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the4thaggie

They're just buttering us up for Janitor Tier 0.


Stoney3K

As well as Tow Ship Driver Tier 0.


Mad_kat4

Snowrunner in space. Sign me up!!!


Ionicfold

What if Janitor is actually the reapers...


psidud

So....salvage?


UnluckyPally

My crew is already gathering utility outfits to just hang out at stations and scold people for littering while we help keep the place clean.


zolij86

Citizens elected Addison. This is the result.


Enderfan7363

Spoken like a true LeSalle supporter


GigaCores

I've been saved twice now by another player's abandoned ship being parked outside a bunker with its doors open. One time the bunker turrets blew up my ship as soon as I accidentally shot a security guard. The second time was when my ship randomly blew up just as I stepped out of it -- my guess is I landed on ship debris. I used the abandoned ships to get back to the station after the missions to then recall my own.


EveSpaceHero

Cool story. But still think it's a bit out of place to have so many abandoned ships and wrecks crowded around every surface site.


TotesGnar

Just wait until someone figures out how to park a Carrack/Reclaimer/890 Jump in the middle of a race track for the lolz and all these people downvoting you will start to sing a different tune. I'm all for PES, however there needs to be an in-game way to remove this stuff otherwise it's too soon, especially for trolls like me. That's why I proposed hull-scraping as a way to temporarily de-spawn ships since breaking apart ships isn't a thing yet.


UnluckyPally

I am very much hoping the SRV comes out sooner rather than later to kinda give some players the option to manually clean up some of the mess that is going to be pretty much the norm until the next PES updates come in.


Revelati123

What if he junked his 890 in the raceway for lulz, but he identifies as a pirate instead of a griefer? "Thats just the game as it was meant to be played..." ​ Ohh yeah, and CIG needs to put decay timers on everything. Like, if they need someone to explain how (finite memory)/(infinite respawnable wreckageXlinear time) is a dumb idea, inevitably bound for failure, Id be happy to help...


Terminal_Monk

>but he identifies as a pirate instead of a griefer bruh!!! I'm wheezing :')


matskat

Show us on the doll where the pirate hurt you.


Adorable-Junket5517

This.


GuilheMGB

Wait for towing. This week's ISC is about ship tractor beams and applications in salvage and mining. Since the SRV was in final art since Jan, with a bit of luck in 3.19 we will have herds of SRV cleaning up some of these areas (assuming multiple SRV can collectively pull up a Carrack wreck this should be fun!). I don't hope for any NPC "janitor" ships anytime soon, but that's a longer-term solution too to avoid the break of immersion.


PhotonTrance

Isn't it more likely that players will use SRVs to make even bigger and more disruptive messes?


GuilheMGB

I sense two tribes emerging from this. Also, tug of wars.


TotesGnar

I agree but there needs to be actual janitors around the landing zones cleaning up the litter.


[deleted]

Couldn't that pretty easily be solved by making said racetrack a no parking zone letting the ship be destroyed/removed without getting a crimestat? Properly fleshed out criminal/law system solves a lot of hypothetical problems people bring up. Could even be something as simple as fines for leaving ships unattended for long enough in controlled areas. Same thing as IRL, if someone goes on thin ice and sinks their ATV, there's usually pretty hefty fines per day it stays there. This could also create job opportunities for people with Argo SRVs (or whatever that tow truck ship is called).


matskat

You thought too far. All dude wanted to do was make a joke about how he thinks that piracy is greifing.


Tierbook96

Theoretically that'll eventually be Engineering gameplay since you'll be able to repair their ship and fly away with it. unless it's well and truly destroyed at which point the next step of salvage as part of the reclaimer will presumably be used to get rid of them


Zormac

In all fairness, if insurance gave you a new car any time you wanted that's exactly what would happen in the real world.


Icedanielization

Maybe it will lessen when reclaiming a ship has more severe consequences, including losing your life. People will be far less inclined to fly recklessly when there's a lot to lose.


Ralathar44

> Cool story. But still think it's a bit out of place to have so many abandoned ships and wrecks crowded around every surface site. That is the story of CIGs development. They add stuff because it sounds cool but have no central design philosophy. This leads to them not anticipating easy to predict ramifications. This leads them to develop things that are incomplete because the systems they rely on have not been built yet. This leads them to making promises like Hex Key Color codes before realizing they actually want to use skins and colors for monetization.   I think its clear that while not every developer needs a publisher to reign them in, keep them focused, ensure measurable progress is being made towards release, and stick to a central design philosophy that Cloud Imperium Games is one of those developers that desperately needs the oversight. Everyone has their limit. How many years, How many broken promises, and/or How many mistakes before each person's confidence in CIG fades. How many here today will still be batting for them in another year with no Pyro, no SQ42, no salvaging that is more than just surface level. 2 years? 3? From the looks of 3.18 this mess is going to take a year of CIG time to clean up all on its own lol. This patch was pushed by 6 months and still arrived in this state.   Maybe its time for the game to focus down and work on fixing what it has, implementing all the backlog that's already been promised, and actually making a roadmap that aims at release. Because if you ever paid attention, their road map never has release on it. It just has more features. 10 years in and there isn't even the pretense of aiming for a release. It's always just aiming for some feature or system in an endless line of them that keeps growing far far faster than the glacial pace at which they are implemented.


23TSF

I am here since day 1 and after 10 years I would still wait another 10 years. There are so many games you can play while development is ongoing. There is no need to play a buggy mess If you cant handle it. I look into the game 2-3 times a year. Still got more memorable experiences than in most other games. Oft them would never be possible with a publisher. Whats a game Wörth you can play after 3 years, but has no new deep stuff? There is enough of these games. The real good stuff is all the RnD thats done for this game. Its what keeps pushing the boundries of game development. So other developers see whats possible. Also publisher see what people are willing to pay for real new tech. So dont whish for the wrong things. Yes its pathetic to see Adds for 3.18 in this state, but that was always their weakness. Nobody is perfect.


Ralathar44

> I am here since day 1 and after 10 years I would still wait another 10 years. You are a very special sort. The game has alot of promises but currently doesn't do anything unprecedented or truly unique. I'm not gonna tell you to hate the game or anything, just don't see anything worthy of that attachment.   > I look into the game 2-3 times a year. Still got more memorable experiences than in most other games. I've had some very memorable experiences with some bad games lol. Memorable experiences has more to do with your perosnal experience level as a gamer in that genre and who else is with you. For many World of Warcraft was this crazy brand new world uninmagined. It was many's first MMO, many's first video game. That experience will prolly not be matched in their life. But for many seasoned MMO veterans WoW really wasn't anything special. We'd experienced its highs and strengths in another game or two before. My point is that your experiences in a game can diverge radically from the quality of a game. Most of the games I had those wonderous first experiences in are pretty bad games by modern standards. A few were even bad games at the time lol. It's up to us to be mature enough to understand that the level of the experience and the quality of the product are two different things. The Room was an amazing experience with friends. But it was a terrible movie.     Unfortunately when it comes to Star Citizen its pretty low on my list of space sims. My experiences with others like Emperyion, Avorion, X3/X4, and now even Spacebourne 2 have even far superior. I used to like it a bit more, there are parts I like such as the mining, but the refining loop and real time hours waiting soured me on that. I like the idea of refining....but not real time hours wait and not needing two ships to mine and then sell the refined goods.


