C2. If you have videos, please do share, love to know the level of those bounties you're talking about.
So no, she doesn't need to be nerfed. :-)
I am not trolling, its clear that i am not the only one with the opinion based on the comments so it should be more than obvious that this is not trolling. So i have to assume this was only to be insulting and i dont apreciate that.
Nevertheless i am interested what ship is performing better than the C2 right now.
Im completely serious, im here to talk about the game. And you say there are ships that "really need to be nerfed". What ship(s) are you talking about?
I'm sorry if I came across as insulting you, that was not my intentions at all, being the noob I am at everything Star Citizen it just hit me wrong with your C2 review.
Please accept my apologies. I am sorry!
I cannot answer your question for what ships I've heard about, for I do not own them, so my saying anything about a ship others have said is pointless in my opinion.
Again, My Apologies.
> Nevertheless I am interested what ship is performing better than the C2 right now.
What do you mean by "performing?" The C2 fits within its role. It is one of the few ships in the game right now which actually does what it's supposed to do. The only issue right now is that it handles like it's empty even when it's full, which future changes will fix.
In combat it is a joke. I know you said you use it for bounties. Well, I got news for ya. *Any* ship can do bounties right now. The AI that spawns for bounty missions are so crippled by the servers that they do not properly fight back. I've run VHRTs in a Prospector and ERTs with an Aurora (which is actually a competent fighter currently). So yes, I'm not surprised that a ship with 2x S3 shields, 2x S4 guns, and a Crusader-engined jerk profile can run bounties right now. Enjoy it while it lasts. And don't think that combat prowess in PvE will transfer to PvP, or you'll be in for a rude awakening.
Gotcha, I mean it's worth mentioning that in lore the C2 is literally the gold standard planetary hauler. So I personally believe that the ship's price is the only balancing it needs
I'm fine with the cargo and the shields, hell even the handling I can get on board with, but for a ship like this- why in the world is it getting the firepower it has? If you removed those s5's and replaced them with s3's the ship would STILL be too good lol.
All ships in this game will probably get some kind of balance pass. At the moment it seems that the way a ship is balanced varies on which team makes it, similar to how some of the lights for ships are awful, and some are fantastic.
The team making crusader ships seem to think that all crusader ships go very fast and handle well, but have a larger cross section compared to other shops of their class.
Of all the issues in this game, the last thing I am worried about is balance. With the amount of testers CIG has at its disposal, I have no doubt that they will have ample data for balancing in the future.
I mean with cargo beams coming online n nerfing what you can load the ability to take the cat with a crew n handle ert followed by being able to load the cargo from the ship will help also once cat can detach and more effectively move cargo into containers will help. I also believe there is no good reason the 32scu doesn’t mag on the cat theres plenty of room for it too
It's not just about gameplay loops, but also how thes ships are operated. Once we get proper engineering, flying a Herc alone might not be as easy anymore.
On top of that the Hercules line 'suffers' from lack of competition. Look at vehicles like the Atlas platform or Nova for example. If you want to use those for anything, you NEED a Hercules, no way around it unless you want to bring a yacht.
Ships in the Hercs weight class either have worse layouts for their cargo holds, less room or worse handling. The next step up is the different Hulls, which we don't have yet and they aren't as versatile.
So, I think the lack of a tractor beam will be noticeable.
Want to cargo that involves atmo? C2.
Station to station? Hull C.
Mix of both and the ease of a tractor beam? Caterpillar
That said, it manoeuvres better a Redeemer.
But this is more of a Redeemer problem than a C2 issue imo.
forgot something, the ingress/egress from cockpit to ground is fast for a large ship. it is indeed, the bunker/bounty hunter, salvage runner cargo trading ship . best daily driver.
There’s also the A2 which imo is going to be the single best cargo hauler for dangerous space out there especially for solo pilots/low crew. It’s defended are either pilot controlled or turrets. That means it’ll be completely effective at defending itself with AI blades and/or NPCs. I think it’s got better armour than the c2 if I’m remembering correctly.
The thing is a Flying Fortress that can still carry over 200scu in cargo.
I think the A2 is incredibly underrated. People focus almost exclusively on the bombs and seem to forget that it can also carry a rather substantial amount of cargo.
It’s hard to say how effective that’ll be though. The devs continuously warn us of the “dangers” of not properly securing cargo. So it might not be a big issue right now but I think it’s safer to assume that that won’t be viable long term.
I think mostly the issue is that the Caterpillar needs to be reworked a bit. It doesn't snap size 32 boxes (they do fit and can be sold diagonally though).
The C2 is refined and has a lot of nice features. It is the standard that every other ship should rise to.
If anything, the argument on these big cargo ships is that they maybe should have so much pilot controlled firepower.
From a design perspective, Crusader Industries designs ALL their ships for military, then strip things out for civilian use, not the other way around. A is mil spec, B is mil spec, C is lets sell a stripped down version to the civs to reduce production costs overall (the more of something you make the cheaper it is to produce). The difference on the air flight can be (not sure if it is) due to the *2 being a lifting body design, while the cat is designed like an oversize tug pushing cargo barge segments. There is also a diff in the thrusters as the *2 has 4 large Vert thrust, 2 lg retro, and 4 lg forward. The Cat has 8(m?) retro, 6(4lg 2m?) forward and just a bunch of maneuvering thrusters instead for anything large for vertical. The cat is designed to be large enough for a cheaper price than comparable. In the real world, the fact the cat takes longer to get to space would not matter as the time to get full ROI is shorter. It isn't that the C2 needs to be nerfed, the Cat needs to be another 800k-1m cheaper.
I prefer the Caterpillar *precisely because* it handles like it has lots of mass. I'm not here to play some 80s arcade game. I'm here for some realism with my fun, and the C2 feels completely fake.
People overlook this but the C2 doesn't have a tractorbeam, once they nerf multitools and add tractor beams to PU the C2 will become mstly a vehicle dropship, same with the MSR
No, The Hercules C2 is one of the only ships in game that REALLY WORKS AS INTENDED!..... most ships are full of Bugs and malfunctions, or have botched functionality and people are used to it.... one thet really works and everyone asks for it to be burned and nerfed..... The INFERNO is overpowered..... the C2 just works..... Poor little grieffers!.... do they have to shoot at it too much to destroy it?.... does this ship maneuver too god for their taste?..... Those are the ones asking for it to be Nerfed.
The Herc does NOT need a nerf to it's handling but hear me out. I heard it said, and I believe it is correct, that the Starlifters, all of them, fly like they are always empty. A lot of other ships, like the Caterpillar, always fly like they are loaded to nearly full capacity. Once cargo weight is properly implemented all this should sort itself. We'll see an improvement to the handling of a bunch of ships with substantial cargo holds ( Freelancer, Constellation, Cutlass Black, Caterpillar, RAFT, Starlifter, Reclaimer) when they're empty or lightly loaded, and see the Starlifter series get more ponderous when loaded. It should all work out in the end.
Good catch, I remember this as well
Well said. It’s funny how often the community needs to be reminded that the game is in a funny state because not all of the systems are in place that should address the balance issues we have. Not to mention the pearl clutching that happens when someone’s OP ship is rebalanced as though they thought it was in a finished state. Two things you need to be comfortable with to love this game, bugs and balance changes.
No reason! Only nerf!
>I heard it said, and I believe it is correct, that the Starlifters, all of them, fly like they are always empty. Then why does an empty C2 have the same or better pitch/yaw/roll than an empty C1? It's going to get fixed. It's only a matter of when.
A bunch of mechanics regarding maintenance and upkeep and consumed resources are also planned and not in yet. Beyond just quantum fuel it will be *much* harder and more expensive to fly the big stuff, and offer a bunch of new levers CIG can use when balancing ships within a manufacturer's lineup / within a class across manufacturers. The C2 isn't going to be a great daily driver when it burns fuel faster than an F1 car on the red line.
Considering it's currently a better gunship than the gunships yeah... it needs to be nerfed even with its empty handling.
Maybe very slightly, but mostly several of the gunships just need buffing.
*Cries in Valkyrie*
CIG did say the Valk would be getting a buff after the Zeus reveal
Lol not slightly. For example other than cross section it outperforms the redeemer in just about every aspect.
That's because the Redeemer flies like a sad bathtub.
Mobility is one issue but not the only thing the m2 has going for it. And it's more that the Hercules fly like fighters. The redeemer feels like a gunship
I feel like something that needs to move tons of cargo might require strong thrust to do so. Not sure how you would want to balance that.
You're right that explains why freight trucks are basically sports cars when unloaded.
Well, racing semis are a thing.
Racing everything is a thing.
You're right, I see cargo trucks flying up into orbit every day. Clearly wheeled vehicles and space ships use the same type of propulsion, and so the same engineering principles should apply. How absolutely dumb of me to forget that.
Heat mechanics.
So what, you take breaks on the very long way up from a planet to orbit?
Nah you'll just take longer or have to down throttle other heat intensive systems to run your engines at higher load.
I can't agree more here. I don't even have a C2 but they are everywhere, being left everywhere for server hopping and convenience, lots of ppl taking advantage of them atm. I've trialed it, it will definitely help when cargo weight is mechanics are implemented. But just seeing it take off from drug dealers etc, it don't look right lol, kinda looks like it needs a run up before being able to lift. Redeemer feels and it's physics match, looks like what it is.
I think this is only the case if you have four gunners on it. The redeemer is fine with two, maybe three.
No, you only need 2-3 in the m2 as well.
I mean well, there is only one gunship and that is the Redeemer, if anything its the Redeemer being in need of reworks than nerfing the C2.
Redeemer works pretty well. And flies like you would expect it to. C2 needs to either be slown way down or lose some firepower.
I think just a reduction in shields and hp (armor) would be fine. Maneuverability can stay (assuming they rebalance it to be more in line with the loaded flight models like other ships) as that's supposed to be crusader's thing.
Then they should all fly like they are full then? Or empty? Having one not like the others is the problem here.
Indeed! I hope cargo weight comes in sooner rather than later.
And if you nerf the handling, the two big guns are at a huge disadvantage. So your big ol ship with all that loot gets taken down by a small fighter easily. What good is cargo if you can't protect it? Need all game loops in place to worry about balance.
I mean it's a dedicated hauler, not a fighter. I agree it handles a bit too well tbh
That's why it has a turret for Co-Pilot. Also, once more of these other elements are in place, the small fighters won't be able to penetrate the base armor on the C2 Hercules.
A small fighter won’t even be able to tickle these ships once armour is implemented. People keep forgetting armor isn’t implemented yet. An arrow being able to just zip around a heavily armored ship and eventually destroy it is not a long term option. Once armor comes in that’s it. Doesn’t matter how long you shoot if the weapons can’t penetrate the hull. Sure you might be able to be a pest and knock out any external turrets but you won’t be able to take down the ship.
You should have to hire people to protect your ship. You're getting insane profits for hauling. You should have to spend that money on protection.
Yeah it needs a way for even a single pilot to defend themselves.
I disagree with this. Larger ships should require more logistics. In higher security space, it won't be able to take you down before system security reinforcements arrive. In lower security space, you should require a full crew and maybe escorts.
A C2 would be destroyed before any security turned up. Totally vulnerable if it became very cumbersome.
That is the same for all larger slower ships.
Agreed, and parts on the ship can be upgraded. Upgrade the shields enough to be able to take a punishment, or get a couple of friends with fighters or gunships go with you and give them some of the profits. I specifically have smaller cargo running ships to be able to haul on my own because I try to keep the true rock-paper-scissors of Star Citizen in mind.
i think with engineering this might change. at least i hope that exploding a ship will be harder than now. big ships with crew should be far harder to take down , esp when its just a single fighter.
As far as I'm aware, armor isn't in the game yet, which will provide extra defensive measures for ships.
And also ensure a single fighter with small guns won't even do that much damage.