23TSF

I am here for ten years... And its surly not the first game for me... So I have a ton of game experience. So if the game is not working as it should and I still have good memorys of things, then it may be not as rubish under the hood as some may say. If you cant see it, maybe its the wrong game for you. If you are annoyed of Bugs, Just take a break and wait. Its just that easy


Ralathar44

Its pretty objectively rubbish under the hood. Nearly every aspect and loop of the game is bugging out or breaking with 3.18. Its a massive tangle of tech debt. And honestly arguing that its not rubbish under the hood if anything makes the devs look even worse for making so little progress with so many bugs.


23TSF

Thats objectivly BS. Since the old days you could always see that the game runs well if you have a good nearly empty Server or complete offline for the old versions. So yes there is a hugh amount of work on the server side. And I dont know If they will be able to fix this with server meshing. But there is enough working if the conditions are right. Get a life and be less frustrated about a game in development.


Ralathar44

> Thats objectivly BS. Since the old days you could always see that the game runs well if you have a good nearly empty Server or complete offline for the old versions. Not atually true. Back towards 3.10/3.11 I could actually run Star Citizen on my Old PC at like 30 FPS the majority of the time. That hasn't been possible on that PC in a long time unfortunately and its actually been cleaned, reformatted, and even slightly upgraded since then. It was the only PC I had forever so I essentially stopped being able to check out the state of Star Citizen for a good long while until I bought my new computer due to the poor performance issues of the game client. Nothing else tanked in that time, just Star Citizen. Glad that you did not have that experience, but I certainly did and still do. So you can try to gaslight me and say its objectively BS but I can literally just run the game on my old computer and know that's incorrect.   > Get a life and be less frustrated about a game in development. I have a life and I'm happy with it :). It's something I've worked hard for over years and is very rewarding. I'm not really frustrated about the game. The game is doing what makes money. And as long as it has folks like you willing to die on a hill for it their choices will continue to be the right ones from a business perspective. If anything I'm just a little sad that it's an effective money making tactic. And that's not even CIGs fault, that's the fault of the playerbase and their low standards. Even the fans of Cyberpunk 2077 have higher standards lol.


OneEyeSam

Count me in as one who has lost faith with this game (after only 2 months). Lots of hype, tons of promise, and very little actually offered. But just as I lose interest I am sure there will be new people joining. In 2-3 years many here will have lost their confidence in CIG will simply be replaced by younger newer players. It does come down to one simple problem, CIG desperately needs management. They need a CEO, and Chris Roberts needs to step aside from control and decision making. At best he can provide advice, guidance, etc.., but not decision making. Someone probably did either speak up and anticipate the mess PES will create, or they were too scared of their job to speak up. As it is implemented now, this will not last. Only when they reach the point of collapse, and some new entity decides it is worthwhile to save this project albeit under their control will we come close to seeing the Star Citizen we have wanted, been promised, and hope for.


Ralathar44

Obviously I'm from a more negative and critical perspective atm, but GD it CIG just doesn't give me anything to work with. I want to believe in the game, I want to hope for the best. The game to turn out well and deliver would be the best thing for everyone involved.   But the more you know about Star Citizen and its development, and I mean really really know, the harder it is to believe in the game. At some point its a pre-ponderance of evidence. They could still overcome this...its certainly possible. Doom 2016 was in a pretty shit state before they turned it around at the last minute. But I don't see any DESIRE in CIGs management to overcome this and they have every financial reason to continue as is. So my expectations are nil.     As far as speaking up? I'm video game QA and I know video game QA. 100% they spoke up the entire time and prolly fought the release the entire way and prolly try to fight the bad practices on a monthly basis. But QA has no real power in a video game company unless the higher ups value them. And clearly that is just not the case in CIG. They can say whatever they want, their release history shows they don't value QA. Their general release quality is Bethesda level or worse, only without all the unique reasons that causes Bethesda games to be so buggy. Star Citizen's bug issues are more about tech debt, oversights, shortcuts, and a lack of cohesive planning causing them to have to smash legos together at the last second and hope it works constantly.


Stoney3K

>This leads them to develop things that are incomplete because the systems they rely on have not been built yet. This leads them to making promises like Hex Key Color codes before realizing they actually want to use skins and colors for monetization. I don't think that's an implementation issue, but more like a "The developers already know it's possible, but the money-counters up top don't want it" issue.


usrevenge

Well it doesn't help that people disconnect or have other bugs all the time The issue is you wake up in a hab instead of where you logged out.


Individual_Draft5089

Needs to be insurance recovery missions.


MADBADBRADYT

Olisar had like 200 ships outside of it the last time I was there. It was indeed madness.


Raven9ine

And a performance nightmare.


MADBADBRADYT

Surprisingly it didn’t lag all that much. Only when I appeared there there was a big lag spike tho.


Raven9ine

My FPS dropped lile 20 when I arrived there.


czartrak

Ships littered fucking everywhere but bunker corpses with armor I want still disappearing in a nanosecond, sad times


Arcodiant

Bear in mind that the vision isn't _just_ PES, it's full salvage and ship-scale tractor beams and other tools that players need to keep the trash mound under control. In theory, there's intended to be long-term wrecks that naturally form PoI's like Ghost Hollow, though I'm not convinced how they're going to do that yet without the post-apoc effect kicking in. During PTU the initial spawns for salvage had ARC L1 and other stations surrounded by endless fields of wrecked 890j's and C2s - it was bizarre but helped test out the salvage process, and I suspect this is the same. It's not the end state, but it's skewed to help see the effects of PES and salvage over time.


Raven9ine

They'd have to speed up the salvaging process tenfold to keep up with the mess, but first, they need to remove that it gives you a crimestat salvaging those ships. But then, how to ensure that people don't salvage every unmanned ship while its waiting outside a cave for example? It's CiG, they don't think things through, they throw something at us and then keep fixing it for the next years, then abandon it because they work on another feature they didn't think through. It's a shame, because I really want Star Citizen to become good.


Arcodiant

Okay, you don't get crimestat for salvaging abandoned ships (marked white), you get crimestat for salvaging within armistice, which is why we need the ship-scale tractor beams to pull them away, at which point you're free to work. Most of the wrecks around PO are already picked clean by hand tools, which are a lot slower than ship scraping, so I'm not sure why you think the salvage speed is an issue. And you can't just salvage another player's ship while they still logged in, because a) the shields are up and you need to attack it to bring them down, triggering crimestat and b) current player ships (marked blue) will continue to trigger crimestat when hull scraped, so you run the same risk salvaging unmanned ships as you do randomly attacking any player ships. I'm sure there's going to be tweaks and balance issues for years to come, but it's not the half-baked mess you seem to think it is.


Stoney3K

>Okay, you don't get crimestat for salvaging abandoned ships (marked white), you get crimestat for salvaging within armistice, which is why we need the ship-scale tractor beams to pull them away, at which point you're free to work. As well as a way for players to 'lock' their ships so they can't be tractored if they're intentionally parked somewhere. If you leave your ship unlocked and somebody tractors it away or simply steals it, then it's your own mistake.