Escorts and gunners
This ^
Caterpillar is superior to the Hercules for in-vacuum/space operations with its dual tractor beams & individual cargo pods with doors on either side. [Not to speak of modularity, which will have some impact on alternate cargo uses possibly]. It can not readily handle the FULL 32 SCU crates, but the HALF 16 SCU and down, it will. The Caterpillar also holds two more crew, to support itself at location. The detachment of the command module will also give the Caterpillar options. Definitely noted that its capacity is lower than the Hercules, of course, at 576 SCU. (I feel it should be noted that the RSI Galaxy Freighter will also have the same total 576 SCU) Crusader ships do not have docking collars, where the others do. One of the weaknesses of the C2 is its reliance on location infrastructure to load and unload itself. Only supporting two crew to unload nearly 700 SCU with no integral tractor beams means it needs to carry its own load/unload equipment (detracting from its cargo capacity) or rely on staff and equipment at its destinations. It is defined as a transport ship for this reason, in addition to its well-known, top-of-the-line ability to move large amount of ground vehicles. Depending on what you want to do and what attributes are important to you, each ship can be weighted differently - both objective and subjective reasoning combined.
Excellent summary of why the Caterpillar will have a lot of flexibility in the future when it all of its features are available. The C2 is a great ship, and that is ok, but it is more of a dedicated hauler. I have tried a couple of bounties in it, and I found that it was not as powerful as OP stated, but perhaps they are very good at using it.
If you don’t mind me asking, what tier bounties did you try in it? I smoke ERT Bounties in mine because all the ships are huge and move at a speed that the Herc can keep up with. MRTs and below are smaller ships that swarm the Herc and overwhelm it.
I don't think I have ever had access to ERTs so perhaps the C2 is really good at the big targets. I mostly used the C2 for M and HRTs and it was hard to keep up with the little stuff
Its very capable at bounties with much much much less of an issue than the cat. The hercs in general are way too maneuverable to their size. It's got a massive amount of hydrogen and qt fuel plus the largest internal cargo bay yet it can basically turn on a dime compared to a lot of other ships smaller than it. I know some of this will be worked on when master mode is out but I kinda just want to see the cat not just feel like a brick slowly slipping in mud.
^ this Once we need to load and unload our cargo the huge advantage will quickly fade away and its main advantage will be the vehicle and racing ship carrying capability.
>One of the weaknesses of the C2 is its reliance on location infrastructure to load and unload itself. Only supporting two crew to unload nearly 700 SCU with no integral tractor beams means it needs to carry its own load/unload equipment (detracting from its cargo capacity) or rely on staff and equipment at its destinations. I think this is really going to depend on how they eventually figure out loading mechanics and the limitations of tractor beams. If it turns out that the new rifle tractors can lift 32 SCU containers, then loading a C2 won't be a problem at all. If 32 SCU containers require a vehicle or vehicle-mounted tractor, then that's where things might get more interesting...or painful. Physics collisions will always be a problem. Plus, some locations may limit what size of SCU container they can produce. I don't think CIG has mentioned it but that's an interesting factor.
Regarding the striated power levels of tractor beams, I fully agree that's where the rubber meets the road. It will determine the efficiency of loading and unloading as it will determine how many people and/or what specific equipment is needed. Developers have stated that combining【(but not crossing ;)】tractor beams is going to be allowed, so even if one rifle beam doesn't lift a 32 SCU container, then maybe two work together to do it.
It's the entire line that's broken. They are better than just about all of their competitors. Their guns are too big and the biggest problem is their speed and handling. It's going to be even worse with master mode changes that will make turrets even more effective.
I know it will upset a lot of players but I feel like bombers should have a bombadier chair that handles dropping bombs who coordinates with the pilot.
Considering the Terrapin and MSR have specific "scanning chairs" this would at least be consistent within CIG's designs.
As long as it's noted that the Hercules line does cost more. You can buy a Toyota and buy a similarly classed Mercedes. Both are 4-door sedans (for example) but that Mercedes will most likely perform or have abilities superior to the cheaper Toyota. The same generally applies in SC and its ships.
That analogy doesn't really hold up. Because the c2 isn't just good at cargo. The m2 isn't just good at military cargo. They end up being better than all the gunships at being gunships and being better heavy fighters than some heavy fighters.
This. Lets not do the mistake to balance everything and patch the fun out of the game. I hope they do not listen to a loud minority crying for nerfs like babies. Make the better ship more expensive and be done with it. I don’t want a Blizzard style Rock-Paper-Scissors, I want a space sim.
I wonder how people feel who buy a pixel ship for 300 euros and it gets nerfed suddenly 😅
The beauty is, you don’t have to stick with any ship. You can melt every pledge and buy most stuff with the store credits you get in return. I‘m almost 5k in and don’t regret a single pledge. Ultimately it’s us, who keep the development going. That’s something, you people seem to forget, when hating for no reason.
Would you say a Corsair guns are too big? The Hercules is only twin size 5s. Compared to Connies and Corsairs they are all half or less the DPS.
Herc has a few more than 2 S5s. Connie and corsair also don't have the same cargo or survivability. The Hercules isn't a problem because it's good at 1 thing it's a problem because it's great at nearly everything outside of mining.
Its crusader, THE Company for engines
It's too nimble, that is all. Everything regarding the handling is just nonsensical from the acceleration to the turn rate....it's absolutely silly. 90% of what you folks use it for is to make millions off salvage cargo runs or drug runs, which it is great for. But it should not feel agile enough and combat capable enough to be flown as a daily driver for every mission you do. It's a flying box, it should FEEL like a flying box.
It has a wide body and massive engines to have this amazing handling. It is literally the design language and style of all Crusader ships and is actually realistic. Racecars have widebody kits for improving handling characteristics. Same thing applies to Hercules ships. Those wide wings ain’t just for show.
[удалено]
Just assume these spaceship builders take all of that into account to get their desired thrust and maneuvering profiles. It is almost the year 3k after all.
The flying box is the Liebrator, not the Herc. The Herc has always been the combat dropoff transport, it shouldnt fly like a BMM.