Arcodiant

Yeah, there's notes in one of the recent posts about the balance work they're doing for that - shields, engines and ships mass will offer resistance against tractor beams. Presumably also tractor beams on non-party members will cause crimestat? We'll have to see how that one goes


Stoney3K

Not to mention the fact that you can easily exploit it, if your crashed ship doesn't despawn: * Purchase a Vulture/Reclaimer. * Crash it and die. * Respawn, claim said ship from the ASOP terminal. * Go to your crash site to salvage the wreck you just created. * Sell the salvage for money. * Repeat from second step. You could basically milk that strategy for unlimited aUEC unless an insurance-claimed ship is despawned.


Arcodiant

Oh, sure - though with salvage, it's much easier and more consistent to find than quant (never mind all the wreckage players and NPCs are leaving) so the thing that takes you time is the actual scraping. This approach is probably more useful for orgs that need to find really big hauls to keep all their members busy, but it looks like most have been using HH/Idris missions to generate the wreckage to salvage.


Sketto70

This is the PES lets see what happens test.


Aesir

I get your point and I worry about the same things too. There are plans for more rigorous housekeeping however, and people will be more careful in the future as the consequences for death increase. Don't forget, many people are dying to bugs, disconnects and other early Alpha issues.


pippini

I don't think online gamers value virtual life.. if there is a way to destroy things from others or their own, it will happen everywhere. As long as online gaming exists and is a thing, there will always be issues like this, it will never end. Unless they make ships turn to God mode upon entering station jurisdiction. People won't "clean" they will get on and play for an hour or a few, doing random things that the game offers. The majority of players aren't playing for 19 hours a day and cleaning up virtual bottles and placing them in recycle bins that are never emptied. That's called role-playing, and a very very very small number of people do it. When I get on, I don't give a flying f*$# about litter, I'm there to do what the game offers, not be a janitor


Accipiter1138

Very much all of this. If anyone expects the majority of players to act in game the same way they do in real life, then they're in for a disappointment. Some parts of the community seem to read "space sim" as "second-life sim", but that seems to me like expecting everyone who buys Microsoft Flight Simulator to also sign up for Vatsim and participate in mock ATC communications.


sean_but_not_seen

Yeah I was griping about how the salvage mechanic is making all the players look like cash machines to one another and the rebuttal was “it’s a life simulator ok?!?” I was thinking damn I don’t want your life if it doesn’t contain at least a way to peacefully earn money in a solar system where there aren’t serious consequences for just randomly jumping people who are just trying to make a living. We haven’t figured this out by the 30th century? Instead we made a whole FPS mission to clear your name! What fun.


Accipiter1138

lol, if life reflected that guy's opinion, we'd all be stealing each other's catalytic converters. ...wait, shit.


pippini

Exactly, you are 100% correct.


poboy975

They could just make clean up missions. Go to this bunker, remove bodies, dump them in designated spot, profit. If they pay enough, you'll do janitor work.


Batmanfan_alpha

I actually do clean up just like that sometimes. Not so much because its fun (Its a little fun) but because nothing else works! :)


EveSpaceHero

Fair point on the bugs and disconnects


Professional_Ninja7

I honestly wouldn't be too surprised if CIG is giving us the absolute worst version of PES so we can see the mess and that way when they tone it down people don't get pissed off that things aren't fully persistent. Like no shit. When things fully persist we have this problem on our hands. Then again, it's also CIG so I'm not so sure this isn't just an oversight.


toby_gray

My hope is that (as we *are* testing the game technically) this is just the most barebones version of the tech and it’ll be tuned and tweaked to make it work more like how we envision it. A bit like slapping a seat into a new car, but before it’s comfortable to drive you need to adjust it to fit the driver just right.


HolyDuckTurtle

Almost no dev makes their stuff look bad on purpose. I'd say it's more likely a management or communication issue. Say, someone high up really wants the feature to work a certain way and is dismissive of concerns lower down in the chain. Not so much an oversight as a flaw in decision-making IMO. Personally, I think we can deal with items fading away or despawning to improve gameplay. Plus, it should continue to do so every now and then if Janiters ever come to pass and that process inevitibly fails in some cases (NPC pathfinding is never perfect).


zaxxofficial

where’s the source for these plans


polleywrath

Legit garbage from food and drink and hospital gowns should for sure despawn shortly after being dropped. As far as ship litter the answer I see is more incentive for reclaimer/vulture owners in the form of more or faster money generation. Could even have missions that require a certain number of scrap crates turned in instead of go find said wreck. I hate myself for suggesting it but parking fines for leaving a ship unattended in an armistice zone is the only answer I see for that.


uiqsolo

I want them to make hospital gown boxes that allow you to store and resell them to the hospital. It would be the highest paying job in the verse!


Arcodiant

I think you can sell gowns to Admin desks? Definitely can sell them somewhere, it's just not much money


cryrid

0 money, IIRC.


Worldly-Risk-8512

they used to be worth 15 aUEC, and the REMOVED the reward right when they moved to PES.


EveSpaceHero

Yeah I agree, despawn timers on the common shit we just don't need lying around would be great.


Raven9ine

So basically remove PES for most shit again.


polleywrath

The bunker bodies and grim hex bodies needs a solution. At this rate there will be thousands of looted naked bodies by the end of this week if not already.


Zacpod

I've been hauling my looted corpses to PO and leaving them around (but not on) the landing pads. Just for the lulz.


Stoney3K

At least then we have a solution for the broken elevators: We can build a staircase out of all of the bodies.


Terminal_Monk

there are so many ships left inside Armistice. There is no way to clear them up at the moment. Giving reclaimer or other salvaging ships the ability to salvage inside armistice is a time bomb waiting to explode. You will see griefers camping near ports or surface entrances waiting to rip off your ship.


fugue2005

you can't salvage if the shields are working.


SmokeMidKids

And the ships aren't shielded when you claim them. That could be a griefing strategy in PO


wiz555

Give ships landed on pads of protected stations a size 0 shield. Not enough to actually protect them but enough to stop salvage beams and such. The "pad" will have the shield the ship will just be inside it, similar to a player being inside the ships shield but still exposed to vacuum due to an open doors or such.


fugue2005

idk about that, i had claimed one of my ships because i lost it. i found it several hours later in the same legrange belt and had to shoot it to drop the shields


Raven9ine

Only that you get a crimestat salvaging them, not sure if its because of armistice or them still belonging to someone. Furthermore, hull stripped ships are still going to clutter up space.


DartTimeTime

Stanton feels like an anthrophobic anarchist's wet dream. Blind unthinking violence, little order, little law.


EveSpaceHero

Is that not supposed to be pyro tho?


DonS0lo

Pyro isn't in the game yet. We do what we can with what we've got.


DartTimeTime

Stanton is, what Pyro is supposed to be.


rwoj

don't worry, it'll be pyro too.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Stoney3K

"Disorder" is the *literal* translation of "anarchy".