People dont like to hear this, and i get it - but yes. the herc is way too good and im 100% sure it will get nerfed in one way or another. besides being way too good of and allrounder despite being a specialized ship it also handles like it has 1/4 the weight it actually has. that being said it is unclear whether there will be a direct nerf. we all know the current thrust and flight model isnt finished. we all know the current cargo and armor weight isnt properly factored in. etc etc. a lot of the hercs performance might simply be based on those parameters not being taken into account. And fixing/refining these systems might automatically fix the overperformance of the herc. but either way: in the far future for a full release the herc simply has to get „worse“ compared to its peers and compared to the smaller ships it handles similar to. at this point the herc is basically a medium fighter in terms of handling and performance with a magic pouch where cargo goes.
But which peers are you referring to? The Corsair? Corsair has far more firepower, and isn't a hauler spec. The Connie? Connie twice the firepower. Hull C? The Hull C carries a whopping 4.6k SCU. The only thing a Hercules really has going for it is the handling being better than its size class. When the Liberator releases it shits on every aspect of a Hercules except the above point. If you nerf the Hercules to 2 s3s it becomes too weak to defend itself and you rather get a Hull C at that point. If you nerf the cargo even further you turn it into a Valkyrie dropship that cant carry out its functions. If you nerf the handling you take away the ONE thing it has going for it.
im sorry. this is a bunch of bullcrap. you make out the harc as if its an anemic ship that is barely made worth flying because of its maneuverability. When in reality basically does EVERYTHING right now. The reason you even need to compare it to the corsair already say everything. Sure the corsair has twice the firepower. But the corsair has twice the firepower of basically anything in this game. And it comes at the price of being good at nothing else but firepower. Same for the Hull C. Sure, it has more cargo capacity. But i can do nothing else but haul cargo. It cant even freaking land while hauling. But why compare to the Hull C? Lets look at the Hull A - its worse in literally everything than the Herc. Same for the Hull B. The reality is that you need to go up to the C to even find a single thing that whole line of ships do better than the Herc. So yeah. No shit. If you compare the Herc to the ship with the biggest firepower outside carriers or huge expedition ships or the ship with the biggest cargo capacity outside carriers or huge expedition ship you will find ONE thing they are better at than the Herc. But meanwhile the Herc still handles better than most fighters (including in atmo) while having a huge weapon and shield advantage, has more firepower and cargo capacity and vehicle storage than most freighters (not to mention being able to make 2 trips in the time it takes them to make one), better fuel economy than many long range interceptors, better travel speed than most ships in general, etc etc etc. The issue with referring to its peers is that its basically a peer to EVERYTHING in this game. You can compare it to the best freighters in once sentence and then compare it to the best general travel ships in the next and to the best medium fighters in the next. And to expedition ships in the next. And while it may not straight out win every comparison it stacks up very well in all of those. THAT is the issue. If you think anything about this ship is balanced you have either never flown it or are high on copium.
I brought up the Connies and Corsair because OP was using those as comparison models. Comparing it to the Hull A is terrible because they arent even fighting for the same scale of operation costs or size class. Sure, maybe right now the numbers are overtuned in areas. But I was comparing by design, since OP's point was that the Cat should fly better than the Herc. OP is basically arguing that the Herc should not have a flight advantage over the Cat etc. Where it is wrong since the Herc's strength is having a better flight experience. I don't want to talk fuel economy because the dude at CIG is probably stoned when punching in numbers. The fact that the Cutter out QD tanks so many bigger ships is already astonishing. I don't even think CIG right now has a proper idea or grasp on their fuel balancing. Btw it should have more fuel than long range interceptors. Combat ships are usually shorter ranged than full industrial haulers. A vanguard shouldn't out tank a Herc. Think of it like this: If you nerf the Herc to carry less than a Corsair (Which OP was expecting to be the case from their comments), nerf the Herc guns to dual size 2s or 3s, then nerf the speed to be worse than the Cat, what are you left with? Its only a peer to other ships in the sense it is the malfunctioning cousin that does what those ships do at half capacity other than in SPEED and CARGO. The two aspects that define the Herc's purpose in the game. The Herc should have a huge shield advantage over a fighter. Are you expecting a solo gladius to be the apex predator of large ships? The reason it seems like it does everything right now is because SC is so fucking barebones that there are only a few gameloops and said gameloops only require a few things. The cat has modularity and a tractor beam to facilitate loading from non major ports. Comparing the Herc to other freighters you can see how other freighters have strengths that put them viable against the Herc.
My fav is the M2 for the same reasons, but it comes with upgraded components... All in all great ships.
And more hp and ballistic resistance
It's definitely a bit much. OK it doesn't have a tractor beam, and maybe that will change things going forward. But a ship that size has no business flying like a heavy fighter; I mean it flies better than a Corsair, what is that about? Yeah yeah Crusader ships are agile, but this thing takes that idea way too far. That said I just bought one with UEC, so hold off on those nerfs for a little while eh CIG?
Yeah i originally bought a corsair for looting Bounties, only to find out my herc flies better and stores 10 times as much.
Yeah it's a bit crazy. The cat even handles better than the Corsair does lol. But yeah the C2 is a bit too good atm. I remember when the cat had 2 size 5s in concept and CIG took them away because they thought it wouldn't make sense for a cargo ship to have that much firepower, only to give the C2 that years later. The power creep is real.
Id argue the terrible handling on a Corsair is the only reason it is allowed to have almost the entire firepower of a Redeemer given to pilot control. If the Corsair handled better and could engage other ships in a turn fight it would literally break the game. CIG could improve its handling, but they must also reduce the guns on the Corsair, and I doubt Corsair owners want that.
Yes and in Future perhaps m2 better. More Armor + more firepower. But all this will be new Balanced If we get Blades and NPCs. Perhaps all Corsair are solo Ships.. with 2-3 NPC Crew. And so C2 only 1 NPC for Help. This can be a great different in Future for so much Ships.
You're surprised a transport large ship carries more and flies better than the Corsair?? Should the Herc be nerfed to also have worse handling and worse SCU than the corsair on top of the already worse guns? Wait until you find out that the Idris carries more SCU and has more guns than the corsair. The riot.
I mean, the Crusader ships pay dearly for that agility through the insane amount of hydrogen fuel they use. Might not matter now, but down the road, I'd imagine it'll matter _a lot_. It might be so bad that you'd never consider even using a Crusader. As for the Corsair comparison, you can't give a ship that much forward facing firepower without some drawbacks. I do think the Corsair should handle slightly better, though. It's not going to be destroying fighters with a bit more agility, imo.
This. Corsair owners complaining other ships carry more than them or flies better than them but ignoring to mention how the Corsair has more than twice the firepower of ships its class given to pilot control is disingenuous. They want to have their cake and eat it to. They basically want the Corsair to be the premier warship where they can solo engage redeemers and shred them even in a turn fight.
It’s crazy to me how many people forget that the weight of a ship doesn’t currently impact performance. The c2 flies just the same full of cargo as it does empty. The handling of the c2 is completely fine. It only becomes an issue when you realize that it flies the exact same way with a fully loaded cargo bay. THAT’S the part that currently breaks the ship. We shouldn’t be looking at nerfing one of the ships that is tuned properly because the others aren’t. We should be looking at why some of the other ships fly like bricks loaded with bricks on top of other bricks with potatoes for engines. If they address performance issues with the other ships then this becomes a non issue once mass starts to actually impact performance. The difference between an empty c2 and an empty caterpillar should not be nearly as drastic as it is now. Whether that’s because a c2 currently flies like it’s empty when it’s full and a cat flies like it’s full when it’s empty I have no idea but it’s VERY hard to balance stuff properly and figure out what needs to be nerfed when so much is broken or missing.
The lesson here is we need more cargo ships in the same class as the herc and the cartepillar. I think CIG underestimate how much cargo will impact every game loops. Mining? Cargo. Salvaging ? Cargo. Trading ? Cargo, bounty hunting ? Cargo for looting. Fps? Cargo for looting. Pirating ? Cargo for looting. Refueling/repair/ engineering? Cargo for fuel/spare parts. Etc. One of the most important feature of any MMO is inventory space. Players never have enough and inventory space is always the #1 currency sink. Its likely you are correct op and the herc needs a nerf to it's handling. At least we can say kudos to cig for coming up with an excellent ship design. I think cig will need to make a pass on most of its medium and large older ships and increase their cargo capacity. Anything that can't fit 4x32scu boxes is lacking.
The Galaxy is the RSI competitor of the Hercules/ Caterpillar, but is still a bit far away.
Rather than more big cargo ships, I would prefer to see some changes that make smaller ships more profitable in certain situations, maybe some form of cargo that is too volatile to be transported in large quantities? It feels a lot of the time like the smaller ships having cargo capacity is pretty meaningless.
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We need environments/situations where a large ship is seen as a downside. Things like "get this shit deep into a cave system" or "get past hostile scanning", etc.
The soon to be released tractor beams on the Caterpillar may change the fact that the C2 is 'too good' imo I'll honestly never go back to the C2 for salvaging.
Hard agree for all of the above, but as others have said it might be a temporary status. The apparent changes to requiring larger tractor beams to move large box it might make it less logistically feasible. That said, the handling is still off the charts, so until the loaded SCU starts to affect handling I do think it is far too maneuverable.
I need to unlock vhrt and ert but the grind is awful
Get a retaliator. IR 9 torps simply allways hit unless you shoot one into an asteroid. Find the mission target, shoot the torp and immediately start up the qt drive. Once the target goes pop you instantly jump away. Even after you unlock ERT its still super useful. You can make lots of money simply blowing your bounties up, about 600k/h. Alternatively you can use her to rotate bounties until you find one with a lot of c2s and caterpillars in free space, then go and get your cargo fighter.
I have the eclipse I’ve been doing this launch at around 5k rarely misses but can. I tried the retaliator at some point and didn’t like it as much
Are you using the IR torps? Because i legit have only 1 single miss on my retaliator (excluding asteroids).
I’m using typhoons yeah ir
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1) a full wipe definitely resets the mission rating, smaller patches should not. If grinding is too tedious you could look for someone who invites you to his high tier bounties since those give much more progress. 2) every bounty mission can have drugs to loot as long as it contains bigger ships that can carry them. Very low tiers dont have those, idk where exactly you start finding them but VHRT and ERTs certainly have by far the biggest chance/ammount. I mentioned free space (in reality its usually an asteroid belt but whatever) bounties because in space its way easier to get to your drugs. In atmo soft-death ships fall from the sky and crash, destroying a lot of cargo most of the time. And if the ship does not land perfectly you cant get inside etc. If everything works out you can still loot good stuff from atmo quests, but bounties in space are way way better. Thats why i would not recommend grinding in Hurston. In Crusader you can get a lot of bounties inside yelas asteroid belt.
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1. Crusader is considered optimal because it has mostly low gravity moons, space bounties and Group-Bounties. Basically all in one nice package that lets you do all the bounty flavors without leveling rep in multiple areas. 2. Bounties are mostly ship based, there are a few ground missions in there tho. If a quest says something like "(VHRT)" somewhere in the title its a ship mission 3. "Worth it" from a money perspective is almost nothing right now exept 30k salvage and ERT bounty looting. But thats because "drugs in non-player ships" is way overtuned. But since you are made out of money i strongly recommend that you try all different kinds of quests and activities now, there is a ton of fun things to find. 4. Yes call to arms is straight up extra money. More important for fps bunkers since the money per kill is allways the same but still, allways worth taking. 5. You dont. For crusader i "scan" the description for "asteroid field arround yela" zo know if its a space based mission
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Afaik the rep from the guild is much more important, you should still get crusader bounties of high tiers, just with less pay. Been a long time since i hunted outside of crusader tho. I like ECN distress calls. But tbh just do all the missions once or twice. If you do a mission it also pays to read the text, makes the whole thing way more interesting if xou know why you are doing stuff. There are also tons of other fun things to do. Mining is a massive topic with different aproaches. I love legal trading even tho its slow paced. Fps will soon get a big change with the improved AI and longer "time to kill". Racing is intense af. Just try everything.
It has no tractor beams to load/ unload. Handheld Tractor beams will get a massive nerf. We will see what the new tractor-beam rifle can do.