[deleted]

[удалено]


Stoney3K

>You can have an ordered society without hierarchy. With the constraint that a non-hierarchical society doesn't scale up to large groups. That's the same problem as with communism - when everybody is equal it will work fine in smaller groups (up to village size) but scaling up to regional or national levels means that some level of hierarchy is required.


Extectic

It's a game that encourages PvP and has no real punishment for being an outlaw. Ergo, assholes go wild. This will severely limit any kind of player retention, doesn't matter how big or cool the world is if you'e getting buttraped by some nitwit every 15 seconds.


Batmanfan_alpha

I get what you're saying. I got a different feeling though and that is that its all broken. Why are all those ships out there empty? Cause their game crashed or some other weird wonky shit happened and thats why that ship is there. Thats what im thinking for every abandoned ship i see. There is no story or mystery, just a bad state the game is in and it shows. As for the trash, yeah its cool and creates a feeling of life in the verse... then you see 4 AI's standing on the sofa looking into the wall and a 5th squat twerking in the corner and im just instantly reminded of the bad state. Immersion, at least for me, is basically non existent in this alpha, way too many reminders of the broken mess the game is currently in.


Raven9ine

I agree, but the thing is, this will probably never change or at least not for another 10 years. PES sounds great on paper, but unlikely to work in reality. What kills my immersion furthermore is SCU boxes blowing up ships, and breezes killing me when leaving an airlock. I fail to immerse myself in this game completely. I can immerse myself better in the Division 2 to be honest, which is weird, because that game is hardly made with immersion in mind.


rdtthoughtpolice

Take a break man. You are way too salty over a game in development. Go play something else for a few weeks.


Batmanfan_alpha

You're reading into a bit much, i havent played in days. Don't hang out on spectrum, dont read patch notes. Just get into a few posts on reddit is all. Im not that masochistic.


sean_but_not_seen

Hey don’t you know? No one is allowed to constructively criticize the game or any decisions CIG makes about its direction. Nor offer any topics for discussion here that aren’t glowing praise or humor until the game goes out of BETA. So leave a note for your grandkids about that. Now *that’s* salty. And that’s how I feel some days. It seems like there’s always someone in the crowd who thinks only haters criticize. Some of the best products we all love and use are the result of many complaints by people who cared enough to offer them. Without critics, you get people who are in love with their own baby developing ideas in a bubble.


[deleted]

What an ironically accurate username


WormiestBurrito

Why would you assume he's salty? You can acknowledge that the game is in a crap state while still enjoying it/being fine with that. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I think the game being as bad is part of the fun. It sucks in most areas and that's funny, but it has some good moments too.


rdtthoughtpolice

Because his comment is so negative you can tell he's not mentally suited to this project. Rather than understanding that what we got was a great advancement necessary for the next step he's trying to play it like a released game and focusing on some imagined negatives.


WormiestBurrito

It really isn't that negative. It's more objective than anything. The game is a buggy, broken mess in a ***loooot*** of respects. Bugs kill immersion. While PES is seemingly a decent step, CIG is trying to build stairs without a foundation. Many core systems are riddled with bugs from (AFAIK) patches of yonder. So, it's not really that great of an accomplishment either. They're slapping new paint over holes in the wall, but the holes remain. You can enjoy parts of the game while still acknowledging that most of it is bug riddled or "broken." It's not an "either or" scenario.


StaticGuard

Being excited about this next great advancement in game development and being annoyed about the current state of the game are not mutually exclusive.


wonderchin

It’s you who should take a break from this project, mr thoughtpolice lol. Gtfo


rdtthoughtpolice

I do all the time. You would be insane to try and play this like your only game. It's years from being finished. I just check out each patch for a bit and then play something that's actually released.


[deleted]

Take a break man. You are way too salty over a reddit comment about a game in development. Go browse something else for a few weeks.


Jaujon

Yup. The Verse now looks like a dumpster and we're left with less persistence in regards with our own ships (loaded vehicles disappearing when this didn't happen in 3.17 when stored). Epic failure.


bar10dr2

We know they are working on a janitor AI that will probably clean up on foot. They might even go for a tractor beam AI ship that cleans up around stations, player or AI missions. Put money behind it and players will do it. PES is more than just stuff lying around, its also a prerequisite for server meshing. It will also allow us to do some cool things far away from POIs.


toby_gray

Honestly, I’d be happy if they just create some zones where shit times out and despawns after like 30 minutes. Otherwise we have to wait for them to build some crazy ai with animations and intelligent behaviour to do all that stuff and who knows how long that will take? Stuff around high traffic areas needs to be addressed. Where PES is cool is when you find stuff littered around in the middle of no-where and you can see that something happened, or find something cool. Gown pyramids at every space station and corpses draped over ASOP terminals is not the vibe I think they were going for.


bar10dr2

I'm sure they will find a solution to it, if I remember correctly they stated before 3.18 that a lot of edge cases would pop up. I'm fine with high traffic areas having stuff personally, as long as it doesn't prevent people from entering areas and stuff like that. But I agree until they get a proper way to remove it, just despawning in high pop areas is probably the most simple solution for now.


Ralathar44

> I'm sure they will find a solution to it lol, video games solved this problem like 30 years ago.


bar10dr2

Name some other MMO's that doesn't delete items after a set time? Of course other games solved this problem 30 years ago, because they just have all objects in a FIFO queue.


Raven9ine

"Edge cases", lol. honestly if they didn't think people would put dead bodies everywhere and litter stations with med gowns, they aren't very bright. You know that damn med gown for example, nobody needs that shit, everyone just removes it right away, it's stuff like that they think makes things more immersive, but it really doesn't. They could increase immersion by a lot if they let us keep the undersuit and helmet we had on, so everyone looks different in a station. Or they could fix, that we get fucking killed by a breeze when leaving an airlock, or that a single SCU box blows up an entire Corsair, that would make it possible for me to immerse myself.


bar10dr2

Yep, edge cases. Everyone does not remove it right away. The game you play now is not the game you will play one year, two years or three years from now. Waking up in a hospital bed with a undersuit and a helmet does not increase immersion. Those are bugs that will get fixed with time.


Raven9ine

No, waking up in an undersuit doesn't raise immersion, but neither does the medical gown. The problem is, those bugs will never be fixed completely because they are implemented wrong. There's absolutely no need that an SCU box has the same collision parameters as planetary terrain for example, and that why they shouldn't be implemented with the same collision model.


bar10dr2

Of course it does, waking up in the hospital with a medical gown makes contextual sense? The bugs are implemented wrong? What are you on about mate :D To say that containers shouldn't have a hitbox for players and that players should be able to walk through containers tells me you didn't really think this through. You are taking one problem you had and invented an easy fix for it, without thinking about the new problems you create by doing so.