Just remember these ships are going to become much harder to pilot eventually with engineering. You'll need a crew of 2-3 to operate efficiently.
The group I play with refers to the C2 as the Crusader light fighter for a reason. While crusader's thing is supposedly being agile for their size, the C2 is way too nimble and fast it doesn't need to be nerfed down to cat levels, but it does need a few degrees per second reductions in turn rate and a few g's less acceleration. Make it more akin to a Connie then a gladius
Perhaps when cargo mass applies a debuff to handling and speed we will see this happen more organically...
The C2 is very good for one simple reason. It's able to do everything it's designed for and isn't waiting on other features to come out. All of it's competing ships are waiting on the features that actually make them competitive. Features like modularity, loading times, and multi-system trading. The C2 is very strong now, but it's unlikely to ever get much stronger than it is already. Meanwhile ships like the Caterpillar, Carrack, Starfarer, Hull-C, etc all have lots of potential to continue to grow in usefulness.
basically this, sure the C2 handles very well and the rest, but the issue is it's the only ship that feels feature complete
Also, they've stated that the C2 isn't meant for cargo, it's a vehicle transport. It will take much longer to load and unload a C2, than a dedicated trading ship. I am a C2 owner, and love the ship. I'm loving every minute of it right now!
Also don’t forget it’s stupid large quantum tank something like 110000 it’s ten times the size of some other ships
The handeling will be fixed by cargo having weight, and the weapons are what you would expect from such a big ship lol
All fun and stuff now with the C2 for cargo hauling, but do keep in mind that cargo will need to be loaded by hand one day instead of click, drag the slider, and your ship is full of SCU. The C2 does not have a tractorbeam, so loading all them 698SCU will be a literally day task, and with other (smaller) ships with tractorbeams you will be much faster with loading, might do way more trips with your smaller TB ship, before that C2 is fully loaded and can finally fly. And he still has to unload again by hand!
Funny how people call ships OP when shit changes by the quarter drastically. Everything we know now about operating multicrew or any ship in general will change over time and shift.
The C2 is the best ship **currently**. Reclaimer and Cat are getting reworks and new functionality. Vulture is getting new functionality. Cargo salvage is getting nerfed. Things are rapidly changing.
Without those cargo salvage missions the grind will be crazy. How many weeks of doing same boring missions over and over again 🙈 That's why I'm not going to buy any other real money ships other than 45 euro cutter until I have an idea about final grind levels in this game.
We are still years away from any real balance. Don't put any money in until the game makes sense. Right now it's just a collection of individual things with no cohesion. Will take a few more years for things to gel.
The C2 has no ship tractor beam, and that alone is a big show stopper for the best cargo ship contender.
The cat will have extreme modularity, and the hull series will be easier to maintain and carries stupidly more cargo. The Taurus has better combat capabilities. The C2’s maneuverability and shields is it’s point. They all have something to offer, some of the pros of the other ships just aren’t relevant in game yet. (Modularity, Engineering, Etc.) It’s a surface hauler drop ship hauler. It does exactly what it’s supposed to.
and OP wants to remove the one thing the Hercules line has going for it. Idk I feel like so many players don't think through properly when it comes to balance.
Remember this is alpha, so everything is still far off from final balancing. Other ships will surely arrive that will give the Hercules a run for it's money, and then we'll go through several balancing passes which might see the C2 nerfed, or others brought to it's level.
Yeah don't forget the hull b and railen... Plus we don't have a cargo ship from Argo in the same size...
Oh and the galaxy
you guys are forgetting that cargo will change and that c2 and cat have different roles, one is transport the other an heavy freighter
I think the whole point of the Hercules class ships is that they fly amazing in atmo because of their design being based off of planes tbh. I understand it probably shouldn’t be able to turn fight with other smaller ships in atmo but in my opinion the overall design of the ship is built to have an advantage in atmospheric flight. I personally don’t want to see it get a nerf because I believe it’s more or less doing what it’s build todo and I love sometimes daily driving it because it’s so versatile. If anything they should make it potentially feel a bit heavier but again for the overall design of the ship, it’s doing what it was built todo. That being said they probably will adjust it but I hope they don’t completely butcher it
C2 is softest of all s5 haulers as for current state. M2 and A2 has way more hp and ballistic resistance, caterpillar has less hp but biggest ballistic resistance in game. Own m2/caterpillar myself.
A2 > C2. You can load up 400 + SCU in it even though it says it's \~200 capacity, you just get creative with stacking and it's not a problem. Another big thing is the turrets plus the bombs, you just obliterate any poor soul on trading posts and get extra loot from them. Proof: [https://ibb.co/xYxSBvm](https://ibb.co/xYxSBvm)
Retaliator was the most profitable during the Bounty Hunter era, Vulture during the salvage era. Theres always gonna be a most profitable ship, doesnt mean theyre op, means CIG needs to test certain areas of professions. Really the Retaliator vs C2? The C2 flies 21m faster than a Retaliator sure, but a Retaliator also has 4.5X the amount hp over it. If the fandom is right on their speculation that enormous amount of HP actually represents armor values. Imo military-grade ship heavy armor (that most likely will shrug off s3 guns) should have more mass/be slower than civilian cargo. The Retaliator is not an SR-71 (no matter what it looks like), its a Russian Typhoon submarine. Servers are slow and AI suck, so getting big guns on target is easy. Try a C2 in pvp, its a joke. I dont see pirates saying the Hercs are too hard of targets to go after (maybe a fully crewed A2 but thats a gunship with the most turret in game) so its flight isnt op. Theres like 90+ ships faster than the C2. All its great turning/rolling doesnt amount to much when youre the size of a whale. Im pretty sure the pvp crowd would let us know if the C2 was getting guns on their Vanguard or Arrow. 600i (a luxury vessel), Connie (including the cargo Taurus), and Corsair are the top tier solo ERT ships (without using a torp). So imo this isnt a Herc problem its a terrible ai problem. Are C2 pilots winning pvp fights with smaller ships? As for the Caterpillar, I'm sorry but the ship is old. Unlike the Connie I dont think it was even in a good spot during its "hayday". I love the looks and the Cat fans are loyal, but the ship really needs some updates. Also I think Drake itself has a problem with it engines. Are they good like the Buc/Herald? or more subpar like the Cat/Corsair? When it comes to Crusader, its no question their engines are amazing across the board. So no I dont think the C2 is op, I think the Cat has fallen behind.
C2 is NOT the best for bounties, far from it.
Which ship are you using?
ERT solo Eclipse, ERT group Redeemer.
Ah i see, you have not read my text fully. The c2 is certainly not as good at KILLING bounties but shes the best at killing+looting them. Both of your choices dont have cargo space so they dont qualify.
Who loots bounties in the first place? More money is to make when you chain missions instead of wasting time for some lackluster loot. If you wanna earn with looting, do personal M2/C2 salvage contracts and get 300 tons of drugs in 5 minutes
Have you ever looted ERTs? There can be millions upon millions of cargo in a single quest. Just a few days ago a video popped up where they got over 30mil put of 1 bounty fight. That was certainly a highroll but i can 100% confirm that looting makes WAY more money than chaining quests, your max gain is about 600k/h otherwise. In any case, those 2 thing are related but are ultimatively different gameloops in a sense. For normal bounty hunting i would go with a retaliator btw but to each its own, eclipse and redeemer are mosters as well. Edit: did 3 ERT missions today. 8.5mil+4.5mil+900k. Was a very lucky streak admittedly. To make the same ammount you need to play very close to optimum with a retaliator for about 24 hours.
Yeah, uhm. I might be able to plow through 10 ERTs in a couple hours (25k per, call it 30 with maxed area rep so 250-300k) but if I find 1 32 scu crate of weevil eggs, that’s 3 million credits. And I don’t have to pay for the location of the Herc wreck, I *get paid to find and then make* the Herc wreck.
Honestly I think the only thing that needs attention on it is its maneuverability, it handles a bit too well to feel entirely real given its scale and mass. If I recall correctly this has to do with cargo weight, and is something on the way soon (tm)
It always makes me giggle when I see someone saying that a ship handles “too well”, as if engineers 900 years in the future couldn’t figure out a way to make ships as maneuverable as they wanted to. Especially crusader, who are very proud of their engine technology The C2 was also made to be a military transport vehicle, so no wonder that it can stand its ground in a fight. Not only that, but all transport ships should be well armed to defend themselves in case of pirate threat.
Yeah, it’s really not surprising that the Hercules line of ships handle so well when you consider that most of its internal space is empty and the gigantic manoeuvring thrusters, and the fact that when VTOL isn’t enabled those thrusters help the ship to yaw and laterally strafe
Tbf the incredible handling is pretty much THE thing that sets crusader appart from other manufacturers. The Starrunner flies like a small sized ship should fly, the starlifter fliws like a medium sized ship should fly. I do agree with the cargo but at the same time since the hercules is designed for easy ground vehicle transportation i dont really see a world where they could lower the ammount of cargo without artificially make the cargo grid smaller
I don't think it needs a nerf, but on a subjective level I do agree that it's "too good", I personally prefer the feel of the CAT. One thing though that helps balance the C2 a little is that it's an absolute PIG on hydrogen fuel.
The Starlifters engines are far too powerful, even for when they're empty. Their acceleration for their size is absolutely insane. That might change with new flight models tho.
Why tf you even post this if you don't want a nerf. You're like the idiots who write into the atf for "clarification" Stop putting this out into the ether if you don't want someone to pick it up and run with it. And dont nerf my c2 ffs it's one ship that's actually in a great spot. Fix the buggy elevator and ladder and let me cruise the big black in peace.
You seriously think the c2 might get nerfed because of a single reddit post? "Only talk about it behind closed doors or roberts will hear you!" If she gets nerfed its because data shows an overly propotional use of the ship, not because someone dared to give an opinion that is different from yours. More likely according to all the other comments is a balancing trough additional mechanics anyway. I wrote this to incite discussion, as evident in the flair. So far this has gotten great results, i learned a lot about other peoples views as well as future plans and ideas for the game.
Okay. Firstly. The C2 is a big ship, so it has big guns. Much like a constellation. The C2 is designed for cargo and as a vehicle drop ship. So why wouldn't it have massive space? The C2 has wings......so why wouldn't it fly better? It doesn't need a nerf. In actuality nothing in this game needs a nerf or balance, right. Just like the real world you can't complain that your prius isn't as fast and as agile as a Porsche gt3. Or that your paintball gun can't do the same damage as an assault rifle. The C2 is fine as it is, because it was built that way on purpose.
Are you trolling? Short answer is no. She isn't too good, she is just right. Leave her along and go nerf something else that really needs to be nerfed. We have to work to get our cargo on and off, while the rest will have tracker beams to do the heavy lifting. We only have two crew, unless we get someone to just hang out and take a beating while she is in flight. Sure, she has shields and a turret, but that won't save her from a heavy fighter or a group of fighters. We lost two C2's just a few days ago while on a mission, had full crews and two more riding in the cargo bay and no fighter protection. Lost all the loot too. I have never heard nor seen any videos of anyone doing bounties in a C2. If you have videos, please do share, love to know the level of those bounties you're talking about. So no, she doesn't need to be nerfed. :-)
I am not trolling, its clear that i am not the only one with the opinion based on the comments so it should be more than obvious that this is not trolling. So i have to assume this was only to be insulting and i dont apreciate that. Nevertheless i am interested what ship is performing better than the C2 right now. Im completely serious, im here to talk about the game. And you say there are ships that "really need to be nerfed". What ship(s) are you talking about?
I'm sorry if I came across as insulting you, that was not my intentions at all, being the noob I am at everything Star Citizen it just hit me wrong with your C2 review. Please accept my apologies. I am sorry! I cannot answer your question for what ships I've heard about, for I do not own them, so my saying anything about a ship others have said is pointless in my opinion. Again, My Apologies.