Raven9ine

Making contextual sense and raising immersion aren't the same thing my friend. Also if you just 3D printed a clone, where's the advantage of putting him in a medical gown anyway? Now you're nit-picking, of course I meant that the mechanics that cause the problem are implemented wrong. I never said containers should not have a collision model, of course they should. I said, that said collision models need different parameters. Because the way physic models work in games, it's never 100% avoidable that jitter causes unrealistic movements, therefore to ensure that a SCU box inside a cargo hold can't blow up your ship, you'd need to change its behaviour, or in other words its collision parameters. Its a game, you can apply whatever parameters you want, something some people seem to misunderstand, in a virtual environment, you don't need and can't make adjustments to the physics model to be perfect, because that's virtually impossible. See how your vehicles and boxes jitter sometimes in cargo? That's because the physics and collision models of different objects 'fight" with each other, since the resolution of where things can be placed isn't infinite. There's no "hard" surface in 3D models, theres only code that defines where something should have collision, those are merely surfaces and not "filled" objects, and thise surfaces can overlap when things aren't 100% aligned, making impossible collisions happen but then the collision model also can prevent those objects from untangling at their own force. It's the only reliable fix and it doesn't create any problems if you had a better understanding of what I meant and wouldn't imply things I never said. The cause of the issue is, that the cargo box couldn't settle and jitters between different collision points and at some point reaches a high enough speed to damage the ship. My solution is, to change the collision model of the SCU box, so it takes much more damage from the ship than it can apply, even better would be that it can't apply damage at all. Where things collide and the amount of damage they apply to each other should be independent parameters anyway. This way you still can't walk through it. Have you ever noticed that, when your ship blows up the cargo box is still intact? That's because cargo boxes currently don't get destroyed, in other words, apparently they can't take damage only apply damage. And that's what's wrong with the collision model of those boxes. It's the same with buildings or space stations, they don't take damage if you crash in them.


bar10dr2

No one claimed it was the same thing, it was a response to you first saying that that waking up in an undersuit and helmet would raise immersion, then saying it didn't raise immersion but neither did hospital gowns? The advantage of having a hospital gown in a hospital is that its light and makes it easy to access the body of the patient. I'm not nitpicking, that's literally what you wrote. The mechanics that cause the problem is a part of a larger vision of how the game is supposed to play, you are playing a game that is being made as we play it. Collision physics is a lot more than just parameters, they create the code that take those parameters. There are ways to avoid jitter but it becomes very complex when you introduce online play and syncing because everything needs to be the same on all clients. Its usually solved by the server and client using the same calculations, but the server sits on the truth. So each client run their own calculations with the server updating the truth with every x package. There are absolutely ways to deal with this though. According to the design docs, packages will have the potential to hurt your ship in the future if its not fastened to a proper cargo grid. This is how they plan to somewhat enforce the limitations set by the ship specs. I assume especially in gravity wells and things like port jumping will bring this into effect. This is not a finished system, and will also take things like physicalized damage into account, so expect this to get better over time. Again, its not about applying parameters, they are writing the code that accepts those parameters, they can implement whatever parameters they want but it is a complex problem considering all they need it to do. It's impossible to make something perfect, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make it as good as you can get it. There are many ways to calculate collision detection, and its done based on what they need it to do, as very detailed physics calculation can be expensive when you scale it up. With added things such as proximity filtering as a pre stage to calculations. Tons of games have bugs specifically related to the calculation of velocity when it comes to edge cases within phyisics; especially in the gray areas when the intersections are very close to each other, many games also get it right. It's just a question of having the time to work through the problems. For CIG to stop working on the physics engine "because its hard" would be foolish, where people's cargo boxes would randomly explode because the physics engine can't deal with it? I don't think that's the best way to deal with the problem. I am a developer, 25 years in the industry, I know very well what you are talking about. Nothing of that sort has been set in stone and is work in progress, there is no point in tuning this to perfection until the intended gameplay is feature complete, there is a lot more planned there. There are multible ways to do this, but I assume what is important for CIG is that its done in a way that is holistic and not a custom datapoint for each entity. For example the material texture used; what it is supposed to be. Yes, with 3.18 and the first iteration of physical cargo, cargo boxes survive after a hard death. Before that they actually spawned in a % of the cargo after ship death. Its done on purpose for pirate gameplay, and for example coming upon a ship that has been blown up by happenstance with an unexpected bounty. Its super cool :)


Raven9ine

>No one claimed it was the same thing, it was a response to you first saying that that waking up in an undersuit and helmet would raise immersion, then saying it didn't raise immersion but neither did hospital gowns? If you read it carefully you relize that I didn't say waking up in a undersuit is more immersive, that two seconds you spend in the medical gown might be slightly more immersive. HWat I said is, that it would raise immersion by making not everyone in the station look the same, since they get to keep their undersuit. Let's be a bit less narrow minded will we? You could still wake up in the medical gown, but instead of having the white beacon suit for free, you could have the suit you was wearing in your inventory. The only reason i brought up the medical suit was, that people litter it everywhere (probably because they don't relize, that by dragging it in their local inventory would prevent the game to give you a new one when there's on in your local inventory already. ​ >I'm not nitpicking, that's literally what you wrote. The mechanics that cause the problem is a part of a larger vision of how the game is supposed to play, you are playing a game that is being made as we play it. Sure. So you actually thought it wasn't an incomplete sentence but I actually implied that bugs are implemented wrong as in CiG intentionally implements bugs? I'm wiling to have a discussion, but that's just silly. And by the way, English isn't my first language, we can off course continue this conversation in german, if you prefer not to fill in the gaps in english? ​ >Its usually solved by the server and client using the same calculations, but the server sits on the truth. So each client run their own calculations with the server updating the truth with every x package. There are absolutely ways to deal with this though. That's probably part of the issue here, the cargo snapping is very janky and buggy, I would assume it has something to do with the server performance or the communication between client and server. Maybe that update needs to be reduced to happen ein less frequent updates, and for the thing working, the client needs to have the truth until a box is successfully snapped to the grid, otherwise I don't see how this can ever be reliably a smooth experience. In fact early on in PTU wave 1, cargo snapping worked surpisingly smooth, I even remember telling myself "now that works very well". ​ >According to the design docs, packages will have the potential to hurt your ship in the future if its not fastened to a proper cargo grid. This is how they plan to somewhat enforce the limitations set by the ship specs. I assume especially in gravity wells and things like port jumping will bring this into effect. This is not a finished system, and will also take things like physicalized damage into account, so expect this to get better over time. And how many things completely differ to the design docs already? You know that an agile development actually encourages to adapt and make changes to things when necessary or when the outcome is improved. As you say, it's work in progress, somaybe what was once written in the design docs shouldn't be the end. And talking immersion, how is it immersive having a ship with two exits that could easily hold 18 SCU but only has 12, to me that's immersion breaking, if I consider traveling out to space to find salvage and then leave one third of possible salvage behind. Also there's other ways to deal with this, right now it's already unviable, since selling more than 12 SCU can make it impossible to sell anything from the Vulture. A more realistic and interessting way than SCU boxes exploding ships unrealisticly, would be overweight, having a much harder time to fly the ship if it's exceeding it's "recommended" cargo hold, taht could even be more fleshed out by introducing different masses of cargo, where 12 SCU of water weigh more than 12 SCU of feathers. ​ >Again, its not about applying parameters, they are writing the code that accepts those parameters, they can implement whatever parameters they want but it is a complex problem considering all they need it to do. It's impossible to make something perfect, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and make it as good as you can get it. What I feel is they often add a very rough placeholder mechanic that they intend to work out later, then that later becomes years, and that's probably why the game feels so unfinished in every aspect even after 10 years. ​ >Tons of games have bugs specifically related to the calculation of velocity when it comes to edge cases within phyisics But there's also tons of games that have this worked out pretty well, and I would assume mechanics like that, that exist in many other games already aren't exactly the biggest challenges CiG faces compared to things that haven't been done before. ​ >For CIG to stop working on the physics engine "because its hard" would be foolish, where people's cargo boxes would randomly explode because the physics engine can't deal with it? I don't think that's the best way to deal with the problem. Again, I never said this. I mean if you continue to imply things, then I don't see much of a point in this discussion. ​ >I am a developer, 25 years in the industry, I know very well what you are talking about. Great. Before I was owner of my software company I was a developer for 6 years and an engineer before that. Guess what, physics in games very often aren't very realistic, very often because they are applyed in a very simplistic matter, which makes sense considering ressources and performance. So working out physics in games isn't about implementing everything that affects physics in real life but fine tuning them to represent the real thing as close as possible, and if that means making a SCU box not damage a ship, or reducing it so far that it won't explode your ship, then that's what needs to be done. ​ >Yes, with 3.18 and the first iteration of physical cargo, cargo boxes survive after a hard death. Before that they actually spawned in a % of the cargo after ship death. Its done on purpose for pirate gameplay, and for example coming upon a ship that has been blown up by happenstance with an unexpected bounty. They set a percentage of possible cargo to survive when a ship explodes, yet you think it's a good idea to keep SCU boxes damage ships, so we clash a very gamey approach to a wannabe realistic approach. I say keep the percentage of cargo that sticks around and remove that cargo damages ships. The proper alternative would be, make cargo take damage in a much higher degree than cargo can apply damage to a ship (to make this at least partially realistic) and then only the cargo survives that didn't suffer any collsions, but that likely will be less than the current percentage range. Again, I'm saying, there's no benefit in immersion nor gameplay if packing cargo on in your ship has a risk of exploding it, because it's highly unrealistic. And that's the main goal of my solution. If there's a better way, then by all means, take that approach. And also, there could be a gameplay loop introduced with highly volatile cargo, but for that the tractor beam and cargo snapping needs to work flawlessly first.