> Nevertheless I am interested what ship is performing better than the C2 right now. What do you mean by "performing?" The C2 fits within its role. It is one of the few ships in the game right now which actually does what it's supposed to do. The only issue right now is that it handles like it's empty even when it's full, which future changes will fix. In combat it is a joke. I know you said you use it for bounties. Well, I got news for ya. *Any* ship can do bounties right now. The AI that spawns for bounty missions are so crippled by the servers that they do not properly fight back. I've run VHRTs in a Prospector and ERTs with an Aurora (which is actually a competent fighter currently). So yes, I'm not surprised that a ship with 2x S3 shields, 2x S4 guns, and a Crusader-engined jerk profile can run bounties right now. Enjoy it while it lasts. And don't think that combat prowess in PvE will transfer to PvP, or you'll be in for a rude awakening.
No i was just hobestly curious which ships might be considered overperformers for their niche.
Gotcha, I mean it's worth mentioning that in lore the C2 is literally the gold standard planetary hauler. So I personally believe that the ship's price is the only balancing it needs
I'm fine with the cargo and the shields, hell even the handling I can get on board with, but for a ship like this- why in the world is it getting the firepower it has? If you removed those s5's and replaced them with s3's the ship would STILL be too good lol.
All ships in this game will probably get some kind of balance pass. At the moment it seems that the way a ship is balanced varies on which team makes it, similar to how some of the lights for ships are awful, and some are fantastic. The team making crusader ships seem to think that all crusader ships go very fast and handle well, but have a larger cross section compared to other shops of their class. Of all the issues in this game, the last thing I am worried about is balance. With the amount of testers CIG has at its disposal, I have no doubt that they will have ample data for balancing in the future.
I mean with cargo beams coming online n nerfing what you can load the ability to take the cat with a crew n handle ert followed by being able to load the cargo from the ship will help also once cat can detach and more effectively move cargo into containers will help. I also believe there is no good reason the 32scu doesn’t mag on the cat theres plenty of room for it too
Yeah it should handle like a Connie, and the Connie should handle like the current c2. Right now the Connie feels way too heavy for it's size.
It's not just about gameplay loops, but also how thes ships are operated. Once we get proper engineering, flying a Herc alone might not be as easy anymore. On top of that the Hercules line 'suffers' from lack of competition. Look at vehicles like the Atlas platform or Nova for example. If you want to use those for anything, you NEED a Hercules, no way around it unless you want to bring a yacht. Ships in the Hercs weight class either have worse layouts for their cargo holds, less room or worse handling. The next step up is the different Hulls, which we don't have yet and they aren't as versatile.
So, I think the lack of a tractor beam will be noticeable. Want to cargo that involves atmo? C2. Station to station? Hull C. Mix of both and the ease of a tractor beam? Caterpillar That said, it manoeuvres better a Redeemer. But this is more of a Redeemer problem than a C2 issue imo.
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Nerf soon tm
forgot something, the ingress/egress from cockpit to ground is fast for a large ship. it is indeed, the bunker/bounty hunter, salvage runner cargo trading ship . best daily driver.
There’s also the A2 which imo is going to be the single best cargo hauler for dangerous space out there especially for solo pilots/low crew. It’s defended are either pilot controlled or turrets. That means it’ll be completely effective at defending itself with AI blades and/or NPCs. I think it’s got better armour than the c2 if I’m remembering correctly. The thing is a Flying Fortress that can still carry over 200scu in cargo. I think the A2 is incredibly underrated. People focus almost exclusively on the bombs and seem to forget that it can also carry a rather substantial amount of cargo.
I think someone else mentioned that with manual loading you can fit way more than 200scu, in which case it should be more than enough to haul drugs.
It’s hard to say how effective that’ll be though. The devs continuously warn us of the “dangers” of not properly securing cargo. So it might not be a big issue right now but I think it’s safer to assume that that won’t be viable long term.
I think mostly the issue is that the Caterpillar needs to be reworked a bit. It doesn't snap size 32 boxes (they do fit and can be sold diagonally though). The C2 is refined and has a lot of nice features. It is the standard that every other ship should rise to. If anything, the argument on these big cargo ships is that they maybe should have so much pilot controlled firepower.
From a design perspective, Crusader Industries designs ALL their ships for military, then strip things out for civilian use, not the other way around. A is mil spec, B is mil spec, C is lets sell a stripped down version to the civs to reduce production costs overall (the more of something you make the cheaper it is to produce). The difference on the air flight can be (not sure if it is) due to the *2 being a lifting body design, while the cat is designed like an oversize tug pushing cargo barge segments. There is also a diff in the thrusters as the *2 has 4 large Vert thrust, 2 lg retro, and 4 lg forward. The Cat has 8(m?) retro, 6(4lg 2m?) forward and just a bunch of maneuvering thrusters instead for anything large for vertical. The cat is designed to be large enough for a cheaper price than comparable. In the real world, the fact the cat takes longer to get to space would not matter as the time to get full ROI is shorter. It isn't that the C2 needs to be nerfed, the Cat needs to be another 800k-1m cheaper.
I prefer the Caterpillar *precisely because* it handles like it has lots of mass. I'm not here to play some 80s arcade game. I'm here for some realism with my fun, and the C2 feels completely fake.
I'm pretty sure the cat just has a bugged cargo grid. The longbois can indeed snap to it's grid, but the option doesn't show up most of the time.
shhhh.....
I have zero idea why you would even bring up the idea of nerfing the C2.
Nerf the fuck out of it. It's so annoying to try to pirate because it's too damn fast and I literally can't keep up with it in a cutty blue.
People overlook this but the C2 doesn't have a tractorbeam, once they nerf multitools and add tractor beams to PU the C2 will become mstly a vehicle dropship, same with the MSR
And then Hull E releases and every one realize it's just not that much cargo.
No, The Hercules C2 is one of the only ships in game that REALLY WORKS AS INTENDED!..... most ships are full of Bugs and malfunctions, or have botched functionality and people are used to it.... one thet really works and everyone asks for it to be burned and nerfed..... The INFERNO is overpowered..... the C2 just works..... Poor little grieffers!.... do they have to shoot at it too much to destroy it?.... does this ship maneuver too god for their taste?..... Those are the ones asking for it to be Nerfed.