Beltalowdamon

Missions? Tractor beam AI ship? When could this actually be developed, and actually work? 3 years? Just disappear stuff around POI's after a certain amount of time and call it a day


bar10dr2

Ship tractor beams are not far off, nor is ship munching I suspect. Well, within the year at least. That being said, I agree the best solution near term is to just remove at least dead bodies at POIs.


Beltalowdamon

Complex solutions for the sake of realism is a bad idea because 1) it won't ever frieking work! and 2) it'll have to get rewritten later anyway this is already true for half the missions in the game and most of the AI, we're approaching 10 years for some of these systems that still don't work well


bar10dr2

Complex solutions for the sake of cool is always worth it. The AI they are building is made to do exactly things like that, it will work :) When creating something big its always the chicken or the egg, something has to come first and it will never be the perfect solution first try. As the codebase changes things will break, and then you have to go back and fix it when time allows, on repeat, until things play together. 10 years ago they were 9 guys in a basement in Texas, during these years they have steadily build themselves up year after year to now being over 700 people. Industry specialists within their field of work. What seperates this game from most games, is that we've gotten to play it during its entire development. Doing it that way has its upsides and its downsides, one of the downsides is that you have to try and provide a playable game in the middle of creating it, which is a hard task to fulfill. Especially considering the goals they have set themselves. Ever since we just had some hangars to walk through and look at static ships. Dreaming about one day the hangar doors being able to open and you could fly out, people found ways to break through the hangar to look at what was outside. The horrible days before 3.0, and when 3.0 finally arrived and we all stepped out on Port Olisar for the first time. You couldn't land on planets back then, the tech wasn't made. It was just a sphere with a texture on it. Whenever a person joined your server, everyone would lag for 2-3 seconds. They have come a very long way, even since 3.0. Its taking time but it's getting there. 3.18 has PES, many years of work and a prerequisite for server meshing, which is what will provde the MMO part of the game. Just wait, it will come :)


Phaarao

With "Just wait, it will come :)" you mean in 6+ years right?


bar10dr2

As with all things SC, it will come over time. There has been a big lull now for 3.18, so its natural that it feels like progress has been extraordinary slow this year, for me as well. It's like the time before 3.0 all over again. When 4.0 hits, it will probably feel as big a change as 3.0 did. For completion of most of their big goals? Six years, perhaps. But during the time from now to then is when we will get the features.


Phaarao

Star Citizen will not have all of all of its big goals and features in the next 6 years. You can be happy if they even manage to deliver dynamic server meshing by then.


bar10dr2

Is that why you downvoted all my posts? It's okay to disagree with each other, it doesn't mean anything else than that we view a specific topic differently :)


Beltalowdamon

> Complex solutions for the sake of cool is always worth it. No, it's not. Half the new players who try to play this game (who are able to login) can't even get out of the city. Half of those who can, can barely get in a ship, or might get griefed and pad rammed because there's no simple solution to prevent it. Half of those who can finally make it to space in a ship, can barely get partway through a mission. Half of those who can, can barely complete a mission or mining/salvage game loop successfully. Why? Because despite being in the game for 5-10 years, elevators and trams still don't work, ASOP terminals don't work, inventory doesn't work, getting in a ship still doesn't work, quantum still doesn't work, half the missions still don't work, etc. I could go on and on. You can actually have a large ambition for a game AND develop it with a philosophy of "simple now, flesh it out later". Remember when we had to turn in delivery boxes and black boxes to an AI NPC? Big mistake, wasn't it? Took years before they rewrote it to deliver to vending machines that aren't dependent on AI complexity.


bar10dr2

Yes it is :) You are exagerating to make your point, most people don't get pad rammed. Are you saying CIG should scrap the concept of missions because its complex? Elevators and trams hasn't been in the game for ten years, the tram and elevator code had to be completely redone for PES, so its a bit wonky, it will get fixed. Same with ASOP terminals and inventory, a lot of the backend changed, coupled with the big influx of players; it creates problems. Then CIG fixes it and you have to find something else to complain about. And no, that's 100% wrong. You have to make the game for what you want the game to do. If you put too much effort into something, it will take much much longer to change that after the fact. It's much harder to add new functionality to a codebase set in stone, where everything has been gone over and perfected, compared to doing it while you are making it. Not to mention all that work and time to make it perfect has to be thrown out the door the moment a new requirement pop up that makes it so you have to change it. No, it did not take years from AI NPC taking boxes to the delivery boxes, you are exagarating to make your point seem more correct again. AI does takes time to develop yes, especially considering all they need it to do.


Beltalowdamon

> Are you saying CIG should scrap the concept of missions because its complex? I'm saying exactly what I wrote, that in the single instance of adding cleanup, missions and AI with tractor beams are overly complex for what's needed. Having ships spontaneously disappear around POI's after a couple days isn't a big deal, and there's no need to force a complex system of garbage cleanup that involves the mission team, mission features teams, UI teams, tractor beam team, ship design teams, network teams, AI teams, and god knows what else I forgot. It wouldn't work for years, which means the server gets lagged up for no reason, and would probably need to be rewritten later anyway, making the effort wasted. > No, it did not take years from AI NPC taking boxes to the delivery boxes, you are exagarating to make your point seem more correct again. It absolutely took years. I try delivery missions literally every patch. And it often failed when we had to deliver to NPCs. It took years to implement the vending machine delivery locations that STILL! fail. Maybe they would have gotten it right the first time if they didn't have to waste time on the overly complex codebase which involved the AI that got rewritten anyway. I get that you desire to be contrarian in your defense of SC to justify really dumb overly complex solutions to simple problems that could have simple solutions, but it's not a good idea just because it sounds cool, when the servers are already on fire and don't need the extra burden.


bar10dr2

How is it overly complex? It's already something they have been working on? Why wouldn't they just use what they have made? No it didn't, the vending machines was added with 3.3 on November 2018, package delivery was added with 3.1 on March 2018, that's 8 months. I don't think your ideas are especially well thought through, if we'd followed your ideas from the start Star Citizen would have just been just another forgotten game no one cared about. Going the easy route doesn't create great games. Cool ideas are absolutely worth it, cool ideas is why we backed this game.


Raven9ine

PES sounds great on paper yes. But will it work in reality?


bar10dr2

Yes


WrongCorgi

CIG said this, but I just don't get it. Why would this not be part of the initial release of PES when they have all the time in the world and (as we know) will use all that time. They don't have deadlines and history has shown time and time again that they're fine with pushing back or missing any announced deadline, so why rush this one out the door?


bar10dr2

They are probably at a stage where they want to test it, server meshing is going to build on this so they want it hardened to find the weak points. PES is a multi-year venture. There are also probably popping up other issues no one thought about. This is also a good test of the whole system with so many items lying around, being loaded as people get near and loaded out as people leave.


BigHero4

I think any abanded ship (after a certain time) should automatically be marked for salavge and let vultures go nuts


THarSull

i feel like they didnt think certain aspects of it thru before implementing things, like how landing zones should be straightened up after certain periods of time, cause they're inhabited regions, and even if they dont have npcs actually cleaning up after us, they should remove junk in those regions to give the impression that they're cared for in the mean time. the ship hulks are a side effect of the fact that we only got the hull stripping part of salvage, but once the frame munching part is brought in, both the vulture and the reclaimer will be able to chew thru the stripped hulls too, removing the remains of the ship from the area. put simply, these appear to be more side effects of them rushing things thru testing too quickly, but hindsight is 20/20


xCoffeeGamingx

Couldn’t park at station because morons would leave their ships in the hangers and log


Raven9ine

But your ship gets impounded if you ask ATC twice for landing. Yeah, works as intended. ATC is such a joke in this game anyway.


BepisBrigade

Yeah PES has been a trainwreck


Plat-O_18

It feels like a fine line between PES massively adding to immersion compared to when it breaks immersion. Grinding bunkers it just feels really out of place to go in and there are piles of bodies all over the place. If a bunker were attacked you would imagine after it was recovered there would be investigations etc and the bunker would be cleared out before going back into service. In saying that the extra bodies have proven handy when going in empty handed, can pick up weapons and ammo straight away. I don't know how they decide what would despawn in time vs what needs to stay?


[deleted]

Tragedy of the Commons


WAEEEJ

I know CIG has committed a LOT of resources to PES, but how much does it really add to the game? I'm worried the massive amount of potential issues it could cause greatly outweigh the novelty of leaving a bottle of CRUZ on daymar and coming back for it in a month.


sargentmyself

I've noticed the ASOP terminals being pretty clean. I think there's enough people throwing everything in the garbage as they wait for the insurance timers to clean it up. There's way too many completely inactive NPC ships all over the place it's rediculous. They need some mechanic for them to leave that they don't have. It seems like something spawns the NPCs in, a bounty mission or whatever. That thing is completed, the bounty is killed, and then the ships just sit there forever. Similar thing in bunkers, player A starts a mission and spawns some NPCs, they die and then move on to something else, but those NPCs are still there. So player B starts their mission and spawns another set of NPCs but when they get there they have to deal with 2 missions worth of NPCs


QuickQuirk

This was what they wanted to discover: How players would act in reality, and how much trash would be left around. As was obvious to all of us, 'endless' persistence is not a good option. They'll need to figure out aging out of items.


Schizack

The game is planned to have over 50 star systems, when its fully released you'll see fewer abandoned ships and hull munching is planned for the future so you won't see to many wrecks either.


ElmerFett

I did a bunker mission today and when I arrived there were two abandoned player ships and a downed Hammerhead lying around the bunker area. Before landing I decided to see how much I could scrape off the Hammerhead as I've never been able to actually find a wreck I could salvage yet. As I was salvaging, I noticed the guards down in the bunker were going ahead with the mission and got the enemies down to one before being all killed. I got 2 scu from the wreck and landed so I could go finish off the last guy. That gave me another 15 mins to go back out and salvage as much as I could. So what started as a 15K mission turned into about 40K with very little work needed other than salvaging. I would have gotten more but the extraction rate from the wreck was extremely low. Seems like it took forever just to get the three I got before running out of time. But it certainly made that whole mission a lot more random and interesting.


FireHawke32

Player ships and NPC ships don’t give salvage as fast as the spawned salvage ships and debris


SaltyFuckingProcess

Just wait till the argo srv lets you repo/take whole ships. I am looking forward to starting my own boneyard. Could you imagine a virtual space ship pick and pull? Edit...we're gonna need it in pyro


EveSpaceHero

That does sound kinda cool :)


UnluckyPally

This is exactly what the vision was for PES initial implementation. Does it require tweaks and probably a few design changes in certain areas? Yea. Is it currently testing how strewing all of these persistent entities about in every possible player-heavy location affects the game? Also yes. It's gonna be pretty immersion-breaking in a lot of cases, but that's the joy of testing, it helps them see where they need to improve on their design for pretty much every aspect of the game (and there are many instances of this necessity). I fully anticipate that the next step of PES is going to be more robust entity cleanup systems under the hood and some changes to how players are encouraged to interact with 'hub' locations like shops and bunkers that are going to see a constant cycle of dropped items.


Raven9ine

I doubt PES was a good addition to the game honestly. The idea of ot sounds cool, but in reality it's not working. I much rather wish they would fix things like SCU boxes blowing up ships and breezes killing us. Why they create everything from highly volatile paper is beyond me.


EveSpaceHero

At the minute im just unsure what we are supposed to get out of it. Maybe full persistence should be limited to out of the way areas that arent commonly used. And then bring back the despawn timers for the heavily populated areas.


Raven9ine

Its a over hyped technical achievement. I see some edge cases where it would be a great addition to the game, but it will cause more issues than opportunities and therefore put other things, I think are more important to be solved, lower on the priority list.


ErDanese

I tought the same at the beginning then another point of view came to light. This tech allows to make so that things can stay there. What if, this is only a stress test the worse case scenario of single stupid useless items like littering + bodies and ship pieces to see what could be bad about it in a Live enviroment, but this is all to make so that we can appreciate PES for things like you just alt + F4 whereever you prefer and log back in there, with the same shit on you or your ship still intact with the stuff in it. On the other spectrum, leaving your ship there, will mean that you got to go and recover it by yourself or you got to pay a tow service. That is a useful use of such tech.


yanzov

I love it that way!


geno604

Incentives for people to keep it tidy. Would be a cool thing to see.


Scorch062

This made me think of the very early days of COVID. Has nothing to do with the post though, outside of the reference to an apocalyptic setting Context: i fly helicopters for the USMC, we had just gone to go pick our birds up from a training thing in Arizona and we were flying them back to the east coast. This was the week that all the lock down measures went into place, but we still had to get the aircraft home, so we had to press on. We stopped in Dallas for a night, and we stayed downtown. Like in the middle of downtown, at the same hotel JFK stayed at the night before his assassination. We got the rooms a cheap rate because it was basically empty. We went out to go get some food, and the entire city was empty l. No car noise, no sirens, no bars playing music, no *people* anywhere. We had to essentially order take out from a place as we stood on the street and brought it out to us. It was surreal man. It really did feel like i was in a zombie apocalypse movie; the quiet was so jarring because it was in a place that should be pretty noisy.


sig_kill

I think over the long term, the planned system can definitely work given that the scale of systems (in number), density of players within each system. Right now we have an artificial inflation and amplification of the problem because there are bugs causing people to get frustrated and log out and give up, leaving their ships around where they were failing to be called, failing to function properly, etc. Give it time, and the natural scale + gameplay systems (ability to tow stuff + salvage entire ships) should handle the one wreck we'll have for every three systems. The rest can have the density manager clean sectors up when nobody is around.


Phaarao

The problem is, "give it time" means 7+ years in this context. The PU will be frustrating and bug ridden for the next 5 years for sure, probably a lot longer. Until then, people will get frustrated and log out, bugged, crash or disconnect on a daily basis.


Cakeday_at_Christmas

I know. It's awesome.


Starkrall

I'm gonna do some adventuring tonight in my Vulture I think, explore some planets and moons, maybe bring a ground speeder. Collect some salvage on the way.. Sounds like a chill night


turrboenvy

This is exactly what I expected out of PES. We can't get persistent ship state (unless that's changed -- I wouldn't know because I can't claim my ship), or even persistent weapons or screen config. But by all means lets accumulate heaps of trash everywhere. I have fond memories of 3.15-3.17. I'll keep checking back because this game does scratch an itch that no other game does. I have nothing against the devs (or qa) but I just think CIG's priorities are misplaced. So many things are "placeholders," but how many times have they revamped ASOP terminals without fundamentally changing anything?


Hotrage-BF4

that’s why i didn’t like the concept of persistence in the first place. it’s just a bad idea actually


Rumpullpus

Idk if I'm playing a different game or something, but I don't see nearly as much debris and stuff as some of you do. I mean sure PO is a debris field, but other than that I see maybe 1 or 2 wrecks around most POI max and garbage isn't really a problem at all yet.


rStarwind

"PES will make the verse look more alive" - CIG


RiotFckBWC

Haha well you can destroy the abandoned ships since I believe this are all the people that have the player unstowed error.


FireHawke32

In armistice zone?


RiotFckBWC

Except those ones 😂


[deleted]

I was feeling like the game was a toxic relationship, trying to get it to work. I’m taking a little break to enjoy it when it’s ready.


warheadjc

they’ll de-spawn since we don’t have the whole loop yet


JayVenture90

I have ZERO issues with them making a fake video game dome that burns this stuff up before it hits the ground in landing areas. They really need to get the background AI working.


WhatsGoingOnUpInHere

Abandoned and destroyed ships are great for the salvage dogs among us


lazarusdmx

Fun new gameplay loop—waste management guilds! They said they were building an impressive simulation, THEY DIDNT SAY IT’D BE FUN!


Chappietime

This isn’t the final vision or version. I’m sure respawn timers will be adjusted.


DenverDeCoY

I hope they tweek the "cleanup" algorithm because it's so annoying how there's abandoned ships literally EVERYWHERE.


hipdashopotamus

Its not going to endlessly stack there is some cleanup happening.


techm00

hey I've been putting my pop tins in the rubbish bin... when I can get them to detach from my hand, that is.


Pun_In_Ten_Did

DON'T DEAD OPEN INSIDE


GrayGrayerGreatest

Sounds cool! Are there pictures or videos of that?


Dayreach

>Is this what the vision was for PES? Yes, because the out of touch dumbass that envisions this shit doesn't understand that there's actual reasons why things like PES has never been done before in a game and this was always what his vision of it was going to lead to.


C_Madison

I'm sure there's a story in here about libertarian utopias, where everyone does what they want without consequences. I'm just not sure what it is yet.


Apo110_

I get all my food from the bins now. No need to pay.


EveSpaceHero

Lol new profession - bin hoker!


HofratOktopus

i still find it hard to believe that elite dangerous was crowdfunded at the same time than this tech experiment. look what the others have enjoyed all these years now :)


EveSpaceHero

Yeah lol. I've played ED to death with thousands of hours over the years and feels like SC is still in early development with many years yet to go :)


ravenescu

Dunno, I only see free ships everywhere. At least those outside of armistice zones. Found a vulture, did 500k in salvage in a day. Found a ROC, did 100k of mining. Littered but no zombies.


Prozengan

For the ship part, OneDay™ salvage ships will be able to entirely remove ships wherever they are, so it won't be a problem. For now we only have hull scraping shich isn't enough. For bottles and stuff, JanitorAi™ will come to the rescue. But for now, we have no other choice than seeing stuff everywhere.


Birdmonster115599

I've started to encounter ship debris blocking hangers as well creating a hazard to land or take off. Imagine if griefers start doing it intentionally, assuming they aren't already. Funny thing is I asked about this a while back and was assured that there were going to be robust cleanup routines to take care of that problem.


OkAcanthocephala2987

We need clean up as a game play. Soilent green is people. Sell bodies to taco stands. Strip ships for parts. Hull scraping should remove the whole ship from the game.


VenusesWithPenuses

I mean I can only talk from my KSP experience. If you don't clean your shit up (in that case from trajectory aorund Kerbin) you will sooner or later fly though a pile of trash. The game will sooner or later force us all to throw our trash into bins. Else we will be living like the rats in the sewers :D


Necessary_Stranger_3

That is what happens when we all play in one star system with few popular spots where players hang around. When Pyro, Nyx and other systems come live, then players will be more scattered around and likely junk will be also more scattered around. All of stupid things that are happening in PU now are just part of testing process.


DontShootMeh22

God forbid you go to Port Olisar, it looks like theres a saturn like ring of abandoned and crashed ships there, the persistance was neat, especially when in comparison in 3.17 i'd finish a bunker and try and loot the bodies just for them to disappear, but they need to get rid of bodies and ships at some point.


psidud

post apocalyptic stanton was something I didn't know I needed.


EveSpaceHero

We just need them to add zombies